Love is not Love that alters when it alteration finds,
Nor bends to the remover to remove.
Oh, no; it is the ever fix'ed mark,
That looks on tempest and is never shaken.
Love is the star for every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although it's height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within it's bending cycle's compass comes.
Love alters not, through Time's brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out, even unto the edge of doom.
Now if this be error, and upon me proved,
Then I have not written, and no man has ever loved."
Val Dear lady....that is so far over my head That it is useless for me
to comment...other than to say....what do them words mean??
Eddie
Eddie, my Gumba, if you'd eaten yer polenta like yer Mama told you all them
long years ago you'd be tall enough now to see over any mere words; but
being as you was a maverick from the get-go, and the only one who could tell
you fer shure is four hundred years in his grave..why I reckon they mean
whatever you take them to mean.
Val
Shakespeare was always difficult to understand, but I believe this one
is easy.
:-)
JD
john
"Val Adams" <va_a...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:KCE0f.547$ht7...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
William Shakespeare
William Shakespeare..116th Sonnet.
I think so, too, John..
Every time somebody I love gets up my nose,I re-read this to mend...
Sonnet 116, the bard was good-:)
--
Kelly
--
Kelly
Kelly I love 55
Not marble, nor the gilded monuments
Of princes, shall outlive this powerful rhyme;
But you shall shine more bright in these contents
Than unswept stone besmear'd with sluttish time.
When wasteful war shall statues overturn,
And broils root out the work of masonry,
Nor Mars his sword nor war's quick fire shall burn
The living record of your memory.
'Gainst death and all-oblivious enmity
Shall you pace forth; your praise shall still find room
Even in the eyes of all posterity
That wear this world out to the ending doom.
So, till the judgment that yourself arise,
You live in this, and dwell in lover's eyes.
Sinlair
>
>
Ignorance
Strange to know nothing, never to be sure
Of what is true or right or real,
But forced to qualify, or so I feel,
Or Well, it does seem so:
Someone must know.
Strange to be ignorant of the way things work:
Their skill at finding what they need,
Their sense of shape, and punctual spread of seed,
And willingness to change:
Yes it is strange,
Even to wear knowledge - for our flesh
Surrounds us with its own decisions -
And yet spend all our life on imprecisions,
That when we start to die
Have no idea why.
Philip Larkin...
Bobbie....
Indeed. Thanks, had not seen this before.
Bobbie..
Yes. write a little, read a lot, especially when life goes a bit wonky and I
get to wandering in my own hinterlands. soothes, somehow; maybe the pleasure
of hearing old friends? ..I dont normally -honest!- read out loud, but
poetry, somehow..I 'hear' ... Lately have been enoying finding them online;
chuckle; tho I still prefer a book to a laptop in bed! ;)
Bobbie...
Bobbie.
I think if you are not tied to one or a few genres it is unlikely to become
stale.. the merest hint, you can duck over to the music hall..which is after
all only a grace-note removed.. <g>
Thanks Bobbie
well..rhetorical laptop, anyway..luckily I dont live in Seattle..but when
Mark is at work, and the cat is doing her apostrophe number.. it's read or
watch TV, and I ask you, which would YOU choose???
Oh, yes, books are sensuous all on their own, no argument. The thing about
online, I find writers I would never have heard of, like your Mr.
Larkin..and also a great improvement, when I want to share something, over
the old way of find the book, find the poem, (specially if I can only
remember a line) scan and copy..or else...worse(or better?), type it from
memory.
Edgar Lee Masters could not be called cheerful either, mostly; but then I am
not very cheery myself here lately. Not UN-cheery, just..other. Something
working it's way up from the depths, I reckon.. or maybe just the
once-familiar 'sound of going in the treetops' that always used to mark the
turning year. Long-settled life has helped me to forget; until, suddenly, I
am startled by a sense of lift tugging along the shoulder-blade, and find
myself scanning horizons...odd state of mind altogether...
That's a beautiful one for sure, but they're all so special-:)
--
Kelly
That one was new to me, thanks Bobbie.
Wasn't he accused of being a nazi sympathizer?
--
Kelly
Oh dear, I must have got it wrong then. I thought his poetry was rather
negative???
--
Kelly
His father was not him. His father kept a statuette of Hitler on the
drawing-room mantelpiece. Press a button and its right arm shot up in a Nazi
salute.
Sinclair
>
He was part of the Angry young Man movement of the '50
Sinclair
>
>
OK. I just thought that I had something lurking in my mind that his poetry
was negative and that he was a racist. Did his father write poetry too?
--
Kelly
OK! It must have been when I read about Osborne & co that I read about him
then.
--
Kelly
Did I not say he was not the most cheerful of poets....
In December of 1984 he was offered the chance to succeed Sir John
Betjeman as Poet Laureate but declined, being unwilling to accept the
high public profile and associated media attention of the position.
I don't think any poetry is negative. you like it or you don't, it's a
bit like paintings..
Bobbie....
Bobbie...
>>
>> His father was not him. His father kept a statuette of Hitler on the
>> drawing-room mantelpiece. Press a button and its right arm shot up in
>> a Nazi salute.
>>
>> Sinclair
>
> OK. I just thought that I had something lurking in my mind that his poetry
> was negative and that he was a racist. Did his father write poetry too?
>
> --
> Kelly
No
>
>
Well, that can be discussed, I guess. I mean that poems may be negative. I
can't say I ever was a fan of his poems, but it's all so long ago.
--
Kelly
I never liked Edward-;)
--
Kelly
Bobbie...
Bobbie...
My new dog is named Ed....
Ed's a good boy....
Are you referring to the English Lowry or the American one?
I know the American one, very religious. "Shall we gather by the river" and
"my sins are washed away in the blood of Jesus", I guess you don't mean him,
but Malcolm Lowry? I don't know anything about the latter-:(
--
Kelly
Camilla is a different case. I think they deserved to be happy after all
those years.
--
Kelly
LOL
I'm sure he is.
Does he like divorced women?
--
Kelly
http://www.clark-art.co.uk/pages/thumbnails/80/94.html
Bobbie...
Ed loves everyone who pets him. He's a lot like me....
LOL
Come over here for a pet-;)
--
Kelly
OK
Well, once again I have to admit my ignorance-:(
But I checked your site and yes, there's something interesting there. I also
discovered that one of his unknown paintings has been sold for £ 500 000!!!
Must be quite famous
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/4292764.stm
--
Kelly
From "The Sonnets And Ballate of Guido Cavalcanti"
Sonnet XXIX
Dante, asigh, that's the heart's messenger
Assailed me suddenly, as I lay sleeping;
Aroused, I fell straightway into fer's keeping,
For Love came with that sigh as curator.
And I turned straight and saw the servitor
Of Mona Lagia, who came there a-crying,
"Ah pity! Aid me!" and at this his sighing
I took from pity this much power and more;
That I found Love a-filing javelins
And asked him of both torment and solution,
And in this fasion came that Lord's replies:
"Say to that servant that his service wins.
He holds the Lady to his pleasure won.
If he'd believe it, let him watch her eyes." Ezra Pound
"Kelly" <ke...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:di0uru$cte$1...@sadr.dfn.de...
Do you do ear skritches?
--
Kelly
Scratch, scratch, scratch -;)
--
Kelly
http://www.manchester2002-uk.com/lowry.html
I love his paintings......
Bobbie
I'm yours. Who do you want killed?
LOL
I'll have to figure that out and how many... one for three scratches or two?
--
Kelly
When I checked on him, I actually came across this page. I also found
another one with several other paintings. I wouldn't mind having one of
those on my wall-:)
--
Kelly
I'm easy, if the truth be known. I'm already in your debt for life....
I'll send you a list very soon then <g>
--
Kelly
Advise ways & means for each if it matters to you. I aim to please....
Et Fain Sallir les Loups des Boys
I cling to the spar,
Washed with the cold salt ice
I cling to the spar---
Insidious modern waves, civilization, civilized hidden snarles.
Cowardly editors threaten: "If I dare."
Say this or that, or speak my open mind,
Say that I hate my hates,
Say that I love my friends,
Say I believe in Lewis, spit out later Rodin,
Say that Epstien can carve in stone'
That Brzeska can use the chisel,
Or Wadsworth paint;
Then they will have my guts;
They will cut down my wage, force me to sing their cant
Uphod the press, and be before all a model of literary
decorum.
Merde!
Cowardly editors threaten,
Friends fall off the pinch, the loveliest die.
That is the path of my life, this is my forrest. Ezra Pound 1915,
Chronology 1949
Award of the Bollingen Prize to Pound to publicly annonced in late February,
with this statement: "Pound's works represents the highest achievement of
American poetry in the year for which the award is made, , , ,To permit
other considerations than that of poetic acheivement to sway the decision
would destroy the significance of the award and would in principle deny the
significance of the award and would in principle deny the validity of that
objective perception on which any civilized society must rest." Considerable
public outcry follows. The New York Times headline reads "Pound's In Mental
Clinic Wins Prize for Poetry Pennend in Treason Cell" And Congress prevents
the Library of Congress from giving any father awards or prizes. Pound
prepares a statement for the Press ("No comment from the Bug House") but
decides not to release it. Aided by Huntington Cairns and Veronica Sun, a
Chinese student at the Catholic Universidy of Washington, he undertakes a
full-scale translation of the Confucian Odes, noting their phonetic features
in a number of "Sound Notebooks."
"Kelly" <ke...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:di1863$hcd$1...@sadr.dfn.de...
I'm afraid most of his do nothing for me although there are a few which
are interesting, such as the 'pairs' he produced. I hope they were
his, anyway. ;-)
--
Gordon Harris
Philistine! how can you not love Matchstick men,,,,,,,it is so naive.....
Bobbie;-)
>> M**** and I took her son and daughter-in-law to the Quays when they
>>were over from Northern Ireland, and did the Imperial War Museum and
>>the Lowry galleries. As we walked around I was somewhat
>>indifferent to his work, but then I saw some paintings I really
>>liked, but suddenly realised that they weren't Lowry. :-)
>> I'm afraid most of his do nothing for me although there are a few
>>which are interesting, such as the 'pairs' he produced. I hope
>>they were his, anyway. ;-)
>
>Philistine! how can you not love Matchstick men,,,,,,,it is so naive.....
>
Exactly! The father of one of my wife's friends painted 'naive'
stuff, and when he died she inherited dozens, which she kept in their
loft. An arty person she discussed them with said that they were
valuable, and that they must be kept in closely controlled temperatures
and the correct humidity! However, he didn't offer to store them
himself.....
I must ask her what happened to them all.
Seriously Lowry's work has a novelty value, but I wouldn't want one on
the wall. I have an open mind, you see, I don't like to be told what
is good, I like to decide for myself. :-)
I have 9 or 10 water colours (unsigned prints) by Sir William Russell
Flint, who paints Spanish ladies, and colour-washed buildings of
Provence etc. in a distinctive style. The critics say his work lacks
'intellectual content', <chuckle>.
I also find some of the so-called classics, such as Dickens, to be
rather dull and boring, and can't stand wine snobs, but prefer my own
taste. You can't beat an Australian Blue.....
Seriously again, my favourite wines at the moment are a Chardonnay and a
Cabernet Sauvignon (2004) by Wolf Blass, distinguished by a vivid yellow
label, and from South Australia.
It is priced at £7.99, but on offer from time to time at £6.49 in
Morrisons and £5.99 in Tesco at Home.
At this price it is a real bargain.
--
Gordon Harris
In that case don't ask me to dinner will you, I am an art connosewer,
drink only the best wine. eat only vegetarian, and lurve Dickens.....
LOL....but you can take me down the chippie any day, Three penny worth
with crackling, and lotsa salt and vinegar....
Now what were we talking about....Lowry? I prefer Monet..
Bobbie.......hey fellow I am supposed to be working.....
I chose it because of my name and I lurve Greg .. am pleasantly surprized ..
has sort of a tangy lime-ness to it. Very refreshing.
v
A place in thy memory, dearest,
Is all *I can claim\
To pause and look back when thou hearest
The sound of my name.
Another maywoo thee nearer.
Another may win and wear;
I care not, though he be dearer,
If I am remembered there.
Could I be thy true lover, dearest,
Could thou smile on me,
I would be the foundest and nearest
That ever loved thee.
But a cloud o'er my pathway is glooming
Which never must break upon thine,
Abd Heaven, which made thee all blooming,
Ne'rmadw thee to wither on mine.
Remember me not as a lover
Whose found hope are crossed,
Whose bosom can never recover
T he light it has lost;
As the young bride remembers the mother
She loves, yet never may see,
As a sister remembers a brother,
Oh, dearest, remember me. Gerald Griffin
The Bridge Builder
An old man, going a lone highway.
Came at the evening, cold and gray'
To a chasm, vast and deep and wide,
Through which was flowing a sullen tide.
But he turned, when he reached the other side,
And built a bridge to span the tide.
"Old man." said a fellow pigrim near,
"You are wasting strenth in building here.
Your journy will end with the ending day;
You never again must pass this wa.
You have crossed the chasm, deep and wide,
Why build you the bridge at eventide?"
The Builder liftedhis old gray head.
"Good friend, in the path I have come ," he said,
"There followeth after me today
A youth whose feet must this way.
This chasm that has been naught to me
To that fair-haired youth may a pitfall be.
He, too, must cross in the twilight dim;
Good friend, I am building the bridge for him." Will Allen Dromcoole
Taken from
The Best Loved Poems
of the American People.
"Bobbie" <onymyumb...@ouch.org.uk> wrote in message
news:di0rn8$e4u$2...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Val Adams wrote:
>> Bobbie wrote:
>>
>>> Val Adams wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bobbie wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Not Shakespeare but intersting, I think.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ignorance
>>>>>
>>>>> Strange to know nothing, never to be sure
>>>>> Of what is true or right or real,
>>>>> But forced to qualify, or so I feel,
>>>>> Or Well, it does seem so:
>>>>> Someone must know.
>>>>>
>>>>> Strange to be ignorant of the way things work:
>>>>> Their skill at finding what they need,
>>>>> Their sense of shape, and punctual spread of seed,
>>>>> And willingness to change:
>>>>> Yes it is strange,
>>>>>
>>>>> Even to wear knowledge - for our flesh
>>>>> Surrounds us with its own decisions -
>>>>> And yet spend all our life on imprecisions,
>>>>> That when we start to die
>>>>> Have no idea why.
>>>>>
>>>>> Philip Larkin...
>>>>>
>>>>> Bobbie....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Indeed. Thanks, had not seen this before.
>>>>
>>> You like Poetry Val? I do, have a wonderful collection of poetry books.
>>> given as gifts over the years.....They can be very comforting........
>>>
>>> Bobbie..
>>
>>
>> Yes. write a little, read a lot, especially when life goes a bit wonky
>> and I get to wandering in my own hinterlands. soothes, somehow; maybe the
>> pleasure of hearing old friends? ..I dont normally -honest!- read out
>> loud, but poetry, somehow..I 'hear' ... Lately have been enoying finding
>> them online; chuckle; tho I still prefer a book to a laptop in bed! ;)
>>
> A laptop you say.......surely you can come up with something other than
> that........;-)
> Online is good, but hard print is better....I like to browse, when the
> mood takes me.......
> BTW Philip Larkin is not the most cheerful of poets....
>
> Bobbie.
"Gordon" <Gor...@g3snx.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fyCDWKr7...@g3snx.demon.co.uk...
Good one, Geneo, thanks! XXXXXXXXXX!
LOL
I'm working on it!!
--
Kelly
> Phxbrd wrote:
>>
>> My new dog is named Ed....
>>
>> Ed's a good boy....
>
> LOL
> I'm sure he is.
> Does he like divorced women?
----------------------------------
hmmm. I didn't know you were divorced, Kelly! :-)
--
Knut Willy
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
I wasn't talking of me but of Edward and Mrs Simpson-;)
--
Kelly
And I wasn't condemning you. I was just puzzled at how they could blame him
for betraying his country.
--
Kelly
I'm not Bobbie, but that was a lovely poem.
I don't know Will Allen either.
--
Kelly
Thank you kindly, Both new to me, but added to my anthology....
Bobbie...
Yukk!
I rarely eat fish and chips from a chippie, and I don't lace 'em with
vinegar.
The best I had for a long time was a fish'n'chips lunch in Mallorca, in
a small restaurant run by a Spanish guy and his English wife.
The batter was so light and crispy that it was a shame to eat it.
>
>Now what were we talking about....Lowry? I prefer Monet..
>
>Bobbie.......hey fellow I am supposed to be working.....
Don't let me stop you. :)
--
Gordon Harris
"Gordon" <Gor...@g3snx.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:$kJrjMFW...@g3snx.demon.co.uk...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/arts/natpoetday/index.shtml
Don't be sad....
Bobbie...
One more...
One man on his own can be quite good fun
But don't go drinking with two -
They'll probably have an argument
And take no notice of you.
What makes men so tedious
Is the need to show off and compete.
They'll bore you to death for hours and hours
Before they'll admit defeat.
It often happens at dinner-parties
Where brother disputes with brother
And we can't even talk among ourselves
Because we're not next to each other.
Some men like to argue with women -
Don't give them a chance to begin.
You won't be allowed to change the subject
Until you have given in.
A man with the bit between his teeth
Will keep you up half the night
And the only way to get some sleep
Is to say, 'I expect you're right.'
I expect you're right, my dearest love.
I expect you're right, my friend.
These boring arguments make no difference
To anything in the end.
Copyright: Wendy Cope.
>
1
The Owl and the Pussy-cat went to seaIn a beautiful pea-green boat,They took
some honey, and plenty of money,Wrapped up in a five-pound note.The Owl
looked up to the stars above,And sang to a small guitar,"O lovely Pussy! O
Pussy, my love,What a beautiful Pussy you are,You are,You are! 2 What a
beautiful Pussy you are!"Pussy said to the Owl, "You elegant fowl!How
charmingly sweet you sing!O let us be married! too long we have tarried:But
what shall we do for a ring?"They sailed away, for a year and a day,To the
land where the Bong-tree growsAnd there in a wood a Piggy-wig stoodWith a
ring at the end of his nose,His nose,His nose,With a ring at the end of his
nose. 3 "Dear Pig, are you willing to sell for one shillingYour ring?" Said
the Piggy, "I will."So they took it away, and were married next dayBy the
Turkey who lives on the hill.They dined on mince, and slices of quince,Which
they ate with a runcible spoon;And hand in hand, on the edge of the
sand,They danced by the light of the moon,The moon,The moon,They danced by
the light of the moon. Edward Lear
Bobbie
>>
>>
> LOL, bit tame for you isn't it Sinclair?. your prose is so much more
> risqué.
> There has been a lot of poetry on the radio today, it being National
> Poetry Day, many quite new to me, but has given me food for thought, and
> not a few nice links to new poets I would like to read.....
> You still working too hard?
> Relax, have a wee dram......
>
> Bobbie
Not at all too tame. I love the sound of word well written, well spoken. My
Favourite Houseman
Into my heart an air that kills
From yon far country blows:
What are those blue remembered hills,
What spires, what farms are those?
That is the land of lost content,
I see it shining plain,
The happy highways where I went
And cannot come again.
Sinclair
I remember the cities I have never seen
exactly. Silver-veined Venice, Leningrad
with its toffee-twisted minarets. Paris. Soon
the Impressionists will be making sunshine out of shade.
Oh! and the uncoiling cobra alleys of Hyderabad.
To have loved one horizon is insularity;
it blindfolds vision, it narrows experience.
The spirit is willing, but the mind is dirty.
The flesh wastes itself under crumb-sprinkled linens,
widening the Weltanschauung with magazines.
A world's outside the door, but how upsetting
to stand by your bags on a cold step as dawn
roses the brickwork and before you start regretting,
your taxi's coming with one beep of its horn,
sidling to the curb like a hearse -- so you get in.
Derek Walcott, born in St. Lucia awarded the Nobel Prize for literature in
1992
Ed hasn't mentioned any Mrs. Simpson. Was she the earlier owner who turned
him into the Humane Society? I doubt he'd have much use for her....
>
>
LOL
Maybe you haven't understood him when he's been talking about her! Woff!
--
Kelly
He showed me the scar she caused him to get. He is now really just an
'it'....
I like that, so like life sometimes to be too busy, or going to see great
views then taking pictures of one's nearest and dearest posed in front of
them....
> My new dog is named Ed....
> Ed's a good boy....
Can we see a picture of Ed? I'll show you mine if you show me yours. ;-)
Suze
My stick is full, and I still haven't decided what digital foto program to
use. I don't want to clear it until I've decided. Programs I've looked at
are either proprietary, with my albums under the control of others, or
off-line with no means of e-mailing pix to others. Anybody have a good
answer that combines?
"Kelly" <ke...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:di2og2$fm9$1...@sadr.dfn.de...
"Bobbie" <onymyumb...@ouch.org.uk> wrote in message
news:di12ov$80f$2...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Kelly wrote:
>> Bobbie wrote:
>>
>>>Kelly wrote:
>>>
>>>>Bobbie wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>Kelly
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Kelly I love 55
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Not marble, nor the gilded monuments
>>>>>>Of princes, shall outlive this powerful rhyme;
>>>>>>But you shall shine more bright in these contents
>>>>>>Than unswept stone besmear'd with sluttish time.
>>>>>>When wasteful war shall statues overturn,
>>>>>>And broils root out the work of masonry,
>>>>>>Nor Mars his sword nor war's quick fire shall burn
>>>>>>The living record of your memory.
>>>>>>'Gainst death and all-oblivious enmity
>>>>>>Shall you pace forth; your praise shall still find room
>>>>>>Even in the eyes of all posterity
>>>>>>That wear this world out to the ending doom.
>>>>>>So, till the judgment that yourself arise,
>>>>>>You live in this, and dwell in lover's eyes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sinlair
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Not Shakespeare but intersting, I think.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ignorance
>>>>>
>>>>>Strange to know nothing, never to be sure
>>>>>Of what is true or right or real,
>>>>>But forced to qualify, or so I feel,
>>>>>Or Well, it does seem so:
>>>>>Someone must know.
>>>>>
>>>>>Strange to be ignorant of the way things work:
>>>>>Their skill at finding what they need,
>>>>>Their sense of shape, and punctual spread of seed,
>>>>>And willingness to change:
>>>>>Yes it is strange,
>>>>>
>>>>>Even to wear knowledge - for our flesh
>>>>>Surrounds us with its own decisions -
>>>>>And yet spend all our life on imprecisions,
>>>>>That when we start to die
>>>>>Have no idea why.
>>>>>
>>>>>Philip Larkin...
>>>>>
>>>>>Bobbie....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That one was new to me, thanks Bobbie.
>>>>
>>>>Wasn't he accused of being a nazi sympathizer?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>So was Edward Duke of Windsor....
>>>
>>>Bobbie...
>>
>>
>> I never liked Edward-;)
>>
> LOL, you and me both......Mrs Simpson wasn't on my Christmas card list,
> either.....
> I just wonder how the Americans will take to Camilla. Should be
> interesting.
>
> Bobbie...
Oh poor, poor thing!! lol
--
Kelly
So do I, thanks Bobbie!
--
Kelly
--------------------------
I'm sure there are lots of good programs.
I can only recommend t he one I have been using for many years; JASC PAINT
SHOP PRO.
I paid some money for it, but that is it worth.
--
Knut Willy
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
My photos are all under my control in a hierarchy which enables me to
find them quickly.
--
Gordon Harris
I also have photoshop (5), but with my new laptop (XP) I hardly ever use it
as XP has its own program to downsize pictures when you want to send them
via e-mail.
--
Kelly
I was trying to avoid that "paid" part, but I'm sure you're right. I must
bite the bullet and spend a few dinero....
How much is "expensive"?
(wincing in anticipation)
"Val Adams" <va_a...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:clk1f.2060$xD7...@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...