Getting Out Hard Drive in Real Old Computer
computergal
the years because I wanted to take the hard drive out as it contained
confidential information. Well, today I finally decided to do it.
Got the case off, disconnected the cable and the power cord from the hard
drive and looked for the screws that connected the hard drive to the box
containing it that was affixed to the case. And I looked and I looked.
Although the hard drive had screws in it, they weren't the screws connecting
the hard drive to the box. Although the drive and the box were firmly
affixed to the frame, no screws were doing the job.
Then I saw what looked like metal clips, more like wings that might be
holding the box in place. So I tried to manipulate this clips/wings,
pushing and pulling gently but it was firm. Then I though that the box
containing the hard drive would slip out. No that didn't work.
I never seen a hard drive affixed this way before. The computer does not
have ethernet, usb capability or direct cable capability. The only way I am
going to be able to get the info off the hard drive is to either burn some
CD's or take another computer and hook its cables up to the old computer to
read the hard drive. All a pain in the butt.
So anybody remember anything about this kind of construction and tell me how
to unfasten the hard drive. I thought there was a chance somebody would
know..
Mensanator
wrote:
Hey, this is the 21st century. Take some pictures with your
digital camera and post them on your web site.
computergal
"Mensanator" <mensa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:63e804cf-834a-44c7...@l31g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
Hey, this is the 21st century. Take some pictures with your
digital camera and post them on your web site.
Digital camera? Web Site?
computergal
I have finally found the old manual which says:
"The original hard disk drive sits in a drive bracket that is mounted inside
the computer.
This entire assembly is held in place by a clip. Press the clip to release
it and lift the
entire drive bracket from the computer."
Well, I have pressed and lifted and nadda, zip, nothing.
Hard drive and enclosure still stuck in there.
"computergal" <compu...@idontknowwhattodo.org> wrote in message
news:hcan47$c3g$1...@aioe.org...
Joe Morris
>the years because I wanted to take the hard drive out as it contained
>confidential information. Well, today I finally decided to do it.
>
> Got the case off, disconnected the cable and the power cord from the hard
> drive and looked for the screws that connected the hard drive to the box
> containing it that was affixed to the case. And I looked and I looked.
> Although the hard drive had screws in it, they weren't the screws
> connecting the hard drive to the box. Although the drive and the box
> were firmly affixed to the frame, no screws were doing the job.
The site 4allmemory.com advertises a hard disk for the Globalyst 375 - and
it's a generic 3-1/2" Barracuda, meaning that there are probably ten
threaded holes in the disk frame, any combination of which might be used to
hold the disk firmly against the chassis. Did you look at the backside of
the chassis to see if there might be screws there?
And the only screw heads you should be seeing would be the ones on the top
cover, and the ones holding the circuit board to the frame (all of which are
probably Torx). Any other screws in the disk frame (there are three
threaded holes on each side plus four on the bottom) should be candidates
for removal. Ditto for any exoskeleton or sled that's not part of the
industry-standard 3-1/2" designs.
Joe Morris
ArarghMai...@not.at.arargh.com
<compu...@idontknowwhattodo.org> wrote:
>Update:
>
>I have finally found the old manual which says:
>
>"The original hard disk drive sits in a drive bracket that is mounted inside
>the computer.
>This entire assembly is held in place by a clip. Press the clip to release
>it and lift the
>entire drive bracket from the computer."
>
>Well, I have pressed and lifted and nadda, zip, nothing.
Sometimes you have to lift harder. :-)
<snip>
--
ArarghMail910 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html
To reply by email, remove the extra stuff from the reply address.
Jorgen Grahn
> I have an very old AT&T Globalyst 375T PC from 1995.
1995 is "very old" now? I feel old. (Although I did shut down
my ~1995 AST Premmia in 2005.)
...
> I never seen a hard drive affixed this way before. The computer does not
> have ethernet, usb capability or direct cable capability. The only way I am
> going to be able to get the info off the hard drive is to either burn some
> CD's or take another computer and hook its cables up to the old computer to
> read the hard drive. All a pain in the butt.
Well, to me that last alternative doesn't sound too bad: open both
computers, hook up a longish IDE cable, boot up the target and dump
the disk to file (preferably both as an image and as a tar/cpio
archive).
Of course, if you have one of those IDE->USB enclosures, getting the
disk loose is more attractive. Or maybe it's SCSI?
Either way, I suggest smashing the disk afterwards; otherwise you'll
find it in 2015 and wonder if you really have a copy of it ...
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
ChrisQ
>
> Either way, I suggest smashing the disk afterwards; otherwise you'll
> find it in 2015 and wonder if you really have a copy of it ...
>
> /Jorgen
>
LOL :-). I have copies on the server of stuff from nearly every machine
i've ever owned right back to a microvax II from 1992. The drives were
smaller then, so it doesn't take up too much disk space, but provides a
timeline in computing that's occasionally usefull. Still have to
retrieve some stuff from a couple of sun3 boxes, but that's trivial
compared to the hassle it was to read the uVax drive and it scsi as well.
I've kept the drives in most cases, which must rate pretty high on the
sadness scale :-)...
Regards,
Chris
Eric Chomko
Or you can tape a note on the drive stating what is on it and that you
have in fact backed up the drive.
Michael Black
No use a marker and write directly on the drive.
Michael
Eric Chomko
You don't even rate until you have constructed a separate building on
your property and have it stuffed with computer equipment. Not the
garage, but another building that is a "ware" house. :)
The only thing worse is actually leasing storage space for computer
equipment that is not even as valuable as the amount you're paying to
store it!
grey...@mail.com
> On Thu, 2009-10-29, computergal wrote:
>> I have an very old AT&T Globalyst 375T PC from 1995.
>
> 1995 is "very old" now? I feel old. (Although I did shut down
> my ~1995 AST Premmia in 2005.)
>
> ...
>> I never seen a hard drive affixed this way before. The computer does not
>> have ethernet, usb capability or direct cable capability. The only way I am
>> going to be able to get the info off the hard drive is to either burn some
>> CD's or take another computer and hook its cables up to the old computer to
>> read the hard drive. All a pain in the butt.
>
> Well, to me that last alternative doesn't sound too bad: open both
> computers, hook up a longish IDE cable, boot up the target and dump
> the disk to file (preferably both as an image and as a tar/cpio
> archive).
>
> Of course, if you have one of those IDE->USB enclosures, getting the
> disk loose is more attractive. Or maybe it's SCSI?
Got one of those a while ago, as recommended here. Works perfectly.
T'would probably work with the disk in situ, if the cable could be
removed, and the thingie's one inserted.
>
> Either way, I suggest smashing the disk afterwards; otherwise you'll
> find it in 2015 and wonder if you really have a copy of it ...
>
> /Jorgen
>
--
Greymaus....
\/\
\?
ArarghMai...@not.at.arargh.com
Not bad. :-)
I still have a stack of ST-225s from my first PC.
And some CDC 80 meg SMD drives & packs.
AND some Diablo 44A drives and packs form even eariler. :-)
Pretty much every drive I have ever had going back to the mid 70s.
Charlie Gibbs
<8242ea60-5560-47c8...@s21g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
pne.c...@comcast.net (Eric Chomko) writes:
My stuff - various tapes, disk packs, manuals, a TTY35RO, a pair
of UNISERVO VI-C tape drives, etc. - now shares a hangar with
an airplane that's even older. My wife was the driving force
behind getting the hangar - it enabled us to move all that stuff
out of the house.
And it gives me a handy location for off-site storage of backups.
--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Charles Richmond
> Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>
>>
>> Either way, I suggest smashing the disk afterwards; otherwise you'll
>> find it in 2015 and wonder if you really have a copy of it ...
>>
>> /Jorgen
>>
>
> LOL :-). I have copies on the server of stuff from nearly every machine
> i've ever owned right back to a microvax II from 1992. The drives were
> smaller then, so it doesn't take up too much disk space, but provides a
> timeline in computing that's occasionally usefull. Still have to
> retrieve some stuff from a couple of sun3 boxes, but that's trivial
> compared to the hassle it was to read the uVax drive and it scsi as well.
>
Back circa 20 years ago, when the Atari ST was my main computer, I
used to archive all the software and data on 720k floppy disks. I
had upwards of 100 disks. It amounts to something like 128 meg of
information... just one-fifth of a CD-ROM.
> I've kept the drives in most cases, which must rate pretty high on the
> sadness scale :-)...
>
Saving all the old drives rates pretty high on the "pathetic"
scale... like clinging to a piece of driftwood after a shipwreck.
;-) Actually, it's *not* so bad, if you intend someday to
resurrect a replica of your old computer.
--
+----------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond |
| |
| plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com |
+----------------------------------------+
Charles Richmond
> On Oct 29, 9:39 am, ChrisQ <m...@devnull.com> wrote:
>> Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>>
>>> Either way, I suggest smashing the disk afterwards; otherwise you'll
>>> find it in 2015 and wonder if you really have a copy of it ...
>>> /Jorgen
>> LOL :-). I have copies on the server of stuff from nearly every machine
>> i've ever owned right back to a microvax II from 1992. The drives were
>> smaller then, so it doesn't take up too much disk space, but provides a
>> timeline in computing that's occasionally usefull. Still have to
>> retrieve some stuff from a couple of sun3 boxes, but that's trivial
>> compared to the hassle it was to read the uVax drive and it scsi as well.
>>
>> I've kept the drives in most cases, which must rate pretty high on the
>> sadness scale :-)...
>>
>
> You don't even rate until you have constructed a separate building on
> your property and have it stuffed with computer equipment. Not the
> garage, but another building that is a "ware" house. :)
>
Dang!!! There was someone who used to post *regularly* to
<a.f.c.>... that had such a "computer shack" complete with
electricity and internet service to run his machines. I just can
*not* remember *who* it was...
> The only thing worse is actually leasing storage space for computer
> equipment that is not even as valuable as the amount you're paying to
> store it!
I know a guy who leases storage units and saves pretty much
*everything* that he has ever had in his life. The only exception
is that once he gave me a bunch of his old computer magazines. I
suppose it's *not* the monetary value but the sentimental value
that the items represent to him.
Charles Richmond
> In article
> <8242ea60-5560-47c8...@s21g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
> pne.c...@comcast.net (Eric Chomko) writes:
>
>> On Oct 29, 9:39 am, ChrisQ <m...@devnull.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've kept the drives in most cases, which must rate pretty high on
>>> the sadness scale :-)...
>> You don't even rate until you have constructed a separate building
>> on your property and have it stuffed with computer equipment. Not
>> the garage, but another building that is a "ware" house. :)
>>
>> The only thing worse is actually leasing storage space for computer
>> equipment that is not even as valuable as the amount you're paying
>> to store it!
>
> My stuff - various tapes, disk packs, manuals, a TTY35RO, a pair
> of UNISERVO VI-C tape drives, etc. - now shares a hangar with
> an airplane that's even older. My wife was the driving force
> behind getting the hangar - it enabled us to move all that stuff
> out of the house.
>
> And it gives me a handy location for off-site storage of backups.
>
And quite conveniently, you get to lose over 100 pounds of weight,
by getting your wife "off your back" about getting all that old
"computer junk" out of the house... ;-)
One of my wife's favorite refrains is: "That thing doesn't even
work!!! Get rid of it!!!"
About the only way I have to get any leeway here... is that I
keep her laptop working and on our wifi network. :-)
Charlie Gibbs
(Charles Richmond) writes:
> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> My stuff - various tapes, disk packs, manuals, a TTY35RO, a pair
>> of UNISERVO VI-C tape drives, etc. - now shares a hangar with
>> an airplane that's even older. My wife was the driving force
>> behind getting the hangar - it enabled us to move all that stuff
>> out of the house.
>>
>> And it gives me a handy location for off-site storage of backups.
>
> And quite conveniently, you get to lose over 100 pounds of weight,
> by getting your wife "off your back" about getting all that old
> "computer junk" out of the house... ;-)
:-)
> One of my wife's favorite refrains is: "That thing doesn't even
> work!!! Get rid of it!!!"
My wife's attitude has softened somewhat now that the stuff isn't
underfoot all the time. In fact, she can now even appreciate its
historical significance.
> About the only way I have to get any leeway here... is that I
> keep her laptop working and on our wifi network. :-)
I'm too old and stodgy to have gone to wifi yet - my wife's laptop
is hardwired into our LAN. But yes, I do keep it working - and
some of those offsite backups I mentioned above are hers.
John Varela
<cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> My stuff - various tapes, disk packs, manuals, a TTY35RO, a pair
> of UNISERVO VI-C tape drives, etc. - now shares a hangar with
> an airplane that's even older. My wife was the driving force
> behind getting the hangar - it enabled us to move all that stuff
> out of the house.
You kept an airplane in the house?
--
John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email
Eric Chomko
> > pne.cho...@comcast.net (Eric Chomko) writes:
>
> >> On Oct 29, 9:39 am, ChrisQ <m...@devnull.com> wrote:
>
> >>> I've kept the drives in most cases, which must rate pretty high on
> >>> the sadness scale :-)...
> >> You don't even rate until you have constructed a separate building
> >> on your property and have it stuffed with computer equipment. Not
> >> the garage, but another building that is a "ware" house. :)
>
> >> The only thing worse is actually leasing storage space for computer
> >> equipment that is not even as valuable as the amount you're paying
> >> to store it!
>
> > My stuff - various tapes, disk packs, manuals, a TTY35RO, a pair
> > of UNISERVO VI-C tape drives, etc. - now shares a hangar with
> > an airplane that's even older. My wife was the driving force
> > behind getting the hangar - it enabled us to move all that stuff
> > out of the house.
>
> > And it gives me a handy location for off-site storage of backups.
>
> And quite conveniently, you get to lose over 100 pounds of weight,
> by getting your wife "off your back" about getting all that old
> "computer junk" out of the house... ;-)
>
> One of my wife's favorite refrains is: "That thing doesn't even
> work!!! Get rid of it!!!"
>
> About the only way I have to get any leeway here... is that I
> keep her laptop working and on our wifi network. :-)
>
Yep, went and bought one of those for the upstairs in the new house.
Big 18 inch Toshiba. She loves it. Now she doesn't have to see the
"dungeon". downstairs. :)
Eric Chomko
> In article <hce8l7$gt...@news.eternal-september.org>, friz...@tx.rr.com
>
> (Charles Richmond) writes:
> > Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
> >> My stuff - various tapes, disk packs, manuals, a TTY35RO, a pair
> >> of UNISERVO VI-C tape drives, etc. - now shares a hangar with
> >> an airplane that's even older. My wife was the driving force
> >> behind getting the hangar - it enabled us to move all that stuff
> >> out of the house.
>
> >> And it gives me a handy location for off-site storage of backups.
>
> > And quite conveniently, you get to lose over 100 pounds of weight,
> > by getting your wife "off your back" about getting all that old
> > "computer junk" out of the house... ;-)
>
> :-)
>
> > One of my wife's favorite refrains is: "That thing doesn't even
> > work!!! Get rid of it!!!"
>
> My wife's attitude has softened somewhat now that the stuff isn't
> underfoot all the time. In fact, she can now even appreciate its
> historical significance.
I haven't reached that state yet.
> > About the only way I have to get any leeway here... is that I
> > keep her laptop working and on our wifi network. :-)
>
> I'm too old and stodgy to have gone to wifi yet - my wife's laptop
> is hardwired into our LAN. But yes, I do keep it working - and
> some of those offsite backups I mentioned above are hers.
>
Wifi is as cheap as wired these days. I still stay wired downstairs,
but wireless is the way to go.
D.J.
<pne.c...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Wifi is as cheap as wired these days. I still stay wired downstairs,
>but wireless is the way to go.
I don't trust the alleged security of wifi.
JimP.
--
Brushing aside the thorns so I can see the stars.
http://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ Drive-In movie theaters
http://poetry.drivein-jim.net/ Aug 26, 2009
Mensanator
wrote:
> "Mensanator" <mensana...@aol.com> wrote in message
No excuse. Get one. Cameras are a dime a dozen. There are
free sites where you load pictures.
Otherwise, don't expect help if you won't make any effort
to help yourself.
Charlie Gibbs
OLDl...@verizon.net (John Varela) writes:
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 04:56:54 UTC, "Charlie Gibbs"
> <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> My stuff - various tapes, disk packs, manuals, a TTY35RO, a pair
>> of UNISERVO VI-C tape drives, etc. - now shares a hangar with
>> an airplane that's even older. My wife was the driving force
>> behind getting the hangar - it enabled us to move all that stuff
>> out of the house.
>
> You kept an airplane in the house?
I wish. Those fly-in communities look like the ultimate in cool.
Fortunately, there's a good local airport 15 minutes away.
Charlie Gibbs
<b23dff70-5fe9-4c92...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
pne.c...@comcast.net (Eric Chomko) writes:
It's not the cost. As a matter of fact, both my wife's laptop and
my new ADSL modem have wifi built in - and they stay turned off,
because my concern is not with cost, but with security. My fears
may be groundless, but I don't have time to study wifi security
to re-assure myself of that. Besides, one evening a friend brought
over a laptop with wifi activated - I found a couple of unprotected
hot spots, and got around my ISP's bandwidth limit by overnight
downloading 6 gigabytes of stuff on some unknown victim's account.
Bernd Felsche
>>> I'm too old and stodgy to have gone to wifi yet - my wife's laptop
>>> is hardwired into our LAN. ï¿œBut yes, I do keep it working - and
>>> some of those offsite backups I mentioned above are hers.
>> Wifi is as cheap as wired these days. I still stay wired downstairs,
>> but wireless is the way to go.
>It's not the cost. As a matter of fact, both my wife's laptop and
>my new ADSL modem have wifi built in - and they stay turned off,
>because my concern is not with cost, but with security. My fears
>may be groundless, but I don't have time to study wifi security
Caution is advisable. WPA/2 setup may be weak. Regular (frequent)
changing of keys is one way to minimise risks. I'm not awawre of
anybody who changes the keys on a regular basis on their WPA2
networks; because it's too much hassle changing the keys on the
legitimate clients.
WEP is a sad joke. It is useful for things like weather stations
where non-private and "free", unimportant information is being handled.
But you need to be aware of insertion attacks if the data are more
than curiosity.
Wireless networks can be secured; inside a Faraday cage.
>to re-assure myself of that. Besides, one evening a friend brought
>over a laptop with wifi activated - I found a couple of unprotected
>hot spots, and got around my ISP's bandwidth limit by overnight
>downloading 6 gigabytes of stuff on some unknown victim's account.
Perhaps a million people do that sort of thing every day in Australia.
Quite illegally. Heavy penalties under the Crimes Act. The same
clauses that protect wired networks ... the media for unauthorised
insertion/deletion/altering of data into a computer system are not
limited.
Largely unpoliced.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | Those who can make you believe absurdities
X against HTML mail | can make you commit atrocities.
/ \ and postings | -- Voltaire
Michael Black
> On Oct 28, 8:24 pm, "computergal" <computer...@idontknowwhattodo.org>
> wrote:
>> "Mensanator" <mensana...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:63e804cf-834a-44c7...@l31g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>> On Oct 28, 7:20 pm, "computergal" <computer...@idontknowwhattodo.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hey, this is the 21st century. Take some pictures with your
>> digital camera and post them on your web site.
>>
>> Digital camera? Web Site?
>
> No excuse. Get one. Cameras are a dime a dozen. There are
> free sites where you load pictures.
>
And to stay on topic, one could use an old digital camera. I have an
Apple camera that I figure came from about 1994, that I got at a rummage
sale for a couple of dollars, complete with the battery compartment cover
missing (when the Apple store opened here a couple of years ago, I wanted
to take the camera in to see if they could supply a new cover). I guess
it's a sub-megapixel camera, and no memory card. That does qualify as
"old" in terms of digital cameras, moreso than a 1995 computer.
And one could do away with the webpage, just use ftp.
Michael
Chris Barts
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:18:03 -0700 (PDT), Eric Chomko
> <pne.c...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>Wifi is as cheap as wired these days. I still stay wired downstairs,
>>but wireless is the way to go.
>
> I don't trust the alleged security of wifi.
Nor should you. Use SSH tunnels and/or file encryption for any data you
want to remain secure. Security isn't supposed to be implemented at the
link layer anyway; it /could/ have been, in a different world, but that
isn't the world we reside in.
Mensanator
I got my camera in 1997. Not fancy, but works good
enough for my needs. My entire web page is shot
with that camera.
Except for
http://mensanator.com/mensanator/vinyl/vinyl.htm
It couldn't handle taking fluorescent pictures.
Something to look for when shopping for a
new camera. :-)
>
> And one could do away with the webpage, just use ftp.
If really hard pressed, you could create a Google Group
and store the files there.
>
> � � �Michael
Mike Spencer
Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> wrote:
> And to stay on topic, one could use an old digital camera.
I have a Kodak DC40. Takes ordinary batteries, Only has three buttons.
Has great colors. I keep a Slackware Linux/Win 3.1 dual boot box to
run the Win 3.1 software that downloads the pics. The d/l serial
cable cost more than the camera -- $20 vs $5.
Last time I used it in public, someone said, with the greatest
incredulity, '**THAT** is a digital camera??" *He* had a gizmo half the
size of a SLR with dozens of tiny knobs and buttons that cost several
hundred bucks. Gak!
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Chris Barts <chbarts...@gmail.com> writes:
> Nor should you. Use SSH tunnels and/or file encryption for any data you
> want to remain secure. Security isn't supposed to be implemented at the
> link layer anyway; it /could/ have been, in a different world, but that
> isn't the world we reside in.
the internal network use to be larger than the arpanet/internet from
just about the beginning until sometime possibly late 85 or early 86.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet
in the mid-80s, there was comment that the internal network had over
half of all the (hardware) link encryptors in the world (provided the
revenue for whole crypto companies).
I was looking for something more powerful and versatile for HSDT ...
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#hsdt
old email that to do software DES on T1 link ... would require a
dedicated 3081 processor for the traffic in each direction (two 3081
processors dedicated for supporting DES encryption on full-duplex T1
link).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006n.html#email841115
in this post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006n.html#36
for misc. other crypto related old email
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#crypto
including discussion of PGP-like implementation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007d.html#email810506
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email810515
a couple posts about being faced with three kinds of crypto
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008h.html#87 New test attempt
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008i.html#86 Own a piece of the crypto wars
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008j.html#43 What is "timesharing" (Re: OS X Finder windows vs terminal window weirdness)
--
40+yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970
Walter Bushell
"Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> In article <dxizd0mOwXzR-pn2-zU4T4zwFbV7Q@localhost>,
> OLDl...@verizon.net (John Varela) writes:
>
> > On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 04:56:54 UTC, "Charlie Gibbs"
> > <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> My stuff - various tapes, disk packs, manuals, a TTY35RO, a pair
> >> of UNISERVO VI-C tape drives, etc. - now shares a hangar with
> >> an airplane that's even older. My wife was the driving force
> >> behind getting the hangar - it enabled us to move all that stuff
> >> out of the house.
> >
> > You kept an airplane in the house?
>
> I wish. Those fly-in communities look like the ultimate in cool.
> Fortunately, there's a good local airport 15 minutes away.
A private residence only reachable by air. You will not be bothered by
the average bugler.
--
A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.
Walter Bushell
Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> wrote:
<http://www.tuaw.com/2009/07/29/retro-apple-the-quicktake-100-digital-cam
era/>
Has a write up. Needs a serial port, but the manual was apparently still
up.
Chris Adams
>A private residence only reachable by air. You will not be bothered by
>the average bugler.
Depending on the terrain, a bugler can be heard a long distance.
--
Chris Adams <cma...@hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
Mensanator
Have you seen those new cameras with an LCD screen
on the front as well as the back of the camera?
So you can exhaust your batteries twice as fast with
no practical benefit.
Michael Black
No, that's a narcissistic-cam. I have a 2mp variant from some years back,
the LCD can be folded out so you can aim the camera at yourself and see
the picture. So important when taking pictures of yourself.
I admit the new DSLR one has some sort of "movie" that can be played to
keep children entertained while the camera is taking the picture.
Michael
Patrick Scheible
Or the average plumber, electrician, or paramedic crew, should you
ever need to call them.
-- Patrick
Stan Barr
>>
> And to stay on topic, one could use an old digital camera. I have an=20
> Apple camera that I figure came from about 1994, that I got at a rummage=20
> sale for a couple of dollars, complete with the battery compartment cover=
>=20
> missing (when the Apple store opened here a couple of years ago, I wanted=
>=20
> to take the camera in to see if they could supply a new cover). I guess=20
> it's a sub-megapixel camera, and no memory card. That does qualify as=20
> "old" in terms of digital cameras, moreso than a 1995 computer.
>
I have one of those bought new 1994. 640x480 pixels, my phone has a
better camera now.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr plan.b .at. dsl .dot. pipex .dot. com
The future was never like this!
Charlie Gibbs
cma...@hiwaay.net (Chris Adams) writes:
> Once upon a time, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> said:
>
>> A private residence only reachable by air. You will not be bothered
>> by the average bugler.
>
> Depending on the terrain, a bugler can be heard a long distance.
We used to have a neighbour two doors down who played bagpipes -
fortunately, only on Saturday afternoons.
Joe Morris
> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>It's not the cost. As a matter of fact, both my wife's laptop and
>>my new ADSL modem have wifi built in - and they stay turned off,
>>because my concern is not with cost, but with security. My fears
>>may be groundless, but I don't have time to study wifi security
>
> Caution is advisable. WPA/2 setup may be weak. Regular (frequent)
> changing of keys is one way to minimise risks. I'm not awawre of
> anybody who changes the keys on a regular basis on their WPA2
> networks; because it's too much hassle changing the keys on the
> legitimate clients.
>
> WEP is a sad joke. It is useful for things like weather stations
> where non-private and "free", unimportant information is being handled.
> But you need to be aware of insertion attacks if the data are more
> than curiosity.
One improvement over the past few years (not much of an improvement, but
every little bit helps) has been the ISPs who send new customers
WiFi-capable routers as part of their initial setup package. For far too
long the routers were pre-configured with WiFi enabled but all encryption
disabled...the consequences of that are of course obvious to us, but not at
all to the general public.
The new boxes I've looked at in the past few years at least come with WEP
set up (with the key on a sticker on the box).
Unfortunately, I can make an argument for WEP being useful: in far too many
areas there are so many unencrypted access points that someone looking for a
signal to poach has no need to go through even the rather trivial process of
breaking an AP that's using WEP encryption.
Of course, the above comment doesn't apply if someone is actively trying to
get into *your* system, but the typical residential installation will
probably be sort-of secure even with WEP. Recall the basic concept of data
protection: it should make the effort required for the bad guys to get your
data more expensive than the data is worth.
OTOH, if you've got something that they really want (e.g., a report of who
in Congress is currently being investigated) and the deep-pocket intruders
know it's on your machine ... well, you get the idea. Yes, I know that was
p2p-based extrusion, not involving WiFi - but the concept is still valid.
A big problem with Wi-Fi encryption (WEP, WPA, or WPA2) is that vendors have
nothing resembling a standard for the user interface through which the
encryption is set up on either the access point or the computer. The result
is that a non-technical end user is presented with a bewildering set of
options with no common guidance on how to choose from the available options,
nor any guidance on how to select a consistent set of options on both ends.
An all-too-common result is that users wind up using whatever encryption (if
any) was configured when the equipment came out of the box.
It's been a couple of years since I last set up my wireless audit box and
drove around my neighborhood (western Fairfax County, VA) and work area
(Tysons Corner). Last time I did it the results were highly depressing for
anyone interested in security. One surprising result from the last time: in
the thousands of access points I found exactly *one* had an SSID name you
would not want the kiddies to see - and it was *not* in a fraternity or
dormitory neighborhood.
Joe
Joe Morris
> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> > OLDl...@verizon.net (John Varela) writes:
> > > You kept an airplane in the house?
> > I wish. Those fly-in communities look like the ultimate in cool.
> > Fortunately, there's a good local airport 15 minutes away.
> A private residence only reachable by air. You will not be bothered by
> the average bugler [sic].
Fly-in residential communities have a common landing strip and each house
has a hangar, but they are still reachable by road. You may have noticed
that there are days when even the ducks are walking.
Remember that not everybody who lives there will be a licensed pilot, or
qualified to teach someone who isn't. (And consider the worry level
generated when a teenager asks "{Mom,Dad}, can I have the keys to the plane
tonight?")
Joe Morris
Charles Richmond
> In article <R_GdnQb3X_mX2nHX...@posted.hiwaay2>,
> cma...@hiwaay.net (Chris Adams) writes:
>
>> Once upon a time, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> said:
>>
>>> A private residence only reachable by air. You will not be bothered
>>> by the average bugler.
>> Depending on the terrain, a bugler can be heard a long distance.
>
> We used to have a neighbour two doors down who played bagpipes -
> fortunately, only on Saturday afternoons.
>
"A gentleman is a man who knows how to play the bagpipes... and
does *not*." ;-)
Michael Black
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 20:55:01 -0400, Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> wrote:
>>>
>> And to stay on topic, one could use an old digital camera. I have an=20
>> Apple camera that I figure came from about 1994, that I got at a rummage=20
>> sale for a couple of dollars, complete with the battery compartment cover=
>> =20
>> missing (when the Apple store opened here a couple of years ago, I wanted=
>> =20
>> to take the camera in to see if they could supply a new cover). I guess=20
>> it's a sub-megapixel camera, and no memory card. That does qualify as=20
>> "old" in terms of digital cameras, moreso than a 1995 computer.
>>
>
> I have one of those bought new 1994. 640x480 pixels, my phone has a
> better camera now.
>
And surely you paid a pretty penny. Someone gave me a 1.6MP DSLR a few
years ago, and I felt really guilty since it must have been so expensive
when new.
Michael
ChrisQ
>
> It's been a couple of years since I last set up my wireless audit box and
> drove around my neighborhood (western Fairfax County, VA) and work area
> (Tysons Corner). Last time I did it the results were highly depressing for
> anyone interested in security. One surprising result from the last time: in
> the thousands of access points I found exactly *one* had an SSID name you
> would not want the kiddies to see - and it was *not* in a fraternity or
> dormitory neighborhood.
>
There's an nsa public domain document on the web that describes how to
harden a wireless network. One of the things I remember was to disable
the ssid broadcast. Also, disable dhcp and use fixed ip addresses with
mac address filtered access only. It's worth a look, though may be a bit
out of date now.
None of it make the net completely secure, but it does tend to keep out
the casual hackers...
Regards,
Chris
John Varela
wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 20:55:01 -0400, Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> wrote:
> >>
> > And to stay on topic, one could use an old digital camera. I have an=20
> > Apple camera that I figure came from about 1994, that I got at a rummage=20
> > sale for a couple of dollars, complete with the battery compartment cover=
> >=20
> > missing (when the Apple store opened here a couple of years ago, I wanted=
> >=20
> > to take the camera in to see if they could supply a new cover). I guess=20
> > it's a sub-megapixel camera, and no memory card. That does qualify as=20
> > "old" in terms of digital cameras, moreso than a 1995 computer.
> >
>
> I have one of those bought new 1994. 640x480 pixels, my phone has a
> better camera now.
More pixels does not guarantee a better camera. What quality is the
lens in your phone?
--
John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email
Joe Morris
You're probably thinking of the STIGs ("Secure Technical Implementation
Guides"); the wireless STIG has been recently updated:
http://iase.disa.mil/stigs/stig/wireless_stig_v6r1_6aug2009.zip
Note that this is a public site even though it's in the .MIL domain.
And I have to note that MAC filtering is only an irritation to a hacker with
any real smarts...although vendors continue to brag about how secure it
makes your system. I recently sat through sales pitches from a number of
sales-pitch presentations about top-end NAC (Network Access Control)
products (my POE is rearchitecting its network security structure), and they
all said we could reliably identify authorized computers by using a only a
table of valid MAC addresses...
Joe Morris
Walter Bushell
You have the reason why you never buy or sell a computer to a friend.
Both of you will feel cheated.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
"Joe Morris" <j.c.m...@verizon.net> writes:
> You're probably thinking of the STIGs ("Secure Technical Implementation
> Guides"); the wireless STIG has been recently updated:
>
> http://iase.disa.mil/stigs/stig/wireless_stig_v6r1_6aug2009.zip
>
> Note that this is a public site even though it's in the .MIL domain.
>
> And I have to note that MAC filtering is only an irritation to a hacker with
> any real smarts...although vendors continue to brag about how secure it
> makes your system. I recently sat through sales pitches from a number of
> sales-pitch presentations about top-end NAC (Network Access Control)
> products (my POE is rearchitecting its network security structure), and they
> all said we could reliably identify authorized computers by using a only a
> table of valid MAC addresses...
when we were doing HA/CMP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp
... we did a lot of work with ip-address take-over; one server fails
... another server takes its place and assumes the first servers
ip-address.
we had a problem with a bug in bsd 4.3 reno/tahoe implementation used by
majority of the platforms. ARP protocol specifies that client sends out
ARP broadcast, requesting MAC address for corresponding ip-address. The
response is saved in ARP table (mapping of ip-addresses to
mac-addresses). ARP protocol requires that the entries in the ARP table
time-out periodically (relatively short interval). The time-out results
in clients eventually re-issuing ARP broadcast and gets back the MAC
address for the take-over server.
The "bug" was that there was performance optimization, the ip-layer code
saved the result from call to ARP table code. The next entry to ip-layer
code, it would check if the ip-address was the same as the saved
ip-address (from previous execution) ... and use that saved MAC address.
This value never timed out ... and only changed if the client had tcp/ip
communication with some other ip-address. There is lots & lots of client
activity that that goes for extended periods only communicating with the
same server (or possibly the same router) ... resulting in the "saved"
(MAC) value never timing out. This "bug" existed in millions of
platforms from large number of different vendors ... and there was no
reasonable expectation to having it corrected in any reasonable period
of time.
So a work&around ... was to have "take-over" server to send out
broadcast from some other ip-address ... trying to prod all the clients
to run through their ip-layer code for some other ip-address (& changing
the saved MAC value). Then the next communication using the take-over
ip-address would result in actually executing the ARP-layer code ... and
eventually associating the correct MAC value.
In any case, we did look at a number of other kinds of implementations
(not necesarily even strictly "HA" oriented) that went to using adatper
cards that had software setable MAC addresses ... as means of addressing
various kinds of issues (including some kinds of non-IP protocols that
have more tightly bound MAC addresses and don't have dynamic ARP-like
layer).
wiki MAC address
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_address
from above:
Although intended to be a permanent and globally unique identification,
it is possible to change the MAC address on most of today's hardware, an
action often referred to as MAC spoofing.
... snip ...
wiki MAC spoofing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_spoofing
and wiki ARP spoofing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARP_spoofing
and "Hacking Techniques in Wireless Networks"
http://www.cs.wright.edu/~pmateti/InternetSecurity/Lectures/WirelessHacks/Mateti-WirelessHacks.htm
ChrisQ
>
> In any case, we did look at a number of other kinds of implementations
> (not necesarily even strictly "HA" oriented) that went to using adatper
> cards that had software setable MAC addresses ... as means of addressing
> various kinds of issues (including some kinds of non-IP protocols that
> have more tightly bound MAC addresses and don't have dynamic ARP-like
> layer).
>
> wiki MAC address
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_address
>
> from above:
>
> Although intended to be a permanent and globally unique identification,
> it is possible to change the MAC address on most of today's hardware, an
> action often referred to as MAC spoofing.
>
> ... snip ...
>
> wiki MAC spoofing
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_spoofing
>
> and wiki ARP spoofing
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARP_spoofing
>
> and "Hacking Techniques in Wireless Networks"
> http://www.cs.wright.edu/~pmateti/InternetSecurity/Lectures/WirelessHacks/Mateti-WirelessHacks.htm
>
Good references :-). Living in a residential area, there were around a
dozen wifi nets locally that could be seen by Netstumbler recently, most
of which had wep or more enabled, but a fair proportion were running no
encryption at all. Mac address spoofing is possible, but unlikely imo
and even if they could hack the wifi box, there's at least one more
level of firewall in the path to the web. It's also on a separate subnet
from the development machines here, which makes 3 layers of firewall and
nat to get through to the server.
Nothing is completely secure though, to a hacker with the time,
equipment and knowledge...
Regards,
Chris
ChrisQ
>
> You're probably thinking of the STIGs ("Secure Technical Implementation
> Guides"); the wireless STIG has been recently updated:
>
> http://iase.disa.mil/stigs/stig/wireless_stig_v6r1_6aug2009.zip
>
> Note that this is a public site even though it's in the .MIL domain.
>
> And I have to note that MAC filtering is only an irritation to a hacker with
> any real smarts...although vendors continue to brag about how secure it
> makes your system. I recently sat through sales pitches from a number of
> sales-pitch presentations about top-end NAC (Network Access Control)
> products (my POE is rearchitecting its network security structure), and they
> all said we could reliably identify authorized computers by using a only a
> table of valid MAC addresses...
Thanks for the reference, have just updated my copy.
Agreed about hackers as well, but the chance of it being a serious
threat in a residential area with many other wifi nets, some of which
have no encryption, must be fairly minimal. If the funny people want to
get into the machines, they probably will anyway, but that's probably as
far as it goes...
Regards,
Chris
Stan Barr
The resulting photos are much better than the old Apple Quickake. The
pixels on the sensors are so big that lens resolultion isn't a problem
anyway.
sidd
> The "bug" was that there was performance optimization, the ip-layer code
> saved the result from call to ARP table code. The next entry to ip-layer
> code, it would check if the ip-address was the same as the saved
> ip-address (from previous execution) ... and use that saved MAC address.
> This value never timed out ... and only changed if the client had tcp/ip
> communication with some other ip-address.
been bitten by this too.. in some cases i have the replacement machine take
over the IP and the MAC
last time was about a year ago
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> been bitten by this too.. in some cases i have the replacement machine take
> over the IP and the MAC
>
> last time was about a year ago
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009p.html#40 Wireless security (somehow thread-drifted from Re: Getting Out Hard Drive in Real Old Computer)
bsd4.3 tahoe is more than 20yrs old ... bits and pieces from the tar
distribution:
1988-10-10 21:35 arp.c
1988-09-20 00:19 Makefile
1988-09-20 00:08 arp.8
William Hamblen
<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>I have a Kodak DC40. Takes ordinary batteries, Only has three buttons.
>Has great colors. I keep a Slackware Linux/Win 3.1 dual boot box to
>run the Win 3.1 software that downloads the pics. The d/l serial
>cable cost more than the camera -- $20 vs $5.
>
>Last time I used it in public, someone said, with the greatest
>incredulity, '**THAT** is a digital camera??" *He* had a gizmo half the
>size of a SLR with dozens of tiny knobs and buttons that cost several
>hundred bucks. Gak!
We used to use those things at work. I think we paid about $750
apiece for them. If you took a lot of pictures with the flash turned
on the camera could catch fire.
Bud
jmfbahciv
and his plane would have to use hot air for fuel.
/BAH
Charlie Gibbs
writes:
Hmm, I gotta get that "hot air fuel" thing worked out. Given our
federal and provincial politicians, I'd have a lifetime supply.
Eric Chomko
> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009, Eric Chomko wrote:
> > On Oct 29, 8:34 am, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+n...@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 2009-10-29, computergal wrote:
> >>> I have an very old AT&T Globalyst 375T PC from 1995.
>
> >> 1995 is "very old" now? I feel old. (Although I did shut down
> >> my ~1995 AST Premmia in 2005.)
>
> >> ...
>
> >>> I never seen a hard drive affixed this way before. The computer does not
> >>> have ethernet, usb capability or direct cable capability. The only way I am
> >>> going to be able to get the info off the hard drive is to either burn some
> >>> CD's or take another computer and hook its cables up to the old computer to
> >>> read the hard drive. All a pain in the butt.
>
> >> Well, to me that last alternative doesn't sound too bad: open both
> >> computers, hook up a longish IDE cable, boot up the target and dump
> >> the disk to file (preferably both as an image and as a tar/cpio
> >> archive).
>
> >> Of course, if you have one of those IDE->USB enclosures, getting the
> >> disk loose is more attractive. Or maybe it's SCSI?
>
> >> Either way, I suggest smashing the disk afterwards; otherwise you'll
> >> find it in 2015 and wonder if you really have a copy of it ...
>
> > Or you can tape a note on the drive stating what is on it and that you
> > have in fact backed up the drive.
>
> No use a marker and write directly on the drive.
>
You can write on the drive, I'll add a hardcopy of something like the
following:
10/13/2009 04:04 PM <DIR> .
10/13/2009 04:04 PM <DIR> ..
09/03/2009 03:03 PM <DIR> 6809 code
10/13/2009 04:04 PM 75,590 800px-PCI_Keying.png
06/02/2009 11:01 AM <DIR> Amiga_DOS
06/02/2009 11:01 AM <DIR> Apple2
04/23/2009 12:52 PM <DIR> Atari 2600
02/19/2009 02:21 PM 348,445 Atari_Falcon030_LHmod.jpg
06/02/2009 11:01 AM <DIR> BeOS
06/02/2009 11:01 AM <DIR> Commodore 128
05/05/2009 12:22 PM <DIR> Commodore docs
03/31/2009 01:56 PM 566,187 edsacposter.pdf
09/25/2009 02:31 PM 458,146 eMate_purchase.jpg
10/15/2008 03:49 PM 95,295 Gimix_system_eBayISAPI.dll.htm
10/15/2008 03:49 PM <DIR>
Gimix_system_eBayISAPI.dll_files
06/30/2009 02:38 PM <DIR> history
10/28/2009 11:46 AM <DIR> IBM_PC
04/06/2009 11:27 AM <DIR> NeXT
11/02/2009 03:40 PM <DIR> SWTPC
02/18/2009 12:36 PM 51,802 teletype.jpg
09/25/2009 02:30 PM 225,763 teletype_machine.jpg
06/02/2009 11:06 AM <DIR> Televideo
7 File(s) 1,821,228 bytes
15 Dir(s) 96,031,129,600 bytes free
The directory listing is from my collectible computers folder, that's
why it's so interesting. :)
Eric
Jorgen Grahn
> On Oct 29, 8:34�am, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+n...@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>> Either way, I suggest smashing the disk afterwards; otherwise you'll
>> find it in 2015 and wonder if you really have a copy of it ...
> Or you can tape a note on the drive stating what is on it and that you
> have in fact backed up the drive.
Yeah, but if you have a backup -- or rather a new master copy -- the
drive fills no purpose, and its continued existence can only hurt the
user, IMHO. In *this* particular case.
Somewhat related: just the other day, I hunted for a file I
knew existed somewhere. (It was a listing of the flora of
Kinneved parish, written by my brother ten years ago). I found
it eventually, in a drive image dumped from my Commodore Amiga
when I stopped using it. It's a good thing that Linux can
still loopback-mount Amiga FFS file systems ...
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Eric Chomko
> On Thu, 2009-10-29, Eric Chomko wrote:
> > On Oct 29, 8:34 am, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+n...@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> ...
> >> Either way, I suggest smashing the disk afterwards; otherwise you'll
> >> find it in 2015 and wonder if you really have a copy of it ...
> > Or you can tape a note on the drive stating what is on it and that you
> > have in fact backed up the drive.
>
> Yeah, but if you have a backup -- or rather a new master copy -- the
> drive fills no purpose, and its continued existence can only hurt the
> user, IMHO. In *this* particular case.
Then reformat the drive and list it on eBay under "vintage computing".
>
> Somewhat related: just the other day, I hunted for a file I
> knew existed somewhere. (It was a listing of the flora of
> Kinneved parish, written by my brother ten years ago). I found
> it eventually, in a drive image dumped from my Commodore Amiga
> when I stopped using it. It's a good thing that Linux can
> still loopback-mount Amiga FFS file systems ...
>
You'd a had more fun buying an Amiga from "vintage computing" on eBay
and recovering it that way. :)
Morten Reistad
D.J. <jollyc...@cableone.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:18:03 -0700 (PDT), Eric Chomko
><pne.c...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>Wifi is as cheap as wired these days. I still stay wired downstairs,
>>but wireless is the way to go.
>
>I don't trust the alleged security of wifi.
I don't trust the alleged security of ANY link layer medium. OK,
the military single mode fibers in argon-protected conduits with
oxygen sensors should help. But they are rarely standard issue.
So I run encryption for anything significant. At least aes-128
and SHA256, To a secure server, running another secure link to
another server.
And then I run another layer of encrypted protocols on top of that
as part of the application.
And I am pondering shutting down ipv4 on the wireless lans. I
just have to get wifes computer fully ready to cope with a six-only
network.
I'll probably open the access points then, and see how the h4x0rs
handle the brave new internet.It may actually teach them something.
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
computergal <compu...@idontknowwhattodo.org> wrote:
>Update:
>
>I have finally found the old manual which says:
>
>"The original hard disk drive sits in a drive bracket that is mounted inside
>the computer.
>This entire assembly is held in place by a clip. Press the clip to release
>it and lift the
>entire drive bracket from the computer."
>
>Well, I have pressed and lifted and nadda, zip, nothing.
>
>Hard drive and enclosure still stuck in there.
And, once you get it out, how do you plan to read it?
If this is 1995 then the formatting on the drive may be
pretty interesting. With IDE, ATA, SCSI you have a more or
less standard way to read blocks off the drive, and you "just"
have to decode the filesystem. Here you can find lots of
public information and more or less well documented open
source programs to help you.
With Eide(?), ST506 and similar drives they took the ideas from
SMD/ESMD style disks, and have two interfaces. One digital
on a bus cable for control, and one, *analogue* one for data.
Yep, the controller has to detect sync, gaps, framing and
decode tracks and sectors. This is an area where we have
previously concluded that the sacrifice of a few goats,
or grad students, may be in place.
>"computergal" <compu...@idontknowwhattodo.org> wrote in message
>news:hcan47$c3g$1...@aioe.org...
>>I have an very old AT&T Globalyst 375T PC from 1995. I held on to it over
>>the years because I wanted to take the hard drive out as it contained
>>confidential information. Well, today I finally decided to do it.
If it is a plain PC you may be able to use a serial port and kermit;
or you may install a laplink cable, or you may install a nic, with
drivers. In increasing measurements of complexity, and speed.
On a serial port at 38400 you will be able to transfer 30 megabytes
per day with kermit.
>> Got the case off, disconnected the cable and the power cord from the hard
>> drive and looked for the screws that connected the hard drive to the box
>> containing it that was affixed to the case. And I looked and I looked.
>> Although the hard drive had screws in it, they weren't the screws
>> connecting the hard drive to the box. Although the drive and the box
>> were firmly affixed to the frame, no screws were doing the job.
>>
>> Then I saw what looked like metal clips, more like wings that might be
>> holding the box in place. So I tried to manipulate this clips/wings,
>> pushing and pulling gently but it was firm. Then I though that the box
>> containing the hard drive would slip out. No that didn't work.
>>
>> I never seen a hard drive affixed this way before. The computer does not
>> have ethernet, usb capability or direct cable capability. The only way I
>> am going to be able to get the info off the hard drive is to either burn
>> some CD's or take another computer and hook its cables up to the old
>> computer to read the hard drive. All a pain in the butt.
>>
>> So anybody remember anything about this kind of construction and tell me
>> how to unfasten the hard drive. I thought there was a chance somebody
>> would know..
You say "the cable". Is it scsi, eide, ata, ide?
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
Eric Chomko <pne.c...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On Oct 29, 9:39�am, ChrisQ <m...@devnull.com> wrote:
>> Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>>
>You don't even rate until you have constructed a separate building on
>your property and have it stuffed with computer equipment. Not the
>garage, but another building that is a "ware" house. :)
>
>The only thing worse is actually leasing storage space for computer
>equipment that is not even as valuable as the amount you're paying to
>store it!
And the higher ratings are reserved for those who broker deals with
power companies (several!) to get energised electrons to run the
stuff. And then broker deals with municipal utilities to sell the
excess heat.
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
Joe Morris <j.c.m...@verizon.net> wrote:
>"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote:
>> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> WEP is a sad joke. It is useful for things like weather stations
>> where non-private and "free", unimportant information is being handled.
>> But you need to be aware of insertion attacks if the data are more
>> than curiosity.
>
>One improvement over the past few years (not much of an improvement, but
>every little bit helps) has been the ISPs who send new customers
>WiFi-capable routers as part of their initial setup package. For far too
>long the routers were pre-configured with WiFi enabled but all encryption
>disabled...the consequences of that are of course obvious to us, but not at
>all to the general public.
In the eyes of the law, there are large differences (at least here)
between attempting to get coverage on a fully open wifi zone (which
some systems do as a matter of default installation, without having
to actually do anything else than apply power) and that of breaking a key,
even a very weak one. The owner of the station then has told you that
this is private property; and may change a legal trespass to
breaking and entering. Yes, we have a concept of legal trespass.
Around here, there is a duty to put up a minimum of protection to
make trespassing illegal. You must put up a fence, and some kind
of gate or door with a lock to legally claim you are denying trespass.
If you are just crossing someone else's ungated property, you are
doing a legal trespass. You may not damage anything, take planted crops,
interfere with animals except for personal safety reasons, and you
must not make yourself a nuisance to the owner.
The test used by the courts is if the gates/doors are good enough to
keep out small farm animals, like sheep. There is a precedent for
radio access relating to car openers; and the ruling was that as
long as you stick to standards, and use best current practices you
are not guilty of a trespass.
This would leave wifi access in a grey area, if you see an open
access point. If that access point has an ssid of "PUBLIC" or other
words to that effect the outcome should be clear.
>The new boxes I've looked at in the past few years at least come with WEP
>set up (with the key on a sticker on the box).
>
>Unfortunately, I can make an argument for WEP being useful: in far too many
>areas there are so many unencrypted access points that someone looking for a
>signal to poach has no need to go through even the rather trivial process of
>breaking an AP that's using WEP encryption.
I do a "wardrive" around town every June for a consultant group; they
collect data of access points (we just listen passively for beacons
and open broadcasts) in 25 different places, and publish statistics.
(They specialise in getting paid for this) We also listen for traffic,
but only store aggregates of that traffic.
We see wpa overtaking wep, now more than half of all access points
are wpa; wep is on a rapid decline. Around 22% of all access points
are open. 12-14% seem to be open by design, as public hotspots from
telcos, gas stations, hotels etc.; and there is a core of 5-7% who
never secure their wifi. This has bottomed out at that level from 2006.
In 2001 we saw a peak of 70% unsecured networks, and that dropped
by 10-15% a year until 2006. Then we saw WEP being changed into WPA.
Then there are some 4-5% which seem to be unconnected devices. Either
routers disconnected, but never turned off, printers with wifi, never
used etc.
We also see the noise floor in the 2.4GHz band rise with about 3dB
every year. When we started in 1999 we regularly saw 112dB between
the beacon and the noise. This is what you will see when you are away
in the wilderness today. Now the noise floor is at 74dB in dense Oslo
residential areas, and at 78dB in suburbia and smaller towns. Downtown
in business areas it may go into the sixties. This is of course dampened
indoors.
We got stellar confirmation about what we were seeing when we looked
under heavy fog cover. The noise was down to the high nineties again.
We are seeing the garbled, muted, distant transmissions of tens of
thousands of wifi devices.
Most Ieee802.11 modulations will cease to give useful results if the
noise crawls into the low fifties, and traffic is impaired long before
this.
>Of course, the above comment doesn't apply if someone is actively trying to
>get into *your* system, but the typical residential installation will
>probably be sort-of secure even with WEP. Recall the basic concept of data
>protection: it should make the effort required for the bad guys to get your
>data more expensive than the data is worth.
>
>OTOH, if you've got something that they really want (e.g., a report of who
>in Congress is currently being investigated) and the deep-pocket intruders
>know it's on your machine ... well, you get the idea. Yes, I know that was
>p2p-based extrusion, not involving WiFi - but the concept is still valid.
>
>A big problem with Wi-Fi encryption (WEP, WPA, or WPA2) is that vendors have
>nothing resembling a standard for the user interface through which the
>encryption is set up on either the access point or the computer. The result
>is that a non-technical end user is presented with a bewildering set of
>options with no common guidance on how to choose from the available options,
>nor any guidance on how to select a consistent set of options on both ends.
>An all-too-common result is that users wind up using whatever encryption (if
>any) was configured when the equipment came out of the box.
>
>It's been a couple of years since I last set up my wireless audit box and
>drove around my neighborhood (western Fairfax County, VA) and work area
>(Tysons Corner). Last time I did it the results were highly depressing for
>anyone interested in security. One surprising result from the last time: in
>the thousands of access points I found exactly *one* had an SSID name you
>would not want the kiddies to see - and it was *not* in a fraternity or
>dormitory neighborhood.
I tried this in Holland too (Yes, Holland. Core Holand, just outside
Amsterdam). The density of suburbian accesspoints was simply amazing,
but the secutiy levels were somewhat lower.
-- mrr
Dave Garland
Dave Garland
> Update:
>
> I have finally found the old manual which says:
>
> "The original hard disk drive sits in a drive bracket that is mounted inside
> the computer.
> This entire assembly is held in place by a clip. Press the clip to release
> it and lift the
> entire drive bracket from the computer."
>
> Well, I have pressed and lifted and nadda, zip, nothing.
>
> Hard drive and enclosure still stuck in there.
Gotta be a way, because they got it in there.
But if you can't get the drive out, why not destroy it in place. Just
take an electric drill, and drill completely through the drive and its
internal platters. Voila, confidential information gone, to anyone
without a multimillion dollar budget. If that's not enough, make more
holes, or introduce something corrosive into the hole (in that case,
you might not want to drill clean through the base plate, so as to
retain the caustic substance). Maybe a little muriatic (hydrochloric)
acid, sold in hardware stores, eye protection please, it's dangerous
stuff.
Dave
Michael Black
> But if you can't get the drive out, why not destroy it in place. Just
> take an electric drill, and drill completely through the drive and its
> internal platters. Voila, confidential information gone, to anyone
> without a multimillion dollar budget. If that's not enough, make more
> holes, or introduce something corrosive into the hole (in that case,
> you might not want to drill clean through the base plate, so as to
> retain the caustic substance). Maybe a little muriatic (hydrochloric)
> acid, sold in hardware stores, eye protection please, it's dangerous
> stuff.
>
That's a waste. If someone feels a need to destroy a hard drive, they
should make the proper effort to take it apart and get the magnets out of
them. They aren't those puny magnets you had to live with when you were
a kid, you can do real damage if you get your fingers between two of them.
Michael
Dave Garland
> If someone feels a need to destroy a hard drive, they
> should make the proper effort to take it apart and get the magnets out
> of them. They aren't those puny magnets you had to live with when you
> were a kid, you can do real damage if you get your fingers between two
> of them.
But she's already made a proper effort to get the drive out, without
success, and if I understood the issue correctly she's worried about
the confidential information on it. Yeah, I expect you or I could
figure how to get the drive out, if we had the machine in front of us,
but we don't.
Taking drives apart is fun and educational, the first few times (the
platters are very pretty, too). But when I'm getting rid of drives
that may have sensitive client data on them, I can spend 30 seconds
with an electric drill (drill a 1/4" hole clean through, flip it over
and whack it with a hammer hard enough to destroy the big IC and maybe
the spindle bearing), and then leave it out with the recycle where an
enterprising kid is welcome to grab it and take it home to salvage.
Or I can spend a half hour (includes hunting for the right torx driver
to get the screws out), in exchange for a few pretty platters suitable
for use as wind chimes, and a few magnets that are permanently
attached to metal dohinkies. (The magnets are strong, but I've never
found one strong enough to damage a finger.) But I've already got
lots of those, and I need to make sure the data is dead, and don't
have the time or place to do it in one of those really fun ways that
involve thermite or firearms.
Dave
Peter Flass
> Michael Black wrote:
>
>> If someone feels a need to destroy a hard drive, they
>> should make the proper effort to take it apart and get the magnets out
>> of them. They aren't those puny magnets you had to live with when you
>> were a kid, you can do real damage if you get your fingers between two
>> of them.
>
> But she's already made a proper effort to get the drive out, without
> success,
So, ask a man to do it ;-) <ducking>
ArarghMai...@not.at.arargh.com
wrote:
The magnets in modern drives are nothing.
Ever see the magnets in an old SMD drive?
Bigger than a modern drive.
--
ArarghMail911 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html
To reply by email, remove the extra stuff from the reply address.
Morten Reistad
Dave Garland <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>Michael Black wrote:
>attached to metal dohinkies. (The magnets are strong, but I've never
>found one strong enough to damage a finger.) But I've already got
>lots of those, and I need to make sure the data is dead, and don't
>have the time or place to do it in one of those really fun ways that
>involve thermite or firearms.
>
>Dave
Even the thermite reconfiguration of a drive gets kind of boring,
especially when in the military; with the need to have witnesses,
serial numbers recorded etc; and to follow procedures everywhere.
Could like to do some thermite welding though. That would be cool.
-- mrr
Charles Richmond
> Michael Black wrote:
>
>> If someone feels a need to destroy a hard drive, they
>> should make the proper effort to take it apart and get the magnets out
>> of them. They aren't those puny magnets you had to live with when you
>> were a kid, you can do real damage if you get your fingers between two
>> of them.
>
> But she's already made a proper effort to get the drive out, without
> success, and if I understood the issue correctly she's worried about
> the confidential information on it. Yeah, I expect you or I could
> figure how to get the drive out, if we had the machine in front of us,
> but we don't.
>
So use explosives!!! Yeah!!! Yeah!!! Explosives!!! Ka-boooommmmm!!!!
--
+----------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond |
| |
| plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com |
+----------------------------------------+
Walter Bushell
Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> wrote:
> With Eide(?), ST506 and similar drives they took the ideas from
> SMD/ESMD style disks, and have two interfaces. One digital
> on a bus cable for control, and one, *analogue* one for data.
> Yep, the controller has to detect sync, gaps, framing and
> decode tracks and sectors. This is an area where we have
> previously concluded that the sacrifice of a few goats,
> or grad students, may be in place.
You're kidding of course.
jmfbahciv
> computergal wrote:
>> Update:
>>
>> I have finally found the old manual which says:
>>
>> "The original hard disk drive sits in a drive bracket that is mounted inside
>> the computer.
>> This entire assembly is held in place by a clip. Press the clip to release
>> it and lift the
>> entire drive bracket from the computer."
>>
>> Well, I have pressed and lifted and nadda, zip, nothing.
>>
>> Hard drive and enclosure still stuck in there.
>
> Gotta be a way, because they got it in there.
Just _one_ clip? I'd look for two or three, depending on whether
the drive is horizontal or vertical.
There may be gunk which has stuck the two pieces together. This is
when the auld computer gear would get kicked or hit with a hammer ;-).
/BAH
jmfbahciv
He'ld get at it from the front end, not the backend.
/BAH
Patrick Scheible
> In article <smtqs6-...@laptop.reistad.name>,
> Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> wrote:
>
> > With Eide(?), ST506 and similar drives they took the ideas from
> > SMD/ESMD style disks, and have two interfaces. One digital
> > on a bus cable for control, and one, *analogue* one for data.
> > Yep, the controller has to detect sync, gaps, framing and
> > decode tracks and sectors. This is an area where we have
> > previously concluded that the sacrifice of a few goats,
> > or grad students, may be in place.
>
> You're kidding of course.
Of course. Grad students are not valuable enough to make a worthy
sacrifice.
-- Patrick
Morten Reistad
Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <smtqs6-...@laptop.reistad.name>,
> Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> wrote:
>
>> With Eide(?), ST506 and similar drives they took the ideas from
>> SMD/ESMD style disks, and have two interfaces. One digital
>> on a bus cable for control, and one, *analogue* one for data.
>> Yep, the controller has to detect sync, gaps, framing and
>> decode tracks and sectors. This is an area where we have
>> previously concluded that the sacrifice of a few goats,
>> or grad students, may be in place.
>
>You're kidding of course.
Not entirely. Moving such disks, with lots of rewritten tracks
between controllers is a very bad idea. And if you try to
make make long chains of such disks you may want to attend
a vooodoo course first. And if said grad student has the
only copy of the thesis on that disk, you may well make an
effective sacrifice of that student.
Not writing to the moved drive makes it a little better.
Go back around two years and look at the SMD horror story
thread.
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
Charles Richmond <fri...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>Dave Garland wrote:
>> Michael Black wrote:
>>
>>> If someone feels a need to destroy a hard drive, they
>>> should make the proper effort to take it apart and get the magnets out
>>> of them. They aren't those puny magnets you had to live with when you
>>> were a kid, you can do real damage if you get your fingers between two
>>> of them.
>>
>> But she's already made a proper effort to get the drive out, without
>> success, and if I understood the issue correctly she's worried about
>> the confidential information on it. Yeah, I expect you or I could
>> figure how to get the drive out, if we had the machine in front of us,
>> but we don't.
>>
>
>So use explosives!!! Yeah!!! Yeah!!! Explosives!!! Ka-boooommmmm!!!!
But you probably want to burn the explosives in contact with
the electronics, not fire them. The hot fire is a lot more effective
in securing the safety of the confidentiality of the data it carries.
When the whole drive is oxidised there is not much ro recover. But
splinters may be large enough to be readable.
-- mrr
Dave Garland
You really know how to take the fun out of the workplace.
Dave
jmfbahciv
chemists. Those conflicts always created fireworks.
/BAH
Gene Wirchenko
Well, you are supposed to do that sort of thing outside of the
office, no?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Walter Bushell
Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> wrote:
Didn't nobody pick up on kid==young goat?
Charles Richmond
<story>
A Mexican guy once taught me to say "how are you" in Spanish.
He said it is: "Como esta frijole cabrito???"
See, in Spanish, "frijole" means "bean" and "cabrito" is a baby goat.
So "Como esta frijole cabrito?" means "How you bean, kid???"
</story>
Scott Lurndal
I remember one time at SGI (circa 1998) when we acquired a sun pizza box
somehow - took it out in the back parking lot and blew it up. Secret
Service was just cross the creek at Moffet with AF1; figured they must have
heard it too.
scott
Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
>But that is fun! Now you have the physicists fighting with the
>chemists. Those conflicts always created fireworks.
Like
http://xkcd.com/520/
?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> Didn't nobody pick up on kid==young goat?
Well yes butt I just didn't have a good reply.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
jmfbahciv
> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:11:12 -0500
> Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> Didn't nobody pick up on kid==young goat?
>
> Well yes butt I just didn't have a good reply.
>
troll under the bridge.
/BAH
Jorgen Grahn
...
> http://mensanator.com/mensanator/vinyl/vinyl.htm
I couldn't help noticing a copy of The Standell's "Dirty water" there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_Water
Damn, now I'll be humming that song all day.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Gene Wirchenko
No need to be gruff, Barb.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Morten Reistad
SMD devices never gets rid of the trolls. There just has to
be an even number of trolls, properly electrically balanced.
-- mrr
jmfbahciv
so the trolls have gnus for parity checks?
/BAH
jmfbahciv
/BAH
Gene Wirchenko
I will give you THREE tries.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
jmfbahciv
/BAH