CotW: Silm QS ch.19 Of Beren and Luthien
Troels Forchhammer
'Chapter of the Week' (CotW) project. For more information visit the
CotW homepage at <http://silenceisdefeat.org/~aft-rabt/CotW.html>.
Slightly delayed, I'm afraid, but at least there is still a lot of
Monday left -- in Hawaii ;-)
Chapter of the Week:
/The Silmarillion/ chapter 19, 'Of Beren and Lúthien'
The inscription I should like is:
EDITH MARY TOLKIEN
1889-1971
Lúthien
: brief and jejune, except for Lúthien, which says for me
more than a multitude of words: for she was (and knew she
was) my Lúthien.
[...]. I never called Edith /Lúthien/ - but she was the
source of the story that in time became the chief pan of
the /Silmarillion/. It was first conceived in a small
woodland glade filled with hemlocks at Roos in Yorkshire
(where I was for a brief time in command of an outpost of
the Humber Garrison in 1917, and she was able to live with
me for a while). In those days her hair was raven, her
skin clear, her eyes brighter than you have seen them, and
she could sing - and /dance/. But the story has gone
crooked, & I am left, and /I/ cannot plead before the
inexorable Mandos.
[/Letters/ #340, to Christopher Tolkien 11 July 1972]
At Tolkien's own grave, the inscription is similarly 'brief and
jejune,' except for 'Beren'. This says a lot about how important
this tale was to J.R.R. Tolkien, and how can one do justice to such
a tale?
Chapter Summary:
The Elven-king was the leader of the tribe that would later be known
as the Sea-elves, but during the Great March westward he was
distracted by the most beautiful music he had ever heard. He
followed the sound into the trees, and fell in a trance while his
people sought him in vain, finally leaving for the Blessed Realm.
The singer was his future wife, a woman of the race of the gods.
Together they stayed in Middle-earth, and became King and Queen of a
hidden realm in the forests of Beleriand. Their court was in the
Glittering Caves, whereto the visitor could only come by passing a
narrow bridge over the river.
They had a daughter, Tinúviel, who would dance and sing in the
forest, often to the music of Daeron the minstrel; she was the most
beautiful of all the Children of Arda ever.
Beren fled from the Enemy, Melkor, in the north and came into the
enchanted forest, protected though it were by the enchantments of
the Queen, he came upon Tinúviel as she danced in the forest, and he
loved her, and called after her, 'Tinúviel!'
In the end she brought him before her father, the King, who was
wroth that Beren would dare desire his daughter. In anger the King
demanded from Beren one of Fëanor's Silmarils from the Crown of the
Enemy in exchange for his daughter. Beren found the King cheap, but
nevertheless vowed to have in his hand a Silmaril when next he stood
before the King.
Despite the futility of the task, Beren set out to win a Silmaril
from the Enemy, but he is soon captured and imprisoned in the
stronghold of Melkor's lieutenant.
Tinúviel, worried about the fate of Beren, sought out her mother who
used her magic to see Beren and told Tinúviel of his captivity.
Decided she then to come to Beren's aid, but she revealed her
purpose to Daeron, seeking his aid, and he betrayed her, so that she
was herself imprisoned. In the greatest tree in the Hidden Forest
was made a house for her between the three boles of Hírilorn, the
beech.
Using her magic, Tinúviel caused her hair to grow long, and of the
hair she made a robe to hide her, which was also bound with spells
of sleep, and a rope, she made of the remaining hair, by which she
climbed from her high prison.
Seeking then to succour Beren, Tinúviel met the great hound, Huan,
with whom she teems up. At the stronghold of Melkor's lieutenant
Huan vanquished this jailor, who then fled in fear that his defeat
should become known to the Great Enemy; but Beren is set free to
join his beloved.
Then Beren and Tinúviel wandered for a time together, free of
worries and renewed their joy, but ultimately Beren wanted to see
Tinúviel once more safe in her father's realm, while he, Beren,
tried once more to win from the Iron Crown that jewel which her
father had asked for. But Tinúviel would not let him go alone, and
she came with him with Huan.
But Beren and Tinúviel must pass the gates alone, and Huan stayed
back, while Beren was disguised in the hame of a creature of the
stronghold where he was held captive and which Huan had defeated. At
the gates they were nearly revealed by the terrible doorward of
Melkor, fell Carcharoth, the wolf, but Tinúviel put the tormented
creature to sleep and the couple entered the stronghold of the
Enemy.
There Tinúviel again worked her magic as she danced and sang a song
of sleep, such that in the end even the mighty Melkor and all his
court must succumb and fall asleep. Then she awoke her companion who
pried from the Iron Crown one of Fëanor's Silmarils, but doing so
the dagger snapped and Melkor stirred, so the couple fled.
On the way out, they were confronted at the gate by the now awakened
Carcharoth; Beren confronted the wolf, but shockingly the wolf bit
of at the wrist the hand holding the hallowed jewel, whereupon
Carcharoth went mad by the power of the Silmaril and fled the
north.
The couple went back to the Elven-king, in whose realm all was grief
and silence -- unless it were where Carcharoth the dread-wolf had
come before them, but upon Tinúviel's return, light was once more
returned to the king's eyes. Beren, however, was now met with
demands on his to return with a Silmaril in his hand, and he held up
the stump of his arm, declaring that his hand, at that very moment,
clasped a Silmaril. Then was the Elven-king's heart finally turned
toward Beren, and hearing of their quest, he marvelled ever the more
at what they had achieved.
Hearing now, however, of the ravaging wolf, Beren understood that
his quest was not yet fulfilled, and together with the King, Huan
and Mablung [and, in later versions, with Beleg Strongbow] he set
out to slay the wolf. They succeed, and find the Silmaril inside the
wolf, proving Beren's story, but Beren fell beneath the wolf and was
mortally wounded.
Beren was carried back to the caves of the King and Queen, but died
shortly, after which Tinúviel soon followed him to Mandos. There she
did what Tolkien could not -- she pleaded before the inexorable
Mandos and lo, he was moved to pity. Tinúviel was given a choice,
and she chose to return to Middle-earth together with Beren, both of
them mortal.
Commentary and Questions:
The version above is told deliberately in such a way as to fit all
versions of the tale from the Lost Tale in BoLT2 to the story in the
published Silmarillion (there are some minor differences:
Carcharoth, for instance, was 'Karkaras' in the Lost Tale).
This approach has the advantage of focusing on both the constant
elements of the story as the central aspects, those without which the
story wouldn't be, but at the same time it emphasizes the
differences. All the missing parts from the published version are
added or changed later -- for instance:
Beren the Gnome (Noldo) -> Beren the man
In the Lost Tale Beren was one of the Gnomes -- a Noldo -- who were
enslaved by Morgoth, and had escaped. This doesn't make much of a
difference for most of the story, except for the very end where
Lúthien's choice is, of course, much affected.
Was it important for Tolkien that Beren was much beneath Lúthien?
Is that why he made Beren mortal, or was there some other reason for
that change?
No help for Beren -> Finrod Felagund
The whole part about Finrod's involvement in the story emerged in
the second version -- in the Lay of Leithian (to be read in HoMe3,
/The Lays of Beleriand/). Apart from providing a background for
involving Celegorm and Curufin, this also gives us the Spell-song
battle between Sauron and Felagund. Are these the reasons for
involving Felagund? Any other comments about Finrod Felagund's role
in the story?
Tevildo, Prince of Cats -> Sauron Gorthaur
Beren's prisoner in the Lost Tale is Tevildo, the Prince of Cats.
Apart from everything else, this allowed Tolkien to come up with
some rather nasty anti-cat comments ;-) Sauron emerged long before
LotR (in the Lay of Leithian he is initially 'Thu', becoming
'Gorthu' and 'Sauron', but essentially the character of Sauron
Gorthaur had then emerged), so it wasn't his role in the later ages
that forced Tolkien's hand. Any ideas why Tolkien introduced Sauron
into his mythology and into the story about Beren and Lúthien?
No Fëanorian involvement -> Celegorm and Curufin acting *bad*
The tale of Beren and Lúthien sports these two sons of Fëanor acting
at their, IMO, most despicable: first turning the elves of
Nargothrond against their king and his oath to Bëor's kin, then
capturing Lúthien and finally trying to kill Beren and capture
Lúthien once more.
In the early versions of the tale, there was an epilogue telling
what happened to Beren and Lúthien when they returned to
Middle-earth after their stint in Mandos.
In the Lost Tale they did great deeds:
'Aye, and they did more than dance, for their deeds
afterward were very great, and many tales are there
thereof that thou must hear, 0 Eriol Melinon, upon another
time of tale-telling. For those twain it is that stories
name i-Cuilwarthon, which is to say the dead that live
again, and they became mighty fairies in the lands about
the north of Sirion.
In the later versions, they withdrew themselves from mainstream
elven and human society and afterward involved themselves only
slightly in the Wars of Beleriand (intercepting the dwarves fleeing
with the Naglamir, for instance -- fortunately not even Celegorm and
Curufin dared come against Beren and Lúthien while she wore the
necklace with the Silmaril).
The common elements: the story as summarized above: why were these
elements (e.g. Huan and Hírilorn) all so important to Tolkien's
conception of his mythology that they survived through more than five
decades of rewritings?
For those who have read more versions than the one in the published
Silmarillion (which is essentially the one from the pre-LotR Qenta
Silmarillion published in HoMe 5 ,/The Lost Road/): which version do
you prefer: The lost tale? The Lay of Leithian? The Quenta
Noldorinwa? The Quenta Silmarillion? And, more importantly, why?
This almost concludes what I've had time to compile; there are many
questions that should be discussed in relation to the story of Beren
and Lúthien, and I encourage everyone to bring up their favourite
discussion-points about Beren and Lúthien.
That there is a connection between the Tale of Beren and Lúthien and
the Tale of John Ronald and Edith is obvious. After Edith's death on
the 29th of November 1971, Tolkien wrote the letter to Christopher
Tolkien from which I've quoted above, and to his other son, Michael,
he wrote:
I met the Lúthien Tinúviel of my own personal 'romance'
with her long dark hair, fair face and starry eyes, and
beautiful voice. And in 1934 she was still with me, and
her beautiful children. But now she has gone before Beren,
leaving him indeed one-handed, but he has no power to move
the inexorable Mandos, and there is no Dor Gyrth i
chuinar, the Land of the Dead that Live, in this Fallen
Kingdom of Arda, where the servants of Morgoth are
worshipped.
[/Letters/ #332 to Michael Tolkien, January 1972]
Apart from obviously influencing the description of Lúthien and the
first meeting between Lúthien and Beren, how else did 'the Tale of
John Ronald and Edith' influence the story of Beren and Lúthien?
As Lúthien didn't long survive Beren's (first) death, Tolkien didn't
long survive the death of his own Lúthien -- not quite two years
after Edith's death, Tolkien followed her:
Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the
world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put '[AFT]', '[RABT]' or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Such lissom limbs no more shall run
on the green earth beneath the sun;
so fair a maid no more shall be
from dawn to dusk, from sun to sea.
- From "The Lay of Leithian" (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Morgoth's Curse
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
It certainly does increase one's admiration of Christopher Tolkien's
resolve and willingness to attempt such a task.
>Commentary and Questions:
>
>The version above is told deliberately in such a way as to fit all
>versions of the tale from the Lost Tale in BoLT2 to the story in the
>published Silmarillion (there are some minor differences:
>Carcharoth, for instance, was 'Karkaras' in the Lost Tale).
>
>This approach has the advantage of focusing on both the constant
>elements of the story as the central aspects, those without which the
>story wouldn't be, but at the same time it emphasizes the
>differences. All the missing parts from the published version are
>added or changed later -- for instance:
If you were not previously a Wise Sage, Troels, you would be now! :-)
On behalf of all Tolkien fans, I salute you! ;-)
I have snipped much of the following and will reply to it when I have
more time. Here are just a few thoughts.
>
>
>Beren's prisoner in the Lost Tale is Tevildo, the Prince of Cats.
>Apart from everything else, this allowed Tolkien to come up with
>some rather nasty anti-cat comments ;-)
That draft has the dubious distinction of being the _only_ thing that
Tolkien ever wrote that actually made me cringe. It's like something
that you would expect to see in a bad adaption of a bad Disney film.
(If I wished to be generous, I suppose that I could consider it a very
faint echo of Kipling's "Just So" stories although I don't know
whether Tolkien ever read those tales.)
>
>No Fëanorian involvement -> Celegorm and Curufin acting *bad*
>
>The tale of Beren and Lúthien sports these two sons of Fëanor acting
>at their, IMO, most despicable: first turning the elves of
>Nargothrond against their king and his oath to Bëor's kin, then
>capturing Lúthien and finally trying to kill Beren and capture
>Lúthien once more.
I would consider their assault on Doriath to be their most despicable
act. Such few of the women and children that did not perish in the
assault of the Dwarves of Nogrod or escape with Elwing must surely
have died in the ruin of Doriath (including, of course, Dior's sons.)
>For those who have read more versions than the one in the published
>Silmarillion (which is essentially the one from the pre-LotR Qenta
>Silmarillion published in HoMe 5 ,/The Lost Road/): which version do
>you prefer: The lost tale? The Lay of Leithian? The Quenta
>Noldorinwa? The Quenta Silmarillion? And, more importantly, why?
I tend to prefer the published version of the Quenta Silmarillion, but
the Lay of Lethian certainly has some evocative dialogue which should
have been included.
My favorite quote from this chapter:
"But Beren laughed. 'For little price," he said, 'do Elven kings sell
their daughters: for gems, and things made by craft. But if this be
your will, Thingol, I will perform it. And when we meet again my hand
shall hold a Silmaril from the Iron Crown; for you have not looked the
last upon Beren son of Barahir.'"
Morgoth's Curse
Troels Forchhammer
Morgoth's Curse <morgoths...@nospam.yahoo.com> enriched us
with:
> On 24 Oct 2006 01:07:51 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>
<snip>
>> Chapter of the Week:
>> /The Silmarillion/ chapter 19, 'Of Beren and Lúthien'
>>
<snip>
>> Beren's prisoner in the Lost Tale is Tevildo, the Prince of Cats.
>> Apart from everything else, this allowed Tolkien to come up with
>> some rather nasty anti-cat comments ;-)
>
> That draft has the dubious distinction of being the _only_ thing
> that Tolkien ever wrote that actually made me cringe.
I can certainly follow you there -- the whole portrayal of the cats,
including the modern pets, as creatures of Morgoth seems oddly out of
place in the mythology -- the description of the Free Hounds is
balanced by both Carcharoth and the rumour of other wolves and hounds
in Morgoth's employ, but the cats are here described as an evil race
in and off themselves, which doesn't, IMO, fit the overall
description that is summarized in the words about the War of the Last
Alliance; "All living things were divided in that day, and some of
every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save
the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad."
Interestingly, Tevildo was actually already a feature of the
mythology before Tolkien was sent to France, making him an early
invention indeed.
> It's like something that you would expect to see in a bad adaption
> of a bad Disney film.
No way! Not even the hyenas in /The Lion King/ get such bad press --
Disney wouldn't dare to do something like that (and definitely not to
a popular house pet).
> (If I wished to be generous, I suppose that I could consider it
> a very faint echo of Kipling's "Just So" stories although I don't
> know whether Tolkien ever read those tales.)
I don't know either, and I wouldn't be surprised either way. I
haven't read the 'Just So' stories, but I'd agree on a faint
resemblance to the portrayal of some some of the occasional bad
animals in /The Jungle Book/.
>> No Fëanorian involvement -> Celegorm and Curufin acting *bad*
>>
>> The tale of Beren and Lúthien sports these two sons of Fëanor
>> acting at their, IMO, most despicable: first turning the elves of
>> Nargothrond against their king and his oath to Bëor's kin, then
>> capturing Lúthien and finally trying to kill Beren and capture
>> Lúthien once more.
>
> I would consider their assault on Doriath to be their most
> despicable act.
Possibly (at least they had no hand in the later attack at the Havens
since they both died in the attack on Doriath).
Ultimately it's a question of viewpoint and probably also personal
ethics, suppose. I was focusing on three aspects of their actions in
this chapter: first their capture of Lúthien was not related to the
oath, but was rather motivated by their personal desire for power,
and their natural cruelty. Secondly Lúthien was helpless against
them, whereas the other attacks were always at communities that had,
at least nominally, the ability to defend themselves. Lastly this is
the first time we see any of the Fëanorians attack other Eldar after
their father's death -- something that would certainly do much to re-
awaken their Oath and their Doom (if it did, indeed, ever sleep).
It might be interesting to discuss how Tolkien might have looked at
it. Would he have said that it all came of their taking the Fëanorian
Oath, and that therefore this was their most despicable act? There is
some evidence, I believe, that Tolkien (according to common dogma, as
I understand it) thought pride to be the worst of the deadly sins;
would that have influenced his views?
> Such few of the women and children that did not perish in the
> assault of the Dwarves of Nogrod or escape with Elwing must surely
> have died in the ruin of Doriath (including, of course, Dior's
> sons.)
The people of Doriath still had the ability to kill Celegorm, Curufin
and Caranthir, and even if 'the cruel servants of Celegorm seized
[Dior's] young sons and left them starve in the forest', I get the
impression that this was /after/ Celegorm's death (and possibly to
some extent in revenge of it), and so Celegorm would at most be
indirectly responsible for that particular act.
>> For those who have read more versions than the one in the
>> published Silmarillion (which is essentially the one from the
>> pre-LotR Qenta Silmarillion published in HoMe 5 ,/The Lost Road/):
>> which version do you prefer: The lost tale? The Lay of Leithian?
>> The Quenta Noldorinwa? The Quenta Silmarillion? And, more
>> importantly, why?
>
> I tend to prefer the published version of the Quenta Silmarillion,
> but the Lay of Lethian certainly has some evocative dialogue which
> should have been included.
The published version combines the Lay (both the 1920ies version and
the ca. 1950 version), the Quenta Silmarillion version (practically
unchanged since the thirties) and the Grey Annals. All in all I agree
that CJRT did a good job with it, though I think the story could,
with profit, have been told in a longer form (not, perhaps, in the
published /Silmarillion/, where it would have unbalanced the book,
but perhaps as a separate volume, or as a 'part II' of the book that
will now only feature the Narn).
> My favorite quote from this chapter:
>
> "But Beren laughed. 'For little price," he said, 'do Elven kings
> sell their daughters: for gems, and things made by craft. But if
> this be your will, Thingol, I will perform it. And when we meet
> again my hand shall hold a Silmaril from the Iron Crown; for you
> have not looked the last upon Beren son of Barahir.'"
Though I'd say it has to be in the companionship with Beren's words
upon his return to Menegroth:
And Thingol answered: 'What of your quest, and of your
vow?'
But Beren said: 'It is fulfilled. Even now a Silmaril is
in my hand.'
Knowing the story of this chapter, I am also inclined to turn to the
Lay:
OF LUTHIEN THE BELOVED.
Such lissom limbs no more shall run
on the green earth beneath the sun;
so fair a maid no more shall be
from dawn to dusk, from sun to sea.
Her robe was blue as summer skies,
but grey as evening were her eyes;
her mantle sewn with lilies fair,
but dark as shadow was her hair.
Her feet were swift as bird on wing,
her laughter merry as the spring;
the slender willow, the bowing reed,
the fragrance of a flowering mead,
the light upon the leaves of trees,
the voice of water, more then these
her beauty was and blissfulness,
her glory and her loveliness.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put '[AFT]', '[RABT]' or 'Tolkien' in subject.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom
of thought which they avoid.
- Soren Kierkegaard
William Cloud Hicklin
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> The published version combines the Lay (both the 1920ies version and
> the ca. 1950 version), the Quenta Silmarillion version (practically
> unchanged since the thirties) and the Grey Annals. All in all I agree
> that CJRT did a good job with it, though I think the story could,
> with profit, have been told in a longer form (not, perhaps, in the
> published /Silmarillion/, where it would have unbalanced the book,
> but perhaps as a separate volume, or as a 'part II' of the book that
> will now only feature the Narn).
While factually correct, this perhaps creates a distorted impression: as
published, Chapter 19 is overwhelmingly the text of Quenta Silmarillion
(1937), which was itself a prose retelling of the Lay. CT inserted a
couple of excerpts from the Lay, presumably so that this poem should not
be completely unknown (no inkling of HoME had yet crossed his mind). The
additions from the Grey Annals are minimal indeed: a total of five
sentences and phrases. Three of these reflect "foretellings" associated
with Finrod and Galadriel which postdate the LR, and one is the splendid
image of Beren "slinking in wolf's form" beneath Morgoth's throne.
As to "longer form:" unfortunately no such work could exist, except as a
Brian Herbert-esque exercise in pseudo-JRRT. Tolkien's two unfinished
goes at a "long Luthien" wound up in Chapter 19 (technically, these
portions aren't part of QS); there is nothing else in prose. By contrast
the Narn papers apparently contain, in scattered and unpolished form,
virtually all the elements of the complete Tale (we should know more come
April).
--
" I would even contend that a reaction against Tolkien's non-Modernist
prose style is just as influential in the rejection of Tolkien by
traditional literary scholars as is Modernist antipathy to the themes of
his work"
William Cloud Hicklin
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>> Beren's prisoner in the Lost Tale is Tevildo, the Prince of Cats.
>>> Apart from everything else, this allowed Tolkien to come up with
>>> some rather nasty anti-cat comments
>>
>> That draft has the dubious distinction of being the _only_ thing
>> that Tolkien ever wrote that actually made me cringe.
> I can certainly follow you there -- the whole portrayal of the cats,
> including the modern pets, as creatures of Morgoth seems oddly out of
> place in the mythology --
Probably a personal idiosyncracy. In one of the Letters, Tolkien
indicates that Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor.
"I generally rescue spiders I find in the bath, but cats- well, if I saw
one on fire I wouldn't piss on it to put it out." [Letter no. 666, The
Forged Letters of JRR Tolkien, unpublished]
Troels Forchhammer
<icelof...@mindspring.com> enriched us with:
> While factually correct, this perhaps creates a distorted
> impression:
Thanks.
I've never got around to look at the sources for the 'later' chapters
-- I'd planned to do it as the CotW project went along, but at the
moment I think I'm only at chapter 14 or 15 . . .
My impression was that material from both the Lay and the Grey annals
could be used to expand the current prose version (constructing a mixed
prose and poetic version -- not necessarily a good thing, though), but
if CJRT didn't find much use for the material in the Grey Annals, that
would probably, as you say, be impossible.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put '[AFT]', '[RABT]' or 'Tolkien' in subject.
If no thought
your mind does visit,
make your speech
not too explicit.
- Piet Hein, /The Case for Obscurity/
Morgoth's Curse
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>> It's like something that you would expect to see in a bad adaption
>> of a bad Disney film.
>
>No way! Not even the hyenas in /The Lion King/ get such bad press --
>Disney wouldn't dare to do something like that (and definitely not to
>a popular house pet).
Ever see "The Lady and the Tramp?" ;-)
>
>> (If I wished to be generous, I suppose that I could consider it
>> a very faint echo of Kipling's "Just So" stories although I don't
>> know whether Tolkien ever read those tales.)
>
>I don't know either, and I wouldn't be surprised either way. I
>haven't read the 'Just So' stories, but I'd agree on a faint
>resemblance to the portrayal of some some of the occasional bad
>animals in /The Jungle Book/.
I just finished rereading "The Jungle Book" the other night and,
interestingly, there is a resemblance to the characters of Tevildo and
Shere Khan. I wish I knew for certain whether Tolkien ever read
anything by Kipling. Does anybody know how likely that was? My
general impression is that Kipling was far more popular in America and
the colonies than he was in England during the early years of the 20th
century.
Morgoth's Curse
Emma Pease
I think Kipling was quite popular in England also. Certainly my
grandfather had a fairly full set of his works which he read (this
would have been in the 1930s). Tolkien would certainly have
encountered his writings though whether he like his writings is
another matter.
Kipling is an amazing writer. He might at times have been a product
of his age, but he could write. Try some of his non-children short
stories if you haven't already.
Emma
"Cities and Thrones and Powers"
Cities and Thrones and Powers
Stand in Time's eye,
Almost as long as flowers,
Which daily die:
But, as new buds put forth
To glad new men,
Out of the spent and unconsidered Earth
The Cities rise again.
This season's Daffodil,
She never hears
What change, what chance, what chill,
Cut down last year's;
But with bold countenance,
And knowledge small,
Esteems her seven days' continuance,
To be perpetual.
So Time that is o'er-kind
To all that be,
Ordains us e'en as blind,
As bold as she:
That in our very death,
And burial sure,
Shadow to shadow, well persuaded, saith,
"See how our works endure!"
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Dirk Thierbach
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
> I've never got around to look at the sources for the 'later' chapters
> -- I'd planned to do it as the CotW project went along, but at the
> moment I think I'm only at chapter 14 or 15 . . .
I'd be grateful if you or anyone else would like to share an overview
of the sources of each of the SIL chapters. I have been keeping notes
during the CotW threads, but not every chapter has been mentioned,
and I am too lazy to do it myself :-)
- Dirk
Troels Forchhammer
<news:2006120314424...@dthierbach.news.arcor.de> Dirk
Thierbach <dthie...@usenet.arcornews.de> spoke these staves:
>
<snip>
> I'd be grateful if you or anyone else would like to share an
> overview of the sources of each of the SIL chapters.
At the moment I have high hopes regarding William's post(s) in the
pompously titled thread -- if he would summarize the chapters as he
has done for the first ones, that would already be a huge help.
> I have been keeping notes during the CotW threads, but not every
> chapter has been mentioned, and I am too lazy to do it myself :-)
It is quite a bit of work, I'd say. For some of the chapters, I've
been trying to recreate the LQ series that Tolkien got typed out and
made emendations on in 1951 and 1958 (if I recall the years of the
typescripts correctly -- 'about that' anyway, and with emendations
being inserted following the typing, obviously).
But I wonder how we might go about a shared project of more detail
without breaking copyright issues. Could we, for instance, do
something of the order of this for the whole Silmarillion (as a kind
of follow-up project):
QS, ch. 9, 'Of the Flight of the Noldor'
Paragraph 1:
'After a time [15 words] for it was night' Aam §117
6 first words dropped.
while->time,
gods->Valar
'But the stars [71 words] at her feet' LQ2 later ch. 7 §1
3 sentences into §1
'. The winds'->'for the winds',
'driven . . . far away' - 'driven away . . .'
'Now Yavanna'->'Then Yavanna'
'Then many voices [29 words] it was not so' AAm §117
final sentence
'for it seemed'->'and it seemed'
Paragraph 2:
Whole paragraph, Aam §118 & LQ2 later ch. 7 §2 (no differences noted
between the two source texts)
'For Yavanna spoke'->'Yavanna spoke'
'hath gone hence'->'has passed away'
'liveth now'->'lives now'
'Lo! for even'->'Even for'
'mightiest'->'mightiest under Ilúvatar'
'some deed'->'some work'
'and can do so never again within Ëa' ->
'and within Eä I can do so never again'
'roots die'->'roots decay'
Etc. etc.
It would be a /huge/ work to undertake, I realize that, and before
even considering it any further, I'd want to know if it would be
possible within the scope of 'fair use' (the point would be that we
wouldn't be producing more than a few words of each paragraph).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put '[AFT]', '[RABT]' or 'Tolkien' in subject.
The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the
same level of thinking with which we created them.
- Albert Einstein
Matthew Woodcraft
> But I wonder how we might go about a shared project of more detail
> without breaking copyright issues. Could we, for instance, do
> something of the order of this for the whole Silmarillion (as a kind
> of follow-up project):
>
> QS, ch. 9, 'Of the Flight of the Noldor'
>
> Paragraph 1:
> 'After a time [15 words] for it was night' Aam §117
> 6 first words dropped.
> while->time,
> gods->Valar
> 'But the stars [71 words] at her feet' LQ2 later ch. 7 §1
> 3 sentences into §1
> '. The winds'->'for the winds',
> 'driven . . . far away' - 'driven away . . .'
> 'Now Yavanna'->'Then Yavanna'
> 'Then many voices [29 words] it was not so' AAm §117
> final sentence
> 'for it seemed'->'and it seemed'
[...]
> It would be a /huge/ work to undertake, I realize that, and before
> even considering it any further, I'd want to know if it would be
> possible within the scope of 'fair use' (the point would be that we
> wouldn't be producing more than a few words of each paragraph).
I don't see why this should exceed 'fair use' in theory. And I don't
think it would be a problem in practice: compare the material at
"Translations from the Elvish" at
<http://forum.barrowdowns.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16>,
which has been going for years.
-M-
William Cloud Hicklin
It would in fact be a monstrous project- I should know because I've
already started it. It also involves a great many judgment calls- when,
for example is a name-change "editorial", and when is it an insertion from
a later text? And there are some passages which wind up as a series of
nested brackets, 3 and 4 deep. I'm gradually establishing "conventions" to
govern these cases- but then each new rule often entails going back and
redoing what I've already done.
The problem with "fair use" is that sometimes even fragments are held to
exceed the boundaries, if piled up in sufficient number. It's also
perilous to assume that just because a website exists, it's legal.
Lawyers are expensive, and most websites just aren't worth the money it
would take to shut them down. My intention, once I get a reasonable
portion done in "final form", is to ask CJRT's permission to publish in
one of the Tolkien journals.
--
The Dodo never had a chance. He seems to have been invented for the sole
purpose of becoming extinct and that was all he was good for.