COTW: Chapter XIII: “OF Beleriand and Its Realms”
Morgoth's Curse
Synopsis:
This chapter is essentially a brief review of the geography of
Beleriand. For further details, please consult the map which is
included with most versions of The Silmarillion. :-)
Points for Discussion:
One of the marvels of this chapter is that it actually
contributes to the cohesiveness of the Silmarillion as a whole even
though it primarily a review of the geography of Beleriand. The
contrast between the first few paragraphs and the remainder of the
chapter is a splendid example. Rather than burden the reader with a
graphic description of the peril that the Eldar face, Tolkien begins
with a basic description of Angband and then concludes with a
description of the various realms of Beleriand. The implication is
subtly obvious: Angband is what Beleriand will become if Morgoth
should prevail. It is also a subtle reminder that Morgoth is the most
powerful entity in this specific theater.
It is equally significant that the descriptions of the realms
of Beleriand begin with Fingolfin and end with the sons of Feanor. The
sons of Feanor are, according to the laws of the Noldor (as best as I
understand the laws) the rightful rulers of the Noldor and should be
the most powerful lords in the land. As Mandos had prophesied, the
sons of Feanor are indeed The Dispossessed.
It initially seems somewhat strange that Fingolfin and his
people should decide to settle in a land with such a cool climate
after their ordeal of crossing the Helcaraxe, but upon further
reflection it make sense. Hithlum had the best natural defenses of
any of the Noldorin realms except for Gondolin. Fingolfin and his
people had suffered grievous losses and needed a secure place to rest
and grow strong again while simultaneously keeping Morgoth in check.
It is also obvious why the sons of Finarfin settled in Dorthonion and
West Beleriand: They were kin to Thingol of Doriath and Fingolfin did
not wish to antagonize the Sindar with the brusque presence of the
sons of Feanor. As we subsequently learn, Thingol already had ample
cause to dislike the Noldor; any action that increased the peace
between the Sindar and the Noldor could only benefit both peoples.
We are told that Thangorodrim could be seen from the heights
of Dorthonion. Does that imply that it towered even above the Iron
Mountains that guarded the rear of Angband? I suspect that it grew in
height even during the Siege of Angband as the countless slaves who
labored in Angband dumped the vast refuse of their tunnels and mines
upon it. Could its height have been comparable to that of such true
mountains as Caradhras or Mindolluin or was it actually more similar
to the Barad-dur?
Why were the Sindar of Nevrast so willing to accept Turgon as
their lord? Was it due to his special friendship with Ulmo? Ulmo
was, of course, forbidden to give any aid to the Noldor (a prohibition
that he obviously did not agree with), but the Valar never said that
he could not aid Cirdan or the Sindar. Yet Ulmo aids Turgon and, as
far as we know, not Cirdan. How can we explain this discrepancy?
Why were there so few ports in Beleriand? It is true that the
Noldor were not the sailors that the Teleri were, but Cirdan and the
Falathrim would have been happy to build several fleets for Fingolfin
and Finrod. (It was only the arrival of the Noldor that prevented the
total destruction of the Havens, after all.) A haven at Vinyamar or
in the Firth of Drengist certainly would have had multiple advantages
especially since Morgoth (as is mentioned in the text) never attempted
to make war by sea.
"Of those horses many of the sires came from Valinor, and they
were given to Fingolfin by Maedhros in atonement of his losses, for
they had been carried by ship to Losgar." Does this mean that horses
were not native to Middle-earth or simply that the stock, like
everything else from Valinor, was superior to anything that
Middle-earth had to offer?
Just in case you were actually curious, a "tarn" is a small
mountain lake and a "tor" can be either a rocky peak or hill or else a
pile of rocks on top of a hill. I am not familiar with Scottish
geography, but it sounds as though Tolkien is describing the Scottish
Highlands or perhaps Scandinavian geography. Gondolin and the
Encircling Mountains are perhaps more reminiscent of the Swiss Alps
that Tolkien once visited.
Why are rivers in Beleriand referred to by the male gender? Is
this an actual European custom or is it related to the fact that the
Vala in charge of water is Ulmo?
Why were the Ered Gorgoroth (the Mountains of Terror) a locus
for evil creatures? It's mentioned several times that the monsters in
the form of giant spiders dwelt there long before Ungoliant arrived
and dwelt there long after her departure. Why didn't Orome and his
band of merry hunters clean out that nest of horrors when they still
rode in Beleriand? The only explanation that occurs to me is that the
"dreadful precipices" of Ered Gorgoroth provided the spiders with a
quick and convenient escape route.
Why were Angrod, Aegnor and Orodreth all willing to serve
Finrod as vassals? He seems to have been the eldest son of Finarfin,
but Fingon was also the eldest son of Fingolfin and apparently did not
receive any special treatment because of that fact. Turgon certainly
never considered himself the vassal of his brother.
One reason why Tolkien is one of my favorite authors is that
he adheres to the general rules of geography. He does not simply
designate one part of the land as a desert, another part as a swamp
and yet another part as a forest (as Terry Brooks usually does, for
example.) The geography of Tolkien's world closely parallels our own
and Tolkien took great care to make sure that the geography shaped the
story and not vice-versa. Hithlum is described as a fair, but cool
land and that is perfectly logical because it is nearest to the ice of
the Helcaraxe and the regions of everlasting cold. Likewise Ard-galen
lies within the rain shadow of two different mountain ranges and is
thus described as a broad plain (which is exactly the case of the
Great Plains east of the Rocky Mountains in America.) Western
Beleriand, in contrast, is thickly forested because the wind can carry
moisture from the sea unhindered and also because all of the major
rivers in Beleriand flow southward.
I wonder if that Gates of Sirion were based on an actual
river? A quick check of Google supplies the name of an underground
river [Punkva] in the Moravian Karst District in the Czech Highlands
and the river Pivka in Slovenia, but I am not sure that is what
Tolkien had in mind. Can anybody supply more details?
In The Hobbit, Bilbo and his companions must cross an
enchanted river in Mirkwood that is perilous to touch and to drink
from. We are never given a reason why this small forest river is
enchanted, but in the Silmarillion it is hinted that it may be due to
the confluence of two very different types of magic. The waters
flowing from Ered Gorgoroth are stated to be defiled and perilous to
drink because of their proximity to the snares of the foul offspring
of Ungoliant-exactly as the waters of the forest river were poisoned
by presence of Sauron and his creatures in southern Mirkwood. The
"magic" of Melian is apparently powerful enough to purify the water as
it passes through Doriath because we are never told that any of the
elves of that kingdom suffered any ill effects from it. The land
between the northern fences of Doriath and the Mountains of Terror,
however, is described as a barren land shunned by all living things
and through which only the most desperate travelers would pass. The
elves dwelling in Mirkwood practiced some sort of magic (although that
is, of course, not exactly the correct term) that held evil at bay.
Hence, I conclude that it may very well the convergence and contention
of these two "forces" which laid such a heavy enchantment upon the
forest river.
Why was the Vale of Sirion so poorly defended? It was a major
route to southern Beleriand and yet Finrod only built a single
watchtower to guard it. It seems to me that four additional
fortresses--two at each end of the valley--were necessary to prevent a
massive invasion from Angband. I suppose that Finrod was trusting in
the vigilance of his brothers and the ability of Fingon to provide
reinforcements as well as the Fen of Serech to limit access to the
vale, but he should have known that nothing is certain in war except
death and destruction.
The sons of Feanor are justifiably considered villains in the
Silmarillion, but the geography of eastern Beleriand makes it clear
that they had their heroic moments as well. Only the great hill of
Himring and hills of no significant height stand between the evil of
Angband and east Beleriand. Hence the sons of Feanor are the most
vulnerable to assault and possess the fewest options in the event of
defeat. It is a testimonial to the arrogance of the sons of Feanor
that Maedhros did not give nearly as much thought to the political
consequences of settling East Beleriand as Fingolfin had. Caranthir,
who is described as the harshest and haughtiest of the brothers, is
tasked to guard Thargelion and Lake Helevorn even though it is the
nearest land to the dwarven cities of Belegost and Nogrod and makes
antagonism between the two allies almost inevitable. It would have
been better, as was after seen, if he had been chosen to hold Himlad
and Celegorm and Curufin had been selected to occupy the East Vale.
South of Himlad lay the impenetrable fences of Doriath and hence there
was little opportunity for Caranthir to screw up the relations between
the Noldor and Sindar.
Why did Amrod and Amras choose to have little to do with their
brothers? We know almost nothing about these two brothers except the
fact that they were twins. It is almost as if they were ashamed of
being the sons of Feanor and deliberately tried to distance themselves
from their brothers.
Why did none of the Noldor ever cross the Ered Lindon into
Eriador? Some of the loremasters must have remembered that not all of
the Elves had made the journey to Valinor. If nothing else, an
expedition to locate their lost kindred would have gained valuable
intelligence about Morgoth's activities east of the mountains.
And, finally, a few questions for those who are so fortunate
as to own a complete copy of HoME. How many times did Tolkien revise
the geography of Beleriand? What were the most significant revisions?
What sources did Tolkien draw upon when he designed this geography?
Was he influenced more by his medieval studies or by his personal
travels?
Morgoth's Curse
Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
> Why were the Sindar of Nevrast so willing to accept Turgon as
> their lord? Was it due to his special friendship with Ulmo? Ulmo
> was, of course, forbidden to give any aid to the Noldor (a prohibition
> that he obviously did not agree with), but the Valar never said that
> he could not aid Cirdan or the Sindar. Yet Ulmo aids Turgon and, as
> far as we know, not Cirdan. How can we explain this discrepancy?
The impression that I get of Turgon is that he was second
only to Feanor among the Noldor in artistic skill, and that in
fact he was the greatest in some skills (such as architecture).
The smoothness of his few quoted utterances (such as his welcome
of Eol) indicate that he was charismatic and a good politician.
The Nevrast Sindar's acceptance of him and his people's
willingness to follow him "behind locked doors" to Gondolin also
suggest this. When I first read about the Roman emperor Trajan,
I was reminded of Turgon, not least because of the name.
All this may have contributed to Ulmo thinking that Turgon
was the "most likely to succeed" among the Noldor, in the sense
of redeeming himself in the eyes of the Valar. In fact, I guess
Ulmo was only one generation off.
> Why were Angrod, Aegnor and Orodreth all willing to serve
> Finrod as vassals? He seems to have been the eldest son of Finarfin,
> but Fingon was also the eldest son of Fingolfin and apparently did not
> receive any special treatment because of that fact. Turgon certainly
> never considered himself the vassal of his brother.
I think it's probably a charisma thing again (or maybe a
"power" thing). Finrod had a lot of charisma/power, so maybe
his brothers were willing to subjugate themselves for that
reason. His sister Galadriel was not so willing.
> I wonder if that Gates of Sirion were based on an actual
> river? A quick check of Google supplies the name of an underground
> river [Punkva] in the Moravian Karst District in the Czech Highlands
> and the river Pivka in Slovenia, but I am not sure that is what
> Tolkien had in mind. Can anybody supply more details?
Hmm, I had forgotten completely about the Gates of Sirion.
On the Danube, there's a feature called the Iron Gate, a series
of narrow gorges on the course of the river that forms the border
between Romania and Serbia, but it's just very narrow valleys,
not a place where the river is actually going underground.
I wonder if Tolkien had in mind Coleridge's "Alph, the
sacred river" from "Xanadu", which plunges underground to a
"lifeless ocean".
--Jamie. (efil4dreN)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
Troels Forchhammer
"Morgoth's Curse" <morgoths...@nospam.yahoo.com> enriched us
with:
> COTW: Chapter XIII: "OF Beleriand and Its Realms"
A bit belated, but still -- the next chapter isn't out yet . . .
(As I begin writing, anyway. Let's see when I'm done).
<snip>
> Points for Discussion:
>
> One of the marvels of this chapter is that it actually
> contributes to the cohesiveness of the Silmarillion as a whole
> even though it primarily a review of the geography of Beleriand.
Yes, that is quite remarkable.
And I agree with your further comments about the general structure of
the chapter and the significance thereof.
> We are told that Thangorodrim could be seen from the heights
> of Dorthonion. Does that imply that it towered even above the
> Iron Mountains that guarded the rear of Angband?
As I understand the geography (supported by Karen Wynn Fonstad), the
towers of Thangorodrim were raised south of the Iron Mountains, and
Angband was north of the mountains. "Beneath Ered Engrin he made a
great tunnel" which led from Angband to its gates at Thangodrim. About
the towers of Thangorodrim is said that there were 'exceedingly lofty',
and, in ch. 13 'Of the Return of the Noldor', they're described as
"mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth" when the dying Fëanor looks
upon them.
<snip>
> Why were there so few ports in Beleriand?
I suppose that it's possible that both of the Noldorin hosts had a bit
of a strained relationship to ships after Fëanor's little bonfire at
Losgar -- possibly none of their Princes really wanted to be the one to
be the Noldo with the ships . . .
Apart from that, I can't see any reasonable explanation.
[...]
> especially since Morgoth (as is mentioned in the text) never
> attempted to make war by sea.
[...] for at no time ever did Morgoth essay to build ships
or to make war by sea. Water all his servants shunned, and
to the sea none would willingly go nigh, save in dire need.
This reminded me of the discussion in UT about the Ringwraiths and
their fear for water.
Christopher Tolkien wrote:
My father nowhere explained the Ringwraiths' fear of
water. In the account just cited it is made a chief motive
in Sauron's assault on Osgiliath, and it reappears in
detailed notes on the movement of the Black Riders in the
Shire: thus of the Rider (who was in fact Khamûl of Dol
Guldur, see note 1) seen on the far side of Bucklebury
Ferry just after the Hobbits had crossed (The Fellowship of
the Ring I 5) it is said that "he was well aware that the
Ring had crossed the river; but the river was a barrier to
his sense of its movement and that the Nazgûl would not
touch the 'Elvish' waters of Baranduin." But it is not made
clear how they crossed other rivers that lay in their path,
such as the Greyflood, where there was only "a dangerous
ford formed by the ruins of the bridge" (p. 277). My father
did indeed note that the idea was difficult to sustain.
[UT 3,IV 'The Hunt for the Ring', (ii) 'Other Versions of the Story']
Here, in the Silmarillion, it seems that this fear of water is general
for all servants of Morgoth and, possibly, by extension, of all
servants of evil in Middle-earth. I can see how this could be difficult
to sustain in any case as there seems to be several instances where the
servants of Morgoth, and later of Sauron, must have crossed various
rivers.
> "Of those horses many of the sires came from Valinor, and
> they were given to Fingolfin by Maedhros in atonement of his losses,
> for they had been carried by ship to Losgar." Does this mean that
> horses were not native to Middle-earth or simply that the stock,
> like everything else from Valinor, was superior to anything that
> Middle-earth had to offer?
I suspect rather the latter, though without any good proof. In any
case, I think that 'many of the sires' also implies that 'not all of
the sires' were of Valinorean stock, so what was the rest?
> Just in case you were actually curious, a "tarn" is a small
> mountain lake
Thanks. I had that one noted down for checking ;)
> Why are rivers in Beleriand referred to by the male gender?
> Is this an actual European custom or is it related to the fact
> that the Vala in charge of water is Ulmo?
Apparently the word for 'River' is masculine in German, French, Spanish
and Italian (the languages I checked[*]). I have, however, heard that
of all the German rivers, only the Rhine is masculine (the rest must be
feminine or neuter). I don't know about actual named rivers elsewhere.
What gender is, for instance, the Donau?
In Danish we've forgone the use of masculine and femine for words, so
we've reduced the number of word-genders to two: common gender and
neuter.
[*] Der Fluss (German)
Le Fleuve (French)
El Río (Spanish)
Il Fiume (Italian)
<snip>
> The sons of Feanor are justifiably considered villains in the
> Silmarillion, but the geography of eastern Beleriand makes it
> clear that they had their heroic moments as well.
[...]
From the preceding chapter, regarding exactly the position of the
Fëanor-sons in the north-east where 'there was little defence of hill
or river against assault from Angband':
It is said indeed that Maedhros himself devised this plan,
to lessen the chances of strife, and because he was very
willing that the chief peril of assault should fall upon
himself; and he remained for his part in friendship with
the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin, and would come among
them at times for common counsel.
While undeniably courageous, I suspect that there is in this also an
element of that pride and arrogance that so characterizes most of the
brothers; a firm belief that they were better capable of repelling an
attack from Angband in poorly defensible positions.
> It is a testimonial to the arrogance of the sons of Feanor that
> Maedhros did not give nearly as much thought to the political
> consequences of settling East Beleriand as Fingolfin had.
Their father wasn't exactly a role-model of diplomacy and political
foresight, was he ;-) And long-term strategy wasn't his strong suit
either, if we judge by his headlong assault on Thangorodrim.
> Caranthir, who is described as the harshest and haughtiest of the
> brothers, is tasked to guard Thargelion and Lake Helevorn even
> though it is the nearest land to the dwarven cities of Belegost
> and Nogrod and makes antagonism between the two allies almost
> inevitable.
Did the Noldor even know about the Dwarves at that point? The text says
that 'thus it was that Caranthir's people came upon the Dwarves, who
after the onslaught of Morgoth and the coming of the Noldor had ceased
their traffic into Beleriand', but that doesn't necessarily mean that
the Noldor hadn't heard about the Naugrim from the Sindar.
If we assume that Maedhros didn't know about the Dwarves, then
Caranthir was actually placed the furthest from any allies, and with
some of his brothers between him and any other Elves.
<snip>
> Why did none of the Noldor ever cross the Ered Lindon into
> Eriador?
Or go south along the coasts, for that matter.
> Some of the loremasters must have remembered that not all of
> the Elves had made the journey to Valinor.
There was a lot of them living right there in Beleriand -- even the
people of Denethor, son of Lenwë who had forsaken the Great March to
turn south along the Anduin.
> If nothing else, an expedition to locate their lost kindred would
> have gained valuable intelligence about Morgoth's activities east
> of the mountains.
It would probably have encountered Men far earlier (assuming that it
was sent out early enough), which might have been an advantage, but
which also, in the light of some of the 'mistaken beliefs' that sent
the Noldor on their march, could have been the very reason they didn't
go during the long peace (and after that they had enough to do to mind
their own business).
More seriously, Fëanor's sons had no business east of the Blue
Mountains: the Silmarils were in Angband, and therefore they settled
within striking distance of the gates to Angband.
For Fingolfin's host, I don't know. They were more active in
establishing tolerable relations to the other inhabitants in Beleriand,
and possibly they were simply busy enough with what they had in
Beleriand -- time for investigations beyond Beleriand later, as they
may have thought.
> And, finally, a few questions for those who are so fortunate
> as to own a complete copy of HoME. How many times did Tolkien
> revise the geography of Beleriand?
I cannot say how many times they were revised, neither in substance or
in details. In HoMe XI 'War of the Jewels', CT writes about the
Beleriand maps:
[...] all later changes were roughly done, some of them
mere scribbled indications, and also that they were made
at many different times, in pencil, coloured pencil, blue,
black and red ink, and red, green and blue ball-point pen,
[...].
He tells that the initial maps were discernible amid all the later
changes, and those he has reproduced in volume 5 (The Lost Road) and in
volume 11 he has then reproduced the emended versions, though he notes
that 'the appearance of the actual map is very different from these
redrawings.'
The changes that he subsequently describes are mostly name-changes and
minor additions, such as new contributary rivers etc.
I'll leave it to others to comment in more detail, as I have yet to
study the maps in greater detail.
We've been speaking of foreshadowing lately, and there are some good
examples of the more cryptic kind in this chapter.
When telling us about Amon Ereb upon which Denethor died in the battles
before the arrival of the Noldor, we also suddenly here that 'upon that
hill Maedhros dwelt after the great defeat.'
And on going through the tributaries to Gelion, we learn about the isle
Tol Galen in Adurant where 'Beren and Lúthien dwelt after their
return' -- did anyone notice the cryptic comment about Beren in chapter
12? I was far too busy keeping track of all the Noldorin princes to
notice these small bits of foreshadowing when I first read the Silm,
and it was quite a surprise to find them in a later reading (I'm not
even sure I noticed both in my first re-reading <G>).
In many ways I think these are typical for the foreshadowing in
Tolkien's writings (along with prophetic dreams and true foresight).
The description, already during the telling of the Battle at the
Pelennor Fields, of the graves of the two mounts (Théoden's and the
Witch-king's) is, IMO, of the same sort -- a way of saying in passing,
'oh, by the way -- later on it was like this'.
Comparing Thranduil to Thingol, in particular as he is described in
/the Hobbit/ is probably trivial to most here -- it seems to me that
the Elven King in /the Hobbit/ is mostly a re-use of Thranduil in the
same way that Elrond and Gondolin appeared in the book without really
intending it to be connected to the deeper mythology from where they
were borrowed.
There are also elements in Galadriel's protection of Lothlórien that
reminds me of Melian, and in this chapter I stumbled across another
parallel between Thingol/Melian and Celeborn/Galadriel. In both cases
the wife seems to have been the more clever and the more powerful, but
they also wanted to put their husbands forth. In this case the passage
I noticed was about Nivrim:
[...] it also was encompassed within the Girdle of Melian,
that so some portion of Sirion which she loved in reverence
of Ulmo should be wholly under the power of Thingol.
Who is flattering who? Who gets to appear mighty and who's doing the
actual work? I am reminded of Galadriel's praise of her husband, 'For
the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of
Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings.' Who
actually adviced the company (and Frodo in particular), and who gave
them their gifts?
This model of the asymmetric marriage is also present in Lúthien's
rescue of Beren from Sauron and her subsequent enchantment of even
Morgoth, and less obviously so in Elwing and Eärendil (it was her
Silmaril that allowed them to get to Valinor, and she got to decide
what kind they were to belong to).
Are there other obvious examples?
Is this really a repeated pattern in Tolkien's writings, or am I
chasing ghosts?
And if I'm not just chasing mirages, can we use it for anything?
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.
- /Hogfather/ (Terry Pratchett)
JimboCat
>In many ways I think these are typical for the foreshadowing in
>Tolkien's writings (along with prophetic dreams and true foresight).
>The description, already during the telling of the Battle at the
>Pelennor Fields, of the graves of the two mounts (Théoden's and the
>Witch-king's) is, IMO, of the same sort -- a way of saying in passing,
>'oh, by the way -- later on it was like this'.
I think you have the wrong perspective here. Instead, I would call it a
way of saying in passing "oh, by the way -- that's how it got to be the
way it is today (which of course you probably already know about)"
*within* the conceit of the writing being a historical document (from
the distant -- but *not* imaginary -- past), so of course you don't
already know this on your first reading, (since the past distance is so
much greater for you than it was for the writer, a mere generation or
so later than the events described) but if the literary magic is right,
you actually feel as if you *should* know all about Snowmane's Howe, as
if it were someplace you could have visited on vacation as a child, if
only your parents had picked that as a summer destination, and you
would have seen the two mounds, side-by-side, one covered in grass and
the other still almost menacing in its barrenness.
Uh, did that come across as anything less than totally schizophrenic?
Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
I used to be an agnostic, but now I'm not so sure.
Troels Forchhammer
<news:1150823200....@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
"JimboCat" <10313...@compuserve.com> enriched us with:
> Troels Forchammer wrote:
>>
>> In many ways I think these are typical for the foreshadowing in
>> Tolkien's writings (along with prophetic dreams and true
>> foresight). The description, already during the telling of the
>> Battle at the Pelennor Fields, of the graves of the two mounts
>> (Théoden's and the Witch-king's) is, IMO, of the same sort -- a
>> way of saying in passing, 'oh, by the way -- later on it was like
>> this'.
>
> I think you have the wrong perspective here. Instead, I would call
> it a way of saying in passing "oh, by the way -- that's how it got
> to be the way it is today (which of course you probably already
> know about)"
Well, not /today/, certainly -- even within the conceit. Neither at
the time of Bilbo's writing or at the time of Tolkien's
'translation' were Beren and Lúthien living on Tol Galen nor Maedhros
on Amon Ereb. Hence my use of 'later on it /was/ like this' (added
emphasis).
> *within* the conceit of the writing being a historical document
> (from the distant -- but *not* imaginary -- past), so of course
> you don't already know this on your first reading, (since the past
> distance is so much greater for you than it was for the writer, a
> mere generation or so later than the events described)
Oh, I see -- you're going back a couple of steps further than I did,
sorry. You're looking at the original construction of the tales which
Bilbo translated (whether oral or written tradition).
I don't know if it is possible to ultimately know precisely when the
tales were first made, but the Quenta Silmarillion as a whole cannot
have come into existence until after the War of Wrath. I think that
the tense used in the text suggests that the situations described
(Lúthien and Beren living on Tol Galen and Maedhros on Amon Ereb) are
in the past from the narrator's point of view, but I could be wrong
about that.
I agree that in the original telling, the audience was expected to
know the end, although that probably couldn't be said of the audience
for Bilbo's translations . . .
In the case of Snowmane's Howe, however, I agree with what you say;
there the narrator describes a contemporary state, which is assumed
to outlast the narrator and that he assumes his audience to
> but if the literary magic is right, you actually feel as if you
> *should* know all about Snowmane's Howe, as if it were someplace
> you could have visited on vacation as a child, if only your
> parents had picked that as a summer destination,
I know I was missing out a lot by always going north in our summer
holidays . . . ;-)
> and you would have seen the two mounds, side-by-side, one covered
> in grass and the other still almost menacing in its barrenness.
Yeah, I would! So why didn't we ever go there? It's an outrage!
> Uh, did that come across as anything less than totally
> schizophrenic?
Not schizophrenic, no.
I am, however, not entirely sure that it makes a difference, when
looking at it as a literary technique, whether the narrator, story-
internally, expects his audience to be well-acquainted with these
facts or not or whether the later situation is contemporary with the
narrator or not.
On the other hand -- perhaps there is an interesting aspect to
investigate in whether the foreshadowing also works story-internally
as foreshadowing, and to what degree that has an impact on our story-
external perception of the foreshadowing . . .
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
A good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows
how to read.
- /Guards! Guards!/ (Terry Pratchett)
Raven
news:Xns97E7F1C2...@130.133.1.4...
> In message <news:satc72t9rep5ksjgs...@4ax.com>
> "Morgoth's Curse" <morgoths...@nospam.yahoo.com> enriched us
> with:
> > Why are rivers in Beleriand referred to by the male gender?
> > Is this an actual European custom or is it related to the fact
> > that the Vala in charge of water is Ulmo?
> Apparently the word for 'River' is masculine in German, French, Spanish
> and Italian (the languages I checked[*]). I have, however, heard that
> of all the German rivers, only the Rhine is masculine (the rest must be
> feminine or neuter). I don't know about actual named rivers elsewhere.
> What gender is, for instance, the Donau?
There are two cities of Frankfurt: Frankfurt am Main (masculine) and
Frankfurt an der Oder (feminine). The musical composition "on the
beautiful, blue Danube" - is that "An der schönen blauen Donau"? If I
remember correctly there then Donau is feminine.
> In Danish we've forgone the use of masculine and femine for words, so
> we've reduced the number of word-genders to two: common gender and
> neuter.
> [*] Der Fluss (German)
> Le Fleuve (French)
> El Río (Spanish)
> Il Fiume (Italian)
In Latin it is neuter (flumen), but seems to have gone into the masculine
in the daughter languages which have lost the neuter gender. In the
Norwegian dialects which have retained all three genders it is feminine (ei
elv, elva), or masculine (ein flod, floden), but this word is less
frequently used, and denotes rather a large river such as found in foreign
countries. I don't even know if it is used at all in these dialects.
Ravn.
Öjevind Lång
news:ar_lg.12365$Bc6....@news.get2net.dk...
[snip]
> There are two cities of Frankfurt: Frankfurt am Main (masculine) and
> Frankfurt an der Oder (feminine). The musical composition "on the
> beautiful, blue Danube" - is that "An der schönen blauen Donau"? If I
> remember correctly there then Donau is feminine.
According to my old German school grammar, "foreign river names are as a
rule masculine: der Don, der Ebro, der Fyris, der Jordan, der Mississippi,
der Nil, der Po." Exceptions are river names ending in -a or -e, such as die
Wolga, die Loire, die Rhone, die Seine and die Themse (the Thames).
"German river names are as a rule feminine; die Donau, die Oder, die
Weichsel, die Weser." Exceptions: der Rhein, der Main, der Inn, der Lech,
der Neckar. And, apparently, the Oder that adjoins Poland. Since the Polish
name for the last-named river is Odra, that may have influenced its gender
in German.
Öjevind
Derek Broughton
> "Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:Xns97E7F1C2...@130.133.1.4...
>
>> [*] Der Fluss (German)
>> Le Fleuve (French)
& La Riviere...
--
derek
JimboCat
>perhaps there is an interesting aspect to
>investigate in whether the foreshadowing also works story-internally
>as foreshadowing, and to what degree that has an impact on our story-
>external perception of the foreshadowing . . .
Yes, that is it exactly! Story-internal foreshadowing . . . it is
nearly mind-boggling to me how many layers this gets to. I hate to say
this, but I think we need a Post-Modernist here...
(see http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo )
Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"If one examines structuralist dedeconstructivism, one is faced with a
choice: either reject the presemanticist paradigm of reality or
conclude that class, ironically, has objective value. It could be said
that the subject is contextualised into a textual predeconstructivist
theory that includes culture as a reality."
Troels Forchhammer
<news:1150908044....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
>>
>> perhaps there is an interesting aspect to investigate in
>> whether the foreshadowing also works story-internally as
>> foreshadowing, and to what degree that has an impact on
>
> Yes, that is it exactly! Story-internal foreshadowing . . . it is
> nearly mind-boggling to me how many layers this gets to.
I you find it only /nearly/ mind-boggling, then you are ahead of me
;-)
Perhaps there is basis for a new faction within the Tolkien
newsgroups -- the reign of the eccentric nut-cases is over: now has
dawned the age of the Tolkien On-line Oligarchy of the Disturbingly
Uniformly Mind-Boggled ;-)
However, back to the normal program . . .
I've commented elsewhere on how Tolkien's use of familiar
mythological elements has an effect on the reader by that, half sub-
conscious, reference that evokes the idea of the mythological -- a
reference out of the story and out of Tolkien's sub-creation. Here,
however, is another element of Tolkien's style that I think is also
part of what makes his writings better than most: his Middle-earth
writings are generally framed in a story-internal conceit, and it
/works/. Whether it is, story-internally, an account of historical
events, such as LotR or the Quenta Silmarillion, or a learned
exposition, such as e.g. Ósanwe-kenta, it really does work. The
Quenta is a good story for the reader, but it is perhaps even better
for young Elanor and Frodo on Rosie's lap as Sam reads out of Bilbo's
translations . . .
That they contain story-internal foreshadowing (Elanor and Frodo and
the other kids would hear about Snowmane's Howe long before Elanor
got to see it) is natural -- that is part of any really good story.
> I hate to say this, but I think we need a Post-Modernist here...
I don't, as a rule, have much patience with the more pure versions of
post-modernism, so I'm not sure I understand entirely -- surely one
doesn't need to be Post-Modernist to realise that viewpoint matters
(that the observer is part of the experiment)?
> (see http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo )
I get an error trying to load that -- will try again tomorrow.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
"What're quantum mechanics?"
"I don't know. People who repair quantums, I suppose."
- /Eric/ (Terry Pratchett)
nand...@transact.bm
Raven wrote:
> "Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:Xns97E7F1C2...@130.133.1.4...
>
> > In message <news:satc72t9rep5ksjgs...@4ax.com>
> > "Morgoth's Curse" <morgoths...@nospam.yahoo.com> enriched us
> > with:
>
> > > Why are rivers in Beleriand referred to by the male gender?
> > > Is this an actual European custom or is it related to the fact
> > > that the Vala in charge of water is Ulmo?
>
> > Apparently the word for 'River' is masculine in German, French, Spanish
> > and Italian (the languages I checked[*]). I have, however, heard that
> > of all the German rivers, only the Rhine is masculine (the rest must be
> > feminine or neuter). I don't know about actual named rivers elsewhere.
> > What gender is, for instance, the Donau?
>
> There are two cities of Frankfurt: Frankfurt am Main (masculine) and
> Frankfurt an der Oder (feminine). The musical composition "on the
> beautiful, blue Danube" - is that "An der schönen blauen Donau"? If I
> remember correctly there then Donau is feminine.
>
the Amazon River being "the Father of Waters". I can't think of any
female titles of rivers though.
Neil Anderson
JimboCat
>Perhaps there is basis for a new faction within the Tolkien
>newsgroups -- the reign of the eccentric nut-cases is over: now has
>dawned the age of the Tolkien On-line Oligarchy of the Disturbingly
>Uniformly Mind-Boggled ;-)
Wait a minnit, gotta see what... Tee, Oh, Oh,... Uh, I don' geddit. ;-)
>The Quenta is a good story for the reader, but it is perhaps even better
>for young Elanor and Frodo on Rosie's lap as Sam reads out of Bilbo's
>translations . . .
Yes: it probably is!
>That they contain story-internal foreshadowing (Elanor and Frodo and
>the other kids would hear about Snowmane's Howe long before Elanor
>got to see it) is natural -- that is part of any really good story.
It certainly helps the reader identify with the characters, doesn't it?
>I don't, as a rule, have much patience with the more pure versions of
>post-modernism, so I'm not sure I understand entirely -- surely one
>doesn't need to be Post-Modernist to realise that viewpoint matters
>(that the observer is part of the experiment)?
>
>> (see http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo )
>
>I get an error trying to load that -- will try again tomorrow.
A pity. It would probably have made it clear that I have (apparently)
far less patience with post-modernism than you do. This site generates
a brand-new and totally meaningless post-modernist essay for you every
time you load it. They read great. They appear to be highly
significant, if a bit abstruse. But there is no thought behind them at
all: a cleverly-designed text generator is all there is. The .sig quote
on that post of mine was from one of those.
Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"Surely the evil which leaves your lips pollutes you far worse than the
evil which enters your ears." -- Raven
JimboCat
>Off the top of my head I could think of Father Thames in the UK, and
>the Amazon River being "the Father of Waters". I can't think of any
>female titles of rivers though.
The Mekong, the Ganges and the Chesapeake are all known as "The Mother
of Waters"... GoogleHits research results:
"Mother of waters" - 950 hits
"Father of waters" - 16,700 hits
- interesting! Speculation: a connection with micturation and the
obvious...
Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"My parents visited a planet where the life-forms were not bilaterally
symmetrical and all I got was this lousy F-shirt."
Raven
news:1150929736....@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> Off the top of my head I could think of Father Thames in the UK, and
> the Amazon River being "the Father of Waters". I can't think of any
> female titles of rivers though.
The Mississippi = Old Man River?
Corvo.
hen...@swirve.com
[snip]
> >> perhaps there is an interesting aspect to investigate in
> >> whether the foreshadowing also works story-internally as
> >> foreshadowing, and to what degree that has an impact on
> >> our story-external perception of the foreshadowing . . .
> >
> > Yes, that is it exactly! Story-internal foreshadowing . . . it is
> > nearly mind-boggling to me how many layers this gets to.
>
> I you find it only /nearly/ mind-boggling, then you are ahead of me
> ;-)
>
> Perhaps there is basis for a new faction within the Tolkien
> newsgroups -- the reign of the eccentric nut-cases is over: now has
> dawned the age of the Tolkien On-line Oligarchy of the Disturbingly
> Uniformly Mind-Boggled ;-)
I associate myself with this post. Yes, what a horrible, horrible fate
it is to boggle one's mind! I quayl at the thought. Not only that, but
well I knew that you, Sir Troels, would be wroth on cause of the
flagrant abuse of your sufferance, largesse, bounty and courtesy, and
in a manner with the Dunadan as well. But all his language Sir Jimbo
said by cause he would anger Sir Curse, yet it is not meet that the
foreshadowing should be thus disinterred by those who would question
your knighthood, not to mention your honesty when discussing the
story-internal ungentleness that you so cunningly scried despite the
crafty machinations of Sir Jimbo and Sir Jamie. The interestimg aspect
must not be abandoned thus! In faith, Sir Troels, I am behind you! And
also beside you, beneath you and atop you!
Your most obedient, humble servant
Horus Engels
Morgil
> Niel Anderson wrote:
>
>
>>Off the top of my head I could think of Father Thames in the UK, and
>>the Amazon River being "the Father of Waters". I can't think of any
>>female titles of rivers though.
>
>
> The Mekong, the Ganges and the Chesapeake are all known as "The Mother
> of Waters"... GoogleHits research results:
>
> "Mother of waters" - 950 hits
> "Father of waters" - 16,700 hits
"uncle of waters" - 0 hits
The Hand of Disney cannot reach taht far yet...
Morgil
Morgil
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>Perhaps there is basis for a new faction within the Tolkien
>>newsgroups -- the reign of the eccentric nut-cases is over: now has
>>dawned the age of the Tolkien On-line Oligarchy of the Disturbingly
>>Uniformly Mind-Boggled ;-)
Hmmm, TO-LOOT-DUMB... it sounds like a pay-phone number of UFBAF.
> I associate myself with this post. Yes, what a horrible, horrible fate
> it is to boggle one's mind! I quayl at the thought. Not only that, but
> well I knew that you, Sir Troels, would be wroth on cause of the
> flagrant abuse of your sufferance, largesse, bounty and courtesy, and
> in a manner with the Dunadan as well. But all his language Sir Jimbo
> said by cause he would anger Sir Curse, yet it is not meet that the
> foreshadowing should be thus disinterred by those who would question
> your knighthood, not to mention your honesty when discussing the
> story-internal ungentleness that you so cunningly scried despite the
> crafty machinations of Sir Jimbo and Sir Jamie. The interestimg aspect
> must not be abandoned thus! In faith, Sir Troels, I am behind you! And
> also beside you, beneath you and atop you!
>
> Your most obedient, humble servant
You should know better then to buy pipeweed from Tolkien's
private reserve...
Morgil
Pseudonymus al-Faqha'ter III
Morgil wrote:
> hen...@swirve.com kirjoitti:
> > I associate myself with this post. Yes, what a horrible, horrible fate
> > it is to boggle one's mind! I quayl at the thought. Not only that, but
> > well I knew that you, Sir Troels, would be wroth on cause of the
> > flagrant abuse of your sufferance, largesse, bounty and courtesy, and
> > in a manner with the Dunadan as well. But all his language Sir Jimbo
> > said by cause he would anger Sir Curse, yet it is not meet that the
> > foreshadowing should be thus disinterred by those who would question
> > your knighthood, not to mention your honesty when discussing the
> > story-internal ungentleness that you so cunningly scried despite the
> > crafty machinations of Sir Jimbo and Sir Jamie. The interestimg aspect
> > must not be abandoned thus! In faith, Sir Troels, I am behind you! And
> > also beside you, beneath you and atop you!
> >
> > Your most obedient, humble servant
>
> You should know better then to buy pipeweed from Tolkien's
> private reserve...
Just because *you*'re too thick to understand the plain meaning of
words doesn't mean that Mr. Engels is on drugs.
His statement is an object lesson in lucidity.
If you wish to read the collected works of this great writer, call
1-800-OWISDOM. You'll get a copy of "A 12-step Program towards being
like Hrous Engels" absolutely FREE!
PS. It's *die* Donau.
Pseudonymus al-Faqha'ter III
Morgil wrote:
> JimboCat kirjoitti:
> > "Mother of waters" - 950 hits
> > "Father of waters" - 16,700 hits
>
> "uncle of waters" - 0 hits
>
> The Hand of Disney cannot reach taht far yet...
But it will!
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> PS. It's *die* Donau.
"Die Donau"? Why do you wish death upon an innocent river?
Öjevind
Tamf Moo
>> PS. It's *die* Donau.
>
> "Die Donau"? Why do you wish death upon an innocent river?
it murdered frodo's parents!
and wet bombadil's boots!
tamf
Phlip
>> "Die Donau"? Why do you wish death upon an innocent river?
>
> it murdered frodo's parents!
Frodo: "No Hobbit has ever killed another on purpose in the Shire, and it's
not going to start now."
--
Phlip
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
Taemon
> Tamf Moo wrote:
>> Ojevind Lang wrote:
>>> "Die Donau"? Why do you wish death upon an innocent river?
>> it murdered frodo's parents!
> Frodo: "No Hobbit has ever killed another on purpose in the
> Shire, and it's not going to start now."
The Donau is a Hobbit? The mind boggles.
T.
Phlip
> The Donau is a Hobbit? The mind boggles.
How did Frodo's parents die? What's the rumor?
Öjevind Lång
news:1hhng.157657$F_3.1...@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
> Taemon wrote:
>
>> The Donau is a Hobbit? The mind boggles.
>
> How did Frodo's parents die? What's the rumor?
They were drowned by a queer foreign hobbit called Danilo Mauritz von
Schönendonau.
Öjevind
TT Arvind
> In Latin it is neuter (flumen), but seems to have gone into the masculine
> in the daughter languages which have lost the neuter gender. In the
> Norwegian dialects which have retained all three genders it is feminine (ei
> elv, elva), or masculine (ein flod, floden)
"Flod" is actually feminine in Nynorsk (ei flod, floda), and masculine
in Bokmål (en flod, floden).
--
Arvind
Les grandes personnes sont décidément bien bizarres, se dit le petit
prince.
Christopher Kreuzer
Is that Brandywine in German?
Taemon
> Taemon wrote:
>> The Donau is a Hobbit? The mind boggles.
> How did Frodo's parents die? What's the rumor?
The Donau rose from her bed, walked up to them and strangled them
both?
T.
Öjevind Lång
news:jMjng.91033$wl.6...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Öjevind Lång <bredba...@ojevind.lang> wrote:
[snip]
>> They were drowned by a queer foreign hobbit called Danilo Mauritz von
>> Schönendonau.
>
> Is that Brandywine in German?
No, "An der schönen blauen Donau" means "On the beautiful, blue Danube".
Öjevind
Tamf Moo
>> How did Frodo's parents die? What's the rumor?
>
> The Donau rose from her bed, walked up to them and strangled them
> both?
very much like the Bruinen rose from its bed to throttle Sauron's
jockeys. i tell you, people keep worrying about trees when these rivers
have enjoyed far too good a rep for far too long!
tamf
JimboCat
>> "Mother of waters" - 950 hits
>> "Father of waters" - 16,700 hits
>
>"uncle of waters" - 0 hits
>
>The Hand of Disney cannot reach taht far yet...
"first and second cousin, once removed either way" of waters - 89 hits
The Arm of Tolkien has grown long indeed, if he can draw hits down on
google from his book fifty years away...
Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
'But that's not "for all intents and purposes", that's only
"for the vast majority of empirical cetaceans".' - Wayne Throop
Shanahan
> Troels Forchammer wrote:
>
>> Perhaps there is basis for a new faction within the Tolkien
>> newsgroups -- the reign of the eccentric nut-cases is over: now has
>> dawned the age of the Tolkien On-line Oligarchy of the Disturbingly
>> Uniformly Mind-Boggled ;-)
I joined that faction two years ago! <g>
<snip>
> A pity. It would probably have made it clear that I have (apparently)
> far less patience with post-modernism than you do. This site generates
> a brand-new and totally meaningless post-modernist essay for you every
> time you load it. They read great. They appear to be highly
> significant, if a bit abstruse. But there is no thought behind them at
> all: a cleverly-designed text generator is all there is. The .sig
> quote on that post of mine was from one of those.
<delurks>
Even better: here's an analysis that is both complete and utter elitist
PM nonsense, and that makes perfect sense of its theme. How PM can you
get?
http://www.io.com/~phoebus/gilligan.html
- Ciaran S.
------------------------------------------------------
"If Bruce Springsteen had ever recorded 'Born to Lurk',
these two would have been on the album cover."
- /Good Omens/
"I'm not lurking! I'm hanging about.
It's a whole 'nother vibe."
- BtVS
Morgoth's Curse
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>> The sons of Feanor are justifiably considered villains in the
>> Silmarillion, but the geography of eastern Beleriand makes it
>> clear that they had their heroic moments as well.
>[...]
>
>From the preceding chapter, regarding exactly the position of the
>Fëanor-sons in the north-east where 'there was little defence of hill
>or river against assault from Angband':
>
> It is said indeed that Maedhros himself devised this plan,
> to lessen the chances of strife, and because he was very
> willing that the chief peril of assault should fall upon
> himself; and he remained for his part in friendship with
> the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin, and would come among
> them at times for common counsel.
>
>While undeniably courageous, I suspect that there is in this also an
>element of that pride and arrogance that so characterizes most of the
>brothers; a firm belief that they were better capable of repelling an
>attack from Angband in poorly defensible positions.
That is an interesting idea. I had previously assumed that the idea
was to put some distance between the sons of Feanor and the rest of
the Noldor while still permitting the two factions to rapidly join
forces as the strategy was primarily designed by Maedhros. I always
regarded Maedhros as less arrogant than his brothers, but you are
correct: He was not immune to the pride that was the bane of the
House of Feanor. I have reread the Silmarillion several times and I
am still uncertain about the chain of command in the House of Feanor
after the death of Feanor. The brothers occasionally seem to defer to
Maedhros, but more often act like independent princes and rulers. I
wonder if Tolkien himself ever clarified the matter?
>
>> It is a testimonial to the arrogance of the sons of Feanor that
>> Maedhros did not give nearly as much thought to the political
>> consequences of settling East Beleriand as Fingolfin had.
>
>Their father wasn't exactly a role-model of diplomacy and political
>foresight, was he ;-) And long-term strategy wasn't his strong suit
>either, if we judge by his headlong assault on Thangorodrim.
Touche! ;-) On the other hand, Feanor did win the Second Battle
(though he himself was slain) in spite of the fact that his forces
were outnumbered and taken by surprise...
>
>> Caranthir, who is described as the harshest and haughtiest of the
>> brothers, is tasked to guard Thargelion and Lake Helevorn even
>> though it is the nearest land to the dwarven cities of Belegost
>> and Nogrod and makes antagonism between the two allies almost
>> inevitable.
>
>Did the Noldor even know about the Dwarves at that point? The text says
>that 'thus it was that Caranthir's people came upon the Dwarves, who
>after the onslaught of Morgoth and the coming of the Noldor had ceased
>their traffic into Beleriand', but that doesn't necessarily mean that
>the Noldor hadn't heard about the Naugrim from the Sindar.
>
>If we assume that Maedhros didn't know about the Dwarves, then
>Caranthir was actually placed the furthest from any allies, and with
>some of his brothers between him and any other Elves.
I had assumed that the Noldor knew of the existence of the Naugrim and
the location of their cities because Angrod had visited Thingol in
Menegroth and that had been0 built with the aid of the Dwarves. Angrod
would have passed this news to his brethren during their council in
Mithrim, but I cannot prove that and your speculation is entirely
plausible. It is also possible that even if the Noldor knew about the
existence of the Naugrim, they were not overly concerned about them.
The dwarves had not yet proven themselves in battle beside the Elves
although the fact that they had designed and forged the first weapons
for Thingol and the Sindar should have been an important cue of their
attitude towards war.
><snip>
>
>> Why did none of the Noldor ever cross the Ered Lindon into
>> Eriador?
>
>Or go south along the coasts, for that matter.
>
>> Some of the loremasters must have remembered that not all of
>> the Elves had made the journey to Valinor.
>
>There was a lot of them living right there in Beleriand -- even the
>people of Denethor, son of Lenwë who had forsaken the Great March to
>turn south along the Anduin.
>
>> If nothing else, an expedition to locate their lost kindred would
>> have gained valuable intelligence about Morgoth's activities east
>> of the mountains.
>
>It would probably have encountered Men far earlier (assuming that it
>was sent out early enough), which might have been an advantage, but
>which also, in the light of some of the 'mistaken beliefs' that sent
>the Noldor on their march, could have been the very reason they didn't
>go during the long peace (and after that they had enough to do to mind
>their own business).
>
>More seriously, Fëanor's sons had no business east of the Blue
>Mountains: the Silmarils were in Angband, and therefore they settled
>within striking distance of the gates to Angband.
Indeed. I had forgotten the Silmarils were always the dominant
objective of the sons of Feanor. They certainly would not have been
thrilled if Fingolfin and his house somehow recovered the Silmarils
instead.
>
>For Fingolfin's host, I don't know. They were more active in
>establishing tolerable relations to the other inhabitants in Beleriand,
>and possibly they were simply busy enough with what they had in
>Beleriand -- time for investigations beyond Beleriand later, as they
>may have thought.
Yes, we should never forget that time was less meaningful to the elves
since they had so much of it to spare.
>
>> And, finally, a few questions for those who are so fortunate
>> as to own a complete copy of HoME. How many times did Tolkien
>> revise the geography of Beleriand?
>
>I cannot say how many times they were revised, neither in substance or
>in details. In HoMe XI 'War of the Jewels', CT writes about the
>Beleriand maps:
>
> [...] all later changes were roughly done, some of them
> mere scribbled indications, and also that they were made
> at many different times, in pencil, coloured pencil, blue,
> black and red ink, and red, green and blue ball-point pen,
> [...].
>
>He tells that the initial maps were discernible amid all the later
>changes, and those he has reproduced in volume 5 (The Lost Road) and in
>volume 11 he has then reproduced the emended versions, though he notes
>that 'the appearance of the actual map is very different from these
>redrawings.'
>
>The changes that he subsequently describes are mostly name-changes and
>minor additions, such as new contributary rivers etc.
>
>I'll leave it to others to comment in more detail, as I have yet to
>study the maps in greater detail.
Thanks for the info! :-) It is interesting that the basic geography
of Beleriand seems to have become fixed early in Tolkien's imagination
while the tales continued to evolve throughout his life.
Morgoth's Curse