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Re: Loki
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Taemon
May 6, 2012, 2:32:20 PM5/6/12
to
Raven wrote:
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> skrev i meddelelsen
> news:4fa6a992$0$10599$bf49...@news.tele2.nl...
>
>> Fired up by the Avengers movie (which I found mediocre, although
>> enjoyable) my love for Northern mythology has been rekindled, and
>> especially the figure of Loki, who has been my favourite god from the
>> moment I first learned of him. Or her. You know, with the horse.
>> I would like to learn more. Can anyone here point me in the
>> direction of some good studies on Norse mythologies? And I don't
>> mean a collection of the stories per se - I have read most of them.
>> The local online bookstore (yes, there is such a thing as a local
>> online store) has plenty of books on the subject, but without much
>> of a description or abstract to them, so I wouldn't know what to
>> choose.
> One flippant retelling of the old stories is the Danish Valhalla
> comics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla_(comics) . But that is
> perhaps not quite what you had in mind. :-)
Nnnnoo... but I wouldn't mind reading them :-) No idea where to find such a
thing, though.
I've seen pictures of those. Remember the story in which Mjolnir has been
stolen and Thor and Loki dress as women to get it back? Well, Loki really
rocks those platform heels :-)
> Raafje.
That never stops being cute!
T
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> skrev i meddelelsen
> news:4fa6a992$0$10599$bf49...@news.tele2.nl...
>
>> Fired up by the Avengers movie (which I found mediocre, although
>> enjoyable) my love for Northern mythology has been rekindled, and
>> especially the figure of Loki, who has been my favourite god from the
>> moment I first learned of him. Or her. You know, with the horse.
>> I would like to learn more. Can anyone here point me in the
>> direction of some good studies on Norse mythologies? And I don't
>> mean a collection of the stories per se - I have read most of them.
>> The local online bookstore (yes, there is such a thing as a local
>> online store) has plenty of books on the subject, but without much
>> of a description or abstract to them, so I wouldn't know what to
>> choose.
> One flippant retelling of the old stories is the Danish Valhalla
> comics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla_(comics) . But that is
> perhaps not quite what you had in mind. :-)
Nnnnoo... but I wouldn't mind reading them :-) No idea where to find such a
thing, though.
I've seen pictures of those. Remember the story in which Mjolnir has been
stolen and Thor and Loki dress as women to get it back? Well, Loki really
rocks those platform heels :-)
> Raafje.
That never stops being cute!
T
TT Arvind
May 6, 2012, 4:18:13 PM5/6/12
to
"Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
>
> I've seen pictures of those. Remember the story in which Mjolnir has been
> stolen and Thor and Loki dress as women to get it back? Well, Loki really
> rocks those platform heels :-)
If you like Loki as a character, I recommend finding a good translation of
>
> I've seen pictures of those. Remember the story in which Mjolnir has been
> stolen and Thor and Loki dress as women to get it back? Well, Loki really
> rocks those platform heels :-)
Lokasenna in Dutch. It's one of the poems of the Elder Edda, and describes
Loki at his caustic best, insulting each of the other Aesir in turn at a
feast to which he turns up uninvited, some time after Baldur's death.
English translations simply don't capture the feel of the text, but I've
heard good things about Marcel Otten's Dutch translations of the poetic
Edda.
--
Arvind
Message has been deleted
Taemon
May 7, 2012, 11:57:41 AM5/7/12
to
> news:4fa6c3ae$0$28040$bf49...@news.tele2.nl...
> humanoid handmaiden or a very seductive mare...
He really does! :-) It's part of why I like him so much. He is so... fluid.
He can be anything. And then it turns out he is actually something else.
T.
>> I've seen pictures of those. Remember the story in which Mjolnir has
>> been stolen and Thor and Loki dress as women to get it back? Well,
>> Loki really rocks those platform heels :-)
> Loke really rocks as a tranny, doesn't he? :-) Whether as a
>> been stolen and Thor and Loki dress as women to get it back? Well,
>> Loki really rocks those platform heels :-)
> humanoid handmaiden or a very seductive mare...
He really does! :-) It's part of why I like him so much. He is so... fluid.
He can be anything. And then it turns out he is actually something else.
T.
kristi...@gmail.com
May 7, 2012, 3:40:57 PM5/7/12
to
On May 6, 8:32 pm, "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
> Raven wrote:
> > "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> skrev i meddelelsen
> >news:4fa6a992$0$10599$bf49...@news.tele2.nl...
>
> >> Fired up by the Avengers movie (which I found mediocre, although
> >> enjoyable) my love for Northern mythology has been rekindled, and
> >> especially the figure of Loki, who has been my favourite god from the
> >> moment I first learned of him. Or her. You know, with the horse.
> >> I would like to learn more. Can anyone here point me in the
> >> direction of some good studies on Norse mythologies? And I don't
> >> mean a collection of the stories per se - I have read most of them.
> >> The local online bookstore (yes, there is such a thing as a local
> >> online store) has plenty of books on the subject, but without much
> >> of a description or abstract to them, so I wouldn't know what to
> >> choose.
> > One flippant retelling of the old stories is the Danish Valhalla
> > comics:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla_(comics) . But that is
> > perhaps not quite what you had in mind. :-)
>
> Nnnnoo... but I wouldn't mind reading them :-) No idea where to find such a
> thing, though.
It has recently been re-issued in hardback:
> Raven wrote:
> > "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> skrev i meddelelsen
> >news:4fa6a992$0$10599$bf49...@news.tele2.nl...
>
> >> Fired up by the Avengers movie (which I found mediocre, although
> >> enjoyable) my love for Northern mythology has been rekindled, and
> >> especially the figure of Loki, who has been my favourite god from the
> >> moment I first learned of him. Or her. You know, with the horse.
> >> I would like to learn more. Can anyone here point me in the
> >> direction of some good studies on Norse mythologies? And I don't
> >> mean a collection of the stories per se - I have read most of them.
> >> The local online bookstore (yes, there is such a thing as a local
> >> online store) has plenty of books on the subject, but without much
> >> of a description or abstract to them, so I wouldn't know what to
> >> choose.
> > One flippant retelling of the old stories is the Danish Valhalla
> > comics:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla_(comics) . But that is
> > perhaps not quite what you had in mind. :-)
>
> Nnnnoo... but I wouldn't mind reading them :-) No idea where to find such a
> thing, though.
http://www.saxo.com/dk/soeg/boeger?keyword=valhalla+den+samlede+saga&x=0&y=0
One of the greatest deficiencies of my comic collection. Right next to
my incomplete Gary Larsson collection.
Mike Scott Rohan
May 7, 2012, 6:06:16 PM5/7/12
to
Cheers,
Mike
Taemon
May 8, 2012, 1:27:10 PM5/8/12
to
kristi...@gmail.com wrote:
> It has recently been re-issued in hardback:
> http://www.saxo.com/dk/soeg/boeger?keyword=valhalla+den+samlede+saga&x=0&y=0
I saw, yes. I dropped a mail on the site of the artist - maybe they can tell
> It has recently been re-issued in hardback:
> http://www.saxo.com/dk/soeg/boeger?keyword=valhalla+den+samlede+saga&x=0&y=0
me where to buy them. I'm limited to Dutch and English, that doesn't help
either :-( Do you think someone who sort of could read German could also
read Danish?
T.
Troels Forchhammer
May 8, 2012, 1:54:08 PM5/8/12
to
In message <news:4fa95767$0$12367$bf49...@news.tele2.nl>
"Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> spoke these staves:
I've found that reading Danish, English and sort of reading German
makes it possible to understand (well, sort of -- most of it, anyway)
written Dutch, so I guess there's a good chance that it works the other
way around as well ;-)
I mean, cauliflower is _bloemkohl_ (IIRC) in Dutch and _blomkål_ in
Danish, and good day is _goddag_ in Danish -- just a couple of 'e's
from the Dutch . . .
The author's web-site has some sample pages from each album in Danish
-- perhaps trying your hand on a few of these will be the best test for
you.
Example:
http://www.petermadsen.info/pages/vh/vh2/valhalla2-side42.html
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are
subtle and quick to anger.
- Gildor Inglorion, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
"Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> spoke these staves:
makes it possible to understand (well, sort of -- most of it, anyway)
written Dutch, so I guess there's a good chance that it works the other
way around as well ;-)
I mean, cauliflower is _bloemkohl_ (IIRC) in Dutch and _blomkål_ in
Danish, and good day is _goddag_ in Danish -- just a couple of 'e's
from the Dutch . . .
The author's web-site has some sample pages from each album in Danish
-- perhaps trying your hand on a few of these will be the best test for
you.
Example:
http://www.petermadsen.info/pages/vh/vh2/valhalla2-side42.html
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are
subtle and quick to anger.
- Gildor Inglorion, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Taemon
May 8, 2012, 3:08:19 PM5/8/12
to
Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message <news:4fa95767$0$12367$bf49...@news.tele2.nl>
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> spoke these staves:
>> kristi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> It has recently been re-issued in hardback:
>>> http://www.saxo.com/dk/soeg/boeger?keyword=valhalla+den+samlede+sa
>>> ga&x= 0&y=0
>> I saw, yes. I dropped a mail on the site of the artist - maybe
>> they can tell me where to buy them. I'm limited to Dutch and
>> English, that doesn't help either :-( Do you think someone who
>> sort of could read German could also read Danish?
> I've found that reading Danish, English and sort of reading German
> makes it possible to understand (well, sort of -- most of it, anyway)
> written Dutch, so I guess there's a good chance that it works the
> other way around as well ;-)
They're all quite alike, aren't they? Unfortunately, my German is mediocre
> In message <news:4fa95767$0$12367$bf49...@news.tele2.nl>
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> spoke these staves:
>> kristi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> It has recently been re-issued in hardback:
>>> http://www.saxo.com/dk/soeg/boeger?keyword=valhalla+den+samlede+sa
>>> ga&x= 0&y=0
>> I saw, yes. I dropped a mail on the site of the artist - maybe
>> they can tell me where to buy them. I'm limited to Dutch and
>> English, that doesn't help either :-( Do you think someone who
>> sort of could read German could also read Danish?
> I've found that reading Danish, English and sort of reading German
> makes it possible to understand (well, sort of -- most of it, anyway)
> written Dutch, so I guess there's a good chance that it works the
> other way around as well ;-)
at best. I need a dictionary to read all but the most simple German text.
Then again... with a Danish dictionary (which I certainly could easily find)
Danish shouldn't be much harder than German. Ha, it'd be quite an
undertaking!
> I mean, cauliflower is _bloemkohl_ (IIRC) in Dutch
> and _blomkål_ in
> Danish, and good day is _goddag_ in Danish -- just a couple of 'e's
> from the Dutch . . .
> The author's web-site has some sample pages from each album in Danish
> -- perhaps trying your hand on a few of these will be the best test
> for you.
> http://www.petermadsen.info/pages/vh/vh2/valhalla2-side42.html
Hm, that's not too bad... "Vi er samlet her idag" "We are gathered here
today". It would still be a puzzle. Heh.
And here I though I was about to become a scholar of Loki... seems like I
need to learn Danish first. I'm sure knowing the word for bloemkool will be
a great help in learning to understand Loki, though.
T.
TT Arvind
May 8, 2012, 4:39:08 PM5/8/12
to
"Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
> I'm sure knowing the word for bloemkool will be
> a great help in learning to understand Loki, though.
You could always write an alternate version of the myths where Baldur is
> I'm sure knowing the word for bloemkool will be
> a great help in learning to understand Loki, though.
killed by having a cauliflower thrown at him.
--
Arvind
Sandman
May 9, 2012, 4:26:07 AM5/9/12
to
In article <XnsA04DCA75...@130.133.4.11>,
considered almost dialects to the rest of the world, but while I can
fully understand most Norwegians, Danish people speak as if they're
not only trying to pronounce "blomkål", they have the mouth full if it
as well!
When in Denmark, I tell them to speak English :)
--
Sandman[.net]
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> In message <news:4fa95767$0$12367$bf49...@news.tele2.nl>
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> spoke these staves:
> >
> > kristi...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> It has recently been re-issued in hardback:
> >> http://www.saxo.com/dk/soeg/boeger?keyword=valhalla+den+samlede+sa
> >> ga&x= 0&y=0
> >
> > I saw, yes. I dropped a mail on the site of the artist - maybe
> > they can tell me where to buy them. I'm limited to Dutch and
> > English, that doesn't help either :-( Do you think someone who
> > sort of could read German could also read Danish?
>
> I've found that reading Danish, English and sort of reading German
> makes it possible to understand (well, sort of -- most of it, anyway)
> written Dutch, so I guess there's a good chance that it works the other
> way around as well ;-)
>
> I mean, cauliflower is _bloemkohl_ (IIRC) in Dutch and _blomkål_ in
> Danish, and good day is _goddag_ in Danish -- just a couple of 'e's
> from the Dutch . . .
Danish is a mess. I'm from Sweden and Swedish, Norwegian and Danish is
> In message <news:4fa95767$0$12367$bf49...@news.tele2.nl>
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> spoke these staves:
> >
> > kristi...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> It has recently been re-issued in hardback:
> >> http://www.saxo.com/dk/soeg/boeger?keyword=valhalla+den+samlede+sa
> >> ga&x= 0&y=0
> >
> > I saw, yes. I dropped a mail on the site of the artist - maybe
> > they can tell me where to buy them. I'm limited to Dutch and
> > English, that doesn't help either :-( Do you think someone who
> > sort of could read German could also read Danish?
>
> I've found that reading Danish, English and sort of reading German
> makes it possible to understand (well, sort of -- most of it, anyway)
> written Dutch, so I guess there's a good chance that it works the other
> way around as well ;-)
>
> I mean, cauliflower is _bloemkohl_ (IIRC) in Dutch and _blomkål_ in
> Danish, and good day is _goddag_ in Danish -- just a couple of 'e's
> from the Dutch . . .
considered almost dialects to the rest of the world, but while I can
fully understand most Norwegians, Danish people speak as if they're
not only trying to pronounce "blomkål", they have the mouth full if it
as well!
When in Denmark, I tell them to speak English :)
--
Sandman[.net]
kristi...@gmail.com
May 9, 2012, 4:00:59 PM5/9/12
to
On May 9, 10:26 am, Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
> In article <XnsA04DCA756772BT.Fo...@130.133.4.11>,
different things. While I can make sense of most Norwegian and Swedish
texts, I feel the same way you do about talking to roughly half the
Swedes I know. It depends on the dialect. The same goes for
Norwegians.
Oh, and I'll admit that most Danes does have a very sloppy
pronunciation.
> In article <XnsA04DCA756772BT.Fo...@130.133.4.11>,
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In message <news:4fa95767$0$12367$bf49...@news.tele2.nl>
> > "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> spoke these staves:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In message <news:4fa95767$0$12367$bf49...@news.tele2.nl>
> > "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> spoke these staves:
>
> > > kristiand...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > >> It has recently been re-issued in hardback:
> > >>http://www.saxo.com/dk/soeg/boeger?keyword=valhalla+den+samlede+sa
> > >> ga&x= 0&y=0
>
> > > I saw, yes. I dropped a mail on the site of the artist - maybe
> > > they can tell me where to buy them. I'm limited to Dutch and
> > > English, that doesn't help either :-( Do you think someone who
> > > sort of could read German could also read Danish?
>
> > I've found that reading Danish, English and sort of reading German
> > makes it possible to understand (well, sort of -- most of it, anyway)
> > written Dutch, so I guess there's a good chance that it works the other
> > way around as well ;-)
>
> > I mean, cauliflower is _bloemkohl_ (IIRC) in Dutch and _blomkål_ in
> > Danish, and good day is _goddag_ in Danish -- just a couple of 'e's
> > from the Dutch . . .
>
> Danish is a mess. I'm from Sweden and Swedish, Norwegian and Danish is
> considered almost dialects to the rest of the world, but while I can
> fully understand most Norwegians, Danish people speak as if they're
> not only trying to pronounce "blomkål", they have the mouth full if it
> as well!
>
> When in Denmark, I tell them to speak English :)
>
Understanding the spoken language and reading the written is two quite
>
> > >> It has recently been re-issued in hardback:
> > >>http://www.saxo.com/dk/soeg/boeger?keyword=valhalla+den+samlede+sa
> > >> ga&x= 0&y=0
>
> > > I saw, yes. I dropped a mail on the site of the artist - maybe
> > > they can tell me where to buy them. I'm limited to Dutch and
> > > English, that doesn't help either :-( Do you think someone who
> > > sort of could read German could also read Danish?
>
> > I've found that reading Danish, English and sort of reading German
> > makes it possible to understand (well, sort of -- most of it, anyway)
> > written Dutch, so I guess there's a good chance that it works the other
> > way around as well ;-)
>
> > I mean, cauliflower is _bloemkohl_ (IIRC) in Dutch and _blomkål_ in
> > Danish, and good day is _goddag_ in Danish -- just a couple of 'e's
> > from the Dutch . . .
>
> Danish is a mess. I'm from Sweden and Swedish, Norwegian and Danish is
> considered almost dialects to the rest of the world, but while I can
> fully understand most Norwegians, Danish people speak as if they're
> not only trying to pronounce "blomkål", they have the mouth full if it
> as well!
>
> When in Denmark, I tell them to speak English :)
>
different things. While I can make sense of most Norwegian and Swedish
texts, I feel the same way you do about talking to roughly half the
Swedes I know. It depends on the dialect. The same goes for
Norwegians.
Oh, and I'll admit that most Danes does have a very sloppy
pronunciation.
Troels Forchhammer
May 10, 2012, 4:25:26 PM5/10/12
to
In message <news:mr-7835CB.10...@News.Individual.NET>
Sandman <m...@sandman.net> spoke these staves:
Actually Swedish and Danish are, linguistically speaking, closer
relatives than either is to Norwegian (which ought to look and sound
more like Icelandic and Faroese) -- it is just that between us we
have (through our thoroughly colonialist / imperialist approach to
the Norwegians) managed to mess up Norwegian to the point that it
normally sounds and looks like a mix of Danish and Swedish :-)
Unfortunately the situation you describe is how many percieve it --
and these days it is even true of many young people who live close by
Sweden, but I think there is still hope.
Most Danes born before ca. 1980 who have lived where they could
receive Swedish television can normally understand written Swedish
quite well, and will be able to understand spoken Swedish if they
make just a small effort (and the Swede is willing to slow down a
bit).
On the other hand, I have always found that if the people on both
sides are willing to make an effort, understanding is much better
when we speak Swedish and Danish than when we resort to try English
(which most Danes and Swedes, while reasonably proficient for a non-
native language, are no-where near as proficient at as we tend to
believe). There has always (at least while I have worked there) been
many Swedes working at Nokia in Copenhagen, and excepting the
specific mobile industry terms (which are invariably in English and
used in that language everywhere) understanding is always better when
we just speak each our native tongue (well, that is -- unless it is
someone speaking the old Scanian dialect, i.e. not just the accent,
but it's my understanding that most Swedes find the Scanian dialect
incomprehensible as well).
So, to my eyes the problem, in Denmark, seems rather to be that
people can't be bothered to actually make an effort (and have an
overrated opinion of their own proficiency at English, which is seen
as more prestigious). I cannot say if the same is true in Sweden,
but based on the encounters that I have had with Swedes, I'd say that
there need not be a problem at all if we just make an effort.
Oh -- and I'm sorry if I come across as preaching: my own kids are
thoroughly fed up with hearing their father go on about how they can
easily understand Swedish if they just make an effort, but it our
common Scandinavian heritage is something that I do feel is important
:-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.
But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another
profound truth.
- Niels Bohr
Sandman <m...@sandman.net> spoke these staves:
relatives than either is to Norwegian (which ought to look and sound
more like Icelandic and Faroese) -- it is just that between us we
have (through our thoroughly colonialist / imperialist approach to
the Norwegians) managed to mess up Norwegian to the point that it
normally sounds and looks like a mix of Danish and Swedish :-)
Unfortunately the situation you describe is how many percieve it --
and these days it is even true of many young people who live close by
Sweden, but I think there is still hope.
Most Danes born before ca. 1980 who have lived where they could
receive Swedish television can normally understand written Swedish
quite well, and will be able to understand spoken Swedish if they
make just a small effort (and the Swede is willing to slow down a
bit).
On the other hand, I have always found that if the people on both
sides are willing to make an effort, understanding is much better
when we speak Swedish and Danish than when we resort to try English
(which most Danes and Swedes, while reasonably proficient for a non-
native language, are no-where near as proficient at as we tend to
believe). There has always (at least while I have worked there) been
many Swedes working at Nokia in Copenhagen, and excepting the
specific mobile industry terms (which are invariably in English and
used in that language everywhere) understanding is always better when
we just speak each our native tongue (well, that is -- unless it is
someone speaking the old Scanian dialect, i.e. not just the accent,
but it's my understanding that most Swedes find the Scanian dialect
incomprehensible as well).
So, to my eyes the problem, in Denmark, seems rather to be that
people can't be bothered to actually make an effort (and have an
overrated opinion of their own proficiency at English, which is seen
as more prestigious). I cannot say if the same is true in Sweden,
but based on the encounters that I have had with Swedes, I'd say that
there need not be a problem at all if we just make an effort.
Oh -- and I'm sorry if I come across as preaching: my own kids are
thoroughly fed up with hearing their father go on about how they can
easily understand Swedish if they just make an effort, but it our
common Scandinavian heritage is something that I do feel is important
:-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.
But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another
profound truth.
- Niels Bohr
Julian Bradfield
May 10, 2012, 4:34:32 PM5/10/12
to
On 2012-05-10, Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> Oh -- and I'm sorry if I come across as preaching: my own kids are
> thoroughly fed up with hearing their father go on about how they can
> easily understand Swedish if they just make an effort, but it our
That way round is easy...mapping heard Swedish on to the written
> Oh -- and I'm sorry if I come across as preaching: my own kids are
> thoroughly fed up with hearing their father go on about how they can
> easily understand Swedish if they just make an effort, but it our
language is fairly easy, and then the differences are small. The
trouble for the poor Swedes (and the rest of the world) is that
mapping heard Danish on to the written language is even harder than
doing it with English, because of the extensive sound changes in
spoken Danish.
Though Swedish has its problems...Danish has about four vowels that
all sound like "eh" to English, whereas Swedish has four vowels that
all sound like "ew" :-) But at least the Swedes pronounce most of the
consonants.
Troels Forchhammer
May 12, 2012, 11:51:41 AM5/12/12
to
In message <news:slrnjqo9i...@krk.inf.ed.ac.uk>
Julian Bradfield <j...@inf.ed.ac.uk> spoke these staves:
has much influence on how well we understand the spoken language. Few
Danes have any idea how Swedish is spelled and vice versa, so the
mapping of the sounds to the spelling is, I would say, at best of very
little practical use when speaking with each other.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided
into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from,
and (d) rocks.
- /Equal Rites/ (Terry Pratchett)
Julian Bradfield <j...@inf.ed.ac.uk> spoke these staves:
>
> On 2012-05-10, Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid>
> wrote:
>>
>> Oh -- and I'm sorry if I come across as preaching: my own kids
>> are thoroughly fed up with hearing their father go on about how
>> they can easily understand Swedish if they just make an effort,
>
> On 2012-05-10, Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid>
> wrote:
>>
>> Oh -- and I'm sorry if I come across as preaching: my own kids
>> are thoroughly fed up with hearing their father go on about how
>> they can easily understand Swedish if they just make an effort,
>
> That way round is easy...mapping heard Swedish on to the written
> language is fairly easy, and then the differences are small.
While I'm sure your description is entirely correct, I doubt that it
> language is fairly easy, and then the differences are small.
has much influence on how well we understand the spoken language. Few
Danes have any idea how Swedish is spelled and vice versa, so the
mapping of the sounds to the spelling is, I would say, at best of very
little practical use when speaking with each other.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from,
and (d) rocks.
- /Equal Rites/ (Terry Pratchett)
Sandman
May 14, 2012, 4:36:55 AM5/14/12
to
In article <XnsA04FE41B...@130.133.4.11>,
Well, since both denmark and Norway *was* sweden back in the days, the
linguistic inheritance lines are muddy to say the least.
> Unfortunately the situation you describe is how many percieve it --
> and these days it is even true of many young people who live close by
> Sweden, but I think there is still hope.
>
> Most Danes born before ca. 1980 who have lived where they could
> receive Swedish television can normally understand written Swedish
> quite well, and will be able to understand spoken Swedish if they
> make just a small effort (and the Swede is willing to slow down a
> bit).
While this may be true - no Swedes, or at least most Swedes, do not
get exposed to Danish through the media in any way. I think if you
live in Malmö, you can get Danish TV3, but I have a hard time seeing
anyone watching it :)
> On the other hand, I have always found that if the people on both
> sides are willing to make an effort, understanding is much better
> when we speak Swedish and Danish than when we resort to try English
> (which most Danes and Swedes, while reasonably proficient for a non-
> native language, are no-where near as proficient at as we tend to
> believe).
Can't say about the danes, but having worked with lots of american
people, I get told a lot that Swedes are generally good at English
> So, to my eyes the problem, in Denmark, seems rather to be that
> people can't be bothered to actually make an effort (and have an
> overrated opinion of their own proficiency at English, which is seen
> as more prestigious). I cannot say if the same is true in Sweden,
> but based on the encounters that I have had with Swedes, I'd say that
> there need not be a problem at all if we just make an effort.
Maybe it's just me that is reluctant to make an effort then :-D
> Oh -- and I'm sorry if I come across as preaching: my own kids are
> thoroughly fed up with hearing their father go on about how they can
> easily understand Swedish if they just make an effort, but it our
> common Scandinavian heritage is something that I do feel is important
> :-)
Well, I do too, actually :)
--
Sandman[.net]
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> >> I mean, cauliflower is _bloemkohl_ (IIRC) in Dutch and _blomkål_
> >> in Danish, and good day is _goddag_ in Danish -- just a couple of
> >> 'e's from the Dutch . . .
> >
> > Danish is a mess. I'm from Sweden and Swedish, Norwegian and
> > Danish is considered almost dialects to the rest of the world, but
> > while I can fully understand most Norwegians, Danish people speak
> > as if they're not only trying to pronounce "blomkål", they have
> > the mouth full if it as well!
> >
> > When in Denmark, I tell them to speak English :)
>
> Actually Swedish and Danish are, linguistically speaking, closer
> relatives than either is to Norwegian (which ought to look and sound
> more like Icelandic and Faroese) -- it is just that between us we
> have (through our thoroughly colonialist / imperialist approach to
> the Norwegians) managed to mess up Norwegian to the point that it
> normally sounds and looks like a mix of Danish and Swedish :-)
Haha :)
> >> I mean, cauliflower is _bloemkohl_ (IIRC) in Dutch and _blomkål_
> >> in Danish, and good day is _goddag_ in Danish -- just a couple of
> >> 'e's from the Dutch . . .
> >
> > Danish is a mess. I'm from Sweden and Swedish, Norwegian and
> > Danish is considered almost dialects to the rest of the world, but
> > while I can fully understand most Norwegians, Danish people speak
> > as if they're not only trying to pronounce "blomkål", they have
> > the mouth full if it as well!
> >
> > When in Denmark, I tell them to speak English :)
>
> Actually Swedish and Danish are, linguistically speaking, closer
> relatives than either is to Norwegian (which ought to look and sound
> more like Icelandic and Faroese) -- it is just that between us we
> have (through our thoroughly colonialist / imperialist approach to
> the Norwegians) managed to mess up Norwegian to the point that it
> normally sounds and looks like a mix of Danish and Swedish :-)
Well, since both denmark and Norway *was* sweden back in the days, the
linguistic inheritance lines are muddy to say the least.
> Unfortunately the situation you describe is how many percieve it --
> and these days it is even true of many young people who live close by
> Sweden, but I think there is still hope.
>
> Most Danes born before ca. 1980 who have lived where they could
> receive Swedish television can normally understand written Swedish
> quite well, and will be able to understand spoken Swedish if they
> make just a small effort (and the Swede is willing to slow down a
> bit).
get exposed to Danish through the media in any way. I think if you
live in Malmö, you can get Danish TV3, but I have a hard time seeing
anyone watching it :)
> On the other hand, I have always found that if the people on both
> sides are willing to make an effort, understanding is much better
> when we speak Swedish and Danish than when we resort to try English
> (which most Danes and Swedes, while reasonably proficient for a non-
> native language, are no-where near as proficient at as we tend to
> believe).
people, I get told a lot that Swedes are generally good at English
> So, to my eyes the problem, in Denmark, seems rather to be that
> people can't be bothered to actually make an effort (and have an
> overrated opinion of their own proficiency at English, which is seen
> as more prestigious). I cannot say if the same is true in Sweden,
> but based on the encounters that I have had with Swedes, I'd say that
> there need not be a problem at all if we just make an effort.
> Oh -- and I'm sorry if I come across as preaching: my own kids are
> thoroughly fed up with hearing their father go on about how they can
> easily understand Swedish if they just make an effort, but it our
> common Scandinavian heritage is something that I do feel is important
> :-)
--
Sandman[.net]
Taemon
May 14, 2012, 12:01:28 PM5/14/12
to
For those interested, look what I found:
http://www.norsemyth.org/
You probably already know it, of course. But for me it's new.
You know what the most frightening thing is I found while surfing for Norse
mythology? There are people who BELIEVE THAT STUFF. It takes all kinds...
T.
http://www.norsemyth.org/
You probably already know it, of course. But for me it's new.
You know what the most frightening thing is I found while surfing for Norse
mythology? There are people who BELIEVE THAT STUFF. It takes all kinds...
T.
Message has been deleted
Sandman
May 15, 2012, 4:23:08 AM5/15/12
to
In article <4fb12c52$0$22400$bf49...@news.tele2.nl>,
Well, I would rather "believe" in norse mythology than christian
religion, if you ask me. It's just more... fun :)
--
Sandman[.net]
religion, if you ask me. It's just more... fun :)
--
Sandman[.net]
Sandman
May 15, 2012, 4:25:57 AM5/15/12
to
In article
<8b2d389a-fc2e-4aa6...@n5g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
emphasizing that I mean nothing derogatory by it, I've always
considered Swedish (and Norwegian) to be a much "clearer" language.
I.e. better articulation and a smoother flow. While some swedish
dialects are as hard to comprehend as Danish, I've still felt that
overall, it was still more comprehensible :)
I may have to rethink that :)
> Oh, and I'll admit that most Danes does have a very sloppy
> pronunciation.
--
Sandman[.net]
<8b2d389a-fc2e-4aa6...@n5g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
"kristi...@gmail.com" <kristi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I mean, cauliflower is _bloemkohl_ (IIRC) in Dutch and _blomkål_ in
> > > Danish, and good day is _goddag_ in Danish -- just a couple of 'e's
> > > from the Dutch . . .
> >
> > Danish is a mess. I'm from Sweden and Swedish, Norwegian and Danish is
> > considered almost dialects to the rest of the world, but while I can
> > fully understand most Norwegians, Danish people speak as if they're
> > not only trying to pronounce "blomkål", they have the mouth full if it
> > as well!
> >
> > When in Denmark, I tell them to speak English :)
>
> Understanding the spoken language and reading the written is two quite
> different things. While I can make sense of most Norwegian and Swedish
> texts, I feel the same way you do about talking to roughly half the
> Swedes I know. It depends on the dialect. The same goes for
> Norwegians.
Huh, that actually comes as somewhat of a surprise to me. While
> > > I mean, cauliflower is _bloemkohl_ (IIRC) in Dutch and _blomkål_ in
> > > Danish, and good day is _goddag_ in Danish -- just a couple of 'e's
> > > from the Dutch . . .
> >
> > Danish is a mess. I'm from Sweden and Swedish, Norwegian and Danish is
> > considered almost dialects to the rest of the world, but while I can
> > fully understand most Norwegians, Danish people speak as if they're
> > not only trying to pronounce "blomkål", they have the mouth full if it
> > as well!
> >
> > When in Denmark, I tell them to speak English :)
>
> Understanding the spoken language and reading the written is two quite
> different things. While I can make sense of most Norwegian and Swedish
> texts, I feel the same way you do about talking to roughly half the
> Swedes I know. It depends on the dialect. The same goes for
> Norwegians.
emphasizing that I mean nothing derogatory by it, I've always
considered Swedish (and Norwegian) to be a much "clearer" language.
I.e. better articulation and a smoother flow. While some swedish
dialects are as hard to comprehend as Danish, I've still felt that
overall, it was still more comprehensible :)
I may have to rethink that :)
> Oh, and I'll admit that most Danes does have a very sloppy
> pronunciation.
Sandman[.net]
Taemon
May 15, 2012, 12:08:47 PM5/15/12
to
> news:4fb12c52$0$22400$bf49...@news.tele2.nl...
> of any religion.
Well, of course. Only, the reason most people believe what they do is
because they were raised in it. I don't think these people were raised with
the Edda. Their children might. They will undoubtedly turn atheist.
> But I have also read that some Asatruirmenn see it
> all as metaphorical, and that the gods are anthropomorfic
> personifications of aspects of human psychology and condition.
Obviously. But not all. What is Asatruirmenn?
> Now if we can get Young Earth Creationists to see Genesis, chapters 1 and
> 2, in the same light...
Or get them to ditch the whole thing and study some science. Well, in time,
in time.
T. <-- optimist.
>> You know what the most frightening thing is I found while surfing for
>> Norse mythology? There are people who BELIEVE THAT STUFF. It takes
>> all kinds...
> If you want to be snarky the same may be said of the origin myths
>> Norse mythology? There are people who BELIEVE THAT STUFF. It takes
>> all kinds...
> of any religion.
Well, of course. Only, the reason most people believe what they do is
because they were raised in it. I don't think these people were raised with
the Edda. Their children might. They will undoubtedly turn atheist.
> But I have also read that some Asatruirmenn see it
> all as metaphorical, and that the gods are anthropomorfic
> personifications of aspects of human psychology and condition.
Obviously. But not all. What is Asatruirmenn?
> Now if we can get Young Earth Creationists to see Genesis, chapters 1 and
> 2, in the same light...
Or get them to ditch the whole thing and study some science. Well, in time,
in time.
T. <-- optimist.
Taemon
May 15, 2012, 12:09:36 PM5/15/12
to
T.
Message has been deleted
Troels Forchhammer
May 16, 2012, 2:10:07 PM5/16/12
to
In message <news:4fb12c52$0$22400$bf49...@news.tele2.nl>
I normally use http://www.heimskringla.no but unfortunately they only
have translations to the Scandinavian languages alongside the Norse
originals (and, in the case of /Beowulf/, the Anglo-Saxon original),
so it's not much use unless you can read one of the Scand languages.
> You know what the most frightening thing is I found while surfing
> for Norse mythology? There are people who BELIEVE THAT STUFF. It
> takes all kinds...
Ásatrú is a recognized religion in several Nordic countries -- you
can get a perfectly legal and binding marriage by a gođi and with the
blessings of Freyr and Freyja.
Personally I don't think it makes less sense if you take it literally
than any other religion (including taking your Bible literally), and
taking it in a more metaphorical sense I can certainly see the
attraction (mind you -- in terms of explanatory power I much prefer
the model offered by science, but there are quite a few things that
science doesn't deal with at all -- truth being one of them and the
possibility of a spiritual reality another). The Ásatrúar that I know
tend toward the more metaphorical side while nonetheless attributing
to the Ásynjur and Ćsir (the gods, fem. and masc.) both personality
and agency -- i.e. not quite as metaphorical as what Raven describes,
but not taking it literally either.
Gođi: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/go%C3%B0i
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
When one admits that nothing is certain one must, I think,
also admit that some things are much more nearly certain
than others.
- Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)
I normally use http://www.heimskringla.no but unfortunately they only
have translations to the Scandinavian languages alongside the Norse
originals (and, in the case of /Beowulf/, the Anglo-Saxon original),
so it's not much use unless you can read one of the Scand languages.
> You know what the most frightening thing is I found while surfing
> for Norse mythology? There are people who BELIEVE THAT STUFF. It
> takes all kinds...
can get a perfectly legal and binding marriage by a gođi and with the
blessings of Freyr and Freyja.
Personally I don't think it makes less sense if you take it literally
than any other religion (including taking your Bible literally), and
taking it in a more metaphorical sense I can certainly see the
attraction (mind you -- in terms of explanatory power I much prefer
the model offered by science, but there are quite a few things that
science doesn't deal with at all -- truth being one of them and the
possibility of a spiritual reality another). The Ásatrúar that I know
tend toward the more metaphorical side while nonetheless attributing
to the Ásynjur and Ćsir (the gods, fem. and masc.) both personality
and agency -- i.e. not quite as metaphorical as what Raven describes,
but not taking it literally either.
Gođi: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/go%C3%B0i
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
also admit that some things are much more nearly certain
than others.
- Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)
Troels Forchhammer
May 16, 2012, 2:43:30 PM5/16/12
to
In message <news:mr-0964F6.10...@News.Individual.NET>
> Well, since both denmark and Norway *was* sweden back in the days,
> the linguistic inheritance lines are muddy to say the least.
You might want to read up on your history ;-)
Denmark was occupied by Swedish forces for about a year (total) at a
couple of cases in the mid-seventeenth century (1657-1658 and, I
think, about a year later) resulting in Scania (Skåne), Halland and
Blekinge becoming Swedish (after which the Swedish king started a
programme of ethnic cleansing to turn them Swedish -- needless to say
he wasn't entirely successful). I do not know of any Dane who'd agree
that Denmark in any way 'was Germany' under the Second World War, so
I cannot officially recognize military occupation as legitimate rule
;-)
Earlier than that, we'll get to the Kalmar Union (1397 –- 1523) which
was the only period when the whole of Scandinavia was ruled by the
same king (staring with Margrethe I, after whom our current queen is
named). However, while the king mostly stayed in Denmark (at the time
including Scania, Halland and Blekinge), there was no effort to
create a single nation (the idea of the nation was a bit different at
that time), so it would be an error to claim that it was other than
three separate countries in a personal union.
Much earlier than this, and we end up with a much larger number of
smaller kingdoms.
> While this may be true - no Swedes, or at least most Swedes, do
> not get exposed to Danish through the media in any way.
While there are some large areas where we can watch each others'
television (I think most of southern Sweden can receive Danish TV --
certainly all of Scania), it is certainly not a majority of homes in
either country (though, with Copenhagen covering at least a fifth of
our population, I think a much larger fraction of Danes can watch
Swedish television than the other way around -- even including Malmö
and Gothenburg).
All of this may actually have changed with the new digital channels,
but I think that, irrespective of the technical possibility, the
daily use of Swedish television has gone down considerably ever since
we got more than one or two Danish channels to choose from.
>> English (which most Danes and Swedes, while reasonably proficient
>> for a non- native language, are no-where near as proficient at as
>> we tend to believe).
>
> Can't say about the danes, but having worked with lots of american
> people, I get told a lot that Swedes are generally good at English
I've worked with quite a few Swedish engineers, and their English is
generally at the same level as their Danish colleagues'. That is,
actually very good for a non-native language, but nowhere as good as
they believe themselves (and this, I hurry to say, probably also
applies to myself). If I wanted to be nasty I might say that
Americans (and the English), having no need to be really proficient
in any foreign language, impress more easily ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Relativity applies to physics, not ethics.
- Albert Einstein (1875-1955)
> In article <XnsA04FE41B...@130.133.4.11>,
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>
<snip>
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>
> Well, since both denmark and Norway *was* sweden back in the days,
> the linguistic inheritance lines are muddy to say the least.
Denmark was occupied by Swedish forces for about a year (total) at a
couple of cases in the mid-seventeenth century (1657-1658 and, I
think, about a year later) resulting in Scania (Skåne), Halland and
Blekinge becoming Swedish (after which the Swedish king started a
programme of ethnic cleansing to turn them Swedish -- needless to say
he wasn't entirely successful). I do not know of any Dane who'd agree
that Denmark in any way 'was Germany' under the Second World War, so
I cannot officially recognize military occupation as legitimate rule
;-)
Earlier than that, we'll get to the Kalmar Union (1397 –- 1523) which
was the only period when the whole of Scandinavia was ruled by the
same king (staring with Margrethe I, after whom our current queen is
named). However, while the king mostly stayed in Denmark (at the time
including Scania, Halland and Blekinge), there was no effort to
create a single nation (the idea of the nation was a bit different at
that time), so it would be an error to claim that it was other than
three separate countries in a personal union.
Much earlier than this, and we end up with a much larger number of
smaller kingdoms.
> While this may be true - no Swedes, or at least most Swedes, do
> not get exposed to Danish through the media in any way.
television (I think most of southern Sweden can receive Danish TV --
certainly all of Scania), it is certainly not a majority of homes in
either country (though, with Copenhagen covering at least a fifth of
our population, I think a much larger fraction of Danes can watch
Swedish television than the other way around -- even including Malmö
and Gothenburg).
All of this may actually have changed with the new digital channels,
but I think that, irrespective of the technical possibility, the
daily use of Swedish television has gone down considerably ever since
we got more than one or two Danish channels to choose from.
>> English (which most Danes and Swedes, while reasonably proficient
>> for a non- native language, are no-where near as proficient at as
>> we tend to believe).
>
> Can't say about the danes, but having worked with lots of american
> people, I get told a lot that Swedes are generally good at English
generally at the same level as their Danish colleagues'. That is,
actually very good for a non-native language, but nowhere as good as
they believe themselves (and this, I hurry to say, probably also
applies to myself). If I wanted to be nasty I might say that
Americans (and the English), having no need to be really proficient
in any foreign language, impress more easily ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
- Albert Einstein (1875-1955)
Mike Scott Rohan
May 19, 2012, 2:05:57 PM5/19/12
to
Cheers,
Mike
Taemon
May 20, 2012, 3:22:29 PM5/20/12
to
Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message <news:4fb12c52$0$22400$bf49...@news.tele2.nl>
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> spoke these staves:
>> For those interested, look what I found:
>> http://www.norsemyth.org/
> I normally use http://www.heimskringla.no but unfortunately they only
> have translations to the Scandinavian languages alongside the Norse
> originals (and, in the case of /Beowulf/, the Anglo-Saxon original),
> so it's not much use unless you can read one of the Scand languages.
Ha. Well, I saved the link, in case I get really desperate for more :-)
> In message <news:4fb12c52$0$22400$bf49...@news.tele2.nl>
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> spoke these staves:
>> For those interested, look what I found:
>> http://www.norsemyth.org/
> I normally use http://www.heimskringla.no but unfortunately they only
> have translations to the Scandinavian languages alongside the Norse
> originals (and, in the case of /Beowulf/, the Anglo-Saxon original),
> so it's not much use unless you can read one of the Scand languages.
Thanks.
>> You know what the most frightening thing is I found while surfing
>> for Norse mythology? There are people who BELIEVE THAT STUFF. It
>> takes all kinds...
> Ásatrú is a recognized religion in several Nordic countries -- you
> can get a perfectly legal and binding marriage by a gođi and with the
> blessings of Freyr and Freyja.
> Personally I don't think it makes less sense if you take it literally
> than any other religion (including taking your Bible literally), and
> taking it in a more metaphorical sense I can certainly see the
> attraction
they were raised in. If you take on another religion... well, you must
really want it. And some of these people do not take it metaphorically -
apparently it isn't unusual to be afraid to utter the name of Loki lest you
attract his (or His) attention. That's a level of crazy I admit to be
surprised to encounter. My sweetie laughed at me for apparently having never
been on the internet before and surely, it didn't take me long to adjust to
the fact. Still, though. Loki. Boooooh.
> (mind you -- in terms of explanatory power I much prefer
> the model offered by science, but there are quite a few things that
> science doesn't deal with at all -- truth being one of them and the
> possibility of a spiritual reality another).
> The Ásatrúar that I know
> tend toward the more metaphorical side while nonetheless attributing
> to the Ásynjur and Ćsir (the gods, fem. and masc.) both personality
> and agency -- i.e. not quite as metaphorical as what Raven describes,
> but not taking it literally either.
T.
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