Let's Intergrate the Firehouses!
Gary Lloy
Department's dirty little secret: less than 2% of its members are black.
Of course this is disgraceful and from this we can well understand why
white firemen don't want blacks honored as firemen -- there are hardly
any black firemen to speak of!
I say now is the time to "re-write" history. Let the rank and file keep
blacks and Puerto Ricans out of any WTC memorial they want. Let them
take all the credit for the heroism of Sept. 11. That's right. Let them
gloss over the fact that black and Hispanic men died too.
Then, after this is all said and done, let's increase the amount of
black and Hispanic firemen to 25% EACH across the board. That's to say,
we'll reduce the amount of white firemen 50%. Let's do that. Then, the
next time we want to include a minority in a statue honoring fallen
firemen, we'll hear no grousing about it at all.
Deal?
And one further question for all you white firemen so bent on keeping a
black face off that WTC statue: If the firemen rasing that flag were
three black guys, what would you be saying then?
Gary Lloy
pobo...@ix.netcom.com
But they WEREN'T black -- so what is your point, besides trolling?
(KM)
Gary Lloy
pobo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
The point is to expose your thinly-veiled racism. So, let's try it
again: If the firemen rasing that flag were three black guys, what would
you you be saying then?
Gary Lloy
>
Cheryl Galavitz
"Gary Lloy" <gary...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3C4AADC4...@netscape.net...
Joe & Liz
don't apply then you cant have the job.
"Gary Lloy" <gary...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3C4A5EDE...@netscape.net...
Kurt Ullman
wrote:
>And one further question for all you white firemen so bent on keeping a
>black face off that WTC statue: If the firemen rasing that flag were
>three black guys, what would you be saying then?
>
Probably nothing and then you would have to look harder for something
to reinforce the "fact" that whitey is out to get you...
------------------
Remember that anecdote is not the singular of data.
Joe & Liz
I don't think we should call the people depicted white or black anymore
because I think Gary is missing the point.....We the people want the faces
of firefighters Dan McWilliams, George Johnson and Billy Eisengrein depicted
if they choose to recreate that moment in history. If they are set on being
politically correct then they create a fictional monument depicting all of
the races working side by side or use a moment where multiple races worked
together.Don't change history and dishonor these 3 men as if they weren't
there.
"I thought it was ridiculous to change (the photograph) from the
beginning," said Brooklyn Firefighter Danny Lopez. "Those three guys raised
the flag, and it should be them." LOPEZ>>>must be from County Mayo in
Ireland....No I think that he is from a different Island. So it isn't just
whites....It is only a racial argument because the trolls like you wanted it
to be. To me it is all about honoring the men captured in the moment.
With all of this controversy think how valuable that statue just
became.......Was the artist thinking of this when he created it as well?
"Gary Lloy" <gary...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3C4AADC4...@netscape.net...
>
>
> pobo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
Kurt Ullman
<jcmc...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>With all of this controversy think how valuable that statue just
>became.......Was the artist thinking of this when he created it as well?
I don't think it did... afterall technically it is a violation of
copyright of the photographer so he can't do anything with it w/o the
okay of the photographer. In this context, the three FF can probably be told
to pound sand since their likenesses are no longer on the statute.
Cooper
>
>
>pobo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> Gary Lloy wrote:
>>
>>>The recent WTC statue flap has alerted the world to the N.Y. Fire
>>>Department's dirty little secret: less than 2% of its members are black.
>>>Of course this is disgraceful and from this we can well understand why
>>>white firemen don't want blacks honored as firemen -- there are hardly
>>>any black firemen to speak of!
>>>
>>>I say now is the time to "re-write" history. Let the rank and file keep
>>>blacks and Puerto Ricans out of any WTC memorial they want. Let them
>>>take all the credit for the heroism of Sept. 11. That's right. Let them
>>>gloss over the fact that black and Hispanic men died too.
>>>
>>>Then, after this is all said and done, let's increase the amount of
>>>black and Hispanic firemen to 25% EACH across the board. That's to say,
>>>we'll reduce the amount of white firemen 50%. Let's do that. Then, the
>>>next time we want to include a minority in a statue honoring fallen
>>>firemen, we'll hear no grousing about it at all.
>>>
>>>Deal?
>>>
>>>And one further question for all you white firemen so bent on keeping a
>>>black face off that WTC statue: If the firemen rasing that flag were
>>>three black guys, what would you be saying then?
That they were stealing it? (that's what you want to hear, right?)
Get a grip on reality, the overt racism here is coming from the knotted-panty
PC crowd who want to distort a moment in history.
No one is arguing that the WTC memorial shouldn't honor all NYFD firefighters;
whether they be Black, White, Hispanic, etc. The problem was with the manner in
which the events of 09/11 would be portrayed.
What if it actually was three Black *firefighters* whom were raising the flag
and the memorial was changed to *one* black firefighter and two other
ethnicities choosing by random or by lottery? I'll bet Rev. Al would be leading
a protest march down to City Hall quicker than you can say "Tawana Brawley".
(note: I substituted your misogynistic/gender biased use of the term "guys"...
there are female firefighters, too)
Not that it matters; in about 20 years it'll become just another graffiti
splashed hangout for three-card-monte hustlers and hot dog vendors.
Eatonfiremedic0911
While I normally don't respond to this type of trolling, apparrently you
have done your job well because you have aroused me sufficiently to do so.
First, I let me say I am a firefighter. Second, let me say I am a white
firefighter.
Having said that, let me say to you, that if three black firefighters had
raised the flag over the WTC sight and had their picture taken, I would
FULLY 100% support a memorial statue with their likenesses on it. Just as
if a female firefighter had been in on the act, I would fully support her
likeness being on the statue.
Sir, you can not rewrite history. History is the past by definition and you
cant change things that have already happened. You may feel free to change
the future if you like.
The three people who raised the flag were firefighters. First and foremost.
The 343 firefighters that died were firefighters, first and foremost. I
honestly don't know the racial or ethnic, or sexual breakdown, but I am sure
they were not all white or maybe even all male. But they were all
firefighters.
Sir, I am an American. I happen to be white. I don't run around saying I
am a White American. I am an American. I have a distaste for people who say
they are a xxxx-american. I have to wonder what is more important to them.
Being an xxxxx or being an American. JFK made a speech (it seems many years
ago now) asking something like "As not what your country can do for you, Ask
what you can do for your country" or words to that affect.
It is people that continually remind us of divisions, requests for quotas,
and the like that will continue to separate this country.
Rather, we need to remember that we are all humans on one planet and in this
country, all americans. We need to treat each other with equality and
fairness, not a quota system.
People should get jobs based on ability, not the fact that they happen to be
the "flavor" of the week or because we have to fill a quota. Quota systems
mean sometimes people of higher qualification get passed over. (How many
times are two people racially different qualified exactly the same). It is a
fact.
And let's put the boot on the other foot. Would you support a system that
would give a job to someone (possibly over you) based soley on the fact
management need to fill a slot with a different race or sex or sexual
preference.
And yes, if a black man got a job over me because he was better qualified,
I would support that. I would be angry because I lost the job, just as
anyone would be angry, but I would not be angry because I lost the job to a
black man. That is stupid.
Your title is "Let's Integrate the Firehouse", well personally, I have no
problem with that. I don't care if the brother (or sister, for that matter)
backing me up on the line is black, white, gay, female, lesbian, chinese or
whatever. I just care that they are trained properly and are doing their
job properly.
I could go on, but I won't.
Sir, you seek to inflame, ignite and most importantly divide (personal
opinion).
Until we all stop trying to divide and start to work together, we will never
be the "United" States.
my two cents
"Gary Lloy" <gary...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3C4A5EDE...@netscape.net...
Joe & Liz
"Eatonfiremedic0911" <eatonfi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:utC28.11396$X4.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Gary Lloy
Cheryl Galavitz wrote:
> I don't recall anyone ever trying to make a statue of MLK white????
MLK's statues commemorate his work. The proposed WTC statue commemorates
the fireman who died, not three guys raising a flag.
Gary Lloy
Gary Lloy
Joe & Liz wrote:
> I would say the same thing I am saying now..... keep it real!!!
> I don't think we should call the people depicted white or black anymore
> because I think Gary is missing the point.....We the people want the faces
> of firefighters Dan McWilliams, George Johnson and Billy Eisengrein depicted
> if they choose to recreate that moment in history. If they are set on being
> politically correct then they create a fictional monument depicting all of
> the races working side by side or use a moment where multiple races worked
> together.Don't change history and dishonor these 3 men as if they weren't
> there.
No, art doesn't work that way. The photo in question "inspired" the
statue. The statue is a memorial to the firemen who died, not
McWilliams, Johsnon, and Esengrein who for all we know might have been
down at Duffy's throwing back whiskey sours when the shit hit the fan.
>
> "I thought it was ridiculous to change (the photograph) from the
> beginning," said Brooklyn Firefighter Danny Lopez. "Those three guys raised
> the flag, and it should be them." LOPEZ>>>must be from County Mayo in
> Ireland....No I think that he is from a different Island. So it isn't just
> whites....It is only a racial argument because the trolls like you wanted it
> to be. To me it is all about honoring the men captured in the moment.
The fact that Danny's last name is "Lopez" doesn't mean he's right; and
if his sole argument is that the statue should be a faithful
reproduction of the event, he's wrong-- and more, he hasn't child's
understanding of art.
Gary Lloy
Gary Lloy
Kurt Ullman wrote:
> In article <XgA28.17633$Ln2.4...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Joe & Liz"
> <jcmc...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>
>>With all of this controversy think how valuable that statue just
>>became.......Was the artist thinking of this when he created it as well?
>>
> I don't think it did... afterall technically it is a violation of
> copyright of the photographer so he can't do anything with it w/o the
> okay of the photographer. In this context, the three FF can probably be told
> to pound sand since their likenesses are no longer on the statute.
First you guys try and cloak your racism in high-sounding slogans like
"don't re-write history"; then you hit us with legal threats. But my
question to you is this: Who do you think you're fooling? Do you really
think the world doesn't grasp your true motives?
Gary Lloy
Gary Lloy
Kurt Ullman wrote:
> In article <3C4A5EDE...@netscape.net>, Gary Lloy <gary...@netscape.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>And one further question for all you white firemen so bent on keeping a
>>black face off that WTC statue: If the firemen rasing that flag were
>>three black guys, what would you be saying then?
>>
>>
> Probably nothing and then you would have to look harder for something
> to reinforce the "fact" that whitey is out to get you...
No, Kurt, what you'd be saying is exactly what I'm saying -- the statue
is for the fireman who died, not three guys raising a flag.
Gary Lloy
Gary Lloy
Eatonfiremedic0911 wrote:
> Sir,
>
> While I normally don't respond to this type of trolling, apparrently you
> have done your job well because you have aroused me sufficiently to do so.
>
> First, I let me say I am a firefighter. Second, let me say I am a white
> firefighter.
>
> Having said that, let me say to you, that if three black firefighters had
> raised the flag over the WTC sight and had their picture taken, I would
> FULLY 100% support a memorial statue with their likenesses on it. Just as
> if a female firefighter had been in on the act, I would fully support her
> likeness being on the statue.
Bullshit, next point.
>
> Sir, you can not rewrite history. History is the past by definition and you
> cant change things that have already happened. You may feel free to change
> the future if you like.
The issue has nothing to do with "rewriting history", that's just the
self-serving rhetoric you've adopted and rather poorly thought-out
self-serving rhetoric at that. Statues *don't* depict history therefore
they can't rewrite it. Moreover, three guys raising a flag is not an
historic event, at least in this context. The historic event is the
death of so many firemen. Perhaps if you guys could grasp this you'd
have no problem with the statue...but I doubt that. Your problem with
the statue has nothing to do with "rewriting history" or all the other
high-sounding phrases you've cooked up. People of color around the globe
aren't fooled by that baloney. That's right, you guys have not only
embarrassed a whole lot of well-meaning folk, you've also turned a whole
bunch of people against you. And the sad thing about that is it's
happening just when the same folk were beginning to respect you.
Pretty amazing when you think of it. A few weeks ago there were no
greater heroes in the country; now you guys are bums again.
Gary Lloy
Kurt Ullman
wrote:
>
>
>Cheryl Galavitz wrote:
>
>> I don't recall anyone ever trying to make a statue of MLK white????
>
>
>MLK's statues commemorate his work. The proposed WTC statue commemorates
>the fireman who died, not three guys raising a flag.
>
the civil rights movement in the case of Dr. King and the people at the
WTC in the other case.
Kurt Ullman
wrote:
>
>First you guys try and cloak your racism in high-sounding slogans like
>"don't re-write history"; then you hit us with legal threats.
What is this "us" stuff?
But my
>question to you is this: Who do you think you're fooling? Do you really
>think the world doesn't grasp your true motives?
>
Or yours?
Kurt Ullman
wrote:
>> Probably nothing and then you would have to look harder for something
>> to reinforce the "fact" that whitey is out to get you...
>
>
>
>No, Kurt, what you'd be saying is exactly what I'm saying -- the statue
>is for the fireman who died, not three guys raising a flag.
>
Okay, you must be right. You know exactly what I would be saying despite
the fact you less than nothing about me. I will put your e-mail in address
book so that I can get in touch with you to find out what I am really saying
about things.
Even for a little troll man you are pathetically self-righteous.
Kurt Ullman
wrote:
>
>Pretty amazing when you think of it. A few weeks ago there were no
>greater heroes in the country; now you guys are bums again.
>
First you personify this with talk about threatening "us" with law suits,
then you decide to speak for me, then you presume to speak for the country.
I think we have passed self-righteous and headed toward delusions of grandeur.
Care to keep working toward grossly psychotic??
Tom Pound
wrote:
>The recent WTC statue flap has alerted the world to the N.Y. Fire
>Department's dirty little secret: less than 2% of its members are black.
>Of course this is disgraceful and from this we can well understand why
>white firemen don't want blacks honored as firemen -- there are hardly
>any black firemen to speak of!
>
>I say now is the time to "re-write" history. Let the rank and file keep
>blacks and Puerto Ricans out of any WTC memorial they want. Let them
>take all the credit for the heroism of Sept. 11. That's right. Let them
>gloss over the fact that black and Hispanic men died too.
>
>Then, after this is all said and done, let's increase the amount of
>black and Hispanic firemen to 25% EACH across the board. That's to say,
>we'll reduce the amount of white firemen 50%. Let's do that. Then, the
>next time we want to include a minority in a statue honoring fallen
>firemen, we'll hear no grousing about it at all.
>
>Deal?
It would be alright with me. But consider this: There were an
estimated 30,000 people in the WTC on 9-11. The total of deaths has
been about 2,800 or less than 10 %. And of those, 12.5% were
firemen. Now what if they had gone out (a few months earlier) and
got a bunch of dead heads for firemen just to fill a race quota. How
many people would have died ? 5,000 ? 10,000 ? More than likely.
And most of them probably black.
Some Blacks are making a bad mistake in long term thinking when they
insist on quotas. Remember our Jewish friends were always a smaller
minority than blacks are today. But they had to fight quotas that
held them "down" to their percent in the community.
In the future these same quotas can be used against the black people
as they become more educated than their white counterparts. It would
be as if the NBA were to suddenly say that only 13% of players could
be black.
Stuff like this has happened before. I would suggest that following
the Jewish example would be a long term better goal than whining about
racial quotas today. The Jews were in slavery thousands of years
before our black people were. So they are well equipped to help in
this area.
Heck ! Maybe there are not many young black men who would want to
take a low paying, life threatening job when their college degree
can buy them so much more.
Cheryl Galavitz
your writing ability. I just let the anger get the best of me and said
pretty much the same thing but not in such an eloquent way. Good job!
"Eatonfiremedic0911" <eatonfi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:utC28.11396$X4.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Eatonfiremedic0911
You make a statement, I give you my opinion which you then say "bullshit"
making me think you are calling me a liar.
This is America and you are entitled to your opinon, but I meant what I
said.
It would seem that since you are the gentleman with a problem with other
races, not I, you would be the racist.
Additionally, while I do agree that the death of so many people (not just
the FF's) is a historic event, I also think that the flag raising was a
historic event in and of itself, sending a message to the world regarding
the fact that america may be temporarily down, but we are not out.
In your reply, you keep referring to "you guys". I can only assume that you
are not a firefighter (correct me if I am wrong). Just curious.
If this statue is a monument to the people that died at the WTC, I would,
should think they could pick a different type of statute. If this statue is
a monument to the dead FF's, then it should stand. Again, a firefighter is
a firefighter.
I could think of several secenarios to get your opinion on, but then i would
be stooping to your level and my body doesn't go that low, so i will
regretably have to refrain.
"Gary Lloy" <gary...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3C4B11B...@netscape.net...
David McDuffee
> While I normally don't respond to this type of trolling, apparrently
> you have done your job well because you have aroused me sufficiently
> to do so.
I believe you have indeed been responding to a troll. That the troll
has been echoing many of the same sentiments I've expressed is a
little discomforting, but there it is.
> First, I let me say I am a firefighter. Second, let me say I am a
> white firefighter.
>
> Having said that, let me say to you, that if three black
> firefighters had raised the flag over the WTC sight and had their
> picture taken, I would FULLY 100% support a memorial statue with their
> likenesses on it. Just as if a female firefighter had been in on the
> act, I would fully support her likeness being on the statue.
I believe you're sincere. I would have supported a statue with the
likenesses of the three white firemen, if that is how it had been
designed. Where you and I perhaps part company is in PROTESTING a
statue which does NOT include their likenesses, but instead depicts
a black man, a white man, and a Hispanic man, to represent the
racial diversity of the firefighters who died in the WTC collapse.
> Sir, you can not rewrite history. History is the past by definition
> and you cant change things that have already happened. You may feel
> free to change the future if you like.
The photograph is past, having already been taken. The statue is
future, having not yet been cast. No one advocates retouching the
photos to alter the ethnicities of the men in the picture, but the
statue isn't about them, it's about the 343 men who died.
> [...]
> Until we all stop trying to divide and start to work together, we
> will never be the "United" States.
The firestorm of protest has succeeded in quashing the memorial as
designed. What form the new design will take is unknown at this
point.
You say we must all stop trying to divide, and I agree. I have said
before that I saw the original design as "inclusive", and the protest
surrounding it as "divisive". Perhaps we can agree to disagree on
that point, recognize that it's water under the bridge, and move on.
Whatever form the new memorial takes, the design will be informed by
the controversy which preceded it. Perhaps there will be no human
likeness at all.
--
David McDuffee
mcdu...@best.com
Gary Lloy
Kurt Ullman wrote:
> In article <3C4B0982...@netscape.net>, Gary Lloy <gary...@netscape.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Cheryl Galavitz wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I don't recall anyone ever trying to make a statue of MLK white????
>>>
>>
>>MLK's statues commemorate his work. The proposed WTC statue commemorates
>>the fireman who died, not three guys raising a flag.
>>
>>
> But that is there work, is it not? Both are representations of something,
> the civil rights movement in the case of Dr. King and the people at the
> WTC in the other case.
Fine, then if that's all the statue's representing, would you agree to
the use of a less controversial photo? The one I have in mind is of two
black firemen.
Gary Lloy
Cheryl Galavitz
"David McDuffee" <mcdu...@mcduffee.best.vwh.net> wrote in message
news:0kG28.7232$He.1...@sea-read.news.verio.net...
> The photograph is past, having already been taken. The statue is
> future, having not yet been cast. No one advocates retouching the
> photos to alter the ethnicities of the men in the picture, but the
> statue isn't about them, it's about the 343 men who died.
>
First.... 343 MEN didn't die.... and if you are an advocate of the statue
representing the 343 Firefighters that died, then why are you not choosing
to advocate a statue that includes the women that died too? Females are
definitely a minority (more of a minority than blacks or hispanics) in the
fire service, but yet they shouldn't be included as putting their lives on
the line as well? Politicians most likely didn't include them in their
version of the photo due to them not being a "big enough consituency" to
represent. So, if you really are for a diversified statue, why are you only
including men in your statements?
I am a professional female firefighter, yet, I didn't object to having 3
white men on the statue. I objected to the changing of the photo which was
the basis of the statue. If they want diversity, design one with that in
mind. But remember..... not only do statistics involve race, they also
involve gender. So, if they are going to be PC.. then they need to be sure
to represent what the law says cannot be discriminated against. When they
only include certain minorities to be PC, then those themselves that are
trying to say they are not discriminating in fact are against the ones they
choose to exclude. What they are doing is including those that can make a
difference to them at election time.
Just for future referecne, you might want to say "it's about the 343
firefighters who died".
Cheryl Galavitz
to.
>When they only include certain minorities to be
>PC, then those themselves that are trying to say
>they are not discriminating in fact are against the
>ones they choose to exclude.
The word "against" in the above statement is not what I meant to convey.
Poor choice of words on my part.... basically I was trying to say that are
discriminating when they try to say they are not. I hope everyone
understands what I meant and this doesn't start a whole new argument which
is definitely not what I was meaning. I did not mean they were "against"
anyone........
"Cheryl Galavitz" <ffch...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:lzG28.12319$HS4.6...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
Cheryl Galavitz
the front page of so many news magazines, etc... I would be more than happy
to have a monument with 2 black men on it. Gary, you seem to like to use
discrimination for your lot in life. A female ff is a hell of a lot more of
a minority and we go through things at work that men would never have to
worry about. But, I don't play gender cards, nor do I threaten to sue, nor
do I call those that don't want females in the service names. They are free
to have their opinion, as am I. You are more than welcome to your opinion.
Where I think everyone is upset is the fact you came into a message board
calling everyone racist when you don't even know who you are talking to.
For all you know I could be a black female firefighter. As could anyone
else on here be any race/gender since this is not an actual face to face
conversation. You have no right to judge others unless you choose to put
yourself in the spotlight to be judged as well. Atleast for most of us, I
can say collectively we have an open mind. As for you, you twist what we
have said to make it appropriate for your own thoughts.
Good luck in life to you. As for me, I am going to choose not to respond to
the antics of someone for all we know may be a caucasion person just trying
to see how many supporters he has out there. Who knows, we will never know
because we most likely will not meet the people on the boards face to face.
All I can say, whatever color you are.. you seem to thrive on controversy
and friction. Life is so much easier when you just go with the flow and
accept others for what they are instead of trying to force your opinion on
them. I would hate to have to live life where no one ever gets along
because someone thrives on disagreement.
"Gary Lloy" <gary...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3C4B35D1...@netscape.net...
Eatonfiremedic0911
First, thank you for your constructive critisism.
I guess what I am saying is that I have a problem with changing a
representation of a picture of an event.
If they want a memorial, which I fully support some type of memorial be
being built, then perhaps it should be of some other type. And if we MUST be
specify what types of firefighters died (just not firefighters), then by all
means each group should get proper, and perhaps equal, recognition.
I think that until we all realize that we are baiscally human beings, no
matter what color, sex, etc. and can all get along any memorials will have
to be race/gender neutral.
As I said in an earlier post, this is America and everyone is entitled to
their own views and opinions. I have no exclusive right. And, my opinon and
views may not even be the proper one.
I just wish everyone was as polite as you appear to be when expressing them.
"David McDuffee" <mcdu...@mcduffee.best.vwh.net> wrote in message
news:0kG28.7232$He.1...@sea-read.news.verio.net...
Gary Lloy
Cooper wrote:
And this is supposed to mean what? Any intelligent person understands
that the raising of the flag in-and-of itself wasn't heroic. Any schmuck
can raise a flag. It wasn't even orginal. In fact, it was more hotdoging
than anything else. Why weren't those slackers digging through rumble
trying to save lives? And now you want to construct a $186,000 statue
honoring them instead of the black, Hispanic, and white fireman who lost
their lives trying to save lives? See, that's what happens when you try
to defend racism; your thinking gets stupid.
> What if it actually was three Black *firefighters* whom were raising the flag
> and the memorial was changed to *one* black firefighter and two other
> ethnicities choosing by random or by lottery? I'll bet Rev. Al would be leading
> a protest march down to City Hall quicker than you can say "Tawana Brawley".
Yeah, and...?
Gary Lloy
Kurt Ullman
wrote:
>Fine, then if that's all the statue's representing, would you agree to
>the use of a less controversial photo? The one I have in mind is of two
>black firemen.
>
Before, no. Now yes because the chances are this largely a continuation
of your trollery. If someone else had suggested it I would have no problem.
Since you know what I really mean.. is this the right answer or did I really
mean to say something else?
Eatonfiremedic0911
you bring up a question on my part.
I most certainly know women died at the WTC incident, but did any female
FF's die there.
I dont want to start another thread pertaining to the statue, I am just
curious.
"Cheryl Galavitz" <ffch...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:lzG28.12319$HS4.6...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
>
Cheryl Galavitz
could take a poll of the newsgroup and see what everyone else thinks you
really mean...LOL.... As for as I am concerned.. I think you mean what ever
it is you are typing.... well, unless you do what I did and use the wrong
word for what you meant.... but I am sure you would correct yourself if that
was the case (what is the computer saying for foot in mouth?? toe in
hand???? I seem to do that all the time. My fingers don't always catch up
to my brain before I hit send)
"Kurt Ullman" <kurtu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vTG28.12098$X4.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Cheryl Galavitz
there were 3 women ff's killed. I read it either here or in the newspaper.
But, I cannot say with 100% certainty as I am only going on what was posted
in here being true... which we all know that sometimes that is not
necessarily the case. Don't worry, I didn't take any offense at all to the
question. I will try to verify that and get back to you at a later time.
Have a great week.
"Eatonfiremedic0911" <eatonfi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tUG28.10834$OS5.9...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Gary Lloy
Tom Pound wrote:
Now, I respect a poster like this. He let's his racism out full bore;
you don't see him hiding behind pathic slogans like "Don't re-write
history!" No, this fellow let's the chips fall where they may and to
hell with anyone who doesn't like it-- blacks are too stupid to be
fireman that's why why shouldn't be in the statue!
>
> Some Blacks are making a bad mistake in long term thinking when they
> insist on quotas. Remember our Jewish friends were always a smaller
> minority than blacks are today. But they had to fight quotas that
> held them "down" to their percent in the community.
Your logic eludes me here.
>
> In the future these same quotas can be used against the black people
> as they become more educated than their white counterparts. It would
> be as if the NBA were to suddenly say that only 13% of players could
> be black.
Okay, professor, time's up. Now, let go of the microphone, grab your
baloons, and move on -- quick -- before the orderlies get back.
Gary Lloy
>
Cheryl Galavitz
policewomen and 1 emt. I just figured they were talking about ff's when
they referred to the women in the same sentences as they talked about male
ff;s. According to the article I just read there are only 27 women out of
11,000 in FDNY.
this is an excerpt from the article I got the info from. I have posted a
link at the bottom for those that want to read the entire article.
"While no women firefighters were among those who died in the World Trade
Center, two female police officers and an emergency medical technician were
killed in the collapse.
And though the FDNY's female firefighters raced to the World Trade Center in
equal proportion to their male counterparts, their contributions have
received little attention. Heroism, they say, has been defined in decidedly
male terms."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/1203/p18s1-wmwo.html
"Cheryl Galavitz" <ffch...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:G_G28.12331$HS4.6...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
David McDuffee
> First.... 343 MEN didn't die.... and if you are an advocate of the
> statue representing the 343 Firefighters that died, then why are you
> not choosing to advocate a statue that includes the women that died
> too?
I didn't know. Definitely, I think they should honor the women
firefighters who died as well.
That's been part of the problem with history. Contributions by
certain groups have been recognized, while those of others have
been largely ignored.
> Just for future referecne, you might want to say "it's about the 343
> firefighters who died".
I definitely will.
--
David McDuffee
mcdu...@best.com
David McDuffee
> I think that until we all realize that we are basically human beings,
> will have to be race/gender neutral.
I agree with you completely. It shouldn't be an issue, and I'm a bit
uncomfortable myself putting so much emphasis on something (ethnicity)
which I think is, in the final analysis, irrelevant.
Unfortunately, we're still carrying all this baggage, as a nation, as
a species. History is full of representations of white men, while the
legitimate contributions of others have been too often pushed into the
background, or ignored altogether.
In an ideal world, a memorial to "firefighters" would suffice, and
everyone would properly assume that this included a representative
cross section of all Americans, without even giving it a second
thought. Three white firemen would be understood to represent a
multitude of firemen of all ethnicities, as would three black firemen,
because the concept of ethnicity itself would be no more important
than the color of shirt one chose to wear on a given day.
We haven't yet reached that point.
--
David McDuffee
mcdu...@best.com
Tom Pound
wrote:
I didn't say that. I said those who are qualified are too smart to
want it. The dumb ones would just be a danger to all. Including
black kids who needed rescuing when they catch their school on fire
with an exploding blunt.
>>
>> Some Blacks are making a bad mistake in long term thinking when they
>> insist on quotas. Remember our Jewish friends were always a smaller
>> minority than blacks are today. But they had to fight quotas that
>> held them "down" to their percent in the community.
>
>
>Your logic eludes me here.
That doesn't surprise me. You see, a hundred years ago, only a few
Jews were admitted to the better colleges because whites feared them.
Now they hold all the tenureships. This could happen to blacks when
they begin to be smarter than whites. Blacks can be held to 13 %
because that is what they are struggling for. I would not want to
be locked into a minority status. Let only the best in college now,
and later. Can't you see the possibilities ? I mean you do feel
the blacks will overcome whites on IQ and SAT tests in the future,
right ?
I am not a professor. Just a post grad working on my Phd in this
field.
Tom Pound
rashbick
black firefighters. Because they were all white, the statue should be all
white.
The Devil's Advocate©
(David McDuffee) wrote:
>I believe you're sincere. I would have supported a statue with the
>likenesses of the three white firemen, if that is how it had been
>designed. Where you and I perhaps part company is in PROTESTING a
>statue which does NOT include their likenesses, but instead depicts
>a black man, a white man, and a Hispanic man, to represent the
>racial diversity of the firefighters who died in the WTC collapse.
So if we have to portray the Constitutional Convention, do we paint
the delagates as black, white, Latino, Asian and Native American to
represent the diversity of America? Or do we represent them as the
dead white males that they are? Those firefighters portrayed were
actual persons, not merely intangible symbols. If I had been one of
those firefighters, I wouldn't want someone changing me into an Asian
man to fit someone's idea of what should be PC. That's bullshit.
The Devil's Advocate©
<eatonfi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>David,
>
>First, thank you for your constructive critisism.
>
>I guess what I am saying is that I have a problem with changing a
>representation of a picture of an event.
>
>If they want a memorial, which I fully support some type of memorial be
>being built, then perhaps it should be of some other type. And if we MUST be
>specify what types of firefighters died (just not firefighters), then by all
>means each group should get proper, and perhaps equal, recognition.
>
>I think that until we all realize that we are baiscally human beings, no
>matter what color, sex, etc. and can all get along any memorials will have
>to be race/gender neutral.
What I find frustrating is that people are so race-obsessed that you
can't even put up a statue depecting a real event with real people
without someone getting pissed about it and turning it into a racial
issue. In all honesty, I just can't understand that way of thinking,
and I many more in my generation feel the way I do. I am black, I
wouldn't have thought a damned thing about the issue had it not been
turned into a national event. I suspect most blacks wouldn't have been
offended by a statue showing the several white men, that the idea of
even getting offended by it probably wouldn't even had arisen if not
for it being raised on the news.
If you want to see another sickening example of political correctness,
look at that Elvis Mitchell review of Black Hawk Down in the NY Times.
The movie is alledgedly racist because it showed black Somalis
attacking white people. I guess it doesn't occur to him the movie is
based on a real incident. I guess the Somalis should've been portrayed
as white.
http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?res=9903E3D61031F93BA15751C1A9679C8B63
The Lunatick
> black and Hispanic firemen to 25% EACH across the board. That's to say,
> we'll reduce the amount of white firemen 50%. Let's do that. Then, the
> next time we want to include a minority in a statue honoring fallen
> firemen, we'll hear no grousing about it at all.
>
> Deal?
Um better idea how about you go back under your bridge.
I am so sick of the let's hire this group or that sex, How about we hire the
most qualified individuals who can do the job and not the (fill in gender,
race and creed type her) type that is needed to make the numbers look good.
I don't care who backing me up as long as they can haul my ass out if i get
deep in trouble.
--
Jay Hellmann
FF/EMT-P
(add phychobabble quote here......................)
DarkStar
<NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> put forth:
...
>What I find frustrating is that people are so race-obsessed that you
>can't even put up a statue depecting a real event with real people
>without someone getting pissed about it and turning it into a racial
>issue.
You mean like when the parents of a local school system went nuts
because a play had a Black person playing Jesus?
>In all honesty, I just can't understand that way of thinking,
>and I many more in my generation feel the way I do. I am black, I
>wouldn't have thought a damned thing about the issue had it not been
>turned into a national event. I suspect most blacks wouldn't have been
>offended by a statue showing the several white men, that the idea of
>even getting offended by it probably wouldn't even had arisen if not
>for it being raised on the news.
It was whites being offended not Blacks. But I guess that's a point
that skipped your feeble brain.
>If you want to see another sickening example of political correctness,
>look at that Elvis Mitchell review of Black Hawk Down in the NY Times.
>The movie is alledgedly racist because it showed black Somalis
>attacking white people. I guess it doesn't occur to him the movie is
>based on a real incident. I guess the Somalis should've been portrayed
>as white.
>
>http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?res=9903E3D61031F93BA15751C1A9679C8B63
How do you know that the events happened the way the miltary people
said it happened?
The Mai Lai (spelling?) Massacre is still "in dispute."
---
"Corporatized or idealized, hip-hop is the American Dream and the African
American Nightmare rolled into one fat-ass blunt."
Charles Aaron Spin (Nov.1998)
Ed Brown - dark...@toad.net
http://www.toad.net/~darkstar
PubKey http://www.toad.net/~darkstar/public_key.html
Cooper
And if that being the case; why would you want any part of a memorial where
a Black firefighter is portrayed as a flag raising "schmuck"?
>It wasn't even orginal. In fact, it was more hotdoging
>than anything else. Why weren't those slackers digging through rumble
>trying to save lives? And now you want to construct a $186,000 statue
>honoring them instead of the black, Hispanic, and white fireman who lost
>their lives trying to save lives?
You haven't been paying attention, have you?
>See, that's what happens when you try
>to defend racism; your thinking gets stupid.
Well, lets see here. It's probably a given that in addition to the firefighters
memorial that there will also be one that pays respect to the 2,000+ civilian
causalities. In honor of them, why not commision a statue of the "Dust Lady"
http://www.danmusico.com/images/press/photo_dustlady2_1.jpg only portray her as
being white?
>> What if it actually was three Black *firefighters* whom were raising the flag
>> and the memorial was changed to *one* black firefighter and two other
>> ethnicities choosing by random or by lottery? I'll bet Rev. Al would be leading
>> a protest march down to City Hall quicker than you can say "Tawana Brawley".
>
>
>Yeah, and...?
So, then you agree that a double standard exists? (that the Black community
would be justified in protesting if the shoe were on the other foot).
Brad Bilger
">
> And one further question for all you white firemen so bent on keeping a
> black face off that WTC statue: If the firemen rasing that flag were
> three black guys, what would you be saying then?
>
Gary,
I would say not one word.... As a Fire Fighter, I would be Proud!.. If the
picture was of three Black Fire fighters raising the flag, then so should
the statue be of three Black Fire Fighters.. I would point to it with
Pride and respect and give the honor that they were due. If the picture was
of three Female Fire Fighters, I would be just as proud and as honored.
As quoted on Fox News concerning the use of Multi-Ethnic representation on
the statue..
"Some applauded the move. "I think the artistic expression of diversity
would supersede any concern over factual correctness," said Kevin James, a
member of the Vulcan Society, which represents black firefighters."
(http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,42899,00.html)
Excuse me, but I believe that the "Factual Correctness" of the statue should
be kept as it is.. If the artist wants to design a memorial similar to the
Vietnam Veterans memorial in DC that represents the multi-ethnicity of the
Fire Fighters present, I would have no problem with that at all.
Additionally, I feel that the subject matter of the photograph wouldn't make
a good memorial, because they only represent the Fire Fighters that were
lost. Nothing is mentioned about the Police, EMS, Port Authority personnel
and all the others that died trying to save others in the attack.
If "Artistic Expression" is the question, then let the artist design his own
memorial.
As a white fire fighter that works daily side by side with Black Fire
fighters, White Fire Fighters, Female Fire Fighters and Latino Fire
fighters, I don't care what color/sex they are, as long as the can do the
job. In the Smoke and the flames, they are all the same..
The Devil's Advocate©
wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 05:30:11 GMT, The Devil's Advocate©
><NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> put forth:
>
>
>...
>
>>What I find frustrating is that people are so race-obsessed that you
>>can't even put up a statue depecting a real event with real people
>>without someone getting pissed about it and turning it into a racial
>>issue.
>
>You mean like when the parents of a local school system went nuts
>because a play had a Black person playing Jesus?
Uh, Jesus died quite some time ago, I don't think he's around to
dispute the way his likeness is portrayed, unlike the firefighters.
Stupid.
>>In all honesty, I just can't understand that way of thinking,
>>and I many more in my generation feel the way I do. I am black, I
>>wouldn't have thought a damned thing about the issue had it not been
>>turned into a national event. I suspect most blacks wouldn't have been
>>offended by a statue showing the several white men, that the idea of
>>even getting offended by it probably wouldn't even had arisen if not
>>for it being raised on the news.
>
>It was whites being offended not Blacks. But I guess that's a point
>that skipped your feeble brain.
I could care less who brought it up, the whole incident is bullshit.
>
>>If you want to see another sickening example of political correctness,
>>look at that Elvis Mitchell review of Black Hawk Down in the NY Times.
>>The movie is alledgedly racist because it showed black Somalis
>>attacking white people. I guess it doesn't occur to him the movie is
>>based on a real incident. I guess the Somalis should've been portrayed
>>as white.
>>
>>http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?res=9903E3D61031F93BA15751C1A9679C8B63
>
>How do you know that the events happened the way the miltary people
>said it happened?
>
>The Mai Lai (spelling?) Massacre is still "in dispute."
So you think it's a racist movie too, huh? Figures...
zyro
firefighters raising a flag:
back when the murrah building was blown up by mcveigh, there was a
picture of a firefighter carrying an infant. you all remember it, we
all do. it was incredibly touching. that photo is burned on the memory
of most thoughtful americans. me personally, it was the flowers on the
fence that did it for me.
now we have another tragedy. these terrorists outdid mcveigh, and now
i suppose those who want to burn memories into our heads figure they
have to outdo what was done last time. this is a very bad idea.
speaking as someone who, at one time in my life, scraped and shoveled
rust out the insides of chemical storage tanks with nothing more than
a hankerchief over my face, i know what it's like to work in dangerous
places. there are millions of americans who have dangerous jobs, and
we all depend on those people just like we depend on firefighters.
sometimes danger comes with the territory. everybody develops skills
to keep their jobs and what seems superhuman to some folks, is just
part of a days work to others.
whether or not what many firefighters did on that day and the days
that followed seemed superhuman to all of us americans or some of us,
we can debate forever. but what should be clear to anyone who gives it
some thought, is that raising a flag is not an act of heroism. just
like most folks, i found the picture patriotic and appropriately
sentimental. just like most folks i raised a flag myself. it wasn't
the first time and it won't be the last time. a picture is worth 1000
words, but they'll be 1000 different words to 1000 different people.
it was a great picture and should have been left there.
now somebody comes along and says, hey a picture is not enough, let's
erect a statue. well, i say that's going too far. i don't need to be
beat over the head with this and i don't appreciate being told whom i
should consider a hero. these three don't qualify, not for more than
the picture. the picture is what it is and that's plenty.
as it is, i'm a little bit grudging in even using the word hero.
nobody needs to be reminded how important a firefighter's job is, or
an air-traffic controller, or a bailiff for that matter. and nobody
knows this like those firefighters themselves. i don't think there is
much anybody can do that hasn't already been done in support of those
brave people who died just doing their jobs. nobody is going to
forget, ever. in case anyone forgot, there is a long well-respect
tradition of making perfect memorial symbols of those who die. they're
call gravestones. so really what purpose does a statue serve, when
songs have been sung, prayers been sent, gravestones set and images
printed around the world? hero making.
in the hero-making business political points have to be made. and
guess what, the fire department itself wanted to make a political
point about diversity by suggesting that instead of the three white
men a mix of ethnicities should be cast on the statue. should that
come as a surprise? furthermore this controversy has become a media
event picked up by conservative and liberal magazines and editorials.
what did you expect? that people would just give quiet and dignified
support and understanding for some people who are just trying their
best to do a good job? that was what you should have expected, but you
asked for more.
the moment firefighters want graven images made of them, when they
decide to become icons and idols of heroism, patriotism and all that's
good and great about america, they subject themselves to a different
level of criticism, and deservedly so.
every american has, somewhere in their hearts, a soft spot for some
image, some soundbite, some newspaper clipping they read, some video
they saw, some story they heard. it's impossible at this late date not
to. so when people insist on piling one more image, this time a
controversial statue, into our hearts, is it any wonder that hearts
turn hard?
we've seen all we need to see. we've heard all we need to hear. it
doesn't take all day to recognize the sun. we know the story; we saw
the picture. i thought we were all supposed to get back to our jobs.
my advice? try to be good firefighters, don't try to be good heroes.
ps. did you ever stop to wonder why the american flag works as a
symbol of patriotism and heroism all by itself? because it doesn't
have any faces on it.
Gary Lloy
Tom Pound wrote:
Sorry, pal, but you write from ignorance. I can point to any number of
cities where black firemen are doing a tremendous job. You see, I'm from
New York myself. I was raised around you guys. I know all the
self-serving baloney you use to justify your bullshit, that's why I see
right through your "don't re-write history" crap.
>
>
>>>Some Blacks are making a bad mistake in long term thinking when they
>>>insist on quotas. Remember our Jewish friends were always a smaller
>>>minority than blacks are today. But they had to fight quotas that
>>>held them "down" to their percent in the community.
>>>
>>
>>Your logic eludes me here.
>>
>
> That doesn't surprise me. You see, a hundred years ago, only a few
> Jews were admitted to the better colleges because whites feared them.
> Now they hold all the tenureships. This could happen to blacks when
> they begin to be smarter than whites. Blacks can be held to 13 %
> because that is what they are struggling for. I would not want to
> be locked into a minority status. Let only the best in college now,
> and later. Can't you see the possibilities ? I mean you do feel
> the blacks will overcome whites on IQ and SAT tests in the future,
> right ?
Not necessarily, but what does this have to do with integrating New York
firehouses? You need to keep your eye on the ball. New York, Boston, and
Philadelphia are the last bastions off racism in the fire department and
this needs to change. This statue flap is an insult to every black
person in New York and the only reason it's happening is because you
guys have a stranglehold on fire department jobs. Well, you should have
kept your big mouths shut, maybe you'd have milked a few more
generations out of the thing.
>
> I am not a professor. Just a post grad working on my Phd in this
> field.
> Tom Pound
That's smart because the party is going to end real soon.
Gary Lloy
>
>
Gary Lloy
Tom Pound wrote:
Sorry, pal, but you write from ignorance. I can point to any number of
cities where black firemen are doing a tremendous job. You see, I'm from
New York myself. I was raised around you guys. I know all the
self-serving baloney you use to justify your bullshit, that's why I see
right through your "don't re-write history" dodge.
>
>
>>>Some Blacks are making a bad mistake in long term thinking when they
>>>insist on quotas. Remember our Jewish friends were always a smaller
>>>minority than blacks are today. But they had to fight quotas that
>>>held them "down" to their percent in the community.
>>>
>>
>>Your logic eludes me here.
>>
>
> That doesn't surprise me. You see, a hundred years ago, only a few
> Jews were admitted to the better colleges because whites feared them.
> Now they hold all the tenureships. This could happen to blacks when
> they begin to be smarter than whites. Blacks can be held to 13 %
> because that is what they are struggling for. I would not want to
> be locked into a minority status. Let only the best in college now,
> and later. Can't you see the possibilities ? I mean you do feel
> the blacks will overcome whites on IQ and SAT tests in the future,
> right ?
Not necessarily, but what does this have to do with integrating New York
firehouses? You need to keep your eye on the ball. New York, Boston, and
Philadelphia are the last bastions off racism in the fire department and
this needs to change. This statue flap is an insult to every black
person in New York and the only reason it's happening is because you
guys have a stranglehold on fire department jobs. Well, you should have
kept your big mouths shut, maybe you'd have milked a few more
generations out of the thing.
>
> I am not a professor. Just a post grad working on my Phd in this
> field.
> Tom Pound
That's smart because the party is going to end real soon.
Gary Lloy
>
>
Espera...@shapeless.mass.net
wrote in alt.firefighters:
Wait ... I have the final solution!
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ ESPERANTO HUMANOID }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}.
Here *IT* is.
0
/|\
|
/\
No sex.
No features.
No race.
No worries.
Sure, it will never exist in reality, but WHO CARES?
Ahahahahaha! ;-)
It should at least reduce the U.S. moron factor to some extent.
Gary Lloy
The Lunatick wrote:
Yeah, right, but consider this: In the history of the NYFD there's never
been a son of the firemen who's failed the test. Why do you think this
is? What's going on here? Across the nation fire departments are
wonderfully integrated, why not New York?
Gary
Gary Lloy
Brad Bilger wrote:
> <snip>
> ">
>
>>And one further question for all you white firemen so bent on keeping a
>>black face off that WTC statue: If the firemen rasing that flag were
>>three black guys, what would you be saying then?
>>
>>Gary Lloy
>>
>
> Gary,
> I would say not one word.... As a Fire Fighter, I would be Proud!.. If the
> picture was of three Black Fire fighters raising the flag, then so should
> the statue be of three Black Fire Fighters.. I would point to it with
> Pride and respect and give the honor that they were due. If the picture was
> of three Female Fire Fighters, I would be just as proud and as honored.
What? do you guys make up this stuff as you go? I assure you your rule
about how to do art has no validity outside Duffy's bar over in Bensonhurst.
>
> As quoted on Fox News concerning the use of Multi-Ethnic representation on
> the statue..
>
> "Some applauded the move. "I think the artistic expression of diversity
> would supersede any concern over factual correctness," said Kevin James, a
> member of the Vulcan Society, which represents black firefighters."
> (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,42899,00.html)
>
> Excuse me, but I believe that the "Factual Correctness" of the statue should
> be kept as it is.. If the artist wants to design a memorial similar to the
> Vietnam Veterans memorial in DC that represents the multi-ethnicity of the
> Fire Fighters present, I would have no problem with that at all.
This is choice. A fireman telling an artist how to do his job. Suppose
we let artists tell you how to fight a fire?
>
> Additionally, I feel that the subject matter of the photograph wouldn't make
> a good memorial, because they only represent the Fire Fighters that were
> lost. Nothing is mentioned about the Police, EMS, Port Authority personnel
> and all the others that died trying to save others in the attack.
But it's not your job to make these decisions. You're not qualified and
the people who are decided on a multi-ethnic statue. These people are
more informed, better educated, and --most importantly -- more
sophisticated then you, that's why they're not pissing on fires anymore.
>
> If "Artistic Expression" is the question, then let the artist design his own
> memorial.
What you actually mean is let him design one without a black man in it
because if he does you'll never accept it.
>
> As a white fire fighter that works daily side by side with Black Fire
> fighters, White Fire Fighters, Female Fire Fighters and Latino Fire
> fighters, I don't care what color/sex they are, as long as the can do the
> job. In the Smoke and the flames, they are all the same..
Cool. You can talk the talk, too bad you don't walk the walk.
Gary
>
>
>
>
>
Kurt Ullman
wrote:
>
>The Mai Lai (spelling?) Massacre is still "in dispute."
>
So is the holocaust... by roughly same (small) number of people..
Wayne Johnson
<NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> wrote:
>So if we have to portray the Constitutional Convention, do we paint
>the delagates as black, white, Latino, Asian and Native American to
>represent the diversity of America?
Hey, suckass.
This is not about some damned snapshot.
This is about the people that died.
Wayne "No wonder people tag you as a tom" Johnson
************************************************
"Never answer an anonymous letter."
- Yogi Berra
DarkStar
<NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> put forth:
>On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 00:46:29 -0500, DarkStar <dark...@toad.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 05:30:11 GMT, The Devil's Advocate©
>><NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> put forth:
>>
>>
>>...
>>
>>>What I find frustrating is that people are so race-obsessed that you
>>>can't even put up a statue depecting a real event with real people
>>>without someone getting pissed about it and turning it into a racial
>>>issue.
>>
>>You mean like when the parents of a local school system went nuts
>>because a play had a Black person playing Jesus?
>
>Uh, Jesus died quite some time ago, I don't think he's around to
>dispute the way his likeness is portrayed, unlike the firefighters.
The Bible gives a nice description, and it's a "person of color."
You whine and bitch about "race-obsessed" but don't mention shit when
white people go ballistic over something like what I mentioned.
And on a day to honor MLK, Jr., white people are calling into a local
radio show complaining about the day being a day to honor him.
>Stupid.
>
>>>In all honesty, I just can't understand that way of thinking,
>>>and I many more in my generation feel the way I do. I am black, I
>>>wouldn't have thought a damned thing about the issue had it not been
>>>turned into a national event. I suspect most blacks wouldn't have been
>>>offended by a statue showing the several white men, that the idea of
>>>even getting offended by it probably wouldn't even had arisen if not
>>>for it being raised on the news.
>>
>>It was whites being offended not Blacks. But I guess that's a point
>>that skipped your feeble brain.
>
>I could care less who brought it up, the whole incident is bullshit.
Facts never do matter to you.
>>
>>>If you want to see another sickening example of political correctness,
>>>look at that Elvis Mitchell review of Black Hawk Down in the NY Times.
>>>The movie is alledgedly racist because it showed black Somalis
>>>attacking white people. I guess it doesn't occur to him the movie is
>>>based on a real incident. I guess the Somalis should've been portrayed
>>>as white.
>>>
>>>http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?res=9903E3D61031F93BA15751C1A9679C8B63
>>
>>How do you know that the events happened the way the miltary people
>>said it happened?
>>
>>The Mai Lai (spelling?) Massacre is still "in dispute."
>
>So you think it's a racist movie too, huh? Figures...
I don't know about the movie and really don't give a damn. But there's
a saying that victors get to write history that seems fitting.
DarkStar
put forth:
>In article <38an4u874o2ra8417...@4ax.com>, dark...@toad.net
>wrote:
>
>>
>>The Mai Lai (spelling?) Massacre is still "in dispute."
>>
> So is the holocaust... by roughly same (small) number of people..
The U.S. military is a "small" number of people?
Cheryl Galavitz
some time and the ff's that were on their offtime not give you the time of
day? Is that what this is all about? Did you want to be a ff and not make
it? Is that where all these sour grapes are coming from? You stated in an
earlier post you didn't come to our newsgroup and start these controversial
threads, but if you look at the history of each of these threads.. you are
the first poster on just about every one of them. Go back to your
"african-american" newsgroup (which you have been posting these messages to
as well) and have your bitch session there. Or were they not stimulating
enough for you?
"Gary Lloy" <gary...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3C4BF2AA...@netscape.net...
Gary Lloy
Cheryl Galavitz wrote:
> Gary keeps bring Duffy's bar into the picture..... did you go in there at
> some time and the ff's that were on their offtime not give you the time of
> day? Is that what this is all about? Did you want to be a ff and not make
> it? Is that where all these sour grapes are coming from? You stated in an
> earlier post you didn't come to our newsgroup and start these controversial
> threads, but if you look at the history of each of these threads.. you are
> the first poster on just about every one of them. Go back to your
> "african-american" newsgroup (which you have been posting these messages to
> as well) and have your bitch session there. Or were they not stimulating
> enough for you?
You can kiss my black ass, Cheryl. This isn't Bensonhurst. You don't
tell me where I belong.
Gary (aka Nat Turner)
Tom Pound
wrote:
>
>
>Tom Pound wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:59:38 -0500, Gary Lloy <gary...@netscape.net>
>>
>> I didn't say that. I said those who are qualified are too smart to
>> want it. The dumb ones would just be a danger to all. Including
>> black kids who needed rescuing when they catch their school on fire
>> with an exploding blunt.
>
>
>Sorry, pal, but you write from ignorance. I can point to any number of
>cities where black firemen are doing a tremendous job. You see, I'm from
>New York myself. I was raised around you guys. I know all the
>self-serving baloney you use to justify your bullshit, that's why I see
>right through your "don't re-write history" crap.
We probably aren't as far apart as you would like to think. It is not
so much the goal but the methods to get to the goal where we differ.
Tom Pound
Alan Sutton
made" by a landmark photograph, please let it drop it is not an ethnic thing
at all, it's a replica of a piece of HISTORY. Let this thing go and get on
with your lives. I only hope that the statue is made to an exact replica of
the photograph including the firefighter with the "podgy" belly. I am a
firefighter in Toronto, Canada, and before anyone starts giving me a hard
time I did go to NYC a few weeks after September 11 and attended as many
funerals for my brothers as I could on my 4 day trip.
God Bless and stay Safe
Alan
"Gary Lloy" <gary...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3C4C50F7...@netscape.net...
About Time
the nation today:
_____________________________________________
3 White guys raised the flag -- statue should reflect that...
It was late on the afternoon of Sept. 11. The towers were down, the
firefighters in retreat. That's when one of them, Dan McWilliams, saw the
flag. An American flag, attached to a broken pole, lying among the debris in
the nearby marina. He picked it up and started back toward Ground Zero.
Along the way, he ran into a couple of other firefighters, George Johnson
and Billy Eisengrein, who saw what he had in mind and volunteered to give
him a hand. When they reached the disaster site, the three men were
surprised to find an intact flagpole jutting from an intact ledge. They
climbed up and rigged their flag to it.
Unknown to them, a news photographer was watching. He raised his camera and
snapped a shot.
You've seen Thomas Franklin's picture a hundred times. It's among the most
famous photographs that awful day produced. For many people, it was an eerie
echo of another celebrated shot -- the flag-raising on Iwo Jima. In one
frame of film, Franklin managed to capture the resilience and resolve of a
shaken nation. People look at that picture and see the best of America.
Or at least, most people do. The fire department, ironically enough, seems
to see something else entirely.
This has become apparent since work began on a memorial statue modeled on
the photograph. As it happens, Eisengrein, Johnson and McWilliams are white.
This was probably not a problem for them, but it is for the fire department.
So it, along with the statue makers and the company that owns the
department's headquarters building, came up with a solution.
Namely, the statue will depict one of the firefighters as black, another as
Hispanic. This, they say, will make it more symbolically inclusive of all
the hundreds of firefighters who died that day.
And when you think about it, that makes a certain kind of sense. Nonsense,
to be exact.
I wouldn't blame those three firefighters if they felt a bit betrayed right
now. Certainly, one does not usually get into that business because one is
looking for ego strokes. On the other hand, they were the ones who raised
that flag and inspired a nation. Not some mythical black, Hispanic, Asian or
female firefighters called forth from some bureaucrat's imagination to
represent diversity.
They did it. Three white guys. So the statue ought to reflect that fact.
That it apparently won't says nothing about diversity and everything about
political correctness.
And frankly, blacks and Hispanics should be just as insulted by this as the
white guys whose images are being erased. Maybe even more so.
Consider: New York City, according to the last census, is home to eight
million people, 26.6 percent of whom are black, 27 percent of whom are
Hispanic. Yet a fire department spokesman says that, of its 11,500 men and
women, only 2.7 percent of the department's firefighters are black and only
3.2 percent Hispanic. In other words, a department that supposedly values
diversity enough that it will rewrite history to depict it has yet to
achieve it -- or even come close -- within its own ranks.
Why am I not surprised? We do this all the time -- place symbolism over
substance as if nobody's smart enough to know the difference. The fire
department's gesture is a condescending pat on the head to its black and
Hispanic constituencies, a demeaning and patronizing sop to diversity. Who
gives a rat's hindquarters about seeing black and Hispanic people on some
statue where they don't belong? I'd rather see them on fire trucks where
they do.
For my money, this whole affair bespeaks a certain smallness of vision.
After all, to the degree Thomas Franklin's picture reflects any human
distinction, it's neither race nor ethnicity. It's nationality.
We were attacked, not because some of us are black or some Hispanic, but
because all of us are Americans. Contrary to popular belief, these
identities are not mutually exclusive.
So there's something inherently offensive in the belief that the image of
these three white men must be doctored so that it will represent people with
brown skin or Spanish surnames.
The truth is, it already does.
Leonard Pitts Jr.'s column runs in Living & Arts every Thursday and
Saturday. Call him toll-free at 888-251-4407.
>
> You can kiss my black ass, Cheryl. This isn't Bensonhurst. You don't
> tell me where I belong.
>
> Gary (aka Nat Turner)
>
> >
>
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Wayne Johnson
wrote:
>You can kiss my black ass, Cheryl.
Your ass ain't Black, and never was.
Wayne "Who are you trying to fool this time" Johnson
Wayne Johnson
wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:08:50 GMT, kurtu...@yahoo.com (Kurt Ullman)
>put forth:
>
>>In article <38an4u874o2ra8417...@4ax.com>, dark...@toad.net
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>The Mai Lai (spelling?) Massacre is still "in dispute."
>>>
>> So is the holocaust... by roughly same (small) number of people..
>
>The U.S. military is a "small" number of people?
I don't think what happened at My Lai is in dispute, by the military
or anybody else.
It was American soldiers on a reconnaisance chopper that stopped the
massacre. Lt. William Calley was prosecuted for it, got whitewashed,
served little time, and that was about it.
No one disputes the facts today that I know of.
Wayne "Everybody knew, and knows, what happened" Johnson
DarkStar
Johnson) put forth:
>On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:50:14 -0500, DarkStar <dark...@toad.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:08:50 GMT, kurtu...@yahoo.com (Kurt Ullman)
>>put forth:
>>
>>>In article <38an4u874o2ra8417...@4ax.com>, dark...@toad.net
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>The Mai Lai (spelling?) Massacre is still "in dispute."
>>>>
>>> So is the holocaust... by roughly same (small) number of people..
>>
>>The U.S. military is a "small" number of people?
>
>I don't think what happened at My Lai is in dispute, by the military
>or anybody else.
The extent of who knew and how extensive similar situations were was
and still is up for debate.
>It was American soldiers on a reconnaisance chopper that stopped the
>massacre. Lt. William Calley was prosecuted for it, got whitewashed,
>served little time, and that was about it.
Why was there a white wash? Who knew? Who "really" gave the go ahead?
>No one disputes the facts today that I know of.
>
>Wayne "Everybody knew, and knows, what happened" Johnson
>
>************************************************
>
>"Never answer an anonymous letter."
>
>- Yogi Berra
---
The Devil's Advocate©
wrote:
>You whine and bitch about "race-obsessed" but don't mention shit when
>white people go ballistic over something like what I mentioned.
How the hell do you know?
>And on a day to honor MLK, Jr., white people are calling into a local
>radio show complaining about the day being a day to honor him.
I thought you don't listen to conservative radio. I listened to a
little radio today, didn't hear many complaints at all other than
someone that said he faked his dissertation.
Wayne Johnson
wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 01:27:04 GMT, ciac...@hotmail.com (Wayne
>Johnson) put forth:
>>I don't think what happened at My Lai is in dispute, by the military
>>or anybody else.
>
>The extent of who knew and how extensive similar situations were was
>and still is up for debate.
It's still coming out. It was John Kerry who got outed by a fellow
SEAL team member about a village he and his team attacked, where
people were massacred after a psy-ops/intel mission went bad.
No one person, or one authority, knows how often this happened. Much
of it was never reported to any higher authority than company level,
and it was usually unrecorded even then.
I would say, from talking to people, that the number was hellishly
high. It was that kind of war, where no one knew who the combatants
on the Vietnamese side really were, so many people who weren't
combatants at all - and were never armed - wound up being gunned down
or blown to hell without anyone even counting the bodies.
>>It was American soldiers on a reconnaisance chopper that stopped the
>>massacre. Lt. William Calley was prosecuted for it, got whitewashed,
>>served little time, and that was about it.
>
>Why was there a white wash?
Calley was a dumbass who was the company commander by default.
Company command rarely goes to a lieutenant, but this was a fresh unit
from Hawaii - only three months in 'Nam - and Calley was a gung-ho
asshole with no war experience.
He passed the buck on the massacre to Captain Ernest Medina, who
denied giving the order to kill civilians.
Westmoreland himself applauded this action.
>Who knew?
Medina. A real asshole, he referred to Calley as "Lieutenant
Shithead" to his face, in front of the men. Calley wanted to prove
how tough he was, and gave the orders to kill civilians. He
personally threw a toddler climing out of a ditch back into it, and
blew the baby to pieces with his M-16.
>Who "really" gave the go ahead?
God knows.
Check this out:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/mylai.htm
For a very readable account of this mess:
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/mylai.htm
From his high school's website, on his sentencing:
http://www.dade.k12.fl.us/edison/calley.htm
"The My Lai Massacre might have gone unreported had not a soldier in
Lt. Calley's division written his Congressman about the events of that
day. Initial military investigation into the incident reported no
breach of military conduct had occurred. After Congress pressed,
however, the military charged and convicted Lt. Calley of murder, and
sentenced him to life imprisonment at hard labor. William Calley was
the only person ever charged in connection with the events at My Lai."
"The Army reduced his sentence to 20 years, President Richard Nixon in
1971 ordered him released from prison and placed under house arrest,
and finally a federal judge threw out all charges against William
Calley and ordered him freed. Although the charges were later
re-instated on appeal, he served no more jail time for My Lai."
Wayne "He was the only one busted; he is now a small businessman
somewhere in the South" Johnson
The Devil's Advocate©
Johnson) wrote:
>Hey, suckass.
Oh, and who's ass am I sucking? Name 'em.
>This is not about some damned snapshot.
You know very well what it's about.
>This is about the people that died.
>
>Wayne "No wonder people tag you as a tom" Johnson
Give me a fucking break! If three black men had happened to been
holding that flag and someone wanted to portray them as something
other than black, you'd be yelling at the top of your voice and you
damned well *know it.* Cut the bullshit.
Gary Lloy
Alan Sutton wrote:
> I've said it before and I'll say it again, "that day a piece of history was
> made" by a landmark photograph, please let it drop it is not an ethnic thing
> at all, it's a replica of a piece of HISTORY. Let this thing go and get on
> with your lives. I only hope that the statue is made to an exact replica of
> the photograph including the firefighter with the "podgy" belly. I am a
> firefighter in Toronto, Canada, and before anyone starts giving me a hard
> time I did go to NYC a few weeks after September 11 and attended as many
> funerals for my brothers as I could on my 4 day trip.
>
> God Bless and stay Safe
>
> Alan
You know, Al, you got a lot of fucking nerve presupposing you know the
answers to our racial problems better than we do. And I'll tell you if
your ever come to states for an extended stay the first think you want
to learn is how to mind your own freakin' business. Your opinion wasn't
asked for. You got such swell ideas go over to Quebec and unravel that
nest of stupidity.
Nat Turner
Wayne Johnson
<NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:54:28 GMT, ciac...@hotmail.com (Wayne
>Johnson) wrote:
>
>>Hey, suckass.
>
>Oh, and who's ass am I sucking? Name 'em.
Whoever came up with this "who cares about diversity" line.
Some people went into those towers, and died.
A hell of a lot more died, who were already in that building.
Many of them were Black. One of them worked for my company, and he
damn sure was Black.
>>This is not about some damned snapshot.
>
>You know very well what it's about.
It's about a damned snapshot.
>>This is about the people that died.
>>
>>Wayne "No wonder people tag you as a tom" Johnson
>
>Give me a fucking break! If three black men had happened to been
>holding that flag and someone wanted to portray them as something
>other than black, you'd be yelling at the top of your voice and you
>damned well *know it.* Cut the bullshit.
What bullshit? You're telling me what I would say, which indicates
you're caught up in your hero Elder's style of claiming to speak for
people he can't stand.
Look, Chris. You need to get your shit together. The heroes in this
tragedy were the people who went into that damned building, not some
guys outside trying to redo Iwo Jima images.
Three guys put up a flag, whoop de do. I really don't give a damn
what color they were or are; what are we supposed to do, include their
names on the statue so they get credit for all time for flag-raising?
Get a grip. Monuments are symbolic.
All kinds of people died there. They looked all kinds of different
ways. And dammit, some of those cops and firefighters claimed
ancestry from everywhere on the planet.
If you can explain, even for a hot minute, how some individual
firefighter would be disrespected because HIS OWN FACIAL FEATURES
didn't appear on some damned statue, I'd like to hear it.
Wayne "You're so busy sucking racist ass, you can't see how disgusting
you appear" Johnson
The Devil's Advocate©
Johnson) wrote:
>>Oh, and who's ass am I sucking? Name 'em.
>
>Whoever came up with this "who cares about diversity" line.
Now you're being a demogogue. And a slick one at that. But these
strawmen you're tossing out now won't suffice. I'd heard about the
issue a week before it was posted here, didn't even bother bringing it
up, but now that it has made its way to SCAA, I am posting my opinion
on it.
>Some people went into those towers, and died.
>
>A hell of a lot more died, who were already in that building.
>
>Many of them were Black. One of them worked for my company, and he
>damn sure was Black.
What does this have to do with tailoring the race of those three men?
Would you want a statue depecting Wayne Johnson to be changed into a
white man because someone out there might be offended by your real
likeness?
>>>This is not about some damned snapshot.
>>
>>You know very well what it's about.
>
>It's about a damned snapshot.
That "damned snapshot" was the most profound photo taken of ground
zero. Amongst all that death and debris, it showed that America was
not defeated. That the flag was being risen from the ashes. It
would've made a perfect statue to commemorate the firefighters and
celebrate American triumph over terrorism. Yet we seem to live in an
inverted world where those that don't want to change the race of
three actual living men are termed the racists(or "Uncle Toms"
whatever the fuck that means, if they are black). I find that to be
bullshit, and if that makes me an "Uncle Tom" then call me Sambo.
>What bullshit? You're telling me what I would say, which indicates
>you're caught up in your hero Elder's style of claiming to speak for
>people he can't stand.
I notice you didn't address it. So if three black firefighters had
been shown pulling up the flag and someone wanted to change their
races to something else, you would be cool with it? Not an issue
right? I bet the farm that you won't give me a direct answer.
>Look, Chris. You need to get your shit together. The heroes in this
>tragedy were the people who went into that damned building, not some
>guys outside trying to redo Iwo Jima images.
Oh really? I'm willing to bet those 3 men were just as willing to run
into that building and save lives as their fallen comrades. I don't
know why they weren't killed, whether they simply didn't get there in
time, or whether they made it out before the collapse, but I don't
know how you can say they are not heroes when they *could've* died
just as easily as their fellows and showed up at the scene ready to do
their job.
>Three guys put up a flag, whoop de do.
You talk like it was some kid raising the flag in front of his
elementary school or some shit. They raised the flag amidst all that
death and carnage because they were making a statement that terrorism
had not defeated America.
>I really don't give a damn
>what color they were or are;
Neither do I. But obviously some did.
>what are we supposed to do, include their
>names on the statue so they get credit for all time for flag-raising?
No, just make the damned statue as it looked without trying to
color-coordinate it in order to be PC.
>Get a grip. Monuments are symbolic.
Some are, some aren't.
>All kinds of people died there. They looked all kinds of different
>ways. And dammit, some of those cops and firefighters claimed
>ancestry from everywhere on the planet.
So I take it that if those were three black guys, changing their race
would be a non-issue? Am I reading you correctly?
>If you can explain, even for a hot minute, how some individual
>firefighter would be disrespected because HIS OWN FACIAL FEATURES
>didn't appear on some damned statue, I'd like to hear it.
I've got to give it to you, this has got to be one of the most clever
ways of twisting around an issue as I've ever seen.
>Wayne "You're so busy sucking racist ass, you can't see how disgusting
>you appear" Johnson
I can only sit in awe as you and others call people racists because
they want to leave the race of those three firefighters alone. If you
*don't* want to racialize the memorial, you are the
racist...Absolutely unbelievable.
FireFighter
feelings of repression... I don't care where they stem from... IF you
weren't good enough to make roll call, if you were picked on for some
reason, if you were dropped on your DAMN HEAD... I don't care... What I
would like to point out is that... Aside from the size of a person... we all
look the same in bunker gear, with an SCBA on... I don't care if my partner
is a woman, Hispanic, Mexican, black, white, yellow, red, pink, purple, or
Mauve..... All I care is that you know what you are doing when we walk into
the big orange nightlight... I mean DAMN... can't you see that there are
actually people out there that don't care about gender or race?? Or do you
see the racism because it follows you around??
As for the NYC Memorial.. I think that it should portray the three FF's that
had the insight to help raise a nation to it's feet after we received the
blow below the belt. The three men that climbed up that pile of rubble were
White... There is no changing that, and there should be no changing that...
My Firefighting class dedicated it's class to the Heroes that were lost...
The shirts have a reprint of that exact photo on the back... That's
history.. that's the truth.. THAT should be what it depicts.
I hope that I have not offended you and if I have perhaps you would be
better off seeking professional help. I know that it's still a rough world
out there for racism, and I don't pretend to think that racism has
disappeared. But let me ask you a few side questions... When I went for
financial aid for college, take a wild guess at the help I got... ZERO...
Why?? I am an average white straight male. I don't get the advantages that
are offered for all other people of race and sexual orientation.... maybe
sound like reverse racism to you?? I have a close friend that is black....
Took the same college classes as me.. His student loan balance is about
$2,000.... The rest of his $30,000 education came from grants and
scholarships. My student loans are about $34,000.... I got JACK.. I'll be
paying for it the rest of my life... Somewhere it went from EQUAL
opportunity to White Disadvantage. hhhmmm.... maybe stick that in your
crack pipe and smoke it.
Jim Smith or John Doe ... you pick...
Full-Time Volunteer FF/Paramedic
Sr. Systems Administrator/Sr. Computer Programmer
"Gary Lloy" <gary...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3C4CE88C...@netscape.net...
Wayne Johnson
On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 05:23:31 GMT, The Devil's Advocate©
<NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:21:49 GMT, ciac...@hotmail.com (Wayne
>Johnson) wrote:
>Would you want a statue depecting Wayne Johnson to be changed into a
>white man because someone out there might be offended by your real
>likeness?
Tell us why the names of these firefighters in the photo is going to
be engraved on the statues.
Tell us why they are being honored, and the dead firefighters are not.
This is about symbolizing all the sacrificed heroes as white men; you
know it, I know it, the assholes whining about it know it.
And you're sucking in there, trying to be a critic of anyone who
points it out.
>That "damned snapshot" was the most profound photo taken of ground
>zero.
A picture of a flag being raised. Bull. Shit.
>Amongst all that death and debris, it showed that America was
>not defeated.
Anybody walking away from that mess showed we weren't defeated. And
anyone whose mind is so weak that they think living people raising a
flag means more than men in Afghanistan, actually giving their lives,
is such a brain-dead asshole they don't need statues to back up their
bullshit.
>That the flag was being risen from the ashes.
Whoop de fuckin do. The men raising weren't the first men to raise a
flag, and won't be the last. Their idea of raising the flag took no
special risk, set no amazing precedent, and damn sure didn't make them
as individuals any kind of hero.
All that "staying faithful to the photograph" does is honor the
photograph. Fuck the photograph.
Honor the dead.
>It would've made a perfect statue to commemorate the firefighters and
>celebrate American triumph over terrorism.
Like hell. The perfect statue would have been of anonymous
firefighters, ascending a stairwell.
>Yet we seem to live in an
>inverted world where those that don't want to change the race of
>three actual living men are termed the racists(or "Uncle Toms"
>whatever the fuck that means, if they are black).
What heroics did these "three actual living men" accomplish? Whose
lives did they save? What risks did they take? What did they do that
any Boy Scout on a campout never does?
Quit thumping the patriotic drum, Chris. You never even cut off your
damned dreadlocks and swore an oath to defend this Constitution; you
have a hell of a nerve to lecture me about patriotism.
>I find that to be
>bullshit, and if that makes me an "Uncle Tom" then call me Sambo.
Look, Sambo, a bunch of guys doing a photo op after the fact doesn't
strike me as the kind of thing to be commemorated for all time. If
it's the Sambo point of view that if white men raise a flag, Sambo is
supposed to applaud like a trained seal, be my damned guest.
Tell me when Sambo is going to take some real risks and enlist in the
service, please.
>>What bullshit? You're telling me what I would say, which indicates
>>you're caught up in your hero Elder's style of claiming to speak for
>>people he can't stand.
>
>I notice you didn't address it. So if three black firefighters had
>been shown pulling up the flag and someone wanted to change their
>races to something else, you would be cool with it?
What the fuck. Raising a flag when you're not under fire is no heroic
act. I don't know why this is supposed to be a controversy in the
first place. The whole thing strikes me as couch potato bullshit.
>Not an issue
>right? I bet the farm that you won't give me a direct answer.
No, Sambo, I wouldn't give a fuck. Anybody tasteless enough to make
heroes out of guys who weren't at risk, when they were standing over
the grave of three thousand human beings, is so fuckin stupid I
wouldn't even discuss it with them.
The topic alone is the realm of assholes. You don't know what a hero
is, or why someone would call them a hero. Getting your picture taken
raising a flag doesn't mean a portrait forever in bronze, Sambo.
>>Look, Chris. You need to get your shit together. The heroes in this
>>tragedy were the people who went into that damned building, not some
>>guys outside trying to redo Iwo Jima images.
>
>Oh really? I'm willing to bet those 3 men were just as willing to run
>into that building and save lives as their fallen comrades.
Yeah, well why didn't they. The ones who went into that building
included Black men, Sambo.
Deal with that, please, and don't duck the issue.
>I don't
>know why they weren't killed, whether they simply didn't get there in
>time, or whether they made it out before the collapse, but I don't
>know how you can say they are not heroes when they *could've* died
>just as easily as their fellows and showed up at the scene ready to do
>their job.
They got their picture taken.
You want them immortalized in bronze for getting their fuckin picture
taken.
Damn, Chris. Look at yourself.
>You talk like it was some kid raising the flag in front of his
>elementary school or some shit. They raised the flag amidst all that
>death and carnage because they were making a statement that terrorism
>had not defeated America.
That statement was being made all over America, including, Sambo, on a
got dam airplane over Pennsylvania by some Americans who didn't get a
MUTHA FUCKIN PHOTO OP
just a FUCKIN FIGHT TO THE DEATH!!!!
got DAM
And you want to commemorate someone who was putting up a FLAG?
shit
>I can only sit in awe as you and others call people racists because
>they want to leave the race of those three firefighters alone. If you
>*don't* want to racialize the memorial, you are the
>racist...Absolutely unbelievable.
You, Sambo, are a truly pitiful asshole.
Wayne "You are a real piece of work" Johnson
Wayne Johnson
On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 05:23:31 GMT, The Devil's Advocate©
<NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:21:49 GMT, ciac...@hotmail.com (Wayne
>Johnson) wrote:
>Would you want a statue depecting Wayne Johnson to be changed into a
>white man because someone out there might be offended by your real
>likeness?
Tell us why the names of these firefighters in the photo is going to
be engraved on the statues.
Tell us why they are being honored, and the dead firefighters are not.
This is about symbolizing all the sacrificed heroes as white men; you
know it, I know it, the assholes whining about it know it.
And you're sucking in there, trying to be a critic of anyone who
points it out.
>That "damned snapshot" was the most profound photo taken of ground
>zero.
A picture of a flag being raised. Bull. Shit.
>Amongst all that death and debris, it showed that America was
>not defeated.
Anybody walking away from that mess showed we weren't defeated. And
anyone whose mind is so weak that they think living people raising a
flag means more than men in Afghanistan, actually giving their lives,
is such a brain-dead asshole they don't need statues to back up their
bullshit.
>That the flag was being risen from the ashes.
Whoop de fuckin do. The men raising weren't the first men to raise a
flag, and won't be the last. Their idea of raising the flag took no
special risk, set no amazing precedent, and damn sure didn't make them
as individuals any kind of hero.
All that "staying faithful to the photograph" does is honor the
photograph. Fuck the photograph.
Honor the dead.
>It would've made a perfect statue to commemorate the firefighters and
>celebrate American triumph over terrorism.
Like hell. The perfect statue would have been of anonymous
firefighters, ascending a stairwell.
>Yet we seem to live in an
>inverted world where those that don't want to change the race of
>three actual living men are termed the racists(or "Uncle Toms"
>whatever the fuck that means, if they are black).
What heroics did these "three actual living men" accomplish? Whose
lives did they save? What risks did they take? What did they do that
any Boy Scout on a campout never does?
Quit thumping the patriotic drum, Chris. You never even cut off your
damned dreadlocks and swore an oath to defend this Constitution; you
have a hell of a nerve to lecture me about patriotism.
>I find that to be
>bullshit, and if that makes me an "Uncle Tom" then call me Sambo.
Look, Sambo, a bunch of guys doing a photo op after the fact doesn't
strike me as the kind of thing to be commemorated for all time. If
it's the Sambo point of view that if white men raise a flag, Sambo is
supposed to applaud like a trained seal, be my damned guest.
Tell me when Sambo is going to take some real risks and enlist in the
service, please.
>>What bullshit? You're telling me what I would say, which indicates
>>you're caught up in your hero Elder's style of claiming to speak for
>>people he can't stand.
>
>I notice you didn't address it. So if three black firefighters had
>been shown pulling up the flag and someone wanted to change their
>races to something else, you would be cool with it?
What the fuck. Raising a flag when you're not under fire is no heroic
act. I don't know why this is supposed to be a controversy in the
first place. The whole thing strikes me as couch potato bullshit.
>Not an issue
>right? I bet the farm that you won't give me a direct answer.
No, Sambo, I wouldn't give a fuck. Anybody tasteless enough to make
heroes out of guys who weren't at risk, when they were standing over
the grave of three thousand human beings, is so fuckin stupid I
wouldn't even discuss it with them.
The topic alone is the realm of assholes. You don't know what a hero
is, or why someone would call them a hero. Getting your picture taken
raising a flag doesn't mean a portrait forever in bronze, Sambo.
>>Look, Chris. You need to get your shit together. The heroes in this
>>tragedy were the people who went into that damned building, not some
>>guys outside trying to redo Iwo Jima images.
>
>Oh really? I'm willing to bet those 3 men were just as willing to run
>into that building and save lives as their fallen comrades.
Yeah, well why didn't they. The ones who went into that building
included Black men, Sambo.
Deal with that, please, and don't duck the issue.
>I don't
>know why they weren't killed, whether they simply didn't get there in
>time, or whether they made it out before the collapse, but I don't
>know how you can say they are not heroes when they *could've* died
>just as easily as their fellows and showed up at the scene ready to do
>their job.
They got their picture taken.
You want them immortalized in bronze for getting their fuckin picture
taken.
Damn, Chris. Look at yourself.
>You talk like it was some kid raising the flag in front of his
>elementary school or some shit. They raised the flag amidst all that
>death and carnage because they were making a statement that terrorism
>had not defeated America.
That statement was being made all over America, including, Sambo, on a
got dam airplane over Pennsylvania by some Americans who didn't get a
MUTHA FUCKIN PHOTO OP
just a FUCKIN FIGHT TO THE DEATH!!!!
got DAM
And you want to commemorate someone who was putting up a FLAG?
shit
>I can only sit in awe as you and others call people racists because
>they want to leave the race of those three firefighters alone. If you
>*don't* want to racialize the memorial, you are the
>racist...Absolutely unbelievable.
You, Sambo, are a truly pitiful asshole.
Wayne "You are a real piece of work" Johnson
The Devil's Advocate©
Johnson) wrote:
>Chris, it's time to take your bullshit apart.
>
>On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 05:23:31 GMT, The Devil's Advocate©
><NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:21:49 GMT, ciac...@hotmail.com (Wayne
>>Johnson) wrote:
>
>>Would you want a statue depecting Wayne Johnson to be changed into a
>>white man because someone out there might be offended by your real
>>likeness?
>
>Tell us why the names of these firefighters in the photo is going to
>be engraved on the statues.
Well, Einstein, maybe because they were the ones actually standing
there, duh.
>Tell us why they are being honored, and the dead firefighters are not.
Your logic is so full of holes it's like shooting fish in a barrel.
Wayne puts up a false dilemma where you are choosing between honoring
3 men or honoring the dead firefighters. Maybe you'd be happier if we
made a huge statue portraying 3,000 mangled bodies, eh? Shit...like
having the 3 fireman in any way disgraces or takes away from those
that died. By your fucked up logic, I guess that Iwo Jima statue takes
away from from those that died there.
>This is about symbolizing all the sacrificed heroes as white men; you
>know it, I know it, the assholes whining about it know it.
***MAYBE IT'S ABOUT SHOWING THE FUCKING FIRE FIGHTERS AS THEY
***ACTUALLY*** FUCKING APPEARED, YOU FUCKING MORON!!!!**** HOW ON
GOD'S FUCKING EARTH CAN YOU CALL THOSE PEOPLE RACIST THAT WANT THE
GODDAMNED STATUE TO LOOK LIKE THE INDIVIDUALS IT IS PORTRAYING? ARE
YOU IN THE MOTHERFUCKING TWIGHLIGHT ZONE ?!?!??!?!?!!? YOU DIPSHIT!
>>That "damned snapshot" was the most profound photo taken of ground
>>zero.
>
>A picture of a flag being raised. Bull. Shit.
Yeah Ok Wayne, we can make make a statue portraying a building blowing
up, would that satisfy you???
>>Amongst all that death and debris, it showed that America was
>>not defeated.
>
>Anybody walking away from that mess showed we weren't defeated. And
>anyone whose mind is so weak that they think living people raising a
>flag means more than men in Afghanistan, actually giving their lives,
>is such a brain-dead asshole they don't need statues to back up their
>bullshit.
Who the fuck made the claim that raising a flag is more important than
men in fighting in Afghanistan??? Who the fuck even mentioned
Afghanistan??? Damned, your reasoning is so jacked up I don't even
know how you get through a day to be honest.
>
>>That the flag was being risen from the ashes.
>
>Whoop de fuckin do. The men raising weren't the first men to raise a
>flag, and won't be the last. Their idea of raising the flag took no
>special risk, set no amazing precedent,
The photo captured a moment, I doubt they even realized they were
being photographed.
>and damn sure didn't make them
>as individuals any kind of hero.
As I said, you comprehension-impaired feeble-minded jackass, what made
them heroes is that they were at the scene, knowing they could've died
just as easily as the others. They did their damned jobs. Any
firefighter going into that line(or a cop) of work never knows if they
are returning home to their children at night. And that was especially
true at ground zero. How you don't realized this leaves me in
disbelief.
>All that "staying faithful to the photograph" does is honor the
>photograph. Fuck the photograph.
Fuck you.
>Like hell. The perfect statue would have been of anonymous
>firefighters, ascending a stairwell.
Oh, Is there some magical reason that they must be anonymous???Does it
tear you apart that badly that those happened to be three white fire
fighters?
>>Yet we seem to live in an
>>inverted world where those that don't want to change the race of
>>three actual living men are termed the racists(or "Uncle Toms"
>>whatever the fuck that means, if they are black).
>
>What heroics did these "three actual living men" accomplish? Whose
>lives did they save? What risks did they take?
Wayne....your hard-headed stupidity runs so deep as to be
awe-inspiring...
CAN YOU REALLY BE FUCKING SERIOUS, WAYNE???SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME
THAT THIS ISN'T WAYNE AND THAT HE IS BEING FORGED!!
What risks did they take??!?!?! I'll be damned, the men were down
there searching for victims, knowing that fucking structures were
still collapsing in the area, choking on a toxic mix of jet fuel,
chared bodies, abestos and ash, and you ask what risk did they take?
Wayne, do you even fucking think before you post???!?!?! What the hell
happened to you today????
> What did they do that
>any Boy Scout on a campout never does?
Tell me how many boyscouts were at ground zero amongst buildings
teetering on collapse. Tell me!
>Quit thumping the patriotic drum, Chris. You never even cut off your
>damned dreadlocks and swore an oath to defend this Constitution; you
>have a hell of a nerve to lecture me about patriotism.
Now look at him start with the ad hominems. As if my career choices
and the way I wear my fucking hair have anything whatsoever to do with
the topic of this argument. You ought to be lectured on fucking common
sense.
>
>>I find that to be
>>bullshit, and if that makes me an "Uncle Tom" then call me Sambo.
>
>Look, Sambo, a bunch of guys doing a photo op after the fact doesn't
>strike me as the kind of thing to be commemorated for all time.
Prove that it was a photo op. Hearing you talk, you'd think they put
on makeup and set up professional lighting for the damned picture.
>If
>it's the Sambo point of view that if white men raise a flag, Sambo is
>supposed to applaud like a trained seal, be my damned guest.
Damn, now he's really falling apart at the seams. Wayne, I have had
arguments with you in the past, within a few weeks things are usually
back to normal, no hard feelings. But now I've finally seen you for
the piece of shit you really are. All those that nailed you as a
stubborn egomaniac of an asshole were right. I can't believe I've
actually defended you. Fuck you, Wayne. I have the feeling you blew
this into an issue on purpose, hoping to get this response from me.
And you've got. In fact, you like to have people to have hostility
with. I notice that when it gets quiet in here, you start shooting
your mouth off about how you defeated the forgers and trolls. Knowing
damned well that it will make them come back. Up till now, I thought
it was just an innocent undersight on your part, now I have to wonder
what your motivations really are. You can fuck off, and shove your
archive of reposted self-tooting bullshit up your ass.
>>Oh really? I'm willing to bet those 3 men were just as willing to run
>>into that building and save lives as their fallen comrades.
>
>Yeah, well why didn't they.
Why don't you call the New York fire department and ask. Find out when
their engine was dispatched, find out when they got to scene, find out
if they weren't in the building out of cowardice or because they
didn't get there in time. Why don't you find out stupid ass before you
assume why they weren't in the towers. I challenge you to do so. So I
guess the hundreds of cops and firemen that didn't happen to die are
all useless just because they didn't happen to get in the building in
time to die. Go tell these men's children that their fathers didn't do
their job.
>The ones who went into that building
>included Black men, Sambo.
No shit, really? New York has black firemen???? Damn, I never knew
that! The things we learn from usenet!
And btw, I don't believe for a goddamned second that you wouldn't care
if someone changed the likeness of 3 black fireman. I think you're a
fucking liar, to stubborn to admit when you're wrong.
>>I don't
>>know why they weren't killed, whether they simply didn't get there in
>>time, or whether they made it out before the collapse, but I don't
>>know how you can say they are not heroes when they *could've* died
>>just as easily as their fellows and showed up at the scene ready to do
>>their job.
>
>They got their picture taken.
>
>You want them immortalized in bronze for getting their fuckin picture
>taken.
Yeah, simpleton, that's the reason, you figured me out.
Congratulations, give yourself a fucking medal, retard.
>Damn, Chris. Look at yourself.
>
>>You talk like it was some kid raising the flag in front of his
>>elementary school or some shit. They raised the flag amidst all that
>>death and carnage because they were making a statement that terrorism
>>had not defeated America.
>
>That statement was being made all over America, including, Sambo, on a
>got dam airplane over Pennsylvania by some Americans who didn't get a
>MUTHA FUCKIN PHOTO OP
>
>just a FUCKIN FIGHT TO THE DEATH!!!!
The statue is for the fire department, why the hell is the fire
department going to portray those that died on that 757??? If United
Airlines wants to start a memorial statue to honor those that kicked
the terrorists ass, I'd be more than happy about that.
>You, Sambo, are a truly pitiful asshole.
Eat shit, dickbreath.
The Devil's Advocate©
Johnson) wrote:
>Quit thumping the patriotic drum, Chris. You never even cut off your
>damned dreadlocks and swore an oath to defend this Constitution; you
>have a hell of a nerve to lecture me about patriotism.
Btw, why don't you pose this question to the draft dodger that you
admired and voted for *twice*. Fucking hypocrite.
Wayne Johnson
<NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> wrote:
>>If
>>it's the Sambo point of view that if white men raise a flag, Sambo is
>>supposed to applaud like a trained seal, be my damned guest.
>
>Damn, now he's really falling apart at the seams. Wayne, I have had
>arguments with you in the past, within a few weeks things are usually
>back to normal, no hard feelings. But now I've finally seen you for
>the piece of shit you really are. All those that nailed you as a
>stubborn egomaniac of an asshole were right. I can't believe I've
>actually defended you. Fuck you, Wayne.
Well, that's better.
You have to go off on Black folks who think that any memorial
shouldn't be restricted to making only whites the heroes of a national
tragedy.
That's all you're capable of.
Wayne "That's a damned shame" Johnson
Edwin Brown
The Devil's Advocate© <NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:49:40 -0500, DarkStar <dark...@toad.net>
>wrote:
>
>
>>You whine and bitch about "race-obsessed" but don't mention shit when
>>white people go ballistic over something like what I mentioned.
>
>How the hell do you know?
Where are the posts?
>
>>And on a day to honor MLK, Jr., white people are calling into a local
>>radio show complaining about the day being a day to honor him.
>
>I thought you don't listen to conservative radio.
You aren't thinking and I never said that program was conservative or
liberal.
Boxdan476
>
>
>
>
> You know, Al, you got a lot of fucking nerve presupposing you know the
> answers to our racial problems better than we do. And I'll tell you if
> your ever come to states for an extended stay the first think you want
> to learn is how to mind your own freakin' business. Your opinion wasn't
> asked for. You got such swell ideas go over to Quebec and unravel that
> nest of stupidity.
>
> Nat Turner
Look, MPD boy, you haven't got the balls to step on a cigarette let alone be
a firefighter. Take your meds, get an orderly to come change your diaper and
shut the hell up!
Lloy, Lloyd, Turner, Bard, Bardette, Queen Victoria......whatever
The Devil's Advocate©
Johnson) wrote:
>You have to go off on Black folks who think that any memorial
>shouldn't be restricted to making only whites the heroes of a national
>tragedy.
I don't know one damned person, black or white that sees that photo
and thinks, "look, three white men!" Everybody I've talked to sees
them as firefighters. You are so race-obsessed that when you see them,
all you see are white men, not three firefighters that just happened
to be photographed doing their job.
Brad Bilger
> > Gary,
> > I would say not one word.... As a Fire Fighter, I would be Proud!.. If
the
> > picture was of three Black Fire fighters raising the flag, then so
should
> > the statue be of three Black Fire Fighters.. I would point to it with
> > Pride and respect and give the honor that they were due. If the picture
was
> > of three Female Fire Fighters, I would be just as proud and as honored.
>
>
> What? do you guys make up this stuff as you go? I assure you your rule
> about how to do art has no validity outside Duffy's bar over in
Bensonhurst.
>
Gary, I replied to you as one intellegent person to another and you return
insults. You have no idea who or what I am. I am not from New York, nor do
I frequent bars. I have no idea where Bensonhurst is and have never been to
Duffy's bar.
When I tell you that I would look at this statue with Pride and Honor, I
mean it. Ever been to the Fallen firefighter memorial at the National Fire
Academy in Maryland? Nowhere on there does it say anything about white,
black, hispanic or any other race.
When I went to DC, and saw the Memorial To the Vietnam Veterans, I was moved
to tears.. Not because there was a black man in their midst, but because of
what they DID for this country and for what they gave. It was the
Symbolism. Was that memorial based on a real photographed event? Or did it
come from the creative mind of the artist?
>
<snip>
>
> This is choice. A fireman telling an artist how to do his job. Suppose
> we let artists tell you how to fight a fire?
>
Why not? Uninformed and uneducated people have been doing that to the fire
service for years. People call up and complain because we used water to put
out their fire in their house. I'm sorry, but no one has come up with
anything more effective yet. YOU are the one that came to this forum with
this. If you didn't want input, why ask then?
>
>
> But it's not your job to make these decisions. You're not qualified and
> the people who are decided on a multi-ethnic statue. These people are
> more informed, better educated, and --most importantly -- more
> sophisticated then you, that's why they're not pissing on fires anymore.
>
Again, you have no idea who or what I am.
>
> >
> > If "Artistic Expression" is the question, then let the artist design his
own
> > memorial.
>
>
> What you actually mean is let him design one without a black man in it
> because if he does you'll never accept it.
>
Did I say anything that might have been misinterperted as that? Did I say
anything about being offended if the artist drew from his own creativity and
included a black in the memorial? I don't think so. I think that a fitting
memorial SHOULD include a black. And a Hispanic. And a female. And a
representation of EVERYONE that was there. Not of Three White Firefighters
that raised the flag, but of a blending of EVERYONE That was there working,
both during the attack and after the attack.
I feel that if the artist simply came out with a statue based on a
photograph, then the artist isn't using his creativity. I simply feel that
if a statue is commissioned to represent a REAL event, then the statue
should be as factual as possible. If the statue/memorial is to express a
sentiment or emotion, then the artist should have a free hand into designing
it as he feels it should be. Including the race of the people depicted on
it.
>
> >
> > As a white fire fighter that works daily side by side with Black Fire
> > fighters, White Fire Fighters, Female Fire Fighters and Latino Fire
> > fighters, I don't care what color/sex they are, as long as the can do
the
> > job. In the Smoke and the flames, they are all the same..
>
>
>
> Cool. You can talk the talk, too bad you don't walk the walk.
Again, you have no idea about who or what I am. I talk it and walk it every
day.
Roger Brown
Johnson) wrote:
>It's still coming out. It was John Kerry who got outed by a fellow
>SEAL team member about a village he and his team attacked, where
>people were massacred after a psy-ops/intel mission went bad.
Bob Kerrey, of Nebraska, not John Kerry of Massachusetts.
often confused.
- Roger
Alan Sutton
thought this was a newsgroup where people could actually say something and
be criticized in an orderly manner, for your further information I moved
from England to Canada some 10 years ago and unfortunately there is a big
race issue over there as well something that will never change, sadly, but
there is nothing I can do about that either. I was not in any way shape or
form putting any one down, I was just voicing my own opinion on what I
thought. If I upset you in any way please accept my apologies.
Alan
"Boxdan476" <boxd...@intrex.net> wrote in message
news:u4qvg7j...@corp.supernews.com...
Wayne Johnson
<NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:55:23 GMT, ciac...@hotmail.com (Wayne
>Johnson) wrote:
>
>>You have to go off on Black folks who think that any memorial
>>shouldn't be restricted to making only whites the heroes of a national
>>tragedy.
>
>I don't know one damned person, black or white that sees that photo
>and thinks, "look, three white men!"
Good. That means they won't give a damn who shows up on the statues.
>Everybody I've talked to sees
>them as firefighters. You are so race-obsessed that when you see them,
>all you see are white men, not three firefighters that just happened
>to be photographed doing their job.
No; I actually don't give a damn about which individuals raised the
flag. You do.
Tell me why those three individuals are so damned important.
Wayne "Name them, and explain why they're so extra special over every
other firefighter, including the ones who died" Johnson
Wayne Johnson
I stand corrected, dammit.
Wayne "Oh well" Johnson
BlackConservative
this was true.
But the convoluted Leftist craptrap, the politically correct nonsense and the
utter ignorance assures me that it is Wayne.
On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 05:46:05 GMT,
Wayne Johnson does not know what he's talking about:
>Chris, it's time to take your bullshit apart.
The EXPERT (in bullshit) now speaks !!!
BARK, Wayne... bark.
That's a good puppy.
>On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 05:23:31 GMT, The Devil's Advocate©
><NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:21:49 GMT, ciac...@hotmail.com (Wayne
>>Johnson) wrote:
>
>>Would you want a statue depecting Wayne Johnson to be changed into a
>>white man because someone out there might be offended by your real
>>likeness?
>
>Tell us why the names of these firefighters in the photo is going to
>be engraved on the statues.
Because these are the names of the men in the photo.
Could that be?
<sigh>
>Tell us why they are being honored, and the dead firefighters are not.
As per usual... Wayne Johnson is wrong again. There IS a statue honoring the
dead firefighters. This statue has been mounted on a flatbed truck and displayed
all around New York City. I saw it myself in Times Square.
>This is about symbolizing all the sacrificed heroes as white men; you
>know it, I know it, the assholes whining about it know it.
Not true. But it's hopeless trying to reason with you.
>And you're sucking in there, trying to be a critic of anyone who
>points it out.
Criticism of someone who has most of his facts wrong (as per usual) has nothing
to do with "symbolizing all the sacrificed heroes as white men".
>>That "damned snapshot" was the most profound photo taken of ground
>>zero.
>
>A picture of a flag being raised. Bull. Shit.
Like the old adage says... "You had to have been there." You have no idea of the
deep feelings that overwhelmed New York City hours and days after the attack,
Wayne. As usual, you simply projecting your own Leftist views... thousands of
miles away. It's easy to do this via the Internet.
On this, you are the undisputed champ.
>>Amongst all that death and debris, it showed that America was
>>not defeated.
>
>Anybody walking away from that mess showed we weren't defeated. And
>anyone whose mind is so weak that they think living people raising a
>flag means more than men in Afghanistan, actually giving their lives,
>is such a brain-dead asshole they don't need statues to back up their
>bullshit.
Therefore, to stay with your tortured "logic"... the photo and consequent statue
of the World War 2 heroes raising the flag at Iwo Jima is the same.
You've dug yourself quite an illogical hole, Wayne. Hope you're not expecting
company.
>>That the flag was being risen from the ashes.
>
>Whoop de fuckin do. The men raising weren't the first men to raise a
>flag, and won't be the last. Their idea of raising the flag took no
>special risk, set no amazing precedent, and damn sure didn't make them
>as individuals any kind of hero.
Again... given the time frame that this heroic display took place, it symbolized
the hundreds of New York firefighters (not to mention police) who rushed into a
dangerous situation and lost their lives.
Would it have been nice if there was a Black firefighter involved in this event?
Sure.
But it didn't happen that way. And to mock reality with some Leftist (and yes,
it's overwhelmingly Leftists who take the position that you have, Wayne)
revisionist (read: lie) politically correct (read: God-awful wrong) twisting of
the truth is really sad.
Not to mention - idiotic.
>All that "staying faithful to the photograph" does is honor the
>photograph. Fuck the photograph.
>
>Honor the dead.
The dead has been honored. Buy a ticket, fly to New York and visit Ground Zero
b4 shooting your mouth off, Wayne.
And get your head out of THE NATION and/or MOTHER JONES... why doncha?
>>It would've made a perfect statue to commemorate the firefighters and
>>celebrate American triumph over terrorism.
>
>Like hell. The perfect statue would have been of anonymous
>firefighters, ascending a stairwell.
But the photo of the firefighters raising the flag is the perfect caption. Your
suggestion belongs in another discussion, Mr. Johnson.
BTW... it's a good suggestion too.
>>Yet we seem to live in an
>>inverted world where those that don't want to change the race of
>>three actual living men are termed the racists(or "Uncle Toms"
>>whatever the fuck that means, if they are black).
>
>What heroics did these "three actual living men" accomplish? Whose
>lives did they save? What risks did they take? What did they do that
>any Boy Scout on a campout never does?
Jeez... the utter ignorance displayed by that statement defies logic. Just for
starters... were the two Twin Towers the only buildings that were damaged? Were
they the only buildings that fell? And if they weren't, did the other buildings
that fell fall in one comfortable time period?
<sigh>
To compare Ground Zero (and its environs) to a Boy Scout campout nails the door
shut regarding how shallow and idiotic you are Wayne.
<blah, blah, blah (Leftist ignorance) mercifully snipped>
From all accounts, the photo wasn't doctored. The photo was contrived. No one is
arguing the contrary.
The only "doctoring" and the only folks who are now "contriving" are the Leftist
fuzz-brains who cannot fathom the courage or the intelligence to accept reality.
B "Something tells me that I just pegged your crowd, Wayne" C
Wayne Johnson
<BlackCon...@excite.com> wrote:
>The crossed-posted newsgroups hints that this isn't really Wayne... I wish that
>this was true.
Read the original thread. I lost my temper when I found a Black
person taking on racist horseshit in the name of sucking up to the
right wing.
>But the convoluted Leftist craptrap, the politically correct nonsense and the
>utter ignorance assures me that it is Wayne.
What leftist whatever? What politically correct whatever?
I just wrote a letter to the daughter and mother of a Black man who
died in the second tower, Mr. Anonymous. He worked for my company.
He died standing up, talking to my computer support team until
communications cut off. He couldn't reach his family.
We pinged the server on the 95th floor for another 15 minutes after we
lost contact. He indicated that he was going to try to get some of my
company's clients down the stairs, instead of going up for helicopter
pullout.
He wouldn't leave those people to their fates. He hung on. We saw
the building fall.
Show me the heroic and inspiring photograph of that man, that will
commemorate his memory.
Wayne "Right after you kiss my Black ass" Johnson
The Devil's Advocate©
<BlackCon...@excite.com> wrote:
>But it didn't happen that way. And to mock reality with some Leftist (and yes,
>it's overwhelmingly Leftists who take the position that you have, Wayne)
>revisionist (read: lie) politically correct (read: God-awful wrong) twisting of
>the truth is really sad.
It's an example of covering up reality to promote a socio-political
agenda. It's like the Jackson Pollock stamp where they edited his
trademark cigarette out of his mouth. It didn't matter that he was
always seen in that photo with the cigarette, but someone had an
anti-smoking agenda and felt the need to alter reality.
The Devil's Advocate©
Johnson) wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:20:48 -0500, BlackConservative
><BlackCon...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>The crossed-posted newsgroups hints that this isn't really Wayne... I wish that
>>this was true.
>
>Read the original thread. I lost my temper when I found a Black
>person taking on racist horseshit in the name of sucking up to the
>right wing.
It is now "racist" to NOT alter a statue of three men to portray them
as something they weren't. My oh my... In reality, it is the racist
mind that thinks a photo of three fireman that happened by chance to
be standing in the vicininty together and be white can't represent
their fellow firefighters. If someone were to say the reverse, that
three black firefighters can represent no one but blacks, that would
undoubtedly be decried as racist, yet the reverse gets a pass. Why
don't we take this thinking to it's logical conclusion. There are
women in the FDNY, why should also make one of them a woman. Since
there were only three fire-fighters pictured, yet more than three
races, someone's race is going to be left out, so I guess someone will
get offended anyway. Maybe the problem is that some people get
offended too damned easily in the first place.
Wayne Johnson
<NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 05:25:01 GMT, ciac...@hotmail.com (Wayne
>Johnson) wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:20:48 -0500, BlackConservative
>><BlackCon...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>>The crossed-posted newsgroups hints that this isn't really Wayne... I wish that
>>>this was true.
>>
>>Read the original thread. I lost my temper when I found a Black
>>person taking on racist horseshit in the name of sucking up to the
>>right wing.
>
>It is now "racist" to NOT alter a statue of three men to portray them
>as something they weren't.
One more time.
Tell us what is so heroic about these three specific individuals that
we need to honor them, specifically, for all time with bronze statues.
Wayne "You still haven't done it, because you can't" Johnson
BlackConservative
Good example. Somehow the Waynes of this world (and there are a lot of them)
cannot (or will not) wrap their minds (such as they are) around the
brand-spanking new concept of REALITY.
Wayne related a touching story about one man's bravery in another post. Lemme
see if I can reply to that one
B "Be Right Back" C
BlackConservative
Wayne Johnson wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 06:33:56 GMT, The Devil's Advocate©
><NOJUNKsh...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 05:25:01 GMT, ciac...@hotmail.com (Wayne
>>Johnson) wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:20:48 -0500, BlackConservative
>>><BlackCon...@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>The crossed-posted newsgroups hints that this isn't really Wayne... I wish that
>>>>this was true.
>>>
>>>Read the original thread. I lost my temper when I found a Black
>>>person taking on racist horseshit in the name of sucking up to the
>>>right wing.
Jeez... lemme see if I got this straight:
The photo of the three firefighters raising the flag is "racist horseshit"?
The photo of the three firefighters raising the flag is "right-wing"?
Confusion... is the murky mind of Wayne.
>>It is now "racist" to NOT alter a statue of three men to portray them
>>as something they weren't.
>
>One more time.
>
>Tell us what is so heroic about these three specific individuals that
>we need to honor them, specifically, for all time with bronze statues.
>
>Wayne "You still haven't done it, because you can't" Johnson
Now... lemme see if I can "do it":
The area which is now called GROUND ZERO (and its environs) was a dangerous
place to be -- during the attack, immediately after the attack and at least a
week (if not more) after the attack. Anyone venturing into this "Hell On Earth"
in order to save whatever lives that weren't already snuffed out during these
times was heroic. The ground was unstable. There were still buildings which were
falling or about to fall -- crushing anyone in its path.
As I said in a previous post, THERE IS a memorial statue honoring ALL of the
firefighters who died trying to save others during the WTC terrorist attack.
Also, please visit (if you haven't already) the official FDNY Web site...
<http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/fdny/html/home2.html>
... and then click on MEMORIAL/FIREFIGHTERS. On the very first page, you will
see all sorts of brave folks who gave their lives in the line of duty... Black,
White, Brown.
Getting back to my point... the photo in question touched a nerve in this city
and this country (not to mention all decent folks worldwide). I see nothing at
all wrong with proposing that a statue be created from that photo. I'm talking
about the ACTUAL PHOTO, not some made-up, politically correct replica.
If the statue in question WAS THE ONLY memorial being contemplated, I might tend
to agree with Wayne. This is NOT THE CASE.
B "I could type more, but some folks already have their minds made up" C
Wayne Johnson
<BlackCon...@excite.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:51:09 GMT,
>Wayne Johnson wrote:
>>Read the original thread. I lost my temper when I found a Black
>>person taking on racist horseshit in the name of sucking up to the
>>right wing.
>
>Jeez... lemme see if I got this straight:
I'm not optimistic about this....
>The photo of the three firefighters raising the flag is "racist horseshit"?
Nope.
>The photo of the three firefighters raising the flag is "right-wing"?
Nope again.
>Confusion... is the murky mind of Wayne.
You're deeply confused, Mr. Anonymous.
>>Tell us what is so heroic about these three specific individuals that
>>we need to honor them, specifically, for all time with bronze statues.
>>
>>Wayne "You still haven't done it, because you can't" Johnson
>
>Now... lemme see if I can "do it":
>
>The area which is now called GROUND ZERO (and its environs) was a dangerous
>place to be -- during the attack, immediately after the attack and at least a
>week (if not more) after the attack. Anyone venturing into this "Hell On Earth"
>in order to save whatever lives that weren't already snuffed out during these
>times was heroic. The ground was unstable. There were still buildings which were
>falling or about to fall -- crushing anyone in its path.
Yep.
>As I said in a previous post, THERE IS a memorial statue honoring ALL of the
>firefighters who died trying to save others during the WTC terrorist attack.
Where.
>Also, please visit (if you haven't already) the official FDNY Web site...
><http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/fdny/html/home2.html>
>... and then click on MEMORIAL/FIREFIGHTERS. On the very first page, you will
>see all sorts of brave folks who gave their lives in the line of duty... Black,
>White, Brown.
Where is the statue of that picture.
>Getting back to my point... the photo in question touched a nerve in this city
>and this country (not to mention all decent folks worldwide). I see nothing at
>all wrong with proposing that a statue be created from that photo. I'm talking
>about the ACTUAL PHOTO, not some made-up, politically correct replica.
Then blow up the photo, stick it on a billboard, and move on.
>If the statue in question WAS THE ONLY memorial being contemplated, I might tend
>to agree with Wayne. This is NOT THE CASE.
The photo is not the defining moment of this tragedy; worse, the
racial caterwauling all seems to be coming from the lunatic right,
complete with what-if bullshit about the same firefighters being
Black, or whatever.
This "nerve" touched by the photograph seems to be awfully raw, where
whites are concerned. One more time:
Tell me, or anyone interested, why these three particular firefighters
are to be immortalized for personal heroics above all other
firefighters - including those who died, and those who didn't have
room around the flagpole to have their portraits done.
>B "I could type more, but some folks already have their minds made up" C
You're not typing any more, because the question stumps you. You keep
evading the issue.
One last time: What are the names of these firefighters, and why are
they to be immortalized?
Wayne "Let's get this cleared up" Johnson
Wayne Johnson
<BlackCon...@excite.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 05:34:17 GMT,
>The Devil's AdvocateŠ wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:20:48 -0500, BlackConservative
>><BlackCon...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>>But it didn't happen that way. And to mock reality with some Leftist (and yes,
>>>it's overwhelmingly Leftists who take the position that you have, Wayne)
>>>revisionist (read: lie) politically correct (read: God-awful wrong) twisting of
>>>the truth is really sad.
>>
>>It's an example of covering up reality to promote a socio-political
>>agenda. It's like the Jackson Pollock stamp where they edited his
>>trademark cigarette out of his mouth. It didn't matter that he was
>>always seen in that photo with the cigarette, but someone had an
>>anti-smoking agenda and felt the need to alter reality.
>
>Good example.
A Pollock stamp.
At least you have a name.
Name the firefighters.
>Somehow the Waynes of this world (and there are a lot of them)
>cannot (or will not) wrap their minds (such as they are) around the
>brand-spanking new concept of REALITY.
Reality is, you can't name the firefighters, and REALITY is, you can't
name the firefighters who died in that building, either.
>Wayne related a touching story about one man's bravery in another post. Lemme
>see if I can reply to that one
>
>B "Be Right Back" C
Don't rush.
Wayne "We talked to this man...who did you talk to" Johnson
Ken
Danny McWilliams Ladder Co. 157
George Johnson, 36, also of Ladder 157
Billy Eisengrein, 37, of Rescue 2,
"Wayne Johnson" <ciac...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c50e2dd...@nntp.we.mediaone.net...
The Devil's Advocate©
wrote:
>Billy Eisengrein, 37, of Rescue 2,
A Jew? Well, there's some diversity right?
James Garvin
> You mean like when the parents of a local school system went nuts
> because a play had a Black person playing Jesus?
Support your claim.
> It was whites being offended not Blacks. But I guess that's a point
> that skipped your feeble brain.
I think you are the one that missed the point nugget brain.
> How do you know that the events happened the way the miltary people
> said it happened?
??????? I suppose you too where in a cave as CNN filmed most of it. As
far as trusting what the military says, I'd say it was pretty accurate
based on the given facts from multiple sources.
> The Mai Lai (spelling?) Massacre is still "in dispute."
What!!?? Are you insane? Produce some evidence of this. Mai Li
happened and was horrible...and as far as I know everone admits it.
--
James Garvin
bo...@nmt.edu
-----BEGIN BOOT'S GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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w---
O- M-- V-- PS+ PE++ Y++ PGP++ t+(++) 5-- X++ R++>$ tv b+ DI+++ D++
G e+>+++ h--- r+++ y+++ A09 H+++>* P+++
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James Garvin
>
> > Having said that, let me say to you, that if three black firefighters had
> > raised the flag over the WTC sight and had their picture taken, I would
> > FULLY 100% support a memorial statue with their likenesses on it. Just as
> > if a female firefighter had been in on the act, I would fully support her
> > likeness being on the statue.
>
> Bullshit, next point.
A mind reader...wow...I bet you can't tell me what I'm thinking now.
> The issue has nothing to do with "rewriting history", that's just the
> self-serving rhetoric you've adopted and rather poorly thought-out
> self-serving rhetoric at that.
How is rewritting history your way not self serving?
> Statues *don't* depict history therefore they can't rewrite it. Moreover,
> three guys raising a flag is not an historic event, at least in this context.
This statement is absolutuly amazing! No historical context.
> The historic event is the death of so many firemen.
The historical context is the photo of 3 men raising a flag...Perhaps
you missed that.
> People of color around the globe aren't fooled by that baloney.
A global mind reader. So tell me...what are all us whities thinking
now?
> Pretty amazing when you think of it. A few weeks ago there were no
> greater heroes in the country; now you guys are bums again.
And you are hitting the crack pipe a little hard...you might want to cut
back.
James Garvin
>
> One more time.
>
> Tell us what is so heroic about these three specific individuals that
> we need to honor them, specifically, for all time with bronze statues.
Wayne you need to open your mind and read what people post. It isn't
honoring the 3 specific individuals that is that point. The statue
represents a very moving photo of a horrible day in history.
BlackConservative
Wayne Johnson wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:59:34 -0500, BlackConservative
><BlackCon...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:51:09 GMT,
>>Wayne Johnson wrote:
>
>>>Read the original thread. I lost my temper when I found a Black
>>>person taking on racist horseshit in the name of sucking up to the
>>>right wing.
>>
>>Jeez... lemme see if I got this straight:
>
>I'm not optimistic about this....
I'm dealing with you and your murky thinking (such as it is). So, I can
understand your doubts -- hell, you have the same doubts about yourself.
>>The photo of the three firefighters raising the flag is "racist horseshit"?
>
>Nope.
>
>>The photo of the three firefighters raising the flag is "right-wing"?
>
>Nope again.
Then, please, tell me what is the "racist horseshit" & "right-wing".
>>Confusion... is the murky mind of Wayne.
>
>You're deeply confused, Mr. Anonymous.
Nope... but... oh nevermind.
>>>Tell us what is so heroic about these three specific individuals that
>>>we need to honor them, specifically, for all time with bronze statues.
>>>
>>>Wayne "You still haven't done it, because you can't" Johnson
>>
>>Now... lemme see if I can "do it":
>>
>>The area which is now called GROUND ZERO (and its environs) was a dangerous
>>place to be -- during the attack, immediately after the attack and at least a
>>week (if not more) after the attack. Anyone venturing into this "Hell On Earth"
>>in order to save whatever lives that weren't already snuffed out during these
>>times was heroic. The ground was unstable. There were still buildings which were
>>falling or about to fall -- crushing anyone in its path.
>
>Yep.
You just said "Yep". So, even tho you're too confused to realize it, you've also
agreed that the three firefighters ARE HEROES.
There goes THAT argument.
Next !!!
>>As I said in a previous post, THERE IS a memorial statue honoring ALL of the
>>firefighters who died trying to save others during the WTC terrorist attack.
>
>Where.
As I said b4, this statue is mounted on a flatbed truck and is being displayed
all over NYC.
>>Also, please visit (if you haven't already) the official FDNY Web site...
>><http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/fdny/html/home2.html>
>>... and then click on MEMORIAL/FIREFIGHTERS. On the very first page, you will
>>see all sorts of brave folks who gave their lives in the line of duty... Black,
>>White, Brown.
>
>Where is the statue of that picture.
Doesn't exist... yet. You can send a donation to the FDNY fund and once your
check is cashed -- bitch and moan (like you always do). There will be MANY
memorials about the attack. If you get in early, you can attempt to get your
way.
>>Getting back to my point... the photo in question touched a nerve in this city
>>and this country (not to mention all decent folks worldwide). I see nothing at
>>all wrong with proposing that a statue be created from that photo. I'm talking
>>about the ACTUAL PHOTO, not some made-up, politically correct replica.
>
>Then blow up the photo, stick it on a billboard, and move on.
I've moved on; in fact I was never there. Indeed, it was YOUR CROWD that began
this nonsense to start with. You know... the politically correct, Leftist
fuzz-brains. The Usual Suspects, if you will.
>>If the statue in question WAS THE ONLY memorial being contemplated, I might tend
>>to agree with Wayne. This is NOT THE CASE.
>
>The photo is not the defining moment of this tragedy; worse, the
>racial caterwauling all seems to be coming from the lunatic right,
>complete with what-if bullshit about the same firefighters being
>Black, or whatever.
WHAT?
It's the Leftists who started this nonsense.
>This "nerve" touched by the photograph seems to be awfully raw, where
>whites are concerned. One more time:
>
>Tell me, or anyone interested, why these three particular firefighters
>are to be immortalized for personal heroics above all other
>firefighters - including those who died, and those who didn't have
>room around the flagpole to have their portraits done.
>
>>B "I could type more, but some folks already have their minds made up" C
>
>You're not typing any more, because the question stumps you. You keep
>evading the issue.
>
>One last time: What are the names of these firefighters,
I'm not sure why this is relevant, but... the names of the firefighters are Dan
McWilliams, George Johnson and Billy Eisengrein.
Hope this helps you out of your confusion.
>and why are they to be immortalized?
Because these were the three firefighters who raised the flag. Because they were
there. Point blank and period.
B "And you weren't" C