CHAPTER OF THE WEEK LOTR BK2 CH1: MANY MEETINGS
Belba Grubb from Stock
To check out the other Chapter of the Week discussions or to sign up
to do a
chapter of your own, see http://parasha.maoltuile.org
"Time doesn't seem to pass here," says Bilbo, speaking of Rivendell,
"It just is." And here in Rivendell the action-driven part of the
story pauses as we begin to meet the unforgettable characters, old and
new, who will deepen the story and lift it from the realm of mere
adventure and fantasy into something very personable and special that,
as someone here has said in one of the threads, "burns like fire."
_________________________
CHAPTER SUMMARY:
Frodo wakes up in Rivendell and is surprised and delighted to see
Gandalf in the room. Gandalf explains that he didn't come to Hobbiton
as promised because he was held captive and that more details will be
available in a Council that will be held as soon as Frodo is well
enough. After much pestering, he also tells Frodo, who doesn't
remember, the outcome of the battle of the Ford. The Riders made
straight for Frodo. Glorfindel, Aragorn and the other hobbits jumped
out of the way to avoid being ridden down. Glorfindel knew that a
flood would be released as soon as the Riders attempted to cross the
river, and so he had the group kindle a fire; when the flood appeared
(washing away three Riders immediately) Glorfindel (who was "revealed
in his wrath"), Aragorn and the hobbits rushed out with flaming
brands. Their horses threw the remaining Riders into the water, and
all were washed away. Gandalf tells Frodo that the Riders didn't
perish, but that they are crippled and there is nothing more to fear
from them presently. He says that the others crossed the river after
the flood had passed and found Frodo lying face down on the ground,
his broken sword underneath him. They feared that he might be dead or
worse. The people of Rivendell met them carrying Frodo back to
Rivendell, where Elrond worked for four nights and three days to heal
him. He reached the brink of death but was brought back when Elrond
found the splinter of the Morgul knife that had been working its way
inward.
Frodo's arm is now coming back to life and is not cold. After he
hears the end of the business at the Ford he falls asleep again and
wakes up toward evening, feeling much better and ready for some food
and then probably some entertainment afterwards. He dresses in
clothes that have been laid out for him, and Sam comes in as he is
looking at himself in the mirror. Sam first checks Frodo's arm and is
delighted to find it warm again, as it "has felt so cold through the
long nights." Then he leads Frodo out to the porch where Merry,
Pippin and Gandalf are sitting, and soon they all all summoned to a
feast.
The hall is mostly filled with Elves, though there are some other folk
there. Elrond, Gandalf and Glorfindel are at the head of the main
table, and Elrond's "queenly" daughter Arwen is seated in the middle
of that table. Frodo is seated next to a dwarf at the same table, and
his friends, including Sam, who isn't allowed to wait on Frodo at this
time, are seated at one of the side tables close to the main table.
The food is delicious, and as the feast progresses Frodo falls into
conversation with the dwarf next to him, who turns out to be Glóin,
one of Bilbo's traveling companions. Glóin is curious what has
brought four hobbits to Rivendell, but Frodo brushes aside the
question; in his turn, Frodo is curious as to what has brought Glóin
to Rivendell, but Glóin says that all will be told when Elrond holds
his council. In the meantime, Glóin tells Frodo all about the changes
in the Lonely Mountain and in Dale. We also mentions some of the
former members of Thorin and Company, but Frodo notes that he doesn't
mention Balin, Óri and Óin. When asked about this, Glóin looks
unhappy and says that it is largely on account of Balin that he has
come to Rivendell. "But tonight let us speak of merrier things."
At the end of the feast everybody goes into the Hall of Fire for some
music, song and story-telling. There Frodo is reunited with Bilbo,
who tells Frodo that after he left Hobbiton he wandered a lot but
steered generally for Rivendell. After a rest he went on to Dale and
then returned to Rivendell, where he has been ever since. He asks to
see the Ring, and when Frodo brings it out to show him, Bilbo finally
understands just how evil the Ring is and apologizes to Frodo for
giving him this burden. Frodo puts away the Ring, and they are both
fine again and soon deep in a discussion of all the news of the Shire.
Strider shows up to help Bilbo with a song, and they go off into a
corner to work on it. Left to himself, Frodo falls under the
enchantment of the Elvish music and dozes off; he wakes up to hear
Bilbo chanting "Eärendil was a mariner," which the Elves like very
much. Then Bilbo and Frodo go off to talk quietly in his room, and as
they leave the Hall of Fire Frodo sees Aragorn standing next to the
Lady Arwen. He is clad in elven-mail and is wearing "a star on his
breast." Frodo hears the song "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" -- the "sweet
syllables of the elvish song [falling] like clear jewels of blended
word and melody." Then he and Bilbo go to Bilbo's room and talk
quietly of "the fair things they [have] seen in the world together, of
the Elves, of the stars, of trees, and the gentle fall of the bright
year in the woods" until Sam shows up to remind Frodo to go to bed.
_____________________
DISCUSSION POINTS:
It's very difficult to come up with a list of points for this chapter.
Certainly much has already been said on the newsgroups about Rivendell
and about all the characters mentioned here in this chapter, and I
don't want to repeat that; however, the primary difficulty is that
Rivendell and these characters are described in such a way that I can
see it perfectly and yet must realize that everyone else will have
their own Rivendell, Elrond, Hall of Fire, etc., that are probably
much different than my own vision, though certainly it and its
inhabitants are very "real" and we would all like to go there for a
while and meet them all.
I don't know how JRRT achieves that, though the conversation between
Gandalf and Frodo at the start of the chapter actually sounds much
more natural and wandering than some other conversations elsewhere in
the story. It sort of draws you in, perhaps, as you meet old friends
in a new setting ("Many Meetings") and go on to just spend a pleasant
evening in a very nice place. That's very difficult to set up into a
formal discussion list, but it's very worthwhile discussing as here
the story begins to turn on a hinge, so to speak, in a new "Chapter 1"
and will soon head south.
What do you find interesting about this chapter?
A few things that interested me:
-- For the first and only time in either "The Hobbit" or "The Lord of
the Rings," I think, we are privileged to have a look inside Gandalf's
head:
"Gandalf moved his chair to the bedside….'Still that must be
expected,' said Gandalf to himself."
Come to think of it, JRRT also lets us briefly see what the Nazgul are
thinking in "A Knife In The Dark":
"Let the little people blow! Sauron would deal with them
later."
Changing the viewpoint in this way, even briefly, and especially for
such major (and in the Nazgul's case, nasty) characters is always
risky for an author. Does it work here and in I.11?
-- Why did the Morgul-knife melt on its own at Weathertop, while its
remaining sliver had to be melted once it was dug out of Frodo's
shoulder?
-- Arwen's outfit is much more simple than Goldberry's, and yet is so
classy! But we don't know anything about her shoes, or the sound she
makes as she walks. (g)
-- How is it that Bilbo finally achieves his understanding of the
Ring's evilness?
-- Glóin's news brings up some interesting avenues of speculation
about the Beornings, the lands between the High Pass and the Lonely
Mountain and those who live there, and about exactly whom King Brand
is now ruling far south and east of Esgaroth. Come to think of it,
did Dale rule Esgaroth before the dragon came? I've always had the
impression that Esgaroth had an independent existence then, but that
the two towns coexisted to the great profit of both. Then the dragon
came, and afterwards Dale turned into a monarchy and took over
Esgaroth? Was that a good thing? We also have a pretty good idea of
the geography of the Lonely Mountain and environs from "The Hobbit"
and how it lent itself to battle. Would the rebuilt town of Dale, the
improved waterways and new roads that Glóin describes to Frodo have
helped attackers or defenders in that valley during the War of the
Ring? Would the new terraces and towers on the Mountain have been an
advantage or a disadvantage to the defenders of the Lonely Mountain
during the siege?
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the
kindly West. Some courage and some wisdom, blended in
measure. If more of us valued food and cheer and song above
hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
-- Thorin Oakenshield, to Bilbo
Christopher Kreuzer
> "It just is." And here in Rivendell the action-driven part of the
> story pauses as we begin to meet the unforgettable characters, old and
> new, who will deepen the story and lift it from the realm of mere
> adventure and fantasy into something very personable and special that,
> as someone here has said in one of the threads, "burns like fire."
Nice little introduction. Doesn't this remind you of Lorien?
Similar, but also very different.
> CHAPTER SUMMARY:
Nice summary.
> Glorfindel (who was "revealed in his wrath")
This is one of my favorite moments in the book:
"The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but
never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell
there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the
Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths,
for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both
worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.
[Frodo: 'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow
dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'] Yes, you saw him for a
moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn.
He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes."
Gandalf himself rating Glorfindel very highly.
> ... the others crossed the river after the flood had passed and
> found Frodo lying face down on the ground, his broken sword
> underneath him.
Doesn't this remind you of Elendil? I think the difference is that
Narsil actually broke as Elendil fell on it, but Frodo's blade was
shattered by the WK.
> Elrond found the splinter of the Morgul knife that had been
> working its way inward.
<shiver in horror>
> Elrond, Gandalf and Glorfindel are at the head of the main
> table, and Elrond's "queenly" daughter Arwen is seated in the
> middle of that table.
The descriptions of Gandalf, Glorfindel and Elrond are completely
overdone, but very interesting and enjoyable to read. Ditto Arwen. I've
always thought that these descriptions should be given to those who want
to dramatise LotR in whatever way. As examples of how a book can do
these things very differently.
> Frodo falls into
> conversation with the dwarf next to him, who turns out to be Glóin,
> one of Bilbo's traveling companions.
The point where Gloin looks at Frodo and smiles and says: "You were very
fond of Bilbo were you not?", sets up the bit where Elrond reunites him
with Bilbo and says: "Here is a friend you have long missed." The
relationship between Frodo and Bilbo is seen most clearly in this
chapter.
> He asks to
> see the Ring, and when Frodo brings it out to show him, Bilbo finally
> understands just how evil the Ring is and apologizes to Frodo for
> giving him this burden.
It is a bit more than that!
"a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and through it he found
himself eyeing a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony
groping hands. He felt a desire to strike him. The music and singing
round them seemed to falter, and a silence fell."
Another horrifying moment! Emphasizing the power of the One Ring in a
stronghold of the Elves under the influence of Elrond's Ring.
> Left to himself, Frodo falls under the
> enchantment of the Elvish music and dozes off
Another favorite passage:
"Almost it seemed that the words took shape, and visions of far lands
and things that he had never yet imagined opened out before him; and the
firelit hall became like a golden mist above seas of foam that sighed
upon the margins of the world."
Then there is an amazing description of how the swelling pattern of
music and words overwhelms Frodo and he sinks "under its shining pattern
into a deep realm of sleep."
A wonderful description of how a reader can be transported to realms
created in their imagination by the words of the author. This reminds me
of a similar passage in the House of Tom Bombadil where Frodo also falls
asleep.
Finally, the "seas of foam that sighed upon the margins of the world"
seems to be a direct reference to Tol Eressea and Aman. Compare this to
the bit from Bilbo's verses on Earendil: "ever-foaming billows roll; the
yellow gold and jewels wan".
> he wakes up to hear Bilbo chanting "Eärendil was a mariner"
This is one of my favorite poems in the book. I'm just sad I can't quote
it all! I always find that after reading it aloud it really draws me
into the drama and the story, and it really is a shock when it ends and
I mentally have to shake my head to clear out the rhythm and return to
the Hall of Fire at the point where I read "The chanting ceased". I
really have been voyaging with Earendil and have to reorientate myself
to remember where we are in the story!
It is also the longest poem outside of the Lays of Beleriand isn't it?
And the metre is meant to be very difficult to master. I recall reading
somewhere that someone did an exhaustive analysis of this poem and found
numerous layers of complexity and technical bits. I'd love to read that
essay, but have never found it. Can anyone help?
> as they leave the Hall of Fire Frodo sees Aragorn standing next to the
> Lady Arwen. He is clad in elven-mail and is wearing "a star on his
> breast."
I'd forgotten about this fine description of Aragorn.
We see another side to him: as an Elven prince.
> DISCUSSION POINTS:
> It sort of draws you in, perhaps, as you meet old friends
> in a new setting ("Many Meetings") and go on to just spend a pleasant
> evening in a very nice place.
I've always found it a nice contrast that we see the two sides of
Rivendell, the song and entertainments in this chapter, and the serious
side, the lore and history, in the next chapter (The Council of Elrond).
> What do you find interesting about this chapter?
A very interesting point is to draw comparisons between this chapter and
the future chapter 'Many Partings'. The two chapters are intricately
linked, and bookend the whole part of the main tale. The main comparison
I'll mention here is the differences between Bilbo in the two chapters,
but the changes in the other characters is also worth noting. But maybe
that should wait until that chapter comes round.
> A few things that interested me:
>
> -- For the first and only time in either "The Hobbit" or "The Lord of
> the Rings," I think, we are privileged to have a look inside Gandalf's
> head:
>
> "Gandalf moved his chair to the bedside..'Still that must be
> expected,' said Gandalf to himself."
"He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not
even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a
glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can."
Great stuff.
> Come to think of it, JRRT also lets us briefly see what the Nazgul are
> thinking in "A Knife In The Dark":
>
> "Let the little people blow! Sauron would deal with them
> later."
>
> Changing the viewpoint in this way, even briefly, and especially for
> such major (and in the Nazgul's case, nasty) characters is always
> risky for an author. Does it work here and in I.11?
I don't think it works well for the Nazgul, but it works very well for
Gandalf. We see a lot of the story from Frodo's viewpoint, so it is nice
to see this change of viewpoint to show both Frodo's physical
vulnerability, but also Gandalf's mental uncertainty. But I agree, this
device shouldn't be overused.
> -- How is it that Bilbo finally achieves his understanding of the
> Ring's evilness?
I think that the renewed temptation made him understand that the Ring
was provoking this reaction, and so the Ring was evil and it was not
just his reaction. The timing would be different for different people,
but Bilbo finally achieved his own personal understanding at this point.
Not much more can really be said.
Do you think Gollum or Frodo ever understood the evil of the Ring?
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Gandalf moved his chair to the bedside..'Still that must be
> expected,' said Gandalf to himself."
>
> "He is not half through yet,
Hang on!! This sounds like Gandalf knew Frodo would take the Ring. Or am
I reading too much into this? Maybe Gandalf is talking only about the
Morgul wound and that Frodo is only 'half' recovered from it.
> and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not
to evil, I
> think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes
to see that
> can."
Is this 'glass filled with a clear light' what Frodo ends up as in Aman,
or does he reach this stage (which is only visible in the Unseen world)
earlier. Maybe on the journey to or back from Mordor, or in the Shire?
Ooh. Scary. My signature file used the quote I was talking about.
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
"He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not
even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a
glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can." - Gandalf on
Frodo's fate (Many Meetings, FotR)
aelfwina
"Belba Grubb from Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message
news:f9uk70163sfrl8vj2...@4ax.com...
> Chapter Of The Week Lotr Bk2 Ch1: Many Meetings
>
> To check out the other Chapter of the Week discussions or to sign up
> to do a
> chapter of your own, see http://parasha.maoltuile.org
>
> "Time doesn't seem to pass here," says Bilbo, speaking of Rivendell,
> "It just is." And here in Rivendell the action-driven part of the
> story pauses as we begin to meet the unforgettable characters, old and
> new, who will deepen the story and lift it from the realm of mere
> adventure and fantasy into something very personable and special that,
> as someone here has said in one of the threads, "burns like fire."
> _________________________
>
> CHAPTER SUMMARY:
>
> Frodo wakes up in Rivendell and is surprised and delighted to see
> Gandalf in the room.
The first time I read this book ( at age 15 ) *I* was surprised and
delighted to see Frodo wake up! I had thought for sure he was a goner at
the end of the last chapter!
[ Snip rest of summary }
> DISCUSSION POINTS:
>
> It's very difficult to come up with a list of points for this chapter.
> Certainly much has already been said on the newsgroups about Rivendell
> and about all the characters mentioned here in this chapter, and I
> don't want to repeat that; however, the primary difficulty is that
> Rivendell and these characters are described in such a way that I can
> see it perfectly and yet must realize that everyone else will have
> their own Rivendell, Elrond, Hall of Fire, etc., that are probably
> much different than my own vision, though certainly it and its
> inhabitants are very "real" and we would all like to go there for a
> while and meet them all.
>
> I don't know how JRRT achieves that, though the conversation between
> Gandalf and Frodo at the start of the chapter actually sounds much
> more natural and wandering than some other conversations elsewhere in
> the story. It sort of draws you in, perhaps, as you meet old friends
> in a new setting ("Many Meetings") and go on to just spend a pleasant
> evening in a very nice place. That's very difficult to set up into a
> formal discussion list, but it's very worthwhile discussing as here
> the story begins to turn on a hinge, so to speak, in a new "Chapter 1"
> and will soon head south.
>
> What do you find interesting about this chapter?
We only get a brief glimpse of Merry and Pippin in this chapter, but brief
as it is, Pippin shows once more how resillient and irrepressable he is.
It's clear that he, at least, has been taxing Gandalf's patience. Surprise,
surprise. It makes me wonder what other "cheerful things" the wizard said,
and what Pippin had done that he needed "keeping in line". 8-)
The other thing I love is Bilbo's poem about Earindil--whenever I read it, I
"hear" it to the tune of "Errantry" that Donald Swann wrote for The Road
Goes Ever On.
I always am surprised that this chapter is really rather short and covers a
small amount of time. It "feels" much longer when I read it.
>
> A few things that interested me:
>
> -- For the first and only time in either "The Hobbit" or "The Lord of
> the Rings," I think, we are privileged to have a look inside Gandalf's
> head:
>
> "Gandalf moved his chair to the bedside..'Still that must be
> expected,' said Gandalf to himself."
I never realized it before, but you are right. The only other times we get
Gandalf's POV is when he is describing something that happened to him (e.g.
his captivity by Saruman; his fight with the Balrog ) But this is the only
bit of internal dialogue we have from him. Interesting, as we do get that
from the rest of the Fellowship at some time or other.
>
> Come to think of it, JRRT also lets us briefly see what the Nazgul are
> thinking in "A Knife In The Dark":
>
> "Let the little people blow! Sauron would deal with them
> later."
>
> Changing the viewpoint in this way, even briefly, and especially for
> such major (and in the Nazgul's case, nasty) characters is always
> risky for an author. Does it work here and in I.11?
It definitely works here. We see Gandalf's affection and respect for Frodo,
as well as his concern for his well-being.
I don't think I paid much attention to it with the Nazgul.
>
> -- Why did the Morgul-knife melt on its own at Weathertop, while its
> remaining sliver had to be melted once it was dug out of Frodo's
> shoulder?
Perhaps the melted sliver had some other type of spell on it? Whatever it
was that caused that particular sliver to break off and begin its work?
>
> -- Arwen's outfit is much more simple than Goldberry's, and yet is so
> classy! But we don't know anything about her shoes, or the sound she
> makes as she walks. (g)
>
> -- How is it that Bilbo finally achieves his understanding of the
> Ring's evilness?
"a shadow fell between them"--the shadow of lust for the Ring. I think
Bilbo was appalled at the strength of his reaction, and was able to realized
what the Ring had done
>
> -- Glóin's news brings up some interesting avenues of speculation
> about the Beornings, the lands between the High Pass and the Lonely
> Mountain and those who live there, and about exactly whom King Brand
> is now ruling far south and east of Esgaroth. Come to think of it,
> did Dale rule Esgaroth before the dragon came? I've always had the
> impression that Esgaroth had an independent existence then, but that
> the two towns coexisted to the great profit of both. Then the dragon
> came, and afterwards Dale turned into a monarchy and took over
> Esgaroth? Was that a good thing? We also have a pretty good idea of
> the geography of the Lonely Mountain and environs from "The Hobbit"
> and how it lent itself to battle. Would the rebuilt town of Dale, the
> improved waterways and new roads that Glóin describes to Frodo have
> helped attackers or defenders in that valley during the War of the
> Ring? Would the new terraces and towers on the Mountain have been an
> advantage or a disadvantage to the defenders of the Lonely Mountain
> during the siege?
I believe the changes that took place would have been beneficial to the
"good guys" or Gandalf would not have taken such pains to bring them about.
Shanahan
>> Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>> Chapter Of The Week Lotr Bk2 Ch1: Many Meetings
>> "Time doesn't seem to pass here," says Bilbo, speaking of Rivendell
<snip lovely intro to one of everyone's fave chapters, thanks Belba!>
> This is one of my favorite poems in the book. I'm just sad I can't
> quote it all! I always find that after reading it aloud it really
> draws me into the drama and the story, and it really is a shock when
> it ends and I mentally have to shake my head to clear out the rhythm
> and return to the Hall of Fire at the point where I read "The
> chanting ceased". I really have been voyaging with Earendil and have
> to reorientate myself to remember where we are in the story!
I always read the Earendil poem out loud. It begs to be read aloud, even
more than the other poems and songs. There's something about the meter,
and the way the rhyme scheme moves in and out of the line scheme, it's
like waves on the sea. (No doubt intentionally!) I've inadvertently
memorized the poem by reading it out this way.
I also love the bit afterward when Bilbo is discussing how the reading
went off, with Frodo. He's talking about how Aragorn helped him:
"Otherwise [than insisting Bilbo put in the green stone (the Elessar?)],
he obviously thought the whole thing rather above my head, and he said
that if I had the cheek to make verses about Earendil in the house of
Elrond, it was my affair." Hilarious. It is indeed incredibly cheeky,
even outrageous, for Bilbo to do this. What a hobbit!
- Ciaran S.
--------------------
Christopher Kreuzer
> I always read the Earendil poem out loud. It begs to be read aloud,
> even more than the other poems and songs. There's something about
> the meter, and the way the rhyme scheme moves in and out of the line
> scheme, it's like waves on the sea. (No doubt intentionally!) I've
> inadvertently memorized the poem by reading it out this way.
Agreed. It is not just the meter and rhythm, but also the imagery. I
know I said I wouldn't quote all of it, but I'm am going to quote my
favorite bits:
"from nether heats and burning waste / he turned in haste..."
"Through Evernight he back was borne / on black and roaring waves..."
"He saw the Mountain silent rise"
"He came unto the timeless halls / where shining fall the countless
years"
"on high above the mists he came, / a distant flame before the Sun"
> [Aragorn] obviously thought the whole thing rather above my
> head, and he said that if I had the cheek to make verses about
> Earendil in the house of Elrond, it was my affair." Hilarious. It
> is indeed incredibly cheeky, even outrageous, for Bilbo to do this.
> What a hobbit!
Indeed!
AC
<snip excellent synopsis>
> Changing the viewpoint in this way, even briefly, and especially for
> such major (and in the Nazgul's case, nasty) characters is always
> risky for an author. Does it work here and in I.11?
I never really noticed it before. I think the fact that I didn't notice it
suggests that it did indeed work. Generally when when I see a literary
mechanism go kaplooie, I see it.
> -- How is it that Bilbo finally achieves his understanding of the
> Ring's evilness?
He sees its effect upon himself and Frodo. That two people who love and
admire each other as much as Frodo and Bilbo could have a moment like that
is evidence enough that the Ring is an evil
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Glenn Holliday
>
Wow Belba, you're doing lots of work.
> And here in Rivendell the action-driven part of the
> story pauses as we begin to meet the unforgettable characters, old and
> new, who will deepen the story and lift it from the realm of mere
> adventure and fantasy into something very personable and special that,
> as someone here has said in one of the threads, "burns like fire."
Yes. This chapter is largely "atmosphere", with a little
character development thrown in. Every time I read it I notice
that it enchants me, even though there's very little action.
Tolkien does this very successfully here, more so than in
other places. For example, Pippin wandering around Minas Tirith
is structurally similar. But Tolkien likes Rivendell better,
and it shows.
> -- How is it that Bilbo finally achieves his understanding of the
> Ring's evilness?
I think because Bilbo recognized his own desire to take
the Ring. That is so out of character for him.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Glenn Holliday
>
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> > "Gandalf moved his chair to the bedside..'Still that must be
> > expected,' said Gandalf to himself."
> >
> > "He is not half through yet,
>
> Hang on!! This sounds like Gandalf knew Frodo would take the Ring. Or am
> I reading too much into this? Maybe Gandalf is talking only about the
> Morgul wound and that Frodo is only 'half' recovered from it.
I think Gandalf expected Frodo would take the Ring. In this
conversation, and later in the Council, it seems clear to me
that Gandalf believes Frodo will and should be the Ringbearer.
Yet Gandalf also doesn't want to put Frodo through that ordeal.
I interpret Gandalf restraining himself from pushing Frodo
into the choice to take the Ring.
It is less clear if Gandalf's knowledge is foreknowledge.
That may be part. I also think Gandalf was already convinced
by the events that have already happened that Frodo was
"meant" to have the Ring (as Gandalf said later). So it
would be logical for Gandalf to expect the role of
Ringbearer should stick with Frodo until the bigger quest
was accomplished.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Christopher Kreuzer
> I think Gandalf expected Frodo would take the Ring. In this
> conversation, and later in the Council, it seems clear to me
> that Gandalf believes Frodo will and should be the Ringbearer.
I think it is more Elrond encouraging Frodo at the Council, but shall we
leave that until the next chapter?
> Yet Gandalf also doesn't want to put Frodo through that ordeal.
> I interpret Gandalf restraining himself from pushing Frodo
> into the choice to take the Ring.
I would say that Gandalf is very impressed by Frodo's endurance and the
qualities he has showed so far. That is shown more in this chapter. And
in addition, trying to change Ringbearer would be problematic anyway...
This chapter might be a good point to talk about why Elrond left the
Ring on Frodo, and whether this was Elrond's temptation. Someone has put
the Ring on a nice new chain for Frodo.
> It is less clear if Gandalf's knowledge is foreknowledge.
> That may be part. I also think Gandalf was already convinced
> by the events that have already happened that Frodo was
> "meant" to have the Ring (as Gandalf said later). So it
> would be logical for Gandalf to expect the role of
> Ringbearer should stick with Frodo until the bigger quest
> was accomplished.
Oh. I needn't have bothered typing out the same thing. :-)
Dirk Thierbach
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> "Gandalf moved his chair to the bedside..'Still that must be
>> expected,' said Gandalf to himself."
>>
>> "He is not half through yet,
> Hang on!! This sounds like Gandalf knew Frodo would take the Ring. Or am
> I reading too much into this? Maybe Gandalf is talking only about the
> Morgul wound and that Frodo is only 'half' recovered from it.
That's how I have always understood it.
>> and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can
>> foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled
>> with a clear light for eyes to see that can."
> Is this 'glass filled with a clear light' what Frodo ends up as in Aman,
> or does he reach this stage (which is only visible in the Unseen world)
> earlier. Maybe on the journey to or back from Mordor, or in the Shire?
I understood this as a possibility that never happened: If the Morgul
knife still had a lingering effect, it might have turned Frodo
permanently invisible, or half invisible, like a "glass".
The "filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can" then would
mean that those who "live in both worlds" and therefore can see
on the "other plane" would be able to see the "essence" (or soul,
or whatever it is you see there) of Frodo as a clear light, similar
to the way Glorfindel looked to Frodo at the ford.
But Frodo remains solid, and never fades, for good or for bad.
- Dirk
Dirk Thierbach
> "Time doesn't seem to pass here," says Bilbo, speaking of Rivendell,
> "It just is."
I found it intriguing that also in Rivendell time seems to work
differently, like it does it Lorien. I think Tolkien uses here
a common fairy-tale theme.
> Left to himself, Frodo falls under the enchantment of the Elvish
> music and dozes off; he wakes up to hear Bilbo chanting "Eärendil
> was a mariner,"
I already knew the german translation of the LotR quite well when I
read this poem in english for the first time. It just blew me away.
The intricate rhyming (sometimes every second word seems to be matched
with another word) is just incredible. No translation can come
even close here.
But I was always puzzled about the first two lines: I am very unsure
how to pronounce "mariner", and I just cannot make it scan with
"Arvernien". I pronounce "Arvernien", like all elvish words, with
"flat" vowels, as in latin, and I split "ni" and "en". Is that wrong?
Is it meant to match at all, or are these two lines an exception?
How do you read it?
- Dirk
the softrat
wrote:
>
>But I was always puzzled about the first two lines: I am very unsure
>how to pronounce "mariner",
Per the scansion: 'ma-ri-ner', English 'a' as in American, 'path,
bath' (vielleicht eine Deutsche 'ä'.), accent on the 'ma'.
> and I just cannot make it scan with
>"Arvernien". I pronounce "Arvernien", like all elvish words, with
>"flat" vowels, as in latin, and I split "ni" and "en".
Accent on the 'ver'. It scans, but the rhyme is somewhat forced.
the softrat
"I feel like I'm beating my head against a dead horse."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
I once played poker with tarot cards. I got a full house and
four people died.
Dean Tiegs
> But I was always puzzled about the first two lines: I am very unsure
> how to pronounce "mariner",
It's stressed on the first syllable, which is the same as "mare". The
other two vowels are schwas. In Tolkien's accent, the final "r" is
silent.
> and I just cannot make it scan with "Arvernien". I pronounce
> "Arvernien", like all elvish words, with "flat" vowels, as in latin,
> and I split "ni" and "en". Is that wrong?
No, you have the correct pronunciation.
> Is it meant to match at all, or are these two lines an exception?
> How do you read it?
The two lines do not rhyme, but they do have the same rhythm, except
that Line 1 starts with two unstressed syllables, whereas the second
starts with only one. For me, the lines scan like this, with the
stressed syllables in caps:
e ä REN dil WAS a MA ri ner
that TAR ried IN ar VER ni en
--
Dean Tiegs, NE¼-20-52-25-W4
“Confortare et esto robustus”
http://telusplanet.net/public/dctiegs/
Henriette
> "from nether heats and burning waste / he turned in haste..."
>
> "Through Evernight he back was borne / on black and roaring waves..."
>
> "He saw the Mountain silent rise"
>
> "He came unto the timeless halls / where shining fall the countless
> years"
>
> "on high above the mists he came, / a distant flame before the Sun"
>
Like I said before: the best posts consist of a lot of quotes!
Also, I would like you to know that your CotW-Oath has been fulfilled.
You can now be at Peace;-)
Henriette
Henriette
> Frodo is seated next to a dwarf at the same table, and
> his friends, including Sam, who isn't allowed to wait on Frodo at this
> time, are seated at one of the side tables close to the main table.
Grubb, you are great at making summaries! I would like to add one
small point here though: Sam is not allowed to wait on Frodo, because
he "has been told that for this time he was a guest of honour". The
way I read it now, it looks as if he has been told off.
> What do you find interesting about this chapter?
The description of the beginning of the first meeting of Frodo and Sam
after Frodo's apparent recovery: "He ran to Frodo and took his left
hand, awkwardly and shyly. He stroked it gently and then he blushed
and turned hastily away".
Moving.
>
> -- Arwen's outfit is much more simple than Goldberry's, and yet is so
> classy! But we don't know anything about her shoes, or the sound she
> makes as she walks. (g)
I think JRRT, like Raven, had a great secret admiration for Goldberry.
Henriette
Henriette
> > The Grubb:
> > He asks to
> > see the Ring, and when Frodo brings it out to show him, Bilbo finally
> > understands just how evil the Ring is and apologizes to Frodo for
> > giving him this burden.
>
> It is a bit more than that!
I also felt it to be a bit more than that (so I won't snip quote: )
>
> "a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and through it he found
> himself eyeing a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony
> groping hands. He felt a desire to strike him. The music and singing
> round them seemed to falter, and a silence fell."
Henriette
Henriette
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> > Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> >> "Gandalf moved his chair to the bedside..'Still that must be
> >> expected,' said Gandalf to himself."
> >>
> >> "He is not half through yet,
>
> > Hang on!! This sounds like Gandalf knew Frodo would take the Ring. Or am
> > I reading too much into this? Maybe Gandalf is talking only about the
> > Morgul wound and that Frodo is only 'half' recovered from it.
>
> That's how I have always understood it.
So did I: not half through his process of recovery.
(snip)
Henriette
Christopher Kreuzer
> Also, I would like you to know that your CotW-Oath has been fulfilled.
> You can now be at Peace ;-)
Thanks! :-)
I had the crazy idea that I needed to post a response to every chapter,
even though I had fallen weeks behind. Now that I've done that, I can
take a new oath to participate week-by-week for the next year. I will
have to be completely ruthless and dump nearly all the other threads
though... :-(
<wanders off muttering something about a Council>
Stan Brown
>The point where Gloin looks at Frodo and smiles and says: "You were very
>fond of Bilbo were you not?", sets up the bit where Elrond reunites him
>with Bilbo and says: "Here is a friend you have long missed."
I had forgotten -- on first reading that remark of Gloin's, I
thought it meant Bilbo was dead.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Stan Brown
>But I was always puzzled about the first two lines: I am very unsure
>how to pronounce "mariner",
Rhymes with, and accented like, "married her".
> and I just cannot make it scan with
>"Arvernien".
E-a-REN-dil was a MAR-in-er
That TAR-ried in Ar-VER-ni-en
(Many years ago I had a record on which Tolkien read this poem
aloud. Could it have been /The Road Goes Ever On/? I'm pretty sure I
remember his accents correctly for the above.)
Raven
news:be50318e.04041...@posting.google.com...
> I think JRRT, like Raven, had a great secret admiration for Goldberry.
Secret?
Raafje.
Belba Grubb from Stock
>Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message news:<f9uk70163sfrl8vj2...@4ax.com>...
>
>> Frodo is seated next to a dwarf at the same table, and
>> his friends, including Sam, who isn't allowed to wait on Frodo at this
>> time, are seated at one of the side tables close to the main table.
>
>Grubb, you are great at making summaries! I would like to add one
>small point here though: Sam is not allowed to wait on Frodo, because
>he "has been told that for this time he was a guest of honour". The
>way I read it now, it looks as if he has been told off.
Right you are, Henriette -- thanks. It was very difficult to sum up
the triad of Bilbo, Frodo and the Ring, and I think I messed that up
some, too.
Hmmm...now that you mention that particular phrase, for the first time
it jumps out at me how much those few words raise the reader's esteem
for Sam here. More character development just slips on through without
being noticed. What a writer JRRT was!
>> What do you find interesting about this chapter?
>
>The description of the beginning of the first meeting of Frodo and Sam
>after Frodo's apparent recovery: "He ran to Frodo and took his left
>hand, awkwardly and shyly. He stroked it gently and then he blushed
>and turned hastily away".
>Moving.
Very much so -- as though Sam had forgotten for a moment that Frodo
was conscious now and now had to turn away until he could don his more
customary face. Again we learn more about Sam here....
>> -- Arwen's outfit is much more simple than Goldberry's, and yet is so
>> classy! But we don't know anything about her shoes, or the sound she
>> makes as she walks. (g)
>
>I think JRRT, like Raven, had a great secret admiration for Goldberry.
Ho! Tom Bombadil! Ring a ding dello!
Raven and the author best be wary of that fellow!
;^)
Belba Grubb from Stock
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
(snip)
>> CHAPTER SUMMARY:
>
>Nice summary.
Thanks, Christopher. :-)
>> Glorfindel (who was "revealed in his wrath")
>
>This is one of my favorite moments in the book:
>
>"The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but
>never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell
>there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the
>Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths,
>for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both
>worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.
>[Frodo: 'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow
>dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'] Yes, you saw him for a
>moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn.
>He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes."
>
>Gandalf himself rating Glorfindel very highly.
As did the author by placing him on Elrond's right, when the character
we would actually be seeing much more of and who would be later called
the Enemy of Sauron was actually seated on Elrond's left, a slightly
less socially prominent position though still at the head of the main
table.
I think JRRT is really pushing Glorfindel forward at every moment of
his brief appearance in the story to misdirect the reader into
thinking that he's the natural choice of a love interest for Arwen.
>> ... the others crossed the river after the flood had passed and
>> found Frodo lying face down on the ground, his broken sword
>> underneath him.
>
>Doesn't this remind you of Elendil? I think the difference is that
>Narsil actually broke as Elendil fell on it, but Frodo's blade was
>shattered by the WK.
Hey, had never thought of that before. Yes, it is a little
reminiscent of that.
>> Elrond, Gandalf and Glorfindel are at the head of the main
>> table, and Elrond's "queenly" daughter Arwen is seated in the
>> middle of that table.
>
>The descriptions of Gandalf, Glorfindel and Elrond are completely
>overdone, but very interesting and enjoyable to read. Ditto Arwen. I've
>always thought that these descriptions should be given to those who want
>to dramatise LotR in whatever way. As examples of how a book can do
>these things very differently.
And how readers can see things so differently. I remember, the first
few times reading it, I had been so curious about how Elrond looked
and wished that JRRT had given us more details. It was frustrating.
Of course, now I know exactly how he looked.
>> What do you find interesting about this chapter?
>
>A very interesting point is to draw comparisons between this chapter and
>the future chapter 'Many Partings'. The two chapters are intricately
>linked, and bookend the whole part of the main tale. The main comparison
>I'll mention here is the differences between Bilbo in the two chapters,
>but the changes in the other characters is also worth noting. But maybe
>that should wait until that chapter comes round.
I'll remember that until then -- it's an excellent point.
>> -- How is it that Bilbo finally achieves his understanding of the
>> Ring's evilness?
>
>I think that the renewed temptation made him understand that the Ring
>was provoking this reaction, and so the Ring was evil and it was not
>just his reaction. The timing would be different for different people,
>but Bilbo finally achieved his own personal understanding at this point.
>Not much more can really be said.
>
>Do you think Gollum or Frodo ever understood the evil of the Ring?
Yes, just as a moth understands the danger of a flame. But unlike
Bilbo, they had never been able to put the thing down and walk away
from it before.
Barb
Belba Grubb from Stock
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not
>to evil, I
>> think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes
>to see that
>> can."
>
>Is this 'glass filled with a clear light' what Frodo ends up as in Aman,
>or does he reach this stage (which is only visible in the Unseen world)
>earlier. Maybe on the journey to or back from Mordor, or in the Shire?
I've always had a little problem with this. Frodo wasn't really
transparent on the journey or back in the Shire -- he actually seemed
quite closed in and darkened by great grief. Perhaps as you say, this
was what he ended up like in Aman.
Barb
Belba Grubb from Stock
wrote:
>> CHAPTER SUMMARY:
>>
>> Frodo wakes up in Rivendell and is surprised and delighted to see
>> Gandalf in the room.
>
>The first time I read this book ( at age 15 ) *I* was surprised and
>delighted to see Frodo wake up! I had thought for sure he was a goner at
>the end of the last chapter!
Yes, me too (age 17). :-) And I like the way JRRT draws the contrast
between the round ceiling of Bag End and the flat ceiling of
Rivendell, which looks strange to Frodo. I've always felt a little
wonder at flat ceilings ever since (g).
>> What do you find interesting about this chapter?
>
>We only get a brief glimpse of Merry and Pippin in this chapter, but brief
>as it is, Pippin shows once more how resillient and irrepressable he is.
>It's clear that he, at least, has been taxing Gandalf's patience. Surprise,
>surprise. It makes me wonder what other "cheerful things" the wizard said,
>and what Pippin had done that he needed "keeping in line". 8-)
Rivendell sure had an intoxicating effect on the young Took. This
sets his character up for the eventual defiance of "Master Elrond,"
too.
>The other thing I love is Bilbo's poem about Earindil--whenever I read it, I
>"hear" it to the tune of "Errantry" that Donald Swann wrote for The Road
>Goes Ever On.
No, actually JRRT wrote "Errantry." I've read that he wrote it early,
in the 1920s or early 1930s, presented it to The Inklings and then
forgot about it. However, somebody who heard it memorized it and
passed it on to someone else, who passed it on to someone else and so
on, and so on, until JRRT himself received two separate inquiries
about the poem, one of them coming from a source in Washington, D.C.,
who only knew that it had originated somewhere in English
universities. He was delighted by the oral tradition that had
developed, of course. I think it eventually was included in "The
Adventures of Tom Bombadil." I know I'd read it before I read
"Earendil Was A Mariner," and that's only because I always skipped
that poem when reading "The Lord of the Rings." I read "Adventures"
later. Closet confession: I ignored the poems for many ears, and
missed so much! When I did read it, "Earendil Was a Mariner"
immediately became my favorite poem of the book (except for the
fragments given of the Rohan songs about the battle of the Pelennor
Fields), and at once I heard the same rhythm to it that was in
"Errantry" and so recognized the kinship between the two.
A general question for everybody: Um, I'm new here and don't know too
much about it all, but feel I should ask first if it's considered a
capital crime to post a link to a M. Martinez article about this?
>> We also have a pretty good idea of
>> the geography of the Lonely Mountain and environs from "The Hobbit"
>> and how it lent itself to battle. Would the rebuilt town of Dale, the
>> improved waterways and new roads that Glóin describes to Frodo have
>> helped attackers or defenders in that valley during the War of the
>> Ring? Would the new terraces and towers on the Mountain have been an
>> advantage or a disadvantage to the defenders of the Lonely Mountain
>> during the siege?
>
>I believe the changes that took place would have been beneficial to the
>"good guys" or Gandalf would not have taken such pains to bring them about.
Well, wasn't he in it just to get rid of Smaug?
I think the towers on the mountain, and the terraces, would have
allowed the dwarves of Erebor greater warning time of an attack, and
if properly manned, would have prevented attackers from coming over
the flanks into the valley of Dale and the front gate as they did in
the Battle of Five Armies. But presumably these towers and terraces
would have had at least some openings into the mountain, and that
would have made it extremely hard to defend the Mountain against a
seige.
The rebuilt city of Dale would have prevented the sort of charge we
see in "The Hobbit," and a determined 'urban warfare' defense there
could have slowed even an overwhelmingly large force enough to allow
many people to escape into the Mountain.
Sigh -- makes me wish JRRT had written about that, too.
Barb
Belba Grubb from Stock
wrote:
>Wow Belba, you're doing lots of work.
Labor of love....
>> And here in Rivendell the action-driven part of the
>> story pauses as we begin to meet the unforgettable characters, old and
>> new, who will deepen the story and lift it from the realm of mere
>> adventure and fantasy into something very personable and special that,
>> as someone here has said in one of the threads, "burns like fire."
>
>Yes. This chapter is largely "atmosphere", with a little
>character development thrown in. Every time I read it I notice
>that it enchants me, even though there's very little action.
>Tolkien does this very successfully here, more so than in
>other places. For example, Pippin wandering around Minas Tirith
>is structurally similar. But Tolkien likes Rivendell better,
>and it shows.
I'm trying really hard just to write one amateur short story and know
quite well the temptation to have a strong action line and "one thing
leads to another and to another and to another..." and the risk of
ruining the story by filling it up too much and so am just in awe that
a great writer like JRRT is able to insert such a pause in the action
with a chapter like this and make it work so well.
>
>> -- How is it that Bilbo finally achieves his understanding of the
>> Ring's evilness?
>
>I think because Bilbo recognized his own desire to take
>the Ring. That is so out of character for him.
Yes, back at Bag End he was in denial over it. In Rivendell, it seems
perhaps that he'd grown beyond that to see things as they were.
Barb
Belba Grubb from Stock
<pog...@redsuspenders.com> wrote:
>>Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>>> Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>>> Chapter Of The Week Lotr Bk2 Ch1: Many Meetings
>>> "Time doesn't seem to pass here," says Bilbo, speaking of Rivendell
>
><snip lovely intro to one of everyone's fave chapters, thanks Belba!>
You're welcome, Shanahan!
>I also love the bit afterward when Bilbo is discussing how the reading
>went off, with Frodo. He's talking about how Aragorn helped him:
>"Otherwise [than insisting Bilbo put in the green stone (the Elessar?)],
>he obviously thought the whole thing rather above my head, and he said
>that if I had the cheek to make verses about Earendil in the house of
>Elrond, it was my affair." Hilarious. It is indeed incredibly cheeky,
>even outrageous, for Bilbo to do this. What a hobbit!
Yes! What a cheeky thing for the writer to do, too, to insert 'the
hobbit' back into his new story in such a bold fashion. Didn't he
know that there was supposed to be this big gap between the
"children's story" of 'The Hobbit' and the "adult fairy tale" of 'The
Lord of the Rings'? Of course, he did know that. Is that why he made
Bilbo such a strong character at Rivendell, with such an endearing,
cranky voice of his own, I wonder.
Barb
aelfwina
Sorry. I was not clear enough. The *tune* is what D. Swann wrote. 8-) I
know JRRT wrote "Errantry". I was referring to the *music*. LOL
Barbara
!
Igenlode Wordsmith
> Chapter Of The Week Lotr Bk2 Ch1: Many Meetings
[snip]
My thoughts (sorry, don't seem to overlap with yours anywhere):
"The ceiling looked strange: it was flat." A hobbit's-eye view of
internal architecture - and one I never noticed before! But of course,
the ceilings in Bag End would presumably have been round tunnel-roofs...
When Gandalf praises Frodo for the "strength" he showed in the Barrow,
is he referring to his striking a blow against the Barrow-wight, or (as
seems equally plausible from the context) to his resisting, in this case,
the temptation to put on the Ring?
What does Gandalf have in mind when he says that despite the fact his
enforced absence "nearly proved our ruin", it may have been better so?
Does he mean that, not travelling with the others, he was able
inadvertently to act as a decoy and draw off the Riders? Is he
referring to the hobbits' new relationship with Strider, or simply the
amount of toughening and growing-up Frodo has had to do? It's a
characteristically gnomic utterance, but not one that with hindsight
seems to make a lot of sense.
I was interested to note that Frodo apparently doesn't consider Gandalf
to be himself one of 'the Big People', that is, not human. If he doesn't
think he is human, what *does* he think he is? We the readers know that
Tolkien eventually decided that the wizard was some kind of demi-god,
which I have to say strikes me as less than necessary to the story (yes,
I know, neither a Maia or a Vala is really a god...), but the hobbits
presumably weren't supposed to be aware of this.
Or am I reading too much into "he reminds me often of you. I didn't
know that any of the Big People were like that", and is it simply the
usual conversational trick of making generalisations about a group (e.g.
'women', 'Londoners', 'today's youth') while tacitly excluding the
individual you are actually talking to? :-)
We are told that "Elrond is a master of healing"; yet it takes him
three days to effect the same cure that Aragorn, later, is to perform
as an instantaneous miracle in the Houses of Healing. Is this because
Aragorn grows greatly in power as he approaches his throne (he achieves
little with /athelas/ on Frodo's wound here), or is it just that the
physical presence of a Morgul-knife is far more deadly than the Black
Breath alone?
Is "the Elven-wise" a literal translation of 'Noldor' ('the Gnomes',
i.e. those who know) or is it simply a formation like 'Elven-latin' for
Quenya, referring indiscriminately to all the High-elves?
When Frodo says "now we are safe", why does this elicit a sidelong
glance from Gandalf? The implication seems to be that if Frodo had not
already shut his eyes, he might have seen something in Gandalf's
expression - but what is so significant about this remark?
I like the little comic touch of Frodo struggling on a pile of cushions
to bring him up to table-height. The Dwarf, apparently, doesn't have
that problem!
"a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and through it he found
himself eyeing a little wrinkled creature": adaptations seem to assume
that the mere sight of the Ring turns Bilbo into a sort of proto-Gollum.
But reading this again it occurs to me to wonder whether the fault here
is in Bilbo, or in Frodo's jealous perception, as it will be later in
the Tower of Cirith Ungol.
Does Bilbo really have a greedy, deforming desire for the Ring? Or is it
that Frodo is already afraid to let go of it?
Do we ever find out what the news is that the sons of Elrond bring back
from the Wild, that kept Aragorn from the feast?
"Near [Elrond] sat the Lady Arwen. To his surprise Frodo saw that
Aragorn stood beside her": am I right in thinking that this is the
first time, not only in this chapter but in the whole novel, that the
character is referred to as 'Aragorn' rather than 'Strider' in the
narration? And (glancing a few pages ahead) is "and in a corner alone
Strider was sitting", in the opening pages of 'The Council of Elrond'
before Aragorn's true ancestry is revealed, the last time he is referred
to as 'Strider' at all?
If so, the change in perception is very sudden...
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
* Usenet: Warning, may contain Nuts *
Christopher Kreuzer
> When Frodo says "now we are safe", why does this elicit a sidelong
> glance from Gandalf? The implication seems to be that if Frodo had not
> already shut his eyes, he might have seen something in Gandalf's
> expression - but what is so significant about this remark?
This point you made jumped out at me. I'd missed this, and it seems to
be a clear reference to Frodo saying that both he and the Ring are safe.
Or at least that seems to be what Gandalf fears, hence the sidelong
glance. Is this a first step along the road to calling the Ring 'My
Precious"?!
Henriette
> Ho! Tom Bombadil! Ring a ding dello!
> Raven and the author best be wary of that fellow!
>
> ;^)
A noteworthy moment: The Grubb is turning slowly into a Poet!
Henriette
Henriette
EntHierre
Henriette
> I had the crazy idea that I needed to post a response to every chapter,
> even though I had fallen weeks behind. Now that I've done that, I can
> take a new oath to participate week-by-week for the next year. I will
> have to be completely ruthless and dump nearly all the other threads
> though... :-(
:-) That is one strategy for survival in AFT. One week it happened
that I had to refer to the strategy of just skipping the newest
chapter thread.
>
> <wanders off muttering something about a Council>
>
Yes. Our expectancies are high!
Henriette
Een Wilde Ier
> On 12 Apr 2004 Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:
>
>
>>Chapter Of The Week Lotr Bk2 Ch1: Many Meetings
>
> [snip]
>
> My thoughts (sorry, don't seem to overlap with yours anywhere):
>
> "The ceiling looked strange: it was flat." A hobbit's-eye view of
> internal architecture - and one I never noticed before! But of course,
> the ceilings in Bag End would presumably have been round tunnel-roofs...
>
>
> When Gandalf praises Frodo for the "strength" he showed in the Barrow,
> is he referring to his striking a blow against the Barrow-wight, or (as
> seems equally plausible from the context) to his resisting, in this case,
> the temptation to put on the Ring?
The latter, I think. Tolkien preferred the 'Faramir' strength to the
'Boromir' one.
<snip>
> When Frodo says "now we are safe", why does this elicit a sidelong
> glance from Gandalf? The implication seems to be that if Frodo had not
> already shut his eyes, he might have seen something in Gandalf's
> expression - but what is so significant about this remark?
As others have said, it may be the ambiguous use of the term "we".
<snip>
> "a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and through it he found
> himself eyeing a little wrinkled creature": adaptations seem to assume
> that the mere sight of the Ring turns Bilbo into a sort of proto-Gollum.
> But reading this again it occurs to me to wonder whether the fault here
> is in Bilbo, or in Frodo's jealous perception, as it will be later in
> the Tower of Cirith Ungol.
>
> Does Bilbo really have a greedy, deforming desire for the Ring? Or is it
> that Frodo is already afraid to let go of it?
I think it is the Ring already beginning to exert influence on Frodo.
Pete Gray
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>What does Gandalf have in mind when he says that despite the fact his
>enforced absence "nearly proved our ruin", it may have been better so?
>Does he mean that, not travelling with the others, he was able
>inadvertently to act as a decoy and draw off the Riders? Is he
>referring to the hobbits' new relationship with Strider, or simply the
>amount of toughening and growing-up Frodo has had to do? It's a
>characteristically gnomic utterance, but not one that with hindsight
>seems to make a lot of sense.
>
Perhaps also that his 'enforced absence' revealed the treachery of
Saruman, whom they would otherwise still have trusted?
--
Pete Gray
while ($cat!="home"){$mice=="play";}
Raven
news:nft0801srsqaqrqni...@4ax.com...
It is, or at least was, possible for a man to admire a woman for both
beauty and other things without planning to seduce her into bed. A man with
an admirable wife would be pleased that she had admirerers, so long as they
did not seek to usurp his place. So call me old-fashioned. The author
certainly was.
Hrafn.
Raven
news:be50318e.04041...@posting.google.com...
> "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message
news:<XkYfc.3732$lh2....@news.get2net.dk>...
> > "Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> > news:be50318e.04041...@posting.google.com...
> > > I think JRRT, like Raven, had a great secret admiration for Goldberry.
> > Secret?
> 'Safe' then.
That's more accurate, since she is a fictitional character.
Raafje.
TeaLady (Mari C.)
> We are told that "Elrond is a master of healing"; yet it
> takes him three days to effect the same cure that Aragorn,
> later, is to perform as an instantaneous miracle in the
> Houses of Healing. Is this because Aragorn grows greatly in
> power as he approaches his throne (he achieves little with
> /athelas/ on Frodo's wound here), or is it just that the
> physical presence of a Morgul-knife is far more deadly than
> the Black Breath alone?
>
The piece of the Morgul-knife had to be the key - the Black
Breath is formidable enough, but with a physical link to the
wraith-realm (the piece of the blade) it would be even more
debilitating.
I always thought of it as the difference between being exposed
to radiation and having a bit of radioactive stuff inside you -
you could recover from the exposure, with proper treatment (to a
certain point, of course), but the continued re-exposure from
having it inside you would make all the cure in the world fail
(not so far-fetched - think of all the iradium (spelling ?
proper compound ?) painted watch-faces from the not so distant
past - big difference in wearing the watch and wearing, or
ingesting, the pretty glowing "paint").
--
mc
TeaLady (Mari C.)
in news:2004041708530...@gacracker.org:
> When Frodo says "now we are safe", why does this elicit a
> sidelong glance from Gandalf? The implication seems to be
> that if Frodo had not already shut his eyes, he might have
> seen something in Gandalf's expression - but what is so
> significant about this remark?
>
>
I always took the passage to mean that Gandalf knows the
journey is far from over - and anyone who knows how much more
reading there is left to do knows this also - but Frodo is
still fairly innocent of the evils of the Ring and the trails
of the quest to come. Frodo thinks his part of the journey is
over, and that the part of the Hobbits in this adventure has
ended. Also, the elves are, to Frodo, at least, magical and
strong and wise, and will surely be able to take this Ring and
set matters to rights.
Had he seen the look in Gandalf's eyes then he might have had
a few doubts as to the safety of them all, but maybe not. I
don't think Frodo knew exactly what they all were up against,
and in for, until close to the end of the Council.
--
mc
TeaLady (Mari C.)
in news:2004041708530...@gacracker.org:
> "a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and through it
> he found himself eyeing a little wrinkled creature":
> adaptations seem to assume that the mere sight of the Ring
> turns Bilbo into a sort of proto-Gollum. But reading this
> again it occurs to me to wonder whether the fault here is in
> Bilbo, or in Frodo's jealous perception, as it will be later
> in the Tower of Cirith Ungol.
>
> Does Bilbo really have a greedy, deforming desire for the
> Ring? Or is it that Frodo is already afraid to let go of it?
>
I always thought it was more Frodo's perception of Bilbo. And
that Bilbo could see, or sense this, and that is what made him
see, finally, how evil the Ring truly was. Bilbo, of course,
would feel the desire to have the Ring again; that was its
power. But the visual Frodo sees, in my thinking, was the Ring
speaking to Frodo - corrupting his vision, causing him to be
paranoid and frightful of others who might claim the Ring.
It won't be the last time Frodo's perception of others is
altered, either. Just the most visually descriptive of the
corruptive powers of the Ring.
--
mc
Kevin
> Igenlode Wordsmith <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>> When Frodo says "now we are safe", why does this elicit a sidelong
>> glance from Gandalf? The implication seems to be that if Frodo had not
> This point you made jumped out at me. I'd missed this, and it seems to
> be a clear reference to Frodo saying that both he and the Ring are safe.
> Or at least that seems to be what Gandalf fears, hence the sidelong
> glance. Is this a first step along the road to calling the Ring 'My
> Precious"?!
Yes, that's what I always assumed. Gollum almost always says "we"
rather than "I." So I think Gandalf feared that Frodo was beginning to
lapse into Gollum-talk.
Kevin
Christopher Kreuzer
[comparing Morgul-blade effect to radioactivity]
> (not so far-fetched - think of all the iradium (spelling ?
> proper compound ?) painted watch-faces from the not so distant
> past - big difference in wearing the watch and wearing, or
> ingesting, the pretty glowing "paint").
Iridium-192 (Ir-192). Not sure if it was used in watches in the past. I
found a site giving uses of radioisotopes, but it is 1.5 years
out-of-date. It says that tritium is used for luminous watch dials and
paints.
http://www.nsc.org/issues/rad/isotopes.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactivity
Christopher Kreuzer
> in news:2004041708530...@gacracker.org:
>
>> When Frodo says "now we are safe", why does this elicit a
>> sidelong glance from Gandalf? The implication seems to be
>> that if Frodo had not already shut his eyes, he might have
>> seen something in Gandalf's expression - but what is so
>> significant about this remark?
> I always took the passage to mean that Gandalf knows the
> journey is far from over - and anyone who knows how much more
> reading there is left to do knows this also
This would be, I guess, the 'obvious' meaning, as seen by the first-time
reader. The 'Gollum-speech' interpretation is a hidden meaning, that is
probably more apparant to a re-reader after reading the Gollum chapters.
> but Frodo is
> still fairly innocent of the evils of the Ring and the trails
> of the quest to come. Frodo thinks his part of the journey is
> over, and that the part of the Hobbits in this adventure has
> ended. Also, the elves are, to Frodo, at least, magical and
> strong and wise, and will surely be able to take this Ring and
> set matters to rights.
>
> Had he seen the look in Gandalf's eyes then he might have had
> a few doubts as to the safety of them all, but maybe not. I
> don't think Frodo knew exactly what they all were up against,
> and in for, until close to the end of the Council.
Ooh. Thanks for this great point!
<cuts and pastes idea into next chapter discussion>
Taemon
> This would be, I guess, the 'obvious' meaning, as seen by
> the first-time reader. The 'Gollum-speech' interpretation
> is a hidden meaning, that is probably more apparant to a
> re-reader after reading the Gollum chapters.
I don't agree. I think it would have been very strange for Frodo
at this point to have said "Now I am safe". He means himself, and
Sam and the others or maybe even the whole of Middle-Earth. Of
course they aren't safe, and Gandalf knows.
T.
Christopher Kreuzer
OK then, maybe a misinterpretation by re-readers too quick to pounce on
every little thing and read deep meanings into those comments? I am
still puzzled by the fact that Gandalf "looked _quickly_ at Frodo" (my
emphasis) after Frodo made that comment. But given the context, Frodo
plainly did mean that he and his companions were safe.
Maybe I can take a fall-back position that _Gandalf_ is over-reacting to
Frodo's comments. Frodo comment was, I now agree, quite innocent.
Gandalf, however, may have been momentarily worried. He was surely
looking closely for signs that Frodo was truly recovered from the Morgul
wound and was not under the control of the Nazgul and Sauron.
Odysseus
>
> I always thought of it as the difference between being exposed
> to radiation and having a bit of radioactive stuff inside you -
> you could recover from the exposure, with proper treatment (to a
> certain point, of course), but the continued re-exposure from
> having it inside you would make all the cure in the world fail
> (not so far-fetched - think of all the iradium (spelling ?
> proper compound ?) painted watch-faces from the not so distant
> past - big difference in wearing the watch and wearing, or
> ingesting, the pretty glowing "paint").
>
possibility that comes to mind, is similar to platinum and not
usually at all radioactive.
--
Odysseus
Christopher Kreuzer
> I think you must mean the element "radium". "Iridium", the other
> possibility that comes to mind, is similar to platinum and not
> usually at all radioactive.
[Actually, luminous watch dials probably use tritium.]
Iridium-191 and Iridium-193 are relatively stable and long-lived
isotopes that occur naturally in nature. Iridium-192 is a less stable
isotope, decaying through beta radiation, and has a half-life of 74
days.
Apparantly there are also things such as nuclear isomers, where the
protons or neutrons are in an excited state containing more energy.
There is a nuclear isomer of iridium-192 with a half-life of 241 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_state
And a comprehensive list of isotopes of iridium:
http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/iso077.html
Taemon
> Maybe I can take a fall-back position that _Gandalf_ is
> over-reacting to Frodo's comments. Frodo comment was, I
> now agree, quite innocent. Gandalf, however, may have
> been momentarily worried. He was surely looking closely
> for signs that Frodo was truly recovered from the Morgul
> wound and was not under the control of the Nazgul and
> Sauron.
I'm not sure. I don't think Gandals understood the "we are safe"
as Gollum-speech either. Maybe he was wondering if he should tell
Frodo they weren't safe yet. Or he thought Frodo was joking :-)
T.
Dirk Thierbach
> Yes! What a cheeky thing for the writer to do, too, to insert 'the
> hobbit' back into his new story in such a bold fashion. Didn't he
> know that there was supposed to be this big gap between the
> "children's story" of 'The Hobbit' and the "adult fairy tale" of 'The
> Lord of the Rings'? Of course, he did know that.
I am not sure he knew it at the time he was writing the chapter. AFAIK
the difference in style between the Hobbit and the LotR developed
gradually, and there are still a few quite 'childish' details left at
the beginning of LotR (for example the talking fox).
- Dirk
Rich Gibbs
> Odysseus <odysseu...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
>
>>I think you must mean the element "radium". "Iridium", the other
>>possibility that comes to mind, is similar to platinum and not
>>usually at all radioactive.
>
>
> [Actually, luminous watch dials probably use tritium.]
>
Current luminous watch dials do use tritium, but years ago some watches
were made with radium-painted dials. Some of the painters apparently
would "point" the brush tip in their mouths (much as you might see
someone doing when about the thread a needle), and thus ended up
ingesting some of the radium, with unfortunate effects.
--
Rich Gibbs
rgi...@his.com
Glenn Holliday
>
> his brief appearance in the story to misdirect the reader into
> thinking that he's the natural choice of a love interest for Arwen.
It misdirected me into expecting him to be in the Fellowship.
A chapter later I was thinking "Legolas? Who's he?"
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Glenn Holliday
> > found Frodo lying face down on the ground, his broken sword
> > underneath him.
>
> Doesn't this remind you of Elendil? I think the difference is that
> Narsil actually broke as Elendil fell on it, but Frodo's blade was
> shattered by the WK.
Also Turin collapsing on his sword (though unbroken)
after giving Glaurung his death wound.
This is actually a common plot device. If you read the
King Arthur stories, you find knights lying on their broken
swords in every other chapter.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Glenn Holliday
>
> It is, or at least was, possible for a man to admire a woman for both
> beauty and other things without planning to seduce her into bed. A man with
> an admirable wife would be pleased that she had admirerers, so long as they
> did not seek to usurp his place. So call me old-fashioned. The author
> certainly was.
And that certainly fits into Tolkien's societies, although he is
very indirect about this. Gimli and Galadriel, and Eowyn and
Aragorn are both appropriate admiration-relationships as long as
the mores are observed.
I suspect that Arwen had other suitors before Aragorn's birth, too.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Glenn Holliday
>
> On 12 Apr 2004 Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:
>
> > Chapter Of The Week Lotr Bk2 Ch1: Many Meetings
> [snip]
>
> My thoughts (sorry, don't seem to overlap with yours anywhere):
>
> enforced absence "nearly proved our ruin", it may have been better so?
> Does he mean that, not travelling with the others, he was able
> inadvertently to act as a decoy and draw off the Riders? Is he
> referring to the hobbits' new relationship with Strider, or simply the
> amount of toughening and growing-up Frodo has had to do? It's a
> characteristically gnomic utterance, but not one that with hindsight
> seems to make a lot of sense.
I think 2 things:
1. Aragorn has been firmly pulled into the affair. Remember there
is some tension in motives: Aragorn accompanies the Ring because
it's on the way to Gondor. Without the "wilderness bonding",
Aragorn might not have wanted to be included in the Fellowship.
I imagine Galdalf is very happy to have him more involved.
2. Remember in The Hobbit Bilbo is a third wheel until
Gandalf gets out of the way. Frodo's danger on the way
to Rivendell have made him better qualified for the longer
danger ahead. He wouldn't have had the same learning
if Gandalf had provided interference for the run from
Bree to Rivendell.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Glenn Holliday
>
> I was interested to note that Frodo apparently doesn't consider Gandalf
> to be himself one of 'the Big People', that is, not human. If he doesn't
> think he is human, what *does* he think he is?
I don't think he knows. But he definitely knows Gandalf is different.
He may think of "Wizard" as another race or species, just like
"Hobbit," "Dwarf," and "Elf."
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Glenn Holliday
>
> We are told that "Elrond is a master of healing"; yet it takes him
> three days to effect the same cure that Aragorn, later, is to perform
> as an instantaneous miracle in the Houses of Healing. Is this because
> Aragorn grows greatly in power as he approaches his throne (he achieves
> little with /athelas/ on Frodo's wound here), or is it just that the
> physical presence of a Morgul-knife is far more deadly than the Black
> Breath alone?
I think the physical object is more dangerous and effective
than the less-solid effects.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Glenn Holliday
>
> TeaLady (Mari C.) <spres...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> [comparing Morgul-blade effect to radioactivity]
>
> > (not so far-fetched - think of all the iradium (spelling ?
> > proper compound ?) painted watch-faces from the not so distant
> > past - big difference in wearing the watch and wearing, or
> > ingesting, the pretty glowing "paint").
>
> Iridium-192 (Ir-192). Not sure if it was used in watches in the past. I
> found a site giving uses of radioisotopes, but it is 1.5 years
> out-of-date. It says that tritium is used for luminous watch dials and
> paints.
Marie may be thinking of the early use of radium for this
purpose. Workers would lick their paintbrushes, thus ingesting
radium and causing the first cases of industrial radiation
poisoning.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Christopher Kreuzer
> This is actually a common plot device. If you read the
> King Arthur stories, you find knights lying on their broken
> swords in every other chapter.
Symbolic of something?
ste...@nomail.com
: I think JRRT is really pushing Glorfindel forward at every moment of
: his brief appearance in the story to misdirect the reader into
: thinking that he's the natural choice of a love interest for Arwen.
I doubt that. Arwen did not exist as a character when Tolkien wrote
all the stuff about Glorfindel. Even in the final version, after
the reader is introduced to Arwen, Glorfindel drops out of the picture.
He says a couple of things in the council, and that is pretty much it.
By the time we even know who Arwen is and might even think she
has a love interest, Glorfindel is pretty much out of the story.
Stephen
Taemon
> > I think JRRT is really pushing Glorfindel forward at
> > every moment of his brief appearance in the story to
> > misdirect the reader into thinking that he's the
> > natural choice of a love interest for Arwen.
But by the time we meet Arwen, Glorfindel is out of the picture.
T.
Belba Grubb from Stock
>In rec.arts.books.tolkien Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>: I think JRRT is really pushing Glorfindel forward at every moment of
>: his brief appearance in the story to misdirect the reader into
>: thinking that he's the natural choice of a love interest for Arwen.
>
>I doubt that. Arwen did not exist as a character when Tolkien wrote
>all the stuff about Glorfindel.
But the moment the daughter of Elrond was brought in, she was a very
strong character and the question of her love interest would be a big
one that affected all versions of the story, prior as well as the
working one.
>Even in the final version, after
>the reader is introduced to Arwen, Glorfindel drops out of the picture.
>He says a couple of things in the council, and that is pretty much it.
>By the time we even know who Arwen is and might even think she
>has a love interest, Glorfindel is pretty much out of the story.
But in this chapter, as JRRT wrote the final version, early on we have
Glorfindel seated at Elrond's right hand while Arwen is at the table,
and yet at the end we see Aragorn standing next to her in the Hall of
Fire where she is seated at Elrond's side. I think that contrast
early and later in the chapter is there deliberately in order to
mislead and then pique the interest of the reader. This is not to say
that it works completely -- the business with Aragorn is rather
underdrawn, even if JRRT did give him Elvish mail, and I missed it the
first few times through.
Barb
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the
kindly West. Some courage and some wisdom, blended in
measure. If more of us valued food and cheer and song above
hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
-- Thorin Oakenshield, to Bilbo
Belba Grubb from Stock
>Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message news:<nft0801srsqaqrqni...@4ax.com>...
>
>> Ho! Tom Bombadil! Ring a ding dello!
>> Raven and the author best be wary of that fellow!
>>
>> ;^)
>
>A noteworthy moment: The Grubb is turning slowly into a Poet!
>
>Henriette
ROTFL!!!
Or could it be that with Tom Bombadil JRRT hot-wired into some deep
native source of "white man's rap" that's in us all, and it just sort
of broke through there for a Grubb moment?
Belba Grubb from Stock
<jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
>"Belba Grubb from Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> skrev i en meddelelse
>news:nft0801srsqaqrqni...@4ax.com...
>
>> On 14 Apr 2004 13:51:45 -0700, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
>
>> >I think JRRT, like Raven, had a great secret admiration for Goldberry.
>
>> Ho! Tom Bombadil! Ring a ding dello!
>> Raven and the author best be wary of that fellow!
>
> It is, or at least was, possible for a man to admire a woman for both
>beauty and other things without planning to seduce her into bed. A man with
>an admirable wife would be pleased that she had admirerers, so long as they
>did not seek to usurp his place. So call me old-fashioned. The author
>certainly was.
It is wonderful to meet anyone inclined to hold onto the good things,
regardless of when they happened to be trendy.
Barb
____
BEAUTY, n.
The power by which a woman charms a lover and terrifies a husband.
--Ambrose Bierce
____
Belba Grubb from Stock
<theu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Igenlode Wordsmith wrote:
>(snip)
>> "a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and through it he found
>> himself eyeing a little wrinkled creature": adaptations seem to assume
>> that the mere sight of the Ring turns Bilbo into a sort of proto-Gollum.
>> But reading this again it occurs to me to wonder whether the fault here
>> is in Bilbo, or in Frodo's jealous perception, as it will be later in
>> the Tower of Cirith Ungol.
>>
>> Does Bilbo really have a greedy, deforming desire for the Ring? Or is it
>> that Frodo is already afraid to let go of it?
>
>I think it is the Ring already beginning to exert influence on Frodo.
Frodo felt an urge to strike Bilbo, and perhaps the old hobbit
perceived that.
Barb
the softrat
Only to crypto-Freudians. Not to real people.
the softrat
"I feel like I'm beating my head against a dead horse."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
The beatings will cease when morale improves.
ste...@nomail.com
:>In rec.arts.books.tolkien Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
:>: I think JRRT is really pushing Glorfindel forward at every moment of
:>: his brief appearance in the story to misdirect the reader into
:>: thinking that he's the natural choice of a love interest for Arwen.
:>
:>I doubt that. Arwen did not exist as a character when Tolkien wrote
:>all the stuff about Glorfindel.
: But the moment the daughter of Elrond was brought in, she was a very
: strong character and the question of her love interest would be a big
: one that affected all versions of the story, prior as well as the
: working one.
She was not brought in until Tolkien decided that we wanted Aragorn's
marriage to reunite the sundered lines of the Half-elven. Originally Aragorn
married Eowyn. The description of Glorfindel, Gandalf and Elrond had
already been written and was not changed. So Tolkien was "pushing" Glorfindel
just the same when Arwen did not exist, so his intentions regarding Glorfindel
had nothing to do with Arwen.
:>Even in the final version, after
:>the reader is introduced to Arwen, Glorfindel drops out of the picture.
:>He says a couple of things in the council, and that is pretty much it.
:>By the time we even know who Arwen is and might even think she
:>has a love interest, Glorfindel is pretty much out of the story.
: But in this chapter, as JRRT wrote the final version, early on we have
: Glorfindel seated at Elrond's right hand while Arwen is at the table,
: and yet at the end we see Aragorn standing next to her in the Hall of
: Fire where she is seated at Elrond's side. I think that contrast
: early and later in the chapter is there deliberately in order to
: mislead and then pique the interest of the reader.
I do not think it was deliberate because the the part describing
Glorfindel and Elrond was written before Arwen existed, and it
was not changed. The late addition of Arwen was not done seamlessly,
and little of the surrounding text was modified. One result of this
is the oddity that we are told that Elladan and Elrohir made a great
journey into a strange country. When written, Arwen did not exist,
and it looks like Tolkien was trying to keep Lorien a surprise.
When Arwen was added, we are told she had been in Lorien, which then
makes the later reference to a "strange country" very confusing.
Stephen
Christopher Kreuzer
> On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:05:27 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> Glenn Holliday <holl...@acm.org> wrote:
>>> This is actually a common plot device. If you read the
>>> King Arthur stories, you find knights lying on their broken
>>> swords in every other chapter.
>> Symbolic of something?
> Only to crypto-Freudians. Not to real people.
Or maybe broken swords are symbolic of death?
Odysseus
>
> Odysseus <odysseu...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
> > I think you must mean the element "radium". "Iridium", the other
> > possibility that comes to mind, is similar to platinum and not
> > usually at all radioactive.
>
> [Actually, luminous watch dials probably use tritium.]
>
about the (especially dangerous) ones made in the first half of the
last century. The use of even tritium compounds, with all other
radioluminescent substances, in consumer products has been banned in
some jurisdictions, so there is work being done at improving the
performance of non-radioactive phosphorescent materials. OTOH the
general public's fear of radiation -- even sunshine! -- is often
quite out of proportion to the actual risks.
> Iridium-191 and Iridium-193 are relatively stable and long-lived
> isotopes that occur naturally in nature. Iridium-192 is a less stable
> isotope, decaying through beta radiation, and has a half-life of 74
> days.
>
[snip interesting but OT details]
Just about every element has a number of radioactive isotopes, which
fact I attempted to acknowledge by qualifying my remark with
"usually". But AFAICT both isotopes of iridium from natural mineral
sources (occuring in a proportion of about three parts Ir-191 to five
parts Ir-193) are stable enough not to produce any detectable
spontaneous radioactivity -- they certainly don't glow in the dark!
--
Odysseus
Christopher Kreuzer
> The use of even tritium compounds, with all other
> radioluminescent substances, in consumer products has been banned in
> some jurisdictions, so there is work being done at improving the
> performance of non-radioactive phosphorescent materials.
As you say, I am sure the risks are small or non-existant, but before
this discussion I was unaware that the luminescence of watch dials was
due to radioluminesence rather than phosphorescence, or should that be
fluorescence. Hmm. I really need to look all this up again as I should
know already! Anyway, the light resulting from radioluminesence is
presumably the last bit in a chain of energy release triggered by
nuclear decay? Possible a chain reaction where the energetic beta(?)
radiation (electrons) is absorbed by surrounding atoms which then relax
to produce the light photons. And phosphorescence and fluoresence are
presumably the same, but due to initial changes in the energy of
electrons (ie. luminescence that is chemical in origin rather than
nuclear)?
>> Iridium-191 and Iridium-193 are relatively stable and long-lived
>> isotopes that occur naturally in nature. Iridium-192 is a less stable
>> isotope, decaying through beta radiation, and has a half-life of 74
>> days.
>>
> [snip interesting but OT details]
>
> Just about every element has a number of radioactive isotopes, which
> fact I attempted to acknowledge by qualifying my remark with
> "usually".
Sure. But I was finding the discussion possibilities interesting!
ste...@nomail.com
: On 18 Apr 2004 19:31:15 GMT, ste...@nomail.com wrote:
:>I do not think it was deliberate because the the part describing
:>Glorfindel and Elrond was written before Arwen existed, and it
:>was not changed. The late addition of Arwen was not done seamlessly,
:>and little of the surrounding text was modified. One result of this
:>is the oddity that we are told that Elladan and Elrohir made a great
:>journey into a strange country. When written, Arwen did not exist,
:>and it looks like Tolkien was trying to keep Lorien a surprise.
:>When Arwen was added, we are told she had been in Lorien, which then
:>makes the later reference to a "strange country" very confusing.
: Lorien is strange to the hobbits, and it's not made clear to them
: where Elladan and Elrohir have been. It's not strange to Elrond and
: his circle. This was clear to me even on the first reading of the
: book.
But Lorien has already been mentioned. We are explicitly told that
Arwen has recently returned from Lorien, despite Lorien being a "strange
country" to the hobbits. Why mention Lorien explicitly, but then later
mysteriously refer to it as a "strange country"? It does not make any
sense to me from a story internal or external view point.
Stephen
Igenlode Wordsmith
> Igenlode Wordsmith wrote:
>
> > When Frodo says "now we are safe", why does this elicit a sidelong
> > glance from Gandalf? The implication seems to be that if Frodo had not
> > already shut his eyes, he might have seen something in Gandalf's
> > expression - but what is so significant about this remark?
>
> This point you made jumped out at me. I'd missed this, and it seems to
> be a clear reference to Frodo saying that both he and the Ring are safe.
[snip]
I must own that, as an interpretation, this would seem less than obvious
to me from the context. Frodo says "I thought I was drowning, with my
friends and enemies and all. But now we are safe!" - 'we', here, would
naturally refer back to 'all my friends', as is confirmed by Gandalf's
rejoinder "Yes, you are all safe for the present." *Does* Frodo refer
to himself and the Ring as 'we' at any point even towards the end, let
alone close to this stage in the narrative?
The significance, if any, would seem from Gandalf's words to lie in the
'safe': the suggestion, to my ears, is that Gandalf has reason to think
that they are *not* safe, but reassures Frodo who cannot see his face
(over which, presumably, an expression of alarm might have flitted).
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
its: belonging to it - it's: "it is" (contraction )
Öjevind Lång
news:7on9l1...@ID-7776.user.uni-berlin.de...
[snip]
> I am not sure he knew it at the time he was writing the chapter. AFAIK
> the difference in style between the Hobbit and the LotR developed
> gradually, and there are still a few quite 'childish' details left at
> the beginning of LotR (for example the talking fox).
Tolkien himself commented on that. He wrote somewhere (in a letter, I think)
that Book One of LotR was very different in character from the rest of the
book, but that it couldn't be helped.
Öjevind
Jim Deutch
<odysseu...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
>last century. The use of even tritium compounds, with all other
>radioluminescent substances, in consumer products has been banned in
>some jurisdictions, so there is work being done at improving the
>performance of non-radioactive phosphorescent materials. OTOH the
>general public's fear of radiation -- even sunshine! -- is often
>quite out of proportion to the actual risks.
I once had a watch with a tritium-illuminated dial. The half-life of
tritium is seven years, but in less than seven years the illumination
had faded to almost nothing. That's the trouble with tritium: just
like hydrogen, it has an incredible propensity to leak out through not
only the smallest holes, but actually right through seemingly solid
materials (including solid stainless steel).
The amount leaked out on my wrist was negligible, of course: the
problem is the much greater amounts lost during the manufacturing,
storage, and transportation of bulk quantities of the material.
That's why its use is now very tightly controlled (and in many cases,
outright banned).
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?
Jim Deutch
<jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
>
> It is, or at least was, possible for a man to admire a woman for both
>beauty and other things without planning to seduce her into bed. A man with
>an admirable wife would be pleased that she had admirerers, so long as they
>did not seek to usurp his place. So call me old-fashioned. The author
>certainly was.
They can seek, too, as far as I'm concerned, as long as they don't go
over the top with it and start actually annoying her. I don't care
how many men she feels sorry for because of their desire for her, as
long as I'm not one of them!
"... I don't know half of you as well as I should like , and I like
less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
Sic foncionnatit, nil copulatum
Troels Forchhammer
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
<snip>
>> CHAPTER SUMMARY:
>
> Nice summary.
Agreed. Thanks, Barb.
(Unfortunately the initial message never reached my home server, and it
has expired on the server at work before I got around to responding.
Analogue life has been interfering again ...)
<snip>
[Bilbo]
>> asks to see the Ring, and when Frodo brings it out to show him,
>> Bilbo finally understands just how evil the Ring is and
>> apologizes to Frodo for giving him this burden.
>
> It is a bit more than that!
>
> "a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and through it he
> found himself eyeing a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face
> and bony groping hands. He felt a desire to strike him. The music
> and singing round them seemed to falter, and a silence fell."
I have often wondered what transpired here.
Did the dear old Hobbit really transform in some way, or was it a Ring-
induced fantasy Frodo experienced? Did Bilbo become consumed with Ring-
lust for a moment before realising what happened or did he see a look
of disgust and horror on Frodo's face and realise what the Ring was
doing to Frodo (more than what It had done to himself)?
I have wavered back and forth on this question, but am, at the moment,
squarely planted on top of the fence (it's a nice, broad fence, and I
brought a lot of cushions and a large lunch-box, so I'm ready to wait
it out <g>), though leaning towards the "Ring-induced vision"
explanation.
The shadow "/seemed/ to have fallen between them" (my emphasis) and
Frodo "found himself eyeing" the changed Bilbo. The whole passage you
quoted is written exclusively from Frodo's viewpoint, and the
'resolution' (Bilbo looking at Frodo's face, and then apologising)
suggests that it is what Bilbo sees there that makes him understand
(but then; might Bilbo not have seen a similar distorted vision of
Frodo?).
> Another horrifying moment! Emphasizing the power of the One Ring
> in a stronghold of the Elves under the influence of Elrond's Ring.
Truly!
Despite all the warnings previously, I think that this was the moment
where I first realised just how evil the Ring was: how much it could
affect and corrupt its bearer.
The passage also leads nicely up to the rejection of the Ring by the
council - we (or I, at least) have no problem accepting the judgement
of Gandalf and Elrond when they tell us that the Ring is too dangerous
to use.
<snip>
>> It sort of draws you in, perhaps, as you meet old friends
>> in a new setting ("Many Meetings") and go on to just spend a
>> pleasant evening in a very nice place.
>
> I've always found it a nice contrast that we see the two sides of
> Rivendell, the song and entertainments in this chapter, and the
> serious side, the lore and history, in the next chapter (The
> Council of Elrond).
Both chapters are filled with references to /The Hobbit/, but while
they, in this chapter, gives a nice feeling of familiarity, safety and
comfort (especially Rivendell itself, "a perfect house, whether you
like food or sleep, or story-telling or singing, or just sitting and
thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all," and the way Glóin's
account of Erebor and Dale provides a kind of closure to TH by (almost)
using Bilbo's favourite ending), in the next chapter they give a sense
of foreboding - an evil was discovered that must be destroyed.
As I think of this, I sit in awe of Tolkien's talent ;-)
<snip>
>> -- How is it that Bilbo finally achieves his understanding of the
>> Ring's evilness?
>
> I think that the renewed temptation made him understand that the
> Ring was provoking this reaction, and so the Ring was evil and it
> was not just his reaction. The timing would be different for
> different people, but Bilbo finally achieved his own personal
> understanding at this point. Not much more can really be said.
I seem to have been a bit premature above ;-)
As I said above, I am leaning towards the idea that the vision of the
shadow and Bilbo as "a little wrinkled creature ..." was a distortion
imposed on Frodo by the Ring (or by the effect it was beginning to have
on him), though I am still too unsure to decide ;-)
If this is the case, then I think Bilbo's understanding came from
observing Frodo. In that case he realised what the Ring was doing to
Frodo, and probably remembered his own reaction on the night of his
great party. This would, IMO, explain the way this passage ends,
"Bilbo looked quickly at Frodo's face and passed his hand
across his eyes. `I understand now,' he said. `Put it away!
I am sorry: sorry you have come in for this burden: sorry
about everything."
On the other hand his passing "his hand across his eyes" may mean that
he also had some kind of vision himself (did he also see the shadow
that seemed to fall between them?)
> Do you think Gollum or Frodo ever understood the evil of the Ring?
I do think that Frodo, in the end, did understand. Even though he felt
guilty of his failure to destroy the Ring and despite (or even because
of) his continued longing for the Ring. If Frodo had any understanding
of his own situation after the destruction of the Ring, he must have
realised its evil, even if he was still helplessly desiring it.
About Frodo's situation (and many other interesting things) can be read
in letter #246:
<http://google.vg/groups?selm=LgaHb.66282$aT....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
or if that wraps:
<http://tinyurl.com/2uz3f>
Gollum, though - what about him. A remark from Gandalf in I,2 comes to
my mind:
'You ought to begin to understand, Frodo, after all you have
heard,' said Gandalf. 'He hated it and loved it, as he hated
and loved himself. He could not get rid of it. He had no
will left in the matter.'"
Did Gollum realise this himself? He might. Again according to Gandalf,
"He hated the dark, and he hated light more: he hated everything, and
the Ring most of all." This does sound as if Gollum actually realised
that the Ring was the reason for his misery (I do doubt, however, that
he realised /how/ evil the Ring was).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to.
- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
Christopher Kreuzer
> I suspect that Arwen had other suitors before Aragorn's birth, too.
That brings up some strange possibilities. What about Arwen's ex being
Aragorn's great-great-grandfather? Ugh. Though I presume you meant
Elves.
Christopher Kreuzer
> On 17 Apr 2004 Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
>> Igenlode Wordsmith wrote:
>>
>>> When Frodo says "now we are safe", why does this elicit a sidelong
>>> glance from Gandalf? The implication seems to be that if Frodo had
>>> not already shut his eyes, he might have seen something in Gandalf's
>>> expression - but what is so significant about this remark?
>>
>> This point you made jumped out at me. I'd missed this, and it seems
>> to be a clear reference to Frodo saying that both he and the Ring
>> are safe. [snip]
>
> I must own that, as an interpretation, this would seem less than
> obvious to me from the context.
I've changed my mind completely on this. No Ring thing at all.
In fact, the Ring is not mentioned until much, much later in the
chapter.
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Near [Elrond] sat the Lady Arwen. To his surprise Frodo saw that
> Aragorn stood beside her": am I right in thinking that this is the
> first time, not only in this chapter but in the whole novel, that the
> character is referred to as 'Aragorn' rather than 'Strider' in the
> narration? And (glancing a few pages ahead) is "and in a corner alone
> Strider was sitting", in the opening pages of 'The Council of Elrond'
> before Aragorn's true ancestry is revealed, the last time he is
> referred to as 'Strider' at all?
>
> If so, the change in perception is very sudden...
I wouldn't surprise me. I don't think Tolkien always introduces
characters that well. It is not clear who Legolas and Gimli are when the
Fellowship is formed, as they are hardly mentioned in the previous
pages. Similarly, Arwen's mention can be misssed, and even Boromir's
status compared to Aragorn is not made very clear first time around.
There is a single sentence referring to the failing of the Kings, and
from that you have to make the connection that Aragorn has a claim to
the throne of Gondor.
Sometimes Tolkien was _too_ subtle!
Belba Grubb from Stock
wrote:
(snip)
>> >The other thing I love is Bilbo's poem about Earindil--whenever I read
>it, I
>> >"hear" it to the tune of "Errantry" that Donald Swann wrote for The Road
>> >Goes Ever On.
>>
>> No, actually JRRT wrote "Errantry."
>
>Sorry. I was not clear enough. The *tune* is what D. Swann wrote. 8-) I
>know JRRT wrote "Errantry". I was referring to the *music*. LOL
Sorry, my mistake -- I misread what you wrote (duh-oh!)
It's been years since I heard the music, but it does have that same
"feel" to it.
Anyway, here is the article where I heard about the interesting
history of "Errantry" --
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/91315
Barb
Belba Grubb from Stock
>In rec.arts.books.tolkien Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>: On 18 Apr 2004 18:25:34 GMT, ste...@nomail.com wrote:
>
>:>In rec.arts.books.tolkien Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>:>: I think JRRT is really pushing Glorfindel forward at every moment of
>:>: his brief appearance in the story to misdirect the reader into
>:>: thinking that he's the natural choice of a love interest for Arwen.
>:>
>:>I doubt that. Arwen did not exist as a character when Tolkien wrote
>:>all the stuff about Glorfindel.
>
>: But the moment the daughter of Elrond was brought in, she was a very
>: strong character and the question of her love interest would be a big
>: one that affected all versions of the story, prior as well as the
>: working one.
>
>She was not brought in until Tolkien decided that we wanted Aragorn's
>marriage to reunite the sundered lines of the Half-elven. Originally Aragorn
>married Eowyn. The description of Glorfindel, Gandalf and Elrond had
>already been written and was not changed. So Tolkien was "pushing" Glorfindel
>just the same when Arwen did not exist, so his intentions regarding Glorfindel
>had nothing to do with Arwen.
(snip rest)
Here we run into the problem of too much information on the process of
the story's creation. I don't know about all the background stuff
(and haven't yet been stirred enough to look at it all, although that
will change soon in large part due to the interesting things discussed
on these newsgroups; here, however, it is merely confusing). I just
know what I see in the completed "Lord of the Rings," and that is the
impression one gets of Glorfindel (this one, anyway -- YMMV). It
might just as well be, whatever the sequence of the original creation,
that JRRT left it as is precisely because Glorfindel was such a useful
"red herring"; of couse, JRRT could have had some other purpose in
mind, too.
Barb
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:4082C20B...@acm.org:
Yup. That's it. A long-ago and not-so-far-away practice.
--
mc
Jim Deutch
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>> "a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and through it he
>> found himself eyeing a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face
>> and bony groping hands. He felt a desire to strike him. The music
>> and singing round them seemed to falter, and a silence fell."
>
>I have often wondered what transpired here.
MHO: Frodo had a ring-induced "vision". I think Bilbo had one, too,
though its exact content is harder to guess. I do think Bilbo saw the
look of disgust on Frodo's face, but the essential part of the
experience for him, I think, was his own feeling of ring-lust and rage
at its being held by another. It was this that gave him the
realization (once they'd overcome their "visions") that the Ring was
indeed evil.
One wonders whether, had they met alone in the wilderness, rather than
in the Room of Fire surrounded by peaceful Elven music, they would
have managed so well. Having each borne the ring for years, it would
seem likely to have a stronger hold on each of them than it did on
Deagol and Smeagol, and we all know how that confrontation turned
out...
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
"If you try to please everybody, someone isn't going to like it."
Troels Forchhammer
10313...@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) enriched us with:
> On 19 Apr 2004 23:01:28 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> "a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and through it he
>>> found himself eyeing a little wrinkled creature with a hungry
>>> face and bony groping hands. He felt a desire to strike him. The
>>> music and singing round them seemed to falter, and a silence
>>> fell."
>>
>> I have often wondered what transpired here.
>
> MHO: Frodo had a ring-induced "vision".
That's what I am leaning towards as well rather than the vampiric
transformation of Bilbo shown in the film.
> I think Bilbo had one, too, though its exact content is harder to
> guess.
If he did, I'd suppose that he saw a much distorted vision of Frodo's
horror, disgust and possessiveness.
> I do think Bilbo saw the look of disgust on Frodo's face, but the
> essential part of the experience for him, I think, was his own
> feeling of ring-lust and rage at its being held by another.
That is the part that I'm most in doubt about.
It does, however, fit well with Gandalf's remark in I, 2, "Of course,
he possessed the ring for many years, and used it, so it might take a
long while for the influence to wear off - before it was safe for him
to see it again, for instance."
For some reason I only remembered that citation now - it does seem to
hint that Bilbo felt the influence of the Ring ...
> It was this that gave him the realization (once they'd overcome
> their "visions") that the Ring was indeed evil.
That would be the natural consequence, I agree.
> One wonders whether, had they met alone in the wilderness,
[...]
Ouch!
What a terrible idea ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time of payment
draws near.
- Aragorn Son of Arathorn, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Igenlode Wordsmith
> Igenlode Wordsmith wrote:
> > On 17 Apr 2004 Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
[snip]
> >> it seems to be a clear reference to Frodo saying that both he and the Ring
> >> are safe. [snip]
> >
> > I must own that, as an interpretation, this would seem less than
> > obvious to me from the context.
>
> I've changed my mind completely on this. No Ring thing at all.
>
Yes, I did see - and note - your further discussion on this with
interest. Unfortunately, since I'm reading on a bit of a delay, the
relevant section of the group didn't arrive until after I'd already
composed and sent my replies to the previous day's messages!
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
The Yellow God forever gazes down
Hashemon Urtasman
Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:
>
> I don't know how JRRT achieves that, though the conversation between
> Gandalf and Frodo at the start of the chapter actually sounds much
> more natural and wandering than some other conversations elsewhere in
> the story. It sort of draws you in, perhaps, as you meet old friends
> in a new setting ("Many Meetings") and go on to just spend a pleasant
> evening in a very nice place. That's very difficult to set up into a
> formal discussion list, but it's very worthwhile discussing as here
> the story begins to turn on a hinge, so to speak, in a new "Chapter 1"
> and will soon head south.
>
> What do you find interesting about this chapter?
>
A nice interesting piece of the story is when Bilbo tells how he wrote
the Earendil poem. Bilbo wrote that Aragon insisted on putting in a
green stone in the poem. The whole thing sounds so "real", as if what
is merely a fairy-tale story to Bilbo is something 'real' which they
believe in, to Elrond's people. I get the impression that they put more
emphasis on their ancient tales than people such as Bilbo did.
One more fact I'd want to put out. The Earendil story seems more like
the Aeneid than anything else to me. But there is only one line in the
poem which I would like to comment on:
/quote/
"upon his breast an emerald."
"...As a matter of fact it was all mine. Except that Aragorn insisted
on my putting in a green stone. He seemed to think it important. I
don't know why. Otherwise he thought the whole thing rather above my
head, and he said ..."
/end quote/
Once my Latin teacher said to our Latin class that he had a student
whose father was a gemologist, and at some point in the Aeneid Virgil
described a purple jewel that Aeneas wore, while sailing from Carthage
to Italy. The student jumped up and said "Dido must have given it to
him!" because he recognized that stone and said that the only place in
the world it was found was in Tyre, Lebanon (which is where Dido came to
Carthage from.) This sounds like the type of thing Earendil had with
his story, what to someone is a meaningless detail is the crux of the
matter for some other people.
This pinpoint accuracy of Tolkien, Virgil, and Homer, is part of what
makes this story so much fun to be reading.
BTW What is so important about Earendil in the mythology? Why was the
story presented here? What made Bilbo so interested in him?
cheers,rgds.
Hasan
Henriette
> "Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:be50318e.04041...@posting.google.com...
> > > > I think JRRT, like Raven, had a great secret admiration for Goldberry.
>
>
> > 'Safe' then.
>
> That's more accurate, since she is a fictitional character.
>
And Tom likewise...
Henriette
Henriette
> On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 23:13:30 +0200, "Raven"
> <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
>
> > It is, or at least was, possible for a man to admire a woman for both
> >beauty and other things without planning to seduce her into bed. A man with
> >an admirable wife would be pleased that she had admirerers, so long as they
> >did not seek to usurp his place. So call me old-fashioned. The author
> >certainly was.
>
> It is wonderful to meet anyone inclined to hold onto the good things,
> regardless of when they happened to be trendy.
>
Ofcourse it is true, but Raafje always reacts so seriously when he is
being teased. A Norwegian thing, seemingly:-)
Henriette
Christopher Kreuzer
[about Bilbo's verse on Earendil]
> BTW What is so important about Earendil in the mythology? Why was the
> story presented here? What made Bilbo so interested in him?
Well, the verse itself tells you why Earendil is important.
<checks.....>
Actually, it doesn't explain much at all, how strange!
I am convinced I enjoyed this poem from the very first time I read it,
but it doesn't make an awful lot of sense until you've read 'The
Silmarillion', or maybe I'm missing something here.
In short, the Earendil story is irrelevant to LotR, except for the
connection with Elrond and the green stone that Aragorn posseses, and
for the other references to Earendil later in LotR (Galadriel and Frodo,
IIRC).
The song does play a purpose in creating part of the atmosphere of
Rivendell, and the Hall of Fire in particular.
I think Bilbo would have been interested in Earendil as part of his
wider interest in Elven history and lore, rummaging through the
libraries of Rivendell.
Raven
> Ofcourse it is true, but Raafje always reacts so seriously when he is
> being teased. A Norwegian thing, seemingly:-)
NO I DO NOT! Now sit back while I explain it to you...
Raaf.
Shanahan
>> Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote:
> [about Bilbo's verse on Earendil]
>> BTW What is so important about Earendil in the mythology? Why was
>> the story presented here? What made Bilbo so interested in him?
>
> Well, the verse itself tells you why Earendil is important.
> <checks.....>
> Actually, it doesn't explain much at all, how strange!
> I think Bilbo would have been interested in Earendil as part of his
> wider interest in Elven history and lore, rummaging through the
> libraries of Rivendell.
> Christopher
(Basically, Eärendil was/is Elrond's father, and the last guy who saved
ME, by sailing West to Aman and pleading directly with the Valar for
intercession against Morgoth.)
I agree the poem's mostly a mood-setter here, and doesn't make much sense
to someone who's only read LotR. Although the Appendices do have a couple
of brief sentences about Eärendil, they don't give much info. I am
interested in why Tolkien put this particular poem in this particular
place, too. Did he want the reader to be thinking about saving Middle
Earth, right before the Council chapter?
Perhaps Bilbo had a special interest in Eärendil simply because he was
Elrond's father. You know hobbits and genealogy.
Here's a question that just occurred to me: what exactly is Bilbo and
Elrond's relationship? Obviously, friendship, but I'm wondering if Bilbo
felt any formal obligation or indebtedness to Elrond, in return for what
amounted to lifelong guesting. Is Bilbo a freeloader? <g> I would
assume that the ancient obligations of a host would be felt pretty keenly
by Elrond. Tolkien's world is one where duties like that are taken
seriously. And Rivendell was founded as a refuge. But still, Elrond
bends over backwards for Bilbo even before anyone knows about the Ring.
Hmm...
- Ciaran S.
Christopher Kreuzer
[about Bilbo's verse on Earendil]
> I agree the poem's mostly a mood-setter here, and doesn't make much
> sense to someone who's only read LotR. Although the Appendices do
> have a couple of brief sentences about Eärendil, they don't give much
> info. I am interested in why Tolkien put this particular poem in
> this particular place, too. Did he want the reader to be thinking
> about saving Middle Earth, right before the Council chapter?
That doesn't work unless you've read 'The Silmarillion'. Read through
the poem as if you are a first-time reader. There is absolutely no
reference to Earendil's mission, only the fact that he was trying to
find this place over the Sea. We do hear of the "weeping sore of women
and of Elven-maids", but there is no indication that Earendil's
appearance in the sky is a sign of hope to them, only a reference to the
fact that the Edain followed his star to find Numenor (Flammifer of
Westernesse).
You do get the impression, though, that important stuff happened to
Earendil. The whole poem is very much about him, more so than the prose
version of this story in the published Silmarillion.
I've just been reading about how Tolkien wrote poems (specifically the
Lays of Beleriand) before some of his prose pieces in the Silmarillion,
and how the poetic nature of the prose sometimes comes directly from the
earlier poems. In a similar way, this got me thinking about whether this
poem was written before or after the prose bit in 'The Silmarillion',
and whether this might be a reversal of this normal textual history.
i.e. Was the poem written after the story was written, or was the poem
the first form of the story?
I really wish I could remember the first time I read the poem! I
strongly suspect that might have only really started to understand and
so _really_ like this poem _after_ reading 'The Silmarillion'.
Brenda Selwyn
>Chapter Of The Week Lotr Bk2 Ch1: Many Meetings
>In the meantime, Glóin tells Frodo all about the changes
>in the Lonely Mountain and in Dale.
I like the mention of "Brand son of Bain son of Bard". It gives a
good idea of just how much time has passed since the events of TH.
>What do you find interesting about this chapter?
No-one has mentioned Lindir and his "To sheep other sheep no doubt
appear different". Am I the only person who finds this quite rude?
Brenda
--
*************************************************************************
Brenda Selwyn
"In England's green and pleasant land"
"The important thing about adventures, thought Mr Bunnsy, was that they
shouldn't be so long as to make you miss mealtimes."
Brenda Selwyn
Like you I don't know anything about the background stuff either, but
"Glorfindel as love interest for Arwen" never occured to me until you
said it, and even then I don't see it I'm afraid. We see them sitting
at the same table at a formal banquet, but there are several other
people at the table too and we don't see any interaction between them.
But later, we see Aragorn and Arwen standing and talking together;
this is an intimate informal moment and Tolkien draws our attention to
it particularly. ISTM only Aragorn is being set up as the love
interest here. Putting Glorfindel at Elrond's right hand marks him
out as a very important person, but love interest for Arwen?
Also, if they did have a thing for each other, why didn't they get
together decades ago? Of course Elrond might have preferred Arwen to
marry Glorfindel, but that's a different matter...
FWIW, I find Aragorn and Arwen's romance seriously underwritten, one
of my few critisisms of the book.
Brenda Selwyn
>One result of this
>is the oddity that we are told that Elladan and Elrohir made a great
>journey into a strange country. When written, Arwen did not exist,
>and it looks like Tolkien was trying to keep Lorien a surprise.
>When Arwen was added, we are told she had been in Lorien, which then
>makes the later reference to a "strange country" very confusing.
Actually, I am a bit confused. I'm sure it's because I've missed
something, but where does it say Elladan and Elrohir had been to
Lorien?
Brenda Selwyn
>The significance, if any, would seem from Gandalf's words to lie in the
>'safe': the suggestion, to my ears, is that Gandalf has reason to think
>that they are *not* safe, but reassures Frodo who cannot see his face
>(over which, presumably, an expression of alarm might have flitted).
As in - "Ah, this is obviously some strange use of the word _safe_
that I wasn't previously aware of" :-)
Brenda Selwyn
>I would say that Gandalf is very impressed by Frodo's endurance and the
>qualities he has showed so far. That is shown more in this chapter. And
>in addition, trying to change Ringbearer would be problematic anyway...
Possibly, possibly not. I'm very sorry, after catching up briefly I
am a week behind again, so perhaps this is being discussed under the
next chapter. I will get there shortly:-(
>This chapter might be a good point to talk about why Elrond left the
>Ring on Frodo, and whether this was Elrond's temptation. Someone has put
>the Ring on a nice new chain for Frodo.
ISTM the Ring was returned to Frodo because belonged to him; no one
had the right to take it away, it would have been theft of sorts.
Besides which, I'm sure Gandalf and Elrond were well aware of the
risks of taking it away. I wonder, had they done so, what would have
happened when Frodo woke up and found it gone.
Christopher Kreuzer
>> Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>
>> Chapter Of The Week Lotr Bk2 Ch1: Many Meetings
>
> No-one has mentioned Lindir and his "To sheep other sheep no doubt
> appear different". Am I the only person who finds this quite rude?
He is talking about song-writing ability. I once thought he meant
appearances. Even so, it is still rude. I get the same impression from
the encounter with Gildor back in the Shire. Elrond is never rude like
this, is he? Neither was Glorfindel. I guess it is just Elves being
Elves. They can't help being immortal can they?!
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>I am convinced I enjoyed this poem from the very first time I read it,
>but it doesn't make an awful lot of sense until you've read 'The
>Silmarillion', or maybe I'm missing something here.
I was never able to force myself to read the verse all the way
through until after I had read /The Silmarillion/. I don't know why.
It's not like I didn't know who Earendil was -- it's quite well
explained by Strider on Weathertop.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>Here's a question that just occurred to me: what exactly is Bilbo and
>Elrond's relationship? Obviously, friendship, but I'm wondering if Bilbo
>felt any formal obligation or indebtedness to Elrond, in return for what
>amounted to lifelong guesting. Is Bilbo a freeloader? <g> I would
>assume that the ancient obligations of a host would be felt pretty keenly
>by Elrond. Tolkien's world is one where duties like that are taken
>seriously. And Rivendell was founded as a refuge. But still, Elrond
>bends over backwards for Bilbo even before anyone knows about the Ring.
Yes, Bilbo is a freeloader. What hobbit wouldn't be, given the
chance? :-)
I always guessed that Elrond regarded him as a sort of mascot, not
really a "court jester" but there because the Elves enjoyed his
company. He did seem an awfully likeable cuss.