Free Will and the Music in the Silmarillion...
Johnny1a
and Mannish free will (both IMHO have the ability, but Elves are bound
by the rules of the Music, their free choices bound in by the Music in
a way the Men are not, i.e. my chess pieces analogy).
In thinking about the Silmarillion, I saw some places where I think I
can cite specific examples of what I mean.
In the _Tale of Beren and Luthien_, several things were said to be
'fated'. This could mean that the Music dictates it, or it could more
importantly mean that Eru wills it. In the case of the former the
Elves are bound and Men are not, in the later of course everyone must
play.
I don't think Barahir was 'fated' to wage a hopeless and largely
pointless geurilla war against the Enemy in his former lands, he opted
to for reasons that had a lot to do with pride and arguably were ill-
advised. But having done so, Gorlim's choices were likewise
unwise...and I think likewise free.
So, when Gorlim betrays Barahir to Sauron, I think that was Mannish
free will at work. Gorlim did not _have_ to go back to the ruins of
his house to mourn, and in fact from a coldly pragmatic guerilla war
POV he should not have, because it made him vulnerable to being
compromised, just as happened.
So Barahir and his band get wiped out, save Beren who is warned by
Gorlim in a ghostly visitation, and Beren proceeds to wage a lone war
that eventually becomes sufficiently annoying that Morgoth set a price
on his head equal to that of the High King of the Noldor.
(Impressive, that.) Eventually Morgoth turns up the heat enough to
drive Beren south, and Beren resolves to go to Doriath.
This I think was Fate, one way or another Beren was destined to go to
Doriath and meet Luthien. But _how_ this happened was flexible, and
would have been for either an Elf or a Man. But as a Man, I think
Beren _could_ have gone one better, and potentially escaped his fate
and not ever gone to Doriath. It might not be easy or wise, but I
think the potential existed.
Luthien was fated to meet Beren, the only way she could avoid that, I
think, was if Beren were to use his Mannish freedom from Fate to short-
circuit their meeting. I don't think it was within her power to avoid
that meeting no matter what she did or didn't do. She might have been
Musically destined to love Beren, too, certainly she fell for him
almost at first sight, with a love that defied all custom and common
sense.
Both Thingol and Melian foresaw the coming of a Man who would be of
vital importance, but they didn't know the details and Thingol dreaded
the loss he sensed in that Man's coming. I suspect that Thingol
losing Luthien, one way or another, because of the coming of a Man,
was Musical. It was written in stone and as an Elf, no option open to
Thingol could prevent their separation. But the _details_ could be
shaped by his (and other people's) free choices. If Beren had short-
circuited his fate and never met Luthien, then still Thingol would
lose her...somehow, and it would still be in some way because of the
actions of Beren (though they might never know it).
Once they (Beren and Luthien), it was beyond any power of Thingol to
keep them apart. Even killing Beren would accomplish nothing but
shattering Luthien's love for her father and her heart, he'd still
love her to Beren in another way. Eventually Thingol perceived this
and recognized the futility of fighting what was happening.
But Thingol didn't _have_ to try to get Beren killed by sending him
after a Silmaril. By doing so he set in motion the chain of events
that destroyed Doriath, and Melian warned him of as much. Had he not
done that, who knows what would have happened. He'd still have been
forced one way or another to lose Luthien to Beren, but Doriath might
have survived, and maybe other things might have gone better. Or
not. But I don't think Thingol _had_ to do what he did about the
Silmaril.
But once he did this, he was locked into the implications of his
choice, as Melian told him when he asked her for advice, she could no
longer change anything because of Thingol's choice. He would just
have to wait for the events he set in motion to play out.
A Man, OTOH, _might_ have been able to change something. S/he could
at least _try_.
I suspect that one of the reasons Ulmo opted to use a Man as his
messenger to Gondolin and Turgon was that he had to get that message
through past the Malice of Morgoth and the Doom of the Noldor, in
effect he was working against both Morgoth and the other Valar. It
might be that no Elf could successfully thread such a needle of Fate,
even with the aid of Ulmo, but a Man (Tuor) was another matter...
Christopher Kreuzer
"Johnny1a" <sherm...@hotmail.com> wrote :
> I've been thinking about my analysis of the difference between Elvish
> and Mannish free will (both IMHO have the ability, but Elves are bound
> by the rules of the Music, their free choices bound in by the Music in
> a way the Men are not, i.e. my chess pieces analogy).
>
> In thinking about the Silmarillion, I saw some places where I think I
> can cite specific examples of what I mean.
>
> In the _Tale of Beren and Luthien_, several things were said to be
> 'fated'. This could mean that the Music dictates it, or it could more
> importantly mean that Eru wills it. In the case of the former the
> Elves are bound and Men are not, in the later of course everyone must
> play.
<snip>
I agree that the Barahir story was not part of the workings of this "higher
fate". But I think it is important to distinguish between _ordinary_ fate,
and the higher (or great) fate that is singled out as having the greater
impact on the histories of those days.
One example here is that of the sons of Indis, which is one of the few
examples where Tolkien talks at length about what might have been, and how
even with great sorrow there came great good, and that undoing the one,
would also have undone the other:
"In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which Feanor was
the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwe,
judging that if Finwe had endured his loss and been content with the
fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Feanor would have been
otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the
strife in the house of Finwe is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves.
But the children of Indis were great and glorious, and their children also;
and if they had not lived the history of the Eldar would have been
diminished." (Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor)
Another "what-if" passage concerned Feanor and the Silmarils and his
decision whether to yield them to Yavanna after the Trees were dying:
"...all one it may seem whether Feanor had said yea or nay to Yavanna; yet
had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may
be that his after deeds would have been other than they were. But now the
doom of the Noldor drew near." (Of the Flight of the Noldor)
Note how an exercise of free will by Feanor has furthered the fate of the
Noldor. The workings of free will and fate are inextricably entwined and
coupled. It probably makes no sense to talk about them separately.
> This I think was Fate, one way or another Beren was destined to go to
> Doriath and meet Luthien. But _how_ this happened was flexible, and
> would have been for either an Elf or a Man. But as a Man, I think
> Beren _could_ have gone one better, and potentially escaped his fate
> and not ever gone to Doriath. It might not be easy or wise, but I
> think the potential existed.
I can see why you want Beren, as a Man, to retain this loophole of free
will, to escape even this fate, but I disagree. I think this fate lay heavy
on him, and was about as inescapable as anything could be.
"...he passed through the mazes that Melian wove about the kingdom of
Thingol, even as she had foretold; for a great doom lay upon him." (Of Beren
and Luthien)
Not an ordinary doom, but a great doom.
> Luthien was fated to meet Beren, the only way she could avoid that, I
> think, was if Beren were to use his Mannish freedom from Fate to short-
> circuit their meeting.
And that wouldn't be Luthien trying anything. It would be Beren doing things
here. But I think it is important to get the balance right here between
formulaic "free will possibilities", and artistic license, and the "right"
story.
> I don't think it was within her power to avoid
> that meeting no matter what she did or didn't do. She might have been
> Musically destined to love Beren, too, certainly she fell for him
> almost at first sight, with a love that defied all custom and common
> sense.
I think this is the crux. The real fate was Luthien and Beren falling in
love with each other. This feeling comes across powerfully in the text:
"Then the spell of silence fell from Beren, and he called to her, crying
Tinuviel; and the woods echoed the name. Then she halted in wonder, and fled
no more, and Beren came to her. But as she looked on him, doom fell upon
her, and she loved him..." (Of Beren and Luthien)
It is clear here that her destiny, or fate (the meaning of doom here) has
come to pass. The essentially pre-ordained event has coalesced from a set of
possibilities, and cannnot be undone.
Another passage, soon after this, seems very relevant:
"...in his fate Luthien was caught, and being immortal she shared in his
mortality, and being free received his chain..." (Of Beren and Luthien)
> Both Thingol and Melian foresaw the coming of a Man who would be of
> vital importance, but they didn't know the details
I found this bit from Melian illuminating when considering Beren and his
fate (she is speaking to Thingol):
"...far and free does his fate lead him in the end, yet it is wound with
yours. Take heed!" (Of Beren and Luthien)
The reference to someone being led "far and free" by fate I think strikes at
the heart of the conundrum here. Beren is a free man, yet he is constrained
by his fate.
<snip>
> But Thingol didn't _have_ to try to get Beren killed by sending him
> after a Silmaril. By doing so he set in motion the chain of events
> that destroyed Doriath, and Melian warned him of as much
Absolutely.
One of the fascinating passages concerning Beren and Luthien and their fate
is the advice given to them by Huan, the wolfhound of Valinor, fated (funny
that!) to only speak three times with words. The first time was to advise
Luthien on her escape from Nargothrond, the last time was when saying
farewell to Beren, but the second time is the only time we are explicitly
told what he said, and it turns out to be one of those prophetic what-if
statements about fate:
"From the shadow of death you can no longer save Luthien, for by her love
she is now subject to it. You can turn from your fate and lead her into
exile, seeking peace in vain while your life lasts. But if you will not deny
your doom, then either Luthien, being forsaken, must assuredly die alone, or
she must with you challenge the fate that lies before you - hopeless, yet
not certain. Further counsel I cannot give, nor may I go further on your
road. But my heart forebodes that what you find at the Gate I shall myself
see. All else is dark to me; yet it may be that our three paths lead back to
Doriath, and we may meet before the end." (Of Beren and Luthien)
Huan explicitly says that Beren _can_ turn aside from his path and _deny_
his doom, but he also warns that if Beren does this that he and Luthien will
never find peace (probably both literally, as Morgoth overruns Beleriand,
and mentally as they struggle to find their inner peace). Finally, consider
also the origin of Huan. He comes from Valinor and is permitted to speak
thrice only. Feels a lot like a pre-programmed "advice avatar" placed in
Beleriand by the Valar... (via Celegorm of course).
<snip>
> I suspect that one of the reasons Ulmo opted to use a Man as his
> messenger to Gondolin and Turgon was that he had to get that message
> through past the Malice of Morgoth and the Doom of the Noldor, in
> effect he was working against both Morgoth and the other Valar. It
> might be that no Elf could successfully thread such a needle of Fate,
> even with the aid of Ulmo, but a Man (Tuor) was another matter...
Interesting idea. You could also look at the use of Elves as messagers to
the Valar from Turgon. None of them got through. Earendil, of course, was of
mixed lineage and did get through the "needle of Fate" (nice phrase that!).
Having responded to some of the points you raised above, I'd like to add
some points of my own, and examples, of fate, doom and free will - there are
literally hundreds of such examples in Tolkien's writings. I'll try to limit
myself to the ones that seem most interesting, or related specifically to
Elves and Men.
The one that sprang to mind immediately was the one from Appendix F in 'The
Lord of the Rings', concerning the fate of Elves and Men (though here, fate
seems to mean history):
"...the history of those that returned to Middle-earth in exile was
grievous; and though it was in far-off days crossed by the fate of the
Fathers, their fate is not that of Men. Their dominion passed long ago, and
they dwell now beyond the circles of the world, and do not return."
(Appendix F, The Lord of the Rings)
Looking in 'The Silmarillion', we find a similar passage:
"Only a part is here told of the deeds of those days, and most is said of
the Noldor, and the Silmarils, and the mortals that became entangled in
their fate." (Of Men)
So it seems that mortals, although they are said to be free, still seem
bound by a higher fate if they become entangled in it. In fact, I think this
concept of a higher fate can solve a lot of problems. Avoid the set courses
of fate, and you can do what you like. If, however, you involve yourself in
the great deeds of the day, your fate becomes constrained to follow the
higher fates, like those of the Silmarils, the objects of which Mandos said:
"...the fates of Arda, earth, sea, and air, lay locked within them." (Of the
Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor)
Again, regarding Elf-Man interactions of fate, we have the following
passage:
"And in the glory and beauty of the Elves, and in their fate, full share had
the offspring of elf and mortal, Earendil, and Elwing, and Elrond their
child." (Of Men)
This reinforces the concept of Men becoming bound to the fate of the Elves
of Beleriand, of sharing in their histories and their destinies.
As a brief aside, a quick look at a fated creature (the largest wolf to walk
the world) and how it fared when caught up in a higher fate still, that of
the Silmarils:
"...the onslaught of Carcharoth, the Wolf of Angband. In his madness he had
run ravening from the north, and passing at length over Taur nu-Fuin upon
its eastern side he came down from the sources of Esgalduin like a
destroying fire. Nothing hindered him, and the might of Melian upon the
borders of the land stayed him not; for fate drove him, and the power of the
Silmaril that he bore to his torment." (Of Beren and Luthien)
Turning from Beren and Luthien, we can look at one of the other great
stories of Men entangled in the fates of the Elves of the Elder Days, that
of Turin:
"Here that tale is told in brief, for it is woven with the fate of the
Silmarils and of the Elves; and it is called the Tale of Grief... (Of Turin
Turambar)
Again, the images of "woven" fate bring to mind an image of fates
intermingling and clashing. Maybe it should be seen as a case of "my fate
trumps yours" (the Silmarils most definitely trumped Carcharoth), or in some
cases a mingling of the fates to produce a new outcome?
An interesting insight into the workings of fate is seen here:
"Beleg drew his sword Anglachel, and with it he cut the fetters that bound
Turin; but fate was that day more strong, for the blade slipped as he cut
the shackles, and Turin's foot was pricked." (Of Turin Turambar)
The whole idea that fate was that day "more strong" implies that on other
days it can be weak, and can be overcome. Free will, anyone? Maybe Men are
better at overcoming fate in this way?
But fate can be a terrible foe when aroused, as Gwindor recognises when
speaking to Turin about the love Finduilas bore for Turin:
"Neither will fate suffer it, unless it be once or twice only, for some high
cause of doom that we do not perceive." (Of Turin Turambar)
That passage about also makes clear that here fate and doom _are_ different
things, even if only in the most subtle of ways. Fate is an active thing,
while doom is a passive thing. In most other passages, the words fate and
doom are for all intents and purposes interchangeable, but not here.
Consider: "Neither will doom suffer it, unless it be once or twice only, for
some high cause of fate that we do not perceive." Sounds all wrong, doesn't
it? Ulmo (in 'Unfinished Tales'), talks about fate and doom, seemingly as
different concepts:
"...in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a
rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye
call the End." (Unfinished Tales)
Again, switching the words fate and doom make no sense here. It is possible
that Ulmo is just saying that Fate and Doom are different words for the same
thing, but maybe he is saying that doom is the consequence or tool of fate?
Fate enacts a person's doom? ie. Fate sits in judgement and hands down a
doom? Does this sound completely silly?
As you can see, I'm really struggling here to understand why sometimes doom
and fate seem the same, and at other times they appear different, I would
use the words foretelling to describe what a high doom is, and the Doom of
the Noldor is a curse, and in Turin's case his doom is also a curse. But
what is this fate that will not suffer change unless it be for a high doom?
That, I suspect, is a hard question to answer.
Turgon, too, is sensitive to the workings of fate when Tuor comes to the
hidden realm of Gondolin:
"...he perceived that the fate of the Noldor was wound with the one whom
Ulmo had sent; and he did not forget the words that Huor spoke to him before
the host of Gondolin departed from the Battle of Unnumbered Tears." (Of Tuor
and the Fall of Gondolin)
The Fall of Gondolin is a good example of something that was fated. Recall
the words of Ulmo, Lord of the Waters, to Turgon, aforetime:
"Longest of all the realms of the Eldalie shall Gondolin stand against
Melkor." (Of the Noldor in Beleriand)
And related to this (the Fall of Gondolin) is this passage:
"...thus it came to pass, as fate willed, that Maeglin was taken
prisoner..." (Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin)
Fate is presented as an active, participating element in the story (though
in a metaphorical sense): "as fate _willed_" (my emphasis). A similar
example to this is the description of Beren and Luthien returning to Doriath
after their escape from Angband, realising (as happens again later when the
Hunting of the Wolf takes place) that the doom is not yet complete, and the
story has not yet ended:
"he passed into Doriath, leading LĂșthien home. So their doom willed it." (Of
Beren and Luthien)
Doom (here synonymous with fate) is, as in the previous example for fate,
being presented as being "willed". So who is doing the willing, and how does
it relate to free will? Is it all that strange concept of 'wyrd' again?
Turning from fate to free will, we have two very interesting quotes:
1) Feanor on whether he will give up the Silmarils to allow Yavanna to heal
the hurt done to the Two Trees by Melkor and Ungoliant:
"This thing I will not do of free will. But if the Valar will constrain me,
then shall I know indeed that Melkor is of their kindred." (Of the Flight of
the Noldor)
Feanor at least, it seems, has free will! :-)
2) "Celegorm and Curufin vowed openly to slay Thingol and destroy his
people, if they came victorious from war, and the jewel were not surrendered
of free will." (Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad)
Again, those elves think they have free will... (and, of course, they do -
Tolkien wouldn't deny free will to Elves and Men, or any of the free
peoples).
I've left doom for another post. Actually a quiz, but it is important to
look at those examples as well, as doom and fate are often synonymous
(though doom also means judgment in many cases). I brought in the free will
examples at the end, but I think the examples I provided of _fate_ are far
more thought-provoking.
What exactly is going on here with fate, free will and doom?
Christopher
Johnny1a
wrote:
>
> > This I think was Fate, one way or another Beren was destined to go to
> > Doriath and meet Luthien. But _how_ this happened was flexible, and
> > would have been for either an Elf or a Man. But as a Man, I think
> > Beren _could_ have gone one better, and potentially escaped his fate
> > and not ever gone to Doriath. It might not be easy or wise, but I
> > think the potential existed.
>
> I can see why you want Beren, as a Man, to retain this loophole of free
> will, to escape even this fate, but I disagree. I think this fate lay heavy
> on him, and was about as inescapable as anything could be.
It's not a matter of what I 'want', but what Tolkien told us:
'(Eru says) "Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a Mansion for the
Quendi and the Atani! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all
earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and shall
bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the
greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will give a new
gift." Therefore He willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond
the world and find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to
shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the
Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their
operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the
world fulfilled unto the last and the smallest.
'But Iluvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers
of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in
harmony; and he said: "These too in their time shall find that all
that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of My work."'
OK, this tells us that Men do have a gift of freedom that is somehow
different in _kind_ thant he freedom of the other sapient races.
Elves, Dwarves and Ainur and whatever other intelligence there be
certainly exercise free choices, we see them do it, but there's
something _different_ about Men. That's why I say Beren could
probably have, potentially, 'reset' his destiny, even after he was
caught up in the middle of the Doom of the Noldor. But no matter what
path he took, it would end up serving Eru's designs in the end. But
there are many roads to that end, most of them longer than any one
Man's lifetime.
>
> > Luthien was fated to meet Beren, the only way she could avoid that, I
> > think, was if Beren were to use his Mannish freedom from Fate to short-
> > circuit their meeting.
>
> And that wouldn't be Luthien trying anything. It would be Beren doing things
> here.
Exactly my point. Luthien _could not_ avoid meeting Beren by any
choice or action of her own. I'm not so sure about Beren.
>
> "...in his fate Luthien was caught, and being immortal she shared in his
> mortality, and being free received his chain..." (Of Beren and Luthien)
>
> > Both Thingol and Melian foresaw the coming of a Man who would be of
> > vital importance, but they didn't know the details
> One of the fascinating passages concerning Beren and Luthien and their fate
> is the advice given to them by Huan, the wolfhound of Valinor, fated (funny
> that!) to only speak three times with words. The first time was to advise
> Luthien on her escape from Nargothrond, the last time was when saying
> farewell to Beren, but the second time is the only time we are explicitly
> told what he said, and it turns out to be one of those prophetic what-if
> statements about fate:
>
> "From the shadow of death you can no longer save Luthien, for by her love
> she is now subject to it. You can turn from your fate and lead her into
> exile, seeking peace in vain while your life lasts. But if you will not deny
> your doom, then either Luthien, being forsaken, must assuredly die alone, or
> she must with you challenge the fate that lies before you - hopeless, yet
> not certain. Further counsel I cannot give, nor may I go further on your
> road. But my heart forebodes that what you find at the Gate I shall myself
> see. All else is dark to me; yet it may be that our three paths lead back to
> Doriath, and we may meet before the end." (Of Beren and Luthien)
>
> Huan explicitly says that Beren _can_ turn aside from his path and _deny_
> his doom, but he also warns that if Beren does this that he and Luthien will
> never find peace (probably both literally, as Morgoth overruns Beleriand,
> and mentally as they struggle to find their inner peace). Finally, consider
> also the origin of Huan. He comes from Valinor and is permitted to speak
> thrice only. Feels a lot like a pre-programmed "advice avatar" placed in
> Beleriand by the Valar... (via Celegorm of course).
Here I absolutely can not agree. JRRT might have wished he could
rewrite it that way, in later times he wished he had not incorporated
'talking animals' such as the Eagles and Roac the raven, etc. He
tried to argue that they could elevated animals, rather than really
_people_. But that's just simply not how they were written.
For example, in Nargothrond when Celegorm and Curufin were holding
Luthien prisoner, planning to force her to marry Celegorm, Huan 'and
at night he lay before her door, for he felt that evil had come to
Nargothrond'. A sophisticated moral judgement here, and what evil was
it he felt the need to guard her door from? The only one that jumps
to mind would be Celegorm or someone forcing himself on Luthien, which
Tolkien wrote in his understated way. He displayed human/elven levels
of comprehension and understanding, he grasped the nature of the
events around him a way no mere animal could possibly do.
I just can't reconcile myself to the theory that Huan was soul-less,
or that he was an automaton of any sort. I also don't believe that
the Valar knew much about the relationship of Beren and Luthien ahead
of time, it looks to me like one of the 'new things in each age' that
Eru kept to Himself until the due time.
> > I suspect that one of the reasons Ulmo opted to use a Man as his
> > messenger to Gondolin and Turgon was that he had to get that message
> > through past the Malice of Morgoth and the Doom of the Noldor, in
> > effect he was working against both Morgoth and the other Valar. It
> > might be that no Elf could successfully thread such a needle of Fate,
> > even with the aid of Ulmo, but a Man (Tuor) was another matter...
>
> Interesting idea. You could also look at the use of Elves as messagers to
> the Valar from Turgon. None of them got through. Earendil, of course, was of
> mixed lineage and did get through the "needle of Fate" (nice phrase that!).
And furthermore, I think Earendil was in a sense more Mannish than
Elvish, certainly Tolkien tells us that at heart he would rather have
chosen to be counted with Men than Elves, but he chose otherwise for
his wife's sake.
But I'm not sure how the respective Gifts of Elves and Men play out in
the mixed ancestry individuals.
>
>
> Turning from Beren and Luthien, we can look at one of the other great
> stories of Men entangled in the fates of the Elves of the Elder Days, that
> of Turin:
>
> "Here that tale is told in brief, for it is woven with the fate of the
> Silmarils and of the Elves; and it is called the Tale of Grief... (Of Turin
> Turambar)
>
> Again, the images of "woven" fate bring to mind an image of fates
> intermingling and clashing. Maybe it should be seen as a case of "my fate
> trumps yours" (the Silmarils most definitely trumped Carcharoth), or in some
> cases a mingling of the fates to produce a new outcome?
>
> An interesting insight into the workings of fate is seen here:
>
> "Beleg drew his sword Anglachel, and with it he cut the fetters that bound
> Turin; but fate was that day more strong, for the blade slipped as he cut
> the shackles, and Turin's foot was pricked." (Of Turin Turambar)
In the case of Turin, though, matters are complicated because Morgoth
is actively interfering. Morgoth is a Vala (though not accorded the
status and honor of one), and when he said all things in Arda bend
slowly to his will, he was lying...but not _completely_. Just as the
Valar could lay the Doom of Mandos on the Noldor, Morgorth can twist
the probabilities by his own will as well, and when that will is
focused so completely on one person...
Yet Morgoth feared Turin might grow 'great' enough to evade his this
power, apparently he considered it a theoretical possibility that a
Man could do such a thing. Morgoth's pressure was compounded by
Turin's own bad choices, after all. Presumably had Turin chosen more
wisely, the curse might have been less fearfully effective. (Probably
only Manwe or Mandos, if even they, could completely unsnarl the
mutual feedback between Turin's freedom and Morgoth's curse.)
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamg...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > This I think was Fate, one way or another Beren was destined to go to
>> > Doriath and meet Luthien. But _how_ this happened was flexible, and
>> > would have been for either an Elf or a Man. But as a Man, I think
>> > Beren _could_ have gone one better, and potentially escaped his fate
>> > and not ever gone to Doriath. It might not be easy or wise, but I
>> > think the potential existed.
>>
>> I can see why you want Beren, as a Man, to retain this loophole of free
>> will, to escape even this fate, but I disagree. I think this fate lay
>> heavy
>> on him, and was about as inescapable as anything could be.
>
> It's not a matter of what I 'want', but what Tolkien told us:
<snip most of quote>
> "they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and
> chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as
> fate to all things else"
> OK, this tells us that Men do have a gift of freedom that is somehow
> different in _kind_ thant he freedom of the other sapient races.
> Elves, Dwarves and Ainur and whatever other intelligence there be
> certainly exercise free choices, we see them do it, but there's
> something _different_ about Men. That's why I say Beren could
> probably have, potentially, 'reset' his destiny, even after he was
> caught up in the middle of the Doom of the Noldor. But no matter what
> path he took, it would end up serving Eru's designs in the end. But
> there are many roads to that end, most of them longer than any one
> Man's lifetime.
I agree he could have reset his doom in some ways, but I still think that he
is caught in the net of a "high doom" that would need some real exercising
of will to escape. The "a high doom was on him" bit seems to suggest to me
that Eru is guiding his path in some way. I don't think there is any
realistic way in which he would have avoided meeting Luthien, but I'll grant
it is possible. An interesting question might be whether, if Beren had died
or turned from his path, whether the new course of events would have had
annother Man come to Doriath and fall in love with Luthien, or whether the
"Elf-Man love story" would have played out with two completely different
people? Also, consider this - was it fated that an Elf and a Man would fall
in love this way, or was this something that hadn't appeared in the Music,
and was totally new and strange? (I see you bring up this point later as
well)
Going back to what happened after they had met, I think that once Beren and
Luthien are caught in the net of the doom of the Silmarils (thanks to
Thingol), other factors come into play. It is just possible that in some
scenarios the high doom of Luthien and Beren _overcomes_ the more 'normal'
(though still exceedingly high) doom of the Silmarils, and this enables them
to succeed where others failed.
<snip>
I agree that Huan is 'human' in character. I phrased it poorly. I think that
at the times when he speaks with words, he is transmitting some sort of
message over and beyond what he would normally be able to say.
The crucial passage seems, to me, to be:
"Further counsel I cannot give, nor may I go further on your road."
Is Huan saying this as his opinion ("I don't have any more useful advice I
can think of, and it is best I don't go with you because that is not my fate
and you are fated to do this together on your own, and if I come with you it
will mess things up") or is it more than that ("This program in my head is
blocking me from saying anything more, and it is also saying I can't go with
you").
Essentially, the question boils down to whether (while he is speaking with
words in that scene - not the other two scenes) Huan has free will, or is
acting to carry out the wishes of a higher force?
At other times (you mention Nargothrond), I agree that Huan is acting with
free will and with 'human' character. But if this is the case, how do you
explain the "thrice only" can he speak with words bit? Just a standard
fairy-tale motif, or something more?
<snip>
> I just can't reconcile myself to the theory that Huan was soul-less,
> or that he was an automaton of any sort.
How about a theory that he was a free agent most of the time, but sometimes
gained powerful insights and was raised to new levels of power (speaking
with words) when needed (just like Gandalf became Gandalf the White), and
thus acted as an agent for higher forces at that time (either the Valar or
Eru)?
> I also don't believe that
> the Valar knew much about the relationship of Beren and Luthien ahead
> of time, it looks to me like one of the 'new things in each age' that
> Eru kept to Himself until the due time.
That is plausible. It certainly sounds nicer than having it woven into the
Music and foretold from the beginning (in plan if not in detail). Note that
it is entirely possible that the characters in the story believe something
to be "high doom" and "fated", when it might not be. They could well be
mistaken. The most trustworthy assertions of doom and fate would seem to
come from Mandos and Manwe, and possibly Ulmo as well.
>> > I suspect that one of the reasons Ulmo opted to use a Man as his
>> > messenger to Gondolin and Turgon was that he had to get that message
>> > through past the Malice of Morgoth and the Doom of the Noldor, in
>> > effect he was working against both Morgoth and the other Valar. It
>> > might be that no Elf could successfully thread such a needle of Fate,
>> > even with the aid of Ulmo, but a Man (Tuor) was another matter...
>>
>> Interesting idea. You could also look at the use of Elves as messagers to
>> the Valar from Turgon. None of them got through. Earendil, of course, was
>> of
>> mixed lineage and did get through the "needle of Fate" (nice phrase
>> that!).
>
> And furthermore, I think Earendil was in a sense more Mannish than
> Elvish, certainly Tolkien tells us that at heart he would rather have
> chosen to be counted with Men than Elves, but he chose otherwise for
> his wife's sake.
>
> But I'm not sure how the respective Gifts of Elves and Men play out in
> the mixed ancestry individuals.
It is certainly an interesting idea. The text strongly suggests that it was
due to the power of the Silmaril that Earendil broke through the
enchantments and came to the Undying Lands.
"...the Silmaril was bound upon his brow; and ever its light grew greater as
they drew into the West. And the wise have said that it was by reason of the
power of that holy jewel that they came in time to waters that no vessels
save those of the Teleri had known; and they came to the Enchanted Isles and
escaped their enchantment; and they came into the Shadowy Seas and passed
their shadows..." (Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath)
Maybe Earendil was the first person to have the chance to do this (and he
was a great mariner as well, which helped). But I'm sure that if a great Elf
mariner had borne the Silmaril westwards, some doom would have intervened
and prevented the story ending that way. Similarly, we know that Earendil
without the Silmaril failed to find Aman. I'm convinced it is a combination
of both the Silmaril and Earendil that brings the story nearer to its end.
Recall Eonwe's words to Earendil when he reaches Tirion:
"Hail Earendil, of mariners most renowned, the looked for that cometh at
unawares, the longed for that cometh beyond hope!" (Of the Voyage of
Earendil and the War of Wrath)
Earendil certainly seemed to think that he was under some high doom, as does
Ulmo:
"Await me here; for one only may bring the message that it is my fate to
bear." (Earendil on the shore of Aman) and "For this he was born into the
world." (Ulmo, contending with the Doomsman of the Valar in the Ring of
Doom) - both passages from 'Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath'.
Just as Men can exercise their free will, so Morgoth has the power to twist
and bend the possibilities, due to his innate power. It sounds strangely
compelling!
> Yet Morgoth feared Turin might grow 'great' enough to evade his this
> power, apparently he considered it a theoretical possibility that a
> Man could do such a thing. Morgoth's pressure was compounded by
> Turin's own bad choices, after all. Presumably had Turin chosen more
> wisely, the curse might have been less fearfully effective. (Probably
> only Manwe or Mandos, if even they, could completely unsnarl the
> mutual feedback between Turin's freedom and Morgoth's curse.)
Maybe one way to put it is to say that Elves (and other creatures) are more
attuned to the powers and forces around them, and so are more affected by
them and less able to escape the influences (ie. more constrained by fate),
but that Men are less affected by all this, and hence appear as more free to
choose. The downside being that they are less 'involved' at the deeper level
that Elves are. ie. Elves are more "tangled" in the world history of Arda,
but Men are less so. Except when they do get tangled up in the workings of
fate and so one (whether than be Beren and Luthien's high doom, or the high
doom of the Silmarils, or the malevolent workings of Morgoth and Glaurung
for Hurin and his family).
The above, essentially, is a paraphrase of:
"they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances
of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things
else" (Of the Beginning of Days)
The key thing here is "as fate". I don't think this is meant to mean that
all other things were fated to follow pre-ordained paths, but that the Music
of the Ainur represents the environment and powers that Elves and Men find
themselves in, and that Elves (and more so the Ainur) are deeply attuned to
that and this constrains their fate. In other words, the Ainur and Elves are
'tangled' in the fate of Arda, whereas Men are not and eventually leave it.
To use an analogy (I'm sure a better one can be thought up), the Elves and
Ainur are waist and neck deep in a think, treacle-like morass (or just
water, if you prefer), and their movements are hence restricted, but Men are
only ankle-deep and have more freedom of movement, but ocassionally are
drawn by choice or design into deeper waters and end up caught in the fate
of higher dooms.
A rather horrifying image of Turin is of him being caught in the webs of
Morgoth's deceits and malice like a fly caught on fly-paper. The more he
struggles (in the wrong way), the deeper he is ensnared. The analogy breaks
down somewhat when considering how Turin could have "grown greater" and
overcome his doom, so it should be taken, like all analogies, with a pinch
of salt.
And briefly, though I realise I did overload the previous past with lots of
examples, what did you think of the "far and free does his fate lead him in
the end" quote from Melian concerning Beren (how can fate lead someone far
and free?), and the examples involving Feanor, and how his exercising of
free will merely brought the doom (fate) of the Noldor closer.
Christopher