Re: IBM Forms Design Manual

[jmfbahciv]

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> bitsavers has an excellent IBM manual on Forms Design:
> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/generalInfo/C20-8078_Fo
rm_and_Card_Design_1961.pdf
>
> Some of the tips and suggestions for good design are very applicable
> to today, and I think some web and report designers could use some
> training into the basics as this manual covers. While we don't use
> punch cards, we still have input source documents and screens.
>
> From the manual:
> To insure efficient processing, cards and forms should
> be designed specifically for the application in which
> they are to be used. In doing this, it is necessary to:
> • Know thoroughly the procedure and the machines
> to be used.
> • Understand the reports to be prepared and know
> the use to which each will be put.
> • Know the· rules of good card and form design.
> The application of these must be accompanied by ingenuity,
> common sense and experience.
> This manual is divided into two sections - the first
> devoted to form design and the second to card design.
> Each is intended to serve as a guide and in no way replaces
> the valuable assistance that is available through
> your local IBM representative

Where did the IBM rep get his training?

/BAH

[Charles Richmond]

"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004CAD...@aca2e98a.ipt.aol.com...

I don't know where the IBM rep got his training... but Thomas Watson, Sr.
got his salesman training at NCR.

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Sep 29, 2:33 pm, "Charles Richmond" <numer...@aquaporin4.com>
wrote:

> > Where did the IBM rep get his training?
>
> I don't know where the IBM rep got his training... but Thomas Watson, Sr.
> got his salesman training at NCR.

IBM customer representatives were very thoroughly trained, much more
so than reps in the competition. As IBM grew larger, the reps were
specialized in industrial segments--our rep specializedi n hospital
systems.

IBM also had its rep report back to HQ customer requests for any
enhancements. These were evaluated and added to products if
appropriate. For computers, IBM encouraged customers to trade
information and experiences.

The folks I dealt with from Univac, NCR, GE, and Wang were awfully
nice and hard working, but simply weren't as good as the IBM people.

(FWIW, I liked visiting Univac offices much more than IBM offices
because of the informality, but in terms of getting the job done, IBM
did it best.)

A simple example: When IBM gave a presentation or training, they were
very well prepared. The projector was in place ready to go,
everything needed was on hand. In contrast, the competitors tended to
need to set up or fix the projector or search for things at the last
minute. The IBM machines worked as they were supposed to, but often
the competitors' machines did not, even in a demo.

(This was all years ago, I don't know the current situation.)

[jmfbahciv]

The topic was forms design. I was wondering how or where that knowledge
was transferred to another person. There was some forms design taught
to secretaries but not much.

This is a topic I know I don't know about. So I can't ask the single
question which would start a conversation so I could learn about it.

/BAH

[Dan Espen]

Back in the day, forms design was one of those subjects developers
should have known about.

The worst sin was creating a card layout that did not correspond in
sequence to the form the source data was on. It would drive the data
entry person nuts.

I created many forms for data entry.

Best practice was to use separators in the fill in areas like this:

Customer number: |_|_|_|_|_|
Data of order: |_|_/_|_/_|_|

I don't recall exactly, but I think each cell was supposed to be 1/4
inch wide.

--
Dan Espen

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<4faab3e6-dc05-4724...@b8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,

And, of course, the customers paid well for this, and, for most it was
a great bargain. Businesses did *not* want to be in the computer
support business even for themselves.

--
This space unintentionally left blank.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Sep 30, 10:44 am, jmfbahciv <See.ab...@aol.com> wrote:
> Charles Richmond wrote:
> > "jmfbahciv" <See.ab...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:PM0004CAD...@aca2e98a.ipt.aol.com...

> >> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> >>> bitsavers has an excellent IBM manual on Forms Design:
>

> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/generalInfo/C20-...

Textbooks on systems analysis had sections on proper forms design.

But I suppose much of it was passed on by word of mouth from mentors
to trainees, or orally by experienced teachers in classes.

Long ago in college and on the job I learned that to develop an output
form, one needs to know who will receive that form and how they will
utilize it. Will the information on that form truly help them, or
will the people still maintain a manual 3x5 index card file in their
desk?

I have seen booklets explaining elements of good forms design, such as
various typefaces to use for field names, instructions, etc.

As to input forms, common sense things like clear instructions and
enough space to handwrite in the data, and the form arranged so that
it's easy for keypunchers to pick it up (suprisingly not all
programmers considered that.)


I don't know if the following story is true:

Someone in a computer center generated a fictious report and
distributed it to all the managers. Not one called up and asked why
they were getting it. After a few months the report was
discontinued. At that point, several managers called up to complain
they didn't receive the report.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Sep 30, 11:43 am, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote:

> I don't recall exactly, but I think each cell was supposed to be 1/4
> inch wide.

I did some forms design using special drafting pens for offset
reproduction. They leaked on my good clothes and could not be washed
out.

Anyway, the forms were then typeset using the IBM Selectric composer.

That went to a lot of trouble to make a high quality form but it was
going to have only a limited press run.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Sep 30, 1:03 pm, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:

> And, of course, the customers paid well for this, and, for most it was
> a great bargain. Businesses did *not* want to be in the computer
> support business even for themselves.

Some large customers developed their own internal support staff, and
some small customers needed very little support. Under the old rental
business model, customers got the full support whether they wanted or
needed it or not. It was similar to the Bell System renting
equipment--it came with full support that not all customers wanted or
needed.

In the 1970s some customers opted for third party leasing, where some
company bought hardware and leased it out to customers. Any support
or software desired from IBM was paid for a la carte. My former
employer did this and it was a good deal. For whatever reason, most
of the software was still free (maybe 'cause it was old--360-DOS Rel
26 and S/360 applications in 1976?) and IBM services weren't too
expensive. We purchased maintenance which was excellent.

For Bell System stuff, many Bell account executives simply got jobs
with large firms doing the same thing they did before. I'm not sure
if that was better or worse for the customers. I do know many
independetly built PBXs and other systems didn't work so well in those
early days. Some administrative work (eg dialing table maintenance)
Bell used to do centrally did not get done out in the field by
independent agents.

[Peter Flass]

I believe we used to have the forms companies do the design for us for
free in return for a guaranteed order.

--
Pete

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Oct 1, 7:34 am, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:

> I believe we used to have the forms companies do the design for us for
> free in return for a guaranteed order.

You mean the companies like Moore Business Forms and such for output
paper?

We used to prize the metal rulers we got from them, marked in tenths
of inch. Very helpful in reading dumps. The flowchart template also
had tenths, but it was of flimsy plastic and not as good to use as
solid metal that didn't flex.

Generally, I think internal input source document forms were designed
in house.

[Charlie Gibbs]

In article
<e13ac894-e649-4ae4...@n9g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com (hancock4) writes:

> I don't know if the following story is true:
>
> Someone in a computer center generated a fictious report and
> distributed it to all the managers. Not one called up and asked
> why they were getting it. After a few months the report was
> discontinued. At that point, several managers called up to
> complain they didn't receive the report.

That's a good one.

On the other hand, we did spend a lot of time and paper running
something like 18 copies of a weekly inventory report - even
after we started putting terminals on desks so the users could
call up more comprehensive information on demand. We decided to
quietly stop generating the paper report and see who complained.
Although there was still a legitimate reason to print a few copies
(which we re-instated), our paper usage (and operator time) went
_way_ down.

At another (more bureaucratic) shop it took a _lot_ of convincing
to wean a manager off a 1000-page weekly report, when all he ever
did was look at the bottom line and then throw the whole thing out.
But some people consider it a status symbol to have a 1000-page
report run just for them.

--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

[Peter Flass]

On 10/1/2012 11:54 AM, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Oct 1, 7:34 am, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I believe we used to have the forms companies do the design for us for
>> free in return for a guaranteed order.
>
> You mean the companies like Moore Business Forms and such for output
> paper?

Yes, I thought of Moore, but was trying to come up with one or two other
names.

>
> We used to prize the metal rulers we got from them, marked in tenths
> of inch. Very helpful in reading dumps.

I still have a couple of those. I use them a lot, but now a type gague
is handier for looking at laser-printed stuff.


--
Pete

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Oct 1, 12:43 pm, "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> At another (more bureaucratic) shop it took a _lot_ of convincing
> to wean a manager off a 1000-page weekly report, when all he ever
> did was look at the bottom line and then throw the whole thing out.
> But some people consider it a status symbol to have a 1000-page
> report run just for them.

Actually, a lot of people considered it a status symbol to get a 1,000
page report, and guarded their symbols carefully.

[Joe Morris]

Hancock4 wrote:
>Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:

>> I believe we used to have the forms companies do the design for us for
>> free in return for a guaranteed order.

>You mean the companies like Moore Business Forms and such for output
>paper?

>We used to prize the metal rulers we got from them, marked in tenths
>of inch. Very helpful in reading dumps. The flowchart template also
>had tenths, but it was of flimsy plastic and not as good to use as
>solid metal that didn't flex.

...and at most shops one took great care to keep the rulers locked up to
prevent them from disappearing. One of our programmers (who could stuff
more function into a 4K 1401 than anyone else I ever met) brought in a set
of metal stamps one day and stamped the owner's initials into all of our
forms rulers. I've still got mine 45 years later.

Incidentally, those metal rulers were excellent tools for opening some
popular models of locked filing cabinets; every month or so I could expect
one of the secretaries to come around and say that someone had locked a
cabinet and nobody could find the keys.

Joe

[Joe Morris]

"Peter Flass" <Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 10/1/2012 11:54 AM, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> On Oct 1, 7:34 am, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:

>>> I believe we used to have the forms companies do the design for us for
>>> free in return for a guaranteed order.

>> You mean the companies like Moore Business Forms and such for output
>> paper?

> Yes, I thought of Moore, but was trying to come up with one or two other
> names.

UARCO was another big supplier. It was bought by Standard Register in 1997.

I can't think of any other supplier my shops used other than the el cheapo
crap that the purchasing office would occasionally buy despite its failure
to meet even the most basic quality criteria.

Joe

[Quadibloc]

On Sep 30, 8:23 pm, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> Anyway, the forms were then typeset using the IBM Selectric composer.

An ideal tool for designing forms, as it used a point that was exactly
1/72", so that the form could align in a typewriter.

John Savard

[jmfbahciv]

Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> In article
> <e13ac894-e649-4ae4...@n9g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com (hancock4) writes:
>
>> I don't know if the following story is true:
>>
>> Someone in a computer center generated a fictious report and
>> distributed it to all the managers. Not one called up and asked
>> why they were getting it. After a few months the report was
>> discontinued. At that point, several managers called up to
>> complain they didn't receive the report.
>
> That's a good one.
>
> On the other hand, we did spend a lot of time and paper running
> something like 18 copies of a weekly inventory report - even
> after we started putting terminals on desks so the users could
> call up more comprehensive information on demand. We decided to
> quietly stop generating the paper report and see who complained.
> Although there was still a legitimate reason to print a few copies
> (which we re-instated), our paper usage (and operator time) went
> _way_ down.
>
> At another (more bureaucratic) shop it took a _lot_ of convincing
> to wean a manager off a 1000-page weekly report, when all he ever
> did was look at the bottom line and then throw the whole thing out.
> But some people consider it a status symbol to have a 1000-page
> report run just for them.
>

I'd have talked to his secretary and have her retrieve his copy.
Then you could have just replaced the last page of that copy.

/BAH

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Oct 1, 9:56 pm, "Joe Morris" <j.c.mor...@verizon.net> wrote:

> > Yes, I thought of Moore, but was trying to come up with one or two other
> > names.
>
> UARCO was another big supplier.  It was bought by Standard Register in 1997.
>
> I can't think of any other supplier my shops used other than the el cheapo
> crap that the purchasing office would occasionally buy despite its failure
> to meet even the most basic quality criteria.

It's been a long time since I was involved with pre-printed output
forms. They've gone to high speed printers they use a huge roll of
paper. They also use generic return-envelopes and check stock so the
number of forms needed to be inventoried are far less, especially
important for checks.

At my old job, when they printed checks on the line printer, they
bypassed the spooler and printed directly; with operator input from
the console. I don't believe they even print checks anymore, but
rather use electronic funds transmission for direct deposit.

[Patrick Scheible]

"To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem."

-- Patrick

[Walter Bushell]

In article <864nmc1...@zipcon.net>,

Hey, I would of thought that getting a big report would be a negative.
Upper echelon people read executive summaries, underlings read the
whole thing and report exceptions.

[Charlie Gibbs]

In article <proto-4F9651....@news.panix.com>, pr...@panix.com

(Walter Bushell) writes:

> In article <864nmc1...@zipcon.net>,
> Patrick Scheible <k...@zipcon.net> wrote:
>
>> hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>
>>> On Oct 1, 12:43 pm, "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> At another (more bureaucratic) shop it took a _lot_ of convincing
>>>> to wean a manager off a 1000-page weekly report, when all he ever
>>>> did was look at the bottom line and then throw the whole thing out.
>>>> But some people consider it a status symbol to have a 1000-page
>>>> report run just for them.
>>>
>>> Actually, a lot of people considered it a status symbol to get a
>>> 1,000 page report, and guarded their symbols carefully.
>>
>> "To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem."
>

> Hey, I would of thought that getting a big report would be a negative.
> Upper echelon people read executive summaries, underlings read the
> whole thing and report exceptions.

There's a difference between getting a large report and reading it.
The last line of that 1000-page report is, for all practical purposes,
the executive summary. The status symbol is the fact that said manager
got some underling to go to the effort of running off the 1000 pages
for him.

The grand old Duke of York,
He had ten thousand men.
He marched them up to the top of the hill
And marched them down again.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Oct 2, 8:50 pm, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:

> > > Actually, a lot of people considered it a status symbol to get a 1,000
> > > page report, and guarded their symbols carefully.

> Hey, I would of thought that getting a big report would be a negative.
> Upper echelon people read executive summaries, underlings read the
> whole thing and report exceptions.

It's not that they actually read the full report (see above story).
They just felt important getting a thick document. They dumped it on
their underling to read.

[ArarghMai...@not.at.arargh.com]

On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 21:55:34 -0400, "Joe Morris"
<j.c.m...@verizon.net> wrote:

>"Peter Flass" <Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 10/1/2012 11:54 AM, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>> On Oct 1, 7:34 am, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>> I believe we used to have the forms companies do the design for us for
>>>> free in return for a guaranteed order.
>
>>> You mean the companies like Moore Business Forms and such for output
>>> paper?
>
>> Yes, I thought of Moore, but was trying to come up with one or two other
>> names.
>
>UARCO was another big supplier. It was bought by Standard Register in 1997.

Well, I have forms rulers from "The Standard Register Company", "the
forms group"(I think they were/are local to Illinois), and "Duplex
Products, Inc." sitting over there on the corner of my desk. All
left over from the early 70s. Still use them a bit. :-)

>I can't think of any other supplier my shops used other than the el cheapo
>crap that the purchasing office would occasionally buy despite its failure
>to meet even the most basic quality criteria.
>
>Joe
>

--
ArarghMail208 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html

To reply by email, remove the extra stuff from the reply address.

[danny burstein]

In <8oj47891lrcnrijt9...@4ax.com> ArarghMai...@NOT.AT.Arargh.com writes:

>>>>> I believe we used to have the forms companies do the design for us for
>>>>> free in return for a guaranteed order.
>>
>>>> You mean the companies like Moore Business Forms and such for output
>>>> paper?
>>
>>> Yes, I thought of Moore, but was trying to come up with one or two other
>>> names.
>>
>>UARCO was another big supplier. It was bought by Standard Register in 1997.

>Well, I have forms rulers from "The Standard Register Company", "the
>forms group"(I think they were/are local to Illinois), and "Duplex
>Products, Inc." sitting over there on the corner of my desk. All
>left over from the early 70s. Still use them a bit. :-)

New England Business Forms, perhaps? ALthoguh in looking
them up now I see they've been bought up by "Deluxe".
http://www.nebs.com
http://www.deluxe.com/

--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Oct 8, 12:10 am, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

> New England Business Forms, perhaps? ALthoguh in looking
> them up now I see they've been bought up by "Deluxe".http://www.nebs.comhttp://www.deluxe.com/

Standard Register was a large company.

As an aside, I have a I.T. application directory "annual" dating from
circa 1960 listing a variety of companies and their use if IT
equipment. Almost all of the companies no longer exist in their
original form. Many are shut down entirely*, others have been bought
out by bigger companies. Some once proud companies have gone into
bankruptcy.

I have an IBM ad for a "Camlock" company that made fasteners. I can't
find any mention of the company, but the fasteners remain in use as a
specific type of fastener used on airplanes.

Hmm, maybe using IT gear isn't such a good idea. <g>


*When I did an Internet search on a company, I found that some
company's main HQ is now abandoned and either a toxic waste site or an
historical site that people are trying to restore. Sad.

Out of curiousity, I also checked out some of the IT managers
mentioned. Most, as would be expected, have passed on--no privacy on
the Internet--most names were found unless the name was very common.

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<2dce4c38-99ce-4aec...@b15g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> On Oct 8, 12:10�am, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > New England Business Forms, perhaps? ALthoguh in looking
> > them up now I see they've been bought up by
> > "Deluxe".http://www.nebs.comhttp://www.deluxe.com/
>
> Standard Register was a large company.
>
> As an aside, I have a I.T. application directory "annual" dating from
> circa 1960 listing a variety of companies and their use if IT
> equipment. Almost all of the companies no longer exist in their
> original form. Many are shut down entirely*, others have been bought
> out by bigger companies. Some once proud companies have gone into
> bankruptcy.
>
> I have an IBM ad for a "Camlock" company that made fasteners. I can't
> find any mention of the company, but the fasteners remain in use as a
> specific type of fastener used on airplanes.
>
> Hmm, maybe using IT gear isn't such a good idea. <g>
>

Centronics. Everyone used centronics ports long after the company went
belly up.

[Peter Flass]

On 10/8/2012 1:08 AM, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Oct 8, 12:10 am, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> New England Business Forms, perhaps? ALthoguh in looking
>> them up now I see they've been bought up by "Deluxe".http://www.nebs.comhttp://www.deluxe.com/
>
> Standard Register was a large company.
>
> As an aside, I have a I.T. application directory "annual" dating from
> circa 1960 listing a variety of companies and their use if IT
> equipment.

Would Bitsavers be interested?

--
Pete

[Joe Morris]

<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

>I have an IBM ad for a "Camlock" company that made fasteners. I can't
>find any mention of the company, but the fasteners remain in use as a
>specific type of fastener used on airplanes.

www.camlock.com perhaps? I'm not quite sure why there would be an IBM ad
for Camlock unless it was bragging about how IBM systems helped Camlock.

Joe

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Oct 8, 6:26 pm, "Joe Morris" <j.c.mor...@verizon.net> wrote:

> www.camlock.comperhaps?  I'm not quite sure why there would be an IBM ad

> for Camlock unless it was bragging about how IBM systems helped Camlock.

Yes, the IBM ad was bragging about its systems helped the company.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Oct 8, 8:01 am, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:

> > As an aside, I have a I.T. application directory "annual" dating from
> > circa 1960 listing a variety of companies and their use if IT
> > equipment.
>
> Would Bitsavers be interested?

Can they scan a bound volume? (Assuming I can find the book in my
'black hole'.)

Also, can they use old advertisements? Some are larger than 8.5 x
11".

[Al Kossow]

On 10/9/12 10:57 AM, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Oct 8, 8:01 am, Peter Flass<Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> As an aside, I have a I.T. application directory "annual" dating from
>>> circa 1960 listing a variety of companies and their use if IT
>>> equipment.
>>
>> Would Bitsavers be interested?
>
> Can they scan a bound volume? (Assuming I can find the book in my
> 'black hole'.)
>

I have a book scanner, but it is VERY time consuming to do so.
It would be better if someone else could take this on as my backlog
is pretty bad right now.

[ArarghMai...@not.at.arargh.com]

On Mon, 08 Oct 2012 07:55:59 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
wrote:

Still do, if your PC has a parallel printer port. :-)

And, I imagine that if you connected a real Centronics printer to a
PC, it would work just fine. Hmmm, have to try that some day.

arargh

[Walter Bushell]

In article <uqnb78d79qfn9q6u9...@4ax.com>,

I for one haven't had a confuser with a parallel printer port in a
decade.

And way back in the 1980s Centronics was long defunct.

I saw a presentation which showed how much money you could have made
if you had bought stocks 20 years ago. They used the stocks of
companies that were on the market today compared to their value 20
years ago, but they did not account for the companies that went under.

And I suppose some of the companies went through bankruptcy where the
owners lost most if not all of their stake.

Ah, statistics and how to lie with them.

[Charles Richmond]

<ArarghMai...@NOT.AT.Arargh.com> wrote in message
news:uqnb78d79qfn9q6u9...@4ax.com...

ISTM that the PC would need a *driver* for the specific printer, even if
there was a Centronic's port.

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

[Patrick Scheible]

I have a computer with a parallel printer port. The printer port isn't
being used, and the computer has been demoted to gateway duty, but it's
still working.

-- Patrick

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 09:01:18 -0500
"Charles Richmond" <nume...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> ISTM that the PC would need a *driver* for the specific printer, even if
> there was a Centronic's port.

If the printer talks ASCII, PCL, ESC-P or PostScript then a generic
driver will do well enough. When I used printers with centronics sockets
they usually talked at least one of those if you got the DIP switches right.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

[William Hamblen]

On 2012-10-11, Charles Richmond <nume...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> ISTM that the PC would need a *driver* for the specific printer, even if
> there was a Centronic's port.

Not much of a driver. Those parallel port printers mostly received
plain old ASCII characters, and the BIOS on a PC compatible had support.

Bud

[JimP.]

And if your PC only has USB ports for devices other than video, you
can get a USB to Centraonics cable for a rediculous amount of money.
I've seen them for as much as 50 dollars with a 6 foot cable between
the connectors.
.
JimP.
--
Brushing aside the thorns so I can see the stars.
http://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ Drive-In movie theaters
http://story.drivein-jim.net/ A story Feb, 2011

[lawr...@gandi.cluon.com]

JimP. <pongb...@cableone.net> writes:
>
> And if your PC only has USB ports for devices other than video, you
> can get a USB to Centraonics cable for a rediculous amount of money.
> I've seen them for as much as 50 dollars with a 6 foot cable between
> the connectors.
> .
> JimP.

Crikey! The local place has USB/Parallel converters for about $12 with
a 1.5m cable ... the USB/Serial converters are even cheaper -- I bought
one for seven bucks to hook to the console port of my last "real"
computer.

[Mike Spencer]

Patrick Scheible <k...@zipcon.net> writes:

> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> writes:
>
>> I for one haven't had a confuser with a parallel printer port in a
>> decade.
>
> I have a computer with a parallel printer port. The printer port isn't
> being used, and the computer has been demoted to gateway duty, but it's
> still working.

Gee, all four of my computers have parallel ports. But what I use is a
wireless router, also with a parallel port, connected to a Brother
laser printer with a Centronics port. All the computers -- all Linux
-- convert everything to Postscript and talk to the router. The router
talks to the printer which understands Postscript natively.

I actually blew 30 bucks on a USB-to-Centronics cable because I know
that when the router dies, I'll never find another with a parallel
port. Only found a replacement 6 years ago after groveling through
eBay and getting it hand-carried back from the US. With any luck, the
printer and router will live forever and I'll never need the adapter
cable. Without luck, the printer will die and I'll have to replace the
router anyhow.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

[jmfbahciv]

I've got a 486 and 386 with parallel ports. ;-)

/BAH

[Charles Richmond]

"JimP." <pongb...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:e2ae78huo0j7he104...@4ax.com...

Jim, do they have a USB to 20 ma current loop adapter... so one can use an
*old* teletype??? ;-)

[Charles Richmond]

"Mike Spencer" <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote in message
news:878vbc4...@nudel.nodomain.nowhere...
>
> [snip...] [snip...]
> [snip...]

>
> I actually blew 30 bucks on a USB-to-Centronics cable because I know
> that when the router dies, I'll never find another with a parallel
> port. Only found a replacement 6 years ago after groveling through
> eBay and getting it hand-carried back from the US. With any luck, the
> printer and router will live forever and I'll never need the adapter
> cable. Without luck, the printer will die and I'll have to replace the
> router anyhow.
>

So Mike, under which "timeline" are you going to *need* the USB-to
Centronics adapter??? Eh??? ;-)

What percentage would you give the possibility of actually needing the
converter???

[Charles Richmond]

"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004CBD...@ac81381f.ipt.aol.com...

BAH, what you have are *not* home "computers"... you now run a *museum*!!!
;-) You need a stuffed replica of yourself to add to the museum... with a
sign that says "Secritarius Oldtimus"... ;-)

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot ocm

[lawr...@gandi.cluon.com]

"Charles Richmond" <nume...@aquaporin4.com> writes:
> Jim, do they have a USB to 20 ma current loop adapter... so one can
> use an *old* teletype??? ;-)
>

That shouldn't be TOO hard to just build - When USB first came out, our
vendor sent us a bunch of the chips they'd developed for it - and the
USB-Serial chip had TTL-level on the serial side, so with just a few
resistors and a couple of optos you could have a nice fully-isolated CL
interface. Even if the chip has an integral charge pump and
RS-232-compatible drivers, the BOM only adds a diode or two and a little
cleverness.

[Scott Lurndal]

"Charles Richmond" <nume...@aquaporin4.com> writes:
>"JimP." <pongb...@cableone.net> wrote in message

>

>Jim, do they have a USB to 20 ma current loop adapter... so one can use an
>*old* teletype??? ;-)

RS232C can be converted electrically to 20ma current loop with a couple of
discrete components. I don't recall the details, but we built a bunch of
these in the 80's.

And USB->RS232C adapters are a dime a dozen.

Here's a commercial RS232C to 20ma CL adapter.

www.southern-automation.com/Images/Interior/.../gcm232.pdf

scott

[JimP.]

Haven't seen one of those recently. I did see a single pen plotter
back about 1990. It would raise the pen holder when it was set to
change colors.

[JimP.]

I used these cables to connect a laser jet printer to a Vista
Computer. Now on Win 7. Oooof.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Oct 12, 3:23 pm, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
> "Charles Richmond" <numer...@aquaporin4.com> writes:
> >"JimP." <pongbill...@cableone.net> wrote in message

>
> >Jim, do they have a USB to 20 ma current loop adapter... so one can use an
> >*old* teletype???   ;-)
>
> RS232C can be converted electrically to 20ma current loop with a couple of
> discrete components.   I don't recall the details, but we built a bunch of
> these in the 80's.

Wasn't there a company "black box" that made converters for such
esoteric things?

[Rod Speed]

<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote
> sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote
>> Charles Richmond <numer...@aquaporin4.com> wrote
>>> JimP. <pongbill...@cableone.net> wrote

>>> Jim, do they have a USB to 20 ma current loop adapter...
>>> so one can use an *old* teletype??? ;-)

>> RS232C can be converted electrically to 20ma current
>> loop with a couple of discrete components. I don't
>> recall the details, but we built a bunch of these in the 80's.

> Wasn't there a company "black box" that
> made converters for such esoteric things?

Yep, and they are still around even now.
http://www.blackbox.com/

And even have the adapter too
http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Detail.aspx/RS-232-to-Current-Loop-Converters/CL1090A%c4%82F
Pity about the price, as always with blackbox.

Very easy to do if you know anything about electronics.

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=rs232+to+current+loop+converter

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

Yes, time was the "Black Box" catalogue was even more useful than
the RS one.

[jmfbahciv]

The sign above the door to this room says "DEC-10" which were the signs
above the doors to the machine room (until VMS/VAX culture edicted that
PDP-10s were a swear word. There were two "public" doors to the machine
room; I have both signs.


/BAH

[Paul]

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote in
news:20121013150328.e941...@eircom.net:

> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 17:34:31 -0700 (PDT)
> hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> On Oct 12, 3:23 pm, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>> > "Charles Richmond" <numer...@aquaporin4.com> writes:
>> > >"JimP." <pongbill...@cableone.net> wrote in message
>> >
>> > >Jim, do they have a USB to 20 ma current loop adapter... so
>> > >one can use an *old* teletype???   ;-)
>> >
>> > RS232C can be converted electrically to 20ma current loop with
>> > a couple of discrete components.   I don't recall the details,
>> > but we built a bunch of these in the 80's.
>>
>> Wasn't there a company "black box" that made converters for such
>> esoteric things?
>
> Yes, time was the "Black Box" catalogue was even more useful
> than
> the RS one.
>

They are still there, slightly different products and services:

http://www.blackbox.com/index.aspx

I had a lot of their adaptors and test equipment when I worked with
RS232.

--
Paul

[lawr...@gandi.cluon.com]

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:

> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 17:34:31 -0700 (PDT)
> hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> On Oct 12, 3:23 pm, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>> > "Charles Richmond" <numer...@aquaporin4.com> writes:
>> > >"JimP." <pongbill...@cableone.net> wrote in message
>> >
>> > >Jim, do they have a USB to 20 ma current loop adapter... so one can
>> > >use an *old* teletype???   ;-)
>> >
>> > RS232C can be converted electrically to 20ma current loop with a couple
>> > of discrete components.   I don't recall the details, but we built a
>> > bunch of these in the 80's.
>>
>> Wasn't there a company "black box" that made converters for such
>> esoteric things?
>
> Yes, time was the "Black Box" catalogue was even more useful than
> the RS one.

I remember very vividly having one of those -- I'd never in a trillion
years consider *buying* anything from them (Their prices were
outrageous), but they had a great reference section in each catalog.

[Mike Spencer]

"Charles Richmond" <nume...@aquaporin4.com> writes:

> "Mike Spencer" <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote in message
> news:878vbc4...@nudel.nodomain.nowhere...
>>
>> [snip...] [snip...]
>>

>> I actually blew 30 bucks on a USB-to-Centronics cable because I know
>> that when the router dies, I'll never find another with a parallel
>> port. Only found a replacement 6 years ago after groveling through
>> eBay and getting it hand-carried back from the US. With any luck, the
>> printer and router will live forever and I'll never need the adapter
>> cable. Without luck, the printer will die and I'll have to replace the
>> router anyhow.
>>
>
> So Mike, under which "timeline" are you going to *need* the USB-to
> Centronics adapter??? Eh??? ;-)
>
> What percentage would you give the possibility of actually needing the
> converter???

The bet is on "only a little luck", that the workhorse printer (that I
like) will outlive the router (that has one tolerable but unfixable
shortcoming). Can't guess the numerical odds.

At my (our? :-) age (or so it is alleged by various do-gooders) there
is a risk of becoming debilitated by a morbid preoccupation with
death. Hey, we're all gonna die. What gets me into an occasional
snit is fear of bother. There's *serious* bother -- chronic pain,
say, or being tethered to pharmaceuticals -- that I've avoided so far.

But there is bother that is merely pernicious. And buying new
computers, cars, kitchen appliances and many other late 20th or early
21st c. products leads to pernicious bother unless you are that median
consumer around the gullibility and malleability of whom the products
were designed.

Well, it's a rant, y'know? And a bunfight, with one side saying, "You
pathetic old geezers are just afraid of change or anything new" and
the other saying, "Life-long learning isn't learning the same stuff
over and over in order to support the marketing needs of giant
corporations. Make me something new that is also better and *does what
I want* and I'll fall on it like a rabid weasel."

If you encounter something that works for you; or that can be modified
to suit you; or that can be used to make or repair something that
suits you; buy a gross now because when you want another, they won't
be making them anymore. Instead, they'll try to sell you something
inferior that you'll have to return or modify or rebuild or learn to
use or just throw away in impotent rage.

Here's an example of pernicious bother:

http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/shop/alldays2.html#come-along

It worked out better than the typical instance but it was still
pernicious bother.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

Well not with *my* money you understand.

> outrageous), but they had a great reference section in each catalog.

They also had good fast delivery and always had everything IME.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <87txtyn...@gandi.cluon.com>, on 10/13/2012

at 06:30 PM, lawr...@gandi.cluon.com said:

>I remember very vividly having one of those -- I'd never in a
>trillion years consider *buying* anything from them (Their prices
>were outrageous),

Penny wise and pound foolish. Yes, Black Box's prices were high, but
you had a better chance of getting the right part, and one that
worked, if you bought from them.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spam...@library.lspace.org

[Patrick Scheible]

Great catch. I hope they're mentioned in your will so that your
executor doesn't mistakenly think they go in the trash.

-- Patrick

[Charles Richmond]

"Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote in
message news:507a193a$33$fuzhry+tra$mr2...@news.patriot.net...

> In <87txtyn...@gandi.cluon.com>, on 10/13/2012
> at 06:30 PM, lawr...@gandi.cluon.com said:
>
>>I remember very vividly having one of those -- I'd never in a
>>trillion years consider *buying* anything from them (Their prices
>>were outrageous),
>
> Penny wise and pound foolish. Yes, Black Box's prices were high, but
> you had a better chance of getting the right part, and one that
> worked, if you bought from them.
>

And given the propensity of companies to use stuff until they "ran it in the
ground"... there must have been a ready market. In my experience, some
companies use stuff *way* beyond what the cost-benefit analysis would
recommend. They fail to consider the exorbitant prices they pay for "spare
parts" to keep things running. Or the time and energy the maintenance
people expend just trying to *find* some of those parts. Or the huge
increase in the number of widgets that could be produced by a more modern
machine.

[Charles Richmond]

"Patrick Scheible" <k...@zipcon.net> wrote in message
news:86hapxs...@zipcon.net...

I am hoping that BAH leaves her historical things to the Babbage Institute
in Minneapolis (University of Minnesota). :-) Perhaps the Computer History
Museum would be a better place for the signs, though.

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

[Charles Richmond]

"Mike Spencer" <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote in message

news:87txtye...@nudel.nodomain.nowhere...
>
> [snip...] [snip...]
> [snip...]

>
> If you encounter something that works for you; or that can be modified
> to suit you; or that can be used to make or repair something that
> suits you; buy a gross now because when you want another, they won't
> be making them anymore. Instead, they'll try to sell you something
> inferior that you'll have to return or modify or rebuild or learn to
> use or just throw away in impotent rage.
>
> Here's an example of pernicious bother:
>
> http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/shop/alldays2.html#come-along
>
> It worked out better than the typical instance but it was still
> pernicious bother.
>

I knew an older guy back in the 70's who lived in Norway during WWII. He
referred to WWII as "the great unpleasantness". :-)

You are right... stock up now, because tomorrow they won't make it
anymore... or it will become so expensive that you can *not* afford to buy
it.

[jmfbahciv]

I've left instructions that all DEC stuff should go to CBI. However,
if there is an appropriate place for some of this stuff, I'll give it
away.

/BAH

[jmfbahciv]

I still have a very bad taste in my mouth w.r.t. the Computer History
Museum which should not be read as denigrating the current people who work
there. The purge of all things PDP-10 and DEC which happened during the 80s
was also committed at the Musium when the Bells were still running things.

/BAH

[Charlie Gibbs]

In article <86hapxs...@zipcon.net>, k...@zipcon.net
(Patrick Scheible) writes:

> jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> writes:
>
>> The sign above the door to this room says "DEC-10" which were the
>> signs above the doors to the machine room (until VMS/VAX culture
>> edicted that PDP-10s were a swear word. There were two "public"
>> doors to the machine room; I have both signs.
>
> Great catch. I hope they're mentioned in your will so that your
> executor doesn't mistakenly think they go in the trash.

Over my desk I have a Univac name plate and an original IBM
"THINK" sign.

--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

[lawr...@gandi.cluon.com]

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> writes:

> In <87txtyn...@gandi.cluon.com>, on 10/13/2012
> at 06:30 PM, lawr...@gandi.cluon.com said:
>
>>I remember very vividly having one of those -- I'd never in a
>>trillion years consider *buying* anything from them (Their prices
>>were outrageous),
>
> Penny wise and pound foolish. Yes, Black Box's prices were high, but
> you had a better chance of getting the right part, and one that
> worked, if you bought from them.

Given that as a starving student, my own time was worth so little, the
ulterior benefit of making and debugging my own kit was worth far more
to me than the few p I was able to scrape up.

--NK1G

[Shmuel Metz]

In <k5eas3$cp0$3...@dont-email.me>, on 10/14/2012

at 07:23 AM, "Charles Richmond" <nume...@aquaporin4.com> said:

>In my experience, some companies use stuff *way* beyond what the
>cost-benefit analysis would recommend.

Cost-benefit analysis? SOP is for purchasing to go to the low bidder
regardless of whether the component will actually work. BTDT,GTS.

Oh, and costs that come out of someone else's budget don't count even
if they condescend to do a C/B analysis.

[Peter Flass]

On 10/14/2012 8:23 AM, Charles Richmond wrote:
>
> And given the propensity of companies to use stuff until they "ran it in
> the ground"... there must have been a ready market. In my experience,
> some companies use stuff *way* beyond what the cost-benefit analysis
> would recommend. They fail to consider the exorbitant prices they pay
> for "spare parts" to keep things running. Or the time and energy the
> maintenance people expend just trying to *find* some of those parts. Or
> the huge increase in the number of widgets that could be produced by a
> more modern machine.
>

If you're talking about infrastructure it's difficult to do a wholesale
replacement, so often spit and bubble gum is the best approach. If you
can replace piecemeal, like a PC with 3270 emulation in place of a real
3270, that's often a better choice.


--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

Both are good at keeping stuff, but neither one is very good at making
it available to J. Random Public. It's frustrating to read lots of
catalog entries for something you'd like to see and can't get at.


--
Pete

[Patrick Scheible]

The Living Computer Museum operates a TOPS-10 system, genuine DEC-made,
not an emulator. If I had a sign with such history, and the museum was
interested, that's where I'd pass it on to. But there are other good
places too, I'm sure.

-- Patrick

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Oct 14, 1:22 pm, "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> Over my desk I have a Univac name plate and an original IBM
> "THINK" sign.

Many programmers lifted the name plate off their mainframe when it was
being removed. S/360 only said System/360, but 370 also had the model
number. After that I don't know if they bothered with nice large name
plates or other cool stuff.

IBM sold (or sells) contemporary THINK signs.

They sold a variety of stuff for their 100th anniversary. But I was
pissed--I got a t-shirt and it turned out they sized them wrong; and
they (their marketer, actually) wouldn't take it back unworn.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

Here lieth the difference, Black Box sold mostly to businesses
doing installations who could get what they needed from Black Box fast
enough that the client never noticed the wait, and who could pass the cost
on to the client where the price of the little bits vanished in the noise.
I bought stuff from the a lot in those circumstances, but if it was for me
it was more likely to come from Maplin, H. Gee or somewhere along Tottenham
Court Road.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <87sj9g9...@gandi.cluon.com>, on 10/14/2012

at 08:48 PM, lawr...@gandi.cluon.com said:

>Given that as a starving student, my own time was worth so little,
>the ulterior benefit of making and debugging my own kit was worth
>far more to me than the few p I was able to scrape up.

In that situation I would probably make do also, but I was dealing
with computer-related hardware long before it was affordable by a mere
systems programmer; if I needed a cable, connector or line monitor, it
was for work and there would be flack if it malfunctioned.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <PM0004CC0...@aca20e76.ipt.aol.com>, on 10/14/2012

at 02:39 PM, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> said:

>However, if there is an appropriate place for some of this stuff,
>I'll give it away.

I'll give my manuals now to anybody that will pick them up, scan them,
do the OCR work and provide the PDF files to bitsavers.

[Charlie Gibbs]

In article
<a749b01d-c0db-48a2...@o8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com (hancock4) writes:

> IBM sold (or sells) contemporary THINK signs.
>
> They sold a variety of stuff for their 100th anniversary. But I was
> pissed--I got a t-shirt and it turned out they sized them wrong; and
> they (their marketer, actually) wouldn't take it back unworn.

Typical marketroid. That's one thing that hasn't changed:
get it wrong and make the customer pay to fix it.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <735.706T27...@kltpzyxm.invalid>, on 10/15/2012

at 08:49 AM, "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> said:

>In article
><a749b01d-c0db-48a2...@o8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
>hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com (hancock4) writes:

>> IBM sold (or sells) contemporary THINK signs.
>>
>> They sold a variety of stuff for their 100th anniversary. But I was
>> pissed--I got a t-shirt and it turned out they sized them wrong; and
>> they (their marketer, actually) wouldn't take it back unworn.

>Typical marketroid. That's one thing that hasn't changed: get it
>wrong and make the customer pay to fix it.

That's why I pay with a credit card. In the US, if they don't send
what you ordered you call your credit card issuer and they have to
give you a charge back. It will almost certainly cost the vendor more
than shipping you the correct item or giving you a refund, but I
didn't ask them to attempt to defraud me.

[Harry Vaderchi]

On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 18:14:12 +0100, Mike Spencer
<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:


>
> Here's an example of pernicious bother:
>
> http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/shop/alldays2.html#come-along
>
> It worked out better than the typical instance but it was still
> pernicious bother.
>

That shure is a marty fine doohickey ya got there, fella!


--
[dash dash space newline 4line sig]

Albi CNU

[Paul]

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote

in news:507b2cac$41$fuzhry+tra$mr2...@news.patriot.net:

> In <k5eas3$cp0$3...@dont-email.me>, on 10/14/2012
> at 07:23 AM, "Charles Richmond" <nume...@aquaporin4.com> said:
>
>>In my experience, some companies use stuff *way* beyond what the
>>cost-benefit analysis would recommend.
>
> Cost-benefit analysis? SOP is for purchasing to go to the low
> bidder regardless of whether the component will actually work.
> BTDT,GTS.

I usually had good luck ordering from, say, Black Box, by listing
their catalog numbers and sending the request to Purchasing along
with the catalog, and often no one wanted to bother trying to find a
cheaper equivalent, even if they had an idea of what those techie
things were that I was ordering.

Later, we could order direct for an order under some amount.

> Oh, and costs that come out of someone else's budget don't count
> even if they condescend to do a C/B analysis.

My boss would fill in the account charge numbers, so I did not have
to worry about budgets, though I did have to prioritize.

--
Paul

[Mike Spencer]

"Harry Vaderchi" <ad...@127.0.0.1> writes:

> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 18:14:12 +0100, Mike Spencer
> <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> Here's an example of pernicious bother:
>>
>> http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/shop/alldays2.html#come-along
>>
>> It worked out better than the typical instance but it was still
>> pernicious bother.
>>
>
> That shure is a marty fine doohickey ya got there, fella!

Yes, thank you. [1] Way back in '67, when I ordered my original 4
spare springs by phone, they sent me the springs (4x35 cents) and one
complete new come-along ($35, more than a day's pay for me
then). C.O.D., not a freebie, but in retrospect, to my
benefit. Recounting all the dire straights from which those two
"doohickeys" have saved me, all the undoable tasks made doable etc. in
my years of an essentially zero-budget life would make a smallish
book.


[1] Or did you mean the 300# air hammer shown further up on the page?
But then, weighing in at several tons, that item rather exceeds
the conventional parameters for "doohickey".

ObAFC: The big hammer does have a modern electronic bicycle speedometer
attached, with two magnets from a HD on the big gear, set up so's
to get the diesel up to the right speed. This inspired a
similar setup for my pet mouse's exercise wheel. Magnet on the
wheel, bike speedo sensor nearby, connected to the button-1
switch of a serial mouse, plugged into a Linux box. A perl
script allows me to monitor max RPM and total distance run.

Not exactly folklore (yet? :-) but more on-topic than
pernicious bother(tm), come-along springs or air hammers.

[jmfbahciv]

ROFLMAO. You have the world's only useful mouse device.

/BAH