Gollum's near repentance at The Stairs of Cirith Ungol?
Crimson Castle
face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and
tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peerin back
up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior
debate. Then slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched
Frodo's knee - but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment,
could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they
beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far
beyond his time, beyond friends and kind, and the fields and streams of
youth, an old starved pitiable thing.'
(Tokien, LOTR:TwoTowers, Harper Collins edition 1991, pg 742.)
Some people would use this small (most beautifully and exquisitely written)
passage as demonstation of Gollum's near repentance. I'm not too sure
whether you can call it "repentance" - which would mean a complete change of
heart. "Repentance" is - I feel- too strong a word. The passage shows only
just a glimmer - and a very small one at that - of his confusion. Gollum,
old and tired, suddenly and desperately shows a yearning for a brief moment
for his previous life as a Hobbit - before the Ring; Frodo's decency and
kindness has awaken this. But would this desire have matured into something
stronger? It seems too easy to blame Sam for his harsh words to Gollum for
stiffling this "golden opportunity" for Gollum to repent of the errors of
his ways.
I feel that the passage speaks more of the tragic situation of evil
characters like Gollum. There is no chance of turning back and returning to
the past for Gollum. His friends, relatives, and lands are all long gone.
His very appearence is awful. He can dream of a time when he was free of the
corruption of the Ring; but he can only dream.
--
**********************************************
Where now the horse and the rider?
Where is the horn that was blowing?
Where is the helm and the hauberk,
and the bright hair flowing?
Where is the hand on the harpstring,
and the red fire glowing?
Where is the spring and the harvest
and the tall corn growing?
They have passed like rain on the
mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
The days have gone down in the West
behind the hills into shadow. (LOTR:TOLKIEN)
Öjevind Lång
news:dhXGb.65773$aT....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> 'Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean, hungry
> face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and
> tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peerin
back
> up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior
> debate. Then slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he
touched
> Frodo's knee - but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment,
> could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they
> beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far
> beyond his time, beyond friends and kind, and the fields and streams of
> youth, an old starved pitiable thing.'
> (Tokien, LOTR:TwoTowers, Harper Collins edition 1991, pg 742.)
>
> Some people would use this small (most beautifully and exquisitely
written)
> passage as demonstation of Gollum's near repentance. I'm not too sure
> whether you can call it "repentance" - which would mean a complete change
of
> heart. "Repentance" is - I feel- too strong a word.
Tolkien makes it clear that Gollum was indeed near repentance. See this
entry in Appendix B: The Tale of Years:
3019
March
11 Gollum visits Shelob, but seeing Frodo asleep nearly repents.
Öjevind
Scott Marquardt
> I feel that the passage speaks more of the tragic situation of evil
> characters like Gollum. There is no chance of turning back and returning to
> the past for Gollum. His friends, relatives, and lands are all long gone.
> His very appearence is awful. He can dream of a time when he was free of the
> corruption of the Ring; but he can only dream.
It's difficult, indeed, to imagine Gollum returning to Gondor, let us say,
as a hero. Aragorn to Pippin and Merry: "Frodo's psyche was too wasted to
destroy the ring, so Gollum bit off his finger and threw it in himself. We
owe Gollum a great debt."
This is the "Gollum as Frodo's renegade wingman" ending...
- Scott
Christopher Kreuzer
The original passage quoted from the book is indeed beautiful, illustrating
Gollum's internal turmoil. It is pretty easy to speculate that had Gollum
repented then, he would have unrepented later. Even with a repentent Gollum,
you have the problem of getting the ring off Frodo to destroy it. Did
Tolkien ever write about alternate endings?
Can you imagine Gollum in the Grey Havens chapter!
Christopher
--
---
Replace spamgard with isengard to reply
Aris Katsaris
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:nT0Hb.6548$KH7.57...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> "Scott Marquardt" <wasREM...@hotmail.com> wrote
> >
> > It's difficult, indeed, to imagine Gollum returning to Gondor, let us say,
> > as a hero. Aragorn to Pippin and Merry: "Frodo's psyche was too wasted to
> > destroy the ring, so Gollum bit off his finger and threw it in himself. We
> > owe Gollum a great debt."
>
> The original passage quoted from the book is indeed beautiful, illustrating
> Gollum's internal turmoil. It is pretty easy to speculate that had Gollum
> repented then, he would have unrepented later. Even with a repentent Gollum,
> you have the problem of getting the ring off Frodo to destroy it. Did
> Tolkien ever write about alternate endings?
Tolkien said that a repentant Gollum would have still been divided within
himself, between desire for the Ring and loyalty towards Frodo -- in the
end he'd try to fulfill both parts of his psyche by stealing the ring from
Frodo and then willingly throwing himself (and Ring) into the Fire.
Aris Katsaris
Troels Forchhammer
Aris Katsaris <kats...@otenet.gr> enriched us with:
>
<snip>
> Tolkien said that a repentant Gollum would have still been divided
> within himself, between desire for the Ring and loyalty towards Frodo
This is in letter #246 which has been posted in its entirety here and
therefore is available at Google:
http://google.com/groups?selm=ul2kb61snq08f9%40corp.supernews.com
> -- in the end he'd try to fulfill both parts of his psyche by stealing
> the ring from Frodo and then willingly throwing himself (and Ring) into
> the Fire.
And the focus of the story would have shifted to Gollum.
It is, IMO, interesting that Tolkien considers the scenario where Gollum
steals the Ring or takes it by force and then sacrifices himself as being
an alternative to what happened in the book. Doesn't this imply that he
did not think that Gollum's fall into the crack, as told in the book, was
in any way deliberate? (Apart of course from his description of this being
a grace allowed to Frodo).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk
Aris Katsaris
"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message
news:Zx3Hb.5490$k4.1...@news1.nokia.com...
Where I'm concerned it's already obvious from the book, that Gollum did
not mean to fall...
Aris Katsaris
Stan Brown
>It's difficult, indeed, to imagine Gollum returning to Gondor, let us say,
>as a hero. Aragorn to Pippin and Merry: "Frodo's psyche was too wasted to
>destroy the ring, so Gollum bit off his finger and threw it in himself. We
>owe Gollum a great debt."
Tolkien's own "hero Gollum" scenario (in a Letter) was that Gollum
would take the Ring but then deliberately and voluntarily throw
himself in, holding the Ring. If Gollum had repented at Cirith
Ungol, and if his repentance had held, this is what would have
happened.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
Crimson
> Tolkien makes it clear that Gollum was indeed near repentance. See this
> entry in Appendix B: The Tale of Years:
> 3019 March 11 Gollum visits Shelob, but seeing Frodo asleep nearly
repents.
Oh OK. I don't have TTOY. But when was that written? And is it really
concrete or ideas that Tolkien just threw around?
Franklin Cacciutto
> [snip]
>
> I feel that the passage speaks more of the tragic situation of evil
> characters like Gollum. There is no chance of turning back and returning to
> the past for Gollum. His friends, relatives, and lands are all long gone.
> His very appearence is awful. He can dream of a time when he was free of the
> corruption of the Ring; but he can only dream.
>
There would be no "tragic situation" without choice. Gollum is hugely
ambivalent. Although greviously weakened by long possesion of (and
possession by) the Ring, he still chooses between good and evil. The
epic is about the triumph of good over evil. Gollum is not a lesson to
the contrary.
Franklin
Crimson
Gollum's internal turmoil. It is pretty easy to speculate that had Gollum
repented then, he would have unrepented later. Even with a repentent Gollum,
you have the problem of getting the ring off Frodo to destroy it. Did
Tolkien ever write about alternate endings?
> Can you imagine Gollum in the Grey Havens chapter!
Hello Christopher,
Yes, one of my favourite passages in literature !! I think you're right- the
passage only indicated that Gollum had a slight glimmer of doubt brought on
by his old age and desire for "the old life". Its hard to see him - doing
the right and noble thing by taking the ring and jumping into Mount Doom
with it - in something similar to Terminator2.... which was another great
moment in film history.
LOL. No I couldn't imagine Gollum in GH. :) Its a good thing fate took
"care" of him.
Merry Christmas to you!
Aris Katsaris
"Crimson" <deletethis_c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:po6Hb.66112$aT....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
It's in the published appendices of Return of the King. Appendix B.
Aris Katsaris
CC
news:Zx3Hb.5490>
And here it is -
246 From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) September 1963
(I wonder whether Mrs Eileen Elgar has saved Tolkien's letter - reading it
in its final draft would be interesting)
[A reply to a reader's comments on Frodo's failure to surrender the Ring in
the Cracks of Doom.]
Very few (indeed so far as letters go only you and one other) have observed
or commented on Frodo's 'failure'. It is a very important point.
From the point of view of the storyteller the events on Mt Doom proceed
simply from the logic of the tale up to that time. They were not
deliberately worked up to nor foreseen until they occurred.[1] But, for one
thing, it became at last quite clear that Frodo after all that had happened
would be incapable of voluntarily destroying the Ring. Reflecting on the
solution after it was arrived at (as a mere event) I feel that it is central
to the whole 'theory' of true nobility and heroism that is presented.
Frodo indeed 'failed' as a hero, as conceived by simple minds: he did not
endure to the end; he gave in, ratted. I do not say 'simple minds' with
contempt: they often see with clarity the simple truth and the absolute
ideal to which effort must be directed, even if it is unattainable. Their
weakness, however, is twofold. They do not perceive the complexity of any
given situation in Time, in which an absolute ideal is enmeshed. They tend
to forget that strange element in the World that we call Pity or Mercy,
which is also an absolute requirement in moral judgement (since it is
present in the Divine nature). In its highest exercise it belongs to God.
For finite judges of imperfect knowledge it must lead to the use of two
different scales of 'morality'. To ourselves we must present the absolute
ideal without compromise, for we do not know our own limits of natural
strength (+grace), and if we do not aim at the highest we shall certainly
fall short of the utmost that we could achieve. To others, in any case of
which we know enough to make a judgement, we must apply a scale tempered by
'mercy': that is, since we can with good will do this without the bias
inevitable in judgements of ourselves, we must estimate the limits of
another's strength and weigh this against the force of particular
circumstances.[2]
I do not think that Frodo's was a moral failure. At the last moment the
pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have
said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of
increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what he
could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had
produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His
humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by
the highest honour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum
gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed.
We are finite creatures with absolute limitations upon the powers of our
soul-body structure in either action or endurance. Moral failure can only be
asserted, I think, when a man's effort or endurance falls short of his
limits, and the blame decreases as that limit is closer approached.[3]
Nonetheless, I think it can be observed in history and experience that some
individuals seem to be placed in 'sacrificial' positions: situations or
tasks that for perfection of solution demand powers beyond their utmost
limits, even beyond all possible limits for an incarnate creature in a
physical world - in which a body may be destroyed, or so maimed that it
affects the mind and will. Judgement upon any such case should then depend
on the motives and disposition with which he started out, and should weigh
his actions against the utmost possibility of his powers, all along the road
to whatever proved the breaking-point.
Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from
disaster at his own expense, if he could; and also in complete humility,
acknowledging that he was wholly inadequate to the task. His real contract
was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the
road as his strength of mind and body allowed. He did that. I do not myself
see that the breaking of his mind and will under demonic pressure after
torment was any more a moral failure than the breaking of his body would
have been - say, by being strangled by Gollum, or crushed by a falling rock.
That appears to have been the judgement of Gandalf and Aragorn and of all
who learned the full story of his journey. Certainly nothing would be
concealed by Frodo! But what Frodo himself felt about the events is quite
another matter.
He appears at first to have had no sense of guilt (III 224-5); he was
restored to sanity and peace. But then he thought that he had given his life
in sacrifice: he expected to die very soon. But he did not, and one can
observe the disquiet growing in him. Arwen was the first to observe the
signs, and gave him her jewel for comfort, and thought of a way of healing
him.[4] Slowly he fades 'out of the picture', saying and doing less and
less. I think it is clear on reflection to an attentive reader that when his
dark times came upon him and he was conscious of being 'wounded by knife
sting and tooth and a long burden' (III 268) it was not only nightmare
memories of past horrors that afflicted him, but also unreasoning
self-reproach: he saw himself and all that he done as a broken failure.
'Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same, for I shall not
be the same.' That was actually a temptation out of the Dark, a last flicker
of pride: desire to have returned as a 'hero', not content with being a mere
instrument of good. And it was mixed with another temptation, blacker and
yet (in a sense) more merited, for however that may be explained, he had not
in fact cast away the Ring by a voluntary act: he was tempted to regret its
destruction, and still to desire it. 'It is gone for ever, and now all is
dark and empty', he said as he wakened from his sickness in 1420.
'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III
268) - not in Middle-earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to
heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually
to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within
Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period
of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his
position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the
natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.
Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself.
Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo, from the hobbit's childhood
onwards. His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake - it is
difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's
experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a
companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved.
(Cf III 252 lines 12 to 21 and 263 lines 1-2.) But he also needed and
deserved the favour on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring
that needed to be finally erased : a trace of pride and personal
possessiveness. Of course he was old and confused in mind, but it was still
a revelation of the 'black mark' when he said in Rivendell (III 265) 'What's
become of my ring, Frodo, that you took away?'; and when he was reminded of
what had happened, his immediate reply was: 'What a pity! I should have
liked to see it again'. As for reward for his pan, it is difficult to feel
that his life would be complete without an experience of 'pure Elvishness',
and the opportunity of hearing the legends and histories in full the
fragments of which had so delighted him.
It is clear, of course, that the plan had actually been made and concerted
(by Arwen, Gandalf and others) before Arwen spoke. But Frodo did not
immediately take it in; the implications would slowly be understood on
reflection. Such a journey would at first seem something not necessarily to
be feared, even as something to look forward to - so long as undated and
postponable. His real desire was hobbitlike (and humanlike) just 'to be
himself again and get back to the old familiar life that had been
interrupted. Already on the journey back from Rivendell he suddenly saw that
was not for him possible. Hence his cry 'Where shall I find rest?' He knew
the answer, and Gandalf did not reply. As for Bilbo, it is probable that
Frodo did not at first understand what Arwen meant by 'he will not again
make any long journey save one'. At any rate he did not associate it with
his own case. When Arwen spoke (in TA 3019) he was still young, not yet 51,
and Bilbo 78 years older. But at Rivendell he came to understand things more
clearly. The conversations he had there are not reported, but enough is
revealed in Elrond's farewell III 267. From the onset of the first sickness
(Oct. 5, 3019) Frodo must have been thinking about 'sailing', though still
resisting a final decision - to go with Bilbo, or to go at all. It was no
doubt after his grievous illness in March 3020 that his mind was made up.
Sam is meant to be lovable and laughable. Some readers he irritates and even
infuriates. I can well understand it. All hobbits at times affect me in the
same way, though I remain very fond of them. But Sam can be very 'trying'.
He is a more representative hobbit than any others that we have to see much
of; and he has consequently a stronger ingredient of that quality which even
some hobbits found at times hard to bear: a vulgarity - by which I do not
mean a mere 'down-to-earthiness' - a mental myopia which is proud of itself,
a smugness (in varying degrees) and cocksureness, and a readiness to measure
and sum up all things from a limited experience, largely enshrined in
sententious traditional 'wisdom'. We only meet exceptional hobbits in close
companionship - those who had a grace or gift: a vision of beauty, and a
reverence for things nobler than themselves, at war with their rustic
self-satisfaction. Imagine Sam without his education by Bilbo and his
fascination with things Elvish! Not difficult. The Cotton family and the
Gaffer, when the 'Travellers' return are a sufficient glimpse.
Sam was cocksure, and deep down a little conceited; but his conceit had been
transformed by his devotion to Frodo. He did not think of himself as heroic
or even brave, or in any way admirable - except in his service and loyalty
to his master. That had an ingredient (probably inevitable) of pride and
possessiveness: it is difficult to exclude it from the devotion of those who
perform such service. In any case it prevented him from fully understanding
the master that he loved, and from following him in his gradual education to
the nobility of service to the unlovable and of perception of damaged good
in the corrupt. He plainly did not fully understand Frodo's motives or his
distress in the incident of the Forbidden Pool. If he had understood better
what was going on between Frodo and Gollum, things might have turned out
differently in the end. For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale
comes in II 323 ff. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's
tone and aspect. 'Nothing, nothing', said Gollum softly. 'Nice master!'. His
repentance is blighted and all Frodo's pity is (in a sense[5]) wasted.
Shelob's lair became inevitable.
This is due of course to the 'logic of the story'. Sam could hardly have
acted differently. (He did reach the point of pity at last (III 221-222) but
for the good of Gollum too late.) If he had, what could then have happened?
The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom
would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have
shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between
his repentance and his new love on one side and the Ring. Though the love
would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery
from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum
would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both.
Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the
Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But
'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for
Frodo's sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.
I think that an effect of his partial regeneration by love would have been a
clearer vision when he claimed the Ring. He would have perceived the evil of
Sauron, and suddenly realized that he could not use the Ring and had not the
strength or stature to keep it in Sauron's despite: the only way to keep it
and hurt Sauron was to destroy it and himself together - and in a flash he
may have seen that this would also be the greatest service to Frodo. Frodo
in the tale actually takes the Ring and claims it, and certainly he too
would have had a clear vision - but he was not given any time: he was
immediately attacked by Gollum. When Sauron was aware of the seizure of the
Ring his one hope was in its power: that the claimant would be unable to
relinquish it until Sauron had time to deal with him. Frodo too would then
probably, if not attacked, have had to take the same way: cast himself with
the Ring into the abyss. If not he would of course have completely failed.
It is an interesting problem: how Sauron would have acted or the claimant
have resisted. Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally
fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the
Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the
more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation was now different to
that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to
use (in vain) the Ring's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had
grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed
it as an instrument of command and domination?
Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor
laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned
to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand -
laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held)
had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the
Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end
could not be in doubt - saving help from outside, which was hardly even
remotely possible.
Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual
enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will
was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in
resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed
time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case
is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance
could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile
wills. Even so for a long time his acts and commands would still have to
seem 'good' to him, to be for the benefit of others beside himself.
The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight[6] might be
compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced
by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned
blades. The man's weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon
yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their
weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an
object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned
to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown
'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. With fair speeches
they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur - for instance 'to
look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of
power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes'. Once outside the
chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance.
Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans
of reformed rule - like but far greater and wider than the vision that
tempted Sam (III 177) - to heed this. But if he still preserved some sanity
and partly understood the significance of it, so that he refused now to go
with them to Barad-dûr, they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself
came. In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken
place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have
been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a
gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and
under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for
its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal
stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not
even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful
owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows
the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their
power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be
thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more
than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able
to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure
of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.
Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an
emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit
taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it
appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring
and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of
the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the
essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme
power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen
in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation
was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or
Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they
would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals
and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy
him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not
contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in
such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true
allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because
Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was
weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors.
If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same
as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken
from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It
would have been the master in the end.
Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have
remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule
and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to
his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).
[The draft ends here. In the margin Tolkien wrote: 'Thus while Sauron
multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left "good" clearly distinguishable
from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.']
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
[1] Actually, since the events at the Cracks of Doom would obviously be
vital to the Tale, I made several sketches or trial versions at various
stages in the narrative - but none of them were used, and none of them much
resembled what is actually reported in the finished story.
[2] We frequently see this double scale used by the saints in their
judgements upon themselves when suffering great hardships or temptations,
and upon others in like trials.
[3] No account is here taken of 'grace' or the enhancement of our powers as
instruments of Providence. Frodo was given 'grace': first to answer the call
(at the end of the Council) after long resisting a complete surrender; and
later in his resistance to the temptation of the Ring (at times when to
claim and so reveal it would have been fatal), and in his endurance of fear
and suffering. But grace is not infinite, and for the most pan seems in the
Divine economy limited to what is sufficient for the accomplishment of the
task appointed to one instrument in a pattern of circumstances and other
instruments.
[4] It is not made explicit how she could arrange this. She could not of
course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those
of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not permitted, and any exception required
'authority', and she was not in direct communication with the Valar,
especially not since her choice to become 'mortal'. What is meant is that it
was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a
plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used
her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her
renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's : both
were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer
might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity
of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her
plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and
virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron. He
was also in special accord with Cirdan the Ship-master, who had surrendered
to him his ring and so placed himself under Gandalf's command. Since Gandalf
himself went on the Ship there would be so to speak no trouble either at
embarking or at the landing.
[5] In the sense that 'pity' to be a true virtue must be directed to the
good of its object. It is empty if it is exercised only to keep oneself
'clean', free from hate or the actual doing of injustice, though this is
also a good motive.
[6] The Witch-king had been reduced to impotence.
Stan Brown
>"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message
>news:Zx3Hb.5490>
>http://google.com/groups?selm=ul2kb61snq08f9%40corp.supernews.com
>And here it is -
>246 From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) September 1963
Why post that again? The Google cite lets people find it easily
without wasting bandwidth, as your duplicate has done.
Bryan S. Slick
[Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:59:53 -0500]
:In article <LgaHb.66282$aT....@news-server.bigpond.net.au> in
:rec.arts.books.tolkien, CC wrote:
:>"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message
:>news:Zx3Hb.5490>
:>http://google.com/groups?selm=ul2kb61snq08f9%40corp.supernews.com
:>And here it is -
:>246 From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) September 1963
:[~350 lines snipped]
:
:Why post that again? The Google cite lets people find it easily
:without wasting bandwidth, as your duplicate has done.
...and to be sure, the post rather snarkily and snippishly "correcting"
someone for posting on-topic content, is nothing but bandwidth
remarkably well-used.
Why do some insist on talking abotu bandwidth as if it's a natural
resource that's going to run out?
Frankly, I find it very irritating when someone asks a question and the
only answer forthcoming is a reference to a discussion of the same topic
two years prior, or to a section of the FAQ. That person is basically
being told, "We've already discussed this. You weren't here, too bad..
any new opinion or information you may have is irrelevant. We're not
interested in what you have to say."
--
Bryan S. Slick, bryan_s at slick-family dot net
"To those who have fought for it,
freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
Scott Marquardt
> [Stan Brown (the_sta...@fastmail.fm)]
> [Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:59:53 -0500]
>
>:In article <LgaHb.66282$aT....@news-server.bigpond.net.au> in
>:rec.arts.books.tolkien, CC wrote:
>:>"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message
>:>news:Zx3Hb.5490>
>:>http://google.com/groups?selm=ul2kb61snq08f9%40corp.supernews.com
>:>And here it is -
>:>246 From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) September 1963
> :[~350 lines snipped]
>:
>:Why post that again? The Google cite lets people find it easily
>:without wasting bandwidth, as your duplicate has done.
>
> ...and to be sure, the post rather snarkily and snippishly "correcting"
> someone for posting on-topic content, is nothing but bandwidth
> remarkably well-used.
>
> Why do some insist on talking abotu bandwidth as if it's a natural
> resource that's going to run out?
For my part, I'm irritated by people who whine about bandwidth, AND people
who whine about links to extragroupicular sources.
;-)
- Scott
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote
> > Can you imagine Gollum in the Grey Havens chapter!
> LOL. No I couldn't imagine Gollum in GH. :) Its a good thing fate took
> "care" of him.
>
> Merry Christmas to you!
And to you, or rather an early Happy New Year!
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:po6Hb.66112$aT....@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
It is in the appendices to "The Return of The King".
--
mv
teepee
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote
> Can you imagine Gollum in the Grey Havens chapter!
I sort of got the impression that Gollum would have died as soon as the ring
melted anyway. That was certainly his own view IIRC
Christopher Kreuzer
Well, OK, as ashes in an urn then...
To be scattered on the Great Sea. :-)
Gollum says that he will die when the ring is destroyed?
Can anyone quote some text?
Aris Katsaris
>
> Gollum says that he will die when the ring is destroyed?
> Can anyone quote some text?
Book VI: Chapter 3: Mount Doom
****
'Don't kill us,' he wept. 'Don't hurt us with nassty cruel steel!
Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! We're lost.
And when Precious goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust.' He
clawed up the ashes of the path with his long fleshless fingers.
'Dusst!' he hissed.
****
Aris Katsaris
Christopher Kreuzer
>
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote
> >
> > Gollum says that he will die when the ring is destroyed?
> > Can anyone quote some text?
>
> Book VI: Chapter 3: Mount Doom
>
> ****
> 'Don't kill us,' he wept. 'Don't hurt us with nassty cruel steel!
> Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! We're lost.
> And when Precious goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust.' He
> clawed up the ashes of the path with his long fleshless fingers.
> 'Dusst!' he hissed.
> ****
Sounds like something made up to stop Sam killing him.
It worked. He got another chance to try and get the Ring.
How would Gollum know that his extended life (extended by the Ring) would be
undone when the Ring was destroyed? I thought Gandalf said there was hope
for Gollum. If Gollum dies when the Ring is destroyed, then there never was
any hope for him, only a fool's hope. :-)
Stan Brown
>Sounds like something made up to stop Sam killing him.
>It worked. He got another chance to try and get the Ring.
>
>How would Gollum know that his extended life (extended by the Ring) would be
>undone when the Ring was destroyed? I thought Gandalf said there was hope
>for Gollum. If Gollum dies when the Ring is destroyed, then there never was
>any hope for him, only a fool's hope. :-)
Gollum might not have _known_, probably did not know, but could have
been making a shrewd guess. Or Sauron might have said something
about it to him, as part of the torture.
But guess or knowledge, it does seem right. The Ring holds back
change, in the form of the aging of its bearers. Remember that when
Bilbo and Frodo met in Rivendell, Bilbo was not noticeably older
than he had been when he left the Shire, and then he looked fifty
(early middle age for a hobbit). But only a year later, Frodo met
Bilbo again and he looked and acted fully 130, as though the Ring
had never existed. So Gollum would have suddenly (or perhaps just at
least rapidly) aged to 550 years, nothing left but dust and bones.
See "E12. Then why didn't Gollum and Bilbo die when they lost the
Ring?" in the FAQ of the Rings.
Xemus younger brother
How much more could Gollum do?
kitznegari thinks it has wings
>How much more could Gollum do?
well he didn't really do it out of benevolence, now did he? he was no christ
figure... he was just a greedy little addict waiting for someone to get out of
their car so he could make off with the stereo, if you see what i'm saying.
- k i t z -
if they knew sweet little you
they'd end up loving you too
all those same people who scold you
what they'd give just for the right to hold you
http://spinning_plates.tripod.com
Morgil
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> kirjoitti
viestissä:yjqHb.7452$SK3.64...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> How would Gollum know that his extended life (extended by the Ring) would
be
> undone when the Ring was destroyed? I thought Gandalf said there was hope
> for Gollum. If Gollum dies when the Ring is destroyed, then there never
was
> any hope for him, only a fool's hope. :-)
Gandalf probably meant that there was hope for Gollum
to repent and die peacefully, which is basically the only
hope any man can have. Take Darth Vader for example ;)
Morgil
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> kirjoitti
> > How would Gollum know that his extended life (extended by the Ring)
would
> be
> > undone when the Ring was destroyed? I thought Gandalf said there was
hope
> > for Gollum. If Gollum dies when the Ring is destroyed, then there never
> was
> > any hope for him, only a fool's hope. :-)
>
> Gandalf probably meant that there was hope for Gollum
> to repent and die peacefully, which is basically the only
> hope any man can have.
Ah. Of course. Thanks.
> Take Darth Vader for example ;)
Surely you mean Theoden? :-)
Luminaria
"CC" <deletethis_c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LgaHb.66282$aT....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> "Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message
> news:Zx3Hb.5490>
> http://google.com/groups?selm=ul2kb61snq08f9%40corp.supernews.com
> And here it is -
> 246 From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) September 1963
>
thank you for posting this. it was a great read.
Lis
Luminaria
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> Sounds like something made up to stop Sam killing him.
> It worked. He got another chance to try and get the Ring.
>
> How would Gollum know that his extended life (extended by the Ring) would
be
> undone when the Ring was destroyed? I thought Gandalf said there was hope
> for Gollum. If Gollum dies when the Ring is destroyed, then there never
was
> any hope for him, only a fool's hope. :-)
>
> Christopher
Well, Bilbo certainly started to age rapidly once he gave up the Ring to
Frodo. It is possible that Gollum had enough functioning brain cells left to
realize that at over 500 years old the physical effect on him could be
massive, once the Ring is destroyed. What I've always wondered is that if in
a few decades Bilbo ages quite a bit w/o the Ring, how then does Gollum
manage to survive w/o any major aging? Or is it simply that it protected him
so long that he takes longer restart the natural aging process? Or is it
that he was younger than Bilbo when he started, barely out of childhood, and
so when he starts to age again, he was not physically as old as Bilbo was
when he started to age again?
As for hope for Gollum - perhaps Gandalf is speaking of spiritual hope? If
Gollum can be morally and ethically rehabilitated, then his "hope" need not
be of this plane. He is already ruined physically and emotionally. He could
never heal from what the Ring has done to him. As far as I can see, his only
hope of any kind of healing would be healing of the spirit.
Lis
Stan Brown
>Well, Bilbo certainly started to age rapidly once he gave up the Ring to
>Frodo.
Really? Where do you get that?
To me Bilbo seemed to be the same hobbit, not noticeably older when
Frodo meets him again in Rivendell after 18 years. By contrast, he
was much older and more feeble, almost gaga, just a year later after
the Ring had actually been destroyed.
Christopher Kreuzer
> In article <3fefd5c0$0$4760$61fe...@news.rcn.com> in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien, Luminaria wrote:
> >Well, Bilbo certainly started to age rapidly once he gave up the Ring to
> >Frodo.
>
> Really? Where do you get that?
Probably from the film...
> To me Bilbo seemed to be the same hobbit, not noticeably older when
> Frodo meets him again in Rivendell after 18 years. By contrast, he
> was much older and more feeble, almost gaga, just a year later after
> the Ring had actually been destroyed.
They did get this partly right in the film. Bilbo was much older and
'slower' at the Grey Havens. Though he perked up at the thought of another
adventure. :-) I also like the way the film-makers changed the time between
Weathertop and the Grey Havens (technically the moment where Frodo clutches
his shoulder) from two years (book) to four years (film). This explains why
Sam has two daughters, and allowed Sean Astin's daughter to play Eleanor. In
another nod to the extra two years, Bilbo is in a cart, rather than on a
pony. That is only my opinion though. But it makes sense. Details like that
make me appreciate some of the thought and effort that went into these
films.
Gary E. Masters
I think that was his only hope. Earlier Gandalf had said that Merry
and Pippin had "saved" Boromir. But he died. Gandalf was considering
his spirit.
Luminaria
"Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a5a14924...@news.odyssey.net...
> In article <3fefd5c0$0$4760$61fe...@news.rcn.com> in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien, Luminaria wrote:
> >Well, Bilbo certainly started to age rapidly once he gave up the Ring to
> >Frodo.
>
> Really? Where do you get that?
>
> To me Bilbo seemed to be the same hobbit, not noticeably older when
> Frodo meets him again in Rivendell after 18 years. By contrast, he
> was much older and more feeble, almost gaga, just a year later after
> the Ring had actually been destroyed.
He was described as noticably weaker, tended to fall asleep all the time.
Seemed much more frail. Either aging or he was having problems with the
Elven water....
Lis
Luminaria
> "Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote
> > In article <3fefd5c0$0$4760$61fe...@news.rcn.com> in
> > rec.arts.books.tolkien, Luminaria wrote:
> > >Well, Bilbo certainly started to age rapidly once he gave up the Ring
to
> > >Frodo.
> >
> > Really? Where do you get that?
>
> Probably from the film...
>
Oh, yeah, right... that's right - I forgot - lets just assume that no one's
ever read the book....
"Suddenly he noticed, not far from the further end of the fire, a small dark
figure, seated on a stool with his back propped up against a pillar. Beside
him on the ground was a drinking-cup and some bread. Frodo wondered whether
he was ill (if people were ever ill in Rivendell), and had been unable to
come to the feast. His head seemed sunk in sleep on his breast, and a fold
of his dark cloak was drawn over his face.
Elrond went forward and stood beside the silent figure. "Awake, little
master!" he said, with a smile. Then, turning to Frodo, he beckoned to him.
"Now at last the hour has come that you have wished for, Frodo," he said.
"Here is the friend that you have long missed."
The dark figure raised its head and uncovered its face.
"Bilbo!" cried Frodo with sudden reognition, and he sprang forward.
"Hullo, Frodo my lad!" said Bilbo. "So, you have got here at last. I
hoped you would manage it. Well, well! So all the feasting is in your
honour, I hear. I hope you enjoyed yourself?"
"Why weren't you there?" cried Frodo. "And why haven't I been allowed to
see you before?"
"Because you were asleep. I have seen a good deal of you. I have sat by
your side with Sam each day. But as for the feast, I don't go in for such
things much now. And I had something else to do."
"What were you doing?"
"Why, sitting and thinking. I do a lot of that nowadays, and this is the
best place to do it in, as a rule."
(TfotR, book II, chapter 1)
Bilbo seems older here, even at first sight. In a moment he will deny
sleeping, saying he was working out lines to a song - but he appears "ill"
and doesn't have the will or perhaps the energy to go to feasts anymore. He
spends much of his time "sitting and thinking", as the elderly tend to do.
His reaction to meeting Frodo is a bit odd too - If I saw such a reaction in
person I'd wonder if the person was getting a bit befuddled in their
thoughts. Most folks would have had a more, ah, energetic response, and
certainly Bilbo had much more energy the last time we saw him. He is up to
helping Gandalf unload his packages and fireworks, and has plenty of energy
at The Party. He is able to journey from the Shire to Rivendell on his own.
Yet now Gloin remarks to Frodo that Bilbo will, most likely, never see the
wonderful changes to Smaug's desolation. At the council meeting he is told
that not only has the task of the Ring passed on to another, that the
journey is beyond his strength. He is aging, and apparently aging quite
rapidly. Not turning to bones and dust, certainly, but the "protection" of
the Ring is off him now, and the normal aging process is catching up with
him.
Lis
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote
> > Luminaria wrote:
> > >Well, Bilbo certainly started to age rapidly once he gave up the Ring
to
> > >Frodo.
> >
> > Really? Where do you get that?
> >
> > To me Bilbo seemed to be the same hobbit, not noticeably older when
> > Frodo meets him again in Rivendell after 18 years. By contrast, he
> > was much older and more feeble, almost gaga, just a year later after
> > the Ring had actually been destroyed.
>
> He was described as noticably weaker, tended to fall asleep all the time.
> Seemed much more frail. Either aging or he was having problems with the
> Elven water....
Frodo meets Bilbo in Rivendell _before_ the War of the Ring (this is the 18
years later, 18 years after Bilbo left the Shire), and Bilbo appears to have
been asleep:
" 'Wake up indeed!' [Bilbo] said, cocking an eye at Elrond. There was a
bright twinkle in it and no sign of sleepiness that Frodo could see. 'Wake
up! I was not asleep, Master Elrond.' " (Many Meetings, FotR).
In fact, Bilbo had been sitting and thinking about his recitation of his
song of Earendil. A long song that he performed that evening. He then stayed
up long into the night talking with Frodo. Hardly frail. He is described as
older, but that would be the 18 years.
Compare this with what Arwen says to Frodo following her wedding to Aragorn
_after_ the War of the Ring, when Frodo mentions Bilbo's absence from the
celebrations:
" 'Do you wonder at that Ring-bearer?' said Arwen. 'For you know the power
of that thing which is now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is
now passing away. But your kinsman possessed this thing longer than you. He
is ancient in years now, according to his kind; and he awaits you, for he
will not again make any long journey save one.' " (Many Partings, RotK).
And later in the chapter when they arrive at Rivendell, Bilbo "looked very
old, but peaceful and sleepy" and he often fell asleep. He also loses the
thread of conversations and falls asleep again several times over the next
few pages. Bilbo himself says "I am getting so sleepy."
Bilbo only has one line in the Grey Havens chapter, so we can't really see
any further developments in his ageing, but he does seem to be nodding in
his sleep on his pony.
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote
> > "Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote
> > > Luminaria wrote:
> > > >Well, Bilbo certainly started to age rapidly once he gave up the Ring
> to
> > > >Frodo.
> > >
> > > Really? Where do you get that?
> >
> > Probably from the film...
> >
>
> Oh, yeah, right... that's right - I forgot - lets just assume that no
one's
> ever read the book....
Nice try. I'm going to add comments to the section you quoted from the book,
but you stopped a few sentences too soon. I'll add those in as well.
> "Suddenly he noticed, not far from the further end of the fire, a small
dark
> figure, seated on a stool with his back propped up against a pillar.
Beside
> him on the ground was a drinking-cup and some bread. Frodo wondered
whether
Frodo *wondered*. Well he is soon to be proven wrong.
> he was ill (if people were ever ill in Rivendell), and had been unable to
> come to the feast. His head seemed sunk in sleep on his breast, and a fold
> of his dark cloak was drawn over his face.
*seemed* sunk in sleep.
> Elrond went forward and stood beside the silent figure. "Awake,
little
> master!" he said, with a smile. Then, turning to Frodo, he beckoned to
him.
> "Now at last the hour has come that you have wished for, Frodo," he said.
> "Here is the friend that you have long missed."
Elrond is mistaken about Bilbo being asleep.
> The dark figure raised its head and uncovered its face.
> "Bilbo!" cried Frodo with sudden reognition, and he sprang forward.
> "Hullo, Frodo my lad!" said Bilbo. "So, you have got here at last. I
> hoped you would manage it. Well, well! So all the feasting is in your
> honour, I hear. I hope you enjoyed yourself?"
> "Why weren't you there?" cried Frodo. "And why haven't I been allowed
to
> see you before?"
> "Because you were asleep. I have seen a good deal of you. I have sat
by
> your side with Sam each day. But as for the feast, I don't go in for such
> things much now. And I had something else to do."
> "What were you doing?"
> "Why, sitting and thinking. I do a lot of that nowadays, and this is
the
> best place to do it in, as a rule."
> (TfotR, book II, chapter 1)
Followed immediately by:
" 'Wake up indeed!' [Bilbo] said, cocking an eye at Elrond. There was a
bright twinkle in it and no sign of sleepiness that Frodo could see. 'Wake
up! I was not asleep, Master Elrond.' " (Many Meetings, FotR).
This immediately contradicts your whole argument. Talk about quoting out of
context!
There is *no sign* of sleepiness. There are several other points supporting
my argument. They are in another thread but I can summarize them as follows:
Bilbo went on to recite the long song he composed about Earendil.
He stayed up late into the night talking with Frodo.
Neither of these are signs of extreme old age or senility.
> Bilbo seems older here, even at first sight. In a moment he will deny
> sleeping, saying he was working out lines to a song - but he appears "ill"
> and doesn't have the will or perhaps the energy to go to feasts anymore.
No. In his own words: "But as for the feast, I don't go in for such things
much now. And I had something else to do." Polishing up his song no doubt.
> He spends much of his time "sitting and thinking", as the elderly tend to
do.
> His reaction to meeting Frodo is a bit odd too - If I saw such a reaction
in
> person I'd wonder if the person was getting a bit befuddled in their
> thoughts. Most folks would have had a more, ah, energetic response, and
Nothing wrong with Bilbo's reaction. Nicely understated if anything.
> certainly Bilbo had much more energy the last time we saw him. He is up to
> helping Gandalf unload his packages and fireworks, and has plenty of
energy
> at The Party. He is able to journey from the Shire to Rivendell on his
own.
> Yet now Gloin remarks to Frodo that Bilbo will, most likely, never see the
> wonderful changes to Smaug's desolation. At the council meeting he is told
> that not only has the task of the Ring passed on to another, that the
> journey is beyond his strength.
He cannot journey long distances. That doesn't mean he is on his last legs!
He is quite capable of carrying on his scholarly work at Rivendell, which is
what he had been doing for the past 18 years, setting down his translations
of Elvish lore.
> He is aging, and apparently aging quite
> rapidly. Not turning to bones and dust, certainly, but the "protection" of
> the Ring is off him now, and the normal aging process is catching up with
> him.
But not as much as you think. The change in just under one year is quite
remarkable. Again my other post covers these points, but it is quite clear
that Bilbo ages dramatically in that year, most probably due to the
destruction of the Ring.
Luminaria
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> But not as much as you think.
as much as *I* think? My thinking is that he's aging at an increased pace,
now that he's not got the ring. At least catching up with where he should
be, at nearly 120 years old. Like I said, he's not turning to bones and
dust. And I didn't say he was getting senile - I said he was slowing down
and aging. Which is one way the scene could be seen in one's minds eye. I've
always thought of him as curled up in his easy chair, wrapped in a shawl,
feet in his slippers, moving more slowly, maybe with arthritis creeping up
on him now. Hair certainly more grey. Moving a bit more slowly. Tending more
towards introspection and memories, as the aged tend to do. That he prefers
not going to feasts all of a sudden is a character change that could
indicate age, as it so often does in the elderly, the noise and bustle of
big get-togethers can be bothersome to them. He's gone from Bilbo the well
perserved to Bilbo the genuinely elderly.
The change in just under one year is quite
> remarkable. Again my other post covers these points, but it is quite clear
> that Bilbo ages dramatically in that year, most probably due to the
> destruction of the Ring.
>
I think we agree way more than you think...
Lis
Christopher Kreuzer
> I think we agree way more than you think...
Maybe. This is the quote that started off this thread.
...........................
Luminaria wrote:
>Well, Bilbo certainly started to age rapidly once he gave up the Ring to
>Frodo.
............................
Stan Brown questioned that and I leapt into the discussion on his side.
The distinction that is being made here is between two periods of ageing
(1) The 18 years between Bilbo giving up the Ring to Frodo and Frodo
arriving in Rivendell pursued by Black Riders.
and:
(2) The 1 year between Frodo leaving Rivendell on the Quest of the Ring and
Frodo returning to Rivendell, having destroyed the Ring in that year.
I think we all agree that Bilbo ages during both time spans. It is the rate
of ageing that is in question. The *rapid* ageing (2) does not begin until
the Ring is destroyed. The rate of ageing in (1) is more open to debate, but
it would be logical for it to be low, otherwise Gollum would not have
survived for the 80 years he did after losing the Ring to Bilbo.
Stan quoted his FAQ page at some point. That covers this point (E12 I
think). Stan, if you are reading this, I was looking at your FAQ page and
trying to find the references to see if you included the Arwen quote to
illustrate the effect of the Ring's destruction, but I don't have the
correct editions of the books. The conversion charts don't help either. :-(
Glenn Holliday
>
> I feel that the passage speaks more of the tragic situation of evil
> characters like Gollum. There is no chance of turning back and returning to
> the past for Gollum. His friends, relatives, and lands are all long gone.
Any time Tolkien presents a moral choice, I think it's important
to him that the choice is real. There is a real opportunity here
for Gollum to change and do the right thing. The same applies
to Denethor. There are quite a few tragic characters in LOTR.
Several of them make the right choice and are redeemed; Gollum
and Denethor do not.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Jette Goldie
> "Luminaria" <lan...@rcn.DOTcom> wrote
> > "Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote
> > > Luminaria wrote:
> > > >Well, Bilbo certainly started to age rapidly once he gave up the Ring
> to
> > > >Frodo.
> > >
> > > Really? Where do you get that?
> > >
> > > To me Bilbo seemed to be the same hobbit, not noticeably older when
> > > Frodo meets him again in Rivendell after 18 years. By contrast, he
> > > was much older and more feeble, almost gaga, just a year later after
> > > the Ring had actually been destroyed.
> >
> > He was described as noticably weaker, tended to fall asleep all the
time.
> > Seemed much more frail. Either aging or he was having problems with the
> > Elven water....
>
> Frodo meets Bilbo in Rivendell _before_ the War of the Ring (this is the
18
> years later, 18 years after Bilbo left the Shire), and Bilbo appears to
have
> been asleep:
>
> " 'Wake up indeed!' [Bilbo] said, cocking an eye at Elrond. There was a
> bright twinkle in it and no sign of sleepiness that Frodo could see. 'Wake
> up! I was not asleep, Master Elrond.' " (Many Meetings, FotR).
>
Yeah, my Gran used to do that too - deny having been asleep when
we'd all heard her snoring. Her eye was quite bright and twinkling
too when she actually *was* awake. She could go from one state
to the other quite quickly.
But she was just an 80 year old Human, not a Hobbit of well over
a century. (she made 86, btw)
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Stan Brown
>Stan, if you are reading this, I was looking at your FAQ page and
>trying to find the references to see if you included the Arwen quote to
>illustrate the effect of the Ring's destruction, but I don't have the
>correct editions of the books.
Which Arwen quote are you thinking of?
Christopher Kreuzer
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> >Stan, if you are reading this, I was looking at your FAQ page and
> >trying to find the references to see if you included the Arwen quote to
> >illustrate the effect of the Ring's destruction, but I don't have the
> >correct editions of the books.
>
> Which Arwen quote are you thinking of?
It was a quote that I used in a post in another subthread of this thread, in
which I summarized what I could find about Bilbo in LotR after he leaves the
Shire, with a focus on his ageing. Do you think any of these points would
help with your FAQ?
Incidentially, is there any text that shows any ageing effect on Frodo after
the destruction of the Ring? He did carry it for 18 years didn't he?
[BEGIN QUOTE]
Frodo meets Bilbo in Rivendell _before_ the War of the Ring (this is the 18
years later, 18 years after Bilbo left the Shire), and Bilbo appears to have
been asleep:
" 'Wake up indeed!' [Bilbo] said, cocking an eye at Elrond. There was a
bright twinkle in it and no sign of sleepiness that Frodo could see. 'Wake
up! I was not asleep, Master Elrond.' " (Many Meetings, FotR).
In fact, Bilbo says he has been sitting and thinking about his recitation of
his
song of Earendil. A long song that he performed that evening. He then stayed
up long into the night talking with Frodo. Hardly frail. He is described as
older, but that would be the 18 years.
Compare this with what Arwen says to Frodo following her wedding to Aragorn
_after_ the War of the Ring, when Frodo mentions Bilbo's absence from the
celebrations:
" 'Do you wonder at that Ring-bearer?' said Arwen. 'For you know the power
of that thing which is now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is
now passing away. But your kinsman possessed this thing longer than you. He
is ancient in years now, according to his kind; and he awaits you, for he
will not again make any long journey save one.' " (Many Partings, RotK).
And later in the chapter when they arrive at Rivendell, Bilbo "looked very
old, but peaceful and sleepy" and he often fell asleep. He also loses the
thread of conversations and falls asleep again several times over the next
few pages. Bilbo himself says "I am getting so sleepy."
Bilbo only has one line in the Grey Havens chapter, so we can't really see
any further developments in his ageing, but he does seem to be nodding in
his sleep on his pony.
[END QUOTE]
Stan Brown
>Do you think any of these points would help with your FAQ?
>Compare this with what Arwen says to Frodo following her wedding to Aragorn
>_after_ the War of the Ring, when Frodo mentions Bilbo's absence from the
>celebrations:
>
>" 'Do you wonder at that Ring-bearer?' said Arwen. 'For you know the power
>of that thing which is now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is
>now passing away. But your kinsman possessed this thing longer than you. He
>is ancient in years now, according to his kind; and he awaits you, for he
>will not again make any long journey save one.' " (Many Partings, RotK).
Yes, I do think that one is persuasive. I'll add it. Thanks!
Luminaria
> "Luminaria" <lan...@rcn.DOTcom> wrote
>
> > I think we agree way more than you think...
>
> Maybe. This is the quote that started off this thread.
>
> ...........................
> Luminaria wrote:
> >Well, Bilbo certainly started to age rapidly once he gave up the Ring to
> >Frodo.
> ............................
>
> Stan Brown questioned that and I leapt into the discussion on his side.
>
> The distinction that is being made here is between two periods of ageing
>
> (1) The 18 years between Bilbo giving up the Ring to Frodo and Frodo
> arriving in Rivendell pursued by Black Riders.
>
> and:
>
> (2) The 1 year between Frodo leaving Rivendell on the Quest of the Ring
and
> Frodo returning to Rivendell, having destroyed the Ring in that year.
>
> I think we all agree that Bilbo ages during both time spans. It is the
rate
> of ageing that is in question. The *rapid* ageing (2) does not begin until
> the Ring is destroyed. The rate of ageing in (1) is more open to debate,
but
> it would be logical for it to be low, otherwise Gollum would not have
> survived for the 80 years he did after losing the Ring to Bilbo.
I understand your point, Christopher. I really do. However, I dispute that
Bilbo did not show signs of advanced age when Frodo encountered him at
Rivendale. Postulating that losing the Ring does not immediately snap you
back to your literal actual age, since Gollum does not end up as a dusty
pile of bones, but seeing some changes occur, we can then see that once the
Ring passes to another, one begins to age. The rate once it is destroyed is
obviously significantly faster. It's unclear why, though. The ringbearers
were controlled by it, but their essence was not put into it in the same way
Sauron's was. Their life is not tied to the Ring. Their sanity, perhaps,
but not their lifeforce, or they all would have died when the Ring was
destroyed. Yet, it obviously has the effect of perserving their lives. Is
this in inherent effect of the Ring, or is it something that the Ring does
to assist itself in getting back to it's master? We don't know. In any
event, aging begins again once the Ring is lost. Bilbo is over 100 years
old, but appeard to be about 60 or so, which is apparently middle aged for a
hobbit, who is still considered a "boy" until he's in his mid-30's, as I
recall. So, snapping back into the aging process, Bilbo is near 80 when he
meets up again with Frodo at Rivendell. He's getting elderly. He's slowing
down. He's nodding off. He appears ill in the chair when Frodo first sees
him, and despite his claims to the contrary, appears to be sleeping. (heck,
I've done that myself - nope! I didn't nod off during the U2 laser light
show, nope, I didn't!! I was, ah... thinking!) He wakes up readily enough,
but that's not abnormal either. Many times I've been on-call and dozing, and
within seconds of my phone shrilling its horrible noise in my ear, wide
awake enough to have a completely coherant conversation. And I'm nowhere
near "elderly". As for his non-attendance at banquets - lets not forget
Bilbo's a hobbit. A hobbit forgo a feast? When is a hobbit EVER not in the
mood for a meal? And this feast in particular, welcoming his beloved nephew,
whom he hasn't seen in nearly 20 years??? I can't imagine that wild horses
could drag Bilbo away from such a thing - unless he was getting a bit frail.
Now, I'm not saying that he was anywhere near as aged as he was after the
Ring was destroyed. The aging is clearly accelerated when we see him at the
Grey Havens. But, having worked for many years with the elderly, Bilbo does
show many traits of aging when seen again at Rivendell. Not
super-accelerated aging, but he's slowing down, he's more tired all the
time, and what really does it for me is seeing a hobbit who doesn't have an
appetite.
>
> Stan quoted his FAQ page at some point. That covers this point (E12 I
> think).
I have no idea what you're talking about. I've never read Stan's FAQ. If
you're going to refer to it, could you link to it?
Lis
Christopher Kreuzer
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
> > The distinction that is being made here is between two periods of ageing
> >
> > (1) The 18 years between Bilbo giving up the Ring to Frodo and Frodo
> > arriving in Rivendell pursued by Black Riders.
> >
> > and:
> >
> > (2) The 1 year between Frodo leaving Rivendell on the Quest of the
> > Ring and Frodo returning to Rivendell, having destroyed the Ring in
> > that year.
> >
> > I think we all agree that Bilbo ages during both time spans. It is the
> > rate of ageing that is in question.
> I understand your point, Christopher. I really do.
OK. I hope I wasn't too pushy with my argument!
> However, I dispute that
> Bilbo did not show signs of advanced age when Frodo encountered him at
> Rivendale. Postulating that losing the Ring does not immediately snap you
> back to your literal actual age, since Gollum does not end up as a dusty
> pile of bones, but seeing some changes occur, we can then see that once
the
> Ring passes to another, one begins to age.
I now agree with your posistion that Bilbo does show some signs of age when
we see him in Rivendell with Frodo the first time. I still think the
evidence is a bit ambiguous, particularly as there is also evidence that he
still has much strength and energy (reading long poems and talking late into
the night).
One key point is the survival of Gollum without the Ring, which seems to
suggest that Bilbo should not change too much. On the other hand, Gollum was
*much* more 'attached' to the ring, so that could explain that.
What is really needed is to consider whether that behaviour would have been
normal for the Bilbo we meet in the Shire at his birthday, also remembering
that that part of the tale was originally written before Tolkien knew what
the Ring was. He then rewrote that part, but may have not been entirely
consistent.
As you said earlier, Bilbo did indeed help Gandalf and the dwarves unload
the fireworks, but this is hardly conclusive. He may have just pottered
around. He did attend a feast here, but he had to, it was his birthday!
Bilbo says to Gandalf, just before Bilbo leaves:
"I am old Gandalf, I don't look it, but I am beginning to feel it in my
heart of hearts. _Well-preserved_ indeed!" he snorted. "Why, I feel all
thin, sort of _stretched_, if you know what I mean: like butter that has
been scraped over too much bread. That can't be right. I need a change or
something."
Presumably that feeling is lost, whether gradually or instantly, when Bilbo
gives up the Ring. In the intervening 18 years, Bilbo does journey to
Rivendell, and on to Dale, and does scholarly work in Rivendell translating
Elvish lore.
I would agree that Bilbo and Gollum react differently to not having the
Ring. Gollum lost it, and Bilbo gave it up. Gollum tries to get it back,
Bilbo (mostly) does not. We are told (can't remember the exact quote) that
this "willingly giving it up" meant that Bilbo suffered less than Gollum
did. It does make sense then to have Bilbo age slightly after losing the
Ring. I would now agree with you that Bilbo (when we see him in Rivendell
with Frodo for the first time) has aged by an unknown amount and would not
have lasted as long as Gollum did after losing the Ring.
Finally, I think we agree!
> > Stan quoted his FAQ page at some point. That covers this point (E12 I
> > think).
>
> I have no idea what you're talking about. I've never read Stan's FAQ. If
> you're going to refer to it, could you link to it?
http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#1-GollumDie
Stan Brown
>since Gollum does not end up as a dusty
>pile of bones, but seeing some changes occur, we can then see that once the
>Ring passes to another, one begins to age
According to your theory the Gollum of The LR should be 80 years
older than the Gollum of the Hobbit -- or if not full 80 years then
some significant fraction of it, since according to you Bilbo showed
significant aging in less than a quarter of that span.
"I don't think so, Tim." Gollum seemed as robust as Sam and Frodo,
more so in fact since it took both of them to subdue him physically.
In fact, Gollum's continued robustness argues pretty strongly
against your theory, as does Gandalf's saying that Bilbo would just
"stop as he was" after giving up the Ring.
> He's slowing
>down. He's nodding off. He appears ill in the chair when Frodo first sees
>him, and despite his claims to the contrary, appears to be sleeping. (heck,
>I've done that myself - nope! I didn't nod off during the U2 laser light
>show, nope, I didn't!! I was, ah... thinking!)
Don't you see that this experience of yours refutes your claim that
Bilbo was showing "significant signs of aging"? Falling asleep -- if
he even was asleep, which is not necessarily true -- simply means he
was tired. Perhaps he had been up all night the night before tending
Frodo, or listening to the singing, or whatever. New parents in
their 20s fall asleep whenever they possibly can, because the baby
won't let them sleep through the night. These are not signs of being
elderly and feeble; they're signs of not having had enough sleep.
>I've never read Stan's FAQ. If
>you're going to refer to it, could you link to it?
It's in the signature of virtually every article I post in this
newsgroup. Of course it also pops up in Google as the very first hit
for "FAQ of the Rings". :-)
ste...@nomail.com
: In article <3ff65ff0$0$6762$61fe...@news.rcn.com> in
:>since Gollum does not end up as a dusty
:>pile of bones, but seeing some changes occur, we can then see that once the
:>Ring passes to another, one begins to age
: According to your theory the Gollum of The LR should be 80 years
: older than the Gollum of the Hobbit -- or if not full 80 years then
: some significant fraction of it, since according to you Bilbo showed
: significant aging in less than a quarter of that span.
: "I don't think so, Tim." Gollum seemed as robust as Sam and Frodo,
: more so in fact since it took both of them to subdue him physically.
: In fact, Gollum's continued robustness argues pretty strongly
: against your theory, as does Gandalf's saying that Bilbo would just
: "stop as he was" after giving up the Ring.
Gandalf also says of Gollum
"You see, though still bound by desire of it, the Ring was
no longer devouring him; he began to reviv a little. He felt
old, terribly old, yet less timid, and he was mortally hungry."
After losing the Ring, Gollum feels old. Apparently he did not feel
terribly old while possessing the Ring, but did so afterwards.
It stands to reason that Bilbo would have experienced something similar,
just not so extreme.
Stephen