Re: more musings .....

[sean_q]

On 9/4/2012 6:21 AM, Raven wrote:

> I have not seen described how Sauron managed to take back the Nine. When
> in the presence of a Nazg�l he was powerful enough to take it, whether the
> Nazg�l liked it or not.

I prefer to believe "The Nine the Nazgul keep" literally.
He gave Great Rings of Power to kings who cherished power
and so ensnared them. Since Hobbits are akin to Men,
if the Dark Lord had given one of the Nine to Lotho Pimple
he would have aspired to more than mere Thane of the Shire,
he would probably have coveted all the long leagues
of Eriador to govern.

It's true there are some apparent contradictions, such as
Galadriel telling Frodo, "You saw the Eye of him that holds
the Seven and the Nine." And I can't explain why no Ring
was found on the field at Pelennor after Merry and Eowyn
offed Number One.

But in a way it doesn't really matter who actually has
physical possession; Sauron controls the Ringwraiths and
that's what counts.

SQ

[David Trimboli]

On 9/4/2012 5:14 PM, sean_q wrote:
> On 9/4/2012 6:21 AM, Raven wrote:
>
>> I have not seen described how Sauron managed to take back the Nine. When
>> in the presence of a Nazg�l he was powerful enough to take it, whether
>> the
>> Nazg�l liked it or not.
>
> I prefer to believe "The Nine the Nazgul keep" literally.
> He gave Great Rings of Power to kings who cherished power
> and so ensnared them.

I agree with Raven. We see evidence for this when Frodo threatens to put
on the Ring and command Gollum to kill himself. They both know Gollum
would be forced to obey. This is because Gollum is enslaved to the One
Ring, and its bearer may command its slaves.

If Gollum had attacked Sam while Sam had the Ring, Sam could have
commanded Gollum. However, I suspect that Sam hadn't had it long enough
to use it for command. Frodo had possessed it for years, and was deep in
its power. Sam barely scratched the surface.

So Sauron must command the Ringwraiths because he possesses the Nine. He
can't use those rings to create more Ringwraiths without losing control
over those he already has to whoever has the ring that Ringwraith is
subject to. And he can't command a wearer of one of the Nine without the
One.

So, the summary of my analysis. Wearing the One lets you command anyone
wearing another Ring. The Seven, Nine, and One eventually enslave their
wearers to themselves, and new wearers can command those slaves. In any
case you need sufficient stature and power to command anyone. Dwarves
seem to be immune to enslavement, though they experience other effects.

Pondering: are the Seven and the Nine interchangeable, or is a slave to
one of them only a slave to that particular ring? "Give us back our
ring! No, not that one, the other one!" Can someone wearing one of them
command someone enslaved to another ring? If Gandalf had gotten Thrain's
ring, could he have commanded the Ringwraiths with it? (I don't think
so; I think each ring has power over only its own wearers.)

--
David Trimboli
http://www.trimboli.name/

[Stan Brown]

On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 13:14:16 -0800, sean_q wrote:
> I prefer to believe "The Nine the Nazgul keep" literally.

There are an awful lot of statements by Tolkien that go the other
way, unambiguously:

http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-SauronHeld



--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm

[Stan Brown]

On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 18:22:34 -0400, David Trimboli wrote:
> So, the summary of my analysis. Wearing the One lets you command anyone
> wearing another Ring.

Eventually, yes. But remember the Letters, where Tolkien says that
if Gollum hadn't interfered and the Nazg�l had reached the Cracks of
Doom, they would have *pretended* to obey Frodo, lured him out of the
Sammath Naur, blocked the entrance, and waited for Sauron to come and
take the Ring from Frodo.

http://oakroadsystems.com//genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-FrodoClaim

It takes practice to learn to use the One for command. You can't just
put it on, start issuing orders, and be mindlessly obeyed. Galadriel
told Frodo this: "Before you could use that power you would need to
... train your will to the domination of others."

[David Trimboli]

On 9/6/2012 6:47 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 18:22:34 -0400, David Trimboli wrote:
>> So, the summary of my analysis. Wearing the One lets you command anyone
>> wearing another Ring.
>
> Eventually, yes. But remember the Letters, where Tolkien says that
> if Gollum hadn't interfered and the Nazg�l had reached the Cracks of
> Doom, they would have *pretended* to obey Frodo, lured him out of the
> Sammath Naur, blocked the entrance, and waited for Sauron to come and
> take the Ring from Frodo.
>
> http://oakroadsystems.com//genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-FrodoClaim
>
> It takes practice to learn to use the One for command. You can't just
> put it on, start issuing orders, and be mindlessly obeyed. Galadriel
> told Frodo this: "Before you could use that power you would need to
> ... train your will to the domination of others."

Yes, I mentioned all that in the bit you cut from my message. You only
quoted my summary.