Chapter of the Week - The Hobbit - Chapter 15 - The Gathering of the Clouds
AC
Chapter 15: The Gathering of the Clouds
To check out the other Chapters of the Week or to sign up to do a chapter of
your own, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org
I. Synopsis
-----------
While great and terrible deeds ensue in Esgaroth, Thorin and Co., still
fearing the return of the dragon, remain in the guard house. Here they
again encounter the thrush which tries to tell them of the news, but as no
one can understand him, calls upon one Roac son of Caroc, of the race of
ravens that were friendly to the Dwarves. Caroc was a well-known and
respected raven among the folk of the Mountain, and it seems that these
ravens are able to talk.
Roac gives Thorin the tidings of Smaug's fall, which is cause for great joy
among the Dwaves. However, he also tells them that a host of Elves is on
its way to the Mountain, along with carrion birds looking forward to a
slaughter. As well, Roac tells the Dwarves that the Lakemen are looking for
compensation for their loss. Finally, Roac tells Thorin not to trust the
Master of Laketown, but rather to deal with Bard, descendant of Girion of
Dale, who shot the dragon.
Thorin, naturally, is greatly angered by this news. He asks Roac to send
out birds to his kin, and especially to Dain in the Iron Mountains. Roac
promises to do what he can, and then the Dwarves hightail it back to the
Mountain.
In an impressive demonstration of Dwarvish skill, they barricade the Front
Gate with a wall of squared stones and rechannel the gate stream so that it
forms a wide pool. All the while, the ravens bring back tidings, and even
guide them to the lost ponies, thus giving them much-needed supplies.
Finally, the great company of Lakemen and Elves arrive. A few, including
Elvish bowmen, are sent up, but will not speak with Thorin. Later there is
much singing in the camp of Elves and Men, and a bit of a musical duel
ensues, with the Dwarves singing what Bilbo considers an overly war-like
song.
Th e next morning, another company comes from the camp, lead by Bard. Bard
attempts to parley with Thorin, to try to prove to him that it is only just
that the Dwarves give of their newly won treasure to aid the people of
Esgaroth, particularly since the Dwarves were so instrumental in that
devestation. Naturally, Thorin refuses, and demands that the Elves be sent
away, and that any further discussion only occur once weapons have been put
down. Bard departs, asking Thorin to take the wise path.
A little later banner-beares and trumpeters return and deliver Bard's
demand; one-twelfth of the treasure of the Mountain, out of which Bard will
see to the needs of Esgaroth. They also suggest that Thorin give of his own
hand, to show his goodwill. Thorin really loses it now, and as answer fires
an arrow the speaker, which hits his shield. The speaker announces that the
Mountain is besieged. The Dwarves generally share Thorin's mood, but Bilbo
is quite obviously unhappy.
II. Points of Interest
----------------------
1. We see another example of speaking animals. This time, it is the ravens
of the Lonely Mountain, who are capable of speach! Any thoughts on the
nature of this amazing ability?
2. We see an example of the skill of Dwarves. If, in a few short days, a
large wall can be constructed and a stream fashioned into a large pool, and
by just thirteen Dwarves, imagine what hundreds or thousands could do.
3. "But also he [Bilbo] did not reckon with the power that gold has upon
which a dragon has long brooded..." It's pretty clear that some Dragon's
curse is upon the gold. A reflection of the tale of the Nauglamir, perhaps?
If anyone has any other points, please contribute! I'm out of time, as it
is my lunchbreak. And please forgive any spelling or grammatical errors. I
did this in a rather big hurry.
--
Aaron Clausen
tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
Steuard Jensen
Hello all! Michelle Haines just emailed me to ask that I post her
Chapter 15 synopsis for her: as you know, she's in the process of
moving, so she's been out of touch for a little while. So yeah, two
competing chapter summaries this time; perhaps that will lead to an
especially vibrant discussion. :) Her message follows.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michelle Haines <mha...@io.nanc.com>
To: ste...@slimy.com
Subject: Chapter Fifteen synopsis
I'm supposed to post the Chapter 15 synopsis, but my computer hasn't been
moved yet (and I only unearthed my copy of The Hobbit last night!). So,
I'm emailing it to you for posting to the newsgroup, if you don't mind.
After the dramatic death of the dragon, we come back to the Dwarves and
Bilbo kicking their heels at the Mountain. Flocks of all kids of birds
are gathering, so they have an indication that something is coming, but
they have no idea what.
Balin, apparently, speaks Bird fluently -- or, at least, Crow and Raven.
He has trouble with Thrush, so asks for help from Bilbo, who covers his
ignorance by saying he can't quite make it out. Personally, I might have
made a snarky comment about him wondering why I can speak a birdie
language when I don't have feathers or a beak. I'm also reminded of the
whale talking scene in Finding Nemo, "That doesn't sound like whale, it
sounds like upset stomach!" But I digress.
At any rate, during the conversation of the Dwarves and Bilbo, the thrush
discerns they're familiar with the father of the current chief of the
ravens, so flies off to bring him over. This particular raven is 153
years old and speak English! That's some bird.
At any rate, the old guy gives them the news that the dragon is dead,
Laketown is destroyed, and the Elves and Men are on their way to claim
some of the treasure. Thorin is less than please at the news, so the
Dwarves set to work building a wall around the Front Gate.
The Elves and Men reach Dale during one evening, but no one approaches
until the next morning. A force comes up, looks the place over, but when
Thorin speaks to them they hurry off without saying a word in return. How
rude. The camp is moved to a different place in the arms of the Mountain,
and there's no more conversation until the next day.
Bard comes up with a host of spearmen and asks to speak with Thorin. He
lays out his case pretty plainly -- He killed the dragon while he was
attacking the town, which is devastated. Some of the treasure rightfully
belongs to him anyway, since it was from Dale rather than originally
belonging to the Dwarves. He also points out that the men of Laketown
assisted the Dwarves, which is why their town was destroyed in the first
place.
Thorin is not in a good mood. He dismisses the third claim entirely,
saying he doesn't owe anyone anything for the deeds of the dragon. He
grudgingly agrees that they should pay the price of the goods they were
given, but when he feels like it. He ignores both the claim Bard has by
killing the dragon, and the fact that some of the treasure rightfully
belongs to him in the first place. He's somewhat justified in his point
that standing outside the gates with spears isn't exactly a peaceful
gesture either, but doesn't really suggest a reasonable treaty sight
either. He tells Bard to go away before Thorin decides to shoot him.
Nice guy, Thorin.
Heralds come up, blow a horn, and state the demands are 1/12 part of the
treasure or be declared the foes of the Men and Elves that are there.
Thorin shoots an arrow at the herald by way of answer.
All the Dwarves support Thorin, although Fili, Kili, and Bombur
disapprove somewhat. Bilbo, of course, is entirely disgruntled.
This is a pretty straight-forward chapter, so there's not much in the way
of questions. Here's a few:
Is it a common Dwarf ability to speak to birds?
Why are all the clouds of finches and thrushes gathering? The carrion
birds might make sense, but it just seems odd for the rest of them to be
there.
Bard's claims seem entirely justified, but Thorin refuses to consider
them at all. It seems he's been brooding over his lost treasure so long
that any way he regained it is justifiable, and he's not turning ov er so
much as a penny to anyone until he's good and ready. You'd think he could
have at least said "Thank you." to Bard for killing the dragon!
That's all I have to add at the moment.
Michelle
Flutist
AC
Steuard Jensen <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> Hello all! Michelle Haines just emailed me to ask that I post her
> Chapter 15 synopsis for her: as you know, she's in the process of
> moving, so she's been out of touch for a little while. So yeah, two
> competing chapter summaries this time; perhaps that will lead to an
> especially vibrant discussion. :) Her message follows.
Sorry for jumping the gun.
<snip>
> Is it a common Dwarf ability to speak to birds?
I think it was more likey the ravens' ability to speak to Dwarves.
>
> Why are all the clouds of finches and thrushes gathering? The carrion
> birds might make sense, but it just seems odd for the rest of them to be
> there.
Spectators?
>
> Bard's claims seem entirely justified, but Thorin refuses to consider
> them at all. It seems he's been brooding over his lost treasure so long
> that any way he regained it is justifiable, and he's not turning ov er so
> much as a penny to anyone until he's good and ready. You'd think he could
> have at least said "Thank you." to Bard for killing the dragon!
Thorin definitely needs to grow. In a way, however, I can see Thorin's
point as well. The Elves had treated him badly, and further humiliation by
the Elf King didn't seem right. As well, having an army at your doorstep,
while there are just thirteen Dwarves and one Hobbit doesn't exactly seem
like parleying to me.
Henriette
> Chapter 15: The Gathering of the Clouds
>
> (snip) As well, Roac tells the Dwarves that the Lakemen are looking for
> compensation for their loss. Finally, Roac tells Thorin not to trust the
> Master of Laketown, but rather to deal with Bard, descendant of Girion of
> Dale, who shot the dragon.
>
> Thorin, naturally, is greatly angered by this news.
Do you mean that, "naturally", AC? You probably do, because you repeat
it later in the summary:
> (snip) Bard
> attempts to parley with Thorin, to try to prove to him that it is only just
> that the Dwarves give of their newly won treasure to aid the people of
> Esgaroth, particularly since the Dwarves were so instrumental in that
> devestation. Naturally, Thorin refuses, and demands that the Elves be sent
Or maybe you mean: it is natural, knowing Thorin? Or do you mean,
naturally Thorin refuses these absurd demands? Anyway, I am on Bard's
side and think it is only natural Thorin should pay.
> 1. We see another example of speaking animals. This time, it is the ravens
> of the Lonely Mountain, who are capable of speach! Any thoughts on the
> nature of this amazing ability?
Maybe it is more amazing that so very few people understand them.
(ducks)
>
> 3. "But also he [Bilbo] did not reckon with the power that gold has upon
> which a dragon has long brooded..." It's pretty clear that some Dragon's
> curse is upon the gold. A reflection of the tale of the Nauglamir, perhaps?
That is an interesting conclusion, that our Professor is referring to
a curse. Actually I had been thinking thus far, that JRRT had been
writing "upon which a dragon has long brooded" with a wink to the
reader. Yet you may be right!
>
> If anyone has any other points, please contribute! I'm out of time, as it
> is my lunchbreak. And please forgive any spelling or grammatical errors. I
> did this in a rather big hurry.
Thank you AC, for keeping up the good work! I just saw Michelle has
also posted a chapter, well, better 2 than none.
I do have two more points. One is the unusual and
not-very-English-sounding name of Roäc. Does anyone have any
associations with this name or any knowledge about where it may come
from?
The other point is that the somewhat oldfashioned speaking Roäc says
"a hundred years and three and fifty". To my everlasting amazement
both the Dutch and the Germans do say three and fifty instead of the
more logical fifty three. We have discussed this on AFT before, but it
did not come up if maybe there has been a time in English history,
when it was also normal to say three and fifty.
Henriette
Henriette
(snip)
>
> Balin, apparently, speaks Bird fluently -- or, at least, Crow and Raven.
> He has trouble with Thrush,
LOL
>
Nice summary Michelle, thank you!
>
> Bard's claims seem entirely justified, but Thorin refuses to consider
> them at all. It seems he's been brooding over his lost treasure so long
> that any way he regained it is justifiable, and he's not turning ov er so
> much as a penny to anyone until he's good and ready. You'd think he could
> have at least said "Thank you." to Bard for killing the dragon!
>
Yes. Thorin's behaviour does not comply at all with my feelings about
what Justice is either!
Good luck in your new house!
Henriette
Hasmonean Tazmanian
Henriette wrote:
>>From: Michelle Haines <mha...@io.nanc.com>
>
> (snip)
>
>>
>>Balin, apparently, speaks Bird fluently -- or, at least, Crow and Raven.
>>He has trouble with Thrush,
>
>
> LOL
>
> Nice summary Michelle, thank you!
>
>>Bard's claims seem entirely justified, but Thorin refuses to consider
>>them at all. It seems he's been brooding over his lost treasure so long
>>that any way he regained it is justifiable, and he's not turning ov er so
>>much as a penny to anyone until he's good and ready. You'd think he could
>>have at least said "Thank you." to Bard for killing the dragon!
>>
>
It's the old "I won't be forced to negotiate, until the violence stops"
line. Thorin was being arrogant.
Hasan
Odysseus
>
> The other point is that the somewhat oldfashioned speaking Roäc says
> "a hundred years and three and fifty". To my everlasting amazement
> both the Dutch and the Germans do say three and fifty instead of the
> more logical fifty three. We have discussed this on AFT before, but it
> did not come up if maybe there has been a time in English history,
> when it was also normal to say three and fifty.
>
blackbirds / Baked in a pie ..." -- traditional nursery rhyme
--
Odysseus
Emma Pease
> AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:<slrnbtka5k.37s....@alder.alberni.net>...
>
>> Chapter 15: The Gathering of the Clouds
[snip]
> The other point is that the somewhat oldfashioned speaking Roäc says
> "a hundred years and three and fifty". To my everlasting amazement
> both the Dutch and the Germans do say three and fifty instead of the
> more logical fifty three. We have discussed this on AFT before, but it
> did not come up if maybe there has been a time in English history,
> when it was also normal to say three and fifty.
four-and-twenty blackbirds baked in a pie.
For that matter fourteen can be seen as a shortening of four-and-ten
Linkname: Re: Number names, 11 - 19
URL: http://www.linguistlist.org/~ask-ling/archive-1999.1/msg00074.html
The King James translation of the Bible also has a few examples, e.g.,
2Sam.21
[20] And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great
stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six
toes, FOUR AND TWENTY in number; and he also was born to the giant.
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Pete Gray
>I do have two more points. One is the unusual and
>not-very-English-sounding name of Roäc. Does anyone have any
>associations with this name or any knowledge about where it may come
>from?
>
I suspect the names are meant to resemble the sound a raven makes
(both Roac and Carc)
>The other point is that the somewhat oldfashioned speaking Roäc says
>"a hundred years and three and fifty". To my everlasting amazement
>both the Dutch and the Germans do say three and fifty instead of the
>more logical fifty three. We have discussed this on AFT before, but it
>did not come up if maybe there has been a time in English history,
>when it was also normal to say three and fifty.
>
It certainly would sound somewhat archaic in everyday speech, but is
not unheard of, for example in the nursery rhyme:
'Sing a song of sixpence, a pocketful of rye
Four and twenty blackbirds, baked in a pie'
It's also found in the King James bible. According to this page:
<http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/lab/nlp/polylex/polynode16.html> the
change from 'units and tens' to 'tens-units' began around 1500,
influenced by French usage.
--
Pete Gray
while ($cat!="home"){$mice=="play";}
Bill O'Meally
"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be50318e.03121...@posting.google.com...
> AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:<slrnbtka5k.37s....@alder.alberni.net>...
> > 1. We see another example of speaking animals. This time, it is the
ravens
> > of the Lonely Mountain, who are capable of speach! Any thoughts on
the
> > nature of this amazing ability?
>
> Maybe it is more amazing that so very few people understand them.
> (ducks)
No mention of waterfowl in this chapter, just ravens, crows and the
thrush. <g>
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
AC
> AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:<slrnbtka5k.37s....@alder.alberni.net>...
>
>> Chapter 15: The Gathering of the Clouds
>>
>> (snip) As well, Roac tells the Dwarves that the Lakemen are looking for
>> compensation for their loss. Finally, Roac tells Thorin not to trust the
>> Master of Laketown, but rather to deal with Bard, descendant of Girion of
>> Dale, who shot the dragon.
>>
>> Thorin, naturally, is greatly angered by this news.
>
> Do you mean that, "naturally", AC? You probably do, because you repeat
> it later in the summary:
>
>> (snip) Bard
>> attempts to parley with Thorin, to try to prove to him that it is only just
>> that the Dwarves give of their newly won treasure to aid the people of
>> Esgaroth, particularly since the Dwarves were so instrumental in that
>> devestation. Naturally, Thorin refuses, and demands that the Elves be sent
>
> Or maybe you mean: it is natural, knowing Thorin? Or do you mean,
> naturally Thorin refuses these absurd demands? Anyway, I am on Bard's
> side and think it is only natural Thorin should pay.
Sorry. I meant naturally, knowing Thorin. Thorin's attitude certainly
wasn't reasonable, though I couldn't imagine him behaving any other way.
Stan Brown
>To my everlasting amazement
>both the Dutch and the Germans do say three and fifty instead of the
>more logical fifty three.
Why on earth do you think "three and fifty" is any less logical than
"fifty three"?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
Henriette
>
> Why on earth do you think "three and fifty" is any less logical than
> "fifty three"?
>
not make sense to you at first sight?
It is logical to me to start with the most important things first. In
mathematics we are talking quantity, not quality. So tens before
units.
It is also very unpractical when writing. I once had a temporary job
in which I had to type numbers which were said to me throught the
phone in Dutch and in English. When they were said in English, I could
type while they talked. When they were said in Dutch, I had to wait
until the speaker was finished to know the last digit, hoping
meanwhile I remembered the other ones.
Henriette
Henriette
>
> Thorin's attitude certainly
> wasn't reasonable, though I couldn't imagine him behaving any other way.
It did surprise me, though. Because apart from the Dwarves' general
greediness, Thorin also has an atmosphere of grandeur, of nobility and
royalty surrounding him, which made me think he would behave
accordingly and not like Scrooge.
Henriette
Henriette
> On 13 Dec 2003 12:48:23 -0800, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
>
> >not-very-English-sounding name of Roäc. Does anyone have any
> >associations with this name or any knowledge about where it may come
> >from?
>
> I suspect the names are meant to resemble the sound a raven makes
> (both Roac and Carc)
>
> (snip)
> <http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/lab/nlp/polylex/polynode16.html> the
> change from 'units and tens' to 'tens-units' began around 1500,
> influenced by French usage.
Thank you and everyone who reacted to my numbers question. What you
write here, is something I have always been curious about. So actually
the practicality comes from the Roman languages and the British
peoples were clever enough to adopt the habit.
Henriette
Een Wilde Ier
I think "arrogance" is a good word to describe how Thorin combines those
qualities and failings. What do you think?
Stan Brown
>> Why on earth do you think "three and fifty" is any less logical than
>> "fifty three"?
>>
>Why would you start a question with: "Why on earth", if something does
>not make sense to you at first sight?
That _is_ why. "Why on earth" expresses quite a lot of surprise as
compared with a simple "why". I was surprised at your claim that
your _preference_ is a matter of logic.
>It is logical to me to start with the most important things first.
Oh, I understand now. That must mean that you write
-- all your dates with the year first, then the month, and
finally the day.[1]
-- locations with the country name first, then the state,
then the city, then the street, and then the number.
-- personal names family name first, then given name.
> In mathematics we are talking quantity, not quality. So tens before
>units.
This is language, not mathematics. There is no "logic" in language;
it's all custom. You might as well say that Scandinavians are
"illogical" because they don't capitalize the first person singular
pronoun -- and they could say we're "illogical" because we don't
capitalize the second person plural.
Please understand, I am not denying your right to prefer whatever
you may prefer. Just don't mislabel your preference as a matter of
logic.
[1] Actually this is an ISO standard. If everyone did it, people
would not have to figure out whether 2/11/03 was Feb 11, Nov 2, or
something else. Markus Kuhn has a good summary at
<http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-time.html>.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Modern cyberspace is a deadly festering swamp, teeming with
dangerous programs such as "viruses," "worms," "Trojan horses,"
and "licensed Microsoft software" that can take over your
computer and render it useless. --Dave Barry
Aris Katsaris
> In article <be50318e.03121...@posting.google.com> in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien, Henriette wrote:
> >Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> >> Why on earth do you think "three and fifty" is any less logical than
> >> "fifty three"?
> >>
> >Why would you start a question with: "Why on earth", if something does
> >not make sense to you at first sight?
>
> That _is_ why. "Why on earth" expresses quite a lot of surprise as
> compared with a simple "why". I was surprised at your claim that
> your _preference_ is a matter of logic.
>
> >It is logical to me to start with the most important things first.
>
> Oh, I understand now. That must mean that you write
>
> -- all your dates with the year first, then the month, and
> finally the day.[1]
In that case it's the opposite for me because day/month/year,
provides the actual bit of rapidly changing information, while
the other two can remain more constant, and need only be
added if there's a problem of ambiguity.
Thus, I can arrange with my friends to go somewhere on the 21st,
and if there's a problem of ambiguity you write 21/12, and if there's
a further problem of ambiguity you write 21/12/2003.
> -- locations with the country name first, then the state,
> then the city, then the street, and then the number.
Again doesn't apply, when people live in the same city, same way
that they exist within the same month -- in that case the crucial bit
of information is the one that *cannot* be understood from context.
> -- personal names family name first, then given name.
*g* That's how I write it on official documents. Day-to-day interaction
are different ofcourse, and naming conventions do *tend* to be a
matter of custom.
> > In mathematics we are talking quantity, not quality. So tens before
> >units.
>
> This is language, not mathematics. There is no "logic" in language;
> it's all custom.
Some languages are more illogical in some respects than others...
e.g. Esperanto and Ido are profoundly logical languages because
they were created to be so.
> Please understand, I am not denying your right to prefer whatever
> you may prefer. Just don't mislabel your preference as a matter of
> logic.
But sometimes preference *is* a matter of logic and sometimes one
*does* prefer something because it's more logical :-)
Aris Katsaris
Yuk Tang
news:bri5o1$mts$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr:
> Thus, I can arrange with my friends to go somewhere on the 21st,
> and if there's a problem of ambiguity you write 21/12, and if
> there's a further problem of ambiguity you write 21/12/2003.
And in English, to avoid any ambiguity I write 21st Dec(ember) (20)03.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com
Een Wilde Ier
> "Aris Katsaris" <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote in
> news:bri5o1$mts$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr:
>
>>Thus, I can arrange with my friends to go somewhere on the 21st,
>>and if there's a problem of ambiguity you write 21/12, and if
>>there's a further problem of ambiguity you write 21/12/2003.
>
>
> And in English, to avoid any ambiguity I write 21st Dec(ember) (20)03.
I personally make a point of writing out the full date (both in work and
when doing stuff for college etc.) to avoid any of the inevitable
ambiguity or confusion which will otherwise occur.
Numbering files (letters, drawings etc.) I write the year first, then
the month and then the date.
AC
Like I said, I'm not entirely against how Thorin acted. The other side
brought along a pretty good force, including Wood Elves who had very
recently imprisoned Thorin and Co., treating them badly (worse, for
instance, then how they treated Gollum a number of years later). It seems
to me that Bard was trying to overawe Thorin, and perhaps if Bard had been
just the tiniest bit wiser, he might have tried a more tactful, less overtly
threatening form of diplomacy.
"Oh yeah, I just want to parley. Me and this big army behind me."
Henriette
> > (ducks)
>
> No mention of waterfowl in this chapter, just ravens, crows and the
> thrush. <g>
:-)
Henriette
Igenlode Wordsmith
[aren't these threads supposed to be cross-posted?]
On 12 Dec 2003 AC wrote:
[snip]
>
> 1. We see another example of speaking animals. This time, it is the ravens
> of the Lonely Mountain, who are capable of speech! Any thoughts on the
> nature of this amazing ability?
Corvids, even in the 'real' world, are great mimics, as well as being
famed for their long life and intelligence, and I believe ravens can be
taught to speak after the same fashion as parrots. I assumed this
passage referred to that ability - if you were writing a fairy story
and wished to introduce a plausible interpreter between the languages
of men and beasts, a wise old raven or an ex-pet parrot would come to
mind sooner than, say, a talking elephant or cow :-)
>
> 2. We see an example of the skill of Dwarves. If, in a few short days, a
> large wall can be constructed and a stream fashioned into a large pool, and
> by just thirteen Dwarves, imagine what hundreds or thousands could do.
>
> 3. "But also he [Bilbo] did not reckon with the power that gold has upon
> which a dragon has long brooded..." It's pretty clear that some Dragon's
> curse is upon the gold. A reflection of the tale of the Nauglamir, perhaps?
>
Reminds me of "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader", where Eustace goes to
sleep by accident on a dragon's hoard and suffers most untoward
side-effects; although in that case we are told that the cause is that
he was already thinking dragonish thoughts, rather than that, as in
Thorin's case, the dragonish thoughts are caused by possession itself
of the hoard. Thorin's reaction to being asked to give up a little of
his suddenly-acquired wealth (which after all, he has done nothing at
all to earn - it was only Bard's action that saved his life, else they
would have all died of thirst in the Mountain or been slain by the
dragon in trying to get out) reminds me strongly to Smaug's reaction to
the loss of one cup which he could not use.
> If anyone has any other points, please contribute!
The comment that Bilbo "would have given up most of his share of the
profits for the peaceful winding up of these affairs" looks like a
pretty explicit piece of foreshadowing to me :-)
Finally, the description of the Dwarves' fortification of the main
entrance reminded me of the description of Helm's Deep much later,
especially the business about the stream. I suppose natural caves tend
to have water flowing out of them, and walling off the entrance without
choking up the egress of the stream is a perpetual problem; but I did
wonder if Tolkien had seen some specific fortified cave containing this
feature somewhere, and was recalling it in both cases.
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Lurker Extraordinaire
When men are jaded in their emotions they demand monstrous things to arouse them
Igenlode Wordsmith
> From: Michelle Haines <mha...@io.nanc.com>
> Subject: Chapter Fifteen synopsis
[snip]
> Why are all the clouds of finches and thrushes gathering? The carrion
> birds might make sense, but it just seems odd for the rest of them to be
> there.
Some of them, apparently, were passing messages to the Elven-king in
the previous chapter - "news from his own messengers and the birds that
loved his folk". But I think the idea is simply that the overthrow of
Smaug was of great significance for all living things (affected the
ecosystem, if you prefer!) and that the birds, being mobile, were
returning from far and wide to see what was going on and if it was safe
to come back. "Very great indeed was the commotion among all things with
wings that dwelt on the borders of the Desolation of the Dragon... The
birds are gathering back again to the mountain". It's interesting to
note Thorin referring casually to the phenomenon of migration: "the
time is gone for the autumn wanderings" :-)
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Lurker Extraordinaire
* He who loses his temper has lost the argument *
Stan Brown
>In that case it's the opposite for me because day/month/year,
>provides the actual bit of rapidly changing information, while
>the other two can remain more constant, and need only be
>added if there's a problem of ambiguity.
That was my point, Aris. Henriette claimed that "biggest first" was
a matter of _logic_, and I posted three counterexamples.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Stan Brown
>Reminds me of "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader", where Eustace goes to
>sleep by accident on a dragon's hoard and suffers most untoward
>side-effects; although in that case we are told that the cause is that
>he was already thinking dragonish thoughts, rather than that, as in
>Thorin's case, the dragonish thoughts are caused by possession itself
>of the hoard.
This is actually a good example, but I want to go in a little bit
different direction from you.
Thorin & Co. weren't thinking "dragonish" thoughts exactly, but all
Dwarves have a greed for gold; it's part of their nature. So the
dragon-hoard would have played on their natural propensities, just
as happened to Eustace.
Compare with the lovely Japanese film /Spirited Away/. The little
girl's parents eat like pigs, and when they awake from their
postprandial nap they find they have become pigs.
Troels Forchhammer
Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
>
<snip>
> The other point is that the somewhat oldfashioned speaking Roäc says
> "a hundred years and three and fifty". To my everlasting amazement
> both the Dutch and the Germans do say three and fifty
[...]
As if that was something ;-)
In Danish it would be "a hundred and three and half-third times twenty
years" ;-)
But then our way of numbering the tens is absurd (based on 10 up to
fourty and from then on based on twenty).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk
Stan Brown
>In Danish it would be "a hundred and three and half-third times twenty
>years" ;-)
>But then our way of numbering the tens is absurd (based on 10 up to
>fourty and from then on based on twenty).
And "half two" on the clock means thirty minutes past one, doesn't
it? :-)
AC
Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> Compare with the lovely Japanese film /Spirited Away/. The little
> girl's parents eat like pigs, and when they awake from their
> postprandial nap they find they have become pigs.
To go nearly totally off-topic here, I have to say that Spirited Away may
very well be the finest fantasy film I've ever seen.
Yuk Tang
news:slrnbtro2c.234....@alder.alberni.net:
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>> Compare with the lovely Japanese film /Spirited Away/. The little
>> girl's parents eat like pigs, and when they awake from their
>> postprandial nap they find they have become pigs.
>
> To go nearly totally off-topic here, I have to say that Spirited
> Away may very well be the finest fantasy film I've ever seen.
Try reading Nausicaa by the same director/author. Completely different
thematically, but as good in its own way as the best of Tolkien. And
even if you don't like the story, the artwork is beautiful, every frame
hand-drawn by Miyazaki alone.
AC
It's been recommended to me by others on this newsgroup. I put it on my
Christmas list. Let's see if Santa's good to me :-)
(hopefully the jolly ol' elf will ignore some of my more severe outbursts
here)
Troels Forchhammer
>
> In article <STiDb.4833$g4.1...@news2.nokia.com> in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien, Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
>> In Danish it would be "a hundred and three and half-third times twenty
>> years" ;-)
>
> it? :-)
Yes. It's an old way of denoting half numbers using ordinals; half-third
meaning two and a half, half-seventh meaning six and a half etc.
When applied to the clock it is apt to cause quite some confusion when
Danes speak English. In 2000 my scout troop went to England for our
summercamp and we often got it an hour wrong when our hosts told us that
something would happen at "half X" ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times)
Pete Gray
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>In article <STiDb.4833$g4.1...@news2.nokia.com> in
>rec.arts.books.tolkien, Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>In Danish it would be "a hundred and three and half-third times twenty
>>years" ;-)
>>But then our way of numbering the tens is absurd (based on 10 up to
>>fourty and from then on based on twenty).
>
>And "half two" on the clock means thirty minutes past one, doesn't
>it? :-)
Not in German it doesn't ;-)
Pete Gray
...or weak enough to be influenced. Mere creatures of fashion, even
back then.
Kristian Damm Jensen
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> news:<MPG.1a45855ad...@news.odyssey.net>...
>>
>> Why on earth do you think "three and fifty" is any less logical
than
>> "fifty three"?
>>
> Why would you start a question with: "Why on earth", if something
does
> not make sense to you at first sight?
>
> It is logical to me to start with the most important things first.
In
> mathematics we are talking quantity, not quality. So tens before
> units.
Well, I agree with you. And I have done so ever since I discovered
languages that did not use the backward Danish (Dutch, German) way of
doing it. Much like I never understood why the British write the
number of the house *before* the name of the road.
--
Kristian Damm Jensen
damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
Kristian Damm Jensen
> [aren't these threads supposed to be cross-posted?]
>
> On 12 Dec 2003 AC wrote:
> if you were writing a fairy story
> and wished to introduce a plausible interpreter between the
languages
> of men and beasts, a wise old raven or an ex-pet parrot would come
to
> mind sooner than, say, a talking elephant or cow :-)
For a second there, I thought you had written ex-parrot, and had
horrible images of a blue and yellow and very stiff parrot in my mind.
Henriette
> >>From: Michelle Haines <mha...@io.nanc.com>
> >
> >>Bard's claims seem entirely justified, but Thorin refuses to consider
> >>them at all. It seems he's been brooding over his lost treasure so long
> >>that any way he regained it is justifiable, and he's not turning ov er so
> >>much as a penny to anyone until he's good and ready. You'd think he could
> >>have at least said "Thank you." to Bard for killing the dragon!
>
> It's the old "I won't be forced to negotiate, until the violence stops"
> line. Thorin was being arrogant.
>
When you put it that way, I suddenly see many parallel situations in
today's world...
Henriette
Henriette
Name it as you will, you yourself probably being British! One probably
has to have worked with numbers like "nine and twenty hundred eight
and fifty" (to take a relatively simple one) all her life, to be
thoroughly aware how unpractical and confusing it is.
Henriette
Henriette
> Henriette wrote:
>
> > It did surprise me, though. Because apart from the Dwarves' general
> > greediness, Thorin also has an atmosphere of grandeur, of nobility and
> > royalty surrounding him, which made me think he would behave
> > accordingly and not like Scrooge.
>
> I think "arrogance" is a good word to describe how Thorin combines those
> qualities and failings. What do you think?
Hi Wilde Ier, WB!
I'd prefer to call it unwise, a behaviour I would not want from a
king. It proves, why hereditary monarchie is nonsensical.
Henriette
Henriette
>
> Like I said, I'm not entirely against how Thorin acted. The other side
> brought along a pretty good force, including Wood Elves who had very
> recently imprisoned Thorin and Co., treating them badly (worse, for
> instance, then how they treated Gollum a number of years later). It seems
> to me that Bard was trying to overawe Thorin, and perhaps if Bard had been
> just the tiniest bit wiser, he might have tried a more tactful, less overtly
> threatening form of diplomacy.
>
> "Oh yeah, I just want to parley. Me and this big army behind me."
I have the feeling that in the course of time JRRT had the Wood Elves
evolve into a better people.
As for Bard, no, I do not think he has to be the wiser. He is a
warrior, at least for now and besides that, he already had the great
merits of keeping up the spirits of Lake-town during the battle and
the shooting of Smaug at great personal risk. Thorin is a king. He has
to be the wiser. Also, I think the claims are very reasonable.
Henriette
Henriette
>
> But sometimes preference *is* a matter of logic and sometimes one
> *does* prefer something because it's more logical :-)
>
Henriette
Henriette
It does actually, in German and Dutch.
Henriette
Henriette
> in <be50318e.03121...@posting.google.com>,
>
> In Danish it would be "a hundred and three and half-third times twenty
> years" ;-)
> But then our way of numbering the tens is absurd (based on 10 up to
> fourty and from then on based on twenty).
LOL. Yes, I almost forgot your silly lot:-) Makes me almost be at
peace with *our* counting system.
Henriette
Troels Forchhammer
<snip>
> One probably has to have worked with numbers like "nine and twenty
> hundred eight and fifty" (to take a relatively simple one) all her
> life, to be thoroughly aware how unpractical and confusing it is.
Hear! Hear!
It is quite common to switch the digits in e.g. phone numbers (Danish
phone numbers are eight digits which are usually read as four
two-digit numbers - each of them of the "three and fifty" variety)
Having then finally learned to note these down correctly (most of the
time, anyway) we start having to use English numbering (in English
lessons in school) at which point many kids throw their hands up in
exasperation ;-)
Add to this that the long names for the tens (such as "three times
twenty" = "tre sinde tyve") is usually shortened so that only the
initial 's' of the old word for times ("sinde") is retained - sixty
becomes something like "threes" ("tres") and eighty becomes "fours"
("firs"); the potential for confusion is huge.
I would certainly prefer the English (or even better, Swedish -
thirty is simply "treti" - "three-ten") way of pronouncing the
numbers.
AC
> AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:<slrnbtp7r7.2fk....@alder.alberni.net>...
>>
>> Like I said, I'm not entirely against how Thorin acted. The other side
>> brought along a pretty good force, including Wood Elves who had very
>> recently imprisoned Thorin and Co., treating them badly (worse, for
>> instance, then how they treated Gollum a number of years later). It seems
>> to me that Bard was trying to overawe Thorin, and perhaps if Bard had been
>> just the tiniest bit wiser, he might have tried a more tactful, less overtly
>> threatening form of diplomacy.
>>
>> "Oh yeah, I just want to parley. Me and this big army behind me."
>
> I have the feeling that in the course of time JRRT had the Wood Elves
> evolve into a better people.
If Bilbo's account of it is to believed (not to mention Gloin's reaction
years later at the Council to the news of how Gollum was treated), it seems
to me that the Wood Elves did mistreat Thorin and Co.
>
> As for Bard, no, I do not think he has to be the wiser. He is a
> warrior, at least for now and besides that, he already had the great
> merits of keeping up the spirits of Lake-town during the battle and
> the shooting of Smaug at great personal risk. Thorin is a king. He has
> to be the wiser. Also, I think the claims are very reasonable.
I'm not saying the claims are unreasonable. Of course they were eminently
reasonable. The folk of Lake-town had treated the Dwarves very well, and
had suffered terribly for it.
However, in the interests of tact and diplomacy, marching an army to the
Lonely Mountain, an army which included people that had been very unkind to
the Dwarves, and then speaking of a parley seemed a tad over the top and
aggressive.
Huan the hound
[snip]
> I would certainly prefer the English (or even better, Swedish -
> thirty is simply "treti" - "three-ten") way of pronouncing the
> numbers.
>
Then you'd also like Mandarin: san shi is three ten.
--
Huan, the hound of Valinor
Pete Gray
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>in <be50318e.03121...@posting.google.com>,
>Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
>>
>
><snip>
>
>> One probably has to have worked with numbers like "nine and twenty
>> hundred eight and fifty" (to take a relatively simple one) all her
>> life, to be thoroughly aware how unpractical and confusing it is.
>
You don't have thousands? Two thousand, nine hundred, eight and fifty
is not as bad.
>Hear! Hear!
>
>It is quite common to switch the digits in e.g. phone numbers (Danish
>phone numbers are eight digits which are usually read as four
>two-digit numbers - each of them of the "three and fifty" variety)
>
Ah, but we don't say telephone numbers like that -- we just give the
name of each individual digit, grouped in threes or twos, eg:
01620 828203: Oh-one six-two-oh eight-two-eight two-oh-three
0131 229 7465: Oh-one three-one two-two-nine seven-four six-five
After all why would one say a phone number, which is just a string of
digits, as if it were an actual number, representing a quantity?
>Having then finally learned to note these down correctly (most of the
>time, anyway) we start having to use English numbering (in English
>lessons in school) at which point many kids throw their hands up in
>exasperation ;-)
>
>Add to this that the long names for the tens (such as "three times
>twenty" = "tre sinde tyve") is usually shortened so that only the
>initial 's' of the old word for times ("sinde") is retained - sixty
>becomes something like "threes" ("tres") and eighty becomes "fours"
>("firs"); the potential for confusion is huge.
>
This twenty stuff is in English as well of course: three score and
ten, "Four score and seven years ago..."
>I would certainly prefer the English (or even better, Swedish -
>thirty is simply "treti" - "three-ten") way of pronouncing the
>numbers.
You will be assimilated ;-)
Pete Gray
But the whole address then moves from the most specific to the most
general: Person -> house -> street -> town -> county -> country.
Pete Gray
Indeed it does, and I knew that. Duh! I must have been having a
proof-reading meltdown. For reasons I can't explain I saw "half two"
and read "half one"! I need a lie down ;-)
Pete Gray
>Pete Gray <ne...@redbadge.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:<gkdstvo3o1mr665pc...@4ax.com>...
>> On 14 Dec 2003 03:20:03 -0800, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
>> >
>> >Thank you and everyone who reacted to my numbers question. What you
>> >write here, is something I have always been curious about. So actually
>> >the practicality comes from the Roman languages and the British
>> >peoples were clever enough to adopt the habit.
>> >
>> ...or weak enough to be influenced. Mere creatures of fashion, even
>> back then.
>
>Name it as you will, you yourself probably being British! One probably
Guilty as charged.
>has to have worked with numbers like "nine and twenty hundred eight
>and fifty" (to take a relatively simple one) all her life, to be
>thoroughly aware how unpractical and confusing it is.
>
>Henriette
It sounds horrid. Doesn't that make mathematics a nightmare for many?
Stan Brown
>If Bilbo's account of it is to believed (not to mention Gloin's reaction
>years later at the Council to the news of how Gollum was treated), it seems
>to me that the Wood Elves did mistreat Thorin and Co.
Really? They had adequate food, they were not chained but merely
locked in cells, they were not tortured in any way. In other words,
they were treated exactly as a material witness who refuses a
judge's direct order to talk.
In the legal phrase, "they had the keys" -- they could have got out
any time, simply by telling the King what he wanted to know.
Seems to me Thranduil was well within his rights: strangers were
wandering in his realm, and would give no good account of
themselves. By the standards of the time he treated them very well.
If you say that the Wood-elves treated Gollum better, I don't
disagree (and neither did Legolas). But that doesn't mean that
Thorin and Company were mistreated.
Odysseus
>
> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:00:18 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >It is quite common to switch the digits in e.g. phone numbers (Danish
> >phone numbers are eight digits which are usually read as four
> >two-digit numbers - each of them of the "three and fifty" variety)
>
> Ah, but we don't say telephone numbers like that -- we just give the
> name of each individual digit, grouped in threes or twos, eg:
>
> 01620 828203: Oh-one six-two-oh eight-two-eight two-oh-three
> 0131 229 7465: Oh-one three-one two-two-nine seven-four six-five
>
> After all why would one say a phone number, which is just a string of
> digits, as if it were an actual number, representing a quantity?
>
words: here all phone numbers have the form XXX-XXXX, and it's quite
common to hear the last four spoken as a pair of two-digit numbers,
e.g. "twelve thirty-four" instead of "one two three four". I don't
know why.
A curious case where this tendency can be misleading is in the
nomeclature of survey roads in the western parts of Canada and the
US. "Range Road 223" means "the third section road in Range 22", and
therefore runs three miles east of R.R. 220, but one often hears the
number spoken "two twenty-three", concealing the implicit
navigational aid.
>
> This twenty stuff is in English as well of course: three score and
> ten, "Four score and seven years ago..."
>
French is another language retaining traces of counting by 20s: its
80 is "four twenties", and (except in Switzerland) its 70, 90 & 96
(e.g.) are respectively "sixty-ten", "eighty (four twenties)-ten", & "eighty-sixteen".
--
Odysseus
Stan Brown
>rench is another language retaining traces of counting by 20s: its
>80 is "four twenties", and (except in Switzerland) its 70, 90 & 96
>(e.g.) are respectively "sixty-ten", "eighty (four twenties)-ten", & "eighty-sixteen".
What are they in Switzerland? "Septante" and "Neuvante"?
Een Wilde Ier
There's only one proven solution to a hereditary monarchy...
Henriette
>
> There's only one proven solution to a hereditary monarchy...
What? Uninstall it?
Henriette
Henriette
> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:00:18 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> >in <be50318e.03121...@posting.google.com>,
> >Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
> >
> >> hundred eight and fifty" (to take a relatively simple one) all her
>
> You don't have thousands? Two thousand, nine hundred, eight and fifty
> is not as bad.
If you would say that in NL, everyone would understand, but they would
quickly exchange glances and mimick behind your back, suggesting you
must be a half-wit:-)
>
> >It is quite common to switch the digits in e.g. phone numbers (Danish
> >phone numbers are eight digits which are usually read as four
> >two-digit numbers - each of them of the "three and fifty" variety)
>
> Ah, but we don't say telephone numbers like that -- we just give the
> name of each individual digit, grouped in threes or twos, eg:
>
> 01620 828203: Oh-one six-two-oh eight-two-eight two-oh-three
> 0131 229 7465: Oh-one three-one two-two-nine seven-four six-five
>
We do both. Reading phone numbers in individual digits, in grouped
digits (which I believe, is slowly slowly turning somewhat
old-fashioned) or in a combination of both. E.G. in Pete's first
example I would say (in Dutch):
Oh sixteen twenty, eight-two-eight two-oh-three.
Henriette
Henriette
> >
> French is another language retaining traces of counting by 20s: its
> 80 is "four twenties", and (except in Switzerland) its 70, 90 & 96
> (e.g.) are respectively "sixty-ten", "eighty (four twenties)-ten", & "eighty-sixteen".
quatre-vingt-dix for ninety. The French must be related to the Danish,
and I feel more and more comfortable with our "eight-and-fifty"!
Henriette
Henriette
> >and fifty" (to take a relatively simple one) all her life, to be
> >thoroughly aware how unpractical and confusing it is.
> >
It trains our perseverence in combination with all the languages we
have to learn:-) If your IQ is even slightly above average you have to
learn German, French and English besides Dutch, for at least several
years. Spanish is added in some schools, and then you are encouraged
to also pick up Italian. If your IQ is way above average, you have to
learn Greek and Latin as well and you can choose a high school where
part of the lessons are given in either English or Spanish.
Henriette
Henriette
>
> I'm not saying the claims are unreasonable. Of course they were eminently
> reasonable. The folk of Lake-town had treated the Dwarves very well, and
> had suffered terribly for it.
>
> However, in the interests of tact and diplomacy, marching an army to the
> Lonely Mountain, an army which included people that had been very unkind to
> the Dwarves, and then speaking of a parley seemed a tad over the top and
> aggressive.
I agree. But wouldn't it have been royal if Thorin had said something
like: In spite of, and not because of, your rather aggressive display
of power and the unjust treatment we received from the Wood-elves, I
find your claims reasonable and will give you your share and more. I
would have anyway, and it would have been nice if you had given me the
chance to offer it myself.
Henriette
Henriette
> >number of the house *before* the name of the road.
>
> But the whole address then moves from the most specific to the most
> general: Person -> house -> street -> town -> county -> country.
Thank you for explaining. I finally understand this funny habit:-)
Henriette
Henriette
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:08:10 -0500,
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> >
> > Compare with the lovely Japanese film /Spirited Away/. The little
> > girl's parents eat like pigs, and when they awake from their
> > postprandial nap they find they have become pigs.
>
> To go nearly totally off-topic here
Oops AC, what *are* you doing? :-)
Henriette
Jette Goldie
"Odysseus" <odysseu...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote
> >
> French is another language retaining traces of counting by 20s: its
> 80 is "four twenties", and (except in Switzerland) its 70, 90 & 96
> (e.g.) are respectively "sixty-ten", "eighty (four twenties)-ten", &
"eighty-sixteen".
And Belgium - the Waloons also have seperate words for
70, 80 and 90.
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Een Wilde Ier
At the neck ;-)
Jette Goldie
Well, it doesn't work for more than a generation, in the
experience of the UK.
Henriette
Well, it doesn't work for more than a generation, in the
experience of the UK.
In the experience of the UK it does not work for more than a
generation to uninstall the heriditary monarchy at the neck?
If you don't mind I have no idea what we are talking about here.....
Henriette
--
Jette Goldie
"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be50318e.03121...@posting.google.com...
King Charles I - of the Stuart dynasty. He was beheaded by
the orders of Parliament (accused of "treachery") and a
republic installed (called the "Commonwealth") under the
guidance of Oliver Cromwell.
Cromwell died, as men do, and Parliament then re-installed
the monarchy, with Charles II, son of Charles I - this period
was called "The Restoration" (naturally <g>) and Charles II
gained the nickname of "The Merry Monarch".
Een Wilde Ier
> "Een Wilde Ier" <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:brvslr$84v0i$2...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
>>Henriette wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Een Wilde Ier <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:<brqhmu$46401$3...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>>>There's only one proven solution to a hereditary monarchy...
>>>
>>>
>>>What? Uninstall it?
>>
>>At the neck ;-)
>>
>
>
> Well, it doesn't work for more than a generation, in the
> experience of the UK.
That's because ol' Crommie was a fraud, whose posthumous republican cred
is a sham...
Een Wilde Ier
<chop!>
Henriette
>
> King Charles I - of the Stuart dynasty. He was beheaded by
> the orders of Parliament (accused of "treachery") and a
> republic installed (called the "Commonwealth") under the
> guidance of Oliver Cromwell.
>
> Cromwell died, as men do, and Parliament then re-installed
> the monarchy, with Charles II, son of Charles I - this period
> was called "The Restoration" (naturally <g>) and Charles II
> gained the nickname of "The Merry Monarch".
Thank you, that is an interesting short story. Why was Charles II so
merry, apart from having regained his kingship? After all he did lose
his father in a horrible way.
Henriette
Henriette
> Henriette wrote:
>
> > In the experience of the UK it does not work for more than a
> > generation to uninstall the heriditary monarchy at the neck?
> >
> > If you don't mind I have no idea what we are talking about here.....
>
> <chop!>
Ow, chop!..... Well, that is an international sound allright. I did
not understand because I had no idea you would make such crude
remarks!
Henriette
Jette Goldie
His enviable list of mistresses, among other things <g>
During the reign of Charles II the theatre got quite a boost - many
very bawdy comedies date from this period. Women first started
to appear on stage as actors (previously female parts had been
played by men in drag) and these women got a ... bit of a reputation.
It was, all in all, a very "merry" period in British history. A brief
glance at the clothing of the period will tell you a lot - under
the Commonwealth, clothing was plain, mostly black and other
sombre colours, with little or no decoration - think of the "Puritans"
of the American founding colonies. During Charles II's reign
colourful rich fabrics, lace, acres of "decolletage", etc became
the fashion.
Charles II even pardoned most of the people responsible for his
father's death, endeavouring to create some kind of peace and
stability in his kingdom after his restoration.
Little known fact about Charles II - he was in fact crowned in
Scotland the day after his father's execution, before being
spirited away to France to live in exile until his recall to England
later. This was the last time the Scottish crown jewels were
used for an actual coronation, and they were hidden buried
in a large wooden box on an island in a loch for many years
after to prevent Cromwell from getting his hands on them
(they had to be smuggled out of Stirling castle by two women
when the castle was beseiged by Roundhead soldiers)
Een Wilde Ier
Crude? Most (all?) British monarchs have been a plague on their
neighbours (with the exception of William of Orange, who may have
actually been a decent human being - despite his fan following ;-)
Odysseus
>
[70, 90]
>
> What are they in Switzerland? "Septante" and "Neuvante"?
>
mentioned in passing in my French class, so I'm not certain.
--
Odysseus
Guillaume Criloux
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> a écrit :
>In article <3FDFCA87...@yahoo-dot.ca> in
>rec.arts.books.tolkien, Odysseus wrote:
>>rench is another language retaining traces of counting by 20s: its
>>80 is "four twenties", and (except in Switzerland) its 70, 90 & 96
>>(e.g.) are respectively "sixty-ten", "eighty (four twenties)-ten", & "eighty-sixteen".
>
>What are they in Switzerland? "Septante" and "Neuvante"?
Isn't it "Nonante" ?
Guillaume
Stan Brown
>Le Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:21:07 -0500, Stan Brown
><the_sta...@fastmail.fm> a écrit :
>
>Isn't it "Nonante" ?
Mercy bo-cups. :-)
Henriette
> Henriette wrote:
>
> > Ow, chop!..... Well, that is an international sound allright. I did
> > not understand because I had no idea you would make such crude
> > remarks!
>
> Crude? Most (all?) British monarchs have been a plague on their
> neighbours (with the exception of William of Orange, who may have
> actually been a decent human being - despite his fan following ;-)
Monarchs and Prime Ministers... I am sorry I cannot discuss the
situation in your homecountry with knowledge. Some of my friends have
passionate feelings about it though, and ofcourse we have a long
history of fighting the English. With a laywoman's knowlegde I can
only wonder why a neighbouring country can still get away with keeping
a part of a state occupied, but it can. We see it everywhere.
How about Charles II? From Jette's story in this thread he seems a
wise man.
Have you seen The Movie yet? I haven't, (whispers) but I will.
Henriette
Henriette
(snip)
> During the reign of Charles II the theatre got quite a boost - many
> very bawdy comedies date from this period. Women first started
> to appear on stage as actors (previously female parts had been
> played by men in drag) and these women got a ... bit of a reputation.
Same here, until quite recently.
(snip interesting story. Jette, do you write all this by heart? Amazing.)
> Charles II even pardoned most of the people responsible for his
> father's death, endeavouring to create some kind of peace and
> stability in his kingdom after his restoration.
>
Amazing! What is this, sheer wisdom or sheer opportunism?
(snip rest of interesting story. Keep on writing!)
Do you feel Lady Di has been murdered? Our papers were full of it today.
Henriette
Jette Goldie
news:<R%iFb.2676$4O2.24...@news-text.cableinet.net>...
>
> (snip)
> > During the reign of Charles II the theatre got quite a boost - many
> > very bawdy comedies date from this period. Women first started
> > to appear on stage as actors (previously female parts had been
> > played by men in drag) and these women got a ... bit of a reputation.
>
> Same here, until quite recently.
> (snip interesting story. Jette, do you write all this by heart? Amazing.)
Memory - I've a bit of a special interest in the Jacobite
period of history, and the situation with Charles II is
part of the foundation of it. Charles II had many children
by his mistresses, but none by his legal wife, so none were
legitimate heirs. He was succeeded by his younger brother
James (James VII of Scotland, James II of England) who had
converted to Roman Catholicism - which led to his ..... well,
which led to him in exile, his daughters Mary (with husband
William of Orange) and Anne inheriting - neither of whom
had surviving children and that led to George of Hanover
being chosen as Anne's heir, which led to the Uprisings....
>
> > Charles II even pardoned most of the people responsible for his
> > father's death, endeavouring to create some kind of peace and
> > stability in his kingdom after his restoration.
> >
> Amazing! What is this, sheer wisdom or sheer opportunism?
>
Probably a bit of both - he did have good advisors (and some
not so good).
> (snip rest of interesting story. Keep on writing!)
>
> Do you feel Lady Di has been murdered? Our papers were full of it today.
>
No.
Hasmonean Tazmanian
Henriette wrote:
> "Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in message news:<R%iFb.2676$4O2.24...@news-text.cableinet.net>...
>
> (snip)
>
>>During the reign of Charles II the theatre got quite a boost - many
>>very bawdy comedies date from this period. Women first started
>>to appear on stage as actors (previously female parts had been
>>played by men in drag) and these women got a ... bit of a reputation.
>
>
> Same here, until quite recently.
Speaking of bawdy comedy, Henriette did you ever hear of a Dutch TV show
called "Didi's comedy show" from around 1987? It was so roaringly funny
I couldn't stop laughing from the moment it started, until it ended. I
never heard anything of it again from the the time I last saw it. Do
you know anything about it? 'Rider Vallerhorden' (AFAIK) was the main
actor.
cheers,
Hasan
Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld
>
> Hello all! Michelle Haines just emailed me to ask that I post her
> Chapter 15 synopsis for her: as you know, she's in the process of
> moving, so she's been out of touch for a little while.
Thanks to AC, Michelle and Steuard for getting this chapter going. Three
authors! Which has not hurt the proceedings at all. In fact the thread is
surprisingly rich. Pity that the later Hobbit chapters are so short.
(Interesting to see how a thought on Thorin's character turned into a
monarchy discussion thread. Also, interesting discussion on how different
languages label numbers.)
> Why are all the clouds of finches and thrushes gathering? The carrion
> birds might make sense, but it just seems odd for the rest of them to be
> there.
Besides the obvious carrion birds, the arriving finches and thrushes might
be looking to the "after-aftermath" of the battle, that is, the insects and
worms feeding on whatever scraps the carrion birds leave. They might also be
claiming some real estate in advance for when the vegetation returns.
Competitive birds.
Whenever I read this chapter I can vividly imagine Roac son of Carc's creaky
old voice, like a parrot with a sore throat. But would an old bird really go
bald like that, or is this just anthropomorphism? Still, he's a wise old
bird, no apparent senility there, and I'm impressed that he's still able to
get into the air at his age!
> Bard's claims seem entirely justified, but Thorin refuses to consider
> them at all. It seems he's been brooding over his lost treasure so long
> that any way he regained it is justifiable, and he's not turning over so
> much as a penny to anyone until he's good and ready. You'd think he could
> have at least said "Thank you." to Bard for killing the dragon!
I agree that the stone wall is an impressive demonstration of the work of
thirteen determined Dwarves. The first party of Elves and Men to see it were
also surprised, it seems. Were they more surprised to find the Dwarves
alive, or to see the extent of their work? I imagine it was more the former,
since they presumably know something about the Dwarvish work capacity. (It's
even more impressive to us because we know how late the Dwarves actually
started on the wall.) Presumably after dealing with Dain's army, the Elves
and Men would have had to bring up rams or trebuchets?
--
Ernst Stavro Blofeld (Lord Pęlluin,) Ph.D., Count of Tolfalas
Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld
so I'll just post my comment here.
After Bilbo explained what he was doing in their camp, I wonder if the Elves
and Men realized how vulnerable the Mountain was just then, with all the
Dwarves asleep and a rope dangling over the wall? It would have been a
simple matter for some Elves to silently climb up and slay the Dwarves in
their sleep. Yet the idea apparently does not occur to them. Is this due to
their sense of honour, their agreement with Bilbo's plan, or their
uncertainty as to what's up there?
Zett's right, Bilbo's burglar contract did take a lot of punishment,
including moisture. But although it's not mentioned, maybe he had a leather
pouch or wallet of some kind? And shouldn't the "paper" in fact be parchment
or vellum? We could even suppose the Dwarves made waterproof ink from coal
tar. I heard some ancient peoples engraved documents on thin sheets of
copper, and this seems an appropriately Dwarvish idea, though only for more
important documents.
Henriette
> Although I found the Ch. 16 thread on Google, it is no longer on my server,
> so I'll just post my comment here.
>
> After Bilbo explained what he was doing in their camp, I wonder if the Elves
> and Men realized how vulnerable the Mountain was just then, with all the
> Dwarves asleep and a rope dangling over the wall? It would have been a
> simple matter for some Elves to silently climb up and slay the Dwarves in
> their sleep. Yet the idea apparently does not occur to them.
We do not know, but in Chapter 17 the Elvenking says: "Long will I
tarry, ere I begin this war for gold. (...) Let us hope still for
something that will bring reconciliation". These are not the words of
a leader who considers slaying Dwarves in their sleep.
> Is this due to
> their sense of honour, their agreement with Bilbo's plan, or their
> uncertainty as to what's up there?
Henriette
Henriette
>
> Speaking of bawdy comedy, Henriette did you ever hear of a Dutch TV show
> called "Didi's comedy show" from around 1987? It was so roaringly funny
> I couldn't stop laughing from the moment it started, until it ended. I
> never heard anything of it again from the the time I last saw it. Do
> you know anything about it? 'Rider Vallerhorden' (AFAIK) was the main
> actor.
for you on "Didi's comedy show". I didn't find anything but a small
article in which it is called an "English translated German comedy
episode". Don't worry, I mix up a lot of countries when they are very
far from where I live. The article also said: "The program contains
the nick name of the comedian Dieter Hallerworden". I never heard of
it, but you make me curious.
What really makes *me* laugh is the English television series "Keeping
up appearances". You may not know it, but Jette definitely will, don't
you Jette?
Henriette
Henriette
> "Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:
> > (snip interesting story. Jette, do you write all this by heart? Amazing.)
>
> Memory - I've a bit of a special interest in the Jacobite
> period of history, and the situation with Charles II is
> part of the foundation of it. Charles II had many children
> by his mistresses, but none by his legal wife, so none were
> legitimate heirs.
Did these children have a flag with a stripe through it?
> He was succeeded by his younger brother
> James (James VII of Scotland, James II of England) who had
> converted to Roman Catholicism - which led to his ..... well,
> which led to him in exile, his daughters Mary (with husband
> William of Orange) and Anne inheriting - neither of whom
> had surviving children and that led to George of Hanover
> being chosen as Anne's heir, which led to the Uprisings....
>
Uprisings? Is that a "dangerous" subject in the sense it could turn
into a nasty political thread? Who rose up against who? Did James
convert to Roman Catholicism from Protestantism? Why? If you get tired
of answering, just leave it at this Jette. But I like your short
stories.
Henriette
Henriette
> (Interesting to see how a thought on Thorin's character turned into a
> monarchy discussion thread. Also, interesting discussion on how different
> languages label numbers.)
>
Yes, amazing what topics these Hobbit chapters can turn into!
Henriette
Jette Goldie
"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote
> What really makes *me* laugh is the English television series "Keeping
> up appearances". You may not know it, but Jette definitely will, don't
> you Jette?
Hyacinth Bucket ("boo-kay! it's pronounced boo-kay!") is not
exactly my favourite comedy, but yes, I know it.
My fave is "Drop the Dead Donkey"
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
> Although I found the Ch. 16 thread on Google, it is no longer on my server,
> so I'll just post my comment here.
>
> After Bilbo explained what he was doing in their camp, I wonder if the Elves
> and Men realized how vulnerable the Mountain was just then, with all the
> Dwarves asleep and a rope dangling over the wall? It would have been a
> simple matter for some Elves to silently climb up and slay the Dwarves in
> their sleep. Yet the idea apparently does not occur to them. Is this due to
> their sense of honour, their agreement with Bilbo's plan, or their
> uncertainty as to what's up there?
rope. The usual expectation is to see an enemy's camp watched and guarded
at night. Then, the Elves did not have the plan of the Mountain and could
easily get lost or ambushed in the caves. It is rather embarrassing to
send out a raid and see it butchered to the last soldier.
> Zett's right, Bilbo's burglar contract did take a lot of punishment,
> including moisture. But although it's not mentioned, maybe he had a leather
> pouch or wallet of some kind? And shouldn't the "paper" in fact be parchment
> or vellum? We could even suppose the Dwarves made waterproof ink from coal
> tar. I heard some ancient peoples engraved documents on thin sheets of
> copper, and this seems an appropriately Dwarvish idea, though only for more
> important documents.
Parchment is a most appropriate material for a legally binding document
expected to last for a period commensurate with the scale of Dwarven
lives. As for the ink, Dwarves are reputed to be quite ingenious- to wit,
the invisible 'moonshine' letters :-).
Archie
Hasmonean Tazmanian
Henriette wrote:
> Hasmonean Tazmanian <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:<gXJFb.57345$2We1...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
>
>
> Hasan, not being much of a television watcher, I did a Google search
> for you on "Didi's comedy show". I didn't find anything but a small
> article in which it is called an "English translated German comedy
> episode". Don't worry, I mix up a lot of countries when they are very
> far from where I live. The article also said: "The program contains
> the nick name of the comedian Dieter Hallerworden". I never heard of
> it, but you make me curious.
Thanks ! That's the name! I had tried googling it but got no
meaningful results. But the country I thought (NL) is obviously wrong.
I don't know where I got the idea it was from, but perhaps I had to try
to infer it from the show itself.
Hasan
Een Wilde Ier
LOL. The Sackville-Buckets...
Een Wilde Ier
> "Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in message news:<2CIFb.3802$8T7.34...@news-text.cableinet.net>...
>
>>"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:
>
>
>>>(snip interesting story. Jette, do you write all this by heart? Amazing.)
>>
>>Memory - I've a bit of a special interest in the Jacobite
>>period of history, and the situation with Charles II is
>>part of the foundation of it. Charles II had many children
>>by his mistresses, but none by his legal wife, so none were
>>legitimate heirs.
>
>
> Did these children have a flag with a stripe through it?
Good question! Did bastards (ahem) derive their coat of arms from their
father, or the mother?
>>He was succeeded by his younger brother
>>James (James VII of Scotland, James II of England) who had
>>converted to Roman Catholicism - which led to his ..... well,
>>which led to him in exile, his daughters Mary (with husband
>>William of Orange) and Anne inheriting - neither of whom
>>had surviving children and that led to George of Hanover
>>being chosen as Anne's heir, which led to the Uprisings....
>>
>
> Uprisings? Is that a "dangerous" subject in the sense it could turn
> into a nasty political thread?
Bonny Prince Charlie (another one!) etcetc.
Jette Goldie
> "Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in message
news:<2CIFb.3802$8T7.34...@news-text.cableinet.net>...
> > "Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:
>
> > > (snip interesting story. Jette, do you write all this by heart?
Amazing.)
> >
> > Memory - I've a bit of a special interest in the Jacobite
> > period of history, and the situation with Charles II is
> > part of the foundation of it. Charles II had many children
> > by his mistresses, but none by his legal wife, so none were
> > legitimate heirs.
>
> Did these children have a flag with a stripe through it?
Heh, they all got various peerages, yes, and their coats of
arms would have had the bar-sinister.
>
> > He was succeeded by his younger brother
> > James (James VII of Scotland, James II of England) who had
> > converted to Roman Catholicism - which led to his ..... well,
> > which led to him in exile, his daughters Mary (with husband
> > William of Orange) and Anne inheriting - neither of whom
> > had surviving children and that led to George of Hanover
> > being chosen as Anne's heir, which led to the Uprisings....
> >
> Uprisings? Is that a "dangerous" subject in the sense it could turn
> into a nasty political thread? Who rose up against who? Did James
> convert to Roman Catholicism from Protestantism? Why? If you get tired
> of answering, just leave it at this Jette. But I like your short
> stories.
I don't think anyone would really get too hot and bothered
about the politics of the Jacobite rebellions (there were two -
1715 and 1745) these days. For the story of the 1745, just
look for the name "Charles Edward Stuart", aka "Bonnie
Prince Charlie". Even the Americans have heard of him ;-)
Taemon
> Firstly, nobody knew that the wall wasn't guarded and nobody
saw the
> rope. The usual expectation is to see an enemy's camp watched
and guarded
> at night.
Yeah, like the time I kept my bike mine by simple wrapping a
chain around it. The lock was lost, or broken or something. It
was good enough.
T. <trivial>
Odysseus
>
> "Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:be50318e.03122...@posting.google.com...
>
> Heh, they all got various peerages, yes, and their coats of
> arms would have had the bar-sinister.
>
that was rarely observed in practice. If anyone's really interested we
could cross-post this thread to rec.heraldry for some expert commentary ...
> I don't think anyone would really get too hot and bothered
> about the politics of the Jacobite rebellions (there were two -
> 1715 and 1745) these days.
I've heard that there are still some grudge-holders who take care to
hold their drink above a glass of water during the toast to the monarch
at formal banquets and the like.
--
Odysseus
Henriette
> Henriette wrote:
> >
> > What really makes *me* laugh is the English television series "Keeping
> > up appearances". You may not know it, but Jette definitely will, don't
> > you Jette?
>
> LOL. The Sackville-Buckets...
So the wilde Ieren get to see it as well, Wilde Ier? It is very
popular in NL and when I'm in a car with family or friends I often
hear quote: "Mind the pedestrian Richard! Pedestrian, where?! There,
on the pavement! But a pedestrian is supposed to be on the pavement!
Richard, I don't like your tone!"
Henriette
Henriette
> Henriette wrote:
> >
> > Hasan, not being much of a television watcher, I did a Google search
> > for you on "Didi's comedy show". I didn't find anything but a small
> > article in which it is called an "English translated German comedy
>
> Thanks ! That's the name! I had tried googling it but got no
> meaningful results. But the country I thought (NL) is obviously wrong.
>
and we do have definitely different languages with different grammars.
But overall, the people and the languages resemble one another
strikingly. But to this, we Dutch will never admit in public :-)
Henriette
Henriette
> Jette Goldie wrote:
> >
> > Heh, they all got various peerages, yes, and their coats of
> > arms would have had the bar-sinister.
> >
> It's my impression that was one of many theoretical rules of heraldry
> that was rarely observed in practice. If anyone's really interested we
> could cross-post this thread to rec.heraldry for some expert commentary ...
Isn't the bar-sinister an interesting phenomenon? Actually I am really
interested, but I have seldom seen any good come from cross-posting
(except to rabt....)
>
> > I don't think anyone would really get too hot and bothered
> > about the politics of the Jacobite rebellions (there were two -
> > 1715 and 1745) these days.
>
> I've heard that there are still some grudge-holders who take care to
> hold their drink above a glass of water during the toast to the monarch
> at formal banquets and the like.
LOL. Why do the grudge-holders do that?
Henriette
Rhiannon S
>the Clouds
>From: held...@hotmail.com (Henriette)
>Date: 24/12/2003 05:49 GMT Standard Time
>Message-id: <be50318e.03122...@posting.google.com>
>
>Odysseus <odysseu...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message
>news:<3FE8C529...@yahoo-dot.ca>...
>> Jette Goldie wrote:
>> >
>> > I don't think anyone would really get too hot and bothered
>> > about the politics of the Jacobite rebellions (there were two -
>> > 1715 and 1745) these days.
If only, I worked at a holiday camp in the Scottish Highlands once, yes there
are people who still hold a grudge and still talk about it.
>> I've heard that there are still some grudge-holders who take care to
>> hold their drink above a glass of water during the toast to the monarch
>> at formal banquets and the like.
>
>LOL. Why do the grudge-holders do that?
>
To show they are not swearing loyalty to the sitting[1] monarch in London, but
to the one in wherever the current heir[2] is. They drink to "the king/queen
over the water". It comes from when the bonnie prince charlie[3] was residing
in france, across the water.
And Yes people still do this.
[1]Elizabeth is the current sitting monarch, except when she is standing up
[2]There is a group somewhere who is keeping track of the Jacobite line.
[3]The first panto dame
--
Rhiannon
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rhiannon_s/
Q: how many witches does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: depends on what you want it changed into!
Jette Goldie
Bit hard to do, since that branch of the Stuart lineage died
out about 2 centuries ago. So no "King over the Water" to
toast. ("Bonnie" Prince Charles ended up a drunken sot
with no heirs)
Henriette
> >> Jette Goldie wrote:
> Snip
> >> > I don't think anyone would really get too hot and bothered
> >> > about the politics of the Jacobite rebellions (there were two -
> >> > 1715 and 1745) these days.
>
> If only, I worked at a holiday camp in the Scottish Highlands once, yes there
> are people who still hold a grudge and still talk about it.
Our Jette does not travel that far up north so she doesn't know....
> >
> >Why do the grudge-holders do that?
> >
> To show they are not swearing loyalty to the sitting[1] monarch in London, but
> to the one in wherever the current heir[2] is. They drink to "the king/queen
> over the water". It comes from when the bonnie prince charlie[3] was residing
> in france, across the water.
>
> And Yes people still do this.
>
> [1]Elizabeth is the current sitting monarch, except when she is standing up
> [2]There is a group somewhere who is keeping track of the Jacobite line.
> [3]The first panto dame
LOL. Thank you for explaining and cheers! A Merry Christmas to you
funny neighbours (Henriette holds her drink above a glass of water and
looks westwards)....
Henriette
Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
> Whenever I read this chapter I can vividly imagine Roac son of Carc's creaky
> old voice, like a parrot with a sore throat.
Coincidentally, today's Sherlock Holmes film (BBC2) featured a
talking raven, whose instinct for carrion formed a minor plot point :-)
--
Igenlode
'Eagle's Daughter' - historical romance now on-line at
http://curry.250x.com/Tower/Fiction/eagle/