How long before Microsoft goes the way of DEC (and in part, IBM)?
invalid
a stranglehold on us, usually go the way of the Dodo.
How long before the computists of the world will no longer pay out
their shekels to Microsoft in order to buy something that they already
have had for years? (ie, No "3dB" (worthwhile) improvement in moving from
Windows WFWG, W95, W98, ME, XP, Vista and now W7)
Linux does not go through a major redesign at each iteration, so what is
it with Microsoft that they must release a whole new raft of bugs each time
that they release yet another version of Windows?
One would think that Microsoft would have been around for long enough
now to have evolved a stable and reliable product. Have Microsoft got
any clue whatsoever about software engineering?
jmfbahciv
you change your assumptions to reflect this fact, then everything
they do w.r.t. what they ship makes sense.
/BAH
Stephen Wolstenholme
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>One would think that Microsoft would have been around for long enough
>now to have evolved a stable and reliable product.
There is no money in selling a product that does not change.
Steve
--
Neural Planner Software Ltd www.NPSL1.com
Neural network applications, help and support.
jmfbahciv
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:47:44 -0000, "invalid"
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> One would think that Microsoft would have been around for long enough
>> now to have evolved a stable and reliable product.
>
> There is no money in selling a product that does not change.
>
/BAH
invalid
news:hha76...@news4.newsguy.com...
Well, of course.
But how long can Microsoft distribute if we all decline to receive?
What do the changing unstable versions of Windows provide that
the stable Linuses do not, given the availability of the Star and Open
Offices?
Patrick Scheible
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:47:44 -0000, "invalid"
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >One would think that Microsoft would have been around for long enough
> >now to have evolved a stable and reliable product.
>
> There is no money in selling a product that does not change.
Yes, but after several generations of the changes being the exchange
of old known bugs with workarounds for new unknown bugs without
workarounds your customers start to get wise.
-- Patrick
Stephen Wolstenholme
wrote:
Have you any examples of such bugs that I can investigate?
Eric Chomko
wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:47:44 -0000, "invalid"
>
> >One would think that Microsoft would have been around for long enough
> >now to have evolved a stable and reliable product.
>
> There is no money in selling a product that does not change.
Yes, and sometimes whether it needs it or not. MS Office comes to
mind.
Charlie Gibbs
(Patrick Scheible) writes:
A few might - but most will say, "Oh, look at the pretty pictures!"
and rush out to buy the new set of bugs. It's been that way ever
since Manhattan was bought for a handful of shiny beads - and
probably long before then.
--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Tim Shoppa
Reminds me of a story about a young, somewhat clueless physics grad
student that I will call Mike, who happened to work near a
superconducting magnet.
One day Mike goes by the magnet carrying a steel toolbox on the way to
his thesis experiment.
The magnet grabs the toolbox, pulls it up well over is head but not
out of reach, and it sticks to the side of the magnet.
Mike calls for help.
We all come running.
We knew full well what was holding the toolbox to the magnet, but we
could not figure out why Mike had not simply let go of the toolbox.
Tim.
Peter Flass
> On 28 Dec 2009 08:26:42 -0800, Patrick Scheible <k...@zipcon.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@tropheus.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:47:44 -0000, "invalid"
>>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> One would think that Microsoft would have been around for long enough
>>>> now to have evolved a stable and reliable product.
>>> There is no money in selling a product that does not change.
>> Yes, but after several generations of the changes being the exchange
>> of old known bugs with workarounds for new unknown bugs without
>> workarounds your customers start to get wise.
>>
>
> Have you any examples of such bugs that I can investigate?
>
Most of Vista?
Peter Flass
Not only that, but few users actually want a "new, improved" "user
experience", I think it's called now. They want the old one with the
rougher edges sanded off and the worst bugs fixed. Switcjing to a new
OS with a new UI is always a problem for most people. You've spent
years getting productive on your current system, and then it changes.
Patrick Scheible
Yes. I have to use MS Office at work. Used to be I only swore at it
about once a day. Now it's every 20 minutes.
-- Patrick
D.J.
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>What do the changing unstable versions of Windows provide that
>the stable Linuses do not, given the availability of the Star and Open
>Offices?
The computers come with Windows and Internet Explorer. You don't have
to teach the government techs how to use something else.
JimP.
--
Brushing aside the thorns so I can see the stars.
http://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ Drive-In movie theaters
http://poetry.drivein-jim.net/ Aug 26, 2009
Stephen Wolstenholme
I went from XP to Windows 7 without stopping at Vista. I have not
noticed any workarounds in 7 for XP bugs.
Stephen Wolstenholme
Office 2007 is much better that earlier versions.
Stephen Wolstenholme
I must have taken about 15 minutes to switch my productive work from
XP to Windows 7.
Chris Burrows
news:hhad8r$854$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> What do the changing unstable versions of Windows provide that
> the stable Linuses do not, given the availability of the Star and Open
> Offices?
>
Which are the stable versions of Linux?
Ubuntu? Debian? Redhat? Fedora? SUSE, openSUSE? Mandriva? Gentoo? Slackware?
Yggdrasil? Knoppix? Devil-Linux? Sidux? Kanotix? UserOS? etc. etc?
Which desktop environment? Gnome? KDE? Something else?
Which supplier?
Which version?
Get my point?
--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
http://www.cfbsoftware.com
Patrick Scheible
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 09:59:53 -0800 (PST), Eric Chomko
> <pne.c...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >On Dec 28, 7:39�am, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@tropheus.demon.co.uk>
> >wrote:
> >> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:47:44 -0000, "invalid"
> >>
> >> <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> >One would think that Microsoft would have been around for long enough
> >> >now to have evolved a stable and reliable product.
> >>
> >> There is no money in selling a product that does not change.
> >
> >Yes, and sometimes whether it needs it or not. MS Office comes to
> >mind.
>
> Office 2007 is much better that earlier versions.
I strongly disagree. The functions that I need are harder to find,
buried in a maze of constantly-shifting menus and modes.
-- Patrick
ArarghMai...@not.at.arargh.com
wrote:
>Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@tropheus.demon.co.uk> writes:
Sounds about right. Ms long ago forgot about KISS.
--
ArarghMail912 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html
To reply by email, remove the extra stuff from the reply address.
Morten Reistad
Yes. It is called diversity. Odd that the tables shall be so turned,
that the coop-version (which Open Source really is) has so many
colours and shades, and the capitalist one comes in one tap only.
For the better half, auto-upgrades really work too. So, you don't
have to reinstall your server. Or your desktop. The new versions
just get there, curtesy of rpm, or yum, or apt.
There are also 23k real applications ready; either pre-loaded
or available at a few mouse clicks.
So, the diversity can be really mind-blowing if Windows is all
you have seen.
-- mrr
des...@verizon.net
> "invalid" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:hhad8r$854$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> What do the changing unstable versions of Windows provide that
>> the stable Linuses do not, given the availability of the Star and Open
>> Offices?
>>
>
> Which are the stable versions of Linux?
>
> Ubuntu? Debian? Redhat? Fedora? SUSE, openSUSE? Mandriva? Gentoo? Slackware?
> Yggdrasil? Knoppix? Devil-Linux? Sidux? Kanotix? UserOS? etc. etc?
I've only used a few of the above, but based on that experience,
the answer is yes, all of the above.
> Which desktop environment? Gnome? KDE? Something else?
Yes again. Whatever you like.
> Which supplier?
Huh?
Do you mean who do you buy support from?
That's up to the corporate types.
They usually insist on support even though they get close to zero
from MS. Anyway, lots of choices.
> Which version?
A current version?
> Get my point?
No, you missed completely.
Chris Burrows
news:l61o07-...@laptop.reistad.name...
>
> So, the diversity can be really mind-blowing if Windows is all
> you have seen.
>
Been there, done that. The diversity of 1980's Unix (AT&T, SCO, Xenix, AIX,
Solaris, Ultrix, HP-UX, BSD etc. etc.) blew my mind a long time ago. Ah! The
good old days ... NOT!
des...@verizon.net
> "Morten Reistad" <fi...@last.name> wrote in message
> news:l61o07-...@laptop.reistad.name...
>>
>> So, the diversity can be really mind-blowing if Windows is all
>> you have seen.
>>
>
> Been there, done that. The diversity of 1980's Unix (AT&T, SCO, Xenix, AIX,
> Solaris, Ultrix, HP-UX, BSD etc. etc.) blew my mind a long time ago. Ah! The
> good old days ... NOT!
Used a lot of the above.
Not what I would call a big problem.
Divesity is something like DOS/VS, z/OS, IBM System 34, and Wang VS.
The UNIXes are a lot more alike than any of the above are similar to
each other, and 3 of them are from the same company.
Chris Burrows
> "Chris Burrows" <cfbso...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>
>> Been there, done that. The diversity of 1980's Unix (AT&T, SCO, Xenix,
>> AIX,
>> Solaris, Ultrix, HP-UX, BSD etc. etc.) blew my mind a long time ago. Ah!
>> The
>> good old days ... NOT!
>
> Used a lot of the above.
>
> Not what I would call a big problem.
>
Well, yes - *using* them was a breeze once you had mastered all the
different shells. However, we were *developing*, *maintaining* and
*supporting* a medium-sized database application for those targets. Just
porting the application to each target took about 2-3 man-months work, and
that was just the start of it ...
The same application with much shared source code ran on MS-DOS, Novell
Netware and VMS. When moving between those and Unix it was reasonable to
expect the unexpected. However, because the Unixes superficially appeared to
be similar, potential customers had difficulty understanding why so much
work was required to get it to run on their Unix. I suspect the same applies
when trying to develop products for the various flavours of Linux.
Morten Reistad
This is still an issue between Linux and the various BSDs, and from
windows version to windows version. But Linux systems run the same
kernel, it is more a question of tracking what libraries in which
versions are available on your particular Linux distro. So it is
a version tracking exercise, not a programming challenge per se.
apt and yum are your friends. Those are update systems to track
dependencies. Once you tag your package correctly it will take care
of installing prerequisites and matching updates. So, the largest
task with a "port" to a different linux distro is writing these
description files.
E.g. the driver interface has some changes in 2.6.24; and there are
very useful instrumentation addons in 2.6.31. None of these are
visible to code in user mode.
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
Chris Burrows <cfbso...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Morten Reistad" <fi...@last.name> wrote in message
>news:l61o07-...@laptop.reistad.name...
>>
>> So, the diversity can be really mind-blowing if Windows is all
>> you have seen.
>>
>
>Been there, done that. The diversity of 1980's Unix (AT&T, SCO, Xenix, AIX,
>Solaris, Ultrix, HP-UX, BSD etc. etc.) blew my mind a long time ago. Ah! The
>good old days ... NOT!
The diversity in the Linux world is somewhat different. This is
a diversity in packaging, design, update systems, installers and
driver setups. The kernel and basic libraries are binary compatible.
With OpenVZ I routinely run both redhat/centos and debian/ubuntu
userlands on the same kernel.
But I won't argue the point. Go ahead with the gaming system.
Using Linux/BSD for production, server and process control system
gives us such a huge commercial advantage we should really promote
Windows for all our competitors.
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
>"Chris Burrows" <cfbso...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> "invalid" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:hhad8r$854$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>> What do the changing unstable versions of Windows provide that
>>> the stable Linuses do not, given the availability of the Star and Open
>>> Offices?
Nitpick: There is only one Linus. He is the enlightened ruler of the
Linux universe.
>> Which are the stable versions of Linux?
>>
>> Ubuntu? Debian? Redhat? Fedora? SUSE, openSUSE? Mandriva? Gentoo? Slackware?
>> Yggdrasil? Knoppix? Devil-Linux? Sidux? Kanotix? UserOS? etc. etc?
>
>I've only used a few of the above, but based on that experience,
>the answer is yes, all of the above.
I'll give a serious answer, but you probably didn't want that.
From personal experience, go for either a debian or ubuntu (ubuntu is
a layer on top of debian, with some extra application support) or a
redhat/centos universe. Debian has a lot wider application support, but
RedHat (and the clone, centos) has totally streamlined patch support.
If you want a Total Solution and have the $$$ for it, go for IBM and
RedHat for your servers. They are unbeatable in high-uptime systems.
HP and centos is a workalike for the rest of us.
>> Which desktop environment? Gnome? KDE? Something else?
>
>Yes again. Whatever you like.
For servers? KDE. Or none. For user systems, whatever looks good.
>> Which supplier?
>
>Huh?
Return question: How much money do you have on the budget. If that
figure is high, and you want a HA solution, give your purse to IBM,
and they will take care of it.
Otherwise, go for HP, or the local acer/asus/taiwan clone maker.
Forget Dell.
Yes, Linux is part of the hardware universe now.
>Do you mean who do you buy support from?
>That's up to the corporate types.
>They usually insist on support even though they get close to zero
>from MS. Anyway, lots of choices.
>
>> Which version?
>
>A current version?
You should unthink the version concept. You should go for a LTS
system, where a version control system let you control versioning
from a sysadmin viewpoint. I can recommend RedHat and Ubuntu as
commercial solutions, and Debian and Centos as community solutions.
Centos is also very easily converted to fully commercial RedHat
systems.
>> Get my point?
>
>No, you missed completely.
Stuff like apt will make people with the right sysadmin genes drool.
-- mrr
invalid
news:00c2c550$0$15574$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
Yes. You are attention-seeking.
jmfbahciv
/BAH
jmfbahciv
web pages.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
Now start on about documentation :-).
/BAH
jmfbahciv
You are the one who is missing the point. If you really want
MS' OS business out of the picture, you had better start
listening to the people who use MS products.
Pay especial attention to comments about suppliers, support
and the meanings of the word when the word "version" is used.
You people are acting like Digital idiots instead of DEC
professionals.
/BAH
Stephen Wolstenholme
Apart from minor changes to my own sites my web page clicking is just
about my lowest priority work. I'm not into web surfing. I use
FeedDemon to get anything that may be of interest to me. My most time
consuming work is using VC++ and Office. They are just the same in
Windows 7 so changing the OS was trivial.
jmfbahciv
do you have any scripts or procedures which you use as sanity checks?
Or is your method a "try it until something doesn't work" method?
/BAH
Stephen Wolstenholme
>If I may be nosy about your work...
>
>do you have any scripts or procedures which you use as sanity checks?
>Or is your method a "try it until something doesn't work" method?
>
>/BAH
Neither of your comments fit my development or management methods
though there is a bit of trial and error involved with the marketing.
Joe Pfeiffer
> invalid wrote:
>>
>> What do the changing unstable versions of Windows provide that
>> the stable Linuses do not, given the availability of the Star and
>> Open Offices?
>>
>>
> Support.
If somebody feels a need to pay for Linux support, they can.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
Morten Reistad
So, indeed, you are all joking.
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
>des...@verizon.net wrote:
>> "Chris Burrows" <cfbso...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Which are the stable versions of Linux?
>>>
>>> Ubuntu? Debian? Redhat? Fedora? SUSE, openSUSE? Mandriva? Gentoo? Slackware?
>>> Yggdrasil? Knoppix? Devil-Linux? Sidux? Kanotix? UserOS? etc. etc?
>>
>> I've only used a few of the above, but based on that experience,
>> the answer is yes, all of the above.
>>
>>> Which desktop environment? Gnome? KDE? Something else?
>>
>> Yes again. Whatever you like.
>>
>>> Which supplier?
>>
>> Huh?
>>
>> Do you mean who do you buy support from?
>> That's up to the corporate types.
>> They usually insist on support even though they get close to zero
>> from MS. Anyway, lots of choices.
>>
>>> Which version?
>>
>> A current version?
>>
>>> Get my point?
>>
>> No, you missed completely.
>>
>
>You are the one who is missing the point. If you really want
>MS' OS business out of the picture, you had better start
>listening to the people who use MS products.
Open Source people have been listening for years, and implementing
what users say they want. Still they stay with Microsoft. So, why
should we bother? There are tons of business waiting in process
control, telecoms, oil, aviation, civil service, banking, construction
and more. If you want a lousy consumer product that falls
apart by itself, so be it.
>Pay especial attention to comments about suppliers, support
>and the meanings of the word when the word "version" is used.
What the systems like yum and apt do is they put the sysadmin
in control of versions, not the vendor. You can control the updates.
You don't have to fork out cash, or reinstall. The versions
arrive incrementally. Apple is almost there. They have the
systems in place; but still make artificial upgrades to have
people fork out cash for upgrades.
>You people are acting like Digital idiots instead of DEC
>professionals.
I just want to me able to buy a pure hardware platform. No
OS, just a supported and documented interface to the bare
iron.
-- mrr
Stan Barr
Unixes these days are very alike from a user perspective, of my two main
machines one runs Ubuntu the other FreeBSD, thay both look and work
the same with a Gnome desktop, and have the same applications installed.
They're just different from Windows :-)
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr plan.b .at. dsl .dot. pipex .dot. com
The future was never like this!
des...@verizon.net
Interesting. I've had very similar experience but I don't feel the same
way.
I've ported a rather large application to many flavors of UNIX, Windows,
z/OS, VMS, Unisys. The application included some database stuff and
was ported to Informix, DB2, Oracle, MySql, and a few other DBs.
Some of the ports were harder than others, but the UNIXes and Linuxes
weren't all that hard. A couple of months might be right for Linux,
but most of the work was coming up with the equivalent of embedded SQL
for MySQL.
Every UNIX we used had KSH so shells were almost a non-issue. (There
are minor differences in each UNIX vendors ksh.)
As far as "various flavors of Linux", I have to disagree. As far as
porting an application, it's a non-issue. Under the hood, they are all
the same.
des...@verizon.net
> In article <icmy12e...@verizon.net>, <des...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>"Chris Burrows" <cfbso...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> "invalid" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:hhad8r$854$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>
>>>> What do the changing unstable versions of Windows provide that
>>>> the stable Linuses do not, given the availability of the Star and Open
>>>> Offices?
>>> Which version?
>>
>>A current version?
>
> You should unthink the version concept. You should go for a LTS
> system, where a version control system let you control versioning
> from a sysadmin viewpoint. I can recommend RedHat and Ubuntu as
> commercial solutions, and Debian and Centos as community solutions.
>
> Centos is also very easily converted to fully commercial RedHat
> systems.
Sounds like you are thinking of corporate installs.
I do that too, we have a few Redhat servers that are pretty easy to
keep going. We've paid Redhat for support but I don't think we use much
of their time. I've never called them myself.
For my personal use I've been using Fedora, partly because we have the
Redhat machines at work. I think "current version" is about to take on
new meaning in the Linux world. My last version change was from FC 10
to FC 11. All I did was download the FC 11 "release" RPM and install
it, then I used yum to update the yum and rpm packages to the FC 11
level, then I updated the rest of the system and rebooted.
Staying current on versions by just applying updates is at the point
where it's pretty much fool proof.
des...@verizon.net
Your comment seems to be addressed to me, but I have never used a DEC
system.
Personally, I could care less what OS other people use.
As far as "support" I have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
Linux support is available and good. (Both the paid for, PHB type
support, and the free "I want to talk to the author" type support.
Joe Pfeiffer
>
> Some of the ports were harder than others, but the UNIXes and Linuxes
> weren't all that hard. A couple of months might be right for Linux,
> but most of the work was coming up with the equivalent of embedded SQL
> for MySQL.
Something I came across recently, and have been using more and more, is
sqlite3. SQL interface to a flat file -- sweet!
Eric Chomko
Wait a minute. I have a choice of an OS where everything goes through
a 'registry' or I can examine and change the configuration using text
files. Hmmm, what does the registry do for me? Its not for me its for
MS.
I noticed your apps are stand alone converters. Fine. Now try and
write something where you need to have it running for a long time
doing transactions or some such and see what the registry does to your
application.
Eric Chomko
> In article <hhctdu82...@news2.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
> >des...@verizon.net wrote:
Generic box, ASUS motherboard and an AMD chip. Has always worked for
me. :)
In fact, I am due for an upgrade soon as I still use AGP instead of
PCIe x16 for my video card.
Eric Chomko
> Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@tropheus.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 09:59:53 -0800 (PST), Eric Chomko
> > <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > >On Dec 28, 7:39 am, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@tropheus.demon.co.uk>
> > >wrote:
> > >> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:47:44 -0000, "invalid"
>
> > >> <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > >> >One would think that Microsoft would have been around for long enough
> > >> >now to have evolved a stable and reliable product.
>
> > >> There is no money in selling a product that does not change.
>
> > >Yes, and sometimes whether it needs it or not. MS Office comes to
> > >mind.
>
>
> I strongly disagree. The functions that I need are harder to find,
> buried in a maze of constantly-shifting menus and modes.
>
Microsoft is notorious for making their OS's match their apps and vice-
versa and not in a good way. :)
Morten Reistad
I caved in and bought the Acer 4810; 8 hour battery life on a decent,
small machine to myself for Christmas. But I haven't seen it much. My
wife took it away as soon as Ubuntu was well installed.
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
>Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> writes:
>
>> In article <icmy12e...@verizon.net>, <des...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>"Chris Burrows" <cfbso...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> "invalid" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>>>> news:hhad8r$854$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>A current version?
>>
>> You should unthink the version concept. You should go for a LTS
>> system, where a version control system let you control versioning
>> from a sysadmin viewpoint. I can recommend RedHat and Ubuntu as
>> commercial solutions, and Debian and Centos as community solutions.
>>
>> Centos is also very easily converted to fully commercial RedHat
>> systems.
>
>Sounds like you are thinking of corporate installs.
Yes, and no. For a mom&dad install, just take Ubuntu and tell them
to click on the update icon when it changes colour; there may be
some important fix from down south.
>I do that too, we have a few Redhat servers that are pretty easy to
>keep going. We've paid Redhat for support but I don't think we use much
>of their time. I've never called them myself.
Actually, Redhat has called me more than I have called them. Around 15
calls total for around 1500 server-years.
>For my personal use I've been using Fedora, partly because we have the
>Redhat machines at work. I think "current version" is about to take on
>new meaning in the Linux world. My last version change was from FC 10
>to FC 11. All I did was download the FC 11 "release" RPM and install
>it, then I used yum to update the yum and rpm packages to the FC 11
>level, then I updated the rest of the system and rebooted.
And Fedora is deliberatly slightly bleeding edge, so RedHat gets to
show/test their latest and greatest. Nothing wrong with that, but I
wouldn't let a non-technical user do that unless it was an explicit
choice.
>Staying current on versions by just applying updates is at the point
>where it's pretty much fool proof.
And Fedora forces updates on you because it is somewhat ahead. For
a non-technical user I would recommend an LTS (Long Time Support) version,
so the automagical update would Just Work for half a decade or so before
you would have to do a small, 15-minute update; like the "release" rpm
you describe above.
Another thing about the un*x world is that I have online copies
of my home directories, somewhat bowlderised from removing corporate
stuff, from two dozen machines dating back to 1988. There is nothing
there that won't run on a modern machine.
But you keep running your gaming consoles. Windows has a splendid
gaming performance.
-- mrr
Chris Burrows
>
> I'll give a serious answer, but you probably didn't want that.
>
It was a rhetorical question but I did appreciate your serious answer, thank
you.
Cheers,
Chris.
jmfbahciv
> jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> writes:
>
>> invalid wrote:
>>> What do the changing unstable versions of Windows provide that
>>> the stable Linuses do not, given the availability of the Star and
>>> Open Offices?
>>>
>>>
>> Support.
>
> If somebody feels a need to pay for Linux support, they can.
but not easily...yet. I simply answered the question.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
which have to made _before_ you can put a Unix system into
production, there is a perception problem. Most small
business people (think startups and mom&pops) get hit with
this confusion, when all they want is a spread sheet, email,
and a web page, the decision of which system to buy off the
shelf is a no-brainer.
/BAH
Joe Pfeiffer
https://www.redhat.com/wapps/store/catalog.html
How easy do you want?
des...@verizon.net
You don't seem to ever admit when you're wrong.
"Not easily"? What is that supposed to mean?
I know first hand it's easy.
Morten Reistad
This is a question of "be careful what you wish for". IBM will
gladly sell you both service guarantees and 24/7/365 support
for Linux, on their hardware. IBM quality, for IBM prices. If
this is what you want, you will get it. I have even subcontracted
for IBM for a very small bit of this, so I can attest that it is
very real.
According to the farewell interview with Gerstner they had a
gross intake on Linux services and support (not so easily
separeted in IBM's business model) of between 6 and 7 billion
USD, with profits in excess of $1B. (IBM will always try to
sell you a service, not hardware. They are pretty successful
in this).
Analysts estimate they have added another 40% growth to this, without
depressing profits much.
This means they are around the $10B mark in Linux support&services
alone.
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
I thought America was about personal choice?
If your personal choice would rather exclude Microsoft there
is a very easy alternative in Ubuntu Linux. Insert CD in machine,
and answer six questions; about the language, dialect, timezone,
network connection and keyboard/mouse layout you want.
You can boot & run without installing; or you can do an install.
It takes a similar 5-6 questions.
This is actually fewer than what the initial Microsoft install
present you with. The licensing alone takes 5 questions and about
four minutes of your time, key entry excluded.
Ubuntu install took 20 minutes on the acer I bought for
Christmas. Including the copy. I run a dual boot, and getting the keys
and install stuff for windows right actually took longer. If I want to
include drivers, ubuntu took another half hour; I needed linux drivers
for the separate webcam and HP scanner/copier/fax/printer. That took
all of 15 minutes to find, download and install.
Getting the drivers right on windows took around three times longer.
I even had to do an install of my external, _microsoft made_ mouse.
So there is another line in the "the best rapper is white, the best
golfer is black, the toughest sailor is a girl, the swiss keep winning
the america's cup, and the red army won the world championship in
cheerleading."
And now the best OS comes from Africa.
-- mrr
Eugene Miya
invalid <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>The dinosaurs of the world of computing, believing that they have
>a stranglehold on us, usually go the way of the Dodo.
I would not compare a basic software firm next to 2 hardware firms.
It might work if Intel was thrown into the mix as WINTEL.
>How long before the computists of the world will no longer pay out
>their shekels to Microsoft in order to buy something that they already
>have had for years? (ie, No "3dB" (worthwhile) improvement in moving from
>Windows WFWG, W95, W98, ME, XP, Vista and now W7)
>
>Linux does not go through a major redesign at each iteration, so what is
>it with Microsoft that they must release a whole new raft of bugs each time
>that they release yet another version of Windows?
>
>One would think that Microsoft would have been around for long enough
>now to have evolved a stable and reliable product.
IBM once thought that. Ask Fred Brooks about OS/360 and OS/Z.
> Have Microsoft got any clue whatsoever about software engineering?
Do you have any clue about software engineering?
Have you ever visited Redmond, Mountain View, BARC, or the overseas MS labs?
You know where Rashid came from before MS? That doesn't mean that Rick
is big on software engineering much less most of the other people who
work in MS Research (MSR). I walked past BARC last evening by a floor
(the one above the movie theater).
MS has the usual mix of computer arrogance, business economies, etc.
I was in Redmond in July. The Ballmer MS is a different place than the
Gates MS.
This doesn't mean that it's going to go away (or not). MS is very conscious
about IBM dinosaurs. It isn't going away in any time horizon that
I see, not by choice. It is still stuck on featuritis.
--
Looking for an H-912 (container).
Eric Chomko
> In article <109f85a2-d091-4521-8e49-462702184...@j4g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
> Eric Chomko <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >On Dec 29, 10:10 am, Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> wrote:
> >> In article <hhctdu82...@news2.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
> >> >des...@verizon.net wrote:
> >> I just want to me able to buy a pure hardware platform. No
> >> OS, just a supported and documented interface to the bare
> >> iron.
>
> >> -- mrr
>
> >Generic box, ASUS motherboard and an AMD chip. Has always worked for
> >me. :)
> >In fact, I am due for an upgrade soon as I still use AGP instead of
> >PCIe x16 for my video card.
>
> I caved in and bought the Acer 4810; 8 hour battery life on a decent,
> small machine to myself for Christmas. But I haven't seen it much. My
> wife took it away as soon as Ubuntu was well installed.
>
> -- mrr
Yep, bought a Toshiba this past fall mostly for my wife as she kept
bitching about the desktop PC
being slow, too hard to use, etc. Wireless laptop and was done with it!
Chris Burrows
news:b7191b20-6a3f-45d8...@21g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> Wait a minute. I have a choice of an OS where everything goes through
> a 'registry' or I can examine and change the configuration using text
> files. Hmmm, what does the registry do for me? Its not for me its for
> MS.
> I noticed your apps are stand alone converters. Fine. Now try and
> write something where you need to have it running for a long time
> doing transactions or some such and see what the registry does to your
> application.
Sorry - you've completely lost me there. We completely rewrote the DOS /
Unix / VMS database app that I was referring to earlier, in Delphi for
Windows in the mid 90's targeting both local and client / server databases.
Plenty of database-related issues but don't recall any registry-related
problems.
--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
http://www.cfbsoftware.com
jmfbahciv
> jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> writes:
>
>> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>> jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> writes:
>>>
>>>> invalid wrote:
>>>>> What do the changing unstable versions of Windows provide that
>>>>> the stable Linuses do not, given the availability of the Star and
>>>>> Open Offices?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Support.
>>> If somebody feels a need to pay for Linux support, they can.
>> but not easily...yet. I simply answered the question.
>
> https://www.redhat.com/wapps/store/catalog.html
>
> How easy do you want?
A blurb on the box is a requirement. Not everybody has the ear
of auld farts. ;-)
/BAH
jmfbahciv
Sigh! I am putting myself in the place of anybody who might
want to start a business. It still is not straight-forward
for anybody to buy a Unix system and be able to use it
within a week (and I'm overestimating this ramp-up time)
without having to hire an expert who doesn't exist in
most areas.
>
> I know first hand it's easy.
I know, first hand, that it is not easy.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> In article <hhfmh...@news3.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>> jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> writes:
>>>
>>>> invalid wrote:
>>>>> What do the changing unstable versions of Windows provide that
>>>>> the stable Linuses do not, given the availability of the Star and
>>>>> Open Offices?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Support.
>>> If somebody feels a need to pay for Linux support, they can.
>> but not easily...yet. I simply answered the question.
>
> This is a question of "be careful what you wish for". IBM will
> gladly sell you both service guarantees and 24/7/365 support
> for Linux, on their hardware. IBM quality, for IBM prices. If
> this is what you want, you will get it. I have even subcontracted
> for IBM for a very small bit of this, so I can attest that it is
> very real.
And somebody like my mother would have never heard of it.
If you're not plugged into the IT nor the computer biz,
none of this helpfulness gets to your ears.
>
> According to the farewell interview with Gerstner they had a
> gross intake on Linux services and support (not so easily
> separeted in IBM's business model) of between 6 and 7 billion
> USD, with profits in excess of $1B. (IBM will always try to
> sell you a service, not hardware. They are pretty successful
> in this).
>
> Analysts estimate they have added another 40% growth to this, without
> depressing profits much.
>
> This means they are around the $10B mark in Linux support&services
> alone.
Somebody has to point the dirty masses to this kind of service
or be available to tell them about the one magic incantation
which will get them started.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> In article <hhfml...@news3.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>> Morten Reistad wrote:
>>> In article <hhcsu...@news2.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>>>> invalid wrote:
>>>>> "jmfbahciv" <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote in message
>>>>> news:hha76...@news4.newsguy.com...
>>>>>> invalid wrote:
>>>> Support.
>>> So, indeed, you are all joking.
>>>
>> Perception is important. When there are thousands of decisions
>> which have to made _before_ you can put a Unix system into
>> production, there is a perception problem. Most small
>> business people (think startups and mom&pops) get hit with
>> this confusion, when all they want is a spread sheet, email,
>> and a web page, the decision of which system to buy off the
>> shelf is a no-brainer.
>
> I thought America was about personal choice?
That doesn't exist yet w.r.t. personal computer systems...yet.
>
> If your personal choice would rather exclude Microsoft there
> is a very easy alternative in Ubuntu Linux. Insert CD in machine,
> and answer six questions; about the language, dialect, timezone,
> network connection and keyboard/mouse layout you want.
and how is e.g., my mother supposed to learn about this? She
hasn't even gone through the doors of a computer brick&mortar
store.
>
> You can boot & run without installing; or you can do an install.
> It takes a similar 5-6 questions.
>
> This is actually fewer than what the initial Microsoft install
> present you with. The licensing alone takes 5 questions and about
> four minutes of your time, key entry excluded.
I am not disputing the technical details. I am talking about
how this "easiness" becomes common knowledge.
>
> Ubuntu install took 20 minutes on the acer I bought for
> Christmas. Including the copy. I run a dual boot, and getting the keys
> and install stuff for windows right actually took longer. If I want to
> include drivers, ubuntu took another half hour; I needed linux drivers
> for the separate webcam and HP scanner/copier/fax/printer. That took
> all of 15 minutes to find, download and install.
>
> Getting the drivers right on windows took around three times longer.
> I even had to do an install of my external, _microsoft made_ mouse.
>
> So there is another line in the "the best rapper is white, the best
> golfer is black, the toughest sailor is a girl, the swiss keep winning
> the america's cup, and the red army won the world championship in
> cheerleading."
>
> And now the best OS comes from Africa.
People are still, generally, timid when it comes to computer systems.
I've seen people ask for help and be told to install a new OS. This
recommendation is an immediate turnoff. If they knew enough
about installing from the bare iron up, they would not have asked
for help.
/BAH
Peter Grange
>> If your personal choice would rather exclude Microsoft there
>> is a very easy alternative in Ubuntu Linux. Insert CD in machine,
>> and answer six questions; about the language, dialect, timezone,
>> network connection and keyboard/mouse layout you want.
>
>and how is e.g., my mother supposed to learn about this? She
>hasn't even gone through the doors of a computer brick&mortar
>store.
>
Someone starts something like the UK's University of the Third Age?
(http://www.u3a.org.uk). I lead our local Computing Group and was
teaching computer basics to a lady of over 80 recently.
A tad off topic for the thread, but there's a serious point here. The
benefits of computer and internet use to the elderly and infirm are
huge, from using skype or similar to talk to and see the great
grandchildren in Australia to ordering the groceries on line.
jmfbahciv
> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 08:46:01 -0500, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>
>
>>> If your personal choice would rather exclude Microsoft there
>>> is a very easy alternative in Ubuntu Linux. Insert CD in machine,
>>> and answer six questions; about the language, dialect, timezone,
>>> network connection and keyboard/mouse layout you want.
>> and how is e.g., my mother supposed to learn about this? She
>> hasn't even gone through the doors of a computer brick&mortar
>> store.
>>
> Someone starts something like the UK's University of the Third Age?
> (http://www.u3a.org.uk). I lead our local Computing Group and was
> teaching computer basics to a lady of over 80 recently.
Good. All the classes in this area are MS-based software.
>
> A tad off topic for the thread, but there's a serious point here. The
> benefits of computer and internet use to the elderly and infirm are
> huge, from using skype or similar to talk to and see the great
> grandchildren in Australia to ordering the groceries on line.
Mom hasn't bought anything on-line yet. I've been discouraging her
becuase of the our piss-poor banking system.
/BAH
Peter Grange
>Peter Grange wrote:
>> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 08:46:01 -0500, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> If your personal choice would rather exclude Microsoft there
>>>> is a very easy alternative in Ubuntu Linux. Insert CD in machine,
>>>> and answer six questions; about the language, dialect, timezone,
>>>> network connection and keyboard/mouse layout you want.
>>> and how is e.g., my mother supposed to learn about this? She
>>> hasn't even gone through the doors of a computer brick&mortar
>>> store.
>>>
>> Someone starts something like the UK's University of the Third Age?
>> (http://www.u3a.org.uk). I lead our local Computing Group and was
>> teaching computer basics to a lady of over 80 recently.
>
>Good. All the classes in this area are MS-based software.
Yes. There are people in our group who run Linux, but they are at the
adventurous end of the spectrum (and tend to be at the younger end of
the spectrum too bearing in mind we're all retired) and very much in
the minority. I tell people abut Linux because it's free and does what
the average elderly person needs to do, but whenever one of these
people goes into PC World to buy a laptop they come out with something
running Windows. I don't have a real problem with that, it'll do what
they need perfectly adequately too. There's also the "run something
your grandchildren can help you with" consideration.
>
>>
>> A tad off topic for the thread, but there's a serious point here. The
>> benefits of computer and internet use to the elderly and infirm are
>> huge, from using skype or similar to talk to and see the great
>> grandchildren in Australia to ordering the groceries on line.
>
>Mom hasn't bought anything on-line yet. I've been discouraging her
>becuase of the our piss-poor banking system.
That's a good point. A tactic used over here is to get a separate
credit card with a low credit limit for use on the internet, to
minimise your exposure in the event some retailer site gets hacked and
all the card details stolen.
>
>/BAH
Charlie Gibbs
writes:
> Morten Reistad wrote:
>
>> If your personal choice would rather exclude Microsoft there
>> is a very easy alternative in Ubuntu Linux. Insert CD in machine,
>> and answer six questions; about the language, dialect, timezone,
>> network connection and keyboard/mouse layout you want.
>
> and how is e.g., my mother supposed to learn about this? She
> hasn't even gone through the doors of a computer brick&mortar
> store.
Installing Windows isn't any easier than installing Linux - in fact,
I've found that it's often harder. So most people rely on the OS
being pre-installed. Whether that OS is Windows or Linux doesn't
matter if it comes up properly and the needed apps are there.
--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
"Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> In article <hhi96...@news5.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv@aol (jmfbahciv)
> writes:
>
> > Morten Reistad wrote:
> >
> >> If your personal choice would rather exclude Microsoft there
> >> is a very easy alternative in Ubuntu Linux. Insert CD in machine,
> >> and answer six questions; about the language, dialect, timezone,
> >> network connection and keyboard/mouse layout you want.
> >
> > and how is e.g., my mother supposed to learn about this? She
> > hasn't even gone through the doors of a computer brick&mortar
> > store.
>
> Installing Windows isn't any easier than installing Linux - in fact,
> I've found that it's often harder. So most people rely on the OS
Yep it is indeed usually harder.
> being pre-installed. Whether that OS is Windows or Linux doesn't
> matter if it comes up properly and the needed apps are there.
Walk into any shop selling computers - nearly all of them come with
Windows pre-installed, a few can be found with some flavour of Linux. To
get a computer without and OS installed you pretty much have to buy
components and assemble them yourself.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
des...@verizon.net
Well, my group at work is not running a whole business on Linux,
it's just one of our development platforms. But we have a RH license
and we acquired it with little fuss.
Morten Reistad
>Morten Reistad wrote:
>> In article <hhfmh...@news3.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>>> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>>> jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> writes:
>>
>> This is a question of "be careful what you wish for". IBM will
>> gladly sell you both service guarantees and 24/7/365 support
>> for Linux, on their hardware. IBM quality, for IBM prices. If
>> this is what you want, you will get it. I have even subcontracted
>> for IBM for a very small bit of this, so I can attest that it is
>> very real.
>
>And somebody like my mother would have never heard of it.
>If you're not plugged into the IT nor the computer biz,
>none of this helpfulness gets to your ears.
IBM support is not for mom&pop outfits. It is set at a level
of quality and price that is way beyond what such an outfit
can afford.
You can also get consumer grade service. But you will have to
go to a third party to get such service, regardless of whether
it is microsoft or any other system.
>> According to the farewell interview with Gerstner they had a
>> gross intake on Linux services and support (not so easily
>> separeted in IBM's business model) of between 6 and 7 billion
>> USD, with profits in excess of $1B. (IBM will always try to
>> sell you a service, not hardware. They are pretty successful
>> in this).
>>
>> Analysts estimate they have added another 40% growth to this, without
>> depressing profits much.
>>
>> This means they are around the $10B mark in Linux support&services
>> alone.
>
>Somebody has to point the dirty masses to this kind of service
>or be available to tell them about the one magic incantation
>which will get them started.
Why? What incentive is there to do so?
We are not excacly keeping this a secret. If the great unwashed
masses want to follow, they must put their money where their mouth
is.
The biggest hurdle today is that Microsoft systems are so tuned to
gaming performance, and all the private systems sold have lots
of games on them. Every available indicator points to MS pushing
games as the selling point. All the computer shop monkeys are in
on this. playing games all the time, and constantly selling on these
points.
And as gaming consoles the Microsoft systems do shine.
So, the great unwashed masses use gaming and entertainment value
as the core points to buy their systems, not what they SAY they
do; which is office and application use.
So they get gaming consoles. No surprise.
-- mrr
jmfbahciv
> In article <hhi96...@news5.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv@aol (jmfbahciv)
> writes:
>
>> Morten Reistad wrote:
>>
>>> If your personal choice would rather exclude Microsoft there
>>> is a very easy alternative in Ubuntu Linux. Insert CD in machine,
>>> and answer six questions; about the language, dialect, timezone,
>>> network connection and keyboard/mouse layout you want.
>> and how is e.g., my mother supposed to learn about this? She
>> hasn't even gone through the doors of a computer brick&mortar
>> store.
>
> Installing Windows isn't any easier than installing Linux - in fact,
> I've found that it's often harder. So most people rely on the OS
> being pre-installed. Whether that OS is Windows or Linux doesn't
> matter if it comes up properly and the needed apps are there.
>
hardware is MS. Telling people who don't know, and don't want
to know, anything about how computers work, to install Linux
is not the way to get them to run it.
/BAH
Bill Pechter
> In article <hhi96...@news5.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv@aol (jmfbahciv)
> writes:
>
>> Morten Reistad wrote:
>>
>>> If your personal choice would rather exclude Microsoft there
>>> is a very easy alternative in Ubuntu Linux. Insert CD in machine,
>>> and answer six questions; about the language, dialect, timezone,
>>> network connection and keyboard/mouse layout you want.
>>
>> and how is e.g., my mother supposed to learn about this? She
>> hasn't even gone through the doors of a computer brick&mortar
>> store.
>
> Installing Windows isn't any easier than installing Linux - in fact,
> I've found that it's often harder. So most people rely on the OS
> being pre-installed. Whether that OS is Windows or Linux doesn't
> matter if it comes up properly and the needed apps are there.
>
Hell, I've got a problem driving me nuts on the netbook.
Need to fix a problem with the bootblock and mbr and want to fix
a problematic Ubuntu system... Two days of strugling with the
preloaded "repair" distribution offers me the options of wiping the box
and starting over or nothing.
OK -- pull out a WinXP install disk. Get to recovery console to fixboot and
fixmbr.
XP bluescreens... Disk too old for HW. Build SATA floppy for disk drivers.
Still 0x7b bluescreen.
Try an end run with System Recovery CD's bootmanager.
Damn... Now everything boots and runs.
Why couldn't the vendor supply a slipstreamed XP with drivers...
Microsoft kept XP available only with restrictive installers for these
netbooks at low cost so the OS could only be "reinstalled" not repaired.
Bill
--
"When I think back on all the crap I learned in Vax school
It's a wonder I fixed anything at all." (to the tune of Kodachrome)
pechter-at-ureach.com
Bill Pechter
> In article <hhi8q...@news5.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>>Morten Reistad wrote:
>>> In article <hhfmh...@news3.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>>>> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>>>> jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> writes:
>>>
>>> This is a question of "be careful what you wish for". IBM will
>>> gladly sell you both service guarantees and 24/7/365 support
>>> for Linux, on their hardware. IBM quality, for IBM prices. If
>>> this is what you want, you will get it. I have even subcontracted
>>> for IBM for a very small bit of this, so I can attest that it is
>>> very real.
>>
>
> of quality and price that is way beyond what such an outfit
> can afford.
Price yes. The quality of support on their Hardware and Software
is well below what it used to be.
I've seen their Lotus Notes service. The only platform it seemed
to work well on is Windows...
I'm comparing their Xserver product line against the Unix
workstations and servers I used to deal with in the 90's and
DECservice back in the Vax days...
Over 20 years service has become a commodity to be priced
as a vendor cash cow.
Phone banks are outsourced. I had a DELL tech once
tell me the Windows XP needed to be installed on
a laptop because the CD Drive wouldn't read disks.
The drive was swapped to two more laptops with no
change in symptom and their cd drives worked
in the problem box.
No hardware for you. Sounds like Seinfeld's Soup
Nazi.
Finally got to a senior tech in Alabama who laughed
and shipped out a drive overnight.
IBM is better than Dell -- but not by much.
Their Lotus support on Notes server on RedHat pretty
much is useless.
All is just parts changing now.
>
> You can also get consumer grade service. But you will have to
> go to a third party to get such service, regardless of whether
> it is microsoft or any other system.
>
Microsoft's service is ok once you get to the guy with the
clue. It can take more time than you want.
Expect to escalate almost every ticket these days.
You get what you pay for.
>
>>> According to the farewell interview with Gerstner they had a
>>> gross intake on Linux services and support (not so easily
>>> separeted in IBM's business model) of between 6 and 7 billion
>>> USD, with profits in excess of $1B. (IBM will always try to
>>> sell you a service, not hardware. They are pretty successful
>>> in this).
Yup. Worked for 'em. Bring in the heavy techies. Sell 'em
on what you could do. Bring in the green kids after the
sale and move the techies to the next customer in line.
Tell 'em you can do more with less due to your process
and experience. Front load the contract up front so
that the contract is expensive to cancel early.
Soon (a couple of years) it'll be too difficult to break
away. Seen this at Lucent. Leased PC's at 3k and
1000+/year support. (Dual boot costs double).
Servers could be 10* the price. (This was in Y2k when
pc price was dropping and the performance was doubling
as they went from PII to PIII and pushed up the clocks.)
Wonder why all the depts were trying to hide desktops
as "lab equipment."
I put in referb Compaqs at $1000/desktop purchase price.
> -- mrr
The problem is that the hardware's gotten too cheap and
the software's too expensive and complex.
Reload and fix it 12 hrs... or buy a new preloaded
box that's twice as fast and start clean (which you
have to anyway for a couple of hundred more.)
Keeping data on external eSATA makes the later easy
in many cases. NAS and SAN do the same for
server data.
We're just keeping boxes until the warranty runs out
and then... bye-bye.
We're consolidating on virtual machines also removes driver
and OS dependancy issues going forward.
We've got one last old Linux/Apache/Front Page box that
we've virtualized. You can't get the freaking
software to reload it if you wanted to.
It's kind of like leasing in a way.
Imagine swapping out a car when the oil needs changing
and the gas tank's empty for the same price as dealer
service...
The good hardware runs a long time. I've got my house
filled with old DELL servers now used as desktops.
Reliable Intel motherboards and good SCSI and
SATA disks. All seven years + and still running.
Hardware's good.
The software upkeep is the killer.
Linux is better (Ubuntu/CentOS are my favorite choices)
but they require a knowledgable person when something
goes wrong.
I thought wubi (Ubuntu on NT/2000/XP partition with
a container file on ntfs was an answer until it
bit the dust on this netbook when a new kernel
update left nothing but the grub> prompt working.
I could recover but how many mom and pops.
Sometimes, I wonder if the timeshare/Compuserve/Cloud/
information utility idea with smart graphic terminals
and secure data storage (encrypted) as a service
makes sense.
With an external USB thumb drive for a local copy of the
bank acct, of course.
Bill
greymaus
> On 2009-12-31, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <hhi96...@news5.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv@aol (jmfbahciv)
>> writes:
>>
>>
>
> Hell, I've got a problem driving me nuts on the netbook.
>
> Need to fix a problem with the bootblock and mbr and want to fix
> a problematic Ubuntu system... Two days of strugling with the
> preloaded "repair" distribution offers me the options of wiping the box
> and starting over or nothing.
Most Linii have a copy of the _previous_ bootblock in /boot, been a while since
I needed to use it.. Google.
Most recent systems (M$) i have seen have a partition with recovery
stuff on it. FDISK.
(Last system I tried installing linux on had problems like you
describe, may be a 7 feature)
>
> OK -- pull out a WinXP install disk. Get to recovery console to fixboot and
> fixmbr.
>
> XP bluescreens... Disk too old for HW. Build SATA floppy for disk drivers.
> Still 0x7b bluescreen.
>
> Try an end run with System Recovery CD's bootmanager.
> Damn... Now everything boots and runs.
>
> Why couldn't the vendor supply a slipstreamed XP with drivers...
> Microsoft kept XP available only with restrictive installers for these
> netbooks at low cost so the OS could only be "reinstalled" not repaired.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
--
greymaus
.
.
...
Tim Shoppa
> You know where Rashid came from before MS?
It's a rare occasion for anyone to hear me say this about a Microsoft
Suit, but I have a lot of respect for Rashid, certainly inspired by
what he did before Microsoft, but (I have a hard time saying this) for
what he's done while at Microsoft too. He not only "gets it" when it
comes to computing, he actually innovated lots of "it".
Tim.
Charles Richmond
Did Rashid replace that little leprechaun Nathan Myhrvold???
--
+----------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond |
| |
| plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com |
+----------------------------------------+
Bill Pechter
> On 2010-01-01, Bill Pechter <pec...@tucker.pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:
>> On 2009-12-31, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> In article <hhi96...@news5.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv@aol (jmfbahciv)
>>> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Hell, I've got a problem driving me nuts on the netbook.
>>
>> Need to fix a problem with the bootblock and mbr and want to fix
>> a problematic Ubuntu system... Two days of strugling with the
>> preloaded "repair" distribution offers me the options of wiping the box
>> and starting over or nothing.
>
> Most Linii have a copy of the _previous_ bootblock in /boot, been a while since
> I needed to use it.. Google.
Unfortunately... went through a bunch of kernel upgrades and grub-updates before trying to boot
MS-Windows...
> Most recent systems (M$) i have seen have a partition with recovery
> stuff on it. FDISK.
At least I found a third party boot mgr that works with all the OS's.
>
> (Last system I tried installing linux on had problems like you
> describe, may be a 7 feature)
Could be something new on this final XP release (SP3)
Grub identifies the "Recovery partition type as diag type 12 yet labels it as vista...
>
>>
>> OK -- pull out a WinXP install disk. Get to recovery console to fixboot and
>> fixmbr.
>>
>> XP bluescreens... Disk too old for HW. Build SATA floppy for disk drivers.
>> Still 0x7b bluescreen.
>>
>> Try an end run with System Recovery CD's bootmanager.
>> Damn... Now everything boots and runs.
>>
>> Why couldn't the vendor supply a slipstreamed XP with drivers...
>> Microsoft kept XP available only with restrictive installers for these
>> netbooks at low cost so the OS could only be "reinstalled" not repaired.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>
>
bill
Eric Chomko
wrote:
> "Eric Chomko" <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote in message
Tell that to my system this morning! Run Windows long enough with
enough files/directories open over time and it will crash. Tell me is
there some sort of dynamic storage allocation for files in Windows.
IOW, if you access files and folders do you add file access info to a
stack or a heap? I get memory crashes regularly with a C, D and H
drive running XP.
Eugene Miya
Tim Shoppa <sho...@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
Funny you should think of Rick as a "suit."
Rick's another DARPA funded PI. I think he lucked out when Steve Jobs
decided that NeXT would use Mach. Our problem with Mach was the heavy
reliance on 32-bit. This resulted in Rick's DARPA Program Manager
coming up us to convince us to get Cray Research to adopt Mach as their
next OS. My manager (Barton, most recently left RSA) told the DARPA
Program Manager to go tell Cray yourself. And of course now Mach is
Apple OS X.
Rick is clearly smart; he just has his biases. Watch for the ones in
China and India where the next great app might come and stay (in those
cultures).
Eugene Miya
Charles Richmond <fri...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>Tim Shoppa wrote:
>> On Dec 30 2009, 2:15 pm, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:
>>> You know where Rashid came from before MS?
>>
>> It's a rare occasion for anyone to hear me say this about a Microsoft
>> Suit, but I have a lot of respect for Rashid, certainly inspired by
>> what he did before Microsoft, but (I have a hard time saying this) for
>> what he's done while at Microsoft too. He not only "gets it" when it
>> comes to computing, he actually innovated lots of "it".
>>
>
>Did Rashid replace that little leprechaun Nathan Myhrvold???
I think Nathan was a side branch off the MS org chart.
I don't recall the development and evolution of MS Research, but I don't
recall Nathan (who came to buy an old Cray 1 for his living room from
Tony Cole) being over the Bay Area Research Center (Gray and Bell).
Nathan is off like Gates solving world problems at his think tank.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> > Microsoft's primary business is distribution, not OS development. If
> > you change your assumptions to reflect this fact, then everything
> > they do w.r.t. what they ship makes sense.
Bingo!
> But how long can Microsoft distribute if we all decline to receive?
People have been asking that question for the last 25 years. In the
computer world, 25 years is an eternity. Anyway, despite all the
griping and "I hate MS" clubs, the company is still there, still doing
quite well.
So, the answer to your question is that others do not see MS as you
do.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Not only that, but few users actually want a "new, improved" "user
> experience", I think it's called now. They want the old one with the
> rougher edges sanded off and the worst bugs fixed. Switcjing to a new
> OS with a new UI is always a problem for most people. You've spent
> years getting productive on your current system, and then it changes.
Instead of comparing notes with the people who don't like MS, I would
suggest asking the massive number people who _have_ chosen to buy its
products why they have done so.
I have heard ad nauseum that Lotus was better than Excel and
WordPerfect was better than Word. Yet Lotus and WordPerfect were
replaced by MS products. Again, you can't speculate, but need to
actually ask people who made the purchase choice.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> >You are the one who is missing the point. If you really want
> >MS' OS business out of the picture, you had better start
> >listening to the people who use MS products.
>
> Open Source people have been listening for years, and implementing
> what users say they want. Still they stay with Microsoft. So, why
> should we bother? There are tons of business waiting in process
> control, telecoms, oil, aviation, civil service, banking, construction
> and more. If you want a lousy consumer product that falls
> apart by itself, so be it.
Perhaps those products, in actual service, do _not_ "fall apart" by
themselves.
Perhaps Open Source people haven't been listening as well as they
claim to.
Don't forget that MS sells application products like its OfficeSuite
as well as operating systems. (I don't know what product line is most
popular or profitable for them).
The marketplace is funny and fickle and there are no guarantees. At
one time a chain of restaurants known as Howard Johnson's owned the
roadside food service market. Today they're all but forgotten--what
happened to them?
At one time when IBM said Jump! everyone else asked "how high?". But
that's no longer true.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> So, the great unwashed masses use gaming and entertainment value
> as the core points to buy their systems, not what they SAY they
> do; which is office and application use.
This should be no surprise. The amount of computing processing power
a household needs could be easily done on a 386, maybe even a 286. A
menu system could substitute for the C:\> and be easy to use (lots of
them were developed).
Games, on the other hand, eat up a lot more CPU cycles than balancing
a checkbook with 25 outstanding checks or a 1040 tax return.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Tell that to my system this morning! Run Windows long enough with
> enough files/directories open over time and it will crash. Tell me is
> there some sort of dynamic storage allocation for files in Windows.
> IOW, if you access files and folders do you add file access info to a
> stack or a heap? I get memory crashes regularly with a C, D and H
> drive running XP.
I don't understand. If you prefer Unix/Linux so much better, why are
you still using Windows, and not Linux?
Patrick Scheible
> On Dec 28 2009, 2:59=A0pm, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Not only that, but few users actually want a "new, improved" "user
> > experience", I think it's called now. =A0They want the old one with the
> > rougher edges sanded off and the worst bugs fixed. =A0Switcjing to a new
> > OS with a new UI is always a problem for most people. =A0You've spent
> > years getting productive on your current system, and then it changes.
>
> Instead of comparing notes with the people who don't like MS, I would
> suggest asking the massive number people who _have_ chosen to buy its
> products why they have done so.
>
> I have heard ad nauseum that Lotus was better than Excel and
> WordPerfect was better than Word. Yet Lotus and WordPerfect were
> replaced by MS products. Again, you can't speculate, but need to
> actually ask people who made the purchase choice.
In workplaces, often the person who makes the purchase choice is not
the person who uses the software. And once users have learned to
tolerate Microsoft at work, they figure it's easier to use the same
thing at home. And besides, while you can get other OSs preinstalled,
the path of least resistance is to buy a computer with Windows
installed.
-- Patrick
Morten Reistad
<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>On Dec 29 2009, 10:10�am, Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> wrote:
>> >You are the one who is missing the point. �If you really want
>> >MS' OS business out of the picture, you had better start
>> >listening to the people who use MS products.
>>
>> Open Source people have been listening for years, and implementing
>> what users say they want. Still they stay with Microsoft. So, why
>> should we bother? There are tons of business waiting in process
>> control, telecoms, oil, aviation, civil service, banking, construction
>> and more. If you want a lousy consumer product that falls
>> apart by itself, so be it.
>
>Perhaps those products, in actual service, do _not_ "fall apart" by
>themselves.
For all installations I have seen, bar some _very_ tight W2K ones,
windows is on a decay path all by itself. But then, so are most
appliances. If the windows system just gets enough milage before it
gets unusable, it is accepted.
>Perhaps Open Source people haven't been listening as well as they
>claim to.
We have here a case where what the (potential) customer is saying
(s)he wants and what (s)he lets influence the buying process are two
quite different things. This sometimes happens; like the market for
prepaid mobile telephony. (Market analysts said this would be a contender
for max 5% of the market, based on extensive customer interviews. When
available in the marketplace itrapidly went to ~40% market share.)
Open Source designers have made a very good implementation of a desktop
that interoperates as well with Microsoft Office as the various Office
versions do with each other. That was the rallying cry from 10 years
back. But that is not what drives windows installations.
Lots of spurious, small programs, and games, games, games is what
drives the windows sales. Just look at what mr Gates worked on for
nearly a decade before he left MS operations. Being a gaming console
is a very important driver for windows. And to their credit, they
make a very good gaming console.
>
>Don't forget that MS sells application products like its OfficeSuite
>as well as operating systems. (I don't know what product line is most
>popular or profitable for them).
Office generates a lot more profit, but the base revenue comes from
Windows pre-installed systems.
>The marketplace is funny and fickle and there are no guarantees. At
>one time a chain of restaurants known as Howard Johnson's owned the
>roadside food service market. Today they're all but forgotten--what
>happened to them?
They forgot to compete with themselves.
>At one time when IBM said Jump! everyone else asked "how high?". But
>that's no longer true.
At least IBM let loose a little internal competition. That is why
they still exist.
-- mrr
jmfbahciv
MS is middle-aged. think about that.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> On Jan 1, 7:15 am, Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> wrote:
>
>> So, the great unwashed masses use gaming and entertainment value
>> as the core points to buy their systems, not what they SAY they
>> do; which is office and application use.
>
> This should be no surprise. The amount of computing processing power
> a household needs could be easily done on a 386, maybe even a 286.
No. The downloading of gigabytes requires support from somewhere
[emoticon handwaves at the world] out there which can handle
lots of data and comm. That is not going to happen with a 286.
> A
> menu system could substitute for the C:\> and be easy to use (lots of
> them were developed).
>
> Games, on the other hand, eat up a lot more CPU cycles than balancing
> a checkbook with 25 outstanding checks or a 1040 tax return.
But games didn't have to add in decimal.
/BAH
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
>In workplaces, often the person who makes the purchase choice is not
> the person who uses the software.
While true, the corporate purchasers are normally greatly influenced
by the actual corporate users. If price is a consideration, then I
would think Linux would be a huge hit being free; and other
application products chosen since they're cheaper.
Has anyone actually _asked_ _multiple_ corporate purchasers why
they chose MS system and application products and to frequently
upgrade them? (I myself was quite content with Word Vers 6, and IBM's
Writing Assistant before that.)
>And besides, while you can get other OSs preinstalled,
> the path of least resistance is to buy a computer with Windows
> installed.
Well then, why is Windows so often pre-installed? Who made that
decision to pre-install it, and why did they make it?
Patrick Scheible
> On Jan 4, 10:57=A0pm, Patrick Scheible <k...@zipcon.net> wrote:
>
> >In workplaces, often the person who makes the purchase choice is not
> > the person who uses the software.
>
> While true, the corporate purchasers are normally greatly influenced
> by the actual corporate users.
Where do you work, and are they hiring?
> If price is a consideration, then I
> would think Linux would be a huge hit being free; and other
> application products chosen since they're cheaper.
Price is a secondary consideration. First priority is covering the
purchasers ass. Any faults the Linux version had would be blamed on
them, while MS's faults are the industry standard.
> Has anyone actually _asked_ _multiple_ corporate purchasers why
> they chose MS system and application products and to frequently
> upgrade them? (I myself was quite content with Word Vers 6, and IBM's
> Writing Assistant before that.)
Word 6 was pretty good. Now the word processor part is buried under
unrelated garbage nobody in their right mind would be using a word
processor to do.
> >And besides, while you can get other OSs preinstalled,
> > the path of least resistance is to buy a computer with Windows
> > installed.
>
> Well then, why is Windows so often pre-installed? Who made that
> decision to pre-install it, and why did they make it?
In many cases, MS made them an offer they couldn't refuse: preinstall
Windows on every computer you sell and we'll sell your Windows licenses
for peanuts. Otherwise you'll have to pay full retail for Windows
licenses.
-- Patrick
Peter Flass
>
> Instead of comparing notes with the people who don't like MS, I would
> suggest asking the massive number people who _have_ chosen to buy its
> products why they have done so.
>
> I have heard ad nauseum that Lotus was better than Excel and
> WordPerfect was better than Word. Yet Lotus and WordPerfect were
> replaced by MS products. Again, you can't speculate, but need to
> actually ask people who made the purchase choice.
>
Because *That's what comes with the computer*. M$, by threats, bribery,
and general thuggery managed to get a lock on the preload market that
even IBM decided they couldn't afford to challenge, even though they had
*by far* a superior product. (Still is, in some ways). Most people just
take whatever comes on the computer.
Joe Pfeiffer
The recent netbook experience is instructive. Netbooks came out; they
were intended to be inexpensive and didn't have the resources to run
Windows, so they had Linux. MS immediately brought XP out of retirement
(I don't remember whether it had just been EOLed or if they'd actually
stopped shipping) and offered it to the netbook manufacturers
essentially for free. Gotta keep that preload....
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
Peter Grange
wrote:
>hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> On Jan 4, 10:57=A0pm, Patrick Scheible <k...@zipcon.net> wrote:
>>
>> >In workplaces, often the person who makes the purchase choice is not
>> > the person who uses the software.
>>
>> While true, the corporate purchasers are normally greatly influenced
>> by the actual corporate users.
>
>Where do you work, and are they hiring?
>
>> If price is a consideration, then I
>> would think Linux would be a huge hit being free; and other
>> application products chosen since they're cheaper.
>
>Price is a secondary consideration. First priority is covering the
>purchasers ass. Any faults the Linux version had would be blamed on
>them, while MS's faults are the industry standard.
Back in the 60s and 70s there was a saying "No-one ever got the sack
for buying IBM". Now it's MS instead of IBM. If you buy something
different you're going to have to justify it if something goes wrong.
Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
>The marketplace is funny and fickle and there are no guarantees. At
>one time a chain of restaurants known as Howard Johnson's owned the
>roadside food service market. Today they're all but forgotten--what
>happened to them?
According to wikipedia, there are three left.
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Charles Richmond
But you have "work alikes" like Star Office for Linux. You can use
that at home, and it will save files in Word format.
D.J.
Well, only in certain parts of the US. The food was awful and
overpriced. The ice cream was okay. As my parents and I travelled, we
stopped at one once, never again.
JimP.
--
Brushing aside the thorns so I can see the stars.
http://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ Drive-In movie theaters
http://poetry.drivein-jim.net/ Aug 26, 2009
jmfbahciv
> On Jan 4, 10:57 pm, Patrick Scheible <k...@zipcon.net> wrote:
>
>> In workplaces, often the person who makes the purchase choice is not
>> the person who uses the software.
>
> While true, the corporate purchasers are normally greatly influenced
> by the actual corporate users. If price is a consideration, then I
> would think Linux would be a huge hit being free; and other
> application products chosen since they're cheaper.
>
> Has anyone actually _asked_ _multiple_ corporate purchasers why
> they chose MS system and application products and to frequently
> upgrade them? (I myself was quite content with Word Vers 6, and IBM's
> Writing Assistant before that.)
Yes, I have asked. Furthermore, I listened rather than created
the answer I would rather hear.
<snip>
/BAH
jmfbahciv
college types from starving.
/BAH
ArarghMai...@not.at.arargh.com
wrote:
>On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 19:25:28 -0800 (PST), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
<snip>
>>
>>The marketplace is funny and fickle and there are no guarantees. At
>>one time a chain of restaurants known as Howard Johnson's owned the
>>roadside food service market. Today they're all but forgotten--what
>>happened to them?
>
>Well, only in certain parts of the US.
>The food was awful and overpriced. The ice cream was okay.
That's kinda the way I remember HoJo, also. :-)
>As my parents and I travelled, we stopped at one once, never again.
>
>JimP.
--
ArarghMail001 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html
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