Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk5 Ch1 Minas Tirith
Christopher Kreuzer
Book 5, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith
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Chapter Summary
===============
This chapter is the first one in 'The Return of the King' (the third
part of 'The Lord of the Rings'). Despite the cliffhanger that ended the
previous chapter ("Frodo was alive but taken by the Enemy"), the tale
returns first to the fortunes of the other members of the Fellowship.
The story begun in the final chapter of Book III (The Palantir) is
resumed. We follow Pippin as he rides with Gandalf to Minas Tirith; see
the beacons of Gondor lit calling for aid; and come to the Tower of
Guard, the city of the Men of Gondor, at the rising of the Sun. Pippin
rides with Gandalf up through the streets of the city, coming to the
Court of the Fountain and seeing the White Tree.
Gandalf and Pippin meet the Lord and Steward of Minas Tirith, Denethor
son of Ecthelion, and hear his reaction to the death of his son Boromir.
Pippin pledges his allegiance to Gondor in payment of his debt to
Boromir, and is then questioned at length by Denethor. Gandalf is almost
completely ignored by Denethor, and a growing tension between the two
results in an angry exchange of words that ends with Gandalf striding
from the chamber in wrath, followed by Pippin.
A short while later, Gandalf leaves to attend the lords' council called
by Denethor. For the rest of the day, Pippin is shown the ways of the
city by Beregond, a Guard of the Citadel, and later by Beregond's son
Bergil. Pippin and Beregond talk of the customs of their countries, the
wide lands they see before them in front of Minas Tirith, and of the
growing shadow of war. Pippin sees wains bearing refugees southwards
from the city. With Bergil, Pippin sees the Captains of the Outlands
ride in to add their forces to the army of Gondor. The chapter ends at
night when Pippin is woken by Gandalf's return. Gandalf tells Pippin
that he should sleep, in a bed while he still may, declaring: "The
Darkness has begun. There will be no dawn."
Comments and thoughts
=====================
Although the main action in this chapter only covers a single day, it is
a day during which a lot happens! Rather than cover every event,
description and conversation, I have selected a few below to cover in
greater detail together with some questions.
A) Specific comments on the text
[Dreamlike ride on Shadowfax]
"As he fell slowly into sleep, Pippin had a strange feeling: he and
Gandalf were still as stone, seated upon the statue of a running horse,
while the world rolled away beneath his feet with a great noise of
wind." (Final line of 'The Palantir')
"Pippin [...] wondered if he was awake or still sleeping, still in the
swift-moving dream in which he had been wrapped so long since the great
ride began. The dark world was rushing by and the wind sang loudly in
his ears. He could see nothing but the wheeling stars, and away to his
right vast shadows against the sky where the mountains of the South
marched past." (First lines of 'Minas Tirith')
The opening lines of the chapter 'Minas Tirith' segue seamlessly from
the closing lines of 'The Palantir' chapter. The writing strongly evokes
that drowsy state between being asleep and being awake, with Pippin
struggling to remember how long it has been since he looked in the
palantir, followed by sudden wakefulness: "And with that hideous memory
he woke fully, and shivered, and the noise of the wind became filled
with menacing voices." As he wakes, Pippin is momentarily terrified by
the sight of the rising Moon, before he realises what it is.
Pippin's recollections also include coming to a silent town and a great
empty house on a hill, with a pale gleam of gold in the dawn. Do you
think Tolkien is right to not say clearly that this is Edoras, and
instead maintain a dreamlike atmosphere?
[Beacons and Errand-riders]
As Pippin and Gandalf ride on, Pippin suddenly sees fire on the hills to
their right. Gandalf explains what they are: "On, Shadowfax! We must
hasten. Time is short. See! The beacons of Gondor are alight, calling
for aid. War is kindled. See, there is the fire on Amon Dîn, and flame
on Eilenach; and there they go speeding west: Nardol, Erelas,
Min-Rimmon, Calenhad, and the Halifirien on the borders of Rohan."
But Shadowfax slows to a walk and neighs in greeting as three horsemen
ride past: "presently the thudding of hoofs was heard, and three riders
swept up and passed like flying ghosts in the moon and vanished into the
West. Then Shadowfax gathered himself together and sprang away, and the
night flowed over him like a roaring wind."
Are these three riders the errand-riders of Gondor, bearing the Red
Arrow to Theoden? In later chapters we read of Hirgon presenting the Red
Arrow to Theoden, and later still we hear of two dead errand-riders, one
of whom was almost certainly Hirgon. Are these all the same people?
[Gandalf and Tolkien in two moods - Part 1: Gandalf-Ingold]
A day or so later, Pippin wakes in the twilight before dawn to hear
voices. Gandalf is talking to Ingold, leader of a company of men from
Minas Tirith, and is negotiating for Pippin to be allowed to go with
Gandalf to Minas Tirith: "I will vouch for him before the seat of
Denethor."
We are told that the Gondorians do not want strangers in the land at
this time of war. Gandalf then reveals that they bear tidings of the
storming of Isengard, Pippin declares himself to be a hobbit, and
Gandalf's use of the word 'halfling' provokes amazement among the
Gondorians. Pippin's untimely revelation of Boromir's death does not
cause surprise, but seems to prompt Ingold to allow them to pass.
Gandalf's parting words warn that enemy armies and battle is close at
hand, but that the Rohirrim are preparing to ride to the aid of Gondor.
Gandalf and Pippin then ride through the Rammas Echor, the out-wall that
surrounds the Pelennor, the lands in front of Minas Tirith. Eventually,
after riding for some time, they come to the gates of Minas Tirith at
dawn. In stark contrast to the talking at the Rammas Echor, Gandalf's
commanding voice gains them safe passage:
"So Gandalf and Peregrin rode to the Great Gate of the Men of Gondor at
the rising of the sun, and its iron doors rolled back before them.
'Mithrandir! Mithrandir!' men cried. 'Now we know that the storm is
indeed nigh!'
'It is upon you,' said Gandalf. 'I have ridden on its wings. Let me
pass! I must come to your Lord Denethor, while his stewardship lasts.
Whatever betide, you have come to the end of the Gondor that you have
known. Let me pass!'
Then men fell back before the command of his voice and questioned him no
further, though they gazed in wonder at the hobbit that sat before him
and at the horse that bore him."
What is the reason for this sudden change in tone? The first encounter
allows Tolkien to supply the reader with bits of information, while the
second allows Tolkien free rein with a different style. Is this
sufficient to explain the change in tone, or is this mayhaps an
historical voice, the scene being described in a copy of the Red Book by
a scribe of Gondor?
[Minas Tirith and its surrounds]
Before Pippin and Gandalf reach Minas Tirith there is a long descriptive
passage describing the appearance of the Pelennor, farmlands rising up
in terraces from the River Anduin to the city of Minas Tirith, located
on a shoulder of Mount Mindolluin, last of the White Mountains. There is
an even longer description of the city itself and its seven walls rising
to the Citadel at its peak. Pippin reacts with awe and wonder, though as
Pippin rides with Gandalf through the streets we read that in fact: "it
was in truth falling year by year into decay..."
What impressions do you get from the descriptions of Minas Tirith?
[Guards and a dead tree]
As Pippin and Gandalf pass into the Citadel, we read about the Guards at
the gate and the emblems that they bear: "Upon the black surcoats were
embroidered in white a tree blossoming like snow beneath a silver crown
and many-pointed stars. This was the livery of the heirs of Elendil, and
none wore it now in all Gondor, save the Guards of the Citadel before
the Court of the Fountain where the White Tree once had grown." As
Gandalf strides onwards across the Court of the Fountain, Pippin sees
that symbolic sight: "A sweet fountain played there in the morning sun,
and a sward of bright green lay about it; but in the midst, drooping
over the pool, stood a dead tree, and the falling drops dripped sadly
from its barren and broken branches back into the clear water."
Tolkien, through Pippin, reminds the reader of the rhyme of "seven stars
and seven stones and one white tree". Yet more iconic imagery is being
added to the reader's mental image of Minas Tirith. Is the reader, like
Pippin, being overwhelmed by the ancientry and majesty of what is being
depicted?
[Stone and Wood]
After a short conversation (covered elsewhere) Pippin and Gandalf enter
the throne room to meet with Denethor: "Pippin looked into a great hall.
It was lit by deep windows in the wide aisles at either side, beyond the
rows of tall pillars that upheld the roof. Monoliths of black marble,
they rose to great capitals carved in many strange figures of beasts and
leaves; and far above in shadow the wide vaulting gleamed with dull
gold, inset with flowing traceries of many colours. No hangings nor
storied webs, nor any things of woven stuff or of wood, were to be seen
in that long solemn hall; but between the pillars there stood a silent
company of tall images graven in cold stone."
Pippin is reminded of the Argonath ("awe fell on him, as he looked down
that avenue of kings long dead"), but Tolkien's words contrast the stone
of this room with hangings and wood. Is he comparing it to Meduseld in
Edoras, much as Gandalf has contrasted Denethor with Theoden?
[Gandalf and Tolkien in two moods - Part 2: Gandalf-Denethor]
Finally, after a rising crescendo of descriptions, we reach the throne
where Gandalf courteously addresses Denethor: "Hail, Lord and Steward of
Minas Tirith, Denethor son of Ecthelion! I am come with counsel and
tidings in this dark hour."
What then follows is mainly focused on Denethor's ongoing reaction to
the news of Boromir's death, and on Denethor's conversation with Pippin
(covered elsewhere). This is not to Gandalf's liking as he tells
Denethor: "I have not ridden hither from Isengard, one hundred and fifty
leagues, with the speed of wind, only to bring you one small warrior,
however courteous. Is it naught to you that Theoden has fought a great
battle and that Isengard is overthrown, and that I have broken the staff
of Saruman?"
Pippin looks at Gandalf and Denethor and: "he felt the strain between
them, almost as if he saw a line of smouldering fire, drawn from eye to
eye, that might suddenly burst into flame." After a delightful passage
where Pippin perceives "by a sense other than sight" the greater power
of Gandalf and muses on Gandalf's origins, Denethor cryptically says:
"for though the Stones be lost, they say, still the lords of Gondor have
keener sight than lesser men, and many messages come to them."
But still Denethor does not listen to Gandalf, and questions Pippin at
length while Pippin feels Gandalf: "holding in check a rising wrath and
impatience." Denethor then tries to mollify Gandalf: "And you, my Lord
Mithrandir, shall come too, as and when you will", but Gandalf has been
pushed too far: "Do you think that I do not understand your purpose in
questioning for an hour one who knows the least, while I sit by?"
This provokes the following from Denethor as he accuses Gandalf of
manipulating things for his own purposes: "the Lord of Gondor is not to
be made the tool of other men's purposes, however worthy. And to him
there is no purpose higher in the world as it now stands than the good
of Gondor; and the rule of Gondor, my lord, is mine and no other man's,
unless the king should come again."
Gandalf responds with his own declaration of his ideology: "the rule of
no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But
all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are
my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though
Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can
still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I
also am a steward. Did you not know?"
And Gandalf strides from the room with Pippin running at his side.
Whew! What happened there?! Gandalf started off polite and courteous,
but was mostly ignored by Denethor. Denethor appears grief-stricken, but
is later accused by Gandalf of using grief as a cloak and interrogating
Pippin. The scene ends with Gandalf striding from the hall without leave
of the Lord he has come to counsel. What has gone wrong here? Can this
be compared with the scene in Edoras where Gandalf successfully brings
counsel to Theoden?
[A grief-stricken old man? Pippin-Denethor]
Pippin's first sight of Denethor is described thus: "At the far end upon
a dais of many steps was set a high throne [...] But the throne was
empty. At the foot of the dais, upon the lowest step which was broad and
deep, there was a stone chair, black and unadorned, and on it sat an old
man gazing at his lap. In his hand was a white rod with a golden knob."
As Gandalf hails him, Denethor looks up: "Pippin saw his carven face
with its proud bones and skin like ivory, and the long curved nose
between the dark deep eyes; and he was reminded not so much of Boromir
as of Aragorn."
Denethor's response to Gandalf's hail includes: "But though all the
signs forebode that the doom of Gondor is drawing nigh, less now to me
is that darkness than my own darkness." Denethor reveals how he knows of
Boromir's death, saying that he heard the horn of Boromir (as did
Faramir) and he shows them the cloven horn that now lies in his lap.
Looking back to an earlier chapter, Faramir said to Frodo and Sam: "And
now the horn of the elder son lies in two pieces upon the lap of
Denethor, sitting in his high chair, waiting for news." (The Window on
the West)
Is the impression here that Denethor has been overcome with grief and is
just sitting in his throne room waiting for news? How long would he have
been sitting here, neglecting the running of the city? Why then does
Denethor question Pippin so closely?
"What say you to that, Halfling?"; "Tell me more! Why did no help come?
And how did you escape...";"Whence came this [Pippin's sword]? Many,
many years lie on it. Surely this is a blade wrought by our own kindred
in the North in the deep past?"; "...speak and be not silent! Tell me
your full tale, and see that you recall all that you can of Boromir, my
son."; "Pippin never forgot that hour in the great hall under the
piercing eye of the Lord of Gondor, stabbed ever and anon by his shrewd
questions."
Gandalf later explains to Pippin: "Still the Lord of Gondor learned more
from you than you may have guessed, Pippin. You could not hide the fact
that Boromir did not lead the Company from Moria, and that there was one
among you of high honour who was coming to Minas Tirith; and that he had
a famous sword."
This recalls Gandalf's warning to Pippin before they meet Denethor: "Be
careful of your words, Master Peregrin! [...] [Denethor] will speak most
to you, and question you much, [...] he will think it easier to learn
what he wishes from you rather than from me. Do not tell him more than
you need, and leave quiet the matter of Frodo's errand. I will deal with
that in due time. And say nothing about Aragorn either, unless you
must."
When does Gandalf tell Denethor of Frodo's errand? How much does
Denethor know of Aragorn, both before and after questioning Pippin? And,
most interestingly for me: why did Gandalf take Pippin with him to
Denethor? Was this a calculated risk, or a necessary action?
Story-externally, the reason seems clear, but story-internally did
Gandalf realise that Denethor would demand to speak to Pippin?
Also, who is manipulating who? Gandalf or Denethor? Is Pippin a pawn in
all this?
The later pages of the chapter provide a marked contrast to the
atmosphere in the throne room with Denethor, and we and Pippin meet,
instead, Beregond and his son Bergil. What purpose do the Beregond and
Bergil bits have, and how do they contrast with the Denethor scene?
B) General comments
- Synchronisation with Sam/Frodo storyline.
There are two passages that remind the reader that we have gone back in
time from the moment where we left Frodo, captured by the Enemy. As
Pippin is riding with Gandalf: "He wondered where Frodo was, and if he
was already in Mordor, or if he was dead; and he did not know that Frodo
from far away looked on that same moon as it set beyond Gondor ere the
coming of the day."
I think this is a reference to the moment where Frodo looks at the moon
setting over Gondor from the top of the waterfall at Henneth Annun, just
before helping Faramir's men capture Gollum.
The other synchronisation moment is: "At last they came out of shadow to
the seventh gate, and the warm sun that shone down beyond the river, as
Frodo walked in the glades of Ithilien, glowed here on the smooth
walls..."
This seems to be from the first bit of the journey to the Crossroads.
These are nice moments, but are probably also needed to orientate the
reader correctly with the timeline. Does this work? Is it easy to
understand the timeline without looking at Appendix B?
- This chapter comes after 10 chapters, 183 pages, and 16 days of
following the journey of Frodo and Sam some 200 miles from the Emyn Muil
to Cirith Ungol. The dates of this chapter versus the Sam and Frodo
events are:
March 5 Frodo hides near the Black Gate and leaves at dusk.
March 5 Gandalf and Pippin ride from near Isengard at night.
March 7 Pippin sees moon over White Mountains.
March 7 Frodo sees moon setting over Gondor.
March 9 Gandalf and Pippin reach Minas Tirith at dawn.
March 9 Frodo walking in Ithilien sunlight after leaving Henneth Annun.
March 9 (night) Gandalf says there will be no dawn.
March 10 The Dawnless Day. Frodo sees the Morgul host set forth.
I think this is the Morgul host that attacks Osgiliath and then Minas
Tirith. Or is that the host from Mordor? There is another host heading
across the Anduin further north as well I believe. And we also have the
Corsairs in the south.
- Almost the whole chapter is from Pippin's POV (point-of-view). Some
nice moments:
"If you have walked all these days with closed ears and mind asleep,
wake up now!" (Gandalf talking to Pippin before they meet Denethor)
"[Gandalf] came and stood beside Pippin, putting his arm about the
hobbit's shoulders [...] Pippin glanced in some wonder at the face now
close beside his own [...], he saw at first only lines of care and
sorrow; though as he looked more intently he perceived that under all
there was a great joy: a fountain of mirth enough to set a kingdom
laughing, were it to gush forth." (Gandalf reassuring Pippin that he did
his best when being questioned by Denethor)
What do we learn of Pippin from this chapter? How are these new
experiences affecting him? How is he coping being on his own, separated
from Merry and the others?
- Denethor's character.
"A pale smile, like a gleam of cold sun on a winter's evening, passed
over the old man's face."
I wanted to say more about Denethor. But really this is just an excuse
to quote the line above, which is just delightful! He is reacting to
Pippin's offer of his sword in payment of the debt that Pippin feels he
owes Boromir. There is a bit more about Denethor below...
- Archaic speech of Denethor.
Denethor uses words like 'verily' (as does Boromir at the Council of
Elrond) and 'whence' and 'belie' and 'yea'. There is more of this in
later chapters, and probably archaic sentence constructions that I don't
know enough grammar to point out, but it is noticeable that Ingold too
uses words like 'aught' and 'ere' and 'yea'. Beregond and Bergil's
speech seem less archaic, but Beregond does use 'yestereve' and comments
on Pippin's accent.
- The Numenoreans.
With this meeting with Denethor, we now have four leaders of Numenoreans
to compare. Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir and Denethor. Can we say anything
about them? I would say that Faramir, Aragorn and Denethor are more
similar than Boromir, who seems to be the odd one out ("More like to the
swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor..." said Eomer). We
are told directly in this chapter that Pippin is reminded of Aragorn
when he sees Denethor. We also see signs of the 'long sight' that
Numenoreans have, and hear of blood running true from Gandalf:
"[Denethor] is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be
his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse
runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet
did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can
perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the
minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to
deceive him, and dangerous to try."
Where in the book do we see this 'long sight' in Faramir and Aragorn?
What impressions do people get from this chapter of Denethor? A grieving
father? A kindly old man? An Aragorn-type figure? A scheming politician?
A noble lord defending his city?
- The geopolitical situation and the war.
Throughout this chapter we are told of the ongoing war, and the threats
to Gondor, and we see the many preparations being made: beacons are lit;
errand-riders go to Rohan; the out-wall is being repaired; but it is in
the bits with Beregond and Bergil that we learn most of the war:
"There go the last of the wains that bear away to refuge the aged, the
children, and the women that must go with them."; "...we await now a new
onslaught there [Osgiliath]. Maybe the chief onslaught of the war that
comes."; "...if you would know what I think set the beacons ablaze, it
was the news that came yestereve out of Lebennin. There is a great fleet
drawing near to the mouths of Anduin, manned by the corsairs of Umbar in
the South."; "...the doings at Isengard should warn us that we are
caught now in a great net and strategy. This is no longer a bickering at
the fords, raiding from Ithilien and from Anorien, ambushing and
pillaging. This is a great war long-planned, and we are but one piece in
it, whatever pride may say. Things move in the far East beyond the
Inland Sea, it is reported; and north in Mirkwood and beyond; and south
in Harad. And now all realms shall be put to the test, to stand, or
fall - under the Shadow."
The morale of the city seems strangely ambivalent. A winged Nazgul
passes over and Beregond is stricken: "I fear that Minas Tirith shall
fall. Night comes. The very warmth of my blood seems stolen away." But
the sun returns and Pippin rejects despair and Beregond is inspired to
say: "Nay, though all things must come utterly to an end in time, Gondor
shall not perish yet. Not though the walls be taken by a reckless foe
that will build a hill of carrion before them. There are still other
fastnesses, and secret ways of escape into the mountains. Hope and
memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green."
The morale of the city seems also to be boosted by Pippin's very
presence (even though he had not brought an army with him as rumour
said), and the people of the city hail him as: "Ernil i Pheriannath"
(Prince of the Halflings).
This rumour is quite funny: "...when the Riders came from Rohan each
would bring behind him a halfling warrior, small maybe, but doughty."
And how many halfling warriors did the Rohirrim bring with them in the
end? :-) Actually, that one doughty warrior achieved something very
important...
Later, Pippin befriends Beregond's son Bergil, only 10 years old but
allowed to remain in the city to help where he may. We are told that
"Bergil proved a good comrade, the best company Pippin had had since he
parted from Merry", but we are also reminded that Bergil is still a
child and perhaps does not understand the danger as much as Pippin does:
"Pippin looked up, and it seemed to him that the sky had grown
ashen-grey, as if a vast dust and smoke hung above them, and light came
dully through it. But in the West the dying sun had set all the fume on
fire, and now Mindolluin stood black against a burning smoulder flecked
with embers. 'So ends a fair day in wrath!' he said, forgetful of the
lad at his side."
And this, it seems, presages the coming of the darkness from Mordor.
When Pippin returns to his lodgings the darkness is described as: "like
looking into a pool of ink." And then Gandalf ends the chapter with the
dramatic: "The Darkness has begun. There will be no dawn."
C) Other comments
- Meaning of 'wont' (noun and verb).
The word 'wont' is used several times in this chapter. It seems to mean
'custom' or 'accustomed' as in: "But you come with tidings of grief and
danger, as is your wont, they say."; and "at such times you are wont to
come, Mithrandir."
Does anyone know what the etymology of this word is? Anything similar in
other languages?
- Silver trumpets.
Finally, I want to point out something that I only realised recently. In
one of the Peter Jackson films Boromir says something along the lines of
"have you never heard the sound of silver trumpets calling you home?" I
thought that this was just a nice addition to the film, but was
pleasantly surprised to realise that it was almost certainly inspired by
a line from this chapter: "...and high and far he heard a clear ringing
as of silver trumpets." The full quote is given below, from the scene
where Pippin and Gandalf ride to the gates of Minas Tirith at dawn.
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
"Even as Pippin gazed in wonder the walls passed from looming grey to
white, blushing faintly in the dawn; and suddenly the sun climbed over
the eastern shadow and sent forth a shaft that smote the face of the
City. Then Pippin cried aloud, for the Tower of Ecthelion, standing high
within the topmost wall, shone out against the sky, glimmering like a
spike of pearl and silver, tall and fair and shapely, and its pinnacle
glittered as if it were wrought of crystals; and white banners broke and
fluttered from the battlements in the morning breeze, and high and far
he heard a clear ringing as of silver trumpets." (Dawn as Pippin and
Gandalf approach Minas Tirith - 'Minas Tirith')
Michele Fry
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>C) Other comments
>
>- Meaning of 'wont' (noun and verb).
>
>The word 'wont' is used several times in this chapter. It seems to mean
>'custom' or 'accustomed' as in: "But you come with tidings of grief and
>danger, as is your wont, they say."; and "at such times you are wont to
>come, Mithrandir."
>
>Does anyone know what the etymology of this word is? Anything similar in
>other languages?
From the Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com/):
wont - early 14c., from pp. of wonen "to dwell," from O.E. wunian "to
dwell, be accustomed," from P.Gmc. *wun-, related to O.E. winnan,
gewinnan "to win" (see win) and to wean. Wonted is first attested early
15c. [P.Gmc. Proto-Germanic, hypothetical prehistoric ancestor of all
Germanic languages, including English.]
Michele
==
"When ideas fail, words come in very handy." - Goethe
==
Now reading: Letters of J R R Tolkien - H Carpenter & C Tolkien
==
Counter-Attack web site: http://www.sassoonery.demon.co.uk
Jens Kilian
> Pippin's recollections also include coming to a silent town and a great
> empty house on a hill, with a pale gleam of gold in the dawn. Do you
> think Tolkien is right to not say clearly that this is Edoras, and
> instead maintain a dreamlike atmosphere?
This is Pippin's first visit to Edoras, so he could not know the names of the
town or the hall.
Bye,
Jens.
--
mailto:j...@acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>> Pippin's recollections also include coming to a silent town and a
>> great empty house on a hill, with a pale gleam of gold in the dawn.
>> Do you think Tolkien is right to not say clearly that this is
>> Edoras, and instead maintain a dreamlike atmosphere?
>
> This is Pippin's first visit to Edoras, so he could not know the
> names of the town or the hall.
Actually, Gandalf mentions Edoras to Pippin in the Palantir chapter
(though how the reader is expected to remember this, I don't know - and
I couldn't find any reference to Pippin being told the name of
Meduseld).
Thanks for reminding me about this as, despite it being in the
'previous' chapter (as far as the Pippin/Merry storyline goes), it is a
nice summary of what happens in the first few pages of this chapter:
"We shall ride now till daybreak, and that is some hours away. Then even
Shadowfax must rest, in some hollow of the hills: at Edoras, I hope.
Sleep, if you can! You may see the first glimmer of dawn upon the golden
roof of the house of Eorl. And in two days thence you shall see the
purple shadow of Mount Mindolluin and the walls of the tower of Denethor
white in the morning." (Gandalf speaking to Pippin at the end of 'The
Palantir' chapter in 'The Two Towers')
Compare that to the following snippets from this chapter ('Minas
Tirith') at the beginning of 'The Return of the King':
"...the first ride at terrible speed without a halt, and then in the
dawn he had seen a pale gleam of gold, and they had come to the silent
town and the great empty house on the hill."
[This connects with Gandalf's earlier bit about riding 'now till
daybreak' trying to reach Edoras, and the 'glimmer of dawn upon the
golden roof of the house of Eorl']
"Another day of hiding and a night of journey had fleeted by."
[which I think confirms Gandalf's earlier bit about 'two days', and
about having to rest and hide in the 'hollow of the hills' during the da
y, probably to evade the Nazgul and other winged spies]
"And there where the White Mountains of Ered Nimrais came to their end
he saw, as Gandalf had promised, the dark mass of Mount Mindolluin, the
deep purple shadows of its high glens..."
[This bit even refers back to Gandalf's 'promise', which is the words
quoted at the beginning of the chapter, about seeing 'the purple shadow
of Mount Mindolluin']
{And about this purple shadow: does this imply something like heather in
flower in the glens? Or is it just a reference to blackness turning to
purple and then green as the sun rises?}
"Even as Pippin gazed in wonder the walls [of Minas Tirith] passed from
looming grey to white, blushing faintly in the dawn..."
[And this bit is connected to Gandalf's earlier comment on 'the walls of
the tower of Denethor white in the morning', though actually, as Gandalf
refers to the tower, it more accurately refers to the bit where Pippin
sees the sun shine on the tower: "the Tower of Ecthelion, standing high
within the topmost walls, shone out against the sky, glimmering like a
spike of pearl and silver..."]
So if Pippin had been paying attention, he would have known what he was
going to see! :-)
AC
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
<reallllly big snip, excellent summary I might add!>
>
> - Archaic speech of Denethor.
>
> Denethor uses words like 'verily' (as does Boromir at the Council of
> Elrond) and 'whence' and 'belie' and 'yea'. There is more of this in
> later chapters, and probably archaic sentence constructions that I don't
> know enough grammar to point out, but it is noticeable that Ingold too
> uses words like 'aught' and 'ere' and 'yea'. Beregond and Bergil's
> speech seem less archaic, but Beregond does use 'yestereve' and comments
> on Pippin's accent.
This is an example of archaic language representing nobility. Denethor is
of high (though not highest) ancestry, and thus his language retains the
most archaisms. Beregond, while still a Numenorean, is not of any nobility,
and thus his speech is closer in some respects to Pippin's (let's not get
into a discussion how two different groups of people of obvious ethnic
diversity would be speaking the Westron descendant of Adunaic closely enough
that they can converse with each other).
>
> - The Numenoreans.
>
> With this meeting with Denethor, we now have four leaders of Numenoreans
> to compare. Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir and Denethor. Can we say anything
> about them? I would say that Faramir, Aragorn and Denethor are more
> similar than Boromir, who seems to be the odd one out ("More like to the
> swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor..." said Eomer). We
> are told directly in this chapter that Pippin is reminded of Aragorn
> when he sees Denethor. We also see signs of the 'long sight' that
> Numenoreans have, and hear of blood running true from Gandalf:
>
> "[Denethor] is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be
> his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse
> runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet
> did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can
> perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the
> minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to
> deceive him, and dangerous to try."
>
> Where in the book do we see this 'long sight' in Faramir and Aragorn?
I think Aragorn displayed this rather well in Bree, and Faramir recognized
both the wickedness of Gollum and the truth of Frodo's words.
>
> What impressions do people get from this chapter of Denethor? A grieving
> father? A kindly old man? An Aragorn-type figure? A scheming politician?
> A noble lord defending his city?
Well, he was no kindly old man, but he was grieving over the death of a
favorite son. He's one of my favorite characters in all of Tolkien's
mythos. We see, I think, the mightiest of Men save Aragorn still alive at
the end of the Third Age. He has a keen mind, a potent will (which I think
explains the utter madness when it finally shatters), and is very much a
kingly figure in the form of what I imagine most of the great monarchs in
real history were (people like Peter the Great, Frederick the Great,
Charlemagne and Elizabeth I). Aragorn is the mythical king, the wise,
strong, kindly prince in hiding (an Arthurian figure, really) come to claim
his rightful throne. Aragorn is something of an archetype, while Denethor
represents the reailities of a ruler beset by personal tragedy and a war
that he cannot hope to win. In the end his failure is the same as the
Valar's (from another thread), a lack of of faith.
We don't see the tragic side of Denethor yet, just the prideful, powerful
man. He is flawed, to be sure. He loved one son more than the other,
considered only the political and strategic position of Gondor (explaining
why he reacts so strongly later when Faramir returns to tell him that the
Ring went into Mordor). That's why I like him (and Turin for similar
reasons), and his self-destruction later is such a sad thing, even though he
may be one of the least sympathetic characters in the entire book.
<snip>
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
"My illness is due to my doctor's insistence that I drink milk, a
whitish fluid they force down helpless babies." - WC Fields
Michele Fry
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>So if Pippin had been paying attention, he would have known what he was
>going to see! :-)
ITIC* But if Pippin had been paying attention, Gandalf wouldn't have
rebuked him - as you yourself quoted in your chapter summary thus:
'"If you have walked all these days with closed ears and mind asleep,
wake up now!" (Gandalf talking to Pippin before they meet Denethor)'
- so we know Pippin doesn't pay attention, having been chiefly concerned
with food and merriment. It isn't until the business with the Orc
capture, the Ents and Isengard that he really begins to wake up properly
- and even then he clearly hasn't thought too much about Aragorn and his
role...
Michele
* Insert Tongue Into Cheek.
Troels Forchhammer
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
> Book 5, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith
Wow! 526 lines ;-)
That's quite a bit, and I won't be getting further tonight (got to find
my bed soon <G>)
<snip>
> [Dreamlike ride on Shadowfax]
<snip quotations>
> The opening lines of the chapter 'Minas Tirith' segue seamlessly
> from the closing lines of 'The Palantir' chapter.
Exactly -- I always find that this opening brings me back to book III
immediately (though in recent years I've taken to get Sam and Frodo
into Mordor before starting on book V).
> The writing strongly evokes that drowsy state between being asleep
> and being awake, with Pippin struggling to remember how long it
> has been since he looked in the palantir, followed by sudden
> wakefulness:
> "And with that hideous memory he woke fully, and shivered, and the
> noise of the wind became filled with menacing voices."
> As he wakes, Pippin is momentarily terrified by the sight of the
> rising Moon, before he realises what it is.
Is he, in his half-awake state, first reminded of the palantír, or is
it simply some other fear of fire?
> Pippin's recollections also include coming to a silent town and a
> great empty house on a hill, with a pale gleam of gold in the
> dawn. Do you think Tolkien is right to not say clearly that this
> is Edoras, and instead maintain a dreamlike atmosphere?
Definitely. It is necessary for the reader to recall the atmosphere he
left in book III. And Tolkien does actually come out and state it
explicitly, though later, in "The Muster of Rohan" when Dúnhere tells
Théoden about it ("'At dawn three days ago, lord,' he said, 'Shadowfax
came like a wind out of the West to Edoras, and Gandalf brought
tidings [...]").
> [Beacons and Errand-riders]
>
> As Pippin and Gandalf ride on, Pippin suddenly sees fire on the
> hills to their right. Gandalf explains what they are: "On,
> Shadowfax! We must hasten. Time is short. See! The beacons of
> Gondor are alight, calling for aid. War is kindled. See, there is
> the fire on Amon Dîn, and flame on Eilenach; and there they go
> speeding west: Nardol, Erelas, Min-Rimmon, Calenhad, and the
> Halifirien on the borders of Rohan."
That reminds me of "The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor" from VT 42,
not to mention all the information in UT.
Though it was almost certainly a later development, it is nice to think
that they're riding past Elendil's tomb, and that the name, which is
Rohirric, meant "holy mountain".
<snip>
> Are these three riders the errand-riders of Gondor, bearing the
> Red Arrow to Theoden? In later chapters we read of Hirgon
> presenting the Red Arrow to Theoden, and later still we hear of
> two dead errand-riders, one of whom was almost certainly Hirgon.
> Are these all the same people?
Let's see . . .
Gandalf and Pippin arrive at Minas Tirith on March 9, when Théoden also
arrive at Dunharrow as do Hirgon. As I read it Gandalf and Pippin
encounter the riders the evening of the seventh (later we hear how
"another day of hiding and a night of journey had fleeted by"). I'd
say, then, that it is quite possible that it would be Hirgon, as that
would give him two whole days to cover the same distance (plus the
extra bit from Edoras to Dunharrow) which Shadowfax has covered in
little more than one night.
Fonstad has Gandalf and Pippin spend the day of the seventh about 20
miles from the Firien Wood and the Gondor/Rohan border (the Mering
Stream). The meeting is in Anórien, but the question is whether it was
before or after Halifirien. If we put it at about the location of
Halifirien it would correspond (again according to Fonstad) to about
two and half days journey for the Rohirrim who were conserving their
strength (as well as the strength of their horses), so that would still
fit well with Hirgon making the same journey in two days.
I'll go so far as to stick my neck in the noose and say that it is
indeed Hirgon with companions ;-)
> [Gandalf and Tolkien in two moods - Part 1: Gandalf-Ingold]
<snip>
> We are told that the Gondorians do not want strangers in the land
> at this time of war. Gandalf then reveals that they bear tidings
> of the storming of Isengard, Pippin declares himself to be a
> hobbit, and Gandalf's use of the word 'halfling' provokes
> amazement among the Gondorians.
" 'A Halfling,' answered Gandalf. 'Nay, not the one that
was spoken of,' he added seeing the wonder in the men's
faces. 'Not he, yet one of his kindred.'"
Clearly the guards know of the dream -- I wonder how widespread that
knowledge was in Gondor if the guards at the Rammas knew about it.
> Pippin's untimely revelation of Boromir's death does not cause
> surprise,
And we already know from Faramir why that is.
> but seems to prompt Ingold to allow them to pass.
I imagine that it was common knowledge that Denethor was fairly anxious
to get news about Boromir's death ;-)
<snip>
> "So Gandalf and Peregrin rode to the Great Gate of the Men of
> Gondor at the rising of the sun, and its iron doors rolled back
> before them.
>
> 'Mithrandir! Mithrandir!' men cried. 'Now we know that the storm
> is indeed nigh!'
This follows the pattern also seen in Edoras:
"'And even now we learn from Gondor that the Dark Lord is
stirring in the East. Such is the hour in which this
wanderer chooses to return. Why indeed should we welcome
you, Master Stormcrow? Láthspell I name you, Ill-news; and
ill news is an ill guest they say.'"
LotR III,6 'The King of the Golden Hall'
And again when they meet Ingold:
"'May you bring good counsel to Denethor in his need, and to
us all, Mithrandir!' Ingold cried. 'But you come with
tidings of grief and danger, as is your wont, they say.'"
And also later, before Denethor:
"'Dark indeed is the hour,' said the old man, 'and at such
times you are wont to come, Mithrandir."
Clearly Gandalf's reputation in the south isn't all that good -- I do
think that Denethor knows the truth; that Gandalf comes when he is
needed, but there I always feel this unstated accusation, 'why didn't
you come before?'
<snip>
> What is the reason for this sudden change in tone? The first
> encounter allows Tolkien to supply the reader with bits of
> information, while the second allows Tolkien free rein with a
> different style. Is this sufficient to explain the change in tone,
> or is this mayhaps an historical voice, the scene being described
> in a copy of the Red Book by a scribe of Gondor?
You offer two explanations; a story-external and a story-internal.
Looking back at the change in POV in book IV from Frodo to Sam, I think
that this is explained, both story-internally and story-externally, by
Frodo's growing absorption with the Ring and resulting distance to the
world around him.
These changes in narrative style can usually be explained both by
story-internal and a story-external arguments, and I think that this is
deliberate -- Tolkien needed these changes in style, and wrote them in
such a way that it also made sense story-internally.
In the encounter with Ingold, there was a need to give us some
information, and the tone was partially set by Ingold and Pippin with
Gandalf responding in kind (and Ingold had the right and duty to bar
the way for Pippin and question him). Once inside Minas Tirith,
however, Gandalf's mind is fully on the meeting with Denethor and he
doesn't have time to stop for these people: this is indeed the White
Rider, the Enemy of Sauron.
<snip>
> B) General comments
>
> - Synchronisation with Sam/Frodo storyline.
>
> There are two passages that remind the reader that we have gone
> back in time from the moment where we left Frodo, captured by the
> Enemy. As Pippin is riding with Gandalf: "He wondered where Frodo
> was, and if he was already in Mordor, or if he was dead; and he
> did not know that Frodo from far away looked on that same moon as
> it set beyond Gondor ere the coming of the day."
>
> I think this is a reference to the moment where Frodo looks at the
> moon setting over Gondor from the top of the waterfall at Henneth
> Annun, just before helping Faramir's men capture Gollum.
I agree -- and as Frodo spent the night of the seventh -- eighth of
March in Henneth Annûn, this fits well with the timing I gave above.
> The other synchronisation moment is: "At last they came out of
> shadow to the seventh gate, and the warm sun that shone down
> beyond the river, as Frodo walked in the glades of Ithilien,
> glowed here on the smooth walls..."
>
> This seems to be from the first bit of the journey to the
> Crossroads.
Indeed.
> These are nice moments, but are probably also needed to orientate
> the reader correctly with the timeline. Does this work? Is it easy
> to understand the timeline without looking at Appendix B?
I don't think so -- not in details, anyway. We get these occasional
synchronisation bits, but it is far easier to follow the timeline using
appendix B (and having Fonstad's atlas with the 'best guess' routes
marked out helps a lot, too).
> - This chapter comes after 10 chapters, 183 pages, and 16 days of
> following the journey of Frodo and Sam some 200 miles from the
> Emyn Muil to Cirith Ungol. The dates of this chapter versus the
> Sam and Frodo events are:
I've added a few things.
> March 5 Frodo hides near the Black Gate and leaves at dusk.
> March 5 Gandalf and Pippin ride from near Isengard at night.
March 6: Gandalf and Pippen spends the day in Edoras
March 6: Aragorn and Théoden "overtaken by the Dúnedain in the
early hours"
> March 7 Pippin sees moon over White Mountains.
> March 7 Frodo sees moon setting over Gondor.
March 7: "Aragorn comes to Dunharrow at nightfall."
March 7: Gandalf and Pippin meets Hirgon et Al. carrying the
Red Arrow to Théoden.
March 8: "Aragorn takes the 'Paths of the Dead' at daybreak."
March 8: "Frodo leaves Henneth Annûn."
> March 9 Gandalf and Pippin reach Minas Tirith at dawn.
> March 9 Frodo walking in Ithilien sunlight after leaving Henneth
> Annun.
March 9: "Aragorn sets out from Erech."
March 9: Frodo reaches the cross-roads at dusk.
March 9: Théoden, Merry, Éomer and the rest of their party reach
Dunharrow.
> March 9 (night) Gandalf says there will be no dawn.
> March 10 The Dawnless Day. Frodo sees the Morgul host set forth.
<snip>
> - Meaning of 'wont' (noun and verb).
>
> The word 'wont' is used several times in this chapter. It seems to
> mean 'custom' or 'accustomed' as in: "But you come with tidings of
> grief and danger, as is your wont, they say."; and "at such times
> you are wont to come, Mithrandir."
>
> Does anyone know what the etymology of this word is? Anything
> similar in other languages?
Michele has already kindly provided the etymology of "wont", which
seems related to German "wohnen" (to dwell), so I went a bit further in
my studies ;-)
There's a Danish word "vane" meaning 'habit' or 'custom' (with the
corresponding verb "vænne" -- to grow used to or accustomed to), which
appears to have the same origin (German "Gewohnheit" and "gewöhnen").
<http://www.hist.uib.no/kalkar/>
(Choose "BLA I ORDBOKA" and select "Band IV" and page 727)
Now I begin wondering whether this is related to the name of the race
of gods that preceded the Aesir in the Nordic countries (and from which
Frey and Freya came): the "Vaner" . . .
<snip>
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to.
- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
Raven
news:VvQqd.26183$up1....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Pippin's recollections also include coming to a silent town and a great
> empty house on a hill, with a pale gleam of gold in the dawn. Do you
> think Tolkien is right to not say clearly that this is Edoras, and
> instead maintain a dreamlike atmosphere?
Emphatically yes. Partly it produces more atmosphere than merely
relating along the lines of "...then they came to Edoras, where Gandalf gave
some orders, then the winged shadow flew over them, then he slept in a
corner, then they sped eastwards again, then they...". Partly it chimes
well with the whole of the chapter, namely telling it from Pippin's
viewpoint. Pippin had never been to Edoras, which was but a name to him. He
possibly didn't realize until later that this silent town had *been* Edoras.
> Are these three riders the errand-riders of Gondor, bearing the Red
> Arrow to Theoden? In later chapters we read of Hirgon presenting the Red
> Arrow to Theoden, and later still we hear of two dead errand-riders, one
> of whom was almost certainly Hirgon. Are these all the same people?
Very probably. Though in "The Muster of Rohan" we see only two, and only
two are seen slain when the host of Rohan approaches Mundburg. It may be
that the third had errands further west, or that he returned to Gondor
through the Gap of Rohan. Or he may have remained at Edoras when Hirgon and
the other went to the Hold, and when they were met by the enemy during their
return one of the three escaped while his companions were hewn down.. Why
the escaping man didn't rejoin Théoden's host is then a mystery,
particularly considering the important news that he now bore. Perhaps he
*was* slain, only in a different place where his body was not seen by the
Rohirrim. Or perhaps he had to flee far out of the way back towards Edoras.
One possibility is of course that he was a man of Rohan, accompanying
Denethor's messengers, either because he was sort of an ambassador in Minas
Tirith or because he had by chance had an errand there and it was arranged
that he accompany Hirgon and his companion since they were all three going
to the same place anyway.
Funny if Denethor should send three horsemen to carry a message. One
would suffice to bear the Red Arrow and Denethor's words, with a companion
for backup. Three would be one too many - or a hundred too few, if fighting
were expected.
> What is the reason for this sudden change in tone? The first encounter
> allows Tolkien to supply the reader with bits of information, while the
> second allows Tolkien free rein with a different style. Is this
> sufficient to explain the change in tone, or is this mayhaps an
> historical voice, the scene being described in a copy of the Red Book by
> a scribe of Gondor?
Story-internally, it may be that Gandalf needed a pass from the commander
at the border, which turned out to be Ingold at the Rammas, but once he had
that, he felt permitted to wield his authority until he reached Ingold's
superiour, namely Denethor. Or that his pass and permission from Ingold
included a request to see Denethor as swiftly as he could, and then he used
authority derived through Ingold from Denethor himself to make the swiftest
way.
> And, most interestingly for me: why did Gandalf take Pippin
> with him to Denethor? Was this a calculated risk, or a
> necessary action? Story-externally, the reason seems clear,
> but story-internally did Gandalf realise that Denethor would
> demand to speak to Pippin?
Of course Denethor would demand to see Pippin, who, along with Merry, saw
Boromir fall. He would have considered it very odd for Gandalf to stash
such a one away - before Gandalf even had a place to stash him, at that, as
Gandalf and Pippin were shown to the lodgings prepared for them only after
they had seen the Steward. For Gandalf it would have been comparable to
addressing Denethor with "Hullo, old fogey" - it would have accomplished
nothing good and much bad.
Cuervo.
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> skrev
<snip>
>> Are these three riders the errand-riders of Gondor, bearing the Red
>> Arrow to Theoden? In later chapters we read of Hirgon presenting the
>> Red Arrow to Theoden, and later still we hear of two dead
>> errand-riders, one of whom was almost certainly Hirgon. Are these
>> all the same people?
>
> Very probably. Though in "The Muster of Rohan" we see only two,
> and only two are seen slain when the host of Rohan approaches
> Mundburg. It may be that the third [...]
It is interesting to note that the historical analogue is with the
errand-riders sent by Cirion to Eorl. Looking in Unfinished Tales, we
see that Cirion sent three groups of two messengers. In the event, only
one of those six errand-riders made it there and back safely. Maybe the
tradition of sending pairs of riders out was maintained and the third
rider is a mystery here, or the 3x2 strategy was replaced by a 1x3
strategy. Hmm.
>> What is the reason for this sudden change in tone? The first
>> encounter allows Tolkien to supply the reader with bits of
>> information, while the second allows Tolkien free rein with a
>> different style. Is this sufficient to explain the change in tone?
>
> Story-internally, it may be that Gandalf needed a pass from the
> commander at the border, which turned out to be Ingold at the Rammas,
I feel that Gandalf could have acted at the Rammas Echor in the same way
that he did at the gates: cried out in a commanding voice that they
should let him pass. In fact, the delay (ignoring story-external
reasons) meant that Gandalf could gather news and give news himself, and
maybe the later scene can be explained simply by the fact that Ingold
has sent a rider on ahead to warn the guards at the gates of Minas
Tirith. Except that we are specifically told that "men fell back before
the command of his voice and did not question him" (or something like
that).
It is worth noting that Denethor does not seem overly surprised when
they enter the throne room. Either he is using his 'long sight', or he
has been using the palantir, or messages have gone ahead before Gandalf
and Pippin. Denethor says "it has been told to me that you bring with
you one who saw my son die".
aelfwina
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VvQqd.26183$up1....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
> Book 5, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith
>
> To read previous Chapter of the Week discussions, or to sign up to
> introduce a future chapter, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org
>
> Chapter Summary
> ===============
One of my favorite quotes is that last paragraph of "The Palantir", and it
moves so smoothly into the beginning of this chapter, that one could easily
skip directly here, and not feel that one has missed a beat. I'm wondering
if he wrote them consecutively? Any hints in HoME?
>
> [Beacons and Errand-riders]
>
> As Pippin and Gandalf ride on, Pippin suddenly sees fire on the hills to
> their right. Gandalf explains what they are: "On, Shadowfax! We must
> hasten. Time is short. See! The beacons of Gondor are alight, calling
> for aid. War is kindled. See, there is the fire on Amon Dîn, and flame
> on Eilenach; and there they go speeding west: Nardol, Erelas,
> Min-Rimmon, Calenhad, and the Halifirien on the borders of Rohan."
>
> But Shadowfax slows to a walk and neighs in greeting as three horsemen
> ride past: "presently the thudding of hoofs was heard, and three riders
> swept up and passed like flying ghosts in the moon and vanished into the
> West. Then Shadowfax gathered himself together and sprang away, and the
> night flowed over him like a roaring wind."
>
> Are these three riders the errand-riders of Gondor, bearing the Red
> Arrow to Theoden? In later chapters we read of Hirgon presenting the Red
> Arrow to Theoden, and later still we hear of two dead errand-riders, one
> of whom was almost certainly Hirgon. Are these all the same people?
I had always assumed that it was the errand-riders, and had never before
paid any attention to the number discrepancy! The things one notices in
these CotW discussions! Now I'm going to have to figure this out!
It's a feeling to me of ever-increasing urgency, the closer they approach to
the City. In the first, Gandalf argues his passage, and in the second he
simply demands it; it's as though the closer they get, the more he senses
all is not right.
>
> [Minas Tirith and its surrounds]
>
> Before Pippin and Gandalf reach Minas Tirith there is a long descriptive
> passage describing the appearance of the Pelennor, farmlands rising up
> in terraces from the River Anduin to the city of Minas Tirith, located
> on a shoulder of Mount Mindolluin, last of the White Mountains. There is
> an even longer description of the city itself and its seven walls rising
> to the Citadel at its peak. Pippin reacts with awe and wonder, though as
> Pippin rides with Gandalf through the streets we read that in fact: "it
> was in truth falling year by year into decay..."
>
> What impressions do you get from the descriptions of Minas Tirith?
I've always had my reactions tied in with Pippin's POV, that sense of awe
and amazement. I feel, with him, all wide-eyed and anxious.
>
> [Guards and a dead tree]
>
> As Pippin and Gandalf pass into the Citadel, we read about the Guards at
> the gate and the emblems that they bear: "Upon the black surcoats were
> embroidered in white a tree blossoming like snow beneath a silver crown
> and many-pointed stars. This was the livery of the heirs of Elendil, and
> none wore it now in all Gondor, save the Guards of the Citadel before
> the Court of the Fountain where the White Tree once had grown." As
> Gandalf strides onwards across the Court of the Fountain, Pippin sees
> that symbolic sight: "A sweet fountain played there in the morning sun,
> and a sward of bright green lay about it; but in the midst, drooping
> over the pool, stood a dead tree, and the falling drops dripped sadly
> from its barren and broken branches back into the clear water."
>
> Tolkien, through Pippin, reminds the reader of the rhyme of "seven stars
> and seven stones and one white tree". Yet more iconic imagery is being
> added to the reader's mental image of Minas Tirith. Is the reader, like
> Pippin, being overwhelmed by the ancientry and majesty of what is being
> depicted?
Absolutely, in my case. I remember the first time I read this being
completely drawn in by the picture being built in my mind.
>
> [Stone and Wood]
>
> After a short conversation (covered elsewhere) Pippin and Gandalf enter
> the throne room to meet with Denethor: "Pippin looked into a great hall.
> It was lit by deep windows in the wide aisles at either side, beyond the
> rows of tall pillars that upheld the roof. Monoliths of black marble,
> they rose to great capitals carved in many strange figures of beasts and
> leaves; and far above in shadow the wide vaulting gleamed with dull
> gold, inset with flowing traceries of many colours. No hangings nor
> storied webs, nor any things of woven stuff or of wood, were to be seen
> in that long solemn hall; but between the pillars there stood a silent
> company of tall images graven in cold stone."
>
> Pippin is reminded of the Argonath ("awe fell on him, as he looked down
> that avenue of kings long dead"), but Tolkien's words contrast the stone
> of this room with hangings and wood. Is he comparing it to Meduseld in
> Edoras, much as Gandalf has contrasted Denethor with Theoden?
Now *that's* something that had not occurred to me before, but knowing
JRRT's penchant for parallelism, it would not surprise me at all.
>
> [Gandalf and Tolkien in two moods - Part 2: Gandalf-Denethor]
>
> Finally, after a rising crescendo of descriptions, we reach the throne
> where Gandalf courteously addresses Denethor: "Hail, Lord and Steward of
> Minas Tirith, Denethor son of Ecthelion! I am come with counsel and
> tidings in this dark hour."
(snip of quotations from chapter)
>
> And Gandalf strides from the room with Pippin running at his side.
>
> Whew! What happened there?! Gandalf started off polite and courteous,
> but was mostly ignored by Denethor. Denethor appears grief-stricken, but
> is later accused by Gandalf of using grief as a cloak and interrogating
> Pippin. The scene ends with Gandalf striding from the hall without leave
> of the Lord he has come to counsel. What has gone wrong here? Can this
> be compared with the scene in Edoras where Gandalf successfully brings
> counsel to Theoden?
To me, we see Denethor's pride manifesting itself here. It seems as thought
he is trying to do a bit of one-upmanship with Gandalf, flaunting his
knowledge of things afar off, that by rights should come as news to him.
It is quite possible that this is a contrast to his encounter with Theoden.
Theoden *wanted* help, ultimately. It is clear that Denethor does *not*, at
least not any help that Gandalf might give.
I do think that Denethor's attitude shows that he did *not* have any inkling
as to what Gandalf's true nature was.
And also, on Gandalf's part, we see again this sense of urgency coming
through. He's spent several hundred years trying to orchestrate Sauron's
fall, and now that things are coming to a head, they seem to be snowballing
out of his control. So he hasn't much patience with Denethor's pretentions.
>
> [A grief-stricken old man? Pippin-Denethor]
>
> Pippin's first sight of Denethor is described thus: "At the far end upon
> a dais of many steps was set a high throne [...] But the throne was
> empty. At the foot of the dais, upon the lowest step which was broad and
> deep, there was a stone chair, black and unadorned, and on it sat an old
> man gazing at his lap. In his hand was a white rod with a golden knob."
>
> As Gandalf hails him, Denethor looks up: "Pippin saw his carven face
> with its proud bones and skin like ivory, and the long curved nose
> between the dark deep eyes; and he was reminded not so much of Boromir
> as of Aragorn."
I think here we're supposed to see the Numenorean strain coming tthrough.
>
> Denethor's response to Gandalf's hail includes: "But though all the
> signs forebode that the doom of Gondor is drawing nigh, less now to me
> is that darkness than my own darkness." Denethor reveals how he knows of
> Boromir's death, saying that he heard the horn of Boromir (as did
> Faramir) and he shows them the cloven horn that now lies in his lap.
> Looking back to an earlier chapter, Faramir said to Frodo and Sam: "And
> now the horn of the elder son lies in two pieces upon the lap of
> Denethor, sitting in his high chair, waiting for news." (The Window on
> the West)
>
> Is the impression here that Denethor has been overcome with grief and is
> just sitting in his throne room waiting for news?
That is the impression that seems to be given.
How long would he have
> been sitting here, neglecting the running of the city?
Apparently far too long, at least in Gandalf's eyes.
Why then does
> Denethor question Pippin so closely?
I get the feeling that he wants to see what Pippin saw, to picture in his
own mind his son's demise. Very morbid state of mind.
Most telling to me is his contempt for Pippin: "A Halfling still, and little
love do I bear the name..."
>
> "What say you to that, Halfling?"; "Tell me more! Why did no help come?
> And how did you escape...";
This part of the exchange is where I first got my own antipathy for
Denethor. On my first reading of the story, my reaction was anger that he
seemed to blame Pippin for simply being alive, that he seemed to not care
that Boromir thought Pippin (and Merry) worthy of his sacrifice. It seemed
to belittle not only the hobbits, but Boromir as well. My opinion of him
only went downhill from there.
"Whence came this [Pippin's sword]? Many,
> many years lie on it. Surely this is a blade wrought by our own kindred
> in the North in the deep past?";
Again there is this touch of contempt in his tone; he is startled out of his
absorption in his grief by the sight of the sword, but he doesn't seem to
credit that a hobbit--a "halfling" could be carrying such a thing.
"...speak and be not silent! Tell me
> your full tale, and see that you recall all that you can of Boromir, my
> son."; "Pippin never forgot that hour in the great hall under the
> piercing eye of the Lord of Gondor, stabbed ever and anon by his shrewd
> questions."
He is definitely giving Pippin the third-degree. It is really not very
courteous, but he does not seem to mind that.
>
> Gandalf later explains to Pippin: "Still the Lord of Gondor learned more
> from you than you may have guessed, Pippin. You could not hide the fact
> that Boromir did not lead the Company from Moria, and that there was one
> among you of high honour who was coming to Minas Tirith; and that he had
> a famous sword."
>
> This recalls Gandalf's warning to Pippin before they meet Denethor: "Be
> careful of your words, Master Peregrin! [...] [Denethor] will speak most
> to you, and question you much, [...] he will think it easier to learn
> what he wishes from you rather than from me. Do not tell him more than
> you need, and leave quiet the matter of Frodo's errand. I will deal with
> that in due time. And say nothing about Aragorn either, unless you
> must."
Yet clearly Denethor knows more than he is saying; otherwise his questions
would not be so pointed. The hints that Denethor has a palantir are so
clear on a re-reading, and yet so subtle the first time.
>
> When does Gandalf tell Denethor of Frodo's errand? How much does
> Denethor know of Aragorn, both before and after questioning Pippin? And,
> most interestingly for me: why did Gandalf take Pippin with him to
> Denethor? Was this a calculated risk, or a necessary action?
> Story-externally, the reason seems clear, but story-internally did
> Gandalf realise that Denethor would demand to speak to Pippin?
I don't think it would even have occurred to Gandalf *not* to take
Pippin--he really does not have anywhere in the City that he can safely
leave him, and it would have been a bit cruel to do so until he *did*.
>
> Also, who is manipulating who? Gandalf or Denethor? Is Pippin a pawn in
> all this?
I think that Denethor is *attempting* to manipulate Gandalf; Gandalf has no
need of manipulation--he is very straight-forward in his statements,
although he was careful in the information he chose to share. But he is
*always* that. And, indeed, yes, poor Pippin was very much a pawn.
I think the note on which Gandalf left Denethor was meant as an attempt to
get Denethor to see the big picture, and not just think of Gondor.
This is perhaps where we see JRRT's opinions of Denethor coming forth: in
Letters, he says Denethor fails because he is a mere "politician"--concerned
only with the power of his own nation, and not with the ultimate realities
of good and evil.
>
> The later pages of the chapter provide a marked contrast to the
> atmosphere in the throne room with Denethor, and we and Pippin meet,
> instead, Beregond and his son Bergil. What purpose do the Beregond and
> Bergil bits have, and how do they contrast with the Denethor scene?
Beregond and Bergil serve a dual purpose, I think; one of plot
practicalities--Pippin has to be fed, housed and clothed, and Gandalf is not
going to have time to do that.
But also to give us an idea of the "common person" of Minas Tirith: notable
that it is a soldier, for this is a City at War. And we are able to get a
perspective on what is going on from a less lofty POV.
>
(snip some neat timeline stuff)
> - Almost the whole chapter is from Pippin's POV (point-of-view). Some
> nice moments:
>
> "If you have walked all these days with closed ears and mind asleep,
> wake up now!" (Gandalf talking to Pippin before they meet Denethor)
Pippin seems to have been the least informed of the hobbits; Frodo, from his
education by Bilbo, probably would have known a lot of the history behind
Gondor; Sam would have been keeping his eyes and ears open; Merry studied
the maps, and also was very observant. Pippin, on the other hand, has
mostly gone along with what others choose to tell him, and perhaps has been
a bit absorbed with his own feelings. This would be in keeping with the
fact that he is only a "tweenager" (using JRRTs statement that the age
differentiation was about 2/3, it would make him about 17 or 18 in terms of
maturity).
> "[Gandalf] came and stood beside Pippin, putting his arm about the
> hobbit's shoulders [...] Pippin glanced in some wonder at the face now
> close beside his own [...], he saw at first only lines of care and
> sorrow; though as he looked more intently he perceived that under all
> there was a great joy: a fountain of mirth enough to set a kingdom
> laughing, were it to gush forth." (Gandalf reassuring Pippin that he did
> his best when being questioned by Denethor)
I love this bit. It's another lovely hint of Gandalf's true nature.
>
> What do we learn of Pippin from this chapter? How are these new
> experiences affecting him? How is he coping being on his own, separated
> from Merry and the others?
We learn a great deal of him. He really is a most unquenchable hobbit. His
"hobbity-ness" comes through in his quest for a meal, and in his quick and
firm show of friendship to Beregond and Bergil. I also like the way he takes
Gandalf's charge to see to Shadowfax so carefully. The experiences are
oppressive to him--it must have been hard for a creature of the earth like a
hobbit to be cooped up in a City of stone, especially in the grim atmosphere
of waiting for War, and he says as much. He also admits to being horribly
lonesome for Merry--hobbits are social creatures, so the separation must
have been agony--yet on the whole he is coping and adapting remarkably well
so far.
>
> - Denethor's character.
>
> "A pale smile, like a gleam of cold sun on a winter's evening, passed
> over the old man's face."
>
> I wanted to say more about Denethor. But really this is just an excuse
> to quote the line above, which is just delightful! He is reacting to
> Pippin's offer of his sword in payment of the debt that Pippin feels he
> owes Boromir. There is a bit more about Denethor below...
>
> - Archaic speech of Denethor.
>
> Denethor uses words like 'verily' (as does Boromir at the Council of
> Elrond) and 'whence' and 'belie' and 'yea'. There is more of this in
> later chapters, and probably archaic sentence constructions that I don't
> know enough grammar to point out, but it is noticeable that Ingold too
> uses words like 'aught' and 'ere' and 'yea'. Beregond and Bergil's
> speech seem less archaic, but Beregond does use 'yestereve' and comments
> on Pippin's accent.
We also learn that it is that difference in usage the gave rise to the idea
that Pippin was a Prince. (And technically, I suppose, he was the closest
equivalent to one in the Shire--I think JRRT was being a bit humorous with
that)
>
> - The Numenoreans.
>
> With this meeting with Denethor, we now have four leaders of Numenoreans
> to compare. Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir and Denethor. Can we say anything
> about them?
(snip)
> Where in the book do we see this 'long sight' in Faramir and Aragorn?
There are several occasions when Aragorn seems to show such; one that
immediately springs to mind for example, is his reluctance to enter Moria.
With Faramir, there is, of course the dream, and also his seeming ease in
reading the characters of Frodo and Gollum.
>
> What impressions do people get from this chapter of Denethor? A grieving
> father? A kindly old man? An Aragorn-type figure? A scheming politician?
> A noble lord defending his city?
My impression from the beginning was of someone proud and haughty, and not
much concerned with the opinions of others. *Definitely not* a kindly old
man! And he does seem to be a bit of a schemer.
>
(more snip)
> The morale of the city seems strangely ambivalent. A winged Nazgul
> passes over and Beregond is stricken: "I fear that Minas Tirith shall
> fall. Night comes. The very warmth of my blood seems stolen away." But
> the sun returns and Pippin rejects despair and Beregond is inspired to
> say: "Nay, though all things must come utterly to an end in time, Gondor
> shall not perish yet. Not though the walls be taken by a reckless foe
> that will build a hill of carrion before them. There are still other
> fastnesses, and secret ways of escape into the mountains. Hope and
> memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green."
This does seem to me to be realistic: living in such an oppressive
atmosphere would tend to make one gloomy, but the average person is still
going to cling to any hope he can.
> The morale of the city seems also to be boosted by Pippin's very
> presence (even though he had not brought an army with him as rumour
> said), and the people of the city hail him as: "Ernil i Pheriannath"
> (Prince of the Halflings).
>
(see my remark on that above. I have a feeling that title was used to twit
Pippin for the rest of his life.)
> This rumour is quite funny: "...when the Riders came from Rohan each
> would bring behind him a halfling warrior, small maybe, but doughty."
> And how many halfling warriors did the Rohirrim bring with them in the
> end? :-) Actually, that one doughty warrior achieved something very
> important...
Amazing, isn't it? *grin* Just think what the Rohirrim might have
accomplished if the rumor had been true. They might not have even needed
the Black Ships and reinforcments, LOL!
>
> Later, Pippin befriends Beregond's son Bergil, only 10 years old but
> allowed to remain in the city to help where he may. We are told that
> "Bergil proved a good comrade, the best company Pippin had had since he
> parted from Merry", but we are also reminded that Bergil is still a
> child and perhaps does not understand the danger as much as Pippin does:
> "Pippin looked up, and it seemed to him that the sky had grown
> ashen-grey, as if a vast dust and smoke hung above them, and light came
> dully through it. But in the West the dying sun had set all the fume on
> fire, and now Mindolluin stood black against a burning smoulder flecked
> with embers. 'So ends a fair day in wrath!' he said, forgetful of the
> lad at his side."
Again, we are reminded of the age difference: between a 10 year old--very
much a child still, in spite of the need to mature early in such dire
circumstances, and an older adolescent, one who is being forced to finish
growing up quickly as well, but with not so far to go.
>
> And this, it seems, presages the coming of the darkness from Mordor.
> When Pippin returns to his lodgings the darkness is described as: "like
> looking into a pool of ink." And then Gandalf ends the chapter with the
> dramatic: "The Darkness has begun. There will be no dawn."
Gave me a shudder, it did, first time I read that.
>
> C) Other comments
>
(snip)
> - Silver trumpets.
>
> Finally, I want to point out something that I only realised recently. In
> one of the Peter Jackson films Boromir says something along the lines of
> "have you never heard the sound of silver trumpets calling you home?" I
> thought that this was just a nice addition to the film, but was
> pleasantly surprised to realise that it was almost certainly inspired by
> a line from this chapter: "...and high and far he heard a clear ringing
> as of silver trumpets." The full quote is given below, from the scene
> where Pippin and Gandalf ride to the gates of Minas Tirith at dawn.
I thought that was a lovely bit in the film, another place where he used
things from the book, transposed in time.
I will have to say that in the third film, when Gandalf topped the rise with
Pippin, and Minas Tirith appeared in the distance, tears sprang to my eyes.
That image was so perfectly like what I had always imagined over the years
that it took my breath away.
I could forgive PJ a good deal for a moment like that.
Barbara
Troels Forchhammer
AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
<snip>
>> - Archaic speech of Denethor.
<snip>
> This is an example of archaic language representing nobility.
Yes, that is my impression as well.
> Denethor is of high (though not highest) ancestry, and thus his
> language retains the most archaisms.
Aye.
> Beregond, while still a Numenorean, is not of any nobility, and
> thus his speech is closer in some respects to Pippin's
And Pippin's language would probably be just a bit more old-fashioned
than the average Shire Hobbit's -- not to mention the language of the
Gaffer ;-)
I think that there is also a bit of development in Pippin's language
until now: from
"'It is good for him. He's got nothing except what he
ordered us to pack. He's been slack lately, and he'll feel
the weight less when he's walked off some of his own.'"
I,3 'Three is Company'
to
"'Little service can I offer to your lord, but what I can
do, I would do, remembering Boromir the brave.'"
present chapter.
> (let's not get into a discussion how two different groups of people
> of obvious ethnic diversity would be speaking the Westron descendant
> of Adunaic closely enough that they can converse with each other).
English?
I know that the contact between the different English-speaking regions in
the world is far greater than the contact between the Shire and Gondor,
and that on the time-scale of the sundering of the two Dúnedain realms,
the British empire has only just been dissolved, but still.
The lack of difference could possibly be explained by the presence of the
Elves in Middle-earth (though I'm not quite sure how -- it's only a vague
thought that the Elves did try to stem the effect of time).
>> - The Numenoreans.
<snip>
>> "[Denethor]
[...]
>> has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much
>> of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far
>> off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try."
>>
>> Where in the book do we see this 'long sight' in Faramir and Aragorn?
>
> I think Aragorn displayed this rather well in Bree,
Not to mention App. A,I(v) 'Here Follows a Part of the Tale of Aragorn
and Arwen' where it is stated directly.
> and Faramir recognized both the wickedness of Gollum and the truth of
> Frodo's words.
And later, in the Houses of Healing, he instantly recognises Aragorn as
his King.
Other examples include Malbeth the Seer and Aragorn's mother, Gilraen,
and her mother as well.
>> What impressions do people get from this chapter of Denethor?
>> A grieving father? A kindly old man?
>> An Aragorn-type figure? A scheming politician?
>> A noble lord defending his city?
>
> Well, he was no kindly old man,
No, there isn't really any of that (a bit, perhaps, in his reception of
Pippin's offer of service), but there are elements of all the other
types. It was, I'd say, not for nothing that 'Thorongil' left Minas
Tirith before Denethor became Steward: "Indeed he was as like to
Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the
stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father."
Possibly the whole history of Thorongil played a role in making Denethor
into the man he became: "Therefore later, when all was made clear, many
believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and
deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger
Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to
supplant him."
This is cited as a reason why Denethor preferred the advice of Saruman
over that of Gandalf, and there could easily have been other reactions:
Gandalf was probably known to be friendly with the Elves, for instance .
. .
> but he was grieving over the death of a favorite son.
I wonder what made Boromir his favourite son. Was it merely because they
were, as Tolkien says, unlike, or were there other reasons as well?
> He's one of my favorite characters in all of Tolkien's mythos.
> We see, I think, the mightiest of Men save Aragorn still alive at the
> end of the Third Age.
I'm not sure where to put him in relation to his second son. Both were
wise and strong-willed, and both were (presumably) good warriors (if
comparing at equal age). The problem, as I see it, would be to compare
moral strength to actual (political) power.
<snip>
I agree with this praise of Denethor. His is a very complex character,
which is amazing given the short time he actually does get 'on stage' in
the book.
-
Troels Forchhammer
Ash nazg durbatuluk,
ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazgthrakatuluk
agh burzum ishi krimpatul.
- Tolkien in The Fellowship of the Ring
Troels Forchhammer
Raven <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> enriched us with:
>
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> skrev i en
> meddelelse news:VvQqd.26183$up1....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>>
<snip>
>> And, most interestingly for me: why did Gandalf take Pippin
>> with him to Denethor? Was this a calculated risk, or a
>> necessary action? Story-externally, the reason seems clear,
>> but story-internally did Gandalf realise that Denethor would
>> demand to speak to Pippin?
>
> Of course Denethor would demand to see Pippin, who, along with
> Merry, saw Boromir fall.
And Gandalf definitely realised this -- he even warned Pippin against it:
"Denethor is of another sort, proud and subtle, a man of far
greater lineage and power, though he is not called a king.
But he will speak most to you, and question you much, since
you can tell him of his son Boromir. He loved him greatly:
too much perhaps; and the more so because they were unlike.
But under cover of this love he will think it easier to
learn what he wishes from you rather than from me. Do not
tell him more than you need, and leave quiet the matter of
Frodo's errand. I will deal with that in due time. And say
nothing about Aragorn either, unless you must."
> He would have considered it very odd for Gandalf to stash such a one
> away - before Gandalf even had a place to stash him, at that,
[...]
And in particular given the laws of the land: Pippin /had/ to appear
before some authority to get leave to stay and move about in Gondor, and
that authority rested with Denethor (Faramir's declaration of freedom for
Frodo "in the realm of Gondor" is "under a higher authority" and is
limited in time. Apparently only the steward could make it permanent).
Hiding Pippin somewhere before appearing before Denethor would not only
have been inconsiderate (though Denethor did use his love and grief for
other purposes, but he did love Boromir and grieve for him in earnest) --
in particular after the exchange at the Rammas, but also unlawful. I
can't see Gandalf as doing either for political expediency.
> For Gandalf it would have been comparable to addressing Denethor
> with "Hullo, old fogey"
;-)
> - it would have accomplished nothing good and much bad.
It would have estranged them even more, and Denethor would have spoken to
Pippin anyway.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond
them is more than memory, Farewell!
- Aragorn Son of Arathorn, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
AC
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> in <slrncqplct.cp....@aaronclausen.alberni.net>,
> AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
>
>> of obvious ethnic diversity would be speaking the Westron descendant
>> of Adunaic closely enough that they can converse with each other).
>
> English?
>
> I know that the contact between the different English-speaking regions in
> the world is far greater than the contact between the Shire and Gondor,
> and that on the time-scale of the sundering of the two Dúnedain realms,
> the British empire has only just been dissolved, but still.
>
> The lack of difference could possibly be explained by the presence of the
> Elves in Middle-earth (though I'm not quite sure how -- it's only a vague
> thought that the Elves did try to stem the effect of time).
Let's put it this way. A thousand years between modern English speakers and
the later Anglo-Saxon period gives us two languages that neither group would
be able to understand. In 2000 years, Latin fragmented into numerous
languages, all mutually unintelligible. In something like 5000 to 6000
years, Proto-Indo-European branched off into numerous language groups, where
even many of the closely related ones (the West Germanic group, which, as I
recall began to separate from its ancestor around 2000 years ago) have
virtually no mutual intelligibility.
It's pretty obvious that the Hobbits were insular, and outside influences
must have, for many centuries, had a minimal role. We've already noted in
another thread that the Dunedain of Gondor did not have much contact at all
with their kin to the North. The Elves didn't seem to have anything to do
with anybody, and the only big-time traders that we hear of are the Dwarves.
It's the one thing about Tolkien's chronology that I find a little odd. The
vast distances of time (thousands of years) simply would have made all these
groups speak different languages by the basic mechanisms of drift and
change, even if Adunaic had been adopted by them as late as Elendil's coming
to Middle Earth after the Downfall (I'm assuming, of course, that Adunaic
spread much earlier, when the Numenoreans were colonizing the Northwest of
Middle Earth). It's odd to me because Tolkien was a philologist, and
probably understood how languages change and evolve better than most people,
and he shows he knows that by the various Elvish languages, all related.
I realize that having Pippin in Minas Tirith, or Frodo in Ithilien, unable
to properly communicate with the people of Gondor would have complicated the
story some great amount, but it's just a small thing that I think of
nowadays.
Michele Fry
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> writes
>
>> (let's not get into a discussion how two different groups of people
>> of obvious ethnic diversity would be speaking the Westron descendant
>> of Adunaic closely enough that they can converse with each other).
>
>English?
>
>I know that the contact between the different English-speaking regions in
>the world is far greater than the contact between the Shire and Gondor,
>and that on the time-scale of the sundering of the two Dúnedain realms,
>the British empire has only just been dissolved, but still.
>
>The lack of difference could possibly be explained by the presence of the
>Elves in Middle-earth (though I'm not quite sure how -- it's only a vague
>thought that the Elves did try to stem the effect of time).
Actually Tolkien discusses this in the Letters - I was reading one that
seems relevant earlier (one of the enormously long letters that Tolkien
so often seems to have written, in fact !). It's #144, to Naomi
Mitchison:
"What I have, in fact done, is to equate the Westron or wide-spread
Common Speech of the Third Age with English; and translate everything,
including names such as _The Shire_, that was in the Westron into
English terms, with some differentiation of style to represent dialectal
differences. [...] Languages, [...] that were related to the Westron
presented a special problem. I turned them into forms of speech related
to English. Since the _Rohirrim_ are represented as recent comers out of
the North, and users of an archaic Mannish language relatively untouched
by the influence of _Eldarin_, I have turned their names into forms like
(but not identical with) Old English. [... Snip discussion of Dale, Long
Lake and Dwarvish langs]
The Westron or C. S. is supposed to be derived from the Mannish
_Adunaic_ language of the Numenoreans, spreading from the Numenorean
Kingdoms in the days of the Kings, and especially from Gondor, where it
remains spoken in nobler and rather more antique style (a style usually
adopted by the Elves when they use this language."
Michele
==
"The purpose of art is to make the unconscious conscious." Wagner
Bruce Tucker
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:46:50 GMT,
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> > in <slrncqplct.cp....@aaronclausen.alberni.net>,
> > AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
> >
> >> (let's not get into a discussion how two different groups of people
> >> of obvious ethnic diversity would be speaking the Westron descendant
> >> of Adunaic closely enough that they can converse with each other).
> >
> > English?
> > The lack of difference could possibly be explained by the presence of
the
> > Elves in Middle-earth (though I'm not quite sure how -- it's only a
vague
> > thought that the Elves did try to stem the effect of time).
I think that's actually a large part of it. The language we're discussing
was the language of the Dunedain, and the Dunedain were the Men who were
marked by the closest association with the Elves and specifically with the
Noldor - and all the time-resisting effects that followed from that
association. The Hobbits' original language was long-gone, and the related
languages of the Rohirrim and the other northern folk appear to have
undergone substantial changes during the courase of the Third Age.
> Let's put it this way. A thousand years between modern English speakers
and
> the later Anglo-Saxon period gives us two languages that neither group
would
> be able to understand.
It's not the thousand years, it's the events *of* those years. The most
dramatic of those changes took place in the first two or three centuries of
that time, and almost all of them in the first six - I can read the
400-year-old King James Version today and it seems only slightly more
archaic than Denethor's speech.
> In 2000 years, Latin fragmented into numerous languages, all mutually
unintelligible.
Again, that fragmenting took place over a few crucial centuriess of social,
political, and economic upheaval. In 500 AD Latin was still Latin; by 1000
AD Italian, French, and Spanish were Italian, French and Spanish, and
more-or-less recognizable as the languages we see today. Put a Ring of Power
next door in Belgium, and they'd probably be reading Balzac in AD 5000 or
so. ;-)
> It's pretty obvious that the Hobbits were insular, and outside influences
> must have, for many centuries, had a minimal role.
They and the Gondorians were also very literate, which tends to keep
languages stable and uniform in the absence of disuptions from the outside.
Look at written Chinese.
Or Old Norse - my understanding is that modern Icelanders can read the
medieval sagas with little difficulty, and could probably even converse with
a medieval Icelander reasonably well. Scandinavia proper had different
influences, but none of it was ever conquered except by each other, and how
much do its languages differ from each other after 2,000 years? We have
plenty of Nordic types in this group - how about it? After several millennia
of evolution of Scandinavian languages, isn't it generally possible for a
Norwegian, a Swede, and a Dane to have a conversation without a translator?
> It's odd to me because Tolkien was a philologist, and
> probably understood how languages change and evolve better than most
people,
> and he shows he knows that by the various Elvish languages, all related.
What seems more off to me is the entire time-scale of the Second and Third
Ages, which makes me think it *must* have something to do with the Rings and
the effect of the continuing presence of the Elves and particularly the
Noldor. Tolkien was also enough of a historian to realize that normal
nations, empires, and dynasties, at least in our world, simply don't last
over 1,000 years, let alone 3,000 - even Egypt didn't have anything like the
cultural continuity Gondor or Aragorn's line had; no Pharaoh wore a ring
actually worn by another Pharaoh 1,000 years before, let alone 6,000, nor
did bloodlines last anything even approaching this.
Just for comparison, if I'm not mistaken, the purported line of descent from
Adam to Jesus covers roughly the same amount of time as that from *Elendil*
to Aragorn - and that's just the more recent part of Aragorn's ancestry, his
royal lineage, not counting the prior 3,500 years going back through the
distaff line to Elros and then to Beren and Tuor. And Jesus' line to
*David* - let alone to Adam - which is less than 1,000 years, is more a
matter of myth than hard documentation, as there's not even any independent
verification (that is, any record whatsoever outside the Bible) that such a
person as King David ever existed, much less that Jesus (leaving aside the
problem of independent verification of his existence) was descended from
him. By comparison, Tolkien's Dunedain have undisputed documentary proof,
including independent corroboration from the Elves, of the authenticity of
their royal traditions as well as much of the rest of their cultural
heritage, even after many thousands of years.
If I can suspend my disbelief at this astonishing feat of cultural
preservation, accepting that the language also remained relatively stable
(and among w few ragtag hangers-on as well) requires little more in the
bargain.
--
Bruce Tucker
disintegration ta mindspring.com
Huan the hound
in <col0hb$sl6$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>:
[snip]
>
> I think that's actually a large part of it. The language we're discussing
> was the language of the Dunedain, and the Dunedain were the Men who were
> marked by the closest association with the Elves and specifically with the
> Noldor - and all the time-resisting effects that followed from that
> association. The Hobbits' original language was long-gone, and the related
> languages of the Rohirrim and the other northern folk appear to have
> undergone substantial changes during the courase of the Third Age.
Did the kings and stewards speak Sindarin too? I'm not sure where I'm
getting this, just something in my memory.
[snip]
>
> They and the Gondorians were also very literate, which tends to keep
> languages stable and uniform in the absence of disuptions from the outside.
[snip]
> What seems more off to me is the entire time-scale of the Second and Third
> Ages, which makes me think it *must* have something to do with the Rings and
> the effect of the continuing presence of the Elves and particularly the
> Noldor. Tolkien was also enough of a historian to realize that normal
> nations, empires, and dynasties, at least in our world, simply don't last
> over 1,000 years, let alone 3,000 - even Egypt didn't have anything like the
> cultural continuity Gondor or Aragorn's line had; no Pharaoh wore a ring
> actually worn by another Pharaoh 1,000 years before, let alone 6,000, nor
> did bloodlines last anything even approaching this.
Wouldn't the exceptional lifespans of the Dunedain sort of compensate for
the extremely long time period? Could longer generations slow the change
of their culture to match another culture of a similar amount of
generations but less actual time?
[snip]
> If I can suspend my disbelief at this astonishing feat of cultural
> preservation, accepting that the language also remained relatively stable
> (and among w few ragtag hangers-on as well) requires little more in the
> bargain.
--
Huan, the hound of Valinor
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> It was [..] not for nothing that 'Thorongil' left Minas
> Tirith before Denethor became Steward: "Indeed he was as like to
> Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to
> the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father."
>
> Possibly the whole history of Thorongil played a role in making
> Denethor into the man he became [...]
<snip>
And of course Denethor and Aragorn never do meet again after 'Thorongil'
has departed from Gondor. I wonder what the first meeting between
Aragorn and Denethor would have been like (say, after the Battle of the
Pelennor Fields)?
From what we see of Denethor here, I would say that the meeting would
have had even more tension than this meeting between Denthor and
Gandalf! Imagine more of these staring matches with palpable tension
about to burst into flame! :-0
I vaguely remember that Aragorn is reluctant to enter the city of Minas
Tirith after the battle, and this may be in large part to avoid such a
meeting with Denethor. In the event though, it was not possible to
schedule such a meeting as Denethor was rather ashen. :-)
AC
> On 2004-12-01, Bruce Tucker <disinte...@mindspring.com> wrote
> in <col0hb$sl6$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>:
> [snip]
>>
>> I think that's actually a large part of it. The language we're discussing
>> was the language of the Dunedain, and the Dunedain were the Men who were
>> marked by the closest association with the Elves and specifically with the
>> Noldor - and all the time-resisting effects that followed from that
>> association. The Hobbits' original language was long-gone, and the related
>> languages of the Rohirrim and the other northern folk appear to have
>> undergone substantial changes during the courase of the Third Age.
>
> Did the kings and stewards speak Sindarin too? I'm not sure where I'm
> getting this, just something in my memory.
My hunch is that the most learned of the Dunedain would likely have spoken
Sindarin. I have this funny suspicion that the Dunedain of the North, even
after the collapse of Arnor and the petty kingdoms, may have been more
conversive in it mainly because of their close association to Elrond. It's
pretty clear that Gondor's ties to any Elvish populations had long been all
but abandoned.
>
> [snip]
>>
>> They and the Gondorians were also very literate, which tends to keep
>> languages stable and uniform in the absence of disuptions from the outside.
> [snip]
>> What seems more off to me is the entire time-scale of the Second and Third
>> Ages, which makes me think it *must* have something to do with the Rings and
>> the effect of the continuing presence of the Elves and particularly the
>> Noldor. Tolkien was also enough of a historian to realize that normal
>> nations, empires, and dynasties, at least in our world, simply don't last
>> over 1,000 years, let alone 3,000 - even Egypt didn't have anything like the
>> cultural continuity Gondor or Aragorn's line had; no Pharaoh wore a ring
>> actually worn by another Pharaoh 1,000 years before, let alone 6,000, nor
>> did bloodlines last anything even approaching this.
>
> Wouldn't the exceptional lifespans of the Dunedain sort of compensate for
> the extremely long time period? Could longer generations slow the change
> of their culture to match another culture of a similar amount of
> generations but less actual time?
That's as good an explanation as one can get, I suppose, and it does make a
bit of sense. I think it's important to remember that literacy does not
halt the evolution of a language. The written form can often stay very
static (writing is very conservative) while a spoken language evolves. One
only has to look at a word like "knight" to see that a Middle english
spelling survives even though the spoken language long ago moved past the
original pronounciation (I'm presuming it was likely spoken like it is now
by Elizabethan times).
It still leaves the problem of lesser folks like the Hobbits. Being so
inclusive, I would expect that the Hobbitish form of Westron to be much less
comprehensible by the people of Minas Tirith than it was. Unless, of
course, there was sufficient exposure to foreign elements (perhaps through
Bree and the South Farthing) to maintain a certain normative pressure on the
spoken language.
AC
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> It was [..] not for nothing that 'Thorongil' left Minas
>> Tirith before Denethor became Steward: "Indeed he was as like to
>> Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to
>> the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father."
>>
>> Possibly the whole history of Thorongil played a role in making
>> Denethor into the man he became [...]
>
><snip>
>
> And of course Denethor and Aragorn never do meet again after 'Thorongil'
> has departed from Gondor. I wonder what the first meeting between
> Aragorn and Denethor would have been like (say, after the Battle of the
> Pelennor Fields)?
Not very cordial, I expect.
>
> From what we see of Denethor here, I would say that the meeting would
> have had even more tension than this meeting between Denthor and
> Gandalf! Imagine more of these staring matches with palpable tension
> about to burst into flame! :-0
>
> I vaguely remember that Aragorn is reluctant to enter the city of Minas
> Tirith after the battle, and this may be in large part to avoid such a
> meeting with Denethor. In the event though, it was not possible to
> schedule such a meeting as Denethor was rather ashen. :-)
I suspect that Aragorn knew very well from past experience that Denethor
wasn't going to be a push-over. Clearly Denethor would have been little
impressed by any claims of being the Heir of Elendil and Isildur. It may
very well have lead to a political crisis, and at a time when Gondor was in
the final fight for its survival. Aragorn would not have allowed something
as small in the grand scheme of things as the kingship of Gondor get in the
way of fighting the Enemy. I expect that if he had pressed his claim,
something of a civil war would have occured as nobles lined up behind either
man.
>
> Christopher
Raven
news:col0hb$sl6$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com...
> Or Old Norse - my understanding is that modern Icelanders can read the
> medieval sagas with little difficulty, and could probably even converse
> with a medieval Icelander reasonably well. Scandinavia proper had
> different influences, but none of it was ever conquered except by each
> other, and how much do its languages differ from each other after
> 2,000 years? We have plenty of Nordic types in this group - how
> about it? After several millennia of evolution of Scandinavian
> languages, isn't it generally possible for a Norwegian, a Swede,
> and a Dane to have a conversation without a translator?
Easily. At least if you look at the Danish, Swedish and Norwegian spoken
by the upper crust in the capitals, they are more mutually intelligible than
dialects within each country. You can even find pairs of sociolects within
the large cities that are as different from each other as Queen's Danish,
King's Swedish and King's Norwegian. The written languages are of course
more uniform than the spoken tongue. If you look apart from the quaint
two-language system of Norway, and limit yourself to Bokmål, written Danish
and written Swedish, if you are fluent in one you can read the other two.
The other written language in Norway, Nynorsk, is rather more conservative
than the other three, though still much closer to them than to Old Norse.
There will be some words that have different meanings, of course.
"Glass" is something you eat on a hot day in Sweden, while it means the same
in Danish and Norwegian as it does in English; "frokost" (literally "early
food") means "breakfast" in Norwegian and "lunch" in Danish. Swedish and
Danish, like English, have adopted and adapted the French word for "potato"
("potatis" in Swedish and "potet" in Norwegian), while Danish uses the
German word ("kartoffel").
Icelandic and Faeroese, OTOH, are foreign languages to me. The tone and
to a degree the phonetics of these languages remind me of the more
conservative dialects of rural western Norway, but I will have to learn them
as I learnt English if I wish to understand them.
I would guess that Icelandic and Faeroese changed almost solely from
within, so to speak, while Scand was heavily influenced by German and Dutch,
and by English. But for the Hansa traders, Scand might have been changed
much less than the case has been, who knows?
Hrafn.
Shanahan
> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
> Book 5, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith
<snip>
> Pippin declares himself to be a
> hobbit,
"Man! Man! Indeed not! I am a hobbit and no more valiant than I am a
man, save perhaps now and again through necessity". Don't you just
*love* hobbits?
> Tolkien, through Pippin, reminds the reader of the rhyme of
> "seven stars and seven stones and one white tree".
Always wondered what the 'seven stars' are. Anyone?
> Pippin is reminded of the Argonath ("awe fell on him, as he
> looked down that avenue of kings long dead"), but Tolkien's words
> contrast the stone of this room with hangings and wood. Is he
> comparing it to Meduseld in Edoras, much as Gandalf has
> contrasted Denethor with Theoden?
Definitely contrasting Meduseld/Theoden with Minas Tirith/Denethor.
Two very different societies, and I think the coldness of Denethor's
court suffers by contrast with the warmth of Meduseld. I find the
references to the two peoples' different kinds of wisdom
interesting: Aragorn says the Rohirrim are "wise but unlearned,
writing no books but writing many songs", which preserve their
culture. Whereas the Gondorians have written down their wisdom, and
it has been largely lost to dust and the ages (as Faramir
testifies).
> Denethor cryptically says: "for though the
> Stones be lost, they say, still the lords of Gondor have keener
> sight than lesser men, and many messages come to them."
Tolkien added the "they say" to the final draft of this passage,
hinting that Denethor had, and had used, a palantir. It seems he
(like Gandalf) only gradually came to realize the importance of the
palantiri.
> Where in the book do we see this 'long sight' in Faramir and
> Aragorn?
Interestingly enough, I can't recall any instances of it in Aragorn.
Perhaps in Bree, when he sizes up the hobbits? Faramir shows it
when he looks into Gollum's mind.
> rumour said), and the people of the city hail him as: "Ernil i
> Pheriannath" (Prince of the Halflings).
Interesting quote from the appendices regarding why Pippin is
perceived as a prince, and why Denethor and Beregond remark on the
strangeness of his language:
"Peregrin Took, for instance, in his first few days in Minas Tirith
used the familiar forms to people of all ranks, including the Lord
Denethor himself. This may have amused the aged Steward, but it must
have astonished his servants. No doubt this free use of the familiar
forms helped to spread the popular rumour that Peregrin was a person
of very high rank in his own country." (apparently the rustic speech
of the Shire had dropped the deferential forms of second and third
person address)
> - Silver trumpets.
> Finally, I want to point out something that I only realised
> recently. In one of the Peter Jackson films Boromir says
> something along the lines of "have you never heard the sound of
> silver trumpets calling you home?" I thought that this was just a
> nice addition to the film, but was pleasantly surprised to
> realise that it was almost certainly inspired by a line from this
> chapter: "...and high and far he heard a clear ringing as of
> silver trumpets." The full quote is given below, from the scene
> where Pippin and Gandalf ride to the gates of Minas Tirith at
> dawn.
In that scene, indeed that line, in m-FotR, Boromir also quotes the
bit about the "Tower of Ecthelion, glimmering like a spike of pearl
and silver".
Ciaran S.
--
If I can't dance, it's not my revolution.
- e.g.
AC
Shanahan <pog...@NOTbluefrog.com> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> declared:
>> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
>> Book 5, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith
>
><snip>
>> Pippin declares himself to be a
>> hobbit,
>
> "Man! Man! Indeed not! I am a hobbit and no more valiant than I am a
> man, save perhaps now and again through necessity". Don't you just
> *love* hobbits?
Grrr... But Hobbits are still human!
<snip>
conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net
> Always wondered what the 'seven stars' are. Anyone?
There were nine ships which bore the last refugees from Numenor to
Middle-earth. Seven of these ships had a star on their banners to
represent the palantir they were also carrying. So it works out to be
a bit redundant.
"originally represented the single stars on the banners of each of
seven ships (of 9) that bore a palantir"
LotR index under 'star'
In most other instances, such as the emblem of Durin, when Tolkien
refers to 'seven stars' it is the 'Sickle of the Valar' (aka 'Big
Dipper')... though the Pleiades also get the same description in some
places.
Glenn Holliday
>
> Gandalf and Pippin then ride through the Rammas Echor, the out-wall that
> surrounds the Pelennor, the lands in front of Minas Tirith. Eventually,
> after riding for some time, they come to the gates of Minas Tirith at
> dawn. In stark contrast to the talking at the Rammas Echor, Gandalf's
>
> What is the reason for this sudden change in tone?
Story-internal: the outer guards are responsible for deciding
whether Gandalf and Pippin should be let into the city. The
guards at the city gate know they have been permitted to pass
(they could see Gandalf came through without a fight), so they
give more attention to Gandalf's purpose.
Story-external: Tolkien's shift in tone serves the purpose
of moving smoothly from the dream-mood of the ride, back into
the ordinary waking world with its challenges and decision, and then
even further into the historical and noble atmosphere of Minas
Tirith. Gandalf's behavior at Rammas Echor is ordinary diplomacy;
his behavior at the city gate is heroic.
> ...Is the reader, like
> Pippin, being overwhelmed by the ancientry and majesty of what is being
> depicted?
It had that effect on me. On first reading, I remember giving up
on the details and being swept along by the atmosphere.
> Whew! What happened there?! Gandalf started off polite and courteous,
> but was mostly ignored by Denethor. Denethor appears grief-stricken, but
> is later accused by Gandalf of using grief as a cloak and interrogating
> Pippin. The scene ends with Gandalf striding from the hall without leave
> of the Lord he has come to counsel. What has gone wrong here? Can this
> be compared with the scene in Edoras where Gandalf successfully brings
> counsel to Theoden?
Very much, I think. Theoden is redeemed, while Denethor fails
and falls. Coupled with this is the irony that Denethor is noble
Numenorean, while Theoden is king of a rustic people.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> skrev
<snip>
>> And, most interestingly for me: why did Gandalf take Pippin
>> with him to Denethor? Was this a calculated risk, or a
>> necessary action? Story-externally, the reason seems clear,
>> but story-internally did Gandalf realise that Denethor would
>> demand to speak to Pippin?
>
> Of course Denethor would demand to see Pippin, who, along with
> Merry, saw Boromir fall. He would have considered it very odd for
> Gandalf to stash such a one away
That presumes that Denethor knew that Pippin saw Boromir die.
I admit that Gandalf had to take Pippin to see Denethor, but what I
think is not so clear is whether Gandalf intended the fact that Pippin
saw Boromir die to be freely known.
Consider that when Pippin wakes up, Gandalf is telling Ingold that
Pippin is a man:
"His name is Peregrin, a very valiant man."
It is only when Pippin interrupts that 3 bits of information are let
slip:
1) "I am a hobbit"
[And Gandalf then adds the 'halfling' bit, but not much more, for Pippin
interrupts again]
2) "...one who journeyed with him [Boromir]..."
3) "...he [Boromir] was slain defending me from many foes."
[This news is presumably transmitted to Denethor: "It has been told to
me that you bring with you one who saw my son die." - though can this
news _really_ have reached him from Ingold before Gandalf and Pippin get
to the throne room?]
While this does persuade Ingold to let them through, it also now means
that Gandalf _has_ to present Pippin as one who can tell of Boromir and
the Fellowship, rather than 'just' a halfling "come from the storming of
Isengard". I'm not saying that Gandalf would necessarily have done so,
but until Pippin opened his mouth, Gandalf might have had the option of
presenting the news of Boromir's death himself, rather then entrusting
it to Pippin. He could have just told Pippin to be quiet, though
admittedly under Denethor's keen gaze that subterfuge by omission would
not have lasted long.
The 'new' strategy (if it was not the strategy all along) was to
recognise that Denethor would now be _very_ interested in Pippin, and to
tell Pippin to be cautious and not mention Aragorn. Gandalf openly
declares that they will tell Denthor of Boromir's death ("The news of
that grief should have been told first to the father."; "when bringing
the news of the death of his heir to a mighty lord"), but not who will
do the telling. Thanks to Pippin's words at the Rammas Echor, he gets
that task, but Gandalf also has to solve a new puzzle, which is how did
Denethor know of Boromir's death:
"'It has been guessed already,' said Ingold; 'for there have been
strange portents here of late.'" AND [Gandalf] "But you speak of his
death. You have had news of that ere we came?" AND [Denethor] "I have
received this"
And it is from that point on that the conversation spirals out of
Gandalf's control, and he is left fuming on the sidelines as Denethor
questions Pippin. I don't think this is what Gandalf intended. Which is
why I got to wondering about how Gandalf might have tried to guide the
conversation.
AC
Larry Swain <thes...@operamail.com> wrote:
>
>
> AC wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:48:37 -0800,
>> Shanahan <pog...@NOTbluefrog.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> declared:
>>>
>>>>Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
>>>>Book 5, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>> Pippin declares himself to be a
>>>>hobbit,
>>>
>>>"Man! Man! Indeed not! I am a hobbit and no more valiant than I am a
>>>man, save perhaps now and again through necessity". Don't you just
>>>*love* hobbits?
>>
>>
>>
>> Grrr... But Hobbits are still human!
>>
>> <snip>
>>
> along the lines that Hobbits are meant to be off the same tree as
> humans, a different branch of the tree, yes, but not a different tree
> (elves, dwarves, ents, eagles etc).
By human I mean that they are of the Second Born. Odd characteristics like
fuzzy feet are only window dressing. Sometimes I rather suspect that
Hobbits themselves insist upon marking themselves as apart from Men, though
from what I can see, the Druedain and the Numenoreans have characteristics
far more out of the norm than Hobbits.
Larry Swain
AC wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:08:15 -0600,
> Larry Swain <thes...@operamail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>AC wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:48:37 -0800,
>>>Shanahan <pog...@NOTbluefrog.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> declared:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
>>>>>Book 5, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith
>>>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>>Pippin declares himself to be a
>>>>>hobbit,
>>>>
>>>>"Man! Man! Indeed not! I am a hobbit and no more valiant than I am a
>>>>man, save perhaps now and again through necessity". Don't you just
>>>>*love* hobbits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Grrr... But Hobbits are still human!
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>I don't have the Letters handy, but as I recall Tolkien says something
>>along the lines that Hobbits are meant to be off the same tree as
>>humans, a different branch of the tree, yes, but not a different tree
>>(elves, dwarves, ents, eagles etc).
>
>
> By human I mean that they are of the Second Born.
Thought I said that.
Larry Swain
AC wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:48:37 -0800,
> Shanahan <pog...@NOTbluefrog.com> wrote:
>
>>Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> declared:
>>
>>>Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
>>>Book 5, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> Pippin declares himself to be a
>>>hobbit,
>>
>>"Man! Man! Indeed not! I am a hobbit and no more valiant than I am a
>>man, save perhaps now and again through necessity". Don't you just
>>*love* hobbits?
>
>
>
> Grrr... But Hobbits are still human!
>
> <snip>
>
Christopher Kreuzer
wrote:
> Shanahan wrote:
>
>> Always wondered what the 'seven stars' are. Anyone?
>
> There were nine ships which bore the last refugees from Numenor to
> Middle-earth. Seven of these ships had a star on their banners to
> represent the palantir they were also carrying. So it works out to be
> a bit redundant.
I vaguely remember a letter or something where Tolkien said that the
rhyme came before the stories that sprang from it. Though I may be
making this up entirely! Can anyone confirm?
<rummages in Letters>
Aha! Letter 163 to W.H. Auden (1955):
"I knew nothing of the /Palantirí/, though the moment the Orthanc-stone
was cast from the window, I recognised it, and knew the meaning of the
'rhyme of lore' that had been running in my mind: /seven stars and seven
stones and one white tree./ These rhymes and names will crop up; but
they do not always explain themselves. I have yet to discover anything
about the cats of Queen Berúthiel"
Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three,
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one white tree.
The numbers three and seven, and the objects (stars and stones) may have
emerged from the need for rhyme (hence three for sea and tree) and for
alliteration (hence stone and stars). The story is then created by
filling in what these stones do and what the stars are for.
The story of the stones turns out to be crucial to the plot of LotR. The
stars on the other hand turn out to be just adornment, symbolically
representing the stones (palantirí). Though stars have great historical
symbolism in Middle-earth.
> "originally represented the single stars on the banners of each of
> seven ships (of 9) that bore a palantir"
> LotR index under 'star'
And used further elsewhere in the story:
Seven stars on Aragorn's banner and on the livery of the Guards of the
Citadel (which is what prompts Pippin's memory, along with the dead
white tree). Also seven stars on the design on Anduril, and seven gems
of adament in Aragorn's crown. All symbolising the same thing.
> In most other instances, such as the emblem of Durin, when Tolkien
> refers to 'seven stars' it is the 'Sickle of the Valar' (aka 'Big
> Dipper')... though the Pleiades also get the same description in some
> places.
I don't think it is too much of a stretch to identify the gifting of
seven palantirí to Amandil, Lord of Andúnië and father of Elendil, with
the seven stars in the sky. It is a number that is highly symbolic.
Shanahan
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
>> Book 5, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith
[re Denethor's interrogation of Pippin]
> And, indeed, yes, poor
> Pippin was very much a pawn.
I love this line:
"Indeed you did your best," said the wizard, "and I hope that it may
be long before you find yourself in such a tight corner again
between two such terrible old men."
Ciaran S.
--
"I don't have any problems with women seeing me
as their ideal bit of 'rough'. Why would I?"
-sean bean
Troels Forchhammer
aelfwina <aelf...@cableone.net> enriched us with:
>
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:VvQqd.26183$up1....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>>
>> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
>> Book 5, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith
<bigsnip>
>> What impressions do you get from the descriptions of Minas Tirith?
>
> I've always had my reactions tied in with Pippin's POV, that sense of
> awe and amazement. I feel, with him, all wide-eyed and anxious.
I can definitely relate to that. Númenor is mentioned already in the
preface and again in I,2 (Elendil, the Last Alliance, Isildur etc.) and
from there the might and majesty of Númenor and the Dúnedain is slowly
revealed: the heir of Isildur, Weathertop, the sword that was broken, the
Argonath, Amon Hen, Orthanc, the palantír, the evil beauty of Minas
Morgul . . .
At this point I already thought wondrously of Númenor and the Dúnedain,
so it didn't take much for me to be fully awe-stricken at the city of the
Dúnedain, despite the signs of its decline.
<snip>
>> Pippin is reminded of the Argonath ("awe fell on him, as he looked
>> down that avenue of kings long dead"), but Tolkien's words contrast
>> the stone of this room with hangings and wood. Is he comparing it to
>> Meduseld in Edoras, much as Gandalf has contrasted Denethor with
>> Theoden?
>
> Now *that's* something that had not occurred to me before, but knowing
> JRRT's penchant for parallelism, it would not surprise me at all.
Gandalf had already made that comparison:
"Théoden is a kindly old man. Denethor is of another sort,
proud and subtle, a man of far greater lineage and power,
though he is not called a king."
I'm quite sure that there's an intentional parallel and comparison.
What it is meant to convey (reduced to positive or negative), however, is
a bit more obscure. I get the impression of greater power, wealth, age
and majesty, but also of a colder reign: here the people aren't quite as
important as in Meduseld -- in the White Tower it is the Realm as an
abstract concept that is being ruled, while in Meduseld it is the people
who are being ruled (not that I necessarily think that this is true, but
that is the impression I get from that particular description).
<snip>
[Gandalf and Denethor]
>> Whew! What happened there?! Gandalf started off polite and courteous,
>> but was mostly ignored by Denethor. Denethor appears grief-stricken,
>> but is later accused by Gandalf of using grief as a cloak and
>> interrogating Pippin. The scene ends with Gandalf striding from the
>> hall without leave of the Lord he has come to counsel. What has gone
>> wrong here?
>
> To me, we see Denethor's pride manifesting itself here. It seems as
> thought he is trying to do a bit of one-upmanship with Gandalf,
> flaunting his knowledge of things afar off, that by rights should
> come as news to him.
That, but I think also that Denethor's old Thorongil-related distrust of
Mithrandir is asserting itself.
>> Can this be compared with the scene in Edoras where Gandalf
>> successfully brings counsel to Theoden?
>
> It is quite possible that this is a contrast to his encounter with
> Theoden. Theoden *wanted* help, ultimately. It is clear that
> Denethor does *not*, at least not any help that Gandalf might give.
I don't quite see it that way. I think that Denethor did want any help
that Gandalf could give:
"'Pride would be folly that disdained help and counsel at
need; but you deal out such gifts according to your own
designs. Yet the Lord of Gondor is not to be made the tool
of other men's purposes, however worthy. And to him there
is no purpose higher in the world as it now stands than the
good of Gondor; and the rule of Gondor, my lord, is mine
and no other man's, unless the king should come again.'"
Denethor was suspicious of Gandalf's motives, and he wanted any help to
be entirely on his own terms, but he did not, IMO, spurn the offer of
help and counsel in itself.
> I do think that Denethor's attitude shows that he did *not* have any
> inkling as to what Gandalf's true nature was.
That knowledge was extremely limited anyway; "[the Istari] belonged
solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond,
Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they
came."
I might have included Aragorn on that list (though probably not as
'discover' but rather 'suspect') -- if not before then at least after
Gandalf's return in III,5 'The White Rider':
" 'Do I not say truly, Gandalf,' said Aragorn at last,
'that you could go whithersoever you wished quicker than I?
And this I also say: you are our captain and our banner.
The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than
they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and
the abyss, and they shall fear him. We will go where he
leads.'"
It seems to me here that Aragorn has some suspicions that Gandalf might
be even more than he appears. He may not guess the truth, but I should
think that he guessed that Gandalf was some kind of emmisary from the
West.
<snip>
>> Why then does Denethor question Pippin so closely?
>
> I get the feeling that he wants to see what Pippin saw, to picture in
> his own mind his son's demise. Very morbid state of mind.
The wish -- I think we could even say 'need' -- to know the circumstances
about the death of a loved one is, I think, very natural. I know I
certainly felt that way when my father died (though glancing at the post
mortem report to accidentally see the weight of the brain was a bit too
much), and I don't find this preoccupation with Boromir's death at all
morbid. Denethor has a need to know how and why Boromir died in order to
come to terms with it (not that one comes to terms with it immediately
after getting the answers, but it does help speeding up the process) -- a
pity that it happened at the time it did as he didn't have the time he
needed, and consequently was still affected by it when his country needed
him to be clear and rational.
> Most telling to me is his contempt for Pippin: "A Halfling still, and
> little love do I bear the name..."
Again I see this more as a natural human reaction -- 'halfling' was part
of the riddle that sent Boromir to Rivendell and cost Denethor his
beloved son. He is sufficiently in control of himself to overcome this
distaste: though there's clearly an amount of amusement at this small,
rustic halfling entering his service, I also get the impression that
Denethor does grow to genuinely like Pippin.
>> "What say you to that, Halfling?"; "Tell me more! Why did no help
>> come? And how did you escape...";
>
> This part of the exchange is where I first got my own antipathy for
> Denethor. On my first reading of the story, my reaction was anger
> that he seemed to blame Pippin for simply being alive, that he seemed
> to not care that Boromir thought Pippin (and Merry) worthy of his
> sacrifice. It seemed to belittle not only the hobbits, but Boromir
> as well. My opinion of him only went downhill from there.
He doesn't, at this point, know the circumstances -- he has no idea that
Boromir was actually protecting this halfling, and though he could
probably guess (if given a little time) why the Orcs did not kill the
halflings, he would still at this point be perplexed.
Still, his preoccupation with Boromir, and his fierce pride in the
rulership of Gondor (and his own capabilities) aren't healthy, but they
move me rather to pity than to scorn or condemnation.
<snip>
>> "...speak and be not silent! Tell me your full tale, and see that
>> you recall all that you can of Boromir, my son."; "Pippin never
>> forgot that hour in the great hall under the piercing eye of the
>> Lord of Gondor, stabbed ever and anon by his shrewd questions."
>
> He is definitely giving Pippin the third-degree.
Certainly.
> It is really not very courteous, but he does not seem to mind that.
Hiding, as Gandalf suggested, under the cover of his love and grief for
Boromir.
" 'Are you angry with me, Gandalf?' he said, as their guide
went out and closed the door. 'I did the best I could.'
[...]
'Indeed you did your best,' said the wizard; 'and I hope
that it may be long before you find yourself in such a
tight corner again between two such terrible old men. Still
the Lord of Gondor learned more from you than you may have
guessed, Pippin. You could not hide the fact that Boromir
did not lead the Company from Moria, and that there was one
among you of high honour who was coming to Minas Tirith;
and that he had a famous sword. Men think much about the
stories of old days in Gondor; and Denethor has given long
thought to the rhyme and to the words Isildur's Bane, since
Boromir went away.'"
Gandalf's presence didn't help Pippin, though ;-)
>> Gandalf later explains to Pippin: "Still the Lord of Gondor learned
>> more from you than you may have guessed, Pippin.
[...]
And earlier Gandalf had said:
>> Do not tell him more than you need, and leave quiet the matter of
>> Frodo's errand. I will deal with that in due time. And say nothing
>> about Aragorn either, unless you must."
>
> Yet clearly Denethor knows more than he is saying; otherwise his
> questions would not be so pointed.
It does become rather obvious that Denethor knows about Aragorn -- that
Gandalf hopes to restore kingship to Gondor by an heir of Isildur. Given
the text in the appendix, it would seem likely that he also knows that
this person is the same as Thorongil.
> The hints that Denethor has a palantir are so clear on a re-reading,
> and yet so subtle the first time.
Yes, it's brilliant ;-)
<snip>
>> Also, who is manipulating who? Gandalf or Denethor? Is Pippin a
>> pawn in all this?
>
> I think that Denethor is *attempting* to manipulate Gandalf; Gandalf
> has no need of manipulation--he is very straight-forward in his
> statements, although he was careful in the information he chose to
> share. But he is *always* that. And, indeed, yes, poor Pippin was
> very much a pawn.
I'm not sure that there's any manipulation or even attempt at
manipulation involved. Gandalf does know Denethor's motives and I think
that Denethor is fully aware of that fact. Denethor probably believes
that he knows Gandalf's motives (to replace himself with Aragorn), but of
course we know that this only is a minor aspect to Gandalf -- a great
advantage if it could be achieved, but only incidental to his real
mission.
> I think the note on which Gandalf left Denethor was meant as an
> attempt to get Denethor to see the big picture, and not just think of
> Gondor.
Yes, Gandalf would like to have Denethor take a broader view, though I
don't think he had much hope for that -- certainly not in the short term.
> This is perhaps where we see JRRT's opinions of Denethor coming
> forth: in Letters, he says Denethor fails because he is a mere
> "politician"--concerned only with the power of his own nation,
> and not with the ultimate realities of good and evil.
" Denethor /was/ tainted with mere politics: hence his
failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him
a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was,
against another potentate, who had made himself stronger
and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather
than because he was ruthless and wicked. Denethor despised
lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between
orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as
victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a
long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the
terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of
east and south would have been cruel and vengeful. He had
become a 'political' leader: sc. Gondor against the rest."
Letter #183 -- I suppose that that was what you was thinking of.
>> The later pages of the chapter provide a marked contrast to the
>> atmosphere in the throne room with Denethor, and we and Pippin meet,
>> instead, Beregond and his son Bergil. What purpose do the Beregond
>> and Bergil bits have, and how do they contrast with the Denethor
>> scene?
>
> Beregond and Bergil serve a dual purpose, I think; one of plot
> practicalities--Pippin has to be fed, housed and clothed, and
> Gandalf is not going to have time to do that.
I suspect that this alone wouldn't have introduced us to Beregond and
Bergil. Tolkien seems to me to pay scant attention to such matters unless
they can be used for more important (to him) plot points.
> But also to give us an idea of the "common person" of Minas Tirith:
> notable that it is a soldier, for this is a City at War. And we are
> able to get a perspective on what is going on from a less lofty POV.
And I suspect that this is the primary motive -- to give us the less high
view of Gondor, its people and its ways. We need to see this from someone
who does not know Gondor -- Gandalf concentrates on other things;
important things, certainly, but not the kind of things that allow us to
get to know Gondor, but using Pippin allows the reader to get to know
Gondor together with the character.
<snip>
--
Troels Forchhammer
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men
are almost always bad men.
- Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887.
Christopher Kreuzer
> aelfwina <aelf...@cableone.net> enriched us with:
<snip>
>>> Also, who is manipulating who? Gandalf or Denethor? Is Pippin a
>>> pawn in all this?
>>
>> I think that Denethor is *attempting* to manipulate Gandalf; Gandalf
>> has no need of manipulation--he is very straight-forward in his
>> statements, although he was careful in the information he chose to
>> share. But he is *always* that. And, indeed, yes, poor Pippin was
>> very much a pawn.
>
> I'm not sure that there's any manipulation or even attempt at
> manipulation involved.
Maybe manipulation was the wrong word for me to use for what is actually
happening (though see quote below [1]). The one thing we can say for
sure is that, under the cloak of fair words, Gandalf and Denethor are
having an argument. They may be skating around the issues for much of
the scene, but by the end it is clear that Denethor is accusing Gandalf
of being manipulative, and that Gandalf finds himself immensely
frustrated by Denethor's attitude.
[1] Denethor does feel that Gandalf is manipulating things for some
other purpose (as indeed he is):
"...you deal out such gifts according to your own designs. Yet the Lord
of Gondor is not to be made the tool of other men's purposes, however
worthy." (Denethor speaking to Gandalf)
> Gandalf does know Denethor's motives
Does he? I think Gandalf did _not_ expect what happened in that throne
room, and it is only when he later finds out about the palantir that he
realises what has been going on. He may have suspected a lot of things,
but can be say he really knew these things?
Is it possible that Denethor's 'long sight' allowed him to see others
motives and desires more clearly than Gandalf the White? Maybe even
Aragorn's foresight before entering Moria was clearer than Gandalf's
sight (as Gandalf the Grey)?
> and I think that Denethor is fully aware of that fact. Denethor
> probably believes that he knows Gandalf's motives (to replace
> himself with Aragorn), but of course we know that this only is a
> minor aspect to Gandalf -- a great advantage if it could be achieved,
> but only incidental to his real mission.
And what does Denthor make of Gandalf's claim to be a steward caring for
all living things? Does he begin to suspect Gandalf's true nature?
It would be ironic if both Denthor and Gandalf failed to understand the
clues that each had revealed (warning: complete mangling of scene for
comedic purposes follows - with some semi-serious points):
Denethor: "Yea, though the stones be lost, they say, still the lords of
Gondor have keener sight than lesser men."
[Gandalf thinks: erm, I wonder what "they say" means? Oh look, Denethor
glanced at Pippin as he said that. ("Was it so, or had he only imagined
it, that as he spoke of the Stones a sudden gleam of his eye had glanced
upon Pippin's face?") Hey, didn't Pippin look in that stone or
something.... <gets distracted> Ooh look! *White* cakes, all for meee!!
("Then men came bearing a chair and a low stool, and one brought a
salver with a silver flagon and cups, and white cakes.)"]
Cunning distraction tactics by Denethor. :-)
But then Gandalf lets slips two clues himself, one about Aragorn and one
about himself:
"Unless the king should come again? Well, my lord Steward, it is your
task to keep some kingdom still against that event..."
[cue Gandalf's frantic thoughts: Oops, I told Pippin not to say anything
and now *I'm* about to mention Aragorn. Better add a quick disclaimer
like that "they say" one that Denthor used about the stones. I'm sure
there was something important I had to remember about that stone comment
by Denethor... Oops, Denethor's looking at me in a funny way, I'd better
finish my sentence.]
"...which few now look to see.
[Whew! Think I got away with that. Better add a polemic about being a
steward to distract him. He'll never guess what I *really* am!]
"<blah, blah, blah> all worthy things that are in peril as the world now
stands, those are my care...<blah, blah, blah>"
[Oops. Maybe that is going too far. Better wind up and get out of here.]
"...he turned and strode from the hall with Pippin running at his side."
:-)
>> I think the note on which Gandalf left Denethor was meant as an
>> attempt to get Denethor to see the big picture, and not just think of
>> Gondor.
Nah. He just messed up. See my 'alternative' scene above. :-)
> Yes, Gandalf would like to have Denethor take a broader view, though I
> don't think he had much hope for that -- certainly not in the short
> term.
It is interesting to contrast this scene (and presumably the later
meetings that Gandalf and Denethor and the other lords of Minas Tirith
have) with the way Aragorn and Imrahil (and Elrond through his sons)
defer to Gandalf's wisdom in 'The Last Debate' chapter:
"Let none now reject the counsels of Gandalf, whose long labours against
Sauron come at last to their test. But for him all would long ago have
been lost."
How close I wonder did Denethor's stubborn attitude and later madness
come to upsetting Gandalf's plans (ie. was Gandalf really in control of
the events in this book)? Indeed, how essential was Denethor's attitude
and madness as an unwitting contribution to victory (if at all)?
<snip>
Troels Forchhammer
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>> aelfwina <aelf...@cableone.net> enriched us with:
>>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
[Denethor and Gandalf]
>> I'm not sure that there's any manipulation or even attempt at
>> manipulation involved.
>
> Maybe manipulation was the wrong word for me to use for what is
> actually happening (though see quote below [1]). The one thing we can
> say for sure is that, under the cloak of fair words, Gandalf and
> Denethor are having an argument.
Quite ;-)
> They may be skating around the issues for much of the scene, but by
> the end it is clear that Denethor is accusing Gandalf of being
> manipulative,
I'll agree with that. The question is whether Gandalf actually is
manipulative.
> and that Gandalf finds himself immensely frustrated by Denethor's
> attitude.
Of course.
> [1] Denethor does feel that Gandalf is manipulating things for some
> other purpose (as indeed he is):
I suppose that Gandalf does, in some way, try to 'manipulate' events, but
I don't think he makes any secret of his motives, and my usual
understanding of 'manipulation' involves an amount of deceit, dishonesty
and the hiding of one's motives. It is on these items I wouldn't agree
that Gandalf was being manipulative.
<snip>
>> Gandalf does know Denethor's motives
>
> Does he? I think Gandalf did _not_ expect what happened in that throne
> room, and it is only when he later finds out about the palantir that
> he realises what has been going on. He may have suspected a lot of
> things, but can be say he really knew these things?
There's a difference, IMO, between the motives and the actions undertaken
to achieve the goal. Gandalf doesn't know all that Denethor has done to
fulfill his motives, but I still think that he does know precisely what
Denethor is working towards, what Denethor's priorities etc. are.
>> and I think that Denethor is fully aware of that fact. Denethor
>> probably believes that he knows Gandalf's motives (to replace
>> himself with Aragorn), but of course we know that this only is a
>> minor aspect to Gandalf -- a great advantage if it could be achieved,
>> but only incidental to his real mission.
>
> And what does Denthor make of Gandalf's claim to be a steward caring
> for all living things?
I've been wondering about that thing myself.
> Does he begin to suspect Gandalf's true nature?
I suppose that depends on what we mean by that.
There's a scale from suspecting that Gandalf is more than he appears --
neither Man nor Elf, but something else, to suspecting him to be an
emmissary form the Lords of the West and ultimately suspecting him to be
a Maia.
I think it's likely that Denethor took the first step, and it's possible,
I suppose, that he did expect "The West" to be somehow involved, but I
don't think it went further than that, though I'd be hard pressed to come
up with any good arguments for it ;-)
<snip parody>
;-))
But yes -- there's a good deal of not understanding the writing between
the lines going on, and yet we hear from Gandalf that Denethor learned
far more from Pippin than what he said.
But then we have the essay in UT telling us that Gandalf started to
suspect that Denethor might have used the seeing stone after Pippin had
looked in the Orthanc stone:
Undoubtedly Gandalf's haste to reach Minas Tirith, in
addition to the urgency of the time and the imminence of
war, was quickened by his sudden fear that Denethor also
had made use of a palantír, the Anor-stone, and his desire
to judge what effect this had had on him: whether in the
crucial test of desperate war it would not prove that he
(like Saruman) was no longer to be trusted and might
surrender to Mordor. Gandalf's dealings with Denethor on
arrival in Minas Tirith, and in the following days, and all
things that they are reported to have said to one another,
must be viewed in the light of this doubt in Gandalf's
mind[8]"
[8] "Denethor was evidently aware of Gandalf's guesses and
suspicions, and at once both angered and sardonically
amused by them. Note his words to Gandalf at their meeting
in Minas Tirith (The Return of the King V 1): 'I know
already sufficient of these deeds for my own counsel
against the menace of the East,' and especially his mocking
words that followed: 'Yea; for though the Stones be lost,
they say, still the lords of Gondor have keener sight than
lesser men, and many messages come to them.' Quite apart
from the palantíri, Denethor was a man of great mental
powers, and a quick reader of thoughts behind faces and
words, but he may well also have actually seen in the
Anor-stone visions of events in Rohan and Isengard.
[Author's note.]"
It is, I think, likely that none of them were actually fooled; that they
did see through these semi-veiled comments -- after all Denethor was
already convinced that Gandalf wanted to supplant him with Aragorn, and
Gandalf already suspected that Denethor was using the stone. In that
situation they might both have realised that the other was too important
to risk losing their support at this point, and therefore satisfied
themselves with this verbal sparring, avoiding a conflict that would
alienate the other.
<snip>
--
Troels Forchhammer
A good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read.
- (Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!)
Troels Forchhammer
>>
<snip>
>> Of course Denethor would demand to see Pippin, who, along with
>> Merry, saw Boromir fall. He would have considered it very odd for
>> Gandalf to stash such a one away
>
> That presumes that Denethor knew that Pippin saw Boromir die.
And avoiding that would have required a change at the Rammas -- some
other way of getting Pippin past the guards there.
<snip>
> While this does persuade Ingold to let them through, it also now
> means that Gandalf _has_ to present Pippin as one who can tell of
> Boromir and the Fellowship, rather than 'just' a halfling "come
> from the storming of Isengard".
Exactly.
> I'm not saying that Gandalf would necessarily have done so, but
> until Pippin opened his mouth, Gandalf might have had the option
> of presenting the news of Boromir's death himself, rather than
> entrusting it to Pippin.
I'll admit that I can't really imagine Gandalf deliberately withhold a
bereaved father the eye witness account from one who saw his son die (and
whom the son had befriended and died defending) merely because it is
politically more convenient . . .
> He could have just told Pippin to be quiet, though admittedly
> under Denethor's keen gaze that subterfuge by omission would not
> have lasted long.
That as well. And no matter how he managed to get Pippin past the guards
at the Rammas, he would still be obliged by the law to have Pippin appear
in front of Denethor, as Pippin would otherwise have been thrown in some
cell.
Gandalf came to offer counsels, tidings and help to Gondor; that would
have failed immediately if he had tried to break the laws of the country.
<snip>
--
Troels Forchhammer
Larry Swain <thes...@operamail.com> enriched us with:
>
> AC wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:48:37 -0800,
>> Shanahan <pog...@NOTbluefrog.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> declared:
>>>>
<snip>
>>>> Pippin declares himself to be a hobbit,
>>>
>>> "Man! Man! Indeed not! I am a hobbit and no more valiant than I am a
>>> man, save perhaps now and again through necessity".
>>
>> Grrr... But Hobbits are still human!
My impression is that "Man" (capitalized) in LotR refers to that branch
of humans which the Hobbits call 'the Big People'. This would, I think,
include also the Drúedain, and certainly the Númenoreans.
> I don't have the Letters handy, but as I recall Tolkien says something
> along the lines that Hobbits are meant to be off the same tree as
> humans,
There's the footnote to letter #131 (the long one to Milton Waldman)
which says:
"The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch
of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) -
hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and
are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk."
And it goes on to explain that they have no 'non-human powers' at all,
and the reasons for making them small.
One interesting (well, to me at least <G>) result of this is illustrated
by the foot-note to LotR App. A,II 'The House of Eorl' where we learn
that Éowyn "was known after in teh Mark as the Lady of the Shield-arm."
The note says:
"For her shield-arm was broken by the mace of the
Witch-king; but he was brought to nothing, and thus the words
of Glorfindel long before to King Eärnur were fulfilled, that
the Witch-king would not fall by the hand of man. For it is
said in the songs of the Mark that in this deed Éowyn had the
aid of Théoden's esquire, and that he also was not a Man but a
Halfling out of a far country, though Éomer gave him honour in
the Mark and the name of Holdwine.
[This Holdwine was none other than Meriadoc the Magnificent
who was Master of Buckland.]"
The point is that Éowyn was a Man, but not a man, while Merry was a man,
but not a Man ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would
be a merrier world.
- Thorin Oakenshield, 'The Hobbit' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
AC
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>
> The point is that Éowyn was a Man, but not a man, while Merry was a man,
> but not a Man ;-)
Tolkien's mythos creates these sorts of odd paradoxes. For instance, there
are mortals, and then there are Mortals, getting even muddier when you
consider Dwarves, who are mortal, but whose spirits probably don't depart
Arda.
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
[Denethor - Gandalf]
> But yes -- there's a good deal of not understanding the writing
> between the lines going on, and yet we hear from Gandalf that
> Denethor learned far more from Pippin than what he said.
>
> But then we have the essay in UT telling us that Gandalf started to
> suspect that Denethor might have used the seeing stone after Pippin
> had looked in the Orthanc stone:
Wow! This essay answers all the questions. I had totally forgotten about
this. Thanks for that.
> Undoubtedly Gandalf's haste to reach Minas Tirith, in
> addition to the urgency of the time and the imminence of
> war, was quickened by his sudden fear that Denethor also
> had made use of a palantír, the Anor-stone, and his desire
> to judge what effect this had had on him
What judgement do you think Gandalf _did_ pass on Denethor? It looks
like Gandalf still thought Denethor was his own man, and had not been
subverted by Sauron. Or maybe not?
> whether in the
> crucial test of desperate war it would not prove that he
> (like Saruman) was no longer to be trusted and might
> surrender to Mordor.
It looks like he never did: just went mad (though it makes little
difference apart from the moral judgement on Denethor). I guess that
discussion should wait until a later chapter.
> Gandalf's dealings with Denethor on
> arrival in Minas Tirith, and in the following days, and all
> things that they are reported to have said to one another,
> must be viewed in the light of this doubt in Gandalf's
> mind[8]"
Wow. So why didn't Tolkien put this in the story as published, if he
thought it was so important. I can only guess that he wanted to keep the
Anor palantir and Denethor's use of it a secret, for the drama of the
later scene where we are shown the Anor palantir.
> [8] "Denethor was evidently aware of Gandalf's guesses and
> suspicions, and at once both angered and sardonically
> amused by them. Note his words to Gandalf at their meeting
> in Minas Tirith (The Return of the King V 1): 'I know
> already sufficient of these deeds for my own counsel
> against the menace of the East,' and especially his mocking
> words that followed: 'Yea; for though the Stones be lost,
> they say, still the lords of Gondor have keener sight than
> lesser men, and many messages come to them.' Quite apart
> from the palantíri, Denethor was a man of great mental
> powers, and a quick reader of thoughts behind faces and
> words, but he may well also have actually seen in the
> Anor-stone visions of events in Rohan and Isengard.
> [Author's note.]"
I was going to suggest that Denethor might have seen events at Rohan and
Isengard, but then thought that this was too far fetched!! It does raise
issues about how clear such visions were, as certain events need to be
kept secret from Sauron and (earlier) Saruman. I wonder just how useful
these palantiri were for spying. I seem to remember something about
needing to be in line-of-sight with what you are seeing.
> It is, I think, likely that none of them were actually fooled; that
> they did see through these semi-veiled comments -- after all Denethor
> was already convinced that Gandalf wanted to supplant him with
> Aragorn, and Gandalf already suspected that Denethor was using the
> stone. In that situation they might both have realised that the other
> was too important to risk losing their support at this point, and
> therefore satisfied themselves with this verbal sparring, avoiding a
> conflict that would alienate the other.
That is the best analysis of the scene I've seen so far. Though the
reader will take a long time to realise this is what was going on: we
see the scene merely through the eyes of Pippin: two 'terrible old men'
arguing!!
Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
> I was going to suggest that Denethor might have seen events at Rohan and
> Isengard, but then thought that this was too far fetched!! It does raise
> issues about how clear such visions were, as certain events need to be
> kept secret from Sauron and (earlier) Saruman. I wonder just how useful
> these palantiri were for spying. I seem to remember something about
> needing to be in line-of-sight with what you are seeing.
Lately I have been wondering if Denethor also got news
about Aragorn because of Aragorn's use of the Orthanc-stone;
either because he saw him directly in his stone, or because
Sauron, enraged about Aragorn's control over the Orthanc-stone,
directed Denethor's mind toward looking at Aragorn and knowing
who he was. I can't remember whether JRRT or any of the
characters raises this possibility.
--Jamie. (a Dover edition designed for years of use!)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
Troels Forchhammer
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> The point is that Éowyn was a Man, but not a man, while Merry was a
>> man, but not a Man ;-)
>
> Tolkien's mythos creates these sorts of odd paradoxes.
That it does.
> For instance, there are mortals, and then there are Mortals, getting
> even muddier when you consider Dwarves, who are mortal, but whose
> spirits probably don't depart Arda.
Good example.
It all helps to keep us on our toes ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true.
- Niels Bohr, to a young physicist
Shanahan
declared:
>> I was going to suggest that Denethor might have seen events at
>> Rohan and Isengard, but then thought that this was too far
>> fetched!! It does raise issues about how clear such visions
>> were, as certain events need to be kept secret from Sauron and
>> (earlier) Saruman. I wonder just how useful these palantiri were
>> for spying. I seem to remember something about needing to be in
>> line-of-sight with what you are seeing.
The Stone needed to be oriented toward what you wanted to see, yes:
(all quotes from UT, 'The Palantiri')
"A viewer could by his will cause the vision of the Stone to
/concentrate/ on some point, on or near its direct line. The
uncontrolled visions were small, especially in the minor Stones
[...] But controlled by the will of a skilled and strong surveyor,
remoter things could be enlarged, brought as it were nearer and
clearer, while their background was almost
suppressed....concentration could enlarge and clarify the vision
till [a person] was seen in clear if reduced detail like a picture
apparently a foot or more in height, and recognized if he was known
to the surveyor. Great concentration might even enlarge some
detail....so that it could be seen (for instance) if he had a ring
on his hand.
"But this 'concentration' was very tiring and might become
exhausting.... Denethor sitting before the Anor-stone anxious about
Rohan....might place himself in a direct line looking north-west by
west through Rohan, passing close to Edoras and on towards the Fords
of Isen. At that time there might be visible movements of men in
that line. If so, he could concentrate on (say) a group, see them
as Riders, and finally discern some figure known to him: Gandalf,
for instance, riding with the reinforcements to Helm's Deep...."
> Lately I have been wondering if Denethor also got news
> about Aragorn because of Aragorn's use of the Orthanc-stone;
> either because he saw him directly in his stone, or because
> Sauron, enraged about Aragorn's control over the Orthanc-stone,
> directed Denethor's mind toward looking at Aragorn and knowing
> who he was. I can't remember whether JRRT or any of the
> characters raises this possibility.
Denethor would not have been able to 'eavesdrop' on Aragorn's use of
the Orthanc-stone, unless Aragorn willingly opened up communication
between their two stones. "The palantiri could not themselves
survey men's minds, at unawares or unwilling....thought (received as
speech) was only transmittable by one Stone to another in accord."
Denethor might very well have been able to guess that it was no
longer in the hands of Saruman, however:
"Whether he [Denethor] ever thus made contact with the Orthanc-stone
and Saruman is not told; probably he did, and did so with profit to
himself. Sauron could not break in on these conferences: only the
surveyor using the Master Stone of Osgiliath could 'eavesdrop'.
While two of the other Stones were in response, the third would find
them both blank."
And he might have been able to see Aragorn in Rohan, through the
Anor-stone, even have been able to see Aragorn holding or using the
Orthanc-stone (see quote above).
Ciaran S.
--
Beware all enterprises which require new clothes.
Troels Forchhammer
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>> But then we have the essay in UT telling us that Gandalf started to
>> suspect that Denethor might have used the seeing stone after Pippin
>> had looked in the Orthanc stone:
>
> Wow! This essay answers all the questions. I had totally forgotten
> about this. Thanks for that.
It does indeed answer a lot of questions -- I would, however, like to
know if there are any suggestions in the LotR history volumes of HoMe
that shows a little more clearly that this was also Tolkien's intention
when he was writing LotR ('The Palantíri' is from the mid-sixties[1]).
Not that I don't believe the contents, but it would be nice to know
whether these ideas were also present in the published text of LotR.
[1] http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hmch.html
>> Undoubtedly Gandalf's haste to reach Minas Tirith, in
>> addition to the urgency of the time and the imminence of
>> war, was quickened by his sudden fear that Denethor also
>> had made use of a palantír, the Anor-stone, and his desire
>> to judge what effect this had had on him
>
> What judgement do you think Gandalf _did_ pass on Denethor? It looks
> like Gandalf still thought Denethor was his own man, and had not been
> subverted by Sauron. Or maybe not?
Denethor never was really subverted by Sauron -- not to the extent of
abandoning how own objectives at least. He does, in the end, give in to
despair, but at this point I don't think he has given in yet.
I would guess that Gandalf does realise that Denethor has been using the
stone -- it is, after all (as you have said) quite obvious once one
suspects it, and he may also recognise some of the signs of the unhealthy
influence this has on Denethor: the strain of his confrontations with
Sauron, his pride and his focus on the battle between Gondor and Mordor a
s described in App. A,I,(iv) 'Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion':
" In this way Denethor gained his great knowledge of things
that passed in his realm, and far beyond his borders, at
which men marvelled; but he bought the knowledge dearly,
being aged before his time by his contest with the will of
Sauron. Thus pride increased in Denethor together with
despair, until he saw in all the deeds of that time only a
single combat between the Lord of the White Tower and the
Lord of the Barad-dûr, and mistrusted all others who
resisted Sauron, unless they served himself alone."
These things I would say that Gandalf guessed, including their source,
during the first few days in Minas Tirith during the War of the Ring, but
it is doubtful, IMO, that he did -- or even could have -- guess the
consequences for Denethor of the wounds to Faramir.
>> whether in the crucial test of desperate war it would
>> not prove that he (like Saruman) was no longer to be
>> trusted and might surrender to Mordor.
>
> It looks like he never did: just went mad
Exactly. "Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and mantained the
integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently)
mortal wound of his only surviving son." (UT 4,III 'The Palantíri' -- in
case someone doesn't have access to it).
> (though it makes little difference apart from the moral judgement
> on Denethor).
But isn't that an important issue in Tolkien's writings?
> I guess that discussion should wait until a later chapter.
Oh, well . . . ;-)
>> Gandalf's dealings with Denethor on arrival in Minas
>> Tirith, and in the following days, and allthings that
>> they are reported to have said to one another, must be
>> viewed in the light of this doubt in Gandalf's mind[8]"
>
> Wow. So why didn't Tolkien put this in the story as published, if he
> thought it was so important.
A good question, IMO. There are at least a couple of points I'd like to
discuss in this connection. This scene, as indeed the whole chapter, is
told from the PoV of Pippin, and I don't think that he would detect these
undercurrents, which would necessitate some kind of narrative shift in
order to make it work -- he could, for instance, have had Gandalf say
something about this in 'The Last Debate', but there is, I think, enough
back-story there (with Legolas and Gimli's account of their journey from
the Stone of Erech).
There are a few more hints in appendix A, but again it doesn't quite go
all the way -- there's some speculation about when Denethor began to use
the palantír, what the effects on him were etc. but the details about his
confrontation with Gandalf are missing.
This leads me to suspect that this might, at least in part, be after the
fact rationalisation by Tolkien -- something he himself only discovered
after long considering of this, and in the context of 'investigating' the
properties of the palantíri in general.
> I can only guess that he wanted to keep the Anor palantir and
> Denethor's use of it a secret, for the drama of the later scene
> where we are shown the Anor palantir.
Yes, he would wish to keep that information hidden, though perhaps 'only
hinted at' would be a better description. It is one of these situations
where one at the third, fourth or whatever number reading begins to
become suspicious of what is really going on. It is incredible that
Tolkien, who
rarely read a book more than once (letter #189), succeeded so well in
creating a work that requires multiple re-readings in order to grasp, and
yet is from the start so inviting to those re-readings ;-)
<snip>
> It does raise issues about how clear such visions were,
The UT essay together with notes is quite specific.
> as certain events need to be kept secret from Sauron and (earlier)
> Saruman.
As I read the UT essay it is very likely that Denethor had better control
of his stone than did Saruman -- I think that Denethor would have been
better able to 'zoom in' on distant events than Saruman, and thus he
could have seen details that Saruman would not have been able to see
(e.g. whether there were hobbits with the group of Orcs hurrying across
Rohan from Emun Muil).
> I wonder just how useful these palantiri were for spying. I seem to
> remember something about needing to be in line-of-sight with what you
> are seeing.
And there's also the concept of 'shrouding' that is not entirely clear --
it appears that there is another note on the palantíri that differs in
some details from the longer essay in UT (some of it is quoted or
recounted by CJRT in the notes to the essay).
>> It is, I think, likely that none of them were actually fooled; that
>> they did see through these semi-veiled comments -- after all Denethor
>> was already convinced that Gandalf wanted to supplant him with
>> Aragorn, and Gandalf already suspected that Denethor was using the
>> stone. In that situation they might both have realised that the other
>> was too important to risk losing their support at this point, and
>> therefore satisfied themselves with this verbal sparring, avoiding a
>> conflict that would alienate the other.
>
> That is the best analysis of the scene I've seen so far.
Why, thank you, gentle sir ;-)
> Though the reader will take a long time to realise this is what was
> going on:
I don't recall when I started to suspect that something had been going
over the top of my head -- it was certainly neither the second or third
reading ;-)
At some point I started to put together the various hints from around the
book [2], but it took some more for a fuller picture to emerge -- and of
course it wasn't until I read UT that the full 'truth' became visible.
[2] The information is distributed around LotR:
III,11 'The Palantír'
V,1 'Minas Tirith'
V,4 'The Siege of Gondor'
V,7 'The Pyre of Denethor'
V,9 'The Last Debate'
App. A,I(iv) 'Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion'
> we see the scene merely through the eyes of Pippin: two 'terrible
> old men' arguing!!
Precisely! It is so amazingly brilliant to able to reduce the scene to
merely the awe of this rustic hobbit over two 'terrible old men' arguing,
and yet hide between the lines both here and elsewhere a story of much
greater complexity. It's when I read stuff like this that I resolve never
to write any kind of fiction myself ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to
(a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks.
- (Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites)
AC
> in <slrncr92f2.1jd....@aaronclausen.alberni.net>,
> AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
>>
>> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 16:09:04 GMT,
>> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> The point is that Éowyn was a Man, but not a man, while Merry was a
>>> man, but not a Man ;-)
>>
>> Tolkien's mythos creates these sorts of odd paradoxes.
>
> That it does.
>
>> For instance, there are mortals, and then there are Mortals, getting
>> even muddier when you consider Dwarves, who are mortal, but whose
>> spirits probably don't depart Arda.
>
> Good example.
>
> It all helps to keep us on our toes ;-)
Or turn us into gibbering maniacs!
AC
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> in <wu1td.31426$up1....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
<snip>
>> we see the scene merely through the eyes of Pippin: two 'terrible
>> old men' arguing!!
>
> Precisely! It is so amazingly brilliant to able to reduce the scene to
> merely the awe of this rustic hobbit over two 'terrible old men' arguing,
> and yet hide between the lines both here and elsewhere a story of much
> greater complexity. It's when I read stuff like this that I resolve never
> to write any kind of fiction myself ;-)
It's one of Tolkien's best bits of writing, and a scene I look foward to
everytime I reread LotR.
Christopher Kreuzer
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
<snip>
>> we see the scene merely through the eyes of Pippin: two 'terrible
>> old men' arguing!!
>
> Precisely! It is so amazingly brilliant to able to reduce the scene to
> merely the awe of this rustic hobbit over two 'terrible old men'
> arguing
This got me thinking again about Pippin's POV, and I found this
intriguing comment when Pippin is thinking about Gandalf's origins:
"Treebeard had said something about wizards, but even then he [Pippin]
had not thought of Gandalf as one of them." (Pippin in the throne room
scene in the chapter 'Minas Tirith')
The Treebeard comment appear to be this:
"I do not know the history of Wizards. They appeared first after the
Great Ships came over the Sea; but if they came with the Ships I never
can tell." (Treebeard in the chapter 'Treebeard')
Pippin was, again, not paying attention! He might have been able to link
this to the "tall shops and tall kings" rhyme about the palantiri, even
though Treebeard is wrong and the wizards didn't come with the Great
Ships.
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Christopher Kreuzer
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
[Gandalf-Denethor]
>>> It is, I think, likely that none of them were actually fooled; that
>>> they did see through these semi-veiled comments -- after all
>>> Denethor was already convinced that Gandalf wanted to supplant him
>>> with Aragorn, and Gandalf already suspected that Denethor was using
>>> the stone. In that situation they might both have realised that the
>>> other was too important to risk losing their support at this point,
>>> and therefore satisfied themselves with this verbal sparring,
>>> avoiding a conflict that would alienate the other.
>>
>> That is the best analysis of the scene I've seen so far.
>
> Why, thank you, gentle sir ;-)
:-)
I've thought of another question about this scene. Gandalf and Pippin
leave rather abruptly at the end. What do you think Denethor's reaction
is to this?
Anger? Bafflement? Surprise? Uncaring? Good riddance!?
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
ste...@nomail.com
: <snip>
: Christopher
Of course the problem with reading too much into any of this
is it is not clear what Gandalf actually was at the time of the
writing of some of these passages.
According to Christopher Tolkien the
"words between Denethor and Gandalf that follow and Pippin's
perception of the tension between them, and of Gandalf's greater power
(though veiled), reached immediately the final text in almost every point;"
However this was written before Gandalf was a Maia. After writing
the above encounter Tolkien wrote in one of the brief outlines
"He [Gandalf] reveals that he [the Witch King] is a renegade of his
own order ... [?from?] Numenor." So apparently at the time
of the writing of the scene between Gandalf and Denethor Gandalf
was a wizard from Numenor, as was the Witch King, and both Gandalf
and the Witch King were presumably human.
Stephen
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote
>> Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
>> Book 5, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith
<snip>
>> The opening lines of the chapter 'Minas Tirith' segue seamlessly from
>> the closing lines of 'The Palantir' chapter.
<snip>
> One of my favorite quotes is that last paragraph of "The Palantir",
> and it moves so smoothly into the beginning of this chapter, that one
> could easily skip directly here, and not feel that one has missed a
> beat. I'm wondering if he wrote them consecutively? Any hints in
> HoME?
No-one has said anything yet...
I could look, but was hoping someone else might!
There is a letter that says that he stopped writing that part of the
story (he says that "inspiration failed" or something) when the beacons
flared in Anorien, and Theoden came to Harrowdale.
<checks>
Silly me! The quote is in the Forward to the Second Edition:
"In the next year [1942] I wrote the first drafts of the matter that now
stands as Book III, and the beginnings of Chapters 1 and 3 of Book V;
and there as the beacons flared in Anorien and Theoden came to
Harrowdale I stopped. Foresight had failed and there was no time for
thought." (Tolkien in the Foreward to the Second Edition [1965] of LotR)
He goes on to say that he wrote Book IV in 1944, sending them to CJRT
(his son, Christopher) who was serving in the RAF in South Africa.
Returning to the bit about this chapter, I find it interesting that he:
(a) Seems to imply that he stopped at the moment the beacons flared
(which is very early in this chapter). I wonder if Tolkien is just being
poetic here, and the break-point was later in the chapter?
[Regardless, it does show that the writing of these two passages from
'The Palantir' and 'Minas Tirith' does look to have been sequential and
done in 'one go']
(b) He seems to imply that chapter II in Book V (The Passing of the Grey
Company) was written out of sequence. Popping over to that discussion, I
see that this writing history from the Foreward to the Second Edition is
mentioned, but that again there has been an appeal for HoME details.
<snip>
>> 'Mithrandir! Mithrandir!' men cried. 'Now we know that the storm is
>> indeed nigh!'
>>
>> 'It is upon you,' said Gandalf. 'I have ridden on its wings. Let me
>> pass! I must come to your Lord Denethor, while his stewardship lasts.
>> Whatever betide, you have come to the end of the Gondor that you have
>> known. Let me pass!'
<snip>
>> What is the reason for this sudden change in tone?
<snip>
> It's a feeling to me of ever-increasing urgency, the closer they
> approach to the City. In the first, Gandalf argues his passage, and
> in the second he simply demands it; it's as though the closer they
> get, the more he senses all is not right.
That is an interesting point. I don't think the subsequent ride through
the city follows this trend, and I don't think Gandalf really feels all
is not right until later, but it definitely does supply a needed sense
of urgency. It reminds me of the bit in 'The Palantir' where Gandalf is
again quoted with plenty of exclamation marks:
"'Nazgul!' he cried. 'The messenger of Mordor. The storm is coming. The
Nazgul have crossed the River! Ride, ride! Wait not for the dawn! Let
not the swift wait for the slow! Ride!" (Gandalf in 'The Palantir'
chapter)
>> What impressions do you get from the descriptions of Minas Tirith?
>
> I've always had my reactions tied in with Pippin's POV, that sense of
> awe and amazement. I feel, with him, all wide-eyed and anxious.
<snip>
[more descriptions]
> Absolutely, in my case. I remember the first time I read this being
> completely drawn in by the picture being built in my mind.
<sigh>
I *wish* I could remember my first reading. :-)
>> [Stone and Wood]
<snip>
>> Pippin is reminded of the Argonath ("awe fell on him, as he looked
>> down that avenue of kings long dead"), but Tolkien's words contrast
>> the stone of this room with hangings and wood. Is he comparing it to
>> Meduseld in Edoras, much as Gandalf has contrasted Denethor with
>> Theoden?
>
> Now *that's* something that had not occurred to me before, but knowing
> JRRT's penchant for parallelism, it would not surprise me at all.
I've now managed to find that description of the throne room at Meduseld
for comparison:
"Inside it seemed dark and warm after the clear air upon the hill. The
hall was long and wide and filled with shadows and half lights; mighty
pillars upheld its lofty roof. But here and there bright sunbeams fell
in glimmering shafts from the eastern windows, high under the deep
eaves. Through the louver in the roof, above the thin wisps of issuing
smoke, the sky showed pale and blue. As their eyes changed, the
travellers perceived that the floor was paved with stones of many hues;
branching runes and strange devices intertwined beneath their feet. They
saw now that the pillars were richly carved, gleaming dully with gold
and half-seen colours. Many woven cloths were hung upon the walls, and
over their wide spaces marched figures of ancient legend..." (The throne
room at Meduseld)
Hmm. I snipped the bit about the throne room of Minas Tirith, so here is
is again!
"Pippin looked into a great hall. It was lit by deep windows in the wide
aisles at either side, beyond the rows of tall pillars that upheld the
roof. Monoliths of black marble, they rose to great capitals carved in
many strange figures of beasts and leaves; and far above in shadow the
wide vaulting gleamed with dull gold, inset with flowing traceries of
many colours. No hangings nor storied webs, nor any things of woven
stuff or of wood, were to be seen in that long solemn hall; but between
the pillars there stood a silent company of tall images graven in cold
stone." (The throne room at Minas Tirith)
The similarities and differences are quite striking.
>> [Gandalf and Tolkien in two moods - Part 2: Gandalf-Denethor]
<snip>
>> And Gandalf strides from the room with Pippin running at his side.
>>
>> Whew! What happened there?!
<snip>
> To me, we see Denethor's pride manifesting itself here. It seems as
> thought he is trying to do a bit of one-upmanship with Gandalf,
> flaunting his knowledge of things afar off, that by rights should
> come as news to him.
I wonder what would have happened if Gandalf had found out earlier that
Denethor had a palantir? And if Denethor had offered it to him?
(Unlikely though that is). I got the impression that Gandalf was tempted
by the Orthanc palantir. Would he have been tempted by the Anor palantir
as well?
> It is quite possible that this is a contrast to his encounter with
> Theoden. Theoden *wanted* help, ultimately. It is clear that
> Denethor does *not*, at least not any help that Gandalf might give.
> I do think that Denethor's attitude shows that he did *not* have any
> inkling as to what Gandalf's true nature was.
Yes, it does show that, doesn't it. Though I wonder whether Denethor
would have been more or *less* co-operative if he had known what Gandalf
was.
> And also, on Gandalf's part, we see again this sense of urgency coming
> through. He's spent several hundred years trying to orchestrate
> Sauron's fall, and now that things are coming to a head, they seem to
> be snowballing out of his control. So he hasn't much patience with
> Denethor's pretentions.
Good point about the several hundred years.
<snip>
> Most telling to me is his contempt for Pippin: "A Halfling still, and
> little love do I bear the name..."
I also find this comment from Denethor a bit strange, or rather the way
the narrator describes Denethor's attitude:
"'Now tell me your tale, my liege,' said Denethor, half kindly; half
mockingly. For the words of one whom my son so befriended will be
welcome indeed.'"
Is it possible to be half kind and half mocking?
>> "What say you to that, Halfling?"; "Tell me more! Why did no help
>> come? And how did you escape...";
>
> This part of the exchange is where I first got my own antipathy for
> Denethor. On my first reading of the story, my reaction was anger
> that he seemed to blame Pippin for simply being alive, that he seemed
> to not care that Boromir thought Pippin (and Merry) worthy of his
> sacrifice. It seemed to belittle not only the hobbits, but Boromir
> as well. My opinion of him only went downhill from there.
I've never quite felt antipathy or anger, but then in my early readings
I guess I concentrated on the reactions of Gandalf. It was more like:
how dare this guy talk to Gandalf like this!! Who does he think he is??
:-)
I don't think I really truly appreciated the hobbit characters until
much later rereadings of the story. Maybe not even until this rereading!
> "Whence came this [Pippin's sword]? Many,
>> many years lie on it. Surely this is a blade wrought by our own
>> kindred in the North in the deep past?";
>
> Again there is this touch of contempt in his tone; he is startled out
> of his absorption in his grief by the sight of the sword, but he
> doesn't seem to credit that a hobbit--a "halfling" could be carrying
> such a thing.
Well, to be honest, neither would I, but I see your point. Maybe
Denethor is also fishing for news of Aragorn, one of these 'northern
kin'.
> "...speak and be not silent! Tell me
>> your full tale, and see that you recall all that you can of Boromir,
>> my son."; "Pippin never forgot that hour in the great hall under the
>> piercing eye of the Lord of Gondor, stabbed ever and anon by his
>> shrewd questions."
>
> He is definitely giving Pippin the third-degree. It is really not
> very courteous, but he does not seem to mind that.
But then Gandalf is also sometimes not very courteous...
We do get the correct impression that Denethor is a powerful lord, and
one who has the power and 'right' to command others.
<snip>
> And, indeed, yes, poor Pippin was very much a pawn.
There is a quote from this chapter that reinforces this. It is when he
is talking to Beregond:
"Pippin looked at him: tall and proud and noble, as all the men that he
had yet seen in that land; and with a glitter in his eye as he thought
of the battle. 'Alas! my own hand feels as light as a feather,' he
thought, but he said nothing. 'A pawn did Gandalf say? Perhaps, but on
the wrong chessboard.'"
But then we have Elrond's bit from the Council of Elrond:
"This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the
strong. Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the
world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the
great are elsewhere."
Pawns in chess can promote to the most powerful piece: the queen. Frodo
and Sam and Merry in particular achieve great things. I've never been
entirely clear what Pippin does...
<snip>
>> "[Gandalf] came and stood beside Pippin, putting his arm about the
>> hobbit's shoulders [...] Pippin glanced in some wonder at the face
>> now close beside his own [...], he saw at first only lines of care
>> and sorrow; though as he looked more intently he perceived that
>> under all there was a great joy: a fountain of mirth enough to set a
>> kingdom laughing, were it to gush forth." (Gandalf reassuring Pippin
>> that he did his best when being questioned by Denethor)
>
> I love this bit. It's another lovely hint of Gandalf's true nature.
And later this fountain of mirth _does_ gush forth!
>> What do we learn of Pippin from this chapter? How are these new
>> experiences affecting him? How is he coping being on his own,
>> separated from Merry and the others?
>
> We learn a great deal of him. He really is a most unquenchable
> hobbit. His "hobbity-ness" comes through in his quest for a meal,
Yes, that is a nice bit:
Pippin: I had been borne up by the hope of a draught of ale as soon as
we came to the homes of wise and courtly men.
Beregond looked at him gravely: An old campaigner, I see.
[and]
Beregond: At the table small men may do the greater deeds, we say.
:-)
> He also admits to being horribly lonesome for
> Merry--hobbits are social creatures, so the separation must have been
> agony--yet on the whole he is coping and adapting remarkably well so
> far.
I wonder if we can go so far as to draw parallels with Tolkien's
experience of war (WW1), and his separation from his friends? At least
he could write letters to them, but then all Pippin's hobbit
companions-at-war survived, unlike Tolkien's.
>> - Denethor's character.
>>
>> "A pale smile, like a gleam of cold sun on a winter's evening, passed
>> over the old man's face."
>>
>> I wanted to say more about Denethor. But really this is just an
>> excuse to quote the line above, which is just delightful! He is
>> reacting to Pippin's offer of his sword in payment of the debt that
>> Pippin feels he owes Boromir.
Just wanted to expand this comment slightly.
The use of the words 'cold' and 'winter' to describe Denethor do
reinforce this impression of a distant and remote, impersonal ruler, and
also the fact that he is aged 'before his time': in the 'winter', even
the 'evening' of his life.
<snip>
>> The morale of the city seems also to be boosted by Pippin's very
>> presence (even though he had not brought an army with him as rumour
>> said), and the people of the city hail him as: "Ernil i Pheriannath"
>> (Prince of the Halflings).
>>
> (see my remark on that above. I have a feeling that title was used
> to twit Pippin for the rest of his life.)
:-)
>> This rumour is quite funny: "...when the Riders came from Rohan each
>> would bring behind him a halfling warrior, small maybe, but doughty."
>> And how many halfling warriors did the Rohirrim bring with them in
>> the end? :-) Actually, that one doughty warrior achieved something
>> very important...
>
> Amazing, isn't it? *grin* Just think what the Rohirrim might have
> accomplished if the rumor had been true. They might not have even
> needed the Black Ships and reinforcments, LOL!
LOL!
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> Of course the problem with reading too much into any of this
> is it is not clear what Gandalf actually was at the time of the
> writing of some of these passages.
Aha. But Tolkien eventually 'discovered' it...
A subconscious writing of Gandalf as powerful.
And then gradually discovering how powerful. :-)
But I do see your point. Thanks for pointing it out.
<snip>
> So apparently at the time
> of the writing of the scene between Gandalf and Denethor Gandalf
> was a wizard from Numenor, as was the Witch King, and both Gandalf
> and the Witch King were presumably human.
Oh. That does explain Treebeard's strange 'Great Ships' comment.
Isn't it lucky that Tolkien was so good at recycling words! :-)
Christopher Kreuzer
> On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 22:03:22 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> The Treebeard comment appear to be this:
>>
>> "I do not know the history of Wizards. They appeared first after the
>> Great Ships came over the Sea; but if they came with the Ships I
>> never can tell." (Treebeard in the chapter 'Treebeard')
>
> of any other ships coming to Middle-earth) then this shows that a
> thousand years or so is nothing to him ...
Actually, thinking on it some more, from Stephen's HoME comments, I
think that Treebeard is referring to the appearance of the Numenoreans
that conquered Middle-earth (rather than being nice). This was after the
first voyages of the Numenoreans back to ME, but before the final voyage
of the Exiles after the Downfall.
[As opposed to the Ships of the Exiles, as I first thought and you seem
to be thinking of: the ships of Elendil and sons]
I think that period was the time that the Black Numeneoreans (and
others) set up shop in Middle-earth, and is left over from when Tolkien
thought that the WK and Gandalf were Numenorean wizards (from early
drafts of LotR in HoME).
Does this sound plausible? Does CJRT explain (in the HoME drafts) the
'Great Ship' comment by Treebeard in LotR?
ste...@nomail.com
: <snip>
:> Of course the problem with reading too much into any of this
:> is it is not clear what Gandalf actually was at the time of the
:> writing of some of these passages.
: Aha. But Tolkien eventually 'discovered' it...
: A subconscious writing of Gandalf as powerful.
: And then gradually discovering how powerful. :-)
: But I do see your point. Thanks for pointing it out.
: <snip>
:> So apparently at the time
:> of the writing of the scene between Gandalf and Denethor Gandalf
:> was a wizard from Numenor, as was the Witch King, and both Gandalf
:> and the Witch King were presumably human.
: Oh. That does explain Treebeard's strange 'Great Ships' comment.
It explains it if it was written when Tolkien was thinking of
Gandalf as a wizard from Numenor. Although it actually does
not make much sense that anyone would have come from
Numenor after the Great Ships.
One thing that differs between the original draft and the final
version is that Pippin's passing thought 'Treebeard had said
something about wizards, even then he had not thought of Gandalf
as one of them.' does not appear in the draft.
: Isn't it lucky that Tolkien was so good at recycling words! :-)
: Christopher
Yes, but you should also be aware that if you look hard
enough you will find what you are looking for, even it
is something that the author did not really include.
Stephen
Christopher Kreuzer
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> ste...@nomail.com <ste...@nomail.com> wrote:
<snip>
>>> So apparently at the time
>>> of the writing of the scene between Gandalf and Denethor Gandalf
>>> was a wizard from Numenor, as was the Witch King, and both
>>> Gandalf and the Witch King were presumably human.
>
>> Oh. That does explain Treebeard's strange 'Great Ships' comment.
>
> It explains it if it was written when Tolkien was thinking of
> Gandalf as a wizard from Numenor. Although it actually does
> not make much sense that anyone would have come from
> Numenor after the Great Ships.
But see my other post about this. I think that these Great Ships might
not be the Exiles after the Downfall of Numenor. The Numenoreans did
make other voyages to ME in the Second Age before the Downfall. It is
more likely that Treebeard is referring to these ships.
It probably depends on when Tolkien fixed the date of the Istari's
arrival, and whether this was before they were Istari! The final date
was, I think, about a thousand years into the Third Age, but I think
some earlier drafts of the chronologies date it to sometime in the
Second Age, which might be consistent with this Treebeard comment _if_
these Istari are only recently turned by Tolkien from Numenorean wizards
to Istari from Aman. I haven't read the relevant HoME volumes. Would you
know whether this theory sounds right?
> One thing that differs between the original draft and the final
> version is that Pippin's passing thought 'Treebeard had said
> something about wizards, even then he had not thought of Gandalf
> as one of them.' does not appear in the draft.
<thinks>
Surely that implies something?
What is the textual history of Treebeard's comment?
>> Isn't it lucky that Tolkien was so good at recycling words! :-)
<snip>
> Yes, but you should also be aware that if you look hard
> enough you will find what you are looking for, even it
> is something that the author did not really include.
Thanks. That is important to remember.
Though didn't Tolkien himself fall into this trap? :-)
He was prone to analysing and extending what he had written. There are
examples of this in /Letters/. I bet he later 'saw' things in what he
wrote that he never realised at the time of writing!!
[And more generally, isn't this true of all creative writing?]
ste...@nomail.com
: ste...@nomail.com <ste...@nomail.com> wrote:
: <snip>
: <thinks>
: Surely that implies something?
There does not seem to be any. The Treebeard chapter
was pretty much written as is. The entire discussion
of the chapter in HOME is only 11 pages long, 2 of which
are notes. There is no mention of that comment, so I
assume it was in the original version of the draft.
:>> Isn't it lucky that Tolkien was so good at recycling words! :-)
: <snip>
:> Yes, but you should also be aware that if you look hard
:> enough you will find what you are looking for, even it
:> is something that the author did not really include.
: Thanks. That is important to remember.
: Though didn't Tolkien himself fall into this trap? :-)
Actually I think he did. Not that that is a bad thing,
but it is a different thing than writing a passage with
a specific idea in mind and conveying that idea.
: He was prone to analysing and extending what he had written. There are
: examples of this in /Letters/. I bet he later 'saw' things in what he
: wrote that he never realised at the time of writing!!
: [And more generally, isn't this true of all creative writing?]
: Christopher
I am not sure that is true of all creative writing. Tolkien
did not operate in the manner that most novelists do. He
really just seem to make stuff up as he went along and had
no clear idea of who or even what his characters were until
long after he had written key scenes featuring them.
Stephen
Shanahan
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> [Denethor - Gandalf]
>>
>>> But then we have the essay in UT telling us that Gandalf
>>> started to suspect that Denethor might have used the seeing
>>> stone after Pippin had looked in the Orthanc stone:
>>
>> Wow! This essay answers all the questions. I had totally
>> forgotten about this. Thanks for that.
>
> It does indeed answer a lot of questions -- I would, however,
> like to know if there are any suggestions in the LotR history
> volumes of HoMe that shows a little more clearly that this was
> also Tolkien's intention when he was writing LotR ('The
> Palantíri' is from the mid-sixties[1]).
> Not that I don't believe the contents, but it would be nice to
> know whether these ideas were also present in the published text
> of LotR.
My recollection is that Tolkien's ideas on the palantiri were far
from developed when he was writing LotR. I'll do some research and
see what I can come up with from HoME, or just UT vs. LotR for that
matter. One of the issues revolves around what CJRT chose to
publish in UT, as you note below.
<snip>
> This leads me to suspect that this might, at least in part, be
> after the fact rationalisation by Tolkien -- something he himself
> only discovered after long considering of this, and in the
> context of 'investigating' the properties of the palantíri in
> general.
<snip>
> And there's also the concept of 'shrouding' that is not entirely
> clear -- it appears that there is another note on the palantíri
> that differs in some details from the longer essay in UT (some of
> it is quoted or recounted by CJRT in the notes to the essay).
This is one place where it seems to me that LotR and the UT essay
are in conflict. Gandalf merely throws his cloak over the
Orthanc-stone when he desires to block its vision ('shroud' it),
whereas in the UT essay it's explicit that this action would not in
fact shroud the vision of the stone.
Ciaran S.
--
Through Evernight he back was borne,
on black and roaring waves that ran
o'er leagues unlit, and foundered shores
that drowned before the Days began
Shanahan
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> [Gandalf-Denethor]
>
> I've thought of another question about this scene. Gandalf and
> Pippin leave rather abruptly at the end. What do you think
> Denethor's reaction is to this?
>
> Anger? Bafflement? Surprise? Uncaring? Good riddance!?
"Drama queen!"
Ciaran S.
--
I'm not tense. Just terribly, terribly alert.
the softrat
I thought that we all were that already......
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Please don't congregate in groups.
Troels Forchhammer
Shanahan <pog...@NOTbluefrog.com> enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> declared:
>>
<snip>
[The palantíri]
>> And there's also the concept of 'shrouding' that is not entirely
>> clear -- it appears that there is another note on the palantíri
>> that differs in some details from the longer essay in UT (some of
>> it is quoted or recounted by CJRT in the notes to the essay).
>
> This is one place where it seems to me that LotR and the UT essay
> are in conflict. Gandalf merely throws his cloak over the
> Orthanc-stone when he desires to block its vision ('shroud' it),
> whereas in the UT essay it's explicit that this action would not in
> fact shroud the vision of the stone.
My impression is that Gandalf's purpose was different. He wanted, I
think, to prevent Sauron from contacting the Orthanc Stone and look out
through it, so to speak, in order to avoid that he could use that to
pinpoint their location.
It wouldn't prevent Sauron from watching them directly in his own
palantír, but he would then have to find them first, and that might prove
too time-consuming a process.
--
Troels Forchhammer
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought
which they avoid.
- Soren Kierkegaard
Troels Forchhammer
<snip>
> I've thought of another question about this scene. Gandalf and Pippin
> leave rather abruptly at the end. What do you think Denethor's
> reaction is to this?
>
> Anger? Bafflement? Surprise? Uncaring? Good riddance!?
"I hope I didn't push him too far."
"Better let him cool of for a bit."
I think that they were both aware that they both, despite their
grievances, needed each other at this point, and were careful not to let
their argument get out of control. Their ultimate goals differed, but the
intermediate goal was the same; to get Minas Tirith and Gondor safely
through the storm that was brewing, and for that they needed each
other -- at this point neither could have achieved that alone. At this
particular point, I think that Denethor was anxious not to jeoparize
their uneasy alliance, while at the same time he wanted to ascertain that
he, under no circumstances, would play Gandalf's game.
Shanahan
> Shanahan <pog...@NOTbluefrog.com> enriched us with:
>> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> declared:
>
>
>>> And there's also the concept of 'shrouding' that is not entirely
>>> clear -- it appears that there is another note on the palantíri
>>> that differs in some details from the longer essay in UT (some
>>> of it is quoted or recounted by CJRT in the notes to the essay).
>>
>> This is one place where it seems to me that LotR and the UT essay
>> are in conflict. Gandalf merely throws his cloak over the
>> Orthanc-stone when he desires to block its vision ('shroud' it),
>> whereas in the UT essay it's explicit that this action would not
>> in fact shroud the vision of the stone.
>
> My impression is that Gandalf's purpose was different. He wanted,
> I think, to prevent Sauron from contacting the Orthanc Stone and
> look out through it, so to speak, in order to avoid that he could
> use that to pinpoint their location.
Wouldn't that be 'shrouding'? IIRC, shrouding had two purposes: to
prevent this kind of spying, and to prevent the buildup of images
that would occur in the palantir's memory.
Ciaran S.
--
There's no doubt about it
it was the myth of fingerprints
I've seen them all, and man they're all the same
Shanahan
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> [Denethor - Gandalf]
>>
>>> But then we have the essay in UT telling us that Gandalf
>>> started to suspect that Denethor might have used the seeing
>>> stone after Pippin had looked in the Orthanc stone:
>>
>> Wow! This essay answers all the questions. I had totally
>> forgotten about this. Thanks for that.
>
> It does indeed answer a lot of questions -- I would, however,
> like to know if there are any suggestions in the LotR history
> volumes of HoMe that shows a little more clearly that this was
> also Tolkien's intention when he was writing LotR ('The
> Palantíri' is from the mid-sixties[1]).
> Not that I don't believe the contents, but it would be nice to
> know whether these ideas were also present in the published text
> of LotR.
Warning: long, detailed, and dull. Summary: the idea only seems to
have entered at the last minute, in the last MSS of the chapter.
Some hints from HoME VIII, 'The Palantir' chapter:
First outline: CJRT speculates that the discovery of the
palantir might very well have put the idea in Gandalf's head that
there must have been some rapid means of communication between
Orthanc and Barad-dur.
Second outline: Gandalf uses the Orthanc-stone without any
danger or encounters with Sauron, to gather information.
Undatable random jottings: Gandalf speaks to Sauron through the
Stone! "I said that Isengard was overthrown, and the Stone was going
on a journey, said Gandalf. And that I would speak to it again later
when I could, but at the moment I was in a hurry". WOW!! Gandalf
smarts off to Sauron!
Final outline: Gandalf thinks that the stone of Minas Tirith
was lost or destroyed.
First draft: Gandalf still thinks the same.
Completed MSS: Very much like chapter in TT.
From the 'Minas Tirith' chapter:
Generally, there's little rush, Aragorn stays with Theoden, no
Paths of the Dead or threat from Corsairs, in the early outlines.
These elements enter little-by-little in later outlines. But the
hurry doesn't stem from Aragorn using the palantir; he gets news
from Gondor's errand-riders.
Finally, in the 6th and last outline, there's a hint that
"Denethor has a secret", but it is struck out. This CJRT dates to
1944.
First draft: Denethor says "For though the Stones are lost",
but does *not* add "they say". This draft is abandoned, and Tolkien
largely rewrites the chapter with new chronology and ideas.
Ciaran S.
--
If a ragnarök would burn all the slums and gas-works,
and shabby garages, and long arc-lit suburbs,
it cd. for me burn all the works of art -
and I'd go back to trees.
- JRRT
Shanahan
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> declared:
>> Shanahan <pog...@NOTbluefrog.com> enriched us with:
>>> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> declared:
>>
>> [The palantíri]
>>
>>>> And there's also the concept of 'shrouding' that is not
>>>> entirely clear -- it appears that there is another note on the
>>>> palantíri that differs in some details from the longer essay
>>>> in UT (some of it is quoted or recounted by CJRT in the notes
>>>> to the essay).
That later, detached note, deals with the shrouding issue (see
CJRT's Note 18 to the essay on 'The Palantiri'). It differs from
the essay in that it conceives of shrouding as something one does
/to the palantir/ in question, in order to keep its image memory
from becoming overcrowded.
>>> This is one place where it seems to me that LotR and the UT
>>> essay are in conflict. Gandalf merely throws his cloak over the
>>> Orthanc-stone when he desires to block its vision ('shroud' it),
>>> whereas in the UT essay it's explicit that this action would not
>>> in fact shroud the vision of the stone.
>>
>> My impression is that Gandalf's purpose was different. He wanted,
>> I think, to prevent Sauron from contacting the Orthanc Stone and
>> look out through it, so to speak, in order to avoid that he could
>> use that to pinpoint their location.
>
> Wouldn't that be 'shrouding'? IIRC, shrouding had two purposes:
> to prevent this kind of spying, and to prevent the buildup of
> images that would occur in the palantir's memory.
Maybe we're both a bit off base here. If we take the basic essay as
definitive, shrouding is defined as something one does to an object
or place, to prevent a palantir from being able to see it. In the
case of Gandalf throwing his cloak over the Orthanc-stone, that
wouldn't apply, because what Gandalf was trying to do was to break
off the communication between the Orthanc and Ithil stones that
Pippin had opened. That's not shrouding; shrouding is independent of
linking/communicating stones: it refers to something which could be
seen by an unlinked stone, unless the something is shrouded.
But shrouding aside, I don't think Gandalf's cloak would keep Sauron
from seeing through the already-open link. "The vision of the
palantiri was not 'blinded' or 'occluded' by physical obstacles, but
only by darkness; so they could look through a mountain [or a cloak]
.... They could see through walls but see nothing within rooms,
caves or vaults unless some light fell on it...."
Ciaran S.
--
"Humans need fantasy to be human.
To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape...
You need to believe in things that aren't true.
How else can they *become*?"
- t. pratchett
Troels Forchhammer
Shanahan <pog...@NOTbluefrog.com> enriched us with:
>
<snip>
[The palantíri]
> That later, detached note, deals with the shrouding issue (see
> CJRT's Note 18 to the essay on 'The Palantiri'). It differs from
> the essay in that it conceives of shrouding as something one does
> /to the palantir/ in question, in order to keep its image memory
> from becoming overcrowded.
Yes, I think that is largely responsible for the confusion.
The two concepts are indeed very different and I think we were initially
using different ideas.
<snip>
> But shrouding aside, I don't think Gandalf's cloak would keep Sauron
> from seeing through the already-open link. "The vision of the
> palantiri was not 'blinded' or 'occluded' by physical obstacles,
[...]
I'm not sure that the comment about the vision not being obscured by
physical objects apply in this case. My impression is that it applies to
the viewing by the palantír itself, not to what can be seen through a
link to another Stone.
With respect to the main text, the statement is that the Stones could not
see objects that were in the dard, while note 18, IMO, deals with
preventing the individual Stone from 'recording' visions. I suppose that
the latter also would prevent any contact with that Stone from another
Stone in accord with it.
It is actually unclear what could be achieved at all by such a link. The
text deals with the situation when "another mind occupied a Stone in
accord" (when thought could be 'transferred'), but I can't find anything
saying if it was possible at all to get any visions from the vicinity of
a palantír not thus occupied. Perhaps Gandalf threw his cloak over the
palantír merely to prevent anyone from becoming absorbed in it and
'occupying' it (thus enabling Sauron to communicate with this new mind).
--
Troels Forchhammer
The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of
thinking with which we created them.
- Albert Einstein
Shanahan
> Shanahan <pog...@NOTbluefrog.com> enriched us with:
>
>
>> That later, detached note, deals with the shrouding issue (see
>> CJRT's Note 18 to the essay on 'The Palantiri'). It differs from
>> the essay in that it conceives of shrouding as something one does
>> /to the palantir/ in question, in order to keep its image memory
>> from becoming overcrowded.
>
> Yes, I think that is largely responsible for the confusion.
> The two concepts are indeed very different and I think we were
> initially using different ideas.
Didn't someone say something about 'turning us all into gibbering
maniacs'? ;)
>> But shrouding aside, I don't think Gandalf's cloak would keep
>> Sauron from seeing through the already-open link. "The vision
>> of the palantiri was not 'blinded' or 'occluded' by physical
>> obstacles, [...]
>
> I'm not sure that the comment about the vision not being obscured
> by physical objects apply in this case. My impression is that it
> applies to the viewing by the palantír itself, not to what can be
> seen through a link to another Stone.
Yes, I've been thinking about this, and I'm sure you're right.
> With respect to the main text, the statement is that the Stones
> could not see objects that were in the dark, while note 18, IMO,
> deals with preventing the individual Stone from 'recording'
> visions. I suppose that the latter also would prevent any contact
> with that Stone from another Stone in accord with it.
I wonder... The Stones had assigned watchers who would check in
with it periodically, on behalf of the King. I wonder if this would
create some kind of mental link with the assigned watchers, so that
they would feel it if another Stone tried to contact theirs. Kind
of a little tug on that link in the back of their mind.
> It is actually unclear what could be achieved at all by such a
> link. The text deals with the situation when "another mind
> occupied a Stone in accord" (when thought could be
> 'transferred'), but I can't find anything saying if it was
> possible at all to get any visions from the vicinity of a
> palantír not thus occupied. Perhaps Gandalf threw his cloak over
> the palantír merely to prevent anyone from becoming absorbed in
> it and 'occupying' it (thus enabling Sauron to communicate with
> this new mind).
Possible, good thought. Or perhaps he was simply trying to hide the
Stone itself, its physical presence, from Sauron's sight via the
Ithil-Stone.
Ciaran S.
--
"The problem is not that power corrupts;
it is that power attracts the corruptible."
- f. herbert
Jim Deutch
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>It is actually unclear what could be achieved at all by such a link. The
>text deals with the situation when "another mind occupied a Stone in
>accord" (when thought could be 'transferred'), but I can't find anything
>saying if it was possible at all to get any visions from the vicinity of
>a palantír not thus occupied. Perhaps Gandalf threw his cloak over the
>palantír merely to prevent anyone from becoming absorbed in it and
>'occupying' it (thus enabling Sauron to communicate with this new mind).
I think it's clear that JRR Tolkien did not have a sound understanding
of what the Stones could do nor a clear idea of how they were used in
actual practice. Many of the ideas he presents seem absurd, and even
(there are at least hints of this) contradictory. It's not too
suprising, I guess: we can endlessly debate even the powers of the
Ring, which are central to the story, so how much more obscure are the
powers of the Stones, which play only a peripheral role.
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
"When ideas fail, words come in very handy." - Goethe
R. Dan Henry
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>There's a difference, IMO, between the motives and the actions undertaken
>to achieve the goal. Gandalf doesn't know all that Denethor has done to
>fulfill his motives, but I still think that he does know precisely what
>Denethor is working towards, what Denethor's priorities etc. are.
Denethor himself is quite open about their main point of contention:
his priority is Gondor and he isn't going to try to worry about
anything beyond that. And isn't that quite a lot already? What exactly
does Gandalf imagine Denethor would do differently if he was thinking
big? Fighting the best fight to defend Gondor seems his best strategy
for taking as much of Sauron's strength as possible away from the rest
of the world in any case.
Denethor is hiding fewer cards here than Gandalf is (palantir v. Ring
mission, palantir, Aragorn, true identity, etc.).
>There's a scale from suspecting that Gandalf is more than he appears --
>neither Man nor Elf, but something else, to suspecting him to be an
>emmissary form the Lords of the West and ultimately suspecting him to be
>a Maia.
>
>I think it's likely that Denethor took the first step, and it's possible,
>I suppose, that he did expect "The West" to be somehow involved, but I
>don't think it went further than that, though I'd be hard pressed to come
>up with any good arguments for it ;-)
Again, if he did, what difference would that have made? Saruman and
Sauron are evidence enough that coming out of the West or being a Maia
isn't enough to guarantee benevolence or flawless judgment.
>But yes -- there's a good deal of not understanding the writing between
>the lines going on, and yet we hear from Gandalf that Denethor learned
>far more from Pippin than what he said.
Well, he learned that Boromir wasn't in charge after Moria, which
didn't take much wisdom. ("Hmmm, they went into the Golden Wood.
Boromir certainly wouldn't have taken them there. Someone else must
have been leader.") I wonder how much of the death-and-resurrection of
Gandalf got mentioned for the leadership after Moria to have even been
an issue of consideration? That might have got Denethor thinking about
what Gandalf was. ("Killed a Balrog, eh. And came through it? Even the
great Elvish heroes of the First Age didn't do that! Gandalf must be a
superhero! No, wait, wrong genre...")
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>[This news is presumably transmitted to Denethor: "It has been told to
>me that you bring with you one who saw my son die." - though can this
>news _really_ have reached him from Ingold before Gandalf and Pippin get
>to the throne room?]
Visual signals - flags, mirrors, etc. Keep a couple of men watching
high up to take messages and you should have a good long range from
the top of Minas Tirith.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<disinte...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> By comparison, Tolkien's Dunedain have undisputed documentary proof,
>including independent corroboration from the Elves, of the authenticity of
>their royal traditions as well as much of the rest of their cultural
>heritage, even after many thousands of years.
It's like having immortal Mormons for neighbors! :-)
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Pippin is reminded of the Argonath ("awe fell on him, as he looked down
>that avenue of kings long dead"), but Tolkien's words contrast the stone
>of this room with hangings and wood. Is he comparing it to Meduseld in
>Edoras, much as Gandalf has contrasted Denethor with Theoden?
I think it hints at the old Numenorean concern of (im)mortality --
stone and metal are (relatively) permanent, wood and weavings would
observably decay over the timespan of a Numenorean kingdom. It is
monumental architecture, built for the ages.
>Is the impression here that Denethor has been overcome with grief and is
>just sitting in his throne room waiting for news? How long would he have
>been sitting here, neglecting the running of the city? Why then does
>Denethor question Pippin so closely?
I think that Denethor is capable of brooding on his sorrow and running
the city at the same time. He'd have to do a lot of waiting for
reports to come back as far as the war effort goes anyway, and with
the evacuation, civil administration is all but suspended. As for
questioning Pippin closely, would *you* expect to get anything out of
Gandalf but what he had planned to say? Also, Denethor's personal
interests are quite real and I expect he wished to judge Gandalf's
responsibility for the loss of his son.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
robert j. kolker
R. Dan Henry wrote:
>
> It's like having immortal Mormons for neighbors! :-)
Oh the Horror! The Horror!
Bob Kolker
Christopher Kreuzer
> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:54:10 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>
>> There's a difference, IMO, between the motives and the actions
>> undertaken to achieve the goal. Gandalf doesn't know all that
>> Denethor has done to fulfill his motives, but I still think that he
>> does know precisely what Denethor is working towards, what
>> Denethor's priorities etc. are.
>
> Denethor himself is quite open about their main point of contention:
<snip>
Agreed.
> Denethor is hiding fewer cards here than Gandalf is (palantir v. Ring
> mission, palantir, Aragorn, true identity, etc.).
But Gandalf _does_ tell Denethor about the Ring mission at some point.
Just not straight away. It is only in the confrontation scene on his
pyre, that Denethor actually comes right out and reveals the full extent
of his knowledge and his thoughts concerning Gandalf. A full discussion,
especially about which of Denethor's thoughts on his pyre were those he
thought before he lost his mind, or those he thought afterwards, might
be best left to that chapter:
"Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to
stand behind every throne, north, south, or west. I have read thy mind
and its policies. Do I not know that you commanded this halfling here to
keep silence? That you brought him hither to be a spy within my very
chamber? And yet in our speech together I have learned the names and
purpose of all thy companions. So! With the left hand thou wouldst use
me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right
bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me." (The Pyre of
Denethor)
If I was Gandalf, I would be feeling unjustly attacked, but also very
uneasy over how some of the comments are difficult to refute.
Gandalf's responses (which should really be discussed in that chapter)
are actually (IMO) a lot like the response of a psychiatrist trying to
calm a madman. Though some of Gandalf's comments probably don't really
help.
>> There's a scale from suspecting that Gandalf is more than he appears
>> -- neither Man nor Elf, but something else, to suspecting him to be
>> an emmissary form the Lords of the West and ultimately suspecting
>> him to be a Maia.
From Denethor's later comments on his pyre (quoted above), it looks like
Denethor merely thinks Gandalf is a scheming political threat, preparing
the way for Aragorn. But again, it is not certain when that thought
crystallised in Denethor's mind.
>> I think it's likely that Denethor took the first step, and it's
>> possible, I suppose, that he did expect "The West" to be somehow
>> involved, but I don't think it went further than that, though I'd be
>> hard pressed to come up with any good arguments for it ;-)
>
> Again, if he did, what difference would that have made? Saruman and
> Sauron are evidence enough that coming out of the West or being a Maia
> isn't enough to guarantee benevolence or flawless judgment.
I don't think Denethor, in his madness, would have heeded even the voice
of one he thought to be from the West (not that I think he did).
Denethor _before_ he went mad might be another matter. He might have
been persuaded by Aragorn and Gandalf and fobbed off with a powerful
role in the new realm. Or maybe not.
>> But yes -- there's a good deal of not understanding the writing
>> between the lines going on, and yet we hear from Gandalf that
>> Denethor learned far more from Pippin than what he said.
>
> Well, he learned that Boromir wasn't in charge after Moria, which
> didn't take much wisdom. ("Hmmm, they went into the Golden Wood.
> Boromir certainly wouldn't have taken them there. Someone else must
> have been leader.") I wonder how much of the death-and-resurrection of
> Gandalf got mentioned for the leadership after Moria to have even been
> an issue of consideration?
Hey, good point. Gandalf didn't say to Pippin: "Don't tell Denethor I
fell down that chasm with that Balrog."
We don't even know what explanation has been given to Merry and Pippin
(who weren't there when Gandalf told ALG what happened), though we do
glimpse some of their perception of the change in Gandalf:
Merry: "He [Gandalf] has grown, or something. He can be both kinder and
more alarming, merrier and more solemn than before, I think. He has
changed; but we have not had a chance to see how much, yet." (The
Palantir)
It might be entirely possible that Pippin neglected to mention the whole
Gandalf-Balrog thing. Is that reasonable?
> That might have got Denethor thinking about
> what Gandalf was. ("Killed a Balrog, eh. And came through it? Even the
> great Elvish heroes of the First Age didn't do that! Gandalf must be a
> superhero! No, wait, wrong genre...")
_Denethor_ thinking about the genre? :-)
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
[just finishing off a few points from an old post]
> I would guess that Gandalf does realise that Denethor has been using
> the stone -- it is, after all (as you have said) quite obvious once
> one suspects it
Actually, there are clues in the other 'Denethor' chapters. There are
really only three chapters in which we meet Denethor: 'Minas Tirith',
'The Siege of Gondor' and 'The Pyre of Denethor'.
To really understand what is happening here, we really need to look at
all the Denethor scenes in all three chapters. There is a comment in the
'Pyre' chapter that throws a lot of light on these questions:
(1) When did Gandalf realise that the Anor stone still existed?
(2) When did Gandalf suspect Denethor was using the Anor stone?
"[Gandalf:] Though the Stewards deemed that it was a secret kept only by
themselves, long ago I guessed that here in the White Tower, one at
least of the Seven Seeing Stones was preserved. In the days of his
wisdom Denethor did not presume to use it, nor to challenge Sauron,
knowing the limits of his own strength. But his wisdom failed..." (The
Pyre of Denethor)
That answers (1), but the answer to (2) is less clear.
> and he may also recognise some of the signs of the
> unhealthy influence this has on Denethor: the strain of his
> confrontations with Sauron, his pride and his focus on the battle
> between Gondor and Mordor as described in App. A,I,(iv) 'Gondor and
> the Heirs of Anárion':
>
> " In this way Denethor gained his great knowledge of things
> that passed in his realm, and far beyond his borders, at
> which men marvelled; but he bought the knowledge dearly,
> being aged before his time by his contest with the will of
> Sauron. Thus pride increased in Denethor together with
> despair, until he saw in all the deeds of that time only a
> single combat between the Lord of the White Tower and the
> Lord of the Barad-dûr, and mistrusted all others who
> resisted Sauron, unless they served himself alone."
Rereading those three chapters I mentioned above, I have got much more
of a sense of pride from Denethor. He even presumes that the Dark Lord
himself will have to come to overthrow him:
"He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won." (The
Siege of Gondor)
Denethor may merely be referring to Sauron coming to crow over him, as a
continuation of the mental battle of wills they have been engaging in,
but even this may only be Denethor's pride speaking. I think that the
Witch-King alone in person would be enough to throw down Denethor.
> These things I would say that Gandalf guessed, including their source,
What? That Denethor was using a palantir? I wonder why Gandalf wouldn't
then take action to stop this, but in some ways it makes sense: in the
same way that he didn't presume to forbid Aragorn using the palantir
(and indeed returned it to him as it was his by right), so too he would
not try to meddle and stop Denethor using a palantir (as was Denethor's
right also as the Steward).
> during the first few days in Minas Tirith during the War of the Ring,
> but it is doubtful, IMO, that he did -- or even could have -- guess
> the consequences for Denethor of the wounds to Faramir.
So Gandalf still thought that Denethor was in control and able to
contest the will of Sauron? He changes his mind pretty quickly when he
arrives at Rath Dinen. When Gandalf first arrives at Denethor's pyre,
the first thing he says (after saying "Stay! Stay! Stay this madness!")
is: "What is this, my lord? [...] has our Enemy come even to Rath Dinen?
>>> whether in the crucial test of desperate war it would
>>> not prove that he (like Saruman) was no longer to be
>>> trusted and might surrender to Mordor.
>>
>> It looks like he never did: just went mad
>
> Exactly. "Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and mantained
> the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the
> (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son." (UT 4,III 'The
> Palantíri' -- in case someone doesn't have access to it).
>
>> (though it makes little difference apart from the moral judgement
>> on Denethor).
>
> But isn't that an important issue in Tolkien's writings?
>
>> I guess that discussion should wait until a later chapter.
>
> Oh, well . . . ;-)
Oops. Here I am resurrecting an old thread with a self-destruct
button...
[Saruman vs Denethor]
>>> Gandalf's dealings with Denethor on arrival in Minas
>>> Tirith, and in the following days, and all things that
>>> they are reported to have said to one another, must be
>>> viewed in the light of this doubt in Gandalf's mind[8]"
[the doubt over whether Denethor and the palantir he might have, might
have succumbed to the will of Sauron, just like Saruman did]
And this is really so enlightening! Gandalf really was _testing_
Denethor and seeing if Denethor had become like Saruman. It all becomes
clear now. As well as allowing comparisons to be drawn between Denethor
and Saruman, we can also compare Denethor and Aragorn. Denthor is maybe
what Aragorn would have ended up like (prematurely aged) if he had been
in Denthor's place and had to battle with Sauron for many years (compare
with Aragorn's reaction to wresting the Orthanc palantir from Sauron).
And maybe even further down the line to evil we have the Witch-King?
>> Wow. So why didn't Tolkien put this in the story as published, if he
>> thought it was so important.
>
> A good question, IMO.
I found one answer in UT: "In his talk to Peregrin as they rode [to
Minas Tirith... Gandalf...] was not concerned to exhibit his own process
of discovery and deduction [...] [but] his mind was at the same time
earnestly busy with the Stones..." (The Palantiri)
> There are at least a couple of points I'd like
> to discuss in this connection. This scene, as indeed the whole
> chapter, is told from the PoV of Pippin, and I don't think that he
> would detect these undercurrents, which would necessitate some kind
> of narrative shift in order to make it work -- he could, for
> instance, have had Gandalf say something about this in 'The Last
> Debate', but there is, I think, enough back-story there (with Legolas
> and Gimli's account of their journey from the Stone of Erech).
>
> There are a few more hints in appendix A, but again it doesn't quite
> go all the way -- there's some speculation about when Denethor began
> to use the palantír, what the effects on him were etc. but the
> details about his confrontation with Gandalf are missing.
>
> This leads me to suspect that this might, at least in part, be after
> the fact rationalisation by Tolkien -- something he himself only
> discovered after long considering of this, and in the context of
> 'investigating' the properties of the palantíri in general.
The Palantiri essay _was_ after LotR, so you might be right. But it does
hang together all to well, so I might be inclined to favour this all
being in Tolkien's mind as he wrote it.
<snip>
>>> It is, I think, likely that none of them were actually fooled; that
>>> they did see through these semi-veiled comments -- after all
>>> Denethor was already convinced that Gandalf wanted to supplant him
>>> with Aragorn, and Gandalf already suspected that Denethor was using
>>> the stone. In that situation they might both have realised that the
>>> other was too important to risk losing their support at this point,
>>> and therefore satisfied themselves with this verbal sparring,
>>> avoiding a conflict that would alienate the other.
<snip>
>> Though the reader will take a long time to realise this is what was
>> going on:
>
> I don't recall when I started to suspect that something had been going
> over the top of my head -- it was certainly neither the second or
> third reading ;-)
>
> At some point I started to put together the various hints from around
> the book [2], but it took some more for a fuller picture to emerge --
> and of course it wasn't until I read UT that the full 'truth' became
> visible.
I'm not sure that there aren't a few nuggets still to draw out of this
complex character called Denethor!
Must try to get round to the 'Siege of Gondor' chapter discussion soon!
<snip>
R. Dan Henry
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>Rereading those three chapters I mentioned above, I have got much more
>of a sense of pride from Denethor. He even presumes that the Dark Lord
>himself will have to come to overthrow him:
>
>"He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won." (The
>Siege of Gondor)
I don't think he means that Sauron will come to fight a duel with him,
but to gloat.
And no, I don't suppose Sauron would move to Minas Tirith, not yet,
although it might become a vacation cottage in time. He would,
however, have Denethor brought to him if he lived. Denethor is the
ruler of the last Numenorean realm to stand against Sauron; Sauron
would want to savor this victory and likely would find amusements with
Denethor for a long time.
As I say, I don't think Denethor was actually irrational at the end,
merely despairing because he believed a false premise: that Sauron had
the Ring. Given that, a living pyre would be preferable to what Sauron
would have done if Denethor were taken alive.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Troels Forchhammer
>>
<snip>
> (2) When did Gandalf suspect Denethor was using the Anor stone?
That is answered in UT 4,III 'The Palantíri' ("In his talk to Peregrin as
they rode on Shadowfax [...] must be viewed in the light of this doubt in
Gandalf's mind." and note 8).
<snip>
> Rereading those three chapters I mentioned above, I have got much more
> of a sense of pride from Denethor.
Yes, I agree entirely. The source of Denethor's fall was the same as for
Boromir: their pride.
<snip>
>> These things I would say that Gandalf guessed, including their
>> source,
>
> What? That Denethor was using a palantir?
See above.
> I wonder why Gandalf wouldn't then take action to stop this,
a) Guessed as in suspected, but I'm sure that it was more than a
suspicion after the first conversation with Denethor (as Tolkien
notes, Denethor almost went out of his way to confirm Gandalf's
suspicions).
b) Even when he knew, I don't think that Gandalf would have stopped
Denethor -- possibly he warned him against it, but that would be
the most, IMO.
> but in some ways it makes sense: in the same way that he didn't
> presume to forbid Aragorn using the palantir (and indeed returned it
> to him as it was his by right), so too he would not try to meddle and
> stop Denethor using a palantir (as was Denethor's right also as the
> Steward).
Precisely.
<snip>
> [the doubt over whether Denethor and the palantir he might have, might
> have succumbed to the will of Sauron, just like Saruman did]
>
> And this is really so enlightening!
Moderately so, yes ;-)
> Gandalf really was _testing_ Denethor and seeing if Denethor had
> become like Saruman.
And Denethor almost flaunted his knowledge in Gandalf's face -- not only
confirming Gandalf's suspicions, but also telling him that there would be
nothing Gandalf could do about it. Talk about pride!
> It all becomes clear now. As well as allowing comparisons to be
> drawn between Denethor and Saruman, we can also compare Denethor
> and Aragorn.
And all that in top of the comparisons between Denethor and Théoden ;-)
> Denethor is maybe what Aragorn would have ended up like (prematurely
> aged) if he had been in Denethor's place and had to battle with Sauron
> for many years (compare with Aragorn's reaction to wresting the
> Orthanc palantir from Sauron).
It would probably have taken somewhat longer for Aragorn, but in the end
I'm sure he would have gone the same way (
> And maybe even further down the line to evil we have the Witch-King?
Not through the use of the palantír, I think. Even setting aside the
wraithification, I don't think that Aragorn and Denethor were on their
way to become like the Witch-king -- even when driven to madness by
despair and grief Denethor never sided with Sauron.
<snip>
>> This leads me to suspect that this might, at least in part, be after
>> the fact rationalisation by Tolkien -- something he himself only
>> discovered after long considering of this, and in the context of
>> 'investigating' the properties of the palantíri in general.
>
> The Palantiri essay _was_ after LotR, so you might be right. But it
> does hang together all to well, so I might be inclined to favour this
> all being in Tolkien's mind as he wrote it.
Well, that is part of the problem, I think. The old Professor was bery
nearly obsessed with consistency -- not that I think that's bad, mind
you, but it does make it difficult sometimes, because his explanations
are likely to hang together so well that it is almost as if he is
discovering what he actually meant when he wrote the thing -- even when
he is really inventing new backstory.
I do agree that this hangs together extremely well -- in particular the
mutual understated tauntings in the discussions between Denethor and
Gandalf in this chapter.
> I'm not sure that there aren't a few nuggets still to draw out of this
> complex character called Denethor!
Agreed.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo
Öjevind Lång
news:v8bju05qj3fhs8cd9...@4ax.com...
[snip]
> As I say, I don't think Denethor was actually irrational at the end,
> merely despairing because he believed a false premise: that Sauron had
> the Ring. Given that, a living pyre would be preferable to what Sauron
> would have done if Denethor were taken alive.
In the book, Tolkien mentions how Pippin "saw the madness grow in Denethor's
eyes", which indicates to me that Denethor was quite irrational at the end.
Öjevind
R. Dan Henry
aelfwina
"R. Dan Henry" <danh...@inreach.com> wrote in message
news:r2fmu0lvlgect2lsv...@4ax.com...
Long before there were such things as qualified psychologists, some people
*were* indeed "mad", or crazy or cracked, and the average person could
recognize that, if not diagnose the exact cause. Indeed, even nowadays, an
ordinary person--not a psychologist-- on meeting someone who was determined
not only to commit suicide but to take someone else with them, would call
them "crazy". (And it happens on a regular basis on the nightly news.)
I think Denethor *was* mad; despair was the cause.
Barbara
>
> R. Dan Henry
> danh...@inreach.com
Öjevind Lång
news:10un8u3...@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
> > >In the book, Tolkien mentions how Pippin "saw the madness grow in
> Denethor's
> > >eyes", which indicates to me that Denethor was quite irrational at the
> end.
> >
> > Oh, now Pippin is a qualified psychologist.
>
> Long before there were such things as qualified psychologists, some people
> *were* indeed "mad", or crazy or cracked, and the average person could
> recognize that, if not diagnose the exact cause. Indeed, even nowadays,
an
> ordinary person--not a psychologist-- on meeting someone who was
determined
> not only to commit suicide but to take someone else with them, would call
> them "crazy". (And it happens on a regular basis on the nightly news.)
>
> I think Denethor *was* mad; despair was the cause.
Later on, when one of Denethor's attendants asks Pippin whether Gondor is
ruled by Gandalf the Grey or by the Steward, Pippin replies with words to
the effect that "I believe that your choice is between gandalf the Grey and
a madman". That is in "The Pyre of Denethor".
Öjevind
Jette Goldie
We're all qualified to see "madness grow in the eyes".
Setting yourself and your alive-but-injured son alight is pretty
irrational in most people's experience.
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
R. Dan Henry
<dnivej...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>Later on, when one of Denethor's attendants asks Pippin whether Gondor is
>ruled by Gandalf the Grey or by the Steward, Pippin replies with words to
>the effect that "I believe that your choice is between gandalf the Grey and
>a madman". That is in "The Pyre of Denethor".
Yes. But Pippin (and Gandalf for that matter) is not working with all
the facts. Also, their notion of "madness" is not the same as mental
illness. It is broader, like "insane" in "our prices are insane". See
my response to "Pyre of Denethor".
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Christopher Kreuzer
> "R. Dan Henry" <danh...@inreach.com> wrote in message
> news:r2fmu0lvlgect2lsv...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 01:08:33 +0100, "Öjevind Lång"
>> <dnivej...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>>
>>> "R. Dan Henry" <danh...@inreach.com> skrev i meddelandet
>>> news:v8bju05qj3fhs8cd9...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> As I say, I don't think Denethor was actually irrational at the
>>>> end, merely despairing because he believed a false premise: that
>>>> Sauron had the Ring. Given that, a living pyre would be preferable
>>>> to what Sauron would have done if Denethor were taken alive.
>>>
>>> In the book, Tolkien mentions how Pippin "saw the madness grow in
>>> Denethor's eyes", which indicates to me that Denethor was quite
>>> irrational at the end.
>>
>> Oh, now Pippin is a qualified psychologist.
>
> We're all qualified to see "madness grow in the eyes".
>
> Setting yourself and your alive-but-injured son alight is pretty
> irrational in most people's experience.
But to be fair, the cause of the 'madness' is more important than just
labelling him a madman or irrational. Just as it is unhelpful to label a
large group of people with different mental health needs with the term
"mad" or "insane", the precise level and nature of Denethor's madness is
important to elucidate.
But it is difficult to agree on that. I remember an exceedingly long
thread in these newsgroups that debated definitions of mental disorders.
That sort of thing is probably best avoided, and should be taken to the
right chapter discussion in any case.
At any rate, Denethor was not completely insane. He was not a gibbering
wreck, foaming at the mouth, and he could still string a sentence or two
together. Some very nice sentences in fact.
And possible the level of irrationality varied. I seem to remember a
bit where Denethor reacts to Faramir's moans of half-consciousness with
a sudden mood change from irrational pride to pleading.
Sorry! I'll take my own advice and switch over to the 'Pyre of Denethor'
chapter! :-)
AC
I don't think there's any doubt of that. It was that critical
difference between despair at the fact that Sauron was going to wipe
Gondor out, and using that fact as the Captains of the West did to buy
the Ringbearer time and space to complete his quest. It was all a
matter of faith. Denethor lost it (if he ever had it, which I feel
Tolkien strongly suggests he didn't), while Gandalf and Aragorn knew
that that was the only hope.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
AC
I don't think there's any guessing about it. Denethor had lost his
marbles, gone woo-woo, had bats in the belfrey, was several slices short
of a loaf, etc. That what he saw, at least in part, was real; that
Sauron was militarily undefeatable, is certainly a mitigating factor,
but I think his madness probably has its roots in Boromir's death, and
that everything afterwards were simply chipping off the walls of his
rational framework, until when he thought Faramir was mortally wounded
and saw the doom of Minas Tirith, there was nothing left as far as he
was concerned and he descended into a final despair.
I pity him, to be honest. His intentions weren't pure, but still he was
a man of substantial gifts. He had fatal flaws, and evidently had had
them long before he became Steward, but still, that final madness was so
horrifying, surely one of the greatest bits of writing Tolkien ever did,
that I couldn't help but feel sad by it.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com