Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk6 Ch3 Mount Doom
Christopher Kreuzer
Book 6, Chapter 3: Mount Doom
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As Frodo says to Sam: "This is the end at last. On Mount Doom doom shall
fall." While not quite the end of the book, this chapter does see the
end of the Quest of Mount Doom, the quest to travel to Mount Doom and
destroy the Ring, the quest that Frodo and Sam undertook several months
and many chapters ago in Rivendell. This chapter covers several days,
and has two main characters, Sam and Frodo, struggling with the Ring
through the dreadful land of Mordor. They are still followed by Gollum,
who attacks them on the slopes of Mount Doom. The attack fails, Sam
spares Gollum, and Frodo enters the Mountain of Fire. The climactic
moment to the chapter comes when Frodo refuses to destroy the Ring and
instead claims it for his own. The Dark Lord (Sauron) becomes aware of
Frodo and: "the Power in Barad-dur was shaken, and the Tower trembled
from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown." Back in Mount Doom,
Gollum again attacks Frodo, this time successfully, and the Ring is
finally destroyed as Gollum overbalances on the edge of the Crack of
Doom, and falls into the Fire holding the Ring. Sam carries Frodo
outside, back onto the slopes of Mount Doom, amid scenes of immense
destruction as Sauron's power crumbles into dust. The chapter closes
with Frodo's words: "I am glad you are here with me. Here at the end of
all things, Sam."
Chapter Summary
===============
A) [Sam's assessment of the task - "something to do before the end"]
The first phase of this chapter continues from the previous chapter,
with Sam and Frodo resting in the shallow pit they ended up in after
escaping from the orcs they had been marching with in orc-disguise. They
hide in the pit, under the elven cloaks from Lorien. They have only
water to drink and lembas (elven waybread) to eat. After the forced
march with the orcs, they have ended up near the Isenmouthe (the
entrance to Udun) in the north-west corner of Mordor. Sam sees that the
wall of the Isenmouthe is no more than a furlong away northwards. The
Mountain (Mount Doom) is towards the south-east, and looks "every step
of fifty miles" away. Sam reckons it will take a week to get there.
As Sam considers how they will get there, we read this:
"...slowly a new dark thought grew in his mind. Never for long had hope
died in his staunch heart, and always until now he had taken some
thought for their return. But the bitter truth came home to him at last:
at best their provision would take them to their goal; and when the task
was done, there they would come to an end, alone, houseless, foodless in
the midst of a terrible desert. There could be no return."
[1]
Sam remembers that there was a job he felt he had to do when he started,
and now realises that it is likely to be this task: "to help Mr Frodo to
the last step and then die with him".
[This 'remembering' seems to refer to a comment by Sam back in the Shire
after meeting the Elves: "...after last night I feel different. I seem
to see ahead, in a kind of way. I know we are going to take a very long
road, into darkness; but I know I can't turn back. It isn't to see Elves
now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want - I don't rightly know what
I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead,
not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me."
Frodo's reply is also interesting: "I don't altogether. But I understand
that Gandalf chose me a good companion. I am content. We will go
together." (A Short Cut to Mushrooms). Well, here they are, together,
and indeed after a very long road, in the darkness of the Land of
Mordor.]
Sam also remembers his friends in the Shire, including Rosie Cotton, and
also remembers Gandalf, thinking that things went wrong from the moment
they lost Gandalf. But the despair doesn't last long, as Sam's feelings
change in an interesting passage:
"But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was turned to a new
strength. Sam's plain hobbit-face grew stern, almost grim, as the will
hardened in him, and he felt through all his limbs a thrill, as if he
was turning into some creature of stone and steel that neither despair
nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue."
[2]
This Sam sees the positive aspect of the rugged terrain. They will be
able to creep through it unseen. Though Sam also realises it will be an
evil road for the weary and exhausted. Frodo's only comment in this
section is his response to Sam's urging that they must start moving: "I
can manage it. I must."
B) [Journeying east by the orc-road - "a wall of night at the last end
of the world"]
This section describes four days of travel by Sam and Frodo. They
journey eastwards during the day, and the reader is told that the
servants and forces of Sauron are travelling by the secrecy of night
because "the winds of the world" had removed Sauron's veils (of shadow
and cloud), and Sauron is troubled by "tidings of bold spies". Also, the
marshalling of Sauron's forces is now practically complete, with all of
them marshalled in Udun. It seems that Sam and Frodo travel on the road
each day, and sleep near the road at night in some hollow or hiding
place. They are actually travelling on a road that leads to the Black
Tower itself - Barad-dur! They have little water left, and use the water
from orc-cisterns on the road, as well as the wonderful sustaining
powers of the lembas.
There are several synchronising references in this section, telling us
of the progress of the Host of the West that we last heard about in
battle at the Black Gate: "the Captains of the West had passed the
Cross-roads and set flames in the deadly fields of Imlad Morgul"; "as
the Ring went south and the banners of the kings rode north" [well,
actually, the Ring is going more east than south at the moment - but I
guess this is poetic license].
More notable is the description of the nearby Power:
"...far worse than all such perils was the ever-approaching threat that
beat upon them as they went: the dreadful menace of the Power that
waited, brooding in deep thought and sleepless malice behind the dark
veil about its Throne. Nearer and nearer it drew, looming blacker, like
the oncoming of a wall of night at the last end of the world."
[3]
And the effects on Frodo:
"the two wanderers came to an hour of blank despair"; "the time lay
behind them like an ever-darkening dream. All this last day Frodo had
not spoken, but had walked half-bowed, often stumbling, as if his eyes
no longer saw the way before his feet. Sam guessed that among all their
pains he bore the worst, the growing weight of the Ring, a burden on the
body and a torment to his mind. Anxiously Sam had noted how his master's
left hand would often be raised as if to ward off a blow, or to screen
his shrinking eyes from a dreadful Eye that sought to look in them. And
sometimes his right hand would creep to his breast, clutching, and then
slowly, as the will recovered mastery, it would be withdrawn."
This description is a lot like that in the chapter 'The Passage of the
Marshes', where Frodo is also exposed to the Dark Power of Barad-dur as
they approach Mordor from the North. The description of the hand
creeping towards the Ring is like that described at the base of the
Stairs of Cirith Ungol as the Witch-King passed near Sam and Frodo. Back
in this chapter, there is a horrible description of Frodo with feebly
twitching hands. And Sam's rest is disturbed as well, by dreams of
tortured beings and lights like gloating eyes. Once, when awoken
suddenly, Sam sees pale lights like eyes.
[4]
C) [Preparing to leave the orc-road - The Wheel of Fire I]
This section is very short, but has a lot of conversation and two
notable scenes. There is also an interesting quote about the nature of
the darkness coming from Mordor. As well as the fumes and clouds from
Mount Doom, there is this: "...as the Mountain drew near the air was
ever mirky, while out from the Dark Tower there crept the veils of
Shadow that Sauron wove about himself." There seems to be a physical
reality to the Shadow of Sauron, separate from the fumes from Mount
Doom. See also the other description above of the Dark Power like the
"oncoming of a wall of night".
[5]
The first interesting scene comes as Sam and Frodo consider the way they
must go, southwards over the "fuming, barren, ash-ridden land" between
the road and the Mountain. Frodo quails before this sight, and Sam,
though he knows the offer is useless, suggests that he should carry the
Ring for Frodo. Predictably, Frodo refuses and a "wild light" comes into
his eyes. As Frodo calms down, he explains sadly: "It is my burden, and
no one else can bear it. It is too late now, Sam dear. You can't help me
in that way again. I am almost in its power now. I could not give it up,
and if you tried to take it I should go mad."
[6]
Sam agrees, and suggests lightening the load by discarding most of the
orc-gear and other items. Sam finds it particularly hard to part with
his cooking gear. As Sam reminds Frodo of the rabbit stew he [Sam]
prepared in Ithilien, Frodo's torment is revealed by his inability to
properly remember such events and sights and smells:
"I know that such things happened, but I cannot see them. No taste of
food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or
flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark,
Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to
see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades."
[7]
Sam seems heartbroken by this, and kisses Frodo's hand and talks
haltingly for a while, then gets on with disposing of the orc-gear and
cooking pans. The only items Sam and Frodo keep are the elven cloaks,
elven rope, elven waybread, water bottle, pack, Sting, phial, and Sam's
box and the clothes Sam is wearing. Oh, and that Ring Frodo has of
course!
[8]
D) [Travelling south to Mount Doom - Thirst, temptations and internal
debates]
After that little conversational interlude, the style returns to
narrative overview and Sam and Frodo struggle southwards for two days
from the road to the mountain. We learn that the Nazgul are far away,
shadowing the march of the Captains of the West, an event that also much
occupies the mind of Sauron. Frodo does not speak much, saying: "I'm
thirsty". After leaving the road, they won't find any water and will
indeed be very thirsty.
There is a strange interlude where Sam, on the first night off the road,
is tortured by memories of water. He also debates with himself, and an
alter ego tries to persuade him to give up the quest, and finds other
problems, such as how to find the Cracks of Doom. Sam successfully
ignores this annoying voice in his head.
[9]
The final day of travel to Mount Doom is another description of tortured
travel. Very thirsty, a lot of pain, fumes in the air, but still these
two indomitable hobbits struggle onwards. They find it very hard to
sleep that night, partly due to cold and the anticipation of the final
effort tomorrow, though Sam's mind is clearer and no internal debates
take place in his head.
[10]
E) [Crawling up the slopes of Mount Doom - a sudden sense of urgency]
This section starts with Sam carrying Frodo up the slopes. It has the
brilliant line:
"Come, Mr. Frodo! I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you and it
as well."
There is a reminder of Frodo's toils: "his long pains, wound of knife,
and venomous sting, and sorrow, fear, and homeless wandering", as well
as the suggestions that Sam may have been given some strength to carry
Frodo, and a passing reference to the dear Shire "carrying a
hobbit-child pig-a-back in some romp on the lawns or hayfields of the
Shire" as a stark contrast to the evils of this dark land they are in.
There is also an extensive description of the structure of the Mountain.
A sloping base, with a steeper cone rising out of the base. There is
also a road that winds about the base and part of the cone, reaching the
Sammath Naur (Chambers of Fire), high up, but still far below the summit
of Mount Doom. We read that this road leads from Barad-dur to the
Mountain, and the Sammath Naur faces east towards the Window of the Eye.
Sam and Frodo find this road, but then suddenly we read: "Slowly the
light grew. Suddenly a sense of urgency which he did not understand came
to Sam. It was almost as if he had been called: 'Now, now, or it will be
too late!' He braced himself and got up. Frodo also seemed to have felt
the call. He struggled to his knees."
[11]
But there are a few more twists to the tale. Frodo feels a compulsion to
turn and look eastwards, and as the veils around the Black Tower part,
Frodo catches a sideways glimpse of the Eye of Sauron: "there stabbed
northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the
shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed." Even
though we read immediately that the Eye is _not_ turned towards Frodo
(and is looking northwards, well north-westwards, at the Captains of the
West), the effect is instant: "Frodo at that dreadful glimpse fell as
one stricken mortally. His hand sought the chain about his neck."
Luckily Sam is there to save the day and prevent Frodo putting on the
Ring. This event also prompts Sam to start moving again (he even thinks
Sauron has spotted them).
[12]
F) [The return of Gollum - The Wheel of Fire II]
Unfortunately, another twist to the tale crops up here. Gollum chooses
this time, or soon after, to make his return. The timescale also
switches to real-time here, with events described in detail from here
until the end of the chapter. Gollum jumps on Sam as he carries Frodo
along the winding road. Sam, Frodo and Gollum crash to the ground, and
Gollum attempts to take the Ring from Frodo. It seems that Gollum has
realised that they intend to destroy the Ring. Frodo wins his fight with
Gollum, because Gollum is, even more so than Sam and Frodo, a starved,
haggard thing; and also because Gollum's attempt to take the Ring
"roused the dying embers of Frodo's heart and will".
[13]
This prompts the famous 'wheel of fire'/'talking Ring' scene [though I
agree with the seeming consensus that Frodo and not the Ring is talking
here]. Frodo faces down and cows Gollum using the power of the Ring, and
Sam has another vision:
"'Down, down!' [Frodo] gasped, clutching his hand to his breast, so that
beneath the cover of his leather shirt he clasped the Ring. 'Down you
creeping thing, and out of my path! Your time is at an end. You cannot
betray me or slay me now.'"
"Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw
these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more
than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and
defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood
stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its
breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding
voice.
'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall
be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'"
[14]
Gollum backs away, the vision passes, and Sam steps forward between
Gollum and Frodo. Sam tells Frodo to carry on and Frodo, in a distant
and preoccupied mood, says "Yes, I must go on. Farewell, Sam! This is
the end at last. On Mount Doom doom shall fall. Farewell!" Frodo then
walks away slowly and erect.
[15]
Sam then prepares to battle with Gollum, but Gollum falls whimpering to
the ground and pleads for mercy, saying that he will turn to dust when
the Ring is destroyed. Sam seems to come close to killing Gollum, but
something restrains him. He curses Gollum and tells him to go away.
Gollum flees and Sam follows Frodo (now out of sight). Gollum stops and
warily follows Sam.
[16]
G) [At the Sammath Naur - "the heart of the realm of Sauron"]
As Sam, following the road, reaches the entrance to the Sammath Naur
(the Chambers of Fire wherein is the Crack of Doom), he tries to use
Galadriel's Phial. But it fails, reminding us that:
"He was come to the heart of the realm of Sauron and the forges of his
ancient might, greatest in Middle-earth; all other powers were here
subdued."
Sam then sees, by the red glare of the fires, Frodo standing on the edge
of a fissure across this internal passageway inside Mount Doom. This is
the Crack of Doom. But Frodo does not destroy the Ring. In a "voice
clearer and more powerful than Sam had ever heard him use", we hear that
Frodo's intentions have changed: "I have come. But I do not choose now
to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!" And
Frodo puts the Ring on his finger!
[17]
Sam is then hit from behind by Gollum. But more notably, we get an
immediate reaction from Sauron:
"The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all
shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; and the
magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and
all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare. Then his wrath
blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to
choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his
doom now hung."
[18]
We read that the armies of Sauron are left steerless, and the Nazgul are
sent speeding to Mount Doom to save the day. But it is too late. Gollum
has attacked Frodo, bitten the Ring (still on a finger but now glowing
as if with a living fire) from Frodo's hand, and, in a moment of
gloating evil, overbalanced while looking at the Ring, and fallen into
the Fire.
H) [Chapter epilogue - "Even Gollum may have something yet to do"]
Sam picks up Frodo and rushes outside, away from the immediate tumults
of Mount Doom. There is a descriptive passage where Sam has another
vision of the fall of Barad-dur:
"Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing
down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up,
until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled
and came foaming down upon the land."
[19]
Of more immediate concern is the destruction being wrought by Mount
Doom. A full-scale eruption seems to be in progress. The Nazgul are
destroyed by this (if not by the destruction of the Ring), and it seems
Sam and Frodo will be in peril. But this is not made clear until the
next chapter. Here, we merely have a gentle epilogue as Sam and Frodo
talk on the slopes of Mount Doom as the world crumbles around them.
[20]
The horrendous descriptions of Frodo's torments in this chapter are
rounded off with descriptions of a more normal Frodo:
"...there was Frodo, pale and worn, and yet himself again; and in his
eyes there was peace now, neither strain of will, nor madness, nor any
fear. His burden was taken away. There was the dear master of the sweet
days in the Shire."
[21]
Sam reacts with absolute joy. Frodo then recalls Gandalf's words and
closes the chapter with these words that sum up what has happened:
"But do you remember Gandalf's words: Even Gollum may have something yet
to do? But for him, Sam, I could not have destroyed the Ring. The Quest
would have been in vain, even at the bitter end. So let us forgive him!
For the Quest is achieved, and now all is over. I am glad you are here
with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam."
[22]
Comments and thoughts
=====================
A) Comments referenced to summary text
[1] This can't be the very _first_ moment Sam considered that they might
not return alive? Or maybe it is? What do you think?
[2] What caused this hardening of Sam's will? The lembas or something
else?
[3] Anyone want to go on a holiday to the Dark Tower? :-)
[4] Are these lights Gollum's eyes?
[5] There are many other descriptions of the Darkness that comes from
Mordor. How much of it is the fumes from Mount Doom, and how much of it
is these shadows woven by Sauron?
[6] What does Frodo mean when he says he "is almost in its power"? At
what point would Sam be forced to take the Ring from Frodo and continue
the quest? Probably only from his dead body. What if Frodo went mad or
succumbed to the Ring?
[7] What is this wheel of fire? Yes, I know it is the Ring, but it seems
to be a vision of the Ring. Is it related to the later description of
the Ring as "verily it seemed wrought of living fire" just before Gollum
falls into the Fire?
[8] Is Frodo only wearing the Elven cloak at this point? Sam is still
wearing his clothes, but Frodo seems to have only the cloak, elven rope
belt and Ring. Very ascetic.
[9] Is this description of Sam's mind the clarity of mind of the doomed
man? The peace of the man who will be executed in the morning?
[10] The final stages of the quest remind me of biblical scenes, such as
the temptation scenes in the desert. Are Sam's internal debates and the
thirst scenes meant to evoke such imagery?
[11] OK. Who is doing this calling to Sam and Frodo? This injecting of a
sense of urgency? Trying to synchronise the Ring destruction and the
Battle of the Morannon. My guess is Gandalf himself.
[12] I must apologise to Peter Jackson for doubting that he made up that
scene in the film where Frodo collapses under the influence of the Eye.
Pity they didn't keep the lighthouse beam pointing just to the northwest
(Tolkien's use of northwards is strange - it seems there is a large
difference between gazing north and gazing northwards).
[13] Dying embers of Frodo's heart and will? What is this about? Also,
exactly when did Gollum realise that Sam and Frodo intend to destroy the
Ring. Why not attack them earlier?
[14] Simple question. What is going on here with a talking wheel of
fire?
:-)
[15] Is Frodo still in control here? At what point does he lose control?
[16] Sam's mercy to Gollum. Easy or difficult? Important or not?
[17] Did Frodo fail or not? Consider what Tolkien says in Letter 191.
Someone should probably also talk about eucatastrophe, and whether this
is an example of it (or at least the bit where the dear old Frodo of the
Shire returns).
Some good starting points:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/6d0b16eb3bad19d9
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/8d57f813e801c501
In particular:
Letter #191: "If you re-read all the passages dealing with Frodo and the
Ring, I think you will see that not only was it quite impossible for him
to surrender the Ring, in act or will, especially at its point of
maximum power, but that this failure was adumbrated from far back. He
was honoured because he had accepted the burden voluntarily, and had
then done all that was within his utmost physical and mental strength to
do. He (and the Cause) were saved - by Mercy: by the supreme value and
efficacy of Pity and forgiveness of injury." [...] "No, Frodo 'failed'.
It is possible that once the ring was destroyed he had little
recollection of the last scene. But one must face the fact: the power of
Evil in the world is not finally resistible by incarnate creatures,
however 'good'; and the Writer of the Story is not one of us."
[18] Anyone else find Sauron's reaction funny?
[19] Ooh, look! Another "wave crashing on the land" image. Tolkien liked
using that dream he had. He used it for Numenor, and here we have
another similar set of images.
[20] Were the Nazgul destroyed by the eruption or destruction of the
Ring?
[21] Has Frodo really recovered? Does he change later and thoughts prey
on his mind, or are we (and Sam) deceived here into thinking that we
really have the old Frodo back?
[22] How crucial is Gollum to the tale? Do you feel pity for Gollum?
Could you forgive someone who has just bitten off your finger? Can you
understand the torment it seems Frodo and Gollum were suffering under?
Just how evil was this Ring?
B) General comments
- Timeline
The timeline is made clear from the Tale of Years and scattered
references in the text of this chapter. The timeline goes from the night
of the 18th/19th March when Sam and Frodo escape from the orcs, to 25th
March when the Ring goes into the Fire. At least six full days and
nights and part of a seventh.
Third Age 3019
March 19 - Frodo and Sam escape the orcs during the night of the 18th
March or early morning on the 19th March. They rest until morning, then
spend the rest of the day travelling east by, and then on, an orc road.
During this day, the Host of the Captains of the West set fire to the
deadly fields of Imlad Morgul and start journeying north through
Ithilien.
March 20-22 - Frodo and Sam continue journeying east. It is four days
since they escaped from the orcs (19th,20th,21st,22nd March) and March
22 is the day of the 'dreadful nightfall' and also the Host of the West
"nears the end of the living lands".
March 23 - From the main text, it seems to me that Sam and Frodo
actually turn southwards as the day of March 23 dawns. Though the Tale
of Years says it is March 22, this comes _after_ the description of the
'dreadful nightfall', which I think is dusk on March 22 (from the 'four
days' bit), and they don't actually turn south until after they sleep
that night. This is borne out by the fact that Frodo and Sam are said to
cast away their gear on March 23, and this is as they are leaving the
road and heading south. The Host of the West pass out of Ithilien and
Aragorn dismisses the faint-hearted.
March 24 - Sam and Frodo halted near Mount Doom on the evening of March
23. As the day of March 24 dawns they carry on, and as the day ends they
finish the two-day trek from the road to the foot of Mount Doom. The
Host of the West is camped outside the Black Gate.
March 25 - It seems that most of this day (all the days are short under
the shadows of Mordor) is taken up with climbing up Mount Doom and the
scenes inside the Mountain as the Ring is destroyed. From the next
chapter ("the sun gleamed red") it seems that the destruction of the
Ring took place near sunset. It seems the the Battle of the Morannon was
joined in the morning or early afternoon. These timings on March 25 are
not entirely clear.
- Maps and Geography
The geography of Sam and Frodo's journey in Mordor is a lot clearer if
you have the two-page map of Rohan, Gondor and western Mordor, as I have
at the front of my edition of 'The Return of the King'. The note in the
Tale of Years tells us that the orcs that Sam and Frodo march with came
from Durthang and were heading to Udun. The description in the previous
chapter, of a road heading east and then north, matches the bit of the
road from Durthang (the fortress west of Udun) before it meets the road
from Cirith Ungol (and Morgul) to Udun. Sam and Frodo are force-marched
northwards until they escape near the Isenmouthe. The road they use, or
travel near to, in this chapter, is the one shown on the map going from
Udun to Barad-dur. This road is quite a way north of Mount Doom, and the
bit they travel on, or near, runs due east. They leave this road due
north of Mount Doom, and travel south over the rugged terrain of
Gorgoroth. Mount Doom is also shown as being due west of Barad-dur.
Effectively, from Cirith Ungol, Sam and Frodo travel in a wide, looping,
n-shaped route to Mount Doom, most definitely not a direct line!
Using the scale, the journey from the Isenmouthe to Mount Doom, as
travelled by Sam and Frodo, is about 60 miles. Sam's direct-line
estimate of 50 miles is exactly correct. They travelled about 37 miles
on, or near, the eastwards orc-road in four days. They travelled about
23 miles over the more rugged off-road terrain to the foot of Mount Doom
in 2 days. The delay and off-road travel on the first day of travel
(March 19) might explain this faster travel in the final two days. Also,
discarding the luggage might also explain this, as the text says: "In
the first marches they went further and faster than he [Sam] had hoped.
The land was rough and hostile, and yet they made much progress, and
ever the Mountain drew nearer." I would also speculate that they were
slowed on the eastward road by the ever-brooding presence of the Power
in the Dark Tower.
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
"No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree
or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked
in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire.
I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades." (Frodo
speaking to Sam in Mordor - 'Mount Doom')
Mark Edelstein
Tolkien journeys into the layer of Dark lords. I contend that Tolkien
kept sub-conciously (maybe conciously too-there is the whole last fairy
tale motif) injecting LOTR with Silmarillion parallels, almost as if he
knew it wouldn't publish it.
It's too bad we never get some proper UT detailed "harsh journeys" from
the Silmarillion.
I'd also contend any act of mercy counts, given the theology that
weaves its way into the story.
AC
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
<snip excellent summary, good job Christopher>
>
> Comments and thoughts
>=====================
>
> A) Comments referenced to summary text
>
> [1] This can't be the very _first_ moment Sam considered that they might
> not return alive? Or maybe it is? What do you think?
I think it's quite possible that Sam really didn't understand what was fully
involved and the possible consequences of the quest until now.
>
> [2] What caused this hardening of Sam's will? The lembas or something
> else?
I think this is the best example we'll ever see of that Hobbitesh toughness
which Gandalf alluded to so long before. This must have been how the
Hobbits behaved in the face of dire circumstances.
>
> [3] Anyone want to go on a holiday to the Dark Tower? :-)
Heh.
>
> [4] Are these lights Gollum's eyes?
Good question! I've often wondered this myself.
>
> [5] There are many other descriptions of the Darkness that comes from
> Mordor. How much of it is the fumes from Mount Doom, and how much of it
> is these shadows woven by Sauron?
Obviously there is both present. I guess it's little wonder that Mordor is
the Land of Shadow.
>
> [6] What does Frodo mean when he says he "is almost in its power"? At
> what point would Sam be forced to take the Ring from Frodo and continue
> the quest? Probably only from his dead body. What if Frodo went mad or
> succumbed to the Ring?
Judging by Frodo behaves further on, I suspect that it would have to be
death or severe injury. I think Frodo has gained sufficient stature to be
able to use the Ring's real powers (some may disagree on the nature
confrontation between Frodo and Gollum at the foot of Mount Doom, of
course).
>
> [7] What is this wheel of fire? Yes, I know it is the Ring, but it seems
> to be a vision of the Ring. Is it related to the later description of
> the Ring as "verily it seemed wrought of living fire" just before Gollum
> falls into the Fire?
I suppose, but I also think that it's very good imagery for the effect its
having on Frodo, a burden and a threat, a terrifying symbol of terrible
power.
>
> [8] Is Frodo only wearing the Elven cloak at this point? Sam is still
> wearing his clothes, but Frodo seems to have only the cloak, elven rope
> belt and Ring. Very ascetic.
He seems to barely manage with that.
>
> [9] Is this description of Sam's mind the clarity of mind of the doomed
> man? The peace of the man who will be executed in the morning?
Yes, I think this is the explanation. He's beyond the point of no return
now. There's only way to go, and that's ahead.
>
> [10] The final stages of the quest remind me of biblical scenes, such as
> the temptation scenes in the desert. Are Sam's internal debates and the
> thirst scenes meant to evoke such imagery?
I suppose there's something of the feel of the Exodus, though on a much
reduced time scale.
>
> [11] OK. Who is doing this calling to Sam and Frodo? This injecting of a
> sense of urgency? Trying to synchronise the Ring destruction and the
> Battle of the Morannon. My guess is Gandalf himself.
Gandalf seemed awfully busy in these final moments. I shy away from
guessing at these scenes where there's the potential for outside
intervention. If someone bent my arm, I'd bet it was the Valar themselves,
seeing the Hobbits in such hard shape, giving them some strength and resolve
for the final push.
>
> [12] I must apologise to Peter Jackson for doubting that he made up that
> scene in the film where Frodo collapses under the influence of the Eye.
> Pity they didn't keep the lighthouse beam pointing just to the northwest
> (Tolkien's use of northwards is strange - it seems there is a large
> difference between gazing north and gazing northwards).
>
> [13] Dying embers of Frodo's heart and will? What is this about? Also,
> exactly when did Gollum realise that Sam and Frodo intend to destroy the
> Ring. Why not attack them earlier?
I think I broached this one myself not so long ago. Gollum clearly knows
enough Ringlore to know that the Ring would be destroyed if thrown into
Sammath Naur. Yet wouldn't it have been just as bad for Gollum if Sauron
had reclaimed it? As I said before, I think Gollum's intent all along was
to betray Frodo and take the Ring, and I doubt he had any idea until he
caught up with them at Mount Doom that Frodo's true intent might be to
destroy the Ring.
>
> [14] Simple question. What is going on here with a talking wheel of
> fire?
>
>:-)
"The number you have dialed is not in service. Please hang up and try your
call again."
>
> [15] Is Frodo still in control here? At what point does he lose control?
I don't think Frodo loses control until he's in Sammath Naur.
>
> [16] Sam's mercy to Gollum. Easy or difficult? Important or not?
I don't think Sam had the strength to do anything more to Gollum. Obviously
important (if Providence has any part in what happens). If Gollum were
dead, then Sam would have been the only one left who could try to stop Frodo
when he claimed the Ring. I simply cannot see Sam throwing Frodo into
Sammath Naur.
>
> [17] Did Frodo fail or not? Consider what Tolkien says in Letter 191.
> Someone should probably also talk about eucatastrophe, and whether this
> is an example of it (or at least the bit where the dear old Frodo of the
> Shire returns).
>
> Some good starting points:
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/6d0b16eb3bad19d9
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/8d57f813e801c501
>
> In particular:
>
> Letter #191: "If you re-read all the passages dealing with Frodo and the
> Ring, I think you will see that not only was it quite impossible for him
> to surrender the Ring, in act or will, especially at its point of
> maximum power, but that this failure was adumbrated from far back. He
> was honoured because he had accepted the burden voluntarily, and had
> then done all that was within his utmost physical and mental strength to
> do. He (and the Cause) were saved - by Mercy: by the supreme value and
> efficacy of Pity and forgiveness of injury." [...] "No, Frodo 'failed'.
> It is possible that once the ring was destroyed he had little
> recollection of the last scene. But one must face the fact: the power of
> Evil in the world is not finally resistible by incarnate creatures,
> however 'good'; and the Writer of the Story is not one of us."
Frodo very clearly failed, and just as clearly (from Tolkien's comments in
Letters) that was unavoidable. Frodo had got the Ring to Sammath Naur, but
at that point the Ring was irresistable. I don't think anyone; Gandalf or
Galadriel included, could have withstood it in those final moments.
>
> [18] Anyone else find Sauron's reaction funny?
No, I find it sad in an odd sort of way, sort of how I find Denethor's last
moments or how Saruman ended up as sad. These talented people, all three
possessing such great gifts, and all those gifts wasted. Sauron is clearly
the greatest dweller in Middle Earth, an Ainu that must have neared the
Valar in power and knowledge, fooled by a cheap ruse and his own pride and
inability to understand his enemy.
>
> [19] Ooh, look! Another "wave crashing on the land" image. Tolkien liked
> using that dream he had. He used it for Numenor, and here we have
> another similar set of images.
I think it ties the whole together very nicely. The Lord of the Rings is
the perfect end to the mythos.
>
> [20] Were the Nazgul destroyed by the eruption or destruction of the
> Ring?
Hard to say. The Witch King was brought down prior to the Ring's
destruction, but that was by a bit of Numenorean wizardy. My hunch is that
their ultimate destruction came with the Ring falling in the Fire.
>
> [21] Has Frodo really recovered? Does he change later and thoughts prey
> on his mind, or are we (and Sam) deceived here into thinking that we
> really have the old Frodo back?
I think we are fooled. For the next little bit we are lead to believe that
the only scar of his trials was the missing finger.
>
> [22] How crucial is Gollum to the tale? Do you feel pity for Gollum?
> Could you forgive someone who has just bitten off your finger? Can you
> understand the torment it seems Frodo and Gollum were suffering under?
> Just how evil was this Ring?
Well Gollum clearly wasn't a terribly decent fellow even before he killed
Deagol to get the Ring. I think about Gandalf's statement that what
happened to Gollum might have happened to Hobbits that he knew. I always
picture Lotho Sackville-Baggins, another stinker who I could well believe
might have suffered the same fate as Smeagol.
Gollum is clearly pitiable. While he was a nasty little bastard before,
he's twisted and warped. He's psychologically damaged. The Ring has
destroyed the Hobbit, leaving behind this awful creature that literally
lives to retake his Precious.
<snip>
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Georg Schönegger
>
> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
> Book 6, Chapter 3: Mount Doom
>
> To read previous Chapter of the Week discussions, or to sign up to
> introduce a future chapter (some of the Appendices are still available),
> go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org
>
> As Frodo says to Sam: "This is the end at last. On Mount Doom doom shall
> fall."
Maybe off-topic here, but i asked this question once before in this ng
and got no answer: WHY exactly was mount doom called mount doom? (same
for the crack!)
the obvious source would be the connection with the one ring, but
according to index A the mountain was renamed 'Amon Amarth' about 3429
SA when it burst into flame and sauron attacked the numenoreans. until
then, it had been just 'orodruin', the 'mountain of flame' - a sensible
and quite unspectacular name for an active volcano. so, what doom were
they talking about?
Georg
Georg Schönegger
>
> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
> Book 6, Chapter 3: Mount Doom
>
> To read previous Chapter of the Week discussions, or to sign up to
> introduce a future chapter (some of the Appendices are still available),
> go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org
>
> As Frodo says to Sam: "This is the end at last. On Mount Doom doom shall
> fall."
Maybe off-topic here, but i asked this question once before in this ng
ne...@redbadge.co.uk
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
> Book 6, Chapter 3: Mount Doom
>
> [1] This can't be the very _first_ moment Sam considered that they might
> not return alive? Or maybe it is? What do you think?
>
Sam has been living "A better life through denial"?
> [2] What caused this hardening of Sam's will? The lembas or something
> else?
"Thought must be the harder, heart be the keener,
mind must be the greater, while our strength lessens."
>
> [3] Anyone want to go on a holiday to the Dark Tower? :-)
Is that like Alton Towers? <http://www.alton-towers.co.uk/>
>
> [4] Are these lights Gollum's eyes?
Yessss.
[snip]
>
> [11] OK. Who is doing this calling to Sam and Frodo? This injecting of a
> sense of urgency? Trying to synchronise the Ring destruction and the
> Battle of the Morannon. My guess is Gandalf himself.
>
I'm afraid I don't see the need for all this external angelic prodding
(though that may be what Tolkien intended). Any prodding by Gandalf
would imply he knew all the time just what was happening to Frodo and
Sam, which I don't think should be the case, even with Gandalf 2.0. In
fact I think it a mistake that Tolkien has Gandalf do just that (prod
Frodo) way back at the end of Book Two. It works just as well with the
prompting coming from an internal source.
[snip]
>
> [18] Anyone else find Sauron's reaction funny?
>
What's the Valarin for "Oh, sh*t!"?
>
> [20] Were the Nazgul destroyed by the eruption or destruction of the
> Ring?
Clearly by the destruction of the ring. As with the other rings, all
that was done with them would be undone by the One Ring's destruction.
--
Pete Gray
Say No to ID Cards <http://www.no2id.net>
<http://www.redbadge.co.uk/no2idcards/>
AC
ne...@redbadge.co.uk <ne...@redbadge.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <eEPWd.30041$8B3....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
> spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>
>> Ring?
>
> Clearly by the destruction of the ring. As with the other rings, all
> that was done with them would be undone by the One Ring's destruction.
That begs the question as to what happened to the Witch King.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Georg Schönegger
>
> Perhaps because the eruption of Mount Doom was a sign that Sauron was
> active again in Middle Earth.
>
> --
> Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
> "Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
> astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
> Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
sounds good, but then what does 'crack of doom" mean?
i always had the impression that tolkien christened them because of
their part in the ring-story (including the destruction), but this is,
of course, only an external reason. the in-story-reason is not obvious
to me at all.
georg
Larry Swain
Pete Gray wrote:
> In article <slrnd2pcjh.96t....@aaron.clausen>,
> mightym...@hotmail.com says...
> Well, apart from the WK (and indeed including him), does it say anywhere
> that the Nazgul can't be just killed? Certainly holding, and even
> wearing the One Ring doesn't make you invulnerable. So my guess is that
> the WK was offed by Eowyn (with an assist from Merry), and the rest
> 'crackled, withered, and went out' when the power of the rings to extend
> their lives was terminated. YMMV.
Certainly doesn't say they can be offed either. And there's offed and
then there's offed--meaning there is defeated and made impotent and
there is "dead, killed".
Henriette
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip excellent summary, good job Christopher>
> >
> > [2] What caused this hardening of Sam's will? The lembas or
something else?
>
> I think this is the best example we'll ever see of that Hobbitesh
toughness
> which Gandalf alluded to so long before. This must have been how the
> Hobbits behaved in the face of dire circumstances.
>
"But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was turned to a new
strength":
Hobbitesh toughness was being lured out, as is the toughness of a human
being when hope dies and he or she has to choose between swimming
against the overstrong currant or drowning.
> > [4] Are these lights Gollum's eyes?
>
> Good question! I've often wondered this myself.
I think it is strongly suggested they are, here as well as at many
different other points throughout the tale.
>
> > [11] OK. Who is doing this calling to Sam and Frodo? This injecting
of a
> > sense of urgency? Trying to synchronise the Ring destruction and
the
> > Battle of the Morannon. My guess is Gandalf himself.
>
> Gandalf seemed awfully busy in these final moments. I shy away from
> guessing at these scenes where there's the potential for outside
> intervention. If someone bent my arm, I'd bet it was the Valar
themselves,
> seeing the Hobbits in such hard shape, giving them some strength and
resolve
> for the final push.
I opt for personal intuition.
>
> > [22] How crucial is Gollum to the tale?
Very crucial, and he would have been dearly missed, the loathsome
creature.
> > Do you feel pity for Gollum?
Very much.
> > Could you forgive someone who has just bitten off your finger? Can
you
> > understand the torment it seems Frodo and Gollum were suffering
under?
Yes. I think most people can understand dependency and addiction
enormously magnified, and even that it is one of the many reasons LOTR
appeals to us.
(snip)
Henriette
Yuk Tang
news:slrnd2nr3v.800....@aaron.clausen:
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> [5] There are many other descriptions of the Darkness that comes
>> from Mordor. How much of it is the fumes from Mount Doom, and how
>> much of it is these shadows woven by Sauron?
>
> Obviously there is both present. I guess it's little wonder that
> Mordor is the Land of Shadow.
I've always felt that the physical shadows came from Mount Doom, but
the extraordinarily oppressive atmosphere, beyond that caused by mere
lack of light, was caused by Sauron.
I read some of Martinez's essays recently, and in them he describes
the fortresses held by Gondor inside Mordor during the early 3rd Age.
What was Mordor like back then, when Sauron was inactive? Martinez
surmises that much of the supplies must have come from Ithilien,
resulting in an economic boom for that region, but were the garrisons
able to supplement this with food grown inside Mordor? After all, if
Mount Doom was able to create a land of dust in Gorgoroth, its
aftermath must also have been impressively fertile during those
periods when it wasn't spewing.
>> [13] Dying embers of Frodo's heart and will? What is this about?
>> Also, exactly when did Gollum realise that Sam and Frodo intend
>> to destroy the Ring. Why not attack them earlier?
>
> I think I broached this one myself not so long ago. Gollum
> clearly knows enough Ringlore to know that the Ring would be
> destroyed if thrown into Sammath Naur. Yet wouldn't it have been
> just as bad for Gollum if Sauron had reclaimed it?
At least Precious would still be alive. This is one of the points
where I think that Jackson's changes actually made thematic sense,
that Gollum values the Ring more than himself. I think that either
you, or Flame, made the same point some time ago, when you said that
the worst hurt that Frodo suffered was the destruction of the Ring.
Arwen clearly perceived this, and gave him the jewel as a
replacement.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Yuk Tang
news:422D57E2...@aon.at:
> sounds good, but then what does 'crack of doom" mean?
> i always had the impression that tolkien christened them because
> of their part in the ring-story (including the destruction), but
> this is, of course, only an external reason. the in-story-reason
> is not obvious to me at all.
Because it was where the One Ring was made? Martinez's exploration of
just how widely known Ringlore was makes for interesting reading.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Yuk Tang
news:qdednSg8dP9...@rcn.net:
Perhaps the physical form was killed by Eowyn and Merry, but the
spirit stayed in the Halls, exchanging plesantries with Feanor, until
the One was destroyed.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Jon Hall
Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>That begs the question as to what happened to the Witch King.
>
> Perhaps the physical form was killed by Eowyn and Merry, but the
> spirit stayed in the Halls, exchanging plesantries with Feanor, until
> the One was destroyed.
The WK was human, so not the Halls....
Jon.
AC
>
> I read some of Martinez's essays recently, and in them he describes
> the fortresses held by Gondor inside Mordor during the early 3rd Age.
> What was Mordor like back then, when Sauron was inactive? Martinez
> surmises that much of the supplies must have come from Ithilien,
> resulting in an economic boom for that region, but were the garrisons
> able to supplement this with food grown inside Mordor? After all, if
> Mount Doom was able to create a land of dust in Gorgoroth, its
> aftermath must also have been impressively fertile during those
> periods when it wasn't spewing.
Do you really get the impression that Gorgoroth was ever a fertile place?
As to Mr. Martinez, the less said the better. This sounds like a David
Day-ism to me.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Michael Ikeda
news:Xns9613CA2D49DB2...@130.133.1.4:
Or, more simply, because it's a big crack inside of Mount Doom.
the softrat
<g.scho...@aon.at> wrote:
>
>sounds good, but then what does 'crack of doom" mean?
>i always had the impression that tolkien christened them because of
>their part in the ring-story (including the destruction), but this is,
>of course, only an external reason. the in-story-reason is not obvious
>to me at all.
>
anyway? And it sure aint no 'dorf' neither!
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Mr Bullfrog says, "Time's fun, when you're having flies!"
Mark Edelstein
> Do you really get the impression that Gorgoroth was ever a fertile
place?
> As to Mr. Martinez, the less said the better. This sounds like a
David
> Day-ism to me.
>
> --
I'm pretty sure in the Appendices it mentions that Mordor was barren
even at the height of Gondor's power. It never does mention who lived
around Nurn at the time.
Yuk Tang
news:slrnd2s975.b6g....@aaron.clausen:
> Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> I read some of Martinez's essays recently, and in them he
>> describes the fortresses held by Gondor inside Mordor during the
>> early 3rd Age. What was Mordor like back then, when Sauron was
>> inactive? Martinez surmises that much of the supplies must have
>> come from Ithilien, resulting in an economic boom for that
>> region, but were the garrisons able to supplement this with food
>> grown inside Mordor? After all, if Mount Doom was able to create
>> a land of dust in Gorgoroth, its aftermath must also have been
>> impressively fertile during those periods when it wasn't spewing.
>
> Do you really get the impression that Gorgoroth was ever a fertile
> place?
Nope, but since much of the desolation came from Orodruin, I'd have
thought that the usual volcanic conditions apply. Ie. sterility in
the first instance, extreme fertility after. Unless it was active
throughout the 3rd Age.
> As to Mr. Martinez, the less said the better. This sounds
> like a David Day-ism to me.
I'm pretty sure the Gondorian fortresses inside Mordor are Tolkien
text, either JRRT or CJRT. Which leads to the question of just how
they were maintained.
--
Cheers, ymt.
AC
> AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:slrnd2s975.b6g....@aaron.clausen:
>> On 8 Mar 2005 19:50:28 GMT,
>> Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I read some of Martinez's essays recently, and in them he
>>> describes the fortresses held by Gondor inside Mordor during the
>>> early 3rd Age. What was Mordor like back then, when Sauron was
>>> inactive? Martinez surmises that much of the supplies must have
>>> come from Ithilien, resulting in an economic boom for that
>>> region, but were the garrisons able to supplement this with food
>>> grown inside Mordor? After all, if Mount Doom was able to create
>>> a land of dust in Gorgoroth, its aftermath must also have been
>>> impressively fertile during those periods when it wasn't spewing.
>>
>> Do you really get the impression that Gorgoroth was ever a fertile
>> place?
>
> Nope, but since much of the desolation came from Orodruin, I'd have
> thought that the usual volcanic conditions apply. Ie. sterility in
> the first instance, extreme fertility after. Unless it was active
> throughout the 3rd Age.
I don't know, but I seem to recall that it was pretty clear that the region
around Mount Doom was sort of a permanent desolation. I'll have to hunt
down a reference.
>
>
>> As to Mr. Martinez, the less said the better. This sounds
>> like a David Day-ism to me.
>
> I'm pretty sure the Gondorian fortresses inside Mordor are Tolkien
> text, either JRRT or CJRT. Which leads to the question of just how
> they were maintained.
The distance between Mordor and Gondor is pretty darn negligible. I doubt
it would be that difficult at the height of Gondor's power to transport
supplies. The Anduin flows fairly close by.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Yuk Tang
news:slrnd2t4pg.bn2....@aaron.clausen:
IIRC all mentions of the land inside Mordor, with the exception of
the fields around Nurnen, are desolate. If so, how was it caused,
even in Sauron's absence? In RL volcanic soil is prime farmland,
unless the volcano was still active. If Orodruin was big enough to
adversely affect Gorgoroth, it should be big enough to positively
affect it too. And it was over a thousand years between the fall of
Sauron and the second fall of Minas Ithil, so nature should have had
ample opportunity to recover. Was it a lack of rainfall? If so, was
there such a marked difference between Ithilien (land of milk and
honey) and Gorgoroth? There doesn't seem to be that much difference
in distance, certainly not enough to create two such different
environments.
Tolkien has been impressively observant of geography elsewhere in his
writings, especially concerning Eriador, so I think it's fair to
raise questions. Who knows, perhaps they can be answered.
>>> As to Mr. Martinez, the less said the better. This sounds
>>> like a David Day-ism to me.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure the Gondorian fortresses inside Mordor are
>> Tolkien text, either JRRT or CJRT. Which leads to the question
>> of just how they were maintained.
>
> The distance between Mordor and Gondor is pretty darn negligible.
> I doubt it would be that difficult at the height of Gondor's power
> to transport supplies. The Anduin flows fairly close by.
There are the mountains in the way. Forts near the northern passes
would probably go via Dagorlad (via what we call the Morannon, but
the name might not have been used back then), while ones on the
western edges would use Minas Ithil. What about the ones deeper in?
If Mordor really were such a forbidding place, it would cost supplies
simply to get supplies to the interior. Cf. modern estimates of how
viable it is to supply fuel via land, or Sun Tzu's maxim that
supplying a war from the homeland ruins the nation.
As for Martinez: I've been called names by him before, but I respect
his Tolkien scholarship (even though he was wrong on that occasion).
If nothing else, his articles are certainly interesting, and as far
as I can check with Steuard and Stan's writings, just as well
researched and backed up. Just like the urban myths site I referred
to in aft a few weeks back; most of the posters in afu loathe him and
his posting style, but they don't deny his research or his
credibility.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Larry Swain
Yuk Tang wrote:
> AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:slrnd2nr3v.800....@aaron.clausen:
>
>>On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 03:12:10 GMT,
>>Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>[5] There are many other descriptions of the Darkness that comes
>>>from Mordor. How much of it is the fumes from Mount Doom, and how
>>>much of it is these shadows woven by Sauron?
>>
>>Obviously there is both present. I guess it's little wonder that
>>Mordor is the Land of Shadow.
>
>
> I've always felt that the physical shadows came from Mount Doom, but
> the extraordinarily oppressive atmosphere, beyond that caused by mere
> lack of light, was caused by Sauron.
>
> I read some of Martinez's essays recently,
he whom we do not name?
and in them he describes
> the fortresses held by Gondor inside Mordor during the early 3rd Age.
Like Cirith Ungol--which Tolkien tells us about in the appendices? Glad
ol' MM searched that one out for us.
> What was Mordor like back then, when Sauron was inactive?
Much the same.
Martinez
> surmises that much of the supplies must have come from Ithilien,
> resulting in an economic boom for that region, but were the garrisons
> able to supplement this with food grown inside Mordor?
Probably not. If there isn't a lot of rainfall, one needs irrigation.
NOt many irrigable rivers and lakes in the vicinity of Gondor's
fortresses on the borders of Mordor. And for there to be an economic
boom for Ithilien as supplier for these garrisons, the garrisons must be
posited to be HUGE with thousands of men in each. But that doesn't fit
Tolkien's descriptions.
After all, if
> Mount Doom was able to create a land of dust in Gorgoroth, its
> aftermath must also have been impressively fertile during those
> periods when it wasn't spewing.
Mount Doom aided and controlled by Sauron and millions of orcs with
shovels, and Sauron wearing a ring blasting the land with "magic" and
such. We are not merely observing the normal functions of nature here,
but nature twisted to serve Sauron's ends.
>
>
>>>[13] Dying embers of Frodo's heart and will? What is this about?
>>>Also, exactly when did Gollum realise that Sam and Frodo intend
>>>to destroy the Ring. Why not attack them earlier?
>>
>>I think I broached this one myself not so long ago. Gollum
>>clearly knows enough Ringlore to know that the Ring would be
>>destroyed if thrown into Sammath Naur. Yet wouldn't it have been
>>just as bad for Gollum if Sauron had reclaimed it?
>
> At least Precious would still be alive.
Perhaps, but both Gandalf and Gollum reflect that seeing the Ring on
Sauron's hand would be a form of excruciating torture. And does Gollum
"know" that it would be destroyed or does he rather suspect--after all
how many things in Gollum's experience survive being tossed into a
volcano? And doesn't Frodo spill the beans ot Gollum? I don't have my
books handy....
Gregg Cattanach
>
> IIRC all mentions of the land inside Mordor, with the exception of
> the fields around Nurnen, are desolate. If so, how was it caused,
> even in Sauron's absence? In RL volcanic soil is prime farmland,
> unless the volcano was still active. If Orodruin was big enough to
> adversely affect Gorgoroth, it should be big enough to positively
> affect it too. And it was over a thousand years between the fall of
> Sauron and the second fall of Minas Ithil, so nature should have had
> ample opportunity to recover. Was it a lack of rainfall? If so, was
> there such a marked difference between Ithilien (land of milk and
> honey) and Gorgoroth? There doesn't seem to be that much difference
> in distance, certainly not enough to create two such different
> environments.
One possibility that is similar to the Rocky Mountains in the US is the
normal weather patterns that flow from west to east drop most of their
rainfall on the western slopes of those mountains. By the time the weather
system has traversed the mountains, there is very little moisture left to
rain out on the eastern slopes. Observe the Great Plains that start at
Denver which are nearly a desert environment.
I don't know if the Mountains of Shadow are a big enough range to cause this
kind of weather effect, however.
Are there references that Orodruin was always active? It seems I recall
something about it becoming active again after Sauron returned to Mordor.
--
Gregg C.
AC
I don't know. How do magic rings work? How do angelic beings communicate
with thought alone? What kind of gravity would a flat Earth have? What
physical interactions does an Ainu use to create a new physical form?
>
> Tolkien has been impressively observant of geography elsewhere in his
> writings, especially concerning Eriador, so I think it's fair to
> raise questions. Who knows, perhaps they can be answered.
Look at Mordor. An accurate geological feature it ain't.
>
>
>>>> As to Mr. Martinez, the less said the better. This sounds
>>>> like a David Day-ism to me.
>>>
>>> I'm pretty sure the Gondorian fortresses inside Mordor are
>>> Tolkien text, either JRRT or CJRT. Which leads to the question
>>> of just how they were maintained.
>>
>> The distance between Mordor and Gondor is pretty darn negligible.
>> I doubt it would be that difficult at the height of Gondor's power
>> to transport supplies. The Anduin flows fairly close by.
>
> There are the mountains in the way. Forts near the northern passes
> would probably go via Dagorlad (via what we call the Morannon, but
> the name might not have been used back then), while ones on the
> western edges would use Minas Ithil. What about the ones deeper in?
> If Mordor really were such a forbidding place, it would cost supplies
> simply to get supplies to the interior. Cf. modern estimates of how
> viable it is to supply fuel via land, or Sun Tzu's maxim that
> supplying a war from the homeland ruins the nation.
Well, we have to contend with the fact that Tolkien seems to have wanted to
keep the region around Mount Doom desolate. Short of inventing a "fact"
that is nowhere referenced in Tolkien's writings (which I consider to be a
David Day-ism, and thus the accusation) I suppose we have to accept that the
Dunedain had a longish supply route.
>
> As for Martinez: I've been called names by him before, but I respect
> his Tolkien scholarship (even though he was wrong on that occasion).
> If nothing else, his articles are certainly interesting, and as far
> as I can check with Steuard and Stan's writings, just as well
> researched and backed up. Just like the urban myths site I referred
> to in aft a few weeks back; most of the posters in afu loathe him and
> his posting style, but they don't deny his research or his
> credibility.
Oh yeah, the guy that claims BoLT and Silm are two different mythologies is
just steeping in credibility.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Yuk Tang
news:%LEXd.1885$ZB6...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com:
>>
>> IIRC all mentions of the land inside Mordor, with the exception
>> of the fields around Nurnen, are desolate. If so, how was it
>> caused, even in Sauron's absence? In RL volcanic soil is prime
>> farmland, unless the volcano was still active. If Orodruin was
>> big enough to adversely affect Gorgoroth, it should be big enough
>> to positively affect it too. And it was over a thousand years
>> between the fall of Sauron and the second fall of Minas Ithil, so
>> nature should have had ample opportunity to recover. Was it a
>> lack of rainfall? If so, was there such a marked difference
>> between Ithilien (land of milk and honey) and Gorgoroth? There
>> doesn't seem to be that much difference in distance, certainly
>> not enough to create two such different environments.
>
> One possibility that is similar to the Rocky Mountains in the US
> is the normal weather patterns that flow from west to east drop
> most of their rainfall on the western slopes of those mountains.
> By the time the weather system has traversed the mountains, there
> is very little moisture left to rain out on the eastern slopes.
> Observe the Great Plains that start at Denver which are nearly a
> desert environment.
>
> I don't know if the Mountains of Shadow are a big enough range to
> cause this kind of weather effect, however.
That's one possibility, which can perhaps be proved or disproved by
descriptions within the text. Anyone? Also, how far inside Mordor
does one go before such conditions no longer prevail? Does the
existence of Orodruin significantly affect that part of the climate
in that part of Mordor? Would the rainfall have been different
during the times when it was quiescent, compared to when it was
active?
Gandalf mentions that the fields around the Sea of Nurnen were rich
and worked by slaves. Presumably by the time of the War of the Ring,
those fields were the only fertile lands remaining in Mordor. If so,
was this the case during the rest of the Third Age? Was the desert
of Gorgoroth a result of geography, or was it caused by Sauron?
AFAIK, the story of the Brown Lands is as close as we get to the
subject, unfortunately.
> Are there references that Orodruin was always active? It seems I
> recall something about it becoming active again after Sauron
> returned to Mordor.
It was another possibility, given the norms of volcanic behaviour in
RL. If Orodruin is big enough to cause devastation for the
surrounding areas, its aftermath should also follow RL conditions for
volcanic environments, which IIRC are nitrate-rich soils, perfect for
plants. Even if it's not big enough to affect the whole of
Gorgoroth, the immediate surroundings should be prime land for
cultivation, given a modicum of moisture.
One argument against is that the volcano was dangerous enough to
preclude any such period of recovery. Since nature does not make
risk/benefit calculations, complete desolation throughout the Third
Age could only have been possible if the conditions prevented the
existence of life throughout the Third Age.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Yuk Tang
news:slrnd2u8o0.cef....@aaron.clausen:
And Eriador? Anyone can see that Mordor was drawn as a box. Should
we then preclude all discussion with "Oh well, it's just a story".
If so, what are the CotW discussions for?
>>>>> As to Mr. Martinez, the less said the better. This sounds
>>>>> like a David Day-ism to me.
>>>>
>>>> I'm pretty sure the Gondorian fortresses inside Mordor are
>>>> Tolkien text, either JRRT or CJRT. Which leads to the question
>>>> of just how they were maintained.
>>>
>>> The distance between Mordor and Gondor is pretty darn
>>> negligible. I doubt it would be that difficult at the height of
>>> Gondor's power to transport supplies. The Anduin flows fairly
>>> close by.
>>
>> There are the mountains in the way. Forts near the northern
>> passes would probably go via Dagorlad (via what we call the
>> Morannon, but the name might not have been used back then), while
>> ones on the western edges would use Minas Ithil. What about the
>> ones deeper in? If Mordor really were such a forbidding place,
>> it would cost supplies simply to get supplies to the interior.
>> Cf. modern estimates of how viable it is to supply fuel via land,
>> or Sun Tzu's maxim that supplying a war from the homeland ruins
>> the nation.
>
> Well, we have to contend with the fact that Tolkien seems to have
> wanted to keep the region around Mount Doom desolate. Short of
> inventing a "fact" that is nowhere referenced in Tolkien's
> writings (which I consider to be a David Day-ism, and thus the
> accusation) I suppose we have to accept that the Dunedain had a
> longish supply route.
Which David Day-ish fact is this? That Gondor maintained forts
inside Mordor? That there are limited entry points from Gondor to
Mordor? If those are actual textual points, then why shouldn't we
apply RL rules to them? Eg. garrisons must either be maintained from
the outside, or live off the land, or a mixture of both. If living
off the land, that means that the land can be lived off. If
maintained from the outside, then they must follow RL rules of
supply, ie. the longer and more arduous the route, the more supplies
are wasted in getting it to the endpoint. Even if the forts only
existed for a comparatively short period of time (relative to
Gondor's history), they'd still have to be fed.
And Sun Tzu's point is that it is preferable to live off the land if
circumstances allow it. Outside supplies are wasteful, even if one
can make use of the local economy (due to inflation in the camp's
vicinity). One estimate of the siege of Dien Bien Phu said that 9
bowlfuls of rice were required to get 1 bowlful to the soldier on the
front line. If Mordor really were a desert as was the case in
Frodo's time, how much more resources would be required?
Martinez's scenario was that the necessity of getting those supplies
through, plus the long peace, and various other economic factors,
could well have resulted in a boom for Ithilien, relative to its
later history. I'd agree that's taking the text a fair distance, but
the scenario doesn't seem too unrealistic.
>> As for Martinez: I've been called names by him before, but I
>> respect his Tolkien scholarship (even though he was wrong on that
>> occasion). If nothing else, his articles are certainly
>> interesting, and as far as I can check with Steuard and Stan's
>> writings, just as well researched and backed up. Just like the
>> urban myths site I referred to in aft a few weeks back; most of
>> the posters in afu loathe him and his posting style, but they
>> don't deny his research or his credibility.
>
> Oh yeah, the guy that claims BoLT and Silm are two different
> mythologies is just steeping in credibility.
Have you read the essays I was talking about? I don't see much
difference between the speculations there, and those in aft and rabt.
One can draw different conclusions, and one can certainly make them
differently. But I certainly respect the route that he's taken, even
if I disagree (as I've done before) with his destination.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Shanahan
> spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
>> Book 6, Chapter 3: Mount Doom
>
>> [2] What caused this hardening of Sam's will? The lembas or
>> something else?
>
> "Thought must be the harder, heart be the keener,
> mind must be the greater, while our strength lessens."
Great quote! It's from /Beorthelm/, no? But bear in mind that this
quote, in context, is cynical, IIRC. The speaker is the young man,
raised on heroic tales, believing in their aphorisms; and it is just
those noble rules that have caused the loss of the battle in that play
(when the king let the enemy over the bridge which was their only real
advantage).
Ciaran S.
--
Open up an abyss of infinite analytical regress
Shanahan
> AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>>> [13] Dying embers of Frodo's heart and will? What is this about?
It's a metaphor. <g>
>>> Also, exactly when did Gollum realise that Sam and Frodo intend
>>> to destroy the Ring. Why not attack them earlier?
>>
>> I think I broached this one myself not so long ago. Gollum
>> clearly knows enough Ringlore to know that the Ring would be
>> destroyed if thrown into Sammath Naur. Yet wouldn't it have been
>> just as bad for Gollum if Sauron had reclaimed it?
Of course, it would, and Gollum knows this. It is one of the things
that keeps him from killing Frodo and taking the Ring all along: he
knows very well that it's better for him if Frodo holds the Ring, than
if Sauron captured it (Slinkerthink, not Stinkerthink). I'm also not
really sure that Gollum consciously knows ringlore; I believe it's more
something he senses intuitively.
> At least Precious would still be alive. This is one of the points
> where I think that Jackson's changes actually made thematic sense,
> that Gollum values the Ring more than himself. I think that either
> you, or Flame, made the same point some time ago, when you said that
> the worst hurt that Frodo suffered was the destruction of the Ring.
> Arwen clearly perceived this, and gave him the jewel as a
> replacement.
True. I would make two small changes in emphasis: the worst hurt that
Frodo suffered was the emptiness left inside him when the Ring was
destroyed (I think of it as the Ring having 'eaten' part of Frodo's
soul). And I think the jewel was intended as a comfort, rather than a
replacement, and also as a reminder that he had another option than
merely suffering on Middle Earth.
Ciaran S.
--
Code or be coded
AC
No, I haven't read Mr. Martinez's essay, so I probably shouldn't say any
more. I simply don't trust his judgement or his motives, and his behavior
here has indicated that there is no reason to view either favorably.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Natman
It is not at all uncommon for the environments on different sides of a
mountain range to be very different. Compare the rainforest on the
eastern side of Maui to the desert on the west. Or compare western
Oregon with eastern Oregon. Night and day difference.
Pete Gray
says...
No, it's from the 'Battle of Maldon', I got the translation here:
<http://faculty.uca.edu/~jona/texts/maldon.htm>
A longer section:
'Byrhtwold spoke, raised his shield--
he was an old retainer--shook his ash-spear;
full boldly he taught warriors:
"Thought must be the harder, heart be the keener,
mind must be the greater, while our strength lessens.
Here lies our prince all hewn,
good one on grit. He may always mourn
who from this war-play thinks now to turn.
My life is old: I will not away;
but I myself beside my lord,
by so loved a man, think to lie."
So Aethelgar's son emboldened them all...'
the softrat
<pogu...@ITbluefrog.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Thought must be the harder, heart be the keener,
>> mind must be the greater, while our strength lessens."
>
>Great quote! It's from /Beorthelm/, no? But bear in mind that this
>quote, in context, is cynical, IIRC. The speaker is the young man,
>raised on heroic tales, believing in their aphorisms; and it is just
>those noble rules that have caused the loss of the battle in that play
>(when the king let the enemy over the bridge which was their only real
>advantage).
>
_The Battle of Maldon_, it is spoken by an old retainer during the
battle.
And it wasn't a 'king' that let the enemy across 'the bridge'. It was
a 'eorl' (read 'earl') who allowed the enemy to cross a ford/causeway.
Criticism here fails if one is not familiar with _The Battle of
Maldon_ and it helps to have read it in the original tongue. Otherwise
one is tilting at strawmen.
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Please don't congregate in groups.
Christopher Kreuzer
> pogu...@ITbluefrog.com says...
> > ne...@redbadge.co.uk <ne...@redbadge.co.uk> creatively typed:
> > > spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> >
> > >> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
> > >> Book 6, Chapter 3: Mount Doom
> > >
> > >> [2] What caused this hardening of Sam's will? The lembas or
> > >> something else?
"But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was turned to a new
strength. Sam's plain hobbit-face grew stern, almost grim, as the will
hardened in him, and he felt through all his limbs a thrill, as if he
was turning into some creature of stone and steel that neither despair
nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue."
> > > "Thought must be the harder, heart be the keener,
> > > mind must be the greater, while our strength lessens."
> >
> > Great quote! It's from /Beorthelm/, no?
The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son.
That's what I thought too, but the quote is not quite right.
The original bit from LotR made me think of that quote as well.
As Pete says below, he went back to the original (The Battle of Maldon),
though I'm not clear from what Pete said whether he is aware of
Tolkien's poetic reworking of 'The Battle of Maldon' fragment.
> > But bear in mind that this
> > quote, in context, is cynical, IIRC. The speaker is the young man,
> > raised on heroic tales, believing in their aphorisms; and it is just
> > those noble rules that have caused the loss of the battle in that
play
> > (when the king let the enemy over the bridge which was their only
real
> > advantage).
That is the interpretation that Tolkien gives it in his Modern English
poem ('The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son'), which is based
on 'The Battle of Maldon' (an Old English fragment).
The quote from Tolkien's Modern English poem is:
"Heart shall be bolder, harder be purpose,
More proud the spirit as our power lessens!
Mind shall not falter nor mood waver,
Though doom shall come and dark conquer."
Tolkien follows the poem with notes on the meaning of his work, and
focuses on lines 89 and 90 of the original fragment:
"ða se eorl ongan for his ofermode alyfan landes to fela laþere ðeode"
Tolkien's trans: "then the earl in his overmastering pride actually
yielded ground to the enemy, as he should not have done."
Tolkien does indicate that he thinks those lines from the 'Battle of
Maldon' fragment show that the author was condemning the decision of the
earl to yield ground, but he also recognises that the lines quoted above
and below ('Heart shall be bolder...') have been seen as: "the finest
expression of the northern heroic spirit, Norse or English, the clearest
statement of the doctrine of uttermost endurance in the service of
indomitable will."
Which might apply pretty well to Sam and Frodo.
> No, it's from the 'Battle of Maldon', I got the translation here:
>
> <http://faculty.uca.edu/~jona/texts/maldon.htm>
>
> A longer section:
>
> 'Byrhtwold spoke, raised his shield--
> he was an old retainer--shook his ash-spear;
> full boldly he taught warriors:
> "Thought must be the harder, heart be the keener,
> mind must be the greater, while our strength lessens.
> Here lies our prince all hewn,
> good one on grit. He may always mourn
> who from this war-play thinks now to turn.
> My life is old: I will not away;
> but I myself beside my lord,
> by so loved a man, think to lie."
> So Aethelgar's son emboldened them all...'
Must read the whole thing one day!
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Michele Fry
Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son.
>That's what I thought too, but the quote is not quite right.
>The original bit from LotR made me think of that quote as well.
>
>As Pete says below, he went back to the original (The Battle of Maldon),
>though I'm not clear from what Pete said whether he is aware of
>Tolkien's poetic reworking of 'The Battle of Maldon' fragment.
>
>That is the interpretation that Tolkien gives it in his Modern English
>poem ('The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son'), which is based
>on 'The Battle of Maldon' (an Old English fragment).
>
>The quote from Tolkien's Modern English poem is:
>
>"Heart shall be bolder, harder be purpose,
>More proud the spirit as our power lessens!
>Mind shall not falter nor mood waver,
>Though doom shall come and dark conquer."
John Garth (in _Tolkien and the Great War_) comments that these lines
are a "summation of the old Northern heroic code" and this summation
"contains the awareness that death may come, but it focuses doggedly on
achieving the most with what strength remains: it had more to commend it
in terms of personal and strategic morale, than the self-sacrificial and
quasi-mystical tone of Rupert Brooke's already-famous _The Soldier_,
which implied that a soldier's worth to his nation was greater in death
than in life: "If I should die think only this of me: / That there's
some corner of a foreign field / That is forever England." (pp. 71-2) I
confess that when I read Garth's comments I got choked up, because I
felt that what he'd said was so very true. I've never liked Brooke very
much (although Siegfried Sassoon thought him wondrous and exotic on the
one occasion on which they met before the FWW) and these lines of his
have always irritated me... I much prefer Tolkien's translation of the
OE - even though _Maldon_ isn't even a response to the FWW, it seems
much more appropriate somehow...
>Tolkien follows the poem with notes on the meaning of his work, and
>focuses on lines 89 and 90 of the original fragment:
>
>"ša se eorl ongan for his ofermode alyfan landes to fela lažere šeode"
>
>Tolkien's trans: "then the earl in his overmastering pride actually
>yielded ground to the enemy, as he should not have done."
>
>Tolkien does indicate that he thinks those lines from the 'Battle of
>Maldon' fragment show that the author was condemning the decision of the
>earl to yield ground, but he also recognises that the lines quoted above
>and below ('Heart shall be bolder...') have been seen as: "the finest
>expression of the northern heroic spirit, Norse or English, the clearest
>statement of the doctrine of uttermost endurance in the service of
>indomitable will."
>
>Which might apply pretty well to Sam and Frodo.
>
>Must read the whole thing one day!
Do !! I read it myself during the summer, out of curiosity because I'd
picked up _Tree and Leaf_ (which of course, contains _The Homecoming_) -
I read it before reading Tolkien's poem since the action of _The
Homecoming_ follows on from _The Battle of Maldon_ - I can't recall
which edition I read, but if you're interested I can check !
Michele
==
There is no book so bad that it is not profitable on some part.
- Pliny the Younger
==
Now reading: Men at Arms - Terry Pratchett
==
Commit random acts of literacy! Read & Release at Bookcrossing:
http://www.bookcrossing.com/friend/Sass-80
John Jones
news:d0ndv...@enews3.newsguy.com...
> ne...@redbadge.co.uk <ne...@redbadge.co.uk> creatively typed:
> >
> > "Thought must be the harder, heart be the keener,
> > mind must be the greater, while our strength lessens."
>
> Great quote! It's from /Beorthelm/, no? But bear in mind that this
> quote, in context, is cynical, IIRC. The speaker is the young man,
> raised on heroic tales, believing in their aphorisms; and it is just
> those noble rules that have caused the loss of the battle in that play
> (when the king let the enemy over the bridge which was their only real
> advantage).
>
No; it's Aldorman Brytnoth's housecarls encouraging each other when they are
about to die, because their honour will not allow them to surrender or run
away after their leader had been killed. The point of the poem (The Battle
of Maldon) was that this type of heroism was in very short supply during the
reign of Ethelred the Unready.
Larry Swain
AC wrote:
There's a world of difference. Here we all discuss, argue, lambast,
attack, parry, and joke, but hopefully no one takes it too seriously as
"scholarship". There are those here who have earned respect for their
well-researched web pages and arguments, and from time to time known and
respected Tolkien scholars weigh in with comments and reviews and
notices. But its a newsgroup.
On the other hand, MM takes newsgroup type discussions and then
publishes them as if they are Tolkien scholarship. This doesn't make him
wrong (although we agree that there are things he is wrong on), or that
even I disagree with him on everything (I don't, surprisingly enough,
sometimes I think he's got stuff spot on), but it does mean that there
is a rather large difference between what MM intends his essays to be
and what we intend our newsgroup essays and assays and forays to be.
And the problem with that, as you say, is that qualitatively and
speculatively there is no difference between the two.
Pete Gray
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>
> The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son.
> That's what I thought too, but the quote is not quite right.
> The original bit from LotR made me think of that quote as well.
>
> As Pete says below, he went back to the original (The Battle of Maldon),
> though I'm not clear from what Pete said whether he is aware of
> Tolkien's poetic reworking of 'The Battle of Maldon' fragment.
>
Yes, I knew. It's made me wonder what on earth has happened to my copy
of Tree & Leaf, as I can't find it. It seemed an appropriate quote,
particularly since it is spoken by a retainer.
[snip]
>
> Must read the whole thing one day!
>
As softrat says it may be best to read it in the original, but those
like me, who can't, are limited to others' translations.
Stan Brown
>Well, apart from the WK (and indeed including him), does it say anywhere
>that the Nazgul can't be just killed?
Tolkien carfully says in a Letter that the WK was "reduced to
impotence", not "killed". (Letter 246, author's footnote)
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
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Stan Brown
>[8] Is Frodo only wearing the Elven cloak at this point? Sam is still
>wearing his clothes, but Frodo seems to have only the cloak, elven rope
>belt and Ring. Very ascetic.
I believe so, yes. He was so very weary that he had to jettison all
possible weight.
Stan Brown
>exactly when did Gollum realise that Sam and Frodo intend to destroy the
>Ring. Why not attack them earlier?
I think he knew for certain when they crossed into Mordor. Frodo
had told Faramir, and he and Sam surely must have discussed it at
some time when they thought they were alone but Gollum was sneaking
arund spying on them. So Gollum may well have known back in
Ithilien, but he didn't worry about it because he ASSumed that
Shelob would (a) get them and (b) toss the Ring aside.(*)
Once they were in Mordor, I think the last shreds of his loyalty to
Frodo were no match for the increased power of the pull of the
Ring. He had to track the Hobbits, but they gave him no opportunity
to attack until Mount Doom.
(*)Can you imagine Shelob with the Ring? Men, Elves, Dwarves, and
Orcs from all over the world, marching in lines to wait their turn
to be eaten by her?
Stan Brown
>Ring?
I don't believe the destruction of the One Ring would have done it.
When the One was destroyed, the other Fifteen (3 for Elves, 3
remaining Dwarf Rings, and 9 for Men) would have turned into
ordinary jewelry; but what was done with them would not disappear
(or Lorien and Rivendell would have crumbled to dust).
Thus I think the Eight Nazgul could have dragged on as wraiths
indefinitely. But in their madness they rode into the fire, which
destroyed them.
What I wonder about is, what happened to the Witch-king? I don't
see any way for his spirit to have been released, since he was only
"reduced to impotence" not killed on the Pelennor Fields.
Stan Brown
>Could you forgive someone who has just bitten off your finger?
Gollum is absolutely crucial -- without him the Ring would not have
been destroyed but would hve been recovered by Sauron, and we
should still probably be under his yoke.
I don't think "forgiveness" enters into it, since Golum was dead
and gone a moment later. Frodo would regret the loss of the finger
certainly, but I can't imagine him wasing resentment on the ex-
Gollum.
AC
Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>[20] Were the Nazgul destroyed by the eruption or destruction of the
>>Ring?
>
> I don't believe the destruction of the One Ring would have done it.
>
> When the One was destroyed, the other Fifteen (3 for Elves, 3
> remaining Dwarf Rings, and 9 for Men) would have turned into
> ordinary jewelry; but what was done with them would not disappear
> (or Lorien and Rivendell would have crumbled to dust).
I have to differ on this one, Stan. We do see at least one work that is
undone; Bilbo.
"'It is true that I wish to go back to the Shire,' said Frodo, 'But first I
must go to Rivendell. For if there could be anything wanting in a time so
blessed, I missed Bilbo; and I was grieved when among all the household of
Elrond I saw that he was not come.'
'Do you wonder at that Ring-bearer?' said Arwen. 'For you know the power of
that thing which is now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is
now passing away. But your kinsman possessed this thing longer than you.
He is ancient in years now, according to his kind; and he awaits you, for he
will not again make any long journey save one.'"
- RotK - Many Partings
>
> Thus I think the Eight Nazgul could have dragged on as wraiths
> indefinitely. But in their madness they rode into the fire, which
> destroyed them.
>
> What I wonder about is, what happened to the Witch-king? I don't
> see any way for his spirit to have been released, since he was only
> "reduced to impotence" not killed on the Pelennor Fields.
>
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Yuk Tang
news:39cle3F6...@individual.net:
>>[20] Were the Nazgul destroyed by the eruption or destruction of
>>the Ring?
>
> I don't believe the destruction of the One Ring would have done
> it.
>
> When the One was destroyed, the other Fifteen (3 for Elves, 3
> remaining Dwarf Rings, and 9 for Men) would have turned into
> ordinary jewelry; but what was done with them would not disappear
> (or Lorien and Rivendell would have crumbled to dust).
>
> Thus I think the Eight Nazgul could have dragged on as wraiths
> indefinitely. But in their madness they rode into the fire, which
> destroyed them.
What power would remain that would prevent them from following the
desire of Men to leave for the next world? As Aaron cites in his
post, Bilbo is an example of how one detained by a Great Ring would
suddenly feel the world weariness when the Ring is destroyed. How
much more so for the Nine, who possibly date back even to the Second
Age?
As for Lorien and Rivendell: I was going to say that they merely
reverted back to the natural process of decline and renewal, instead
of being postponed indefinitely, but then humanity does the same.
Perhaps Eru's gift to Men is a stronger force than this natural
process, that though seemingly the same (birth, life, and death),
the end is different for the Second Children from the rest of Arda?
--
Cheers, ymt.
aelfwina
"Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:39ckrkF6...@individual.net...
> "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>[8] Is Frodo only wearing the Elven cloak at this point? Sam is still
>>wearing his clothes, but Frodo seems to have only the cloak, elven rope
>>belt and Ring. Very ascetic.
>
> I believe so, yes. He was so very weary that he had to jettison all
> possible weight.
There must have been *some* remnants or tatters left. To anticipate next
week's chapter: "Even the orc-rags that you bore in the Black Land, Frodo,
shall be preserved..."
Barbara
Larry Swain
Stan Brown wrote:
> "Pete Gray" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>
>>Well, apart from the WK (and indeed including him), does it say anywhere
>>that the Nazgul can't be just killed?
>
>
> Tolkien carfully says in a Letter that the WK was "reduced to
> impotence", not "killed". (Letter 246, author's footnote)
>
Thanks Stan! I knew I had read this somewhere but couldn't find where!
Dirk Thierbach
> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:44:34 +0100, Georg Schönegger
> <g.scho...@aon.at> wrote:
[Mount Doom]
>> sounds good, but then what does 'crack of doom" mean?
>> i always had the impression that tolkien christened them because of
>> their part in the ring-story (including the destruction), but this is,
>> of course, only an external reason. the in-story-reason is not obvious
>> to me at all.
It's a sort of "donnish" joke. The /Guide to the Names/ explains:
Crack of Doom. In modern use derived from Macbeth IV i 117, in which
the /cracke of Doome/ means 'the announcement of the Last Day', by a
crack or peal of thunder: so it is commonly supposed, but it may mean
'the sound of the last trump', since crack could be applied to the
sudden sound of horns or trumpets (as it is in Sir Gawain and the
Green Knight lines 116, 1166). In this story crack is here used in the
sense 'fissure', and refers to the volcanic fissure in the crater of
Orodruin in Mordor. See further under Doom and Mount Doom.
As for Mount Doom itself:
Mount Doom. This was (in Gondor) the Common Speech name of the volcano
Orodruin ('Mountain of red flame'), but was a translation of its other
Elvish name Amon Amarth ('Hill of Doom'), given to Sauron's
forge-mountain because it was linked in ancient and little-understood
prophecies with the 'doom', the final end of the Third Age, that it
was foretold would befall when Isildur's Bane was found again; see the
verses in I 259. Translate by sense: 'Mountain (of) doom' (in the
sense 'impending fate'). See Crack of Doom.
> Similar question: Why do they call it Dusseldorf?
Not a good counterexample. It probably had a well-known meaning some
hundred years ago. As nearly all place-names have (and Tolkien
simulates this process in LotR very well).
> What's a 'dussel' anyway?
A "Dussel" (no u-umlaut) is someone stupid. "Dusel haben" (also no
u-umlaut) means "to have undeserved luck". My dictionary says the
original meaning of "Dusel" was "vertigo, drunkenness", but that's no
longer in use. The two first expressions are. And of course it's also
possible that Duesseldorf (with u-umlaut in the modern form, BTW) is
derived from a different word.
> And it sure aint no 'dorf' neither!
But it was. OTOH, mountains don't grow. Villages do grow into cities.
- Dirk
Pete Gray
says...
> "Pete Gray" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> >Well, apart from the WK (and indeed including him), does it say anywhere
> >that the Nazgul can't be just killed?
>
> Tolkien carfully says in a Letter that the WK was "reduced to
> impotence", not "killed". (Letter 246, author's footnote)
>
I've always felt that Tolkien should have resisted the temptation to
fill in the gaps and tidy up the story. Still I should think being dead
would leave him pretty impotent (no stiff jokes please). Or does this
mean that it was Gollum that killed the WK?
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> news:39ckrkF6...@individual.net...
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>> [8] Is Frodo only wearing the Elven cloak at this point? Sam is
>>> still wearing his clothes, but Frodo seems to have only the cloak,
>>> elven rope belt and Ring. Very ascetic.
>>
>> I believe so, yes. He was so very weary that he had to jettison all
>> possible weight.
>
> There must have been *some* remnants or tatters left. To anticipate
> next week's chapter: "Even the orc-rags that you bore in the Black
> Land, Frodo, shall be preserved..."
Good point. Re-reading the bit in the 'Mount Doom' chapter more closely,
I see that Frodo flung away his orc-shield, helmet, heavy belt, sheathed
sword, and the "shreds of the black cloak". He kept the grey cloak (from
Lorien). Looking back to the point when Sam rescues him, we can see that
Frodo wears the following:
"Frodo looked in disgust at the contents, but there was nothing for it:
he had to put the things on, or go naked. There were long hairy breeches
of some unclean beast-fell, and a tunic of dirty leather. He drew them
on. Over the tunic went a coat of stout ring-mail, short for a
full-sized orc, too long for Frodo and heavy. About it he clasped a
belt, at which there hung a short sheath holding a broad-bladed
stabbing-sword. Sam had brought several orc-helmets. One of them fitted
Frodo well enough..." (The Tower of Cirith Ungol)
We know that Frodo picks up a shield later, and we also know that he
discards the mail-shirt (the one that Gollum later picks up). But we
never (AFAIK) hear of him discarding the hairy breeches and dirty tunic,
so presumably he is still wearing these along with the grey cloak, in
this chapter after he and Sam get rid of nearly everything else.
More interesting, of course, is the comment Frodo made:
"There, I'll be an orc no more, and I'll bear no weapon fair or foul.
Let them take me, if they will!"
Sam is a bit more pragmatic, keeping Sting just in case!
So what does that comment about not bearing any weapon say about Frodo?
Yuk Tang
news:2005031111464...@dthierbach.news.arcor.de:
>
>> Similar question: Why do they call it Dusseldorf?
>
> Not a good counterexample. It probably had a well-known meaning
> some hundred years ago. As nearly all place-names have (and
> Tolkien simulates this process in LotR very well).
Like Cologne used to be Colonia Agrippina.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Laurie Forbes
"Jon Hall" <jgc....@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:f36a99484...@tiscali.co.uk...
| In message <Xns9613CB3CBC0C2...@130.133.1.4>
| Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| > >>>That begs the question as to what happened to the Witch King.
We might ask that question.
| > Perhaps the physical form was killed by Eowyn and Merry, but the
| > spirit stayed in the Halls, exchanging plesantries with Feanor, until
| > the One was destroyed.
|
| The WK was human, so not the Halls....
You seem to know a lot about the Halls, Jon. What would account for this?
Stan Brown
>On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:34:11 -0500,
>Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>>[20] Were the Nazgul destroyed by the eruption or destruction of the
>>>Ring?
>>
>> I don't believe the destruction of the One Ring would have done it.
>>
>> When the One was destroyed, the other Fifteen (3 for Elves, 3
>> remaining Dwarf Rings, and 9 for Men) would have turned into
>> ordinary jewelry; but what was done with them would not disappear
>> (or Lorien and Rivendell would have crumbled to dust).
>
>I have to differ on this one, Stan. We do see at least one work that is
>undone; Bilbo.
I had Bilbo in mind. But (a) he wasn't a wraith and (b) it was the
One Ring that had preserved him.
The Nazgul were wraiths, not living men who had gone many years
without aging. And it was their own Nine Rings that had done it to
them, not the One.
Does anybody know anywhere where Tolkien addressed this issue? I
don't, so I'm just speculating.
Stan Brown
>What power would remain that would prevent them from following the
>desire of Men to leave for the next world?
I question whether the Nazgul had any such desire. Remember that
Morgoth and auron both worked to make Men terrified of death, nd
they very largely succeeded. Aragorn was notable exception, lying
down to die without fear when he felt it was his time.
But Men can't simply make their spirits leave their bodies by an
act of will, as Elves can. Men's spirits stay untill the bodies
wear out or are destroyed or greatly amaged. The Nazgul _had_ no
bodies to be destroyed, and they obviously could not die of old
age.
In reality they solves the problem nicely. :-) By riding into the
fires of Mount Doom, they freed their spirit to go to Mandos and
out of the world.
Georg Schönegger
>
> - Dirk
thank you, this is just what i was looking for. i didn't know about this
'guide to the names', seems very helpful and thorough.
it still seems to me slightly absurd that sauron (i suppose he knew
about the name 'mount doom' if not about 'ancient and little-understood
prophecies') didn't keep a better watch on the crack. then again, the
one-eyed may be king among the blind, but it's still only one eye.
georg
R. Dan Henry
<g.scho...@aon.at> wrote:
>Christopher Kreuzer schrieb:
>>
>> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
>> Book 6, Chapter 3: Mount Doom
>>
>> To read previous Chapter of the Week discussions, or to sign up to
>> introduce a future chapter (some of the Appendices are still available),
>> go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org
>>
>> As Frodo says to Sam: "This is the end at last. On Mount Doom doom shall
>> fall."
>
>Maybe off-topic here, but i asked this question once before in this ng
>and got no answer: WHY exactly was mount doom called mount doom? (same
>for the crack!)
The name "Mount Doom" was largely popularized by the small but
thriving "Mordor tourism" industry that arose when Gondor dominated
Mordor. It sounds so dramatic and all. In origin, it refers to the
unlucky Numenorean explorer who "discovered" it, only to be thrown in
by the orcs who were angered by his claim; after all, they'd known
about it for a long time.
As for "the Cracks of Doom", this was a deliberate mistranslation of a
message Sauron sent to the job foreman commanding that the
construction crew orcs wear their toolbelts higher.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Yuk Tang
> "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>What power would remain that would prevent them from following the
>>desire of Men to leave for the next world?
>
> I question whether the Nazgul had any such desire. Remember that
> Morgoth and auron both worked to make Men terrified of death, nd
> they very largely succeeded. Aragorn was notable exception, lying
> down to die without fear when he felt it was his time.
>
> But Men can't simply make their spirits leave their bodies by an
> act of will, as Elves can. Men's spirits stay untill the bodies
> wear out or are destroyed or greatly amaged. The Nazgul _had_ no
> bodies to be destroyed, and they obviously could not die of old
> age.
I thought dying of old age was simply the worldly manifestation of
Man's desire to leave this world.
Your explanation does make sense, but IMO thematically it makes more
sense if the Rings were all that kept the Nazgul in this world. That
they feared death, but had grown to hate existence (cf. Gandalf's
description of Gollum to Frodo). Normally this would be of no
matter, since they'd expire when they could no longer hold on. But
since the Rings held their spirit in this world, they remained after
their bodies crumbled. Thus they loved the Rings for keeping them in
this world, and hated them for stopping them from leaving, but were
enslaved to them nonetheless. A lesser version of the One, if you
will.
The Numenoreans couldn't hang on past their time, despite fearing
death, but is this because physical death naturally causes spiritual
death, or is it because there was nothing to hold them in this world
once it got too much for them? It's arguable either way.
> In reality they solves the problem nicely. :-) By riding into the
> fires of Mount Doom, they freed their spirit to go to Mandos and
> out of the world.
That's the practical answer: it doesn't really matter, since the
Nazgul went 'poof' at the end of the WotR. Would the Gondorrian
chroniclers haved cared overmuch about their fate? I doubt that the
ones in the Shire and Erebor (our other principle sources) would.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Yuk Tang
news:5da5319h91q73nhki...@4ax.com:
Actually, Mount Doom was called thus because it was the hub of the
Orcish videogame industry. The Cracks of Doom was where the
playtesting took place.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Dirk Thierbach
Exactly. But better don't mention Koeln and Duesseldorf together when
talking to any local people in this area; they traditionally dislike
each other, in some cases not very seriously, in some cases somewhat
violently so :-)
- Dirk
Stan Brown
>As for "the Cracks of Doom", this was a deliberate mistranslation of a
>message Sauron sent to the job foreman commanding that the
>construction crew orcs wear their toolbelts higher.
LOL!
This reminds me of a movie ad I heard many years ago on the radio.
I have no idea what movie was being advertised, but the image of
soldiers "marching out of the backside of Hell" has never left me.
Mark Edelstein
>
> So what does that comment about not bearing any weapon say about
Frodo?
>
The last vestiges (well more then vestiges) of resistance to the
ring-weaponry and the like could inevitably cause temptation to those
who are drawn to the ring. Abstain from mastery, and then you will be
less likely to want to be a master?
Just a thought, I know nothing definitive about that.
AC
> "AC" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:34:11 -0500,
>>Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>> "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>>>[20] Were the Nazgul destroyed by the eruption or destruction of the
>>>>Ring?
>>>
>>> I don't believe the destruction of the One Ring would have done it.
>>>
>>> When the One was destroyed, the other Fifteen (3 for Elves, 3
>>> remaining Dwarf Rings, and 9 for Men) would have turned into
>>> ordinary jewelry; but what was done with them would not disappear
>>> (or Lorien and Rivendell would have crumbled to dust).
>>
>>I have to differ on this one, Stan. We do see at least one work that is
>>undone; Bilbo.
>
> I had Bilbo in mind. But (a) he wasn't a wraith and (b) it was the
> One Ring that had preserved him.
>
> The Nazgul were wraiths, not living men who had gone many years
> without aging. And it was their own Nine Rings that had done it to
> them, not the One.
Still, the power of the Three, the Seven and the Nine were all wrapped up
with the One. When it was destroyed, so was their power.
>
> Does anybody know anywhere where Tolkien addressed this issue? I
> don't, so I'm just speculating.
Well, my reading of Elrond's, Galadriel's and Arwen's statements on the
matter leads me to the conclusion that those things wrought with the Rings
of Power came to an end with its destruction. The Nazgul, whatever they
were particularly, were wrought with the One via the Nine, and thus it's
destruction ended whatever power had forced their Fëar to remain in Arda.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Troels Forchhammer
<pogu...@ITbluefrog.com> enriched us with:
> Yuk Tang <jim.l...@yahoo.com> creatively typed:
>> AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>>> [13] Dying embers of Frodo's heart and will? What is this
>>>> about?
>
> It's a metaphor. <g>
Continuing the metaphor objectified in Narya, "with it you may rekindle
hearts in a world that grows chill."
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
It is useless to meet revenge with revenge: it will heal nothing.
- Frodo Baggins, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Alexey Romanov
<g.scho...@aon.at> wrote:
>Dirk Thierbach schrieb:
>>
>> the softrat <sof...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> > On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:44:34 +0100, Georg Sch?negger
But he likely thought the name to mean doom of Gondor.
Christopher Kreuzer
> Georg Sch?negger <g.scho...@aon.at> wrote:
[meaning of 'Mount Doom']
<snip>
> >thank you, this is just what i was looking for. i didn't know about
this
> >'guide to the names', seems very helpful and thorough.
> >it still seems to me slightly absurd that sauron (i suppose he knew
> >about the name 'mount doom' if not about 'ancient and
little-understood
> >prophecies') didn't keep a better watch on the crack. then again, the
> >one-eyed may be king among the blind, but it's still only one eye.
>
> But he likely thought the name to mean doom of Gondor.
Just like Boromir...
Hang on. I've got something else to post about Mount Doom and the Crack
of Doom. I may put it in a new thread, or find a suitable place in this
thread.
Shanahan
> "Pete Gray" <ne...@redbadge.co.uk> wrote:
>> pogu...@ITbluefrog.com says...
>>> ne...@redbadge.co.uk <ne...@redbadge.co.uk> creatively typed:
>>>> spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>>>
>>>>> [2] What caused this hardening of Sam's will? The lembas or
>>>>> something else?
>
> "But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was turned to a
> new strength. Sam's plain hobbit-face grew stern, almost grim, as
> the will hardened in him, and he felt through all his limbs a
> thrill, as if he was turning into some creature of stone and steel
> that neither despair nor weariness nor endless barren miles could
> subdue."
>
>>>> "Thought must be the harder, heart be the keener,
>>>> mind must be the greater, while our strength lessens."
>>>
>>> Great quote! It's from /Beorthelm/, no?
>
> The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son.
> That's what I thought too, but the quote is not quite right.
> The original bit from LotR made me think of that quote as well.
>
> As Pete says below, he went back to the original (The Battle of
> Maldon), though I'm not clear from what Pete said whether he is
> aware of Tolkien's poetic reworking of 'The Battle of Maldon'
> fragment.
>
>>> But bear in mind that this
>>> quote, in context, is cynical, IIRC. The speaker is the young man,
>>> raised on heroic tales, believing in their aphorisms; and it is
>>> just those noble rules that have caused the loss of the battle in
>>> that play (when the king let the enemy over the bridge which was
>>> their only real advantage).
>
> That is the interpretation that Tolkien gives it in his Modern
> English poem ('The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son'),
> which is based on 'The Battle of Maldon' (an Old English fragment).
> Tolkien does indicate that he thinks those lines from the 'Battle of
> Maldon' fragment show that the author was condemning the decision of
> the earl to yield ground,
Which led to the defeat of the Battle of Maldon. Yes. Heroic, but a
losing move.
Thanks, Christopher. I forgot how careful one must be to explicate
every statement around here. Ellipses don't function well on a
newsgroup of nigglers! (No insult intended. I *like* nigglers!)
Ciaran S.
--
Beware: every decoding is another encoding
Yuk Tang
news:d14ab...@enews3.newsguy.com:
>> English poem ('The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son'),
>> which is based on 'The Battle of Maldon' (an Old English
>> fragment). Tolkien does indicate that he thinks those lines from
>> the 'Battle of Maldon' fragment show that the author was
>> condemning the decision of the earl to yield ground,
>
> Which led to the defeat of the Battle of Maldon. Yes. Heroic,
> but a losing move.
Sun Tzu and the other Chinese theorists would have gone purple at the
move. There was one example of where a hugely outnumbered army did
actually give ground at a river crossing so that battle could be
offered, but not before sending spies and agents to the enemy's rear
stirring up stories that their front was being beaten. So the levies
at the back drifted away, followed by the ones in the middle as they
saw that something was causing their rear to leave the field. Upon
which the chivalrous general then stormed into the forces that had
made the crossing, and completed the rout.
--
Cheers, ymt.
R. Dan Henry
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>"Pete Gray" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>Well, apart from the WK (and indeed including him), does it say anywhere
>>that the Nazgul can't be just killed?
>
>Tolkien carfully says in a Letter that the WK was "reduced to
>impotence", not "killed". (Letter 246, author's footnote)
I'd thought Eowyn thrust too high for that and Merry too low! :-)
Well, the only difference I can see is that his spirit must not have
left the world; this would seem to be a ring-effect, which would have
been cancelled at the destruction of the Ruling Ring and the impotence
of the lesser rings. Unless Eru was so totally angry that he withheld
the Gift of Men, but that seems... unlikely.
It also isn't certain that Tolkien isn't just hedging here. It isn't
the point of the note to say that the WK isn't dead, but to explain
why only eight Nazgul are available at this point.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>"Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>[20] Were the Nazgul destroyed by the eruption or destruction of the
>>Ring?
>
>I don't believe the destruction of the One Ring would have done it.
>
>When the One was destroyed, the other Fifteen (3 for Elves, 3
>remaining Dwarf Rings, and 9 for Men) would have turned into
>ordinary jewelry; but what was done with them would not disappear
>(or Lorien and Rivendell would have crumbled to dust).
They would not have crumbled to dust, but their "specialness" from the
Rings would have gone... which it did. But perhaps not immediately; we
don't really get to check that. Bilbo's age catches up with him even
faster now, but he doesn't drop dead of old age... Gollum might have;
he seems to think he will perish when the Precious does. Even Frodo
hints at that: "Your time is at an end" he tells Gollum as he heads
for the Crack of Doom, although that can be interpreted in other ways.
>Thus I think the Eight Nazgul could have dragged on as wraiths
>indefinitely. But in their madness they rode into the fire, which
>destroyed them.
Not indefinitely, I think. Their mortality would have caught up with
them in time, I expect. And sooner rather than later -- even with
their rings they were hardly there -- without them I don't think
they'd last long.
>What I wonder about is, what happened to the Witch-king? I don't
>see any way for his spirit to have been released, since he was only
>"reduced to impotence" not killed on the Pelennor Fields.
The distinction being that he must have been held in Arda, against his
proper fate as a Man. I can't think what would do that save his ring,
which would have stopped at this point. Now, maybe he can just hang
around refuses to go to Mandos and get shipped out to points beyond,
but I just don't know. We don't actually know that the other Nazgul
were "killed" rather than "reduced to impotence", unless there's a
note somewhere I don't know about, in which case I would love to know
about it.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
>Oh yeah, the guy that claims BoLT and Silm are two different mythologies is
>just steeping in credibility.
That's not an indefensible position -- in fact, Martinez rarely makes
the fault of taking an indefensible position. Rather, he concludes
that his is the only possible interpretation of the text, when it
rather obviously is not. The BoLT and Silm represent the sort of
situation where if they were the result of cultural, rather than
personal artistic, evolutions, it would be an open question whether we
should *consider them to be* two different mythologies or one
mythology in different stages of development. There is no fact of the
matter to be discovered; only two different interpretations which may
then be better or worse defended.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>More interesting, of course, is the comment Frodo made:
>
>"There, I'll be an orc no more, and I'll bear no weapon fair or foul.
>Let them take me, if they will!"
>
>Sam is a bit more pragmatic, keeping Sting just in case!
>
>So what does that comment about not bearing any weapon say about Frodo?
As weak as he feels, he probably figures he couldn't put a fight
anyway. Although he manages to fight off Gollum in a fit of
Ring-protectiveness, even that is against a nearly starved and
diminished Gollum. Against even a single warrior-Orc, I doubt he could
have done much at this point. So against that we have the added weight
of the blade, which is overmuch for him now, and a desire to reject
things of the Enemy, I think, as the ability to reject the ultimate
Enemy's thing, the One Ring, is fading.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>The Nazgul _had_ no
>bodies to be destroyed, and they obviously could not die of old
>age.
How do you figure they had no bodies? The Witch-King had sinews
(albeit unseen sinews) and I assume the others were similar. Sounds
like a body to me. I think wraithification is mostly just the
Ring-state made permanent and the longer it goes on the "thinner" and
more "stretched out" the individual becomes, whatever that amounts to.
But the wraiths wear clothing, ride on horses and fell beasts, wield
weapons, get stabbed, and for that matter, burning up would seem to
require a body as well.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
>Book 6, Chapter 3: Mount Doom
Clearly more interesting than "The Land of Shadow". At least, I hope
that's why I had so few responses. I expect "The Scouring of the
Shire" should generate more discussion.
[Comments moved to be with corresponding text for easier reading of my
responses.]
>As Sam considers how they will get there, we read this:
>
>"...slowly a new dark thought grew in his mind. Never for long had hope
>died in his staunch heart, and always until now he had taken some
>thought for their return. But the bitter truth came home to him at last:
>at best their provision would take them to their goal; and when the task
>was done, there they would come to an end, alone, houseless, foodless in
>the midst of a terrible desert. There could be no return."
>[1] This can't be the very _first_ moment Sam considered that they might
>not return alive? Or maybe it is? What do you think?
I think it is the first time it really hits him. It's the food you
see. As long as there is something to eat, a hobbit can hope, but when
it is clear that the meals will run out, well, that's when you know
that it is a one-way ticket to the fiery mountain.
Also, he simply didn't start thinking about these things until he
thought Frodo was dead going over the mountains. He has followed and
trusted in others to lead. At this point, he's the one leading Frodo
and he has to start looking ahead and thinking about the future in
terms of their mission, not just "it'd be good to have some rope".
>"But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was turned to a new
>strength. Sam's plain hobbit-face grew stern, almost grim, as the will
>hardened in him, and he felt through all his limbs a thrill, as if he
>was turning into some creature of stone and steel that neither despair
>nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue."
>[2] What caused this hardening of Sam's will? The lembas or something
>else?
Sam's own inner strength. He's been saving it up most of the trip,
letting others lead. Here at the end, it is all down to him: Frodo can
only barely go on with Sam's help and encouragement. He does what he
has to do. Sam, our hero.
>This Sam sees the positive aspect of the rugged terrain. They will be
>able to creep through it unseen. Though Sam also realises it will be an
>evil road for the weary and exhausted. Frodo's only comment in this
>section is his response to Sam's urging that they must start moving: "I
>can manage it. I must."
>
>B) [Journeying east by the orc-road - "a wall of night at the last end
>of the world"]
>
>This section describes four days of travel by Sam and Frodo.
And one of the most condensed and detail-poor journeys of LotR. Even
the passage that went through the Paths of the Dead and happened "off
screen" is given more detailed treatment. I think it is partly that
even Tolkien doesn't want to slow things down too much describing the
country-side and every little bit of travel as we get this close to
the climax and also that there really isn't much to say -- the
landscape is bare and deserted while at this point we've had enough
descriptions of marching ruggedly onward to carry our imaginations
through. Not that there isn't any detail, but we are definitely out of
travel-description mode at this point.
What descriptions of the land we get are reasonable for a volcanic
plain, but also make me think of a cratered WWI battleground, pocked
and torn and devastated not by geological forces, but by shells and
gas and tramping feet and wheels and tracks and entrenchment.
>And Sam's rest is disturbed as well, by dreams of
>tortured beings and lights like gloating eyes. Once, when awoken
>suddenly, Sam sees pale lights like eyes.
>
>[4] Are these lights Gollum's eyes?
I don't see what else they could be. And Gollum would have seen Sam
awake, which explains why that's all that happens.
>Sam agrees, and suggests lightening the load by discarding most of the
>orc-gear and other items. Sam finds it particularly hard to part with
>his cooking gear.
This is very sad. I understand his care in making sure no Orc or
Gollum or other foul thing gets at his gear.
>"I know that such things happened, but I cannot see them. No taste of
>food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or
>flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark,
>Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to
>see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades."
>[7] What is this wheel of fire? Yes, I know it is the Ring, but it seems
>to be a vision of the Ring. Is it related to the later description of
>the Ring as "verily it seemed wrought of living fire" just before Gollum
>falls into the Fire?
I asked about the wheel of fire image last chapter. I don't think
anyone gets the symbolism if it is anything more than "ring" =
"circle" = "wheel". The fire aspect is more difficult and it may just
represent intensity, but it could also tie into the heat-forging of
the Ring or the spirit-as-fire metaphors that are used in several
places.
>Frodo does not speak much, saying: "I'm
>thirsty". After leaving the road, they won't find any water and will
>indeed be very thirsty.
Thirst tends to prevent much conversation.
>There is a strange interlude where Sam, on the first night off the road,
>is tortured by memories of water. He also debates with himself, and an
>alter ego tries to persuade him to give up the quest, and finds other
>problems, such as how to find the Cracks of Doom. Sam successfully
>ignores this annoying voice in his head.
>[9] Is this description of Sam's mind the clarity of mind of the doomed
>man? The peace of the man who will be executed in the morning?
It's the stubbornness of a simple hobbit with a job to do.
>The final day of travel to Mount Doom is another description of tortured
>travel. Very thirsty, a lot of pain, fumes in the air, but still these
>two indomitable hobbits struggle onwards. They find it very hard to
>sleep that night, partly due to cold and the anticipation of the final
>effort tomorrow, though Sam's mind is clearer and no internal debates
>take place in his head.
>[10] The final stages of the quest remind me of biblical scenes, such as
>the temptation scenes in the desert. Are Sam's internal debates and the
>thirst scenes meant to evoke such imagery?
I don't particularly think so. Any reasonable depiction of desert
travel will include thirst and Sam's worries are natural given that he
has had to face the probability that they will not be going home
again. Unless there is some less generic element here that strikes you
as Biblical, you're probably just finding your own applicability,
rather than deliberate reference.
>This section starts with Sam carrying Frodo up the slopes. It has the
>brilliant line:
>
>"Come, Mr. Frodo! I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you and it
>as well."
And it is made clear that the Ring-burden isn't really increasing
weight, but some spiritual burden, as Sam finds his load surprising
light.
>Sam and Frodo find this road, but then suddenly we read: "Slowly the
>light grew. Suddenly a sense of urgency which he did not understand came
>to Sam. It was almost as if he had been called: 'Now, now, or it will be
>too late!' He braced himself and got up. Frodo also seemed to have felt
>the call. He struggled to his knees."
>[11] OK. Who is doing this calling to Sam and Frodo? This injecting of a
>sense of urgency? Trying to synchronise the Ring destruction and the
>Battle of the Morannon. My guess is Gandalf himself.
I suppose Gandalf might have sent a quick "hurry if you can", but I
don't see why one would assume anyone is actually calling to them.
They're near the end of their journey and they know their own strength
is failing. A sense of urgency is a natural enough thing here.
>Unfortunately, another twist to the tale crops up here. Gollum chooses
>this time, or soon after, to make his return.
Well, to make his move. He's been following them, more or less
closely, since before they left the mountains.
>[13] Dying embers of Frodo's heart and will? What is this about?
It's one of those spirit-as-fire metaphors I mentioned above. His
heart and will are dying embers because they are being smothered by
the oppressive burden of the Ring.
>Also,
>exactly when did Gollum realise that Sam and Frodo intend to destroy the
>Ring. Why not attack them earlier?
I think he was still puzzled at Cirith Ungol. I don't know that he
realized the truth until he saw them head for Mount Doom and its
supply of molten rock. But the details are obscure. As for why not
earlier? Because last chapter and earlier this chapter, Sam was quick
enough to scare him off. But this is his last chance and he gets a
jump on Sam.
>This prompts the famous 'wheel of fire'/'talking Ring' scene [though I
>agree with the seeming consensus that Frodo and not the Ring is talking
>here]. Frodo faces down and cows Gollum using the power of the Ring, and
>Sam has another vision:
>
>"'Down, down!' [Frodo] gasped, clutching his hand to his breast, so that
>beneath the cover of his leather shirt he clasped the Ring. 'Down you
>creeping thing, and out of my path! Your time is at an end. You cannot
>betray me or slay me now.'"
>
>"Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw
>these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more
>than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and
>defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood
>stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its
>breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding
>voice.
>
>'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall
>be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'"
>
>[14] Simple question. What is going on here with a talking wheel of
>fire?
Frodo's voice seems to come from the Ring (symbolized by the wheel of
fire) because he is invoking the power of Smeagol's foolish oath by
the Precious. He commands Gollum with a curse that binds Gollum and
the Ring, to their mutual destruction. Quite lucky, that.
>Gollum backs away, the vision passes, and Sam steps forward between
>Gollum and Frodo. Sam tells Frodo to carry on and Frodo, in a distant
>and preoccupied mood, says "Yes, I must go on. Farewell, Sam! This is
>the end at last. On Mount Doom doom shall fall. Farewell!" Frodo then
>walks away slowly and erect.
>[15] Is Frodo still in control here? At what point does he lose control?
Control? Of what? If you mean control of his Ring-lust, he never had
that under more than limited control. But if you mean, does he still
at this point plan to destroy the Ring and complete his mission, I
would say yes -- why even bother going to the Sammath Naur if he
didn't?
>Sam then prepares to battle with Gollum, but Gollum falls whimpering to
>the ground and pleads for mercy, saying that he will turn to dust when
>the Ring is destroyed. Sam seems to come close to killing Gollum, but
>something restrains him. He curses Gollum and tells him to go away.
>Gollum flees and Sam follows Frodo (now out of sight). Gollum stops and
>warily follows Sam.
>
>[16] Sam's mercy to Gollum. Easy or difficult? Important or not?
Vital, obviously. Best case scenario without it is that Sam has time
to work out that the best thing for everyone, Frodo included, is to
take advantage of the narrowness of the passage and rush Frodo, taking
all three -- the two Hobbits and the Ring -- into the Fire. Worst and
only other case scenario is that Sauron reclaims the Ring and takes
over Middle-Earth.
>Sam then sees, by the red glare of the fires, Frodo standing on the edge
>of a fissure across this internal passageway inside Mount Doom. This is
>the Crack of Doom. But Frodo does not destroy the Ring. In a "voice
>clearer and more powerful than Sam had ever heard him use", we hear that
>Frodo's intentions have changed: "I have come. But I do not choose now
>to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!" And
>Frodo puts the Ring on his finger!
>
>[17] Did Frodo fail or not? Consider what Tolkien says in Letter 191.
Failed to throw the Ring into the Fire? Yes. Failed to resist the evil
power/temptation of the Ring? Yes. Failed his mission? No. The Ring
was destroyed. Took some luck, but Frodo set it up. Anyway, it was a
win.
>Sam is then hit from behind by Gollum. But more notably, we get an
>immediate reaction from Sauron:
>
>"The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all
>shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; and the
>magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and
>all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare. Then his wrath
>blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to
>choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his
>doom now hung."
>
>[18] Anyone else find Sauron's reaction funny?
No. Although I do find it amusing to think of Sauron noticing two
half-sized civilians have just waltzed into the ancient forges of his
power in the heart of his heavily-fortified land and addressing his
available guards and captains: "Just what am I paying you for?" It's
like Hitler walked into his bathroom and found a couple of English
school boys planting a bomb in the toilet. That sort of breech of
security just shouldn't happen.
>Of more immediate concern is the destruction being wrought by Mount
>Doom. A full-scale eruption seems to be in progress. The Nazgul are
>destroyed by this (if not by the destruction of the Ring), and it seems
>Sam and Frodo will be in peril. But this is not made clear until the
>next chapter. Here, we merely have a gentle epilogue as Sam and Frodo
>talk on the slopes of Mount Doom as the world crumbles around them.
>
>[20] Were the Nazgul destroyed by the eruption or destruction of the
>Ring?
Yes. Okay, I'm going with the destruction of the Ring, seeing as how
their own Rings were obviously part of continued wraithification,
since if that process were over and done with, Sauron could have
recycled the Nine to make more wraiths. The eruption might have sped
things up a bit.
>The horrendous descriptions of Frodo's torments in this chapter are
>rounded off with descriptions of a more normal Frodo:
>
>"...there was Frodo, pale and worn, and yet himself again; and in his
>eyes there was peace now, neither strain of will, nor madness, nor any
>fear. His burden was taken away. There was the dear master of the sweet
>days in the Shire."
>
>[21] Has Frodo really recovered? Does he change later and thoughts prey
>on his mind, or are we (and Sam) deceived here into thinking that we
>really have the old Frodo back?
Completely recovered? Of course not! But he's much better than he was
moments before, so he has recovered quite a bit. He is no longer under
the burden of the Ring and he is never under *that* load again. The
loss of the Ring and his sense of guilt over his "failure", not to
mention the lingering wounds the Nazgul and Shelob left him, are
another matter, but in this moment of sudden freedom, they aren't
bothering him.
>Sam reacts with absolute joy. Frodo then recalls Gandalf's words and
>closes the chapter with these words that sum up what has happened:
>
>"But do you remember Gandalf's words: Even Gollum may have something yet
>to do? But for him, Sam, I could not have destroyed the Ring. The Quest
>would have been in vain, even at the bitter end. So let us forgive him!
>For the Quest is achieved, and now all is over. I am glad you are here
>with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam."
>
>[22] How crucial is Gollum to the tale? Do you feel pity for Gollum?
>Could you forgive someone who has just bitten off your finger? Can you
>understand the torment it seems Frodo and Gollum were suffering under?
>Just how evil was this Ring?
Gollum is absolutely critical. Not quite indispensable plotwise, as
Sam could have sacrificed himself and Frodo and little beyond their
own fates would have changed. But thematically, the pity shown to
Gollum is central.
Pity for Gollum? Yes. Rather like the pity I felt for Rodney King
after the L.A. Riots that are forever to be linked to his name.
Neither is a sympathetic character by normal standards, but each was
caught up in an evil so much larger than himself, so out of proportion
to his own petty faults, that cold indeed is the heart that will not
be moved by such a scene.
Bit off my finger and saved me from myself? From a far worse fate at
the hands of Sauron? Saved the world? Died himself as a result? Was so
maddened he could scarcely have done otherwise? Yes, I could forgive
him, especially if I figured I was just going to have to lay down and
die now anyway and wanted to save my energy to comfort my loyal
servant.
I think I have a rough idea of Frodo's and Gollum's suffering,
although I've never experienced any very exact analog.
Let me put it to you this way -- in order to say "the Ring was *this*
evil" and indicate it correctly by holding your hands apart, you'd
need to be built like King Kong or Godzilla.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
AC
Considering the vast similiarities, even it were presented as one an earlier
mythology and one a later, I doubt you'd see too many people who claimed
them to be separate. It is, in my opinion at least, an indefensible
position. It is selected simply to be contrary.
Larry Swain
R. Dan Henry wrote:
> On 9 Mar 2005 16:23:28 GMT, AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Oh yeah, the guy that claims BoLT and Silm are two different mythologies is
>>just steeping in credibility.
>
>
> That's not an indefensible position -- in fact, Martinez rarely makes
> the fault of taking an indefensible position.
I beg to differ. No, not every position by any means, but MM does hold
a handful of positions that are peculiar to him that are indefensible,
and in a couple of cases patently ridiculous, but he holds them as if
his very life depended on it.
Rather, he concludes
> that his is the only possible interpretation of the text, when it
> rather obviously is not. The BoLT and Silm represent the sort of
> situation where if they were the result of cultural, rather than
> personal artistic, evolutions, it would be an open question whether we
> should *consider them to be* two different mythologies or one
> mythology in different stages of development.
I'm not sure what you mean here. A) Tolkien's dropping of elements in
BolT seems to me rather personal and artistic and B) the evolution of
what became the Silm is easily demonstrable as an evolution from BoLT to
the Silm from the texts themselves, from Tolkien's own comments, and
from CT's comments. So I don't see how this is an open question,
particularly one that revolves around whether if there are two one is
"for England" and the other "of England" as if that distinction were a
large and significant one.
Larry Swain
HMM, I read this rather in an inverted heroic way. Beowulf is described
as eschewing weapons in his battle with Grendel. But more to the point
here I think is Dream of the Rood where Christ is depicted as a Germanic
warrior/hero who strips himself and embraces the cross, despised though
it is. Seems like we have Frodo doing the same and in the same kind of
heroic manner: rejecting weapons and embracing the hard, despised road
to almost certain death.
When one is weak as Frodo is, one often grasps to one's source of what
little strength or power one has, in this case weapons and disguise.
Stan Brown
>
>
>I'd thought Eowyn thrust too high for that and Merry too low! :-)
[spitting tea all over the screen]
Stan Brown
>I beg to differ. No, not every position by any means, but MM does hold
>a handful of positions that are peculiar to him that are indefensible,
"'Name him not!' said Gandalf, and for a moment it seemed that a
cloud of pain passed over his face, and he sat silent, looking old
as death."
Stan Brown
><the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>>The Nazgul _had_ no
>>bodies to be destroyed, and they obviously could not die of old
>>age.
>
>How do you figure they had no bodies? The Witch-King had sinews
>(albeit unseen sinews) and I assume the others were similar.
I stand corrected. I looked back at my article that you quoted, and
I can't figure out what if anything I may have meant, but what I
said was wrong. I agree that they had invisible bodies, not no
bodies. "Unseen sinews" is pretty darn persuasive. (And I think
also of Aragorn's "to give shape to their nothingness" -- clearly
they had bodies that their robes molded to.)
R. Dan Henry
having an "iron crown". Sauron paying a little homage to his old boss?
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Christopher Kreuzer
I thought it was more to do with Frodo becoming 'Wise' and 'growing
spiritually'. Much as Saruman says later: "You have grown, Halfling".
Which directly follows another example of pacifism from Frodo, in 'The
Scouring of the Shire' (don't kill Saruman). And Frodo consistently,
throughout the rest of the book, refuses to bear weapons. Both at the
Field of Cormallen (though Gandalf gently insists - for some strange
reason) and back in the Shire.
It seems to me that this quote of Frodo's is more a general rejection of
war. Which could speak to Tolkien's experiences in WW1.
Christopher Kreuzer
> > "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >>More interesting, of course, is the comment Frodo made:
> >>
> >>"There, I'll be an orc no more, and I'll bear no weapon fair or
foul.
> >>Let them take me, if they will!"
> >>
> >>Sam is a bit more pragmatic, keeping Sting just in case!
> >>
> >>So what does that comment about not bearing any weapon say
> >>about Frodo?
<snip>
> HMM, I read this rather in an inverted heroic way. Beowulf is
described
> as eschewing weapons in his battle with Grendel. But more to the
point
> here I think is Dream of the Rood where Christ is depicted as a
Germanic
> warrior/hero who strips himself and embraces the cross, despised
though
> it is.
Interesting! Frodo does indeed strip himself of much of his orc
garments. And he does, as you say, chose (not sure about embrace) the
road of hardship.
> Seems like we have Frodo doing the same and in the same kind of
> heroic manner: rejecting weapons and embracing the hard, despised road
> to almost certain death.
Given this biblical similarity, what do you think of the other
suggestion I made about this chapter, with regards to Sam's talking to
himself in a thirst-induced temptation scene?
It is the point where they leave the road and set out across the
volcanic plain of Gorgoroth (which itself sounds very biblical for some
reason) on the last two days of their journey. Sam goes without water:
"...and now as once more the night of Mordor closed over them, through
all his thoughts there came the memory of water; and every brook or
stream or fount that he had ever seen, under green willow-shades or
twinkling in the sun, danced and rippled for his torment behind the
blindness of his eyes."
[There follows immediately, a memory of Rosie Cotton, which may justify
the sentences that Peter Jackson gave Sam on Mount Doom about how he
would have married her if they had got back]
But then Sam begins an internal debate, and this internal voice is
really quite separated from real-Sam (similar to Gollum's debate in a
way, though I would be extremely hesistant to draw parallels). The
amazing thing is that this voice says:
"There you are! It's all quite useless. He said so himself. You are the
fool, going on hoping and toiling. You could have lain down and gone to
sleep together days ago, if you hadn't been so dogged. But you'll die
just the same, or worse. You might just as well lie down now and give it
up. You'll never get to the top anyway."
Luckily, real-Sam rejects this. But I find this sudden blatant defeatism
quite surprising. What is going on here? By "He said so himself", does
Sam mean that Frodo earlier said it was quite useless?
Is this passage just Tolkien showing us Sam's internal debates and
temptations, or showing us the close to unbalanced mind of starved and
thirsty people? Or something more than that?
The biblical reference I vaguely made, was to the bit about Jesus's
temptation in the desert. Burning bush and all that. Dare I say burning
wheel of fire and Ring/Satan voices? :-)
Obviously, I don't want to make too direct a comparison, but does anyone
agree that there are similarities between the stories?
> When one is weak as Frodo is, one often grasps to one's source of what
> little strength or power one has, in this case weapons and disguise.
"grasps to one's source"?
Are you trying to say that Frodo eschews weapons and disguise? Because
it sounds like you are saying he grasps them, rather than rejects them
(which is clearly what he does).
Christopher Kreuzer
> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
> >Book 6, Chapter 3: Mount Doom
<snip>
> >As Sam considers how they will get there, we read this:
> >
> >"...slowly a new dark thought grew in his mind. Never for long had
hope
> >died in his staunch heart, and always until now he had taken some
> >thought for their return. But the bitter truth came home to him at
last:
> >at best their provision would take them to their goal; and when the
task
> >was done, there they would come to an end, alone, houseless, foodless
> > in the midst of a terrible desert. There could be no return."
>
> >[1] This can't be the very _first_ moment Sam considered that they
might
> >not return alive? Or maybe it is? What do you think?
I think there were other suggestions earlier, but I can't remember them
now, which is annoying as I am sure they were mentioned in a CotW
discussion.
> I think it is the first time it really hits him. It's the food you
> see. As long as there is something to eat, a hobbit can hope, but when
> it is clear that the meals will run out, well, that's when you know
> that it is a one-way ticket to the fiery mountain.
:-)
> Also, he simply didn't start thinking about these things until he
> thought Frodo was dead going over the mountains. He has followed and
> trusted in others to lead. At this point, he's the one leading Frodo
> and he has to start looking ahead and thinking about the future in
> terms of their mission, not just "it'd be good to have some rope".
I get the impression that Sam begins to take a leading role as early as
Ithilien before they meet Faramir. Though Gollum was their guide, so the
Sam-Frodo dynamic is obscured. It is a lot clearer in these three
chapters in Book 6.
> >"But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was turned to a
new
> >strength. Sam's plain hobbit-face grew stern, almost grim, as the
will
> >hardened in him, and he felt through all his limbs a thrill, as if he
> >was turning into some creature of stone and steel that neither
despair
> >nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue."
>
> >[2] What caused this hardening of Sam's will? The lembas or something
> >else?
>
> Sam's own inner strength. He's been saving it up most of the trip,
> letting others lead. Here at the end, it is all down to him: Frodo can
> only barely go on with Sam's help and encouragement. He does what he
> has to do. Sam, our hero.
I like the lembas idea, myself:
"The lembas had a virtue without which they would long ago have lain
down to die. It did not satisfy desire, and at times Sam's mind was
filled with the memories of food, and the longing for simple bread and
meats. And yet this waybread of the Elves had a potency that increased
as travellers relied on it alone and did not mingle it with other foods.
It fed the will, and it gave strength to endure, and to master sinew and
limb beyond the measure of mortal kind." (Mount Doom)
This seems to tie in pretty well with the previous passage, as the
lembas passage seems to be sustaining the physical aspect of Sam and
Frodo by feeding the will. It does not satisfy desire, but it _does_
allow "mastering of sinew and limb", and does feed the will. So we have
to distinguish between will and desire. The original quote does say that
Sam's will "hardened", though maybe we shouldn't be ignoring the use of
the word 'hope', which is a central theme of Tolkien's works: "[hope]
was turned to a new strength".
> >This Sam sees the positive aspect of the rugged terrain. They will be
> >able to creep through it unseen. Though Sam also realises it will be
an
> >evil road for the weary and exhausted. Frodo's only comment in this
> >section is his response to Sam's urging that they must start moving:
"I
> >can manage it. I must."
> >
> >B) [Journeying east by the orc-road - "a wall of night at the last
end
> >of the world"]
> >
> >This section describes four days of travel by Sam and Frodo.
>
> And one of the most condensed and detail-poor journeys of LotR.
Good point.
> Even the passage that went through the Paths of the Dead and happened
> "off screen" is given more detailed treatment. I think it is partly
that
> even Tolkien doesn't want to slow things down too much describing the
> country-side and every little bit of travel as we get this close to
> the climax and also that there really isn't much to say -- the
> landscape is bare and deserted while at this point we've had enough
> descriptions of marching ruggedly onward to carry our imaginations
> through. Not that there isn't any detail, but we are definitely out of
> travel-description mode at this point.
Yes. Agree completely.
> What descriptions of the land we get are reasonable for a volcanic
> plain, but also make me think of a cratered WWI battleground, pocked
> and torn and devastated not by geological forces, but by shells and
> gas and tramping feet and wheels and tracks and entrenchment.
By gas? That wouldn't shape the WW1 landscape, unless you mean the
volcanic gases remind you of the poison gases of WW1?
<snip>
> >"I know that such things happened, but I cannot see them. No taste of
> >food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass
or
> >flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the
dark,
> >Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin
to
> >see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades."
>
> >[7] What is this wheel of fire? Yes, I know it is the Ring, but it
seems
> >to be a vision of the Ring. Is it related to the later description of
> >the Ring as "verily it seemed wrought of living fire" just before
Gollum
> >falls into the Fire?
>
> I asked about the wheel of fire image last chapter. I don't think
> anyone gets the symbolism if it is anything more than "ring" =
> "circle" = "wheel". The fire aspect is more difficult and it may just
> represent intensity, but it could also tie into the heat-forging of
> the Ring or the spirit-as-fire metaphors that are used in several
> places.
It could be both. The spirit-as-fire metaphor is obvious, but it could
maybe even be as a literal 'Unseen' aspect of the Ring (like the spirits
of Elves are seen as white light).
Frodo's comment about "even with my waking eyes", suggests that he has
been dreaming of the Ring, or else he is severely hallucinating. Hmm.
Sleep deprivation theory time?
The bit about the Ring becoming more active as it approaches the Sammath
Naur (the place of its forging) also makes sense for this image of a
wheel of fire. Actually in the Sammath Naur, as Gollum holds up the
Ring, and also _after_ Frodo has claimed it (which might activate it
even more), we read that the Ring is shining with light:
"But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger
still thrust within its circle. It shone now as if verily it was wrought
of living fire."
Which is similar, but maybe different, to what Isildur observed. Unless
of course it is Frodo's finger shining as if wrought of living fire...
:-)
[Not quite as silly as it sounds, as Gandalf has commented, in
Rivendell, about Frodo becoming filled with a clear light, and Sam also
sees this in Ithilien, but we probably need to distinguish here between
clear white light (Frodo, Glorfindel, good things) and fiery, red/yellow
light (the Ring, Mount Doom, evil things).]
What I find a bit confusing is the use of a wheel metaphor. This may
just be to avoid saying "ring of fire", which would be too obvious and
even confusing and misleading. But to my mind, wheel suggests _movement_
and flickering flames, maybe even some wheel spokes (for some reason). I
realise this may not be the image Tolkien was trying to conjure, but
that is what I sometimes imagine. I guess he just meant a flaming
ring-shape. Though the use of a wheel-metaphor also implies an
_increase_ in size, which is consistent with what we read elsewhere.
Imagine the flaming Ringworld of Fire!
This might be a good place to bring together all three "wheel of fire"
quotes that Frodo (twice) and the narrator (once, Sam's vision) use:
"And I'm so tired. And the Ring is so heavy, Sam. And I begin to see it
in my mind all the time, like a great wheel of fire." (The Land of
Shadow)
"I am naked in the dark. Sam, and there is no veil between me and the
wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else
fades." (Mount Doom)
"...before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in
white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there
spoke a commanding voice." (Mount Doom)
And maybe add a fourth and fifth:
"But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger
still thrust within its circle. It shone now as if verily it was wrought
of living fire." (Mount Doom)
"It was hot when I first took it, hot as a glede, and my hand was
scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of
it [...] the writing upon it, which at first was as clear as red
flame..." (The Council of Elrond)
OK, the last quote is not that relevant, but the Gollum quote is notable
for the _living_ fire reference (tying into the spiritual bits). And
there is one more quote about circular fiery objects:
"In the black abyss there appeared a single Eye that slowly grew until
it filled nearly all the Mirror. So terrible was it that Frodo stood
rooted, unable to cry out or to withdraw his gaze. The Eye was rimmed
with fire..." (The Mirror of Galadriel)
But one question that just struck me. In Sam's vision on the slopes of
Mount Doom, he sees Frodo "robed in white". What is that all about?
> >Frodo does not speak much, saying: "I'm
> >thirsty". After leaving the road, they won't find any water and will
> >indeed be very thirsty.
>
> Thirst tends to prevent much conversation.
Though is it not also showing Frodo's withdrawal. He is fighting a
massive internal battle against the Ring, and is conserving his
strength?
> >There is a strange interlude where Sam, on the first night off the
road,
> >is tortured by memories of water. He also debates with himself, and
an
> >alter ego tries to persuade him to give up the quest, and finds other
> >problems, such as how to find the Cracks of Doom. Sam successfully
> >ignores this annoying voice in his head.
>
> >[9] Is this description of Sam's mind the clarity of mind of the
doomed
> >man? The peace of the man who will be executed in the morning?
Oops. Not sure if you rearranged wrong, or I put the wrong reference in
(I agree that putting questions with the summary text is best, but a bit
late now), but the annoying voice in the head bit was what reminded me
of the biblical temptation in the desert scenes. Voices in the head and
all that.
The bit about clarity of mind referred to this (the next night, which is
free from these voices in the head):
"To his surprise he felt tired but lighter, and his head seemed clear
again. No more debates disturbed his mind. He knew all the arguments of
despair and would not listen to them. His will was set, and only death
would break it."
The bit about "his will was set, and only death would break it", seems
once again similar, even more so than the other passage, to the northern
heroic spirit evoked in 'The Homecoming...':
"Mind shall not falter nor mood waver,
Though doom shall come and dark conquer."
> It's the stubbornness of a simple hobbit with a job to do.
Occam's Razor? :-)
> >The final day of travel to Mount Doom is another description of
> >tortured travel. Very thirsty, a lot of pain, fumes in the air, but
still
> >these two indomitable hobbits struggle onwards. They find it very
> >hard to sleep that night, partly due to cold and the anticipation of
the
> >final effort tomorrow, though Sam's mind is clearer and no internal
> >debates take place in his head.
>
> >[10] The final stages of the quest remind me of biblical scenes, such
as
> >the temptation scenes in the desert. Are Sam's internal debates and
the
> >thirst scenes meant to evoke such imagery?
>
> I don't particularly think so. Any reasonable depiction of desert
> travel will include thirst and Sam's worries are natural given that he
> has had to face the probability that they will not be going home
> again. Unless there is some less generic element here that strikes you
> as Biblical, you're probably just finding your own applicability,
> rather than deliberate reference.
I was actually referring to the earlier passage where Sam is effectively
talking to a voice inside his head. See above and quotes elsewhere.
<snip>
> >Sam and Frodo find this road, but then suddenly we read: "Slowly the
> >light grew. Suddenly a sense of urgency which he did not understand
> >came to Sam. It was almost as if he had been called: 'Now, now, or it
> >will be too late!' He braced himself and got up. Frodo also seemed to
> >have felt the call. He struggled to his knees."
>
> >[11] OK. Who is doing this calling to Sam and Frodo? This injecting
> >of a sense of urgency? Trying to synchronise the Ring destruction and
> >the Battle of the Morannon. My guess is Gandalf himself.
>
> I suppose Gandalf might have sent a quick "hurry if you can", but I
> don't see why one would assume anyone is actually calling to them.
> They're near the end of their journey and they know their own strength
> is failing. A sense of urgency is a natural enough thing here.
Really? That would be OK if someone hadn't inserted that annoying
passage: "It was almost as if he had been called..." Now I think it is
disingenuous to say (though I have done in the past) that the use of
"almost as if" means that there is no calling going on. To do that you
can just omit the 'calling' bit altogether:
"Slowly the light grew. Suddenly a sense of urgency which he did not
understand came to Sam. He braced himself and got up. Frodo also seemed
to feel the urgency. He struggled to his knees." (highly altered version
of the quote)
Compare to the real thing, with omitted bit in asterisks:
"Slowly the light grew. Suddenly a sense of urgency which he did not
understand came to Sam. *It was almost as if he had been called: 'Now,
now, or it will be too late!'* He braced himself and got up. Frodo also
seemed to *have felt the call*. He struggled to his knees."
Note that in the latter sentence the acknowledgement of the existence of
the call by the use of the phrase 'the call', though Tolkien hedges
throughout with phraseology like 'almost as if' and 'seemed to'. And
also, for both Sam and Frodo, it is a _sense_ or _feeling_ rather than a
call, which points to either an innate subconcious thought, or a
prompted subconscious thought (is a subconscious thought an oxymoron?).
And Sam is said not to understand the urgency, so how can you say: "A
sense of urgency is a natural enough thing here."?
I don't think we can really answer the question, but I think we can say
that Tolkien leaves several possibilities open, and the mundane answer
is not the most likely one.
<snip>
> >'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you
shall
> >be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'"
> >
> >[14] Simple question. What is going on here with a talking wheel of
> >fire?
>
> Frodo's voice seems to come from the Ring (symbolized by the wheel of
> fire) because he is invoking the power of Smeagol's foolish oath by
> the Precious. He commands Gollum with a curse that binds Gollum and
> the Ring, to their mutual destruction. Quite lucky, that.
And a nice summary of the consensus position!
Does no-one want to argue it is the Ring talking? :-)
> >Gollum backs away, the vision passes, and Sam steps forward between
> >Gollum and Frodo. Sam tells Frodo to carry on and Frodo, in a distant
> >and preoccupied mood, says "Yes, I must go on. Farewell, Sam! This is
> >the end at last. On Mount Doom doom shall fall. Farewell!" Frodo then
> >walks away slowly and erect.
>
> >[15] Is Frodo still in control here? At what point does he lose
control?
>
> Control? Of what?
Himself. Which covers both your answers below.
> If you mean control of his Ring-lust, he never had
> that under more than limited control.
Though the power of the Ring grew, and the process was gradual, as
Gandalf said back in 'The Shadow of the Past':
"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he
does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last
every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make
himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible
permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power
that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or
well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will
last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him."
It is ironic that Frodo replies:
"How terrifying!"
...and that Sam is also hearing this.
Now here they both are, in the very Land of Mordor, seeing and feeling
the very effects that Gandalf warned them about. You can't say they
weren't warned!
> But if you mean, does he still
> at this point plan to destroy the Ring and complete his mission, I
> would say yes -- why even bother going to the Sammath Naur if he
> didn't?
Frodo's attitude here though appears, to me, to be very fatalistic.
Almost like several other moments we've seen Frodo acting a bit strange.
The bit where he prepares to walk up to the Black Gate, the bit where he
runs out of Shelob's Lair towards the tower of Cirith Ungol, the bit
where he throws off his orc-gear and rejects weapons. Here he seems
almost in a trance:
"Frodo looked at him as if at one now far away. 'Yes, I must go on,' he
said. 'Farewell, Sam! This is the end at last. On Mount Doom doom shall
fall. Farewell!' He turned and went on, walking slowly but erect up the
climbing path."
Firstly, Frodo is "far away" from Sam, which suggests he is mentally
distant and caught up in his own thoughts. He says _farewell_ to Sam, as
if he does not expect to return (fair enough) and also makes that quote
which is either brilliant or annoying (depending on your taste):
"On Mount Doom doom shall fall".
Now I wonder if this might not be a little play on words. The 'doom' of
Mount Doom might refer to the catastrophic events about to befall. The
end of one or other of the powers battling for supremacy. As in the
modern sense of the word. The 'doom' of doom (the second 'doom' in the
sentence) might be the older sense of 'judgement (day)' or something. Or
even the other way around, as this word 'doom' confuses me so much!
Getting back to the issue of control. I was trying to suggest that maybe
Frodo is sort of under the power of the Ring here, or maybe
subconsciously already intends to claim the Ring, and kind of realises
that the best place to do this is at the Sammath Naur. Not really that
tenable a theory, but a thought. It makes more sense that the final
yielding of Frodo's will takes place at the Sammath Naur, but I would
say that this trance-like state might be a sign that the end is near,
that Frodo's will has almost reached its breaking point.
<snip>
> >[18] Anyone else find Sauron's reaction funny?
>
> No. Although I do find it amusing to think of Sauron noticing two
> half-sized civilians have just waltzed into the ancient forges of his
> power in the heart of his heavily-fortified land and addressing his
> available guards and captains: "Just what am I paying you for?" It's
> like Hitler walked into his bathroom and found a couple of English
> school boys planting a bomb in the toilet. That sort of breech of
> security just shouldn't happen.
LOL! Did you see that Calvin and Hobbes inspired cartoon on someone's
website (I forget who) where the Dark Lord is told by the WK that they
have a girl with them. And Sauron orders the WK to destroy her?
<snip>
> >The horrendous descriptions of Frodo's torments in this chapter are
> >rounded off with descriptions of a more normal Frodo:
> >
> >"...there was Frodo, pale and worn, and yet himself again; and in his
> >eyes there was peace now, neither strain of will, nor madness, nor
any
> >fear. His burden was taken away. There was the dear master of the
sweet
> >days in the Shire."
> >
> >[21] Has Frodo really recovered? Does he change later and thoughts
> >prey on his mind, or are we (and Sam) deceived here into thinking
that
> >we really have the old Frodo back?
>
> Completely recovered? Of course not! But he's much better than he was
> moments before, so he has recovered quite a bit. He is no longer under
> the burden of the Ring and he is never under *that* load again. The
> loss of the Ring and his sense of guilt over his "failure", not to
> mention the lingering wounds the Nazgul and Shelob left him, are
> another matter, but in this moment of sudden freedom, they aren't
> bothering him.
I think I understand a bit clearer now. Rather than the later effects
being a continuous influence from the Ring burden, you are saying that
there is a genuine period of recovery, and then a relapse (for the
wounds) and a succumbing to a _different_ disorder or mental malaise for
the guilt (which seems only to be mentioned in 'Letters'), though
nothing like as bad as the original burden of the Ring.
<snip>
> I think I have a rough idea of Frodo's and Gollum's suffering,
> although I've never experienced any very exact analog.
Now here is an interesting question.
The reader can try to imagine based on his experiences, but does anyone
think that Tolkien was drawing on his _own_ experiences? How does one
write about pain and torment without having your own experiences to draw
on? I suspect Tolkien would have hated anyone asking him this question,
but maybe there are some answers.
Dirk Thierbach
> "R. Dan Henry" <danh...@inreach.com> wrote
>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 03:12:10 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
>> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>> [7] What is this wheel of fire? Yes, I know it is the Ring, but it
>>> seems to be a vision of the Ring. Is it related to the later
>>> description of the Ring as "verily it seemed wrought of living
>>> fire" just before Gollum falls into the Fire?
>> I asked about the wheel of fire image last chapter. I don't think
>> anyone gets the symbolism if it is anything more than "ring" =
>> "circle" = "wheel".
> What I find a bit confusing is the use of a wheel metaphor. This may
> just be to avoid saying "ring of fire", which would be too obvious and
> even confusing and misleading.
The "wheel of fire" seems to show up in many mythologies. I did a very
quick Google search, and results include connections to Nordic Yule
(Jul) celebration, Yule meaning "wheel of fire", to the Old Testament
Prophet Ezekiel's vision of the wheel of fire, to the Greek legend of
Ixion punished on a wheel of fire, and to the Indian/Aryan religious
symbol of blessing, the Swastika (not the one the Nazis made perverted
use of, but the original symbol). I also remember seeing a documentary
about a tradition which is still alive in some smaller German villages
(but now on easter, IIRC) of attaching straw to wheels, setting them
ablaze, and rolling them downhill in the dark. Quite fascinating
to look at.
It's quite possible there are more; it looks like a quite universal
symbol.
I have no idea which connection Tolkien had in mind, if any, but maybe
there is someone you can make a better informed guess than I could
(because I really don't know any details).
In any case, I don't think it's just to avoid the expression "ring".
- Dirk
Christopher Kreuzer
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> "R. Dan Henry" <danh...@inreach.com> wrote
>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 03:12:10 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
>>> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>> [7] What is this wheel of fire? Yes, I know it is the Ring, but it
>>>> seems to be a vision of the Ring. Is it related to the later
>>>> description of the Ring as "verily it seemed wrought of living
>>>> fire" just before Gollum falls into the Fire?
>
>>> I asked about the wheel of fire image last chapter. I don't think
>>> anyone gets the symbolism if it is anything more than "ring" =
>>> "circle" = "wheel".
>
>> What I find a bit confusing is the use of a wheel metaphor. This may
>> just be to avoid saying "ring of fire", which would be too obvious
>> and even confusing and misleading.
>
> The "wheel of fire" seems to show up in many mythologies. I did a very
> quick Google search
Fascinating results!
> and results include connections to Nordic Yule
> (Jul) celebration, Yule meaning "wheel of fire"
The use of a wheel in some cases may be a subtle time metaphor. In the
sense that the movement of a wheel implies the continual and circular
flow of time as it cycles throughout the seasons of the year.
I seem to recall a certain series of books called the 'Wheel of Time'...
And the Greek legend of Sisiphyus rolling a stone up a hill, only to be
doomed for it to roll back down again and for him to have to roll it up
again, also ties in with repetitive circular motions.
> to the Old Testament
> Prophet Ezekiel's vision of the wheel of fire to the Greek legend of
> Ixion punished on a wheel of fire
These might be more closely linked to the Frodo/Ring example. What are
the details of the Ezekeil vision?
> and to the Indian/Aryan religious
> symbol of blessing, the Swastika (not the one the Nazis made perverted
> use of, but the original symbol). I also remember seeing a documentary
> about a tradition which is still alive in some smaller German villages
> (but now on easter, IIRC) of attaching straw to wheels, setting them
> ablaze, and rolling them downhill in the dark. Quite fascinating
> to look at.
>
> It's quite possible there are more; it looks like a quite universal
> symbol.
Maybe it is linked to sightings of comets? Though the general impression
there is of flaming hair streaming backwards.
Or could it be as simple as a linking and celebration of two of the most
powerful and oldest forms of technology: fire and the wheel?
> I have no idea which connection Tolkien had in mind, if any, but maybe
> there is someone you can make a better informed guess than I could
> (because I really don't know any details).
I wonder if anyone knows any anthropological references?
> In any case, I don't think it's just to avoid the expression "ring".
Well, I think you've gone some way to answering the questions people had
about the Ring as a 'wheel of fire'. Thanks!
Conrad Dunkerson
> On 9 Mar 2005 16:23:28 GMT, AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Oh yeah, the guy that claims BoLT and Silm are two different
mythologies is
>> just steeping in credibility.
> That's not an indefensible position
There are certainly ways to define the terms such that these texts can
be described as 'different mythologies' in some sense... given that
texts from the two time periods were not identical such a semantic
division is inherently possible (though then largely irrelevant).
The problem is that Michael goes further in claiming that JRRT and CT
considered these to be, and described them as, 'separate
mythologies'... and that certainly IS an "indefensile position". Both
Tolkiens repeatedly and consistently referred to the entire evolving
body of Middle-earth texts as a single mythology.
> -- in fact, Martinez rarely makes the fault of taking an indefensible
> position.
Rarely in comparison to quantity of everything that he writes about
Tolkien? Likely so.
Rarely in terms of chronological frequency? Not really.
> Rather, he concludes that his is the only possible interpretation of the
> text, when it rather obviously is not.
Which... would make that an indefensible position. :]
R. Dan Henry
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>"R. Dan Henry" <danh...@inreach.com> wrote
>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 03:12:10 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
>> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
>> >Book 6, Chapter 3: Mount Doom
>> >[2] What caused this hardening of Sam's will? The lembas or something
>> >else?
>>
>> Sam's own inner strength. He's been saving it up most of the trip,
>> letting others lead. Here at the end, it is all down to him: Frodo can
>> only barely go on with Sam's help and encouragement. He does what he
>> has to do. Sam, our hero.
>
>I like the lembas idea, myself:
I'm not entirely dismissive of the idea that the lembas is a
contributing factor, but a number of my responses lately have been
offering mundane answers, not because I think they are necessarily the
"correct" answers, but to compensate for the tendency to overanalyze
and read into the text an excess of meaning.
>> What descriptions of the land we get are reasonable for a volcanic
>> plain, but also make me think of a cratered WWI battleground, pocked
>> and torn and devastated not by geological forces, but by shells and
>> gas and tramping feet and wheels and tracks and entrenchment.
>
>By gas? That wouldn't shape the WW1 landscape, unless you mean the
>volcanic gases remind you of the poison gases of WW1?
That's part of it. Don't forget that WWI was industrial war and there
would be a fair amount of smoke as well from engines and explosive
weaponry. Not to mention some denuded areas must have provided dust
clouds in the dry season. But the poison gasses were a factor in
killing off the wildlife and creating barren areas. Gorgoroth isn't
just a landscape, it is a *lifeless* landscape. It appears to be
utterly dead except for Sauron's armies (now passed on) and the
hobbitish intruders. We don't even see a Fly of the Eye; the hardy
life forms hanging on along the Morgai are not seen again. I consider
that part of the landscape.
Perhaps one of the reasons we get less travelogue in this chapter is
because JRR's list-the-plants technique doesn't work when there are no
plants. :-)
>> I asked about the wheel of fire image last chapter. I don't think
>> anyone gets the symbolism if it is anything more than "ring" =
>> "circle" = "wheel". The fire aspect is more difficult and it may just
>> represent intensity, but it could also tie into the heat-forging of
>> the Ring or the spirit-as-fire metaphors that are used in several
>> places.
>
>It could be both. The spirit-as-fire metaphor is obvious, but it could
>maybe even be as a literal 'Unseen' aspect of the Ring (like the spirits
>of Elves are seen as white light).
>
>Frodo's comment about "even with my waking eyes", suggests that he has
>been dreaming of the Ring, or else he is severely hallucinating. Hmm.
>Sleep deprivation theory time?
Oh, I think Sam and Frodo have to be half-hallucinatory at this point,
unless one credits the lembas with being able to prevent it. Frodo has
been dreaming of the Ring for some time, however, that much was
already clear. If I weren't feeling lazy, I'd look up some passage
where he refers to it.
I think Dirk has provided some answer as to why "wheel of fire", but
it remains frustratingly elusive as to detail. Perhaps Tolkien merely
tried the common image and liked it, so it stuck, without any deeper
symbolism intended.
>But one question that just struck me. In Sam's vision on the slopes of
>Mount Doom, he sees Frodo "robed in white". What is that all about?
I think Sam gets some "other vision", where he sees things as they
appear in the spirit world or, perhaps, symbolically, but the source
is uncertain. Sam has been through unusual experiences and perhaps he
has some innate spiritual ability that has awakened. [Aided by lemba
consumption?] Perhaps some greater power (Galadriel, Valar, Eru) has
gifted him with such visions. Perhaps the Ring is putting the images
in his mind. I think the "robed in white" is just emblematic of
Frodo's power on the other side, similar to Glorfindel, although with
differing origin. (I do not think he would still be "robed in white"
when he claimed the One -- one reason I think he is still on mission
even this late in the game.)
>> >Frodo does not speak much, saying: "I'm
>> >thirsty". After leaving the road, they won't find any water and will
>> >indeed be very thirsty.
>>
>> Thirst tends to prevent much conversation.
>
>Though is it not also showing Frodo's withdrawal. He is fighting a
>massive internal battle against the Ring, and is conserving his
>strength?
That's just me offering mundane explanations again.
>> It's the stubbornness of a simple hobbit with a job to do.
>
>Occam's Razor? :-)
Aided by lembas, perhaps, but I think that is indeed what it comes
down to. This is one case where I'm personally pretty strongly
inclined to my mundane explanation.
>I was actually referring to the earlier passage where Sam is effectively
>talking to a voice inside his head. See above and quotes elsewhere.
I wouldn't associate talking to a voice in one's head with the Bible,
although I'm not saying Tolkien might not have. Talking to oneself or
even personification of one's doubts aren't terribly uncommon, in
literature or in life. Especially as I'm pretty sure the hobbits would
be borderline hallucinatory at this point. Heat, strange fumes, light
rations (even if soul-sustaining), little water, little sleep, extreme
stress -- that says time to see visions.
>> >Sam and Frodo find this road, but then suddenly we read: "Slowly the
>> >light grew. Suddenly a sense of urgency which he did not understand
>> >came to Sam. It was almost as if he had been called: 'Now, now, or it
>> >will be too late!' He braced himself and got up. Frodo also seemed to
>> >have felt the call. He struggled to his knees."
>>
>> >[11] OK. Who is doing this calling to Sam and Frodo? This injecting
>> >of a sense of urgency? Trying to synchronise the Ring destruction and
>> >the Battle of the Morannon. My guess is Gandalf himself.
>>
>> I suppose Gandalf might have sent a quick "hurry if you can", but I
>> don't see why one would assume anyone is actually calling to them.
>> They're near the end of their journey and they know their own strength
>> is failing. A sense of urgency is a natural enough thing here.
>
>Really? That would be OK if someone hadn't inserted that annoying
>passage: "It was almost as if he had been called..." Now I think it is
>disingenuous to say (though I have done in the past) that the use of
>"almost as if" means that there is no calling going on. To do that you
>can just omit the 'calling' bit altogether:
No, I just need to maintain that they're a bit loopy by now and a
sense of urgency manifesting as a feeling of being called isn't at all
strange given that.
>And Sam is said not to understand the urgency, so how can you say: "A
>sense of urgency is a natural enough thing here."?
He's not thinking clearly. I stand by my original statement. Not as
the Truth, carved in stone, but as a reasonable interpretation. Could
have been Gandalf, Valar, Eru, or even the Ring hoping to get them to
its "special place" so Frodo's will could break. Or even a bit of
Sauron's own sense of urgency leaking out (after all, he's
will-transmitting to his troops).
>I don't think we can really answer the question, but I think we can say
>that Tolkien leaves several possibilities open, and the mundane answer
>is not the most likely one.
Sez you! :P
>> But if you mean, does he still
>> at this point plan to destroy the Ring and complete his mission, I
>> would say yes -- why even bother going to the Sammath Naur if he
>> didn't?
>
>Frodo's attitude here though appears, to me, to be very fatalistic.
It has been for at least two chapters. He ran out of hope some time
back and is just going on because that's his mission and Sam provides
some hope and strength to help keep him going. It's a slope he's been
sliding down since Minas Ithil at the least.
>Almost like several other moments we've seen Frodo acting a bit strange.
>The bit where he prepares to walk up to the Black Gate, the bit where he
>runs out of Shelob's Lair towards the tower of Cirith Ungol, the bit
>where he throws off his orc-gear and rejects weapons. Here he seems
>almost in a trance:
>
>"Frodo looked at him as if at one now far away. 'Yes, I must go on,' he
>said. 'Farewell, Sam! This is the end at last. On Mount Doom doom shall
>fall. Farewell!' He turned and went on, walking slowly but erect up the
>climbing path."
>
>Firstly, Frodo is "far away" from Sam, which suggests he is mentally
>distant and caught up in his own thoughts. He says _farewell_ to Sam, as
>if he does not expect to return (fair enough) and also makes that quote
>which is either brilliant or annoying (depending on your taste):
>
>"On Mount Doom doom shall fall".
He's pretty obviously on his last metaphorical spiritual legs here,
but still plodding on. His will is almost subdued -- note that when
the Ring *does* take over, he is (seemingly) strong again and he gets
a burst of willful strength when protecting the Ring from Gollum. It
is *fighting down the urging of the Ring* that makes him weaker and
leaves him so little strength for anything else, thus making him grow
ever more distant and weak, until he needs everything just to walk up
the mountain.
>Getting back to the issue of control. I was trying to suggest that maybe
>Frodo is sort of under the power of the Ring here, or maybe
He has been "sort of under the power of the Ring" from the moment he
received it. That is its nature. See above for why I think this is
very late in the struggle, not after the conclusion. I do not think he
changes his mind until he does claim it.
>subconsciously already intends to claim the Ring, and kind of realises
>that the best place to do this is at the Sammath Naur. Not really that
>tenable a theory, but a thought.
Best place for whom?
The Ring? Kind of close to the Fire, should Sam decide to complete the
mission and "burn the Master in order to save him". Two hobbits, the
Ring, and a splash into lava would be bad for the Ring. Sauron would
notice Frodo claim the Ring on the slopes of Mount Doom, I should
think, and more quickly recover his Ring with the bearer caught
exposed in the open.
Frodo? The best place for him to claim the Ring is somewhere around
the Havens or at least behind the walls of Minas Tirith, where he
could try to raise an army of supporters rather being on Sauron's
doorstep.
>It makes more sense that the final
>yielding of Frodo's will takes place at the Sammath Naur, but I would
>say that this trance-like state might be a sign that the end is near,
>that Frodo's will has almost reached its breaking point.
Near, yes, but not there yet. And it has been a fairly steady process
for many chapters (and a slow beginning from even in the Shire).
Frodo's words when he claims the Ring also suggest he has just then
abandoned his quest and changed course:
'I have come,' he said. 'But I do not choose /now/ to do what I came
to do. I will not do this deed.['] [emphasis mine] He so speaks at the
very Crack of Doom. He appears to have reached the very point of final
decision before changing his mind.
><snip>
>
>> >[18] Anyone else find Sauron's reaction funny?
>>
>> No. Although I do find it amusing to think of Sauron noticing two
>> half-sized civilians have just waltzed into the ancient forges of his
>> power in the heart of his heavily-fortified land and addressing his
>> available guards and captains: "Just what am I paying you for?" It's
>> like Hitler walked into his bathroom and found a couple of English
>> school boys planting a bomb in the toilet. That sort of breech of
>> security just shouldn't happen.
>
>LOL! Did you see that Calvin and Hobbes inspired cartoon on someone's
>website (I forget who) where the Dark Lord is told by the WK that they
>have a girl with them. And Sauron orders the WK to destroy her?
I don't think I have, actually.
>> I think I have a rough idea of Frodo's and Gollum's suffering,
>> although I've never experienced any very exact analog.
>
>Now here is an interesting question.
>
>The reader can try to imagine based on his experiences, but does anyone
>think that Tolkien was drawing on his _own_ experiences? How does one
>write about pain and torment without having your own experiences to draw
>on? I suspect Tolkien would have hated anyone asking him this question,
>but maybe there are some answers.
I imagine the professor would have known the deflecting response to
that question: How could anyone not have experiences of pain and
torment to draw on? If one has lived long enough to develop to the
point of telling interesting stories, one has suffered. Not
necessarily to great depths, but that is where imagination takes over.
One feature of fiction is that it allows exploration of extremes, not
only beyond one's own experience, but beyond (almost?) anyone's
experience, whether for dramatic or humorous purposes.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Troels Forchhammer
AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:> <snip excellent summary, good job Christopher>
I wholeheartedly agree.
I've got quite a bit behind in these discussions -- I've been rather
busy and it does take up quite a bit of time to stay abreast of the CotW
discussions (currently I have about a hundred RABT/AFT posts that I
would like to read in detail and respond to), but some chapters just
/must/ receive some attention, and this is one of them.
>> Comments and thoughts
>> =====================
>>
>> A) Comments referenced to summary text
>>
>> [1] This can't be the very _first_ moment Sam considered that they
>> might not return alive? Or maybe it is? What do you think?
>
> I think it's quite possible that Sam really didn't understand what
> was fully involved and the possible consequences of the quest until
> now.
I believe that the thought has occurred to him before this, but he had,
until this point, been able to put it back; to convince himself that
though the situation might look dark, it was not completely hopeless.
Now the realisation is inescapable -- there is no way for him to pretend
that there is a way out
" 'Maybe,' said Sam; 'but where there's life there's hope,
as my Gaffer used to say; and need of vittles, as he
mostways used to add.'"
(LotR IV,7 'Journey to the Cross-roads')
As R. Dan Henry mentions, part of this is that the 'need of vittles'
will be unsatisfiable after reaching Mount Doom, and that hits back --
then there will be no life and no hope (I know, logically that inference
can't be reached from the Gaffer's adage, but Sam, nevertheless, would
still have reached it, I believe).
>> [2] What caused this hardening of Sam's will? The lembas or something
>> else?
" But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was
turned to a new strength. Sam's plain hobbit-face grew
stern, almost grim, as the will hardened in him, and he
felt through all his limbs a thrill, as if he was turning
into some creature of stone and steel that neither despair
nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue."
> I think this is the best example we'll ever see of that Hobbitesh
> toughness which Gandalf alluded to so long before. This must have
> been how the Hobbits behaved in the face of dire circumstances.
I wonder.
We know that Sam was 'inspired' by an outside source to utter that
invocation in LotR IV,10 'The Choices of Master Samwise' (letter #211),
and this may, in part at least, also be externally inspired.
On the other hand there is no doubt that this is Sam's hour. This is
where Frodo fails as a hero (anticipating a later question) and Sam
shines. In these Mordor chapters, Sam is the real hero, and Frodo the
noble and wise master that the hero has to get to his destination.
On the balance of things, I think that there might be a bit of both
involved -- Sam getting a bit of help to reach a state that it would
have taken him a bit longer to reach unaided. But I don't think the
lembas had anything to do with this: their effect appear to me to be
more long-term.
>> [3] Anyone want to go on a holiday to the Dark Tower? :-)
>
> Heh.
"And here we have the ruins of Barad-dûr. First built during the Second
Age, and rebuilt in the Third Age, the Dark Tower served as the main
base for the Dark Lord, Sauron. Notice the interesting use of gargoyles
in the fragments over on the left. This style was particular to Mordor
and . . ."
I wouldn't like to go there while it stood, though.
>> [4] Are these lights Gollum's eyes?
>
> Good question! I've often wondered this myself.
I can't see what else it could be. In particular at that time and place,
the only creature I can think of is Gollum. Not only is the light of his
eyes a long established 'pattern' or symbol of Gollum, but Sam does see
these 'pale lights like eyes', and yet no Orcs or worse came.
If it wasn't Gollum, then what? A dumb animal? That wouldn't fit the
mentioning in the book, IMO. Some other intelligent watcher not loyal
to Sauron? Not very likely at that place and time.
>> [5] There are many other descriptions of the Darkness that comes from
>> Mordor. How much of it is the fumes from Mount Doom, and how much of
>> it is these shadows woven by Sauron?
>
> Obviously there is both present. I guess it's little wonder that
> Mordor is the Land of Shadow.
I'm reminded of another of Morgoth's Ainu servants who was apparently
able to surround itself with this kind of almost-material shadow ;-)
How much of this is a darkening existing only in the mind of the
spectator, and how much has an actual physical existence?
The cover spreading from Mordor earlier to cause the shadow over Gondor
during the attack, and which is dispersed by the west wind that brought
Aragorn the faster to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was, IMO, the
fumes from Mount Doom, while the darkness of heart and mind that
affected the defenders of the city may well have been not only the
effect of the Nazgûl, but also of Sauron's shadows (if this power of the
Nazgûl is not an extension of the power of their master).
>> [6] What does Frodo mean when he says he "is almost in its power"?
I would say that it is a recognition of the influence the Ring has on
his mind -- the amount of control it holds over his thoughts.
To repeat a question that we discussed earlier (much earlier, in fact. I
believe it was during IV,3 'The Black Gate is Closed'): "Do you think he
still believes, here at this moment, that he truly can cast the Ring
into
the Fire?"
I think that he may, at this point, have begun to doubt, though he was
probably still determined to at least try -- his intention with going to
the cracks was still to attempt to destroy the Ring, but whether he
truly believed that it would be possible for him, I don't know.
>> At what point would Sam be forced to take the Ring from Frodo and
>> continue the quest?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean the point where it
would be best to take it, the point when Sam would attempt to take it or
the last point where he would be able to take it?
>> Probably only from his dead body.
I don't think that Sam would have even considered taking it by force
from a living Frodo, no. He does offer to carry it a couple of times,
but he doesn't pursue it when Frodo says no.
>> What if Frodo went mad or succumbed to the Ring?
I'm not sure that Sam would have tried even then, but it would probably
have been in vain even if he did try after Frodo had succumbed to the
Ring. Frodo was of a far greater stature than Gollum and would probably
have been able to command at least some of the lesser powers of the
Ring.
> Judging by Frodo behaves further on, I suspect that it would have to
> be death or severe injury.
Enough that Sam would realise that Frodo would be unable to continue the
quest and probably it would also require such severe injury that Frodo
would be unable to fight Sam for possession.
> I think Frodo has gained sufficient stature to be able to use the
> Ring's real powers (some may disagree on the nature confrontation
> between Frodo and Gollum at the foot of Mount Doom, of course).
Well, some of the minor powers and not necessarily consciously . . .
Putting on the Ring to become invisible is, of course, one way to use
the Ring's powers, but it does go far beyond that, as is shown already
be Galadriel's words to Frodo in II,7 'The Mirror of Galadriel':
"Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on
finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown
keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than
many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that
holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and
recognize the ring upon my finger?"
Already then Frodo's powers are increased by the Ring -- whether he is
drawing upon the powers of the Ring or is himself enlarged is not, IMO,
entirely clear. I think it likely that any use of the Ring's powers
would have to be of this sort until he claimed it for his own -- only by
doing that would he, I believe, be able to consciously and deliberately
invoke the Ring's powers (and even then he would not be able to do much,
as Isildur found out).
>> [7] What is this wheel of fire? Yes, I know it is the Ring, but it
>> seems to be a vision of the Ring. Is it related to the later
>> description of the Ring as "verily it seemed wrought of living fire"
>> just before Gollum falls into the Fire?
>
> I suppose, but I also think that it's very good imagery for the
> effect its having on Frodo, a burden and a threat, a terrifying
> symbol of terrible power.
Yes, I agree. The Wheel of Fire is a symbolic or metaphorical
representation of the Ring, or perhaps rather, of the power of the Ring:
here; it's power over Frodo, and later it's power over both Frodo and
Gollum.
<snip>
>> [9] Is this description of Sam's mind the clarity of mind of the
>> doomed man? The peace of the man who will be executed in the morning?
>
> Yes, I think this is the explanation. He's beyond the point of no
> return now. There's only way to go, and that's ahead.
>> [10] The final stages of the quest remind me of biblical scenes,
>> such as the temptation scenes in the desert. Are Sam's internal
>> debates and the thirst scenes meant to evoke such imagery?
>
> I suppose there's something of the feel of the Exodus, though on a
> much reduced time scale.
Yes. I don't think that they're exactly meant (by Tolkien) to evoke that
imagery, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out as a (probably
sub-conscious) source of inspiration.
Tolkien's attitude towards the Bible as the greatest story ever is clear
from /On Fairy Stories/, and furthermore there are the comparisons
between Galadriel and Mary, Lembas and the Eucharist that Tolkien speaks
about in letter #213:
"Another saw in waybread (lembas)= viaticum and the reference
to its feeding the will (vol. III, p. 213) and being more
potent when fasting, a derivation from the Eucharist. (That
is: far greater things may colour the mind in dealing with the
lesser things of a fairy-story.)"
[Letter #213, From a letter to Deborah Webster (25 October 1958)]
That is, he acknowledges the possibility of an inspiration, but denies
that it should be deliberate. I think the same might be the case here.
>> [11] OK. Who is doing this calling to Sam and Frodo? This injecting
>> of a sense of urgency? Trying to synchronise the Ring destruction
>> and the Battle of the Morannon. My guess is Gandalf himself.
>
> Gandalf seemed awfully busy in these final moments. I shy away from
> guessing at these scenes where there's the potential for outside
> intervention. If someone bent my arm, I'd bet it was the Valar
> themselves, seeing the Hobbits in such hard shape, giving them some
> strength and resolve for the final push.
I agree with that.
Even though we have seen Gandalf working from a distance to support
Frodo on Amon Hen, we also heard him explain how much that had fatigued
him ("Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought."
III,5 'The White Rider'). And, as you say, Gandalf was very busy at that
time.
Sometimes I get the feeling that we may be a little too reluctant to
postulate divine interference, and at other times I think we shouldn't
pull it out of the bag all the time :-/
Reading letters, it occasionally appears that Tolkien thought Eru
intervened quite often during the War of the Ring (after the
re-embodiment of Gandalf), but at other times it seems that he was quite
reluctant to posit that explanation.
I honestly don't know.
>> [12] I must apologise to Peter Jackson for doubting that he made up
>> that scene in the film where Frodo collapses under the influence of
>> the Eye.
It was, IMO, more than a bit overdone in the film, but you're right that
it wasn't entirely made up by Jackson and Boyens.
>> Pity they didn't keep the lighthouse beam pointing just to
>> the northwest
;-)
>> (Tolkien's use of northwards is strange - it seems there is a
>> large difference between gazing north and gazing northwards).
Look at it from the Hobbits' point of view. They are almost due west of
Barad-dûr, and see the 'flicker of a piercing eye' going from the tower
to their left -- in a generally northerly direction. The vision lasts
only for an instant, and there is no way that they could determine the
direction more accurately than 'northwards'; somewhere in the
northernmost quadrant of the compass.
>> [13] Dying embers of Frodo's heart and will? What is this about?
I have related this to Narya already -- it is perhaps even clearer in UT
where Círdan wishes to give Narya into nobler hand than his, "that may
wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage."
The motif of awaking a fire in the heart, of fire as a symbol of
personal strength (see e.g. Fëanor) is common in Tolkien, and that is
what happens here: Frodo's will has been nearly subdued by his burden;
by the breaking strain of his continuous battle with the Ring (e.g.
resisting 'the Ring's lure to power', letter #181). His will was, I
think, fully concentrated on the Ring, and he didn't care much about the
world around him -- being torpid to the real world. The attempt to
wrestle the Ring from him pulled him out of that state and awoke his
will to focus, for a while at least, on external factors.
>> Also, exactly when did Gollum realise that Sam and Frodo intend to
>> destroy the Ring. Why not attack them earlier?
That's a good question.
> I think I broached this one myself not so long ago. Gollum clearly
> knows enough Ringlore to know that the Ring would be destroyed if
> thrown into Sammath Naur. Yet wouldn't it have been just as bad for
> Gollum if Sauron had reclaimed it? As I said before, I think
> Gollum's intent all along was to betray Frodo and take the Ring, and
> I doubt he had any idea until he caught up with them at Mount Doom
> that Frodo's true intent might be to destroy the Ring.
He is definitely aware of their intention when he does catch up with
them ("He musstn't go that way. He mussn't hurt Preciouss").
I don't know when he realised this -- both when the possibility first
dawned on him, and when he became certain, but I think it is likely that
the suspicion had been growing in him at least since the Hobbits left
the Orc-road and steered directly for Mount Doom, but he may not have
been completely certain until they started to climb the mountain (what
else he may have believed, I cannot guess, but the idea would probably
be very difficult for him to grasp, just as it was impossible for
Sauron).
>> [14] Simple question. What is going on here with a talking wheel of
>> fire?
>>
>> :-)
>
> "The number you have dialed is not in service. Please hang up and
> try your call again."
LOL!
But I agree with what has been said elsewhere that it is Frodo who is
speaking. The 'Wheel of Fire', to me, signifies (as per above) the power
of the One Ring, and here it shows that Frodo is invoking that power.
I don't think it is deliberate -- Frodo is /not/ the master of the Ring,
but even possessing the Ring does give him some power over evil (as is
seen by the example of Sam and the Orc in the Tower of Cirith Ungol),
and a creature that is as wholly under the dominion of the Ring as is
Gollum will likely be even easier to dominate.
We should probably recall the other instances where Frodo has confronted
Gollum backing up himself with the threat of the Ring:
" 'No! not on it,' said Frodo, looking down at him with
stern pity. 'All you wish is to see it and touch it, if you
can, though you know it would drive you mad. Not on it.
Swear by it, if you will. For you know where it is. Yes,
you know, Sméagol. It is before you.'
For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown
and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord
who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a
little whining dog. Yet the two were in some way akin and
not alien: they could reach one another's minds. Gollum
raised himself and began pawing at Frodo, fawning at his
knees.
'Down! down! ' said Frodo. `Now speak your promise!'"
[LotR IV,1 'The Taming of Sméagol']
" 'I did not mean the danger that we all share,' said
Frodo. 'I mean a danger to yourself alone. You swore a
promise by what you call the Precious. Remember that! It
will hold you to it; but it will seek a way to twist it to
your own undoing. Already you are being twisted. You
revealed yourself to me just now, foolishly. Give it back
to Sméagol you said. Do not say that again! Do not let that
thought grow in you! You will never get it back. But the
desire of it may betray you to a bitter end. You will never
get it back. In the last need, Sméagol, I should put on the
Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I,
wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it
were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the
fire. And such would be my command. So have a care,
Sméagol!'"
[LotR IV,3 'The Black Gate is Closed']
As in the previous cases, I don't think that Frodo is consciously trying
to really invoke the powers of the Ring -- it is a threat he is making,
but somehow the Ring gets involved. Possibly it is all in the diseased
mind of Gollum: if he, deep down, believes that the Ring was behind this
step, his subconscious may even have inadvertently caused him to misstep
when he had touched Frodo.
I am not sure exactly what is going on -- I believe that it is Frodo who
is speaking, and that the power the Ring holds over the lives of these
three Hobbits is somehow involved; awoken, perhaps, more than invoked,
though I don't think Frodo intends this. Whether it is a power that
exists only in their minds, or if Frodo actually does (inadvertently)
awaken some power of the Ring, or if the Ring is taking up Frodo's curse
and amplifying it, I don't know.
>> [15] Is Frodo still in control here? At what point does he lose
>> control?
>
> I don't think Frodo loses control until he's in Sammath Naur.
I agree. And I think that this is strongly suggested in the letters:
" Frodo was in such a position: an apparently complete trap:
a person of greater native power could probably never have
resisted the Ring's lure to power so long; a person of less
power could not hope to resist it in the final decision."
[Letter #181, To Michael Straight [drafts] (probably January or February
1956)]
" I do not think that Frodo's was a moral failure. At the
last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum
- impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist,
certainly after long possession, months of increasing
torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what
he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of
Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object
of his quest could be achieved."
[Letter #246, From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) (September
1963)]
>> [16] Sam's mercy to Gollum. Easy or difficult? Important or not?
>
> I don't think Sam had the strength to do anything more to Gollum.
I think that Sam could have killed Gollum had he wanted to:
" Sam's hand wavered. His mind was hot with wrath and the
memory of evil. It would be just to slay this treacherous,
murderous creature, just and many times deserved; and also
it seemed the only safe thing to do. But deep in his heart
there was something that restrained him: he could not
strike this thing lying in the dust, forlorn, ruinous,
utterly wretched. He himself, though only for a little
while, had borne the Ring, and now dimly he guessed the
agony of Gollum's shrivelled mind and body, enslaved to
that Ring, unable to find peace or relief ever in life
again. But Sam had no words to express what he felt."
I don't think it was for lack of strength, neither of body, mind or
will, that Sam didn't kill Gollum. He was bent on doing it, but
something kept him from it -- "Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without
need."
> Obviously important (if Providence has any part in what happens).
Crucial, I would say.
> If Gollum were dead, then Sam would have been the only one left who
> could try to stop Frodo when he claimed the Ring. I simply cannot
> see Sam throwing Frodo into Sammath Naur.
Exactly.
>> [17] Did Frodo fail or not?
<snip>
> Frodo very clearly failed, and just as clearly (from Tolkien's
> comments in Letters) that was unavoidable. Frodo had got the Ring to
> Sammath Naur, but at that point the Ring was irresistable. I don't
> think anyone; Gandalf or Galadriel included, could have withstood it
> in those final moments.
Precisely.
And to take up on Christopher's invitation to speak about eucatastrophe,
this is indeed an example of a eucatastrophe -- "the sudden joyous
'turn'" -- "it is a sudden and miraculous grace: never to be counted on
to recur." Gollum's theft of the Ring and subsequent fall into the crack
fits the definition to a T: it is almost as if Tolkien uses this, and
several later events in the book, to make a practical definition of
'eucatastrophe' in it's various forms (this is possibly part of what
made the endings so difficult for Jackson et Al. -- they had several
eucatastrophes to cover, and each of them has that feeling of happy
ending; unfortunately they didn't tie them together very well, creating
that slightly ludicrous feeling that many have complained about).
>> [18] Anyone else find Sauron's reaction funny?
Funny in what way? As in 'strange', 'unexpected' or 'out of character'
or perhaps rather as in 'amusing' or 'hilarious'?
But I digress -- actually I don't really find it funny in either way.
> No, I find it sad in an odd sort of way, sort of how I find
> Denethor's last moments or how Saruman ended up as sad. These
> talented people, all three possessing such great gifts, and all those
> gifts wasted. Sauron is clearly the greatest dweller in Middle
> Earth, an Ainu that must have neared the Valar in power and
> knowledge, fooled by a cheap ruse and his own pride and inability to
> understand his enemy.
That's a good description, I think.
Perhaps the different reactions of the smoke columns (which I take to be
a visualisation of their fëar) after the deaths of Sauron and Saruman is
better discussed later, but for now let me just say that Sauron appears
unrepentant, and is thus not really pitiable.
>> [19] Ooh, look! Another "wave crashing on the land" image. Tolkien
>> liked using that dream he had. He used it for Numenor, and here we
>> have another similar set of images.
>
> I think it ties the whole together very nicely. The Lord of the
> Rings is the perfect end to the mythos.
And it is not the only 'repetition' of story-lines or imagery. Arwen and
Aragorn ties in nicely with the two Edain/Eldar marriages from the First
Age, Thranduil's caves in the Hobbit are reminiscent of Menegroth etc.
etc.
Not only does it tie things together very nicely, but it is also an
aspect that is seen in real mythologies: that certain elements are
repeated. It helps to establish that feeling of historicity, which
Tolkien strove to convey.
>> [20] Were the Nazgul destroyed by the eruption or destruction of the
>> Ring?
>
> Hard to say. The Witch King was brought down prior to the Ring's
> destruction, but that was by a bit of Numenorean wizardy. My hunch
> is that their ultimate destruction came with the Ring falling in the
> Fire.
There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down on
the Pelennor Fields.
I doubt that the volcanic eruption could have done more than that, and I
think that the image of the Nazgûl as flaming bolts is a piece of
artistic imagery building on the general destruction and the eruption of
Mount Doom:
[...], the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
withered, and went out.
The subject of simile has been thoroughly discussed here, I know, but
the use of 'as caught . . ." in the above does suggest that they weren't
really caught in the general eruption, but rather that their ending were
their own. Why they would burst into flame (if indeed they did), I don't
know, but possibly their end is a reflection of the ending of the Ring
in the fire, and, I would say, certainly caused by the end of the Ring,
as is also suggested by Gandalf in II,3 'The Ring Goes South', "The
power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him."
>> [21] Has Frodo really recovered? Does he change later and thoughts
>> prey on his mind, or are we (and Sam) deceived here into thinking
>> that we really have the old Frodo back?
>
> I think we are fooled. For the next little bit we are lead to
> believe that the only scar of his trials was the missing finger.
Tolkien deals at length with Frodo's situation after the destruction of
the Ring in letter #246.
" He appears at first to have had no sense of guilt (III
224-5)[1]; he was restored to sanity and peace. But then he
thought that he had given his life in sacrifice: he
expected to die very soon. But he did not, and one can
observe the disquiet growing in him."
[1] "'And there was Frodo, pale and worn, and yet himself
again ; and in his eyes there was peace now, neither strain
of will nor madness, nor any fear. .... 'The Quest is
achieved, and now all is over,' [said Frodo].'"
I would say that Frodo, at this particular point in the story, truly is
healed and at peace, but that it is, in part at least, the peace of a
dying man.
>> [22] How crucial is Gollum to the tale? Do you feel pity for Gollum?
>> Could you forgive someone who has just bitten off your finger? Can
>> you understand the torment it seems Frodo and Gollum were suffering
>> under? Just how evil was this Ring?
>
> Well Gollum clearly wasn't a terribly decent fellow even before he
> killed Deagol to get the Ring. I think about Gandalf's statement
> that what happened to Gollum might have happened to Hobbits that he
> knew. I always picture Lotho Sackville-Baggins, another stinker who
> I could well believe might have suffered the same fate as Smeagol.
Or Ted Sandyman, I agree.
"The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean
soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if
he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his
path."
[Letter #181, To Michael Straight [drafts] (probably January or February
1956)]
From this it would appear that in order to dominate someone as
completely (and/or perhaps 'as quickly') as the Ring did Sméagol, that
someone would have to be already amenable to the special corruption of
the Ring -- that 'lure to power' that seemed the most irresistible
allurement to corruption, which the Ring possessed.
It would also seem that to someone who was completely immune to that
lure -- who was without any desire for power -- the Ring held no power
(Tom Bombadil).
Frodo, in the end, failed -- in the final test he gave in to the
corrupting influence the Ring had on him, but for someone like Sméagol,
there was no test and no long struggle: he didn't 'give in', but was
overpowered immediately.
> Gollum is clearly pitiable. While he was a nasty little bastard
> before, he's twisted and warped. He's psychologically damaged. The
> Ring has destroyed the Hobbit, leaving behind this awful creature
> that literally lives to retake his Precious.
Yes, Gollum is pitiable. This is stressed by the repeated pity and mercy
he receives from Bilbo, Frodo and, in the end, by Sam (who could finally
begin to understand 'the agony of Gollum's shrivelled mind and body').
We are meant, I believe, to pity Gollum and to forgive him when Frodo
forgives him.
It is, perhaps, more interesting whether Sauron is pitiable?
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is t.forch(a)email.dk
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought
which they avoid.
- Soren Kierkegaard
R. Dan Henry
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
>reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down on
>the Pelennor Fields.
Except that it doesn't say anything about "rather than destroyed".
It's not clear this is anything but hedging on Tolkien's part; death
reduces one to impotence fairly effectively. The note is not about the
exact state of the Witch-King, but simply explaining why there would
be Eight rather than Nine Nazgul to confront Frodo at Mount Doom.
>I doubt that the volcanic eruption could have done more than that, and I
>think that the image of the Nazgűl as flaming bolts is a piece of
>artistic imagery building on the general destruction and the eruption of
>Mount Doom:
>
> [...], the Nazgűl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
> withered, and went out.
>
>The subject of simile has been thoroughly discussed here, I know, but
>the use of 'as caught . . ." in the above does suggest that they weren't
>really caught in the general eruption, but rather that their ending were
>their own.
I don't read that as simile at all. It doesn't as "as if", which would
indicate simile. It simply says "as", which here appear to used in the
sense of indicating a cause. "As I was late already, I ran the rest of
the way" does not involve simile.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
John W. Kennedy
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:08:55 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>>There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
>>reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down on
>>the Pelennor Fields.
>
>
> Except that it doesn't say anything about "rather than destroyed".
> It's not clear this is anything but hedging on Tolkien's part; death
> reduces one to impotence fairly effectively. The note is not about the
> exact state of the Witch-King, but simply explaining why there would
> be Eight rather than Nine Nazgul to confront Frodo at Mount Doom.
>
>
>>I doubt that the volcanic eruption could have done more than that, and I
>>artistic imagery building on the general destruction and the eruption of
>>Mount Doom:
>>
>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>> withered, and went out.
>>
>>The subject of simile has been thoroughly discussed here, I know, but
>>the use of 'as caught . . ." in the above does suggest that they weren't
>>really caught in the general eruption, but rather that their ending were
>>their own.
>
>
> I don't read that as simile at all. It doesn't as "as if", which would
> indicate simile. It simply says "as", which here appear to used in the
> sense of indicating a cause. "As I was late already, I ran the rest of
> the way" does not involve simile.
"As" where contemporary English normally uses "as if" is a normal, if
old-fashioned, idiom. "As" as a substitute for "[inasmuch] as [subject]
[copula]", is without any parallel that I can recall.
--
John W. Kennedy
Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!
http://pws.prserv.net/jwkennedy/Double%20Falshood/index.html
Troels Forchhammer
R. Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> enriched us with:
>
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:08:55 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
>> reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down
>> on the Pelennor Fields.
>
> Except that it doesn't say anything about "rather than destroyed".
As Steuard so aptly put it at one point -- language is about
connotations, not only denotations. By stating that the Witch-king was
reduced to impotence, Tolkien implicitly tells us that he is not reduced
any further than that: in particular that his Fëa hasn't left Arda.
Had the Witch-king died or been destroyed, Tolkien would have stated
that, but his statement is in accordance with the book (II,3 'The Ring
Goes South'), where Gandalf explains that, "The power of their master is
in them, and they stand or fall by him." Since Sauron has not yet
fallen, the Witch-king could not have been destroyed.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is t.forch(a)email.dk
If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the
shoulders of giants.
- Isaac Newton
Stan Brown
><Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>
>>There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
>>reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down on
>>the Pelennor Fields.
>
>Except that it doesn't say anything about "rather than destroyed".
>It's not clear this is anything but hedging on Tolkien's part; death
>reduces one to impotence fairly effectively. The note is not about the
>exact state of the Witch-King, but simply explaining why there would
>be Eight rather than Nine Nazgul to confront Frodo at Mount Doom.
I posted something similar. I didn't, and I believe Troels didn't,
intend "reduced to impotence rather than destroyed" as a quote; we
meant that Tolkien said "reduced to impotence" rather than
"destroyed".
Why would Tolkien hedge? If he meant the Witch-King was dead and
had been destroyed, why would he instead say "reduced to
impotence"? When you've killed an enemy, you don't say, "Well, I'm
glad he's reduced to impotence." Since Tolkien used the phrase
"reduced to impotence" when many ways of saying "killed" were
available, I think we were meant to believe he was still alive
(well, still undead) but unable to take any further part in events.
We think of Sauron after the downfall of Numenor and again after
the War of the Last Alliance -- still alive, but powerless.
The one thing we don't know is whether the W-K would have been able
to take shape again eventually if the One Ring had remained intact,
particularly if it was on Sauron's finger.
Stan Brown
>R. Dan Henry wrote:
>> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:08:55 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
>> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
>>>reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down on
>>>the Pelennor Fields.
>>
>>
>> Except that it doesn't say anything about "rather than destroyed".
>> It's not clear this is anything but hedging on Tolkien's part; death
>> reduces one to impotence fairly effectively. The note is not about the
>> exact state of the Witch-King, but simply explaining why there would
>> be Eight rather than Nine Nazgul to confront Frodo at Mount Doom.
>>
>>
>>>I doubt that the volcanic eruption could have done more than that, and I
>>>artistic imagery building on the general destruction and the eruption of
>>>Mount Doom:
>>>
>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>> withered, and went out.
>>>
>>>The subject of simile has been thoroughly discussed here, I know, but
>>>the use of 'as caught . . ." in the above does suggest that they weren't
>>>really caught in the general eruption, but rather that their ending were
>>>their own.
>>
>> I don't read that as simile at all. It doesn't as "as if", which would
>> indicate simile. It simply says "as", which here appear to used in the
>> sense of indicating a cause. "As I was late already, I ran the rest of
>> the way" does not involve simile.
>
>"As" where contemporary English normally uses "as if" is a normal, if
>old-fashioned, idiom. "As" as a substitute for "[inasmuch] as [subject]
>[copula]", is without any parallel that I can recall.
Am I the _only_ one who read "as" in the meaning of "when, at the
same time as"?
I started running as I saw the bus approach my stop.
He twisted and fell as the bullet caught him in the shoulder.
The "closed" sign went up as I pulled into the parking lot.
John W. Kennedy
> "John W. Kennedy" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>
>>R. Dan Henry wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:08:55 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
>>><Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>There's the footnote to letter #246 stating that the Witch-king was
>>>>reduced to impotence rather than destroyed when he was brought down on
>>>>the Pelennor Fields.
>>>
>>>
>>>Except that it doesn't say anything about "rather than destroyed".
>>>It's not clear this is anything but hedging on Tolkien's part; death
>>>reduces one to impotence fairly effectively. The note is not about the
>>>exact state of the Witch-King, but simply explaining why there would
>>>be Eight rather than Nine Nazgul to confront Frodo at Mount Doom.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I doubt that the volcanic eruption could have done more than that, and I
>>>>artistic imagery building on the general destruction and the eruption of
>>>>Mount Doom:
>>>>
>>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>>> withered, and went out.
>>>>
>>>>The subject of simile has been thoroughly discussed here, I know, but
>>>>the use of 'as caught . . ." in the above does suggest that they weren't
>>>>really caught in the general eruption, but rather that their ending were
>>>>their own.
>>>
>>>I don't read that as simile at all. It doesn't as "as if", which would
>>>indicate simile. It simply says "as", which here appear to used in the
>>>sense of indicating a cause. "As I was late already, I ran the rest of
>>>the way" does not involve simile.
>>
>>"As" where contemporary English normally uses "as if" is a normal, if
>>old-fashioned, idiom. "As" as a substitute for "[inasmuch] as [subject]
>>[copula]", is without any parallel that I can recall.
>
>
> Am I the _only_ one who read "as" in the meaning of "when, at the
> same time as"?
>
> I started running as I saw the bus approach my stop.
>
> He twisted and fell as the bullet caught him in the shoulder.
>
> The "closed" sign went up as I pulled into the parking lot.
But those aren't parallels to Tolkien's actual sentence. You would have
to substitute "I started running as approach my stop," or "He twisted
and fell as caught him in the shoulder," which are both nonsense.
To the best of my knowledge, taking the "as" as "as if" is the only
interpretation that is consistent with the actual practices of the
English language.
Unless it's a simple misprint, of course.
Stan Brown
>>>>> [...], the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
>>>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>>>> withered, and went out.
>>>>>
>>
>> same time as"?
>>
>> I started running as I saw the bus approach my stop.
>>
>> He twisted and fell as the bullet caught him in the shoulder.
>>
>> The "closed" sign went up as I pulled into the parking lot.
>
>But those aren't parallels to Tolkien's actual sentence. You would have
>to substitute "I started running as approach my stop," or "He twisted
>and fell as caught him in the shoulder," which are both nonsense.
"Caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky" is a participial phrase
modifying "they". You could rewrite the sentence with the same
structure except for that phrase as
"[...], the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
they crackled, withered, and went out."
Or if you want to make my sentences more flowery and still parallel
to Tolkien's, you could do something like "I started running as,
panicked at the thought of being late for work, I saw the bus
approach my stop."
True, Tolkien didn't put commas around that phrase; but he often
left out commas that today we consider essential, as in "A Short
Rest" in /The Hobbit/ where their clothes were mended "as well as
their bruises their tempers and their hopes."
Troels Forchhammer
Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
>
<snip>
Tolkien, actually, wrote <G>:
>>>>>> [...], the Nazgūl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
>>>>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>>>>> withered, and went out.
<snip>
> True, Tolkien didn't put commas around that phrase;
He did -- or at least there is a comma /before/ the 'as' in my copy . .
.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is t.forch(a)email.dk
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
- Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
Derek Broughton
> In message <3behtsF6...@individual.net>,
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
>>
>
> <snip>
>
> Tolkien, actually, wrote <G>:
>>>>>>> [...], the Nazgūl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
>>>>>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>>>>>> withered, and went out.
>
> <snip>
>
>> True, Tolkien didn't put commas around that phrase;
>
> He did -- or at least there is a comma /before/ the 'as' in my copy . .
And in the Foreword to "Book of Lost Tales I", which I finally started
reading last night, C. Tolkien mentions that his father was pretty week
with punctuation. A comma before "as" hardly counts, though - that's the
one around the parenthetical expression "shooting like flaming bolts".
There could be another around pair around "caught in the fiery ruin of hill
and sky", but that gets to be a bit much.
Which all reminds me to check out "Eats Shoots and Leaves" from the
library :-)
--
derek
Christopher Kreuzer
> In message <3behtsF6...@individual.net>,
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
>>
>
> <snip>
>
> Tolkien, actually, wrote <G>:
>>>>>>> [...], the Nazgūl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
>>>>>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>>>>>> withered, and went out.
>
> <snip>
>
>> True, Tolkien didn't put commas around that phrase;
>
> He did -- or at least there is a comma /before/ the 'as' in my copy .
I think Stan means the commas that are required to highlight the
parenthetical phrase go after the 'as' and before the 'they':
"...the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts, as, caught in the
fiery ruin of hill and sky, they crackled, withered, and went out."
So, removing the parenthetical phrase, we get:
"...the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts, as they crackled,
withered, and went out."
The reason for the use of the 'as' becomes clear when you try to remove
it from the original sentence:
"...the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts caught in the fiery
ruin of hill and sky. They crackled, withered, and went out."
Without the 'as', the word 'like' now appears to refer to an extended
'flaming bolts' description: "...like 'flaming bolts caught in the fiery
ruin'...". When in fact the "caught in the fiery ruin" bit refers to the
Nazgul, and not to the flaming bolts being used as a metaphor for the
Nazgul.
Checking the whole sentence:
"And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other
sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgul came, shooting like
flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they
crackled, withered, and went out."
We can mark out lots of parenthetical phrases and join the dots:
"And into the heart of the storm (with a cry that pierced all other
sounds => tearing the clouds asunder) the Nazgul came (shooting like
flaming bolts) as (caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky) [the Nazgul
(shooting like flaming bolts)] crackled, withered, and went out."
I read this as the Nazgul flew into the heart of the storm, emitting a
terrible cry, and were then caught in the "fiery ruin of hill and sky".
This caused them to appear like "flaming bolts" that "crackled, withered
and went out".
Stan Brown
>Tolkien, actually, wrote <G>:
>>>>>>> [...], the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as
>>>>>>> caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
>>>>>>> withered, and went out.
check the book before quoting it from the PP.)
Stan said:
>> True, Tolkien didn't put commas around that phrase;
>
>He did -- or at least there is a comma /before/ the 'as' in my copy . .
The comma before "as" doesn't relate to the phrase "caught in the
fiery ruin of hill and sky". That one should have commas, at least
according to US conventions.