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sean_q  
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 More options Oct 16 2012, 11:54 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien, alt.fan.tolkien
From: sean_q <no.s...@no.spam>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 20:54:27 -0800
Local: Wed, Oct 17 2012 12:54 am
Subject: Churchill, Gandalf & Denethor
A few comparisons between Winston Churchill's "Their Finest Hour"
speech in the House of Commons, June 18, 1940 and some wisdom
from RotK:

C: What General Weygand called the Battle of France is over.
I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin.

G: ...it cannot be doubted that when Denethor saw great forces
arrayed against him in Mordor, and more still being gathered,
he saw that which truly is.

C: The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us

G: Hardly has our strength sufficed to beat off the first great
assault. The next will be greater.

C: Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose
the war.

G: Now Sauron knows all this, and he knows that this precious thing
which he lost has been found again

C: If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life
of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands.

G: If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low
that none can foresee his arising ever again... And so a great evil
of this world will be removed.

C: But if we fail, then the whole world... will sink into the abyss
of a new Dark Age

G: If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will
be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end
of it while this world lasts.

C: During the first four years of the last war the Allies experienced
nothing but disaster and disappointment. That was our constant fear:
one blow after another, terrible losses, frightful dangers.
Everything miscarried. And yet at the end of those four years
the morale of the Allies was higher than that of the Germans,
who had moved from one aggressive triumph to another, and who
stood everywhere triumphant invaders of the lands into which
they had broken. During that war we repeatedly asked ourselves
the question: How are we going to win? and no one was able ever
to answer it with much precision, until at the end, quite suddenly,
quite unexpectedly, our terrible foe collapsed before us, and we
were so glutted with victory that in our folly we threw it away.

G: His doubt will be growing, even as we speak here. His Eye
is now straining towards us, blind almost to all else that is moving.
So we must keep it. Therein lies all our hope. This, then,
is my counsel. We have not the Ring. In wisdom or great folly
it has been sent away to be destroyed, lest it destroy us.

C: We may now ask ourselves: In what way has our position worsened
since the beginning of the war? It has worsened by the fact that
the Germans have conquered a large part of the coast line
of Western Europe, and many small countries have been overrun
by them...

If Hitler can bring under his despotic control the industries
of the countries he has conquered, this will add greatly to his
already vast armament output. On the other hand, this will not
happen immediately, and we are now assured of immense, continuous
and increasing support in supplies and munitions of all kinds
from the United States; and especially of aeroplanes and pilots
from the Dominions and across the oceans coming from regions
which are beyond the reach of enemy bombers.

I do not see how any of these factors can operate to our detriment
on balance before the winter comes; and the winter will impose
a strain upon the Nazi regime, with almost all Europe writhing
and starving under its cruel heel, which, for all their ruthlessness,
will run them very hard...  In the meanwhile, however, we have
enormously improved our methods of defense, and we have learned
what we had no right to assume at the beginning, namely, that
the individual aircraft and the individual British pilot have
a sure and definite superiority. Therefore, in casting up this
dread balance sheet and contemplating our dangers with
a disillusioned eye, I see great reason for intense vigilance
and exertion, but none whatever for panic or despair.

G: listen to the words of the Steward of Gondor before he died:
_You may triumph on the fields of the Pelennor for a day,
but against the Power that has now arisen there is no victory_.
I do not bid you despair, as he did, but to ponder the truth
in these words.

C: I am not reciting these facts for the purpose of recrimination.
That I judge to be utterly futile and even harmful. We cannot
afford it. I recite them in order to explain why it was we did not
have, as we could have had, between twelve and fourteen British
divisions fighting in the line in this great battle instead of
only three. Now I put all this aside. I put it on the shelf,
from which the historians, when they have time, will select their
documents to tell their stories. We have to think of the future
and not of the past. This also applies in a small way to our own
affairs at home. There are many who would hold an inquest in
the House of Commons on the conduct of the Governments - and of
Parliaments, for they are in it, too - during the years which
led up to this catastrophe. They seek to indict those who were
responsible for the guidance of our affairs. This also would be
a foolish and pernicious process. There are too many in it.
Let each man search his conscience and search his speeches.
I frequently search mine.

Of this I am quite sure, that if we open a quarrel between
the past and the present, we shall find that we have lost
the future.

D: 'If I had! If you had!' he said. 'Such words and ifs are vain.
It has gone into the Shadow, and only time will show what doom
awaits it and us. The time will not be long. In what is left,
let all who fight the Enemy in their fashion be at one, and keep
hope while they may, and after hope still the hardihood to die free.'

SQ


 
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sean_q  
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 More options Oct 17 2012, 1:20 am
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien, alt.fan.tolkien
From: sean_q <no.s...@no.spam>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:20:33 -0800
Local: Wed, Oct 17 2012 2:20 am
Subject: Re: Churchill, Gandalf & Denethor
Further to my last, I'm finding interesting parallels with
other Churchill speeches such as this one from May 19, 1940:

C: Arm yourselves, and be ye men of valour, and be in readiness
for the conflict; for it is better for us to perish in battle
than to look upon the outrage of our nation and our altar.
[1 Maccabees 3:58–59]

G: For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall
perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands;
so that even if Barad-dur be thrown down, we shall not live
to see a new age. But this, I deem, is our duty. And better so
than to perish nonetheless – as we surely shall, if we sit here –
and know as we die that no new age shall be.'

Surely Tolkien was affected by these stirring speeches of 1940
when Britain was in its greatest danger. By his own account,
the RotK was written subsequently; that is, late in (or after)
the war:

: It was almost a year later when I went on and so came to Lothlorien
: and the Great River late in 1941. In the next year I wrote the first :
drafts of the matter that now stands as Book Three, and
: the beginnings of chapters I and III of Book Five; and there
: as the beacons flared in Anórien and Théoden came to Harrowdale
: I stopped.
:
: Foresight had failed and there was no time for thought.
: It was during 1944 that, leaving the loose ends and perplexities
: of a war which it was my task to conduct, or at least to report,
: I forced myself to tackle the journey of Frodo to Mordor.
: These chapters, eventually to become Book Four, were
: written and sent out as a serial to my son, Christopher,
: then in South Africa with the RAF. Nonetheless it took another
: five years before the tale was brought to its present end

Even though the author makes a point of denying a resemblance
between the War of the Ring and WW2...

: The crucial chapter, "The Shadow of the Past', is one of
: the oldest parts of the tale. It was written long before
: the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable
: disaster, and from that point the story would have developed
: along essentially the same lines, if that disaster had been
: averted. Its sources are things long before in mind, or in some
: cases already written, and little or nothing in it was modified
: by the war that began in 1939 or its sequels.
:
:
: The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process
: or its conclusion.

...I believe it _had_ to have influenced his writing somehow.
Both LotR and WW2 are widely considered (especially by the winners)
to be moral crusades; that is, struggles between Good (us) and Evil
(them).

And JRRT was right there on the ground in the same deadly peril
as the rest of the British. He had faced the Germans already,
on the Somme, and now their planes were overhead once again.
(If they had invaded I hate to think what they would have done
to him if captured.)

ps. If there are other comparisons between LotR and Churchill's
wartime speeches I couldn't find any. However I suppose there's
plenty of commentary on WW2 in relation to Tolkien. If anyone
knows any good site(s) on this topic I would be interested.

TIA, SQ


 
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sean_q  
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 More options Oct 18 2012, 3:28 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien, alt.fan.tolkien
From: sean_q <no.s...@no.spam>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 12:28:05 -0800
Local: Thurs, Oct 18 2012 4:28 pm
Subject: Re: Churchill, Gandalf & Denethor
Further to my furthered last: some material I found so far:

http://www.hoboes.com/Mimsy/Movies/battle-for-helms-deep-has-begun/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/article-2166085/How-Churchill-f...

Throughout both the legendary war and Britain in 1940 the prevailing
mood is one of looming threat. It's particularly well expressed
in "The Shadow of the Past".

SQ


 
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Steve Morrison  
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 More options Oct 21 2012, 3:18 pm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien, alt.fan.tolkien
From: Steve Morrison <rima...@toast.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:18:40 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sun, Oct 21 2012 3:18 pm
Subject: Re: Churchill, Gandalf & Denethor

sean_q wrote:

[snip list of Churchill/Tolkien parallels]

Interesting. Do you know of any Churchilian parallel for this
line spoken by Gandalf?

  [H]e has not built up his power by waiting until his enemies
  are secure, as we have done.

It has an obvious applicability to WWII.


 
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