Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.7: "In the House of Tom Bombadil"
Henriette
http://parasha.maoltuile.org/ . Take the once-in-a-lifetime
opportunity
to volunteer for a chapter yourself! Of Book I Chapter 9
"At the Sign of the Prancing Pony" (due in 2 weeks) and Chapter 11 "A
Knife in the Dark" have as yet not been accounted for.
Summary (with thanks to Troels for the concept of the lay-out).
Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin enter Tom Bombadil's stone house, which
is
described in detail throughout the chapter [1]. They are welcomed [2]
by
the fair and merry Goldberry [3], Daughter of the River, who deeply
moves
them to happiness, especially Frodo.[4] She invites them to sit down
and wait
for the "Master of the house". Frodo asks Goldberry who Tom Bombadil
is,
which she explains [5] Washed and refreshed, the hobbits have supper
with Tom and Goldberry [6], during which they become aware that they
sing merrily.[7] When Goldberry wishes them goodnight and peace until
the
morning [8], Frodo asks the question which also haunts many an
AFT/RABT-poster: if Tom heard him call when he cried
for help in the Old Forest, or if chance brought him. Tom answers
that he did not hear him calling: "Just chance brought me then, if
chance you call it" [9], although he had been waiting for the hobbits.
He sings about the errand he had there: gathering water-lilies, and
about
how he met Goldberry. The question about the Willow-Man he leaves
unanswered for the moment at the explicit wish of Merry and Pippin. He
wishes them goodnight in rhyme and also tells them not to be afraid
during the night.
Frodo dreams of a pinnacle/tower of stone, surrounded by a
plain where the crying of fell voices is heard and the howling of
wolves. On the pinnacle a figure stands. His staff flashes light and
he
is carried away by an eagle.[10] Frodo hears the sound of galloping
hoofs and wakes up, thinking: "Black Riders!" Pippins pleasant dreams
are
disturbed by noises of branches fretting in the wind, scraping
twig-fingers and the remembrance of Old Man Willow, but both he and
Merry (who in his dreams fears he is drowning) are uplifted by the
comforting words Tom and Goldberry spoke before they went to sleep.
In the morning they are woken by a whistling, singing and clapping Tom
[11], who says he has already walked wide and wakened
Goldberry. "In the night little folk wake up in the darkness, and
sleep
after light has come", he says mysteriously, after Frodo has
checked for footprints around the house and Pippin for signs of Old
Man
Willow. They only see a well tended garden[12], the grey
sky, fog and the Valley of the Withywindle.When the hobbits have their
breakfast by themselves, they hear the clattering and singing
of Tom about the house and the singing of Goldberry, which to them
seems clearly a rain-song, to which they listen with delight.
Frodo sees Tom come home, warding off the rain by waving his arms and
indeed he seems quite dry, except for his boots. Tom tells,
this is Goldberry's washing day and her autumn-cleaning: "Too wet for
hobbit-folk", so he tells them remarkable stories: about the
Old Forest, the dangerous Old man Willow[13], nature, the history of
the
Barrow-wights of Barrow-downs and then more ancient
history. He tells and tells, sings, dances, jumps about and sometimes
nods as if falling asleep. Frodo cannot tell if one day or many
days have passed when he finally asks: "Who are you, Master? " Tom
answers: "Don't you know my name yet? That's the only
answer". But he ads: "Eldest, that's what I am", and he gives an
indication of just how long he's been around: for millenia.
Goldberry enters[14], and she and Tom set the table: "(...)in some
fashion they seemed to weave a single dance". They eat and sing.
After Goldberry has wished them goodnight, Tom tells about his
dealings
with Farmer Maggot and the Elves, and that he knew
about Frodo's flight. He asks them many questions and Frodo opens up
to
him more than he ever has before to anyone. When Tom asks for the
"precious Ring", Frodo hands it at once. When Tom puts it on, it
does not make him disappear, instead he makes the Ring
disappear. Frodo, slightly annoyed by Tom's making light of this
dangerous Ring and to make sure it still is *his* Ring, silently puts
it
on and creeps away. Merry stares blankly at his chair, but Tom calls
him
back with most seeing (blue) eyes. Tom advices them to
leave early next day, tells them which way to take and teaches them to
sing a rhyme in case they should fall into any danger or
difficulty the next day.
Points, comments, questions, remarks, trivia and wild speculations:
[1a] Note for barb: The candles are first described as being yellow,
later as
white and yellow. But we do not know if Tom, like Beorn, kept bees.
Actually
no "domestic" animals are mentioned at all, in spite of all the cream
and honey.
[2] Obviously JRRT thought of hospitality as a virtue, the way it
traditionally used to be as we know from literature/opera: e.g.
Ernani, Die Walküre. Many hobbits, a bear, elves, men, Ents, etc., and
here Tom and Goldberry, try their best to be hospitable and make the
hobbits very comfortable.
[3]Another mentioning of the mysterious: "You are an elf-friend", by
Goldberry to Frodo: "the light in your eyes and the ring in your
voice tells it". (Should that not be: tell it?)
[4] Prof. Tolkien really must have had a high EQ: Frodo, when he first
meets
Goldberry he feels his heart "moved with a joy that he did not
understand. He stood as he had at times stood enchanted by fair
elven-voices; but the spell that was now laid upon him was different:
less keen and lofty was the delight, but deeper and nearer to mortal
heart; marvellous and yet not strange". I really have to concentrate
hard to be able to grasp this.
[5a] According to all the threads dedicated to the subject, not at all
satisfactorily. Steuard Jensen has written extensively and
interestingly about Tom:
http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/Bombadil.html ,
but after dealing with the likelihood of several explanations of Tom,
draws the conclusion that Tom remains an enigma. I think Tom is an
Enlightened being. He is Eldest on a larger scale than the softrat,
but not on such a large scale as Eru. I like Goldberry's Zen-like
answer: "He Is", and Tom's answer later:
"Don't you know my name yet? That is the only answer".
I am very fond of Tom and Goldberry, and I deliberately planned to
volunteer for this chapter well in advance, for fear it would fall
into the hands of the Tom-haters, of which quite a few are around. Why
do posters dislike Tom and call him e.g."the Unspeakable
Idiot with the yellow bootsies" (Taemon, and then there is Count
Menelvagor)?
Are they envious because he is happy, tells stories enchantingly, has
thick brown hair, because he can ward off the rain, because he is a
good partner to one of the most beautiful (and sensuous, says Raven)
women of Middle-Earth, or because he has no fear and gives us a
glimpse of what Real Power is? Or
are they just annoyed because he dances and sings continually? Or
because he likes colourful clothes and is playful enough to stick a
feather in his hat? To the people who are annoyed by his style of
clothing I dedicate this
quote from the musical Hair: "There is a peculiar notion that elegant
plumage/ and fine feathers/ are not proper for the male/ when
actually/ that is the way things are /in most species.
[5b]Why has "Who is Tom Bombadil" become a standard question, and not
"Who is Goldberry?". The River-Daughter? Found by Tom? How clear is
that? Did anyone else think of "Wagner's" Rhine-daughters? What do we
know of the relationship of Tom and Goldberry? Are they "even"
married? Isn't it wonderful the way Tom is courteous towards
Goldberry, takes care she has fresh
waterlilies ("incidently" my favorite flowers), and helps out (without
reminding) with the household duties?
[5c] I like this remark by Goldberry: "The trees and the grasses and
all
things growing or living in the land belong each to themselves".
[6] *Yellow* cream? I only know white cream.
[7a] "The drink in their drinking-bowls seemed to be clear cold water,
yet it went to their hearts like wine and set free their voices". It
reminds one of the ent-draughts.
[7b] Did anyone ever wonder what type of singing-voice Tom, Goldberry
and the hobbits have? I would say:
Tom-bass-baritone, Goldberry-lyric soprano, Frodo and Pipin-lyric
tenor,
Sam and Merry: lyric baritone.
[7c] Isn't it wonderful the way in which the importance of singing is
stressed in this chapter: Old Grey Man Willow is a mighty singer,
Goldberry sings a rain-song, and everyone sings a lot. I do not think
it so strange. There is a theory that singing is more "natural" than
talking, and there are stories about how everyone sung in the
pre-TV/radio times.
[8] Moment of literary awe: "The sound of her footsteps was like a
stream falling gently away downhill over cool stones in the quiet of
night".
[9] Call it Chance, call it God, Providence, Fate, Destiny,
Synchronicity or Clearsightedness, as you will. You will have to make
another choice when Tom says later: "In the night little folk wake up
in the darkness" (In TH Beorn is also aware of the hobbits dreams) and
yet another choice
when it is said: "it seemed as if, under the spell of his words, the
wind had gone, and the clouds had dried up (...)".
[10] Ofcourse Frodo has a (clairvoyant) dream about Gandald here. I
forgot wether it had already happened at that point in time or is
still bound to happen, but on the dream-level time is not important.
[11] Why does Tom wake the hobbits (and Goldberry) so mercilessly,
just
because he appears to need very little sleep himself? When a few hours
later he says: "Let them rest while they are able".....
[12] Kitchen-garden: what is that? In any case, Tom and/or Goldberry
(I
put my money on Tom) work the garden, as they grow beans, have a
flower-garden, a clipped hedge and shaven grass (and berries).
[13a] Old Man Willow seems to be the Dark Lord on a small scale. Frodo
now "learns enough to content him". So do I, but AC and other posters
apparently don't. Maybe now is the time to exchange ideas. I don't
think
OMW has anything to do with Ents/Huorns, but what *do* we know: a
descendant of the fathers of the fathers of trees, dangerous and
powerful, a strongwilled and mighty singer.
[13b] Surprising, that a tree-lover like JRRT speaks about trees
filled
with malice and OMW even has a "rotten heart".
[14] Twice JRRT gives a detailed account of the pretty clothes
Goldberry
is wearing. Some designer! Were they ever really made, I
wonder? How about her shoes "like fishes'mail"? He also describes
Tom's
clothes repeatedly. In bright colours, like those of most
hobbits and dwarves. He must have liked bright and colourful clothes,
which he may have seen in South Africa (this is an example of a wild
speculation).
When you have a sense of humour, and are not overly sensitive to
JRRT's
works being parodised, do have a look at one of the
*funniest* chapters of the LOTR E-text. It is written by Aris
Katsaris:
http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/book/book1_07.htm
Here are two exerpts which may give you an idea:
1)The four hobbits stepped over the threshold and stood
still, gaping. In a chair sat a woman; she wore nothing more
than a bathrobe, her long yellow hair tangled in an unruly
mess. It was obvious from her tired look that this lady had
listened to more silly songs than was bearable. It was also
obvious that Tom had good taste where women were concerned.
The opposite wasn't certain at all.
2)and still Tom went singing out into such times
as only ancient myths described, when people left the
doors unlocked at night, and even further back, when
those damn kids knew some proper respect for their
parents. Then suddenly he stopped, and they saw that
he nodded as if he had bored even himself to sleep.
With all his parody, Aris drew my attention to what I hadn't noticed
previously: that Goldberry is absent during most of the
conversation between Tom and the hobbits. In the end though, she "sang
many songs with them".
Please feel free to add your own points, and do share your insights
and maybe wild speculations!
Henriette
Belba Grubb from Stock
<snip excellent summary>
>[1a] Note for barb: The candles are first described as being yellow,
>later as white and yellow. But we do not know if Tom, like Beorn, kept bees.
>Actually no "domestic" animals are mentioned at all, in spite of all the cream
>and honey.
Thanks, Henriette (g). There is white beeswax, too, that has been
purified of all the propolis, etc., or so the online suppliers say
(and I thought for sure somebody replied in the "Candlers" thread with
a description of how to do that -- it involved boiling water -- but
now I can't find such a message either in my own files or those of
Google Groups).
That's an interesting comparison: Tom and Beorn. Both are strong,
"natural force" kinds of guys who are unafraid of the dangerous world
around them and have their own territory which they are easily able to
defend; both also give necessary aid to our traveling heros. With
Beorn, the honey fit in quite well with the overall bear motif; with
Bombadil, perhaps it's more a childhood pleasure thing? Just a guess,
from something said in one of the early threads that came up in a
Google search of threads for the word "beeswax" (one about the food
served in The House of Bombadil) that described the pleasure of
chewing beeswax and extracting every bit of sweetness from it.
Tom certainly could have gotten honey from a tree used by wild bees in
the forest. But the cream, now, would require cattle (the yellow
color, I think, comes from extremely high fat content and/or from
certain breeds of cattle), and those certainly could have been
wandering over the downs, unseen by the hobbits during their very
limited visit and departure.
>[2] Obviously JRRT thought of hospitality as a virtue, the way it
>traditionally used to be as we know from literature/opera: e.g.
>Ernani, Die Walküre. Many hobbits, a bear, elves, men, Ents, etc., and
>here Tom and Goldberry, try their best to be hospitable and make the
>hobbits very comfortable.
Somewhere I have read, and I don't know how true it is, that JRRT was
influenced in some of the names he used by actual names in the
American South, specifically, Kentucky. Hospitality certainly is
enshrined as a major virtue in this region of the world, too. Another
influence, perhaps?
>[7b] Did anyone ever wonder what type of singing-voice Tom, Goldberry
>and the hobbits have? I would say:
>Tom-bass-baritone, Goldberry-lyric soprano, Frodo and Pipin-lyric
>tenor,
>Sam and Merry: lyric baritone.
Wonderful!! Agreed, though I also think Goldberry's voice would have
been soprano but with reedy overtones.
>[7c] Isn't it wonderful the way in which the importance of singing is
>stressed in this chapter: Old Grey Man Willow is a mighty singer,
>Goldberry sings a rain-song, and everyone sings a lot. I do not think
>it so strange. There is a theory that singing is more "natural" than
>talking, and there are stories about how everyone sung in the
>pre-TV/radio times.
They did, indeed, and whistled, too, at least in the countryside --
both were arts (and still are, though the number of individuals who
still tend to do one or the other spontaneously during normal
activities does seem to have decreased markedly over the years).
Why do I think this tendency to sing is still the case in Ireland?
BTW, if you happen to have a cat, try talking gentle nonsense to it
(kittykittykitty or pusspusspuss ad infinitum will do) and then
varying the tones up and down, as if you're singing it. Maybe my
kitty-boy is an exception, but this just turns him into a feline
equivalent of butter. Definitely a means of communication there.
Hmmm...wonder if it would calm crying babies?
>[8] Moment of literary awe: "The sound of her footsteps was like a
>stream falling gently away downhill over cool stones in the quiet of
>night".
A shared moment -- that description has always stood out for its
exceptional beauty.
>[10] Ofcourse Frodo has a (clairvoyant) dream about Gandald here. I
>forgot wether it had already happened at that point in time or is
>still bound to happen, but on the dream-level time is not important.
Gandalf says later that it came too late, but it's interesting that
later, during the Council, Frodo can't remember when he had the dream.
>Please feel free to add your own points, and do share your insights
>and maybe wild speculations!
Well, I've wildly speculated elsewhere about who Tom Bombadil is (he
is) and will just put up for consideration here, for whatever its
worth, a comparison between Bombadil and another character in the
stories: Gollum. Has anybody else noticed that both tend to verbalize
their stream of consciousness, and that these are at either extreme in
the spectrum? Tom's is one of unalloyed joy; Gollum's is pretty
nassty, my preciouss, oh yessss.
If we were to verbalize our own streams of consciousness at various
points over 24 hours, I think they might resemble the one or the other
extreme at times (although certainly most often they would be a muddle
somewhere in between, right about where most of the characters in this
story are). That is to say, we have a strong reaction to both
extremes. It's an interesting and effective literary device to bring
us further into the story, and the contrast between them adds some
good tension, too.
Barb
Jette Goldie
"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote
> [1a] Note for barb: The candles are first described as being yellow,
> later as
> white and yellow. But we do not know if Tom, like Beorn, kept bees.
> Actually
> no "domestic" animals are mentioned at all, in spite of all the cream
> and honey.
Honey and beeswax might not mean *domesticated* bees,
but from wild bees - Tom seems canny enough that even
wild bees might be willing to let him help himself to a little
of each (and quite possibly he'd have arranged some kind
of trade/arrangement that suited the bees).
Cream - we know he was friends with Farmer Maggot - perhaps
he traded with him - or some other farmer (Hobbit or Man) for
dairy products?
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Raven
news:be50318e.0402...@posting.google.com...
> [2] Obviously JRRT thought of hospitality as a virtue, the way it
> traditionally used to be as we know from literature/opera: e.g.
> Ernani, Die Walküre. Many hobbits, a bear, elves, men, Ents, etc., and
> here Tom and Goldberry, try their best to be hospitable and make the
> hobbits very comfortable.
Hospitality has been a virtue in many places at many times, including the
old Germanic tribes, such as Anglo-Saxons and the Old Norse. A king in
particular must be hospitable; his ability and willingness to entertain
guests with food and shelter were a mark of his honour and his fitness to be
king. While some fools seem to think that strength is the ability to
destroy and to defeat, strength is more importantly the ability to give and
to aid.
> [3]Another mentioning of the mysterious: "You are an elf-friend", by
> Goldberry to Frodo: "the light in your eyes and the ring in your
> voice tells it". (Should that not be: tell it?)
If the light in his eyes and the ring in his voice independently told it,
then yes. If the combination of them told Goldberry, then the singular form
of the verb is fitting.
> I am very fond of Tom and Goldberry, and I deliberately planned to
> volunteer for this chapter well in advance, for fear it would fall
> into the hands of the Tom-haters, of which quite a few are around. Why
> do posters dislike Tom and call him e.g."the Unspeakable
> Idiot with the yellow bootsies" (Taemon, and then there is Count
> Menelvagor)?
I also am fond of Tom. It enriches the book that Tolkien wrote him in.
Raafje.
Henriette
> <snip excellent summary>
>
Thank you! I was very much tempted to write: "The hobbits spend the
night at Tom and Goldberry愀" for a summary..........
> (snip)There is white beeswax, too, that has been
> purified of all the propolis, etc., or so the online suppliers say
> (and I thought for sure somebody replied in the "Candlers" thread with
> a description of how to do that -- it involved boiling water -- but
> now I can't find such a message either in my own files or those of
> Google Groups).
I haven愒 seen the description. I wonder if this white beeswax, from
which I扉e never heard, would smell as nice as the yellow one?
>
> That's an interesting comparison: Tom and Beorn. (snip comparison)
> Google search of threads for the word "beeswax" (one about the food
> served in The House of Bombadil) that described the pleasure of
> chewing beeswax and extracting every bit of sweetness from it.
>
I have been comparing them also, because I "hosted" Beorn愀 chapter as
well as Tom愀. I think I could write a booklet comparing them, but my
treatise of Tom愀 chapter was long enough as it was.... As for chewing
beeswax (with the honey still in it ofcourse) isn愒 that delightful?
> Tom certainly could have gotten honey from a tree used by wild bees in
Yes, or as someone in this thread suggested, he could swap goods with
Farmer Maggot (cream for songs?)
> the forest. But the cream, now, would require cattle (the yellow
> color, I think, comes from extremely high fat content and/or from
> certain breeds of cattle),
Or it could have been whipped with honey...
> Somewhere I have read, and I don't know how true it is, that JRRT was
> influenced in some of the names he used by actual names in the
> American South, specifically, Kentucky. Hospitality certainly is
> enshrined as a major virtue in this region of the world, too. Another
> influence, perhaps?
>
What names are you thinking of? As for hospitality, I think this is,
or was, internationally considered a virtue. Almost sacred in the
Scandinavian countries and Italy, as I know from the opera愀 I
mentioned. Also moving stories are told of people in poor countries
who share whatever little they have with strangers.
> >[7b] Did anyone ever wonder what type of singing-voice Tom, Goldberry
> >and the hobbits have? I would say:
> >Tom-bass-baritone, Goldberry-lyric soprano, Frodo and Pipin-lyric
> >tenor, Sam and Merry: lyric baritone.
>
> Wonderful!! Agreed, though I also think Goldberry's voice would have
> been soprano but with reedy overtones.
Yes, and preferably accompanied by the sound of running rivers and
waterfalls:-)
>
(on singing in days gone by)
> They did, indeed, and whistled, too, at least in the countryside --
> both were arts (and still are, though the number of individuals who
> still tend to do one or the other spontaneously during normal
> activities does seem to have decreased markedly over the years).
Although in NL the amount of people singing on a bike with a walkman
on their head is increasing....
>
> Why do I think this tendency to sing is still the case in Ireland?
>
LOL, because you have not seen Wilde Ier for some time and think he
may be busy singing somewhere?
> BTW, if you happen to have a cat, try talking gentle nonsense to it
> (kittykittykitty or pusspusspuss ad infinitum will do) and then
> varying the tones up and down, as if you're singing it. Maybe my
> kitty-boy is an exception, but this just turns him into a feline
> equivalent of butter. Definitely a means of communication there.
> Hmmm...wonder if it would calm crying babies?
There is a whole branch of science investigating the effects of all
kinds of sounds on all kinds of creatures (we owe "muzak" to that, if
that is how you also call the "musical wallpaper" in supermarkets
etc.). I think you could make a real contribution with your discovery!
>
> >Please feel free to add your own points, and do share your insights
> >and maybe wild speculations!
>
> Well, I've wildly speculated
LOL. Sometimes someone makes up a funny expression like Tamf did with
this one, which then lingers on AFT/RABT for some time...
> elsewhere about who Tom Bombadil is (he
> is) and will just put up for consideration here, for whatever its
> worth, a comparison between Bombadil and another character in the
> stories: Gollum. Has anybody else noticed that both tend to verbalize
> their stream of consciousness, and that these are at either extreme in
> the spectrum? Tom's is one of unalloyed joy; Gollum's is pretty
> nassty, my preciouss, oh yessss.
An interesting comparison, which I certainly had never thought of.
I扉e had two colleagues on different occasions, who were constantly
(mostly softly)verbalizing their stream of consciousness. Amazing!
>
> (snip) It's an interesting and effective literary device to bring
> us further into the story, and the contrast between them adds some
> good tension, too.
Yes!
Henriette
Henriette
> Honey and beeswax might not mean *domesticated* bees,
> but from wild bees - Tom seems canny enough that even
> wild bees might be willing to let him help himself to a little
> of each (and quite possibly he'd have arranged some kind
> of trade/arrangement that suited the bees).
LOL, what are you thinking of? I didn´t even think of wild bees, thank
you.
>
> Cream - we know he was friends with Farmer Maggot - perhaps
> he traded with him - or some other farmer (Hobbit or Man) for
> dairy products?
Let´s say he had arranged some kind of trade/arrangement that suited
Farmer Maggot, I like that. Maybe Tom gave a sing/dance/juggle
performance once a week?
Henriette
Henriette
> Hospitality has been a virtue in many places at many times, including the
> old Germanic tribes, such as Anglo-Saxons and the Old Norse. A king in
> particular must be hospitable; his ability and willingness to entertain
> guests with food and shelter were a mark of his honour and his fitness to be
> king.
Could anyone just knock at his door? That would be something in this
day and age, for all the homeless.
> While some fools seem to think that strength is the ability to
> destroy and to defeat, strength is more importantly the ability to give and
> to aid.
One of the reasons IMO Tom embodies Real Power.
>
> > (snip)"the light in your eyes and the ring in your
> > voice tells it". (Should that not be: tell it?)
>
> If the light in his eyes and the ring in his voice independently told it,
> then yes. If the combination of them told Goldberry, then the singular form
> of the verb is fitting.
Shouldn´t that be the other way round: the light tells it and the
light plus the ring tell it?
>
> I also am fond of Tom. It enriches the book that Tolkien wrote him in.
>
How about Goldberry:-)
Henriette
Belba Grubb from Stock
>Thank you! I was very much tempted to write: "The hobbits spend the
>night at Tom and Goldberry愀" for a summary..........
Such an uproar that would have caused!!!! Glad you resisted
temptation.
>I haven愒 seen the description. I wonder if this white beeswax, from
>which I扉e never heard, would smell as nice as the yellow one?
I don't know -- have gotten some of the yellow beeswax and should
probably get some of the white for comparison. Anyway, I think they
used beeswax in the House of Bombadil, for no other reason than that
tallow just doesn't fit there somehow.
>Yes, or as someone in this thread suggested, he could swap goods with
>Farmer Maggot (cream for songs?)
An excellent idea.
>Or it could have been whipped with honey...
That would make it honey butter (which is delicious).
>What names are you thinking of? As for hospitality, I think this is,
>or was, internationally considered a virtue. Almost sacred in the
>Scandinavian countries and Italy, as I know from the opera愀 I
>mentioned. Also moving stories are told of people in poor countries
>who share whatever little they have with strangers.
Not having traveled internationally very much (though certainly the
British and Scottish are friendly and hospitable), I didn't realize
how much hospitality is respected everywhere. As they say in Latin
countries (and here in the States in quite a few places, too), mi casa
es su casa (my house is your house).
Don't get me going on the names -- having discovered I'm now "the
Grubb" (that's OK, Jim -- goes with the territory, I guess), I looked
in the phone book here in the deep South last night and found quite a
few Grubbs and Grubbses, if you follow me. I feel a sort of special
connection to them now (BG), though I know none of them. There are
some Bunces in Georgia ("Mimosa Bunce," in I think Bilbo's family
tree); however, will try to locate the source of that Tolkien
names/Kentucky remark, and look in some online directories and see if
a pattern can actually be found.
>Although in NL the amount of people singing on a bike with a walkman
>on their head is increasing....
Ah but if done in traffic, there is a darwinian limitation to it, no?
As you have suggested, all the radio and TV have just discouraged the
practice, which is too bad. I love in the books how Bilbo encourages
Frodo to bring back, among other things, songs and how Sam will say at
times, that's a nice song, I 'd like to learn that.
>> Why do I think this tendency to sing is still the case in Ireland?
>>
>LOL, because you have not seen Wilde Ier for some time and think he
>may be busy singing somewhere?
Could be. :-) A tenor, perhaps?
>> Well, I've wildly speculated
>
>LOL. Sometimes someone makes up a funny expression like Tamf did with
>this one, which then lingers on AFT/RABT for some time...
It's a classic now, isn't it.
>An interesting comparison, which I certainly had never thought of.
>I扉e had two colleagues on different occasions, who were constantly
>(mostly softly)verbalizing their stream of consciousness. Amazing!
Hope neither was a Gollum type, though Hey dol! Merry Dol! and so
forth could get pretty disorienting after a while, too, unless you're
a Goldberry type and can just flow out of the room for a break from
time to time.
Barb
Celaeno
>But the cream, now, would require cattle (the yellow
>color, I think, comes from extremely high fat content and/or from
>certain breeds of cattle),
Yes. Milk is really a faintly yellowish white, for that matter.
Cel
Is it sekrit? Is it safe?
Jette Goldie
"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be50318e.04030...@posting.google.com...
> "Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in message
news:<oBN0c.6198$qY5.91...@news-text.cableinet.net>...
>
> > Honey and beeswax might not mean *domesticated* bees,
> > but from wild bees - Tom seems canny enough that even
> > wild bees might be willing to let him help himself to a little
> > of each (and quite possibly he'd have arranged some kind
> > of trade/arrangement that suited the bees).
>
> LOL, what are you thinking of? I didn´t even think of wild bees, thank
> you.
> >
Old Tom seems to be the kind of being who could probably
communicate with wild things like bees - perhaps he could
tell them of a tasty stand of high-pollen flowers, or plant
(or encourage growth of) such plants near their hive?
> > Cream - we know he was friends with Farmer Maggot - perhaps
> > he traded with him - or some other farmer (Hobbit or Man) for
> > dairy products?
>
> Let´s say he had arranged some kind of trade/arrangement that suited
> Farmer Maggot, I like that. Maybe Tom gave a sing/dance/juggle
> performance once a week?
Wild fruit that Maggot wouldn't have time to go harvesting?
Herbs that grow in the Old Forest? WILD mushrooms - the
woodland kind - Maggot's own mushrooms were probably
"field" type - he might have welcomed a change.
AC
>
> [13a] Old Man Willow seems to be the Dark Lord on a small scale. Frodo
> now "learns enough to content him". So do I, but AC and other posters
> apparently don't. Maybe now is the time to exchange ideas. I don't
> think
> OMW has anything to do with Ents/Huorns, but what *do* we know: a
> descendant of the fathers of the fathers of trees, dangerous and
> powerful, a strongwilled and mighty singer.
Since, as I recall, the Ents were put in Middle Earth at the request of
Yavana to protect the trees, I can only assume that Old Man Willow is either
an ent, or possibly a malevolent spirit.
> [13b] Surprising, that a tree-lover like JRRT speaks about trees
> filled
> with malice and OMW even has a "rotten heart".
I attribute at least some of the malice to the trees of the Old Forest
hating those who go on two legs.
--
Aaron Clausen
tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
AC
Raven <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
>
> I also am fond of Tom. It enriches the book that Tolkien wrote him in.
Yes, on the rereads I've done in the last six or seven years, I've found
myself looking forward to the chapter. Tom is such an enigma, and though
this was an obstacle when I first read the book, now it makes sense, though
I can't quite put my finger on why.
RPN
> will try to locate the source of that Tolkien names/Kentucky remark
I'm pretty sure that what you have in mind is Guy Davenport's article
"Hobbitry," originally published in the *New York Times* and reprinted
in Davenport's collection *The Geography of the Imagination*.
RPN
Raven
> "Raafje" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message
news:<eNN0c.13246$jN1....@news.get2net.dk>...
> > Hospitality has been a virtue in many places at many times, including
> > the old Germanic tribes, such as Anglo-Saxons and the Old Norse. A
> > king in particular must be hospitable; his ability and willingness to
> > entertain guests with food and shelter were a mark of his honour and
> > his fitness to be king.
> Could anyone just knock at his door? That would be something in this
> day and age, for all the homeless.
Very probably yes, except enemies to the king, people he held a grudge
against. And even then a man, unfriend to the king, walking in and asking
for the king's hospitality might be granted it, because it would be a shame
for the king to betray his duty to be hospitable.
Mind you, beggars and drifters would be placed at the lesser tables,
while ranking guests would be given seats of high status. And status of
seating was very important to the ancients. King Arthur's Round Table was
round to indicate that some of his knights were not more important than
others. The incident that sparked the mutual killng of slaves and servants
in Njal's saga was a woman feeling slighted that she had to give her
high-status seat to another who came after, and who was better liked by the
hostess.
I don't know what would have happened if a man tried to scrounge off the
king for a long time. I have heard of the Beduin rules of hospitality: a
good hosts feeds and shelters his guest for three days; a good guest does
not stay longer than three days. I have also heard about some Arab (from
the Arabian peninsula) Beduins who were outraged at the lack of hospitality
of Iranian Beduins: not because the Iranian Beduins held hospitality in low
esteem, but because among them the honour of offering hospitality was the
prerogative of the local Beduin chieftain.
I have read that in Ireland this duty to be hospitable was so strong that
if a man wanted to really humiliate a king, he would sit himself at the
king's doorstep and starve himself to death. This old custom supposedly
explains in part the IRA men starving themselves to death in prison.
> > > (snip)"the light in your eyes and the ring in your
> > > voice tells it". (Should that not be: tell it?)
> > If the light in his eyes and the ring in his voice independently told
> > it, then yes. If the combination of them told Goldberry, then the
> > singular form of the verb is fitting.
> Shouldn´t that be the other way round: the light tells it and the
> light plus the ring tell it?
Do a married couple go to a restaurant, or does a married couple go to a
restaurant?
The light and the ring tell it; the light + ring combination tells it.
> > I also am fond of Tom. It enriches the book that Tolkien wrote him
> > in.
> How about Goldberry:-)
Her too. But she's married, and I have standards. So much for wet
dreams. :-)
Raaf.
TT Arvind
> I have read that in Ireland this duty to be hospitable was so strong that
> if a man wanted to really humiliate a king, he would sit himself at the
> king's doorstep and starve himself to death. This old custom supposedly
> explains in part the IRA men starving themselves to death in prison.
There was an ancient Irish law which (quoting from memory) said that "if
a man wrongs you, then you may compel him to arbitrate; and if he refuses
to honour the award, then you may seat yourself on the threshold of his
house and starve yourself till you die, and all will then know his true
worth." Fine sentiments, perhaps, but at the end of the day it's not of
much use to the fellow who was wronged.
--
Meneldil
Important letters which contain no errors will develop errors in the
mail. Corresponding errors will show up in the duplicate while the Boss
is reading it.
Jim Deutch
>"Raafje" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message news:<eNN0c.13246$jN1....@news.get2net.dk>...
>
>> > (snip)"the light in your eyes and the ring in your
>> > voice tells it". (Should that not be: tell it?)
>>
>> If the light in his eyes and the ring in his voice independently told it,
>> then yes. If the combination of them told Goldberry, then the singular form
>> of the verb is fitting.
>
>Shouldn´t that be the other way round: the light tells it and the
>light plus the ring tell it?
Read that as "the-light-in-your-eyes-and-the-ring-in-your-voice tells
it". Sort of one long Entish-type word, for one quality, even though
it takes eleven words of English to approximate the meaning.
Jim Deutch
--
e^(i*pi) = -1
Jim Deutch
<ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>Don't get me going on the names -- having discovered I'm now "the
>Grubb" (that's OK, Jim -- goes with the territory, I guess)
Ah, the territory! I recently hooked up with a woman with three kids
and just got nicknamed "Jimbo the cat". I'd've hated that, once upon
a time, but now it just gives me warm fuzzies all over...
Jim Deutch
--
Is that a mirage or am I seeing things?
TT Arvind
> I think Tom is an Enlightened being. He is Eldest on a
> larger scale than the softrat, but not on such a large
> scale as Eru.
I agree very much with you, particularly your idea that Tom and Goldberry
have 'true' power.
If I may be permitted to ramble on for a bit, it seems to me that Tom and
Goldberry have this aura of power and 'exaltedness' about them because
they embody the "third theme" in its purest sense. The third theme was
triumphant because it took the worst of Melkor corruptions of Arda and
actually wove them into the overall beauty of the world. To me, this
signifies not just fighting evil, but actually rising beyond it, i.e.
getting to a stage where evil has no power over you, because the
instruments which it uses to gain power (greed, the promise of wealth and
power, etc.) no longer matter to you. Tolkien once said that if you
value things for themselves and not for yourself, the question of the
rights and wrongs of power and control become utterly meaningless, and
the means of power quite valueless. This is where Bombadil and Goldberry
are, I think, which is why the Ring had no attraction for them. They
represent a state of being where evil is not just fought, but has been
utterly repudiated. This is also why Tom and Goldberry seem so hobbitish
- JRRT said that hobbits are least touched by the malice of Melkor and
Sauron, so if Tom and Goldberry have rejected the temptations of evil,
they'll obviously seem most like those least touched by it. In my
opinion, this view of what Tom represents in the book is also supported
by Christian theology, particularly the figure of Melchizedek. Compare
the Hebrews 7 description of Melchizedek as being "without father or
mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life" with
the description of Bombadil in the Council of Elrond.
From a perspective of book appreciation, I think Tom serves as a fairly
strong counter-point to the action of the rest of the book. Morgoth and
Sauron wouldn't have ascended as they did without the aid of Men, and
much of our efforts must therefore be directed to the physical world and
the physical fight. But if all men had made the choice which Bombadil
and Goldberry did, then by their very rejection they could have moulded
the world to minimise the harm wrought by the Marring of Arda. In terms
of Tolkien's mythos, the Firstborn and the Valar would fought Melkor with
arms, while Men would have turned the Earth against his harms and healed
it of his hurts. And I think the implication is also that until Men make
the same choice, Arda will not be truly healed despite all the valour and
fortitude we may show. Tom and Goldberry are as close as we can get to
"unfallen" Man, to what Eru originally intended us to be.
This has obvious parallels with our world. Particularly in these times,
I think there are some fairly important lessons we can learn from Tom and
Goldberry.
--
Meneldil
At leve - er krig med trolde To live - is a war with trolls
i hjertets og hjernens hvælv. in the holds of heart and mind
At digte - det er at holde To write- that is to hold
dommedag over sig selv. Judgment day over oneself
- Ibsen
Count Menelvagor
> Wes šu Henriette hal!
> From a perspective of book appreciation, I think Tom serves as a fairly
> strong counter-point to the action of the rest of the book. Morgoth and
<snip>
Interesting ... I have a couple of vague notions about TB and
Goldberry, one being that they might represent a purely contemplative
approach to life (which is why they don't take an active role in
fighting Sauron), and another, if possible even vaguer, being that
they exemplify an outlook of life from before the sundering of science
and imagination, when song and the artistic response to nature was one
with the understanding of nature.
The bit about Goldberry offering a less lofty and more earthly delight
(which one could interpret somewhat tildily if one wanted) suggests to
me her closeness to the earth and association with simple, natural
pleasures; possibly the delight in the fruitfulness of the earth, or
something along those lines.
(Tom Bombadl's poetry is pretty appalling, though; I prefer Tim
Benzedrine's.)
Henriette
>
(snip)
> >>
> >LOL, because you have not seen Wilde Ier for some time and think he
> >may be busy singing somewhere?
>
> Could be. :-) A tenor, perhaps?
In NL the saying goes: "throw a pebble in a group of men and you will
hit a baritone", because that will be the case from a statistical
point of view. If Wilde Ier is a tenor, he should quickly develop his
voice (if necessary) and go into the singing business, because true
tenors are really needed, at least here.
As for Ireland, it does indeed host a *lot* of singers/ musicians, so
I have noticed.
>
> >> Well, I've wildly speculated
> >
> >LOL. Sometimes someone makes up a funny expression like Tamf did with
> >this one, which then lingers on AFT/RABT for some time...
>
> It's a classic now, isn't it.
Yes. "The Grubb" will soon be as well:-)
>
> >An interesting comparison, which I certainly had never thought of.
> >I´ve had two colleagues on different occasions, who were constantly
> >(mostly softly)verbalizing their stream of consciousness. Amazing!
>
> Hope neither was a Gollum type, though Hey dol! Merry Dol! and so
> forth could get pretty disorienting after a while, too, unless you're
> a Goldberry type and can just flow out of the room for a break from
> time to time.
>
So you also think Goldberry needed a break every now and then:-) My
colleagues were more saying what they were doing or planned to do, and
then how it went. I have tried it too, for fun, but it is not easy. I
cannot keep it up, because I cannot concentrate when I talk
incessantly.
Henriette
Henriette
I would never argue with someone with the same somewhat suspect
bloodtype as I have, still I would like to subtly point out that the
milk from your barbarian cows may be faintly yellowish white. When it
comes from my packs it is always astonishingly white.
Henriette
Henriette
>
> Old Tom seems to be the kind of being who could probably
> communicate with wild things like bees - perhaps he could
> tell them of a tasty stand of high-pollen flowers, or plant
> (or encourage growth of) such plants near their hive?
> Wild fruit that Maggot wouldn't have time to go harvesting?
> Herbs that grow in the Old Forest? WILD mushrooms - the
> woodland kind - Maggot's own mushrooms were probably
> "field" type - he might have welcomed a change.
Brava! Nice wild speculations!
Still I think he would also deserve some honey and cream when he sang
the songs that came up in his head spontaneously and/or when he did
some dancing.
Henriette
Henriette
> "Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:be50318e.04030...@posting.google.com...
> > Could anyone just knock at his door? That would be something in this
> > day and age, for all the homeless.
>
> Very probably yes, except enemies to the king, people he held a grudge
> against. And even then a man, unfriend to the king, walking in and asking
> for the king's hospitality might be granted it, because it would be a shame
> for the king to betray his duty to be hospitable.
> Mind you, beggars and drifters would be placed at the lesser tables,
Wasn't the "wrong end" of the table called "Below the salt"?
> while ranking guests would be given seats of high status. And status of
> seating was very important to the ancients. King Arthur's Round Table was
> round to indicate that some of his knights were not more important than
What a splendid thought! I wonder if King Arthur came up with the idea
himself.
(snip)
> I don't know what would have happened if a man tried to scrounge off the
> king for a long time. I have heard of the Beduin rules of hospitality: a
> good hosts feeds and shelters his guest for three days; a good guest does
> not stay longer than three days.
It is said to say in the Edda, that after three days a fish and a
guest start to stink.
> I have read that in Ireland this duty to be hospitable was so strong that
> if a man wanted to really humiliate a king, he would sit himself at the
> king's doorstep and starve himself to death.
Could the king not drag him inside?
> Do a married couple go to a restaurant, or does a married couple go to a
> restaurant?
That's both possible, isn't it?
> The light and the ring tell it; the light + ring combination tells it.
Thank you for explaining. I am not convinced, but maybe I should not
bother to go too deeply into the grammar of a language which is not my
mother tongue.
>
> > How about Goldberry:-)
>
> Her too. But she's married
Can you prove that? Because I don't think she is.
(snip explicit language)
Henriette
Henriette
> On 2 Mar 2004 02:57:58 -0800, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
>
> >> > (snip)"the light in your eyes and the ring in your
> >> > voice tells it". (Should that not be: tell it?)
> >>
> it". Sort of one long Entish-type word, for one quality, even though
> it takes eleven words of English to approximate the meaning.
>
in English and also in Dutch I would take the plural form, but I am
happy to know that to you and Raven it sounds OK.
Henriette
Henriette
> Since, as I recall, the Ents were put in Middle Earth at the request of
> Yavana to protect the trees, I can only assume that Old Man Willow is either
> an ent, or possibly a malevolent spirit.
>
Or either trees in general, or at least some trees, did have a form of
consciousness.
> > [13b] Surprising, that a tree-lover like JRRT speaks about trees
> > filled with malice and OMW even has a "rotten heart".
>
> I attribute at least some of the malice to the trees of the Old Forest
> hating those who go on two legs.
Definitely, but "rotten heart" says IMO that some malice also existed
apart from that.
Henriette
AC
> AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:<slrnc49nm8.1co....@alder.alberni.net>...
>
>> Since, as I recall, the Ents were put in Middle Earth at the request of
>> Yavana to protect the trees, I can only assume that Old Man Willow is either
>> an ent, or possibly a malevolent spirit.
>>
> Or either trees in general, or at least some trees, did have a form of
> consciousness.
I'm still a little hesitant on that one. Old Man Willow seemed to have a
good deal more than a form of consciousness. He could speak (was it Merry
or Pippin who was trapped beneath a root and told the others not to harm Old
Man Willow or he would cut them in two).
>
>> > [13b] Surprising, that a tree-lover like JRRT speaks about trees
>> > filled with malice and OMW even has a "rotten heart".
>>
>> I attribute at least some of the malice to the trees of the Old Forest
>> hating those who go on two legs.
>
> Definitely, but "rotten heart" says IMO that some malice also existed
> apart from that.
Possibly. The Old Forest was a remnant of the primordial forest. I rather
wonder whether, like the Balrog, we're not meeting some representative of an
elder evil here.
Henriette
> If I may be permitted to ramble on for a bit, it seems to me that Tom and
> Goldberry have this aura of power and 'exaltedness' about them because
> they embody the "third theme" in its purest sense. The third theme was
> triumphant because it took the worst of Melkor corruptions of Arda and
> actually wove them into the overall beauty of the world. To me, this
> signifies not just fighting evil, but actually rising beyond it, i.e.
> getting to a stage where evil has no power over you, because the
> instruments which it uses to gain power (greed, the promise of wealth and
> power, etc.) no longer matter to you.
(snip)
> Tom and Goldberry are as close as we can get to
> "unfallen" Man, to what Eru originally intended us to be.
>
> This has obvious parallels with our world. Particularly in these times,
> I think there are some fairly important lessons we can learn from Tom and
> Goldberry.
Meneldil, this is a very beautiful and inspired post you have written
here, thank you. It is exactly how I feel on the subject and how I
think, JRRT has meant it.
Now the challenge we face is to actually implement these facts, as
clearly as we may see them, into our daily life. Which is not so easy.
Henriette
Jette Goldie
news:<hD61c.6761$3B....@news.get2net.dk>...
>
> > I have read that in Ireland this duty to be hospitable was so strong
that
> > if a man wanted to really humiliate a king, he would sit himself at the
> > king's doorstep and starve himself to death.
>
> Could the king not drag him inside?
But he couldn't *force* him to eat.
Henriette
> I have a couple of vague notions about TB and
> Goldberry, one being that they might represent a purely contemplative
> approach to life (which is why they don't take an active role in
> fighting Sauron), and another, if possible even vaguer, being that
> they exemplify an outlook of life from before the sundering of science
> and imagination, when song and the artistic response to nature was one
> with the understanding of nature.
Of the latter type of human being, I would say Parcifal is an example,
and The Fool from the Tarot cards: pure, innocent and with an
intuitive wisdom. But Tom and Goldberry are way past that phase. Past
the phase of science as well. Enlightened, I would say, and at first
sight an enlightened being and a fool may look similar (especially if
one is of a totally different species (Balrog)like yourself).
The Ring has no influence over Tom, which makes him unique and
outstanding. He even makes *the Ring* invisible. There is no one else
who can even remotely compete with that in LOTR.
Henriette
Celaeno
>Celaeno <cel...@choklit.nospam.org> wrote in message news:<mnd940huqah1m5h2p...@4ax.com>...
>> Yes. Milk is really a faintly yellowish white, for that matter.
>
>I would never argue with someone with the same somewhat suspect
>bloodtype as I have,
That's a lot of people to never argue with.
>still I would like to subtly point out that the
>milk from your barbarian cows may be faintly yellowish white. When it
>comes from my packs it is always astonishingly white.
We're talking faintly where you have to compare it to a real pure
white thing to tell it isn't. And the effect is boviously stronger
with whole milk. Heck, skim milk looks bluish.
Een Wilde Ier
> "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message news:<hD61c.6761$3B....@news.get2net.dk>...
>
>>"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>news:be50318e.04030...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
>> I have read that in Ireland this duty to be hospitable was so strong that
>>if a man wanted to really humiliate a king, he would sit himself at the
>>king's doorstep and starve himself to death.
>
>
> Could the king not drag him inside?
But the man could still refuse the hospitality, shaming the king.
p.s. anyone signing up for more Chapters - please send your emails to
maoltuile, at utvinternet.ie.
My DSL service hasn't been playing nice with Hotmail for a couple of
weeks now (among other ISP-related glitches)
Een Wilde Ier
> Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message news:<ts5940hjrachbdrjp...@4ax.com>...
>
> (snip)
>
>>>>Why do I think this tendency to sing is still the case in Ireland?
>>>>
>>>
>>>LOL, because you have not seen Wilde Ier for some time and think he
>>>may be busy singing somewhere?
>>
>>Could be. :-) A tenor, perhaps?
>
>
> In NL the saying goes: "throw a pebble in a group of men and you will
> hit a baritone", because that will be the case from a statistical
> point of view. If Wilde Ier is a tenor, he should quickly develop his
> voice (if necessary) and go into the singing business, because true
> tenors are really needed, at least here.
I'm no tenor, unfortunately! ;-)
Belba Grubb from Stock
Guernseys!
I spent part of my youth in the dairy country of upstate NY and
someone told me there that a certain breed of cow has milk that's
yellower than other breeds. I thought it was Jerseys, but a quick
google brought up this:
"Guernseys are medium to big cows. They could be brown/white or
red/white. High fat and protein content along with a high
concentration of beta carotenes gives the Guernsey's milk a "golden"
color."
--- http://www.gallikers.com/dairyfacts/list.asp
The cream would be golden to yellow, too. Hmmm...Bombadil Guernseys?
Barb
Belba Grubb from Stock
>I'm pretty sure that what you have in mind is Guy Davenport's article
>"Hobbitry," originally published in the *New York Times* and reprinted
>in Davenport's collection *The Geography of the Imagination*.
>
>RPN
Thank you! I will look into it. I had briefly come across mention of
the possible connection on the Net a few years ago, thought "ooh,
that's interesting" and intended to return to it, but never did and,
alas, never bookmarked the page.
Barb
Belba Grubb from Stock
>Yes. "The Grubb" will soon be as well:-)
Sigh. :-)
>So you also think Goldberry needed a break every now and then:-)
It was probably inspired by that wonderful quote from the parodist
that you included: "It was obvious from her tired look that this lady
had listened to more silly songs than was bearable." Thanks for the
link -- I look forward to exploring that for a change of pace.
Also,
>With all his parody, Aris drew my attention to what I hadn't noticed
>previously: that Goldberry is absent during most of the
>conversation between Tom and the hobbits. In the end though, she "sang
>many songs with them".
Back in the first half of the 20th Century, when there were visitors
the women and the men did tend to separate into groups and socialize
separately, sometimes even in separate rooms; if the visitors were all
male (or female), the distaff member of the hosting couple would
tactfully disappear. However, I don't think JRRT is really describing
this -- Goldberry seems to have her own life, her own things to do,
and oddly enough, her brief appearances and absences combine make her
quite a strong character. I don't know why. Something about how her
voice is heard above them in the morning of that rainy day. In this
respect (and only this one), she reminds me of that Egyptian goddess
whose body forms the sky -- everpresent even when she's not active in
the story.
Speaking of absences in this chapter, it's interesting that Pippin,
Merry and Sam aren't given a line of dialogue throughout (Merry has a
nonverbal reaction to Frodo's disappearance when he has the Ring on,
but that's it). They really fade into the background, except for the
section about their dreams (or lack thereof, in Sam's case) and
Pippin's view out the west window on their first morning there; these
two sections are the only place their characters are developed. It's
effective, as one can get a good impression of a character by learning
what they are afraid of (Pippin, of being laughed at; Merry, of
drowning; Sam, unbothered by anything so far). And I never noticed
until just now that JRRT did give Pippin a view, perhaps to stress his
character, which will certainly develop later on.
Barb
stealth...@-remove-yahoo.com
Elder evil?
"Mein Gott, Her professor, here we have an example of the topiary of
Cthulhu!"
--
Sindamor Pandaturion
[remove -remove- to reply]
Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
> [12] Kitchen-garden: what is that? In any case, Tom and/or Goldberry
> (I put my money on Tom) work the garden, as they grow beans, have a
> flower-garden, a clipped hedge and shaven grass (and berries).
>
A kitchen-garden is like an allotment; not a flower garden, but a very
utilitarian collection of rows of herbs, vegetables and fruit-bushes in
muddy earth, typically with a falling-down shed in the corner :-)
That reference made me smile, actually, in what I am sure is a
deliberate effect on Tolkien's part. The point is that it's an
incongruously unromantic image - as if you had woken from a dream of
devils scrabbling at your window only to look out and see the
dustbins...
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
* He who loses his temper has lost the argument *
Kristian Damm Jensen
> You will not evade me, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette):
>
>> Celaeno <cel...@choklit.nospam.org> wrote in message
>> news:<mnd940huqah1m5h2p...@4ax.com>...
>
>>> Yes. Milk is really a faintly yellowish white, for that matter.
>>
>> I would never argue with someone with the same somewhat suspect
>> bloodtype as I have,
>
> That's a lot of people to never argue with.
>
>> still I would like to subtly point out that the
>> milk from your barbarian cows may be faintly yellowish white. When it
>> comes from my packs it is always astonishingly white.
>
> We're talking faintly where you have to compare it to a real pure
> white thing to tell it isn't. And the effect is boviously stronger
> with whole milk. Heck, skim milk looks bluish.
Was that a typo, or did you mo it intentionally?
--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
While the rest of the human race are descended from monkeys, redheads
derive from cats. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Henriette
>
> I'm no tenor, unfortunately! ;-)
You only need lots of practice on your high notes:-)
Henriette
Henriette
>
> It was probably inspired by that wonderful quote from the parodist
> that you included: "It was obvious from her tired look that this lady
> had listened to more silly songs than was bearable." Thanks for the
> link -- I look forward to exploring that for a change of pace.
Glad you also like the parody! It is one of the funniest chapters of
the E-text, especially because in AFT Aris usually writes quite
serious posts. Do not miss this one by Raven either. It is funny and
moving:
http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/book/book5_10.htm
Several other chapters are also very much worth a read.
> Back in the first half of the 20th Century, when there were visitors
> the women and the men did tend to separate into groups and socialize
> separately, sometimes even in separate rooms; if the visitors were all
> male (or female), the distaff member of the hosting couple would
> tactfully disappear.
Apparently also in the second half. Some 15 years ago I attended a
rather posh party in England at some elderly people´s, when after
dinner the ladies were supposed to leave the room and have tea
somewhere in an adjoining room, while the men had *port* in the dinner
room! I was and still am astonished.
> However, I don't think JRRT is really describing
> this -- Goldberry seems to have her own life, her own things to do,
> and oddly enough, her brief appearances and absences combine make her
> quite a strong character.
Seconded.
> Speaking of absences in this chapter, it's interesting that Pippin,
> Merry and Sam aren't given a line of dialogue throughout (Merry has a
> nonverbal reaction to Frodo's disappearance when he has the Ring on,
> but that's it). They really fade into the background, except for the
> section about their dreams (or lack thereof, in Sam's case) and
> Pippin's view out the west window on their first morning there; these
> two sections are the only place their characters are developed. It's
> effective, as one can get a good impression of a character by learning
> what they are afraid of (Pippin, of being laughed at; Merry, of
> drowning; Sam, unbothered by anything so far). And I never noticed
> until just now that JRRT did give Pippin a view, perhaps to stress his
> character, which will certainly develop later on.
>
Thank you for "sharing". I hadn´t noticed this. Amazing how much one
can discover in one chapter!
Henriette
Henriette
> >bloodtype as I have,
>
> That's a lot of people to never argue with.
>
argue with you and Jette....
> We're talking faintly where you have to compare it to a real pure
> white thing to tell it isn't.
Is. (this is not arguing. It is stating a fact:-)
> And the effect is boviously stronger
> with whole milk. Heck, skim milk looks bluish.
>
Agreed.
Henriette
TT Arvind
> Celaeno wrote:
> > We're talking faintly where you have to compare it to a real pure
> > white thing to tell it isn't. And the effect is boviously stronger
> ^^^^^^^
> > with whole milk. Heck, skim milk looks bluish.
>
> Was that a typo, or did you mo it intentionally?
Is there some sort of punning going on here? I'm afraid I don't quite
udderstand.
--
Meneldil
Take care of the luxuries and the necessities will take care of
themselves.
- Dorothy Parker
Henriette
> "Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:be50318e.04030...@posting.google.com...
> > "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message
> news:<hD61c.6761$3B....@news.get2net.dk>...
>
> > > I have read that in Ireland this duty to be hospitable was so strong
> that
> > > if a man wanted to really humiliate a king, he would sit himself at the
> > > king's doorstep and starve himself to death.
> >
> > Could the king not drag him inside?
>
> But he couldn't *force* him to eat.
Somehow I can´t quite grasp this. If they can drag him inside, they
can also put him in a guest chamber, disproving that he is not granted
hospitality, or put a sign next to him: this man refuses the King´s
hospitality.
Henriette
Henriette
> On 3 Mar 2004 13:13:14 -0800,
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:<slrnc49nm8.1co....@alder.alberni.net>...
> >
> >> Since, as I recall, the Ents were put in Middle Earth at the request of
> >> Yavana to protect the trees, I can only assume that Old Man Willow is either
> >> an ent, or possibly a malevolent spirit.
> >>
> > Or either trees in general, or at least some trees, did have a form of
> > consciousness.
>
> I'm still a little hesitant on that one. Old Man Willow seemed to have a
> good deal more than a form of consciousness. He could speak (was it Merry
> or Pippin who was trapped beneath a root and told the others not to harm Old
> Man Willow or he would cut them in two).
*And* he was a mighty singer. So you are right, more than a "form" of
consciousness...
>
> >
> >> > [13b] Surprising, that a tree-lover like JRRT speaks about trees
> >> > filled with malice and OMW even has a "rotten heart".
> >>
> >> I attribute at least some of the malice to the trees of the Old Forest
> >> hating those who go on two legs.
> >
> > Definitely, but "rotten heart" says IMO that some malice also existed
> > apart from that.
>
> Possibly. The Old Forest was a remnant of the primordial forest. I rather
> wonder whether, like the Balrog, we're not meeting some representative of an
> elder evil here.
Could be possible. Enigma´s abound in this chapter, that´s probably
part of why I feel comfortable with it.
Henriette
Kristian Damm Jensen
> Wes šu Kristian Damm Jensen hal!
>> Celaeno wrote:
>>> We're talking faintly where you have to compare it to a real pure
>>> white thing to tell it isn't. And the effect is boviously stronger
>> ^^^^^^^
>>> with whole milk. Heck, skim milk looks bluish.
>>
>> Was that a typo, or did you mo it intentionally?
>
> Is there some sort of punning going on here? I'm afraid I don't quite
> udderstand.
From http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=bovine
Main Entry: 1bo·vine
Pronunciation: 'bO-"vIn, -"vEn
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin bovinus, from Latin bov-, bos ox, cow -- more at COW
1 : of, relating to, or resembling bovines and especially the ox or cow
2 : having qualities (as placidity or dullness) characteristic of oxen or
cows
- bo·vine·ly adverb
- bo·vin·i·ty /bO-'vi-n&-tE/ noun
I tried to make the reference a little more obvious my adding my own typo.
GROAN. And after writing all that, I re-read what you wrote, then checked
"udder". GROAN again.
--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
No man is an island. So is Man.
Belba Grubb from Stock
>Thank you for "sharing". I hadn´t noticed this. Amazing how much one
>can discover in one chapter!
That's one good reason why these discussion series are such a good
idea.
Barb
Celaeno
>Celaeno wrote:
>> We're talking faintly where you have to compare it to a real pure
>> white thing to tell it isn't. And the effect is boviously stronger
> ^^^^^^^
>> with whole milk. Heck, skim milk looks bluish.
>
>Was that a typo, or did you mo it intentionally?
Intentional use of http://www.home.no/choklit/tion/ary.html#b
Celaeno
>> > "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message
>> news:<hD61c.6761$3B....@news.get2net.dk>...
>>
>> > > I have read that in Ireland this duty to be hospitable was so strong
>> that
>> > > if a man wanted to really humiliate a king, he would sit himself at the
>> > > king's doorstep and starve himself to death.
>Somehow I can´t quite grasp this. If they can drag him inside, they
>can also put him in a guest chamber, disproving that he is not granted
>hospitality, or put a sign next to him: this man refuses the King´s
>hospitality.
But wouldn't it be offensive whether the interpretation was "Look, the
king won't feed him" or "Look, someone hates the king THAT much"?
Henriette
> On 1 Mar 2004 Henriette wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > [12] Kitchen-garden: what is that? In any case, Tom and/or Goldberry
> > (I put my money on Tom) work the garden, as they grow beans, have a
> > flower-garden, a clipped hedge and shaven grass (and berries).
> >
> A kitchen-garden is like an allotment; not a flower garden, but a very
> utilitarian collection of rows of herbs, vegetables and fruit-bushes in
> muddy earth, typically with a falling-down shed in the corner :-)
Sounds great, fresh herbs and vegetables! Thank you.
>
> That reference made me smile, actually, in what I am sure is a
> deliberate effect on Tolkien's part. The point is that it's an
> incongruously unromantic image - as if you had woken from a dream of
> devils scrabbling at your window only to look out and see the
> dustbins...
Very well possible, as we know the professor had a great sense of humour!
Henriette
Henriette
> Wes ğu Kristian Damm Jensen hal!
> > Celaeno wrote:
> > > We're talking faintly where you have to compare it to a real pure
> > > white thing to tell it isn't. And the effect is boviously stronger
> ^^^^^^^
> > > with whole milk. Heck, skim milk looks bluish.
> >
> > Was that a typo, or did you mo it intentionally?
>
> Is there some sort of punning going on here? I'm afraid I don't quite
> udderstand.
And "udderstand", is that a typo, or a pun?
Henriette
The Sidhekin
> The question about the Willow-Man he leaves unanswered for the
> moment at the explicit wish of Merry and Pippin.
One might comment that Frodo, whom OMW tried to drown, asked the
question, and the princelings, whom OMW trapped, objected to it, while
Sam, who resisted OMW, does not seem to care one way or the other.
Indeed Sam is somewhat invisible in this chapter; I guess that is
because it was relatively complete before Tolkien even invented Sam
Gamgee the Hobbit gardener. CJRT comments that an early version of
this was "scarcely distinguishable from that of FR" in the first part,
and from what I can tell, not very different in what follows either.
(Except for the part about OMW; see below.)
> In the morning they are woken by a whistling, singing and clapping
> Tom [11], who says he has already walked wide and wakened Goldberry.
Objection -- it is not clear that Tom wakes them. He does not sing
until he sees them stir, which they all do at once. This may have had
something to do with the fact that Tom was in their room whistling,
but since his singing did not wake them earlier, my guess is that the
morning sunshine did the job.
> [11] Why does Tom wake the hobbits (and Goldberry) so mercilessly,
> just because he appears to need very little sleep himself? When a
> few hours later he says: "Let them rest while they are able".....
Mercilessly? As for the Hobbits, my objection above stands. As for
Goldberry -- do you really think she could imagine any better way to
wake up than hearing singing under her window? Sheesh, they don't call
the LotR a romance for nothing. :-)
> "In the night little folk wake up in the darkness, and sleep after
> light has come", he says mysteriously,
Perhaps Tom has good ears after all, when he is not busy singing?
Ah yes -- another mystery of TB. :-)
> [5b]Why has "Who is Tom Bombadil" become a standard question, and not
> "Who is Goldberry?". The River-Daughter? Found by Tom? How clear is
> that?
It is clear enough to make Goldberry a native of Middle-Earth.
Unlike Tom, she just _cannot_ be an Ainu, though her mother, the
River-woman may be. For my part, I am surprised there is so little
speculation about the nature of the River-woman. I have on occasion
imagined Goldberry as a daughter of Uinen -- or perhaps more likely,
one of her following, a Maia associated with that particular river,
the Withywindle.
However, there is nothing to say that the River-woman _has_ to be an
Ainu. There were spirits coming from Eru other than the Ainur. We
know of the Children of Eru, the Ents, and the Eagles. There is no
reason to think those were the only ones. That might make Tom a
nature spirit and Goldberry the daughter of one.
And in an early version, Maggot was a relation of Tom's ... so
perhaps the nature spirit version fits better than the Ainu one :-)
(However, for the longest time, I had the strangest idea -- that
Goldberry might be the daughter of Turin and Nienor. Nienor jumped
into the river, remember? Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, that
would have put her on the other side of the Blue Mountains, nowhere
near the Withywindle, so I gave up that thought ...)
(And just who _was_ Goldberry's _father_, anyway? Not OMW, surely?
Though that would explain why he did not dare hinder TB's errand ...)
> [12] Kitchen-garden: what is that? In any case, Tom and/or Goldberry
> (I put my money on Tom) work the garden, as they grow beans, have a
> flower-garden, a clipped hedge and shaven grass (and berries).
"Kjøkkenhage" is common in Norwegian, so I never had any trouble
with this -- but you made me check the dictionary to be sure:
"kitchen garden: garden or part of a garden where fruit and
vegetables are grown"
Beans and berries -- fruit and vegetables -- the flowers and the
grass belong to another part of the garden :-)
> [13a] Old Man Willow seems to be the Dark Lord on a small
> scale. Frodo now "learns enough to content him". So do I, but AC and
> other posters apparently don't. Maybe now is the time to exchange
> ideas. I don't think OMW has anything to do with Ents/Huorns, but
> what *do* we know: a descendant of the fathers of the fathers of
> trees, dangerous and powerful, a strongwilled and mighty singer.
Actually, the text does not say he is a _descendant_ thereof. Tom
says the fathers of the fathers of trees lived there yet, and though
he does not say so explicitly, I never imagined OMW to be less.
> [13b] Surprising, that a tree-lover like JRRT speaks about trees
> filled with malice and OMW even has a "rotten heart".
The first version has OMW a "grey thirsty earth-bound spirit" which
was somehow "imprisoned in the greatest Willow of the Forest". I am
not entirely convinced that the change in wording in this case implies
a change of conception. OMW had existed in Tolkien's notes long
before he wrote the Old Forest chapter, and TB's explanation was
predicted. Yet he seems to have quickly changed his mind as to the
level of details in that explanation -- and did not include any
contradicting details.
Also notably even that first version says that the tree's "heart
went rotten", and even the FR version speaks of "his grey thirsty
spirit". So, OMW was originally, and just may still be thought of as,
the greatest Willow in the Forest, possessed by a malicious spirit.
The final version was written before Ents were conceived of, so I
doubt they have anything to do with each other. More likely both
arise from JRRT's thought that the trees really had _cause_ to bear
ill will towards all "gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning"
creatures -- though they are slow to anger, and those whose hearts are
not rotten are perhaps more likely to show mercy after all. It may be
that OMW was "just" a tree after all, though "oldest and fatherless"
in his way -- an original work of Yavanna.
Or perhaps OMW was possessed. Your choice.
> Please feel free to add your own points, and do share your insights
> and maybe wild speculations!
*trinklet*
"Frodo looked at it closely, and rather suspiciously (like one who
has lent a trinklet to a juggler)."
"trinklet"? I have no idea how many times I have read that text,
misreading "trinket". Obviously the meaning of "trinket" was intended
(right?). Why "trinklet"?
The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary does not list "trinklet".
Is this a typo?
Is this an archaic form of the word "trinket"?
Is there some connotation to "trinklet" missing to "trinket" (and
missed by me for decades)?
Or is there some other reason for Tolkien to choose such a strange
word over a common one?
-SK-
--
perl -e 'print "Just another Perl ${\(trickster and hacker)},";'
The Sidhekin *proves* Sidhe did it!
TT Arvind
> The final version was written before Ents were conceived of, so I
> doubt they have anything to do with each other.
Are you sure? Wasn't the reference to the "tree-men" present in Chapter
2 already present when the final version of Chapter 7 was written?
> *trinklet*
> Is this an archaic form of the word "trinket"?
It is, and it was always rather rare in written English.
> Is there some connotation to "trinklet" missing to "trinket" (and
> missed by me for decades)?
"Trinklet" was derived from "trinket" by adding the dimunitive "-let" and
contracting the result (I suppose the Dutch would say "trinkje"). So it
has a more folksy, rustic feel to it which is probably why JRRT used it
here.
There is also a slight difference in meaning - "trinket" originally could
also mean the paraphernelia generally associated with something ("the
trinkets of fishing"). "Trinklet" never had this sense.
--
Meneldil
Don't judge a book by its movie.
Raven
news:be50318e.04030...@posting.google.com...
> "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message
news:<hD61c.6761$3B....@news.get2net.dk>...
> > I have read that in Ireland this duty to be hospitable was so strong
> > that if a man wanted to really humiliate a king, he would sit himself
> > at the king's doorstep and starve himself to death.
> Could the king not drag him inside?
The pagan kings of old in Northern Europe were not absolute rulers.
There were limits. In Ireland also, a king had to be unblemished in body.
I don't know about battle scars, but if he had his hand cut off in battle,
he could no longer be king. He had to obey the Law, keep his people happy
and the gods likewise. A king with a bad personality would bring pestilence
and famine to the land - kingship, in old IndoEuropean thinking, was part of
the religion just as religion was an integral part of the life.
> > Do a married couple go to a restaurant, or does a married couple go
> > to a restaurant?
> That's both possible, isn't it?
"A married couple go to the restaurant" jars my ears. But like you, I
don't have English as my first language.
> > > How about Goldberry:-)
> > Her too. But she's married
> Can you prove that? Because I don't think she is.
She is, in my mind, certainly married to Tom Bombadil.
> (snip explicit language)
What explicit language? "...and I have standards"?
Raafje.
Jim Deutch
wrote:
"Topiary of Cthulhu" I love it! Consider it stolen.
Jim Deutch
--
Q. How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb?
A. To get to the other side.
Jim Deutch
<ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>I spent part of my youth in the dairy country of upstate NY and
>someone told me there that a certain breed of cow has milk that's
>yellower than other breeds. I thought it was Jerseys, but a quick
>google brought up this:
>
>"Guernseys
o/` "Byrne dairy milk is mighty fine,
you just can't beat the hometown line" o/`
http://www.byrnedairy.com/history.cfm
Hover over "1952" then click the link to listen to the jingle!
Jim Deutch
--
"The memory goes second; I forget what's first."
Jim Deutch
>Celaeno <cel...@choklit.nospam.org> wrote in message news:<mnd940huqah1m5h2p...@4ax.com>...
>> You will not evade me, Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net>:
>>
>> >But the cream, now, would require cattle (the yellow
>> >color, I think, comes from extremely high fat content and/or from
>> >certain breeds of cattle),
>>
>> Yes. Milk is really a faintly yellowish white, for that matter.
>
>I would never argue with someone with the same somewhat suspect
>bloodtype as I have, still I would like to subtly point out that the
>milk from your barbarian cows may be faintly yellowish white. When it
>comes from my packs it is always astonishingly white.
I believe it depends both on the breed of cow and, perhaps even more,
on the cow's diet. I recall from my barbarian childhood the local
milk varying considerably over the year, being considerably fattier
and slightly yellowish in the spring. I'd suspect a lot of beta
carotene would be the source of the color.
I'll bet the milk in your packs is carefully mixed, filtered, skimmed,
pasteurized, bleached, distilled, polished, irradiated, freeze-dried,
reconstituted and stared at for fifteen seconds by a basilisk before
it gets to your fridge.
Jim Deutch
PS I just read the other post: Gurnseys! They were Gurnseys!
--
"The unexamined code is not worth shipping." - Brian Caufield
AC
Isn't a capital offense to mention HP Lovecraft in a Tolkien group?
--
Aaron Clausen
tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
the softrat
That's what I said!
"Capital Joke! Simply Capital!"
the softrat
"LotR: Eleven Oscars! Right up there with _Titanic_!"
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
So tell me, are those cookies made with real Girl Scouts?
the softrat
Deutch) wrote:
>
>I'll bet the milk in your packs is carefully mixed, filtered, skimmed,
>pasteurized, bleached, distilled, polished, irradiated, freeze-dried,
>reconstituted and stared at for fifteen seconds by a basilisk before
>it gets to your fridge.
>
Kristian Damm Jensen
> On 3 Mar 2004 12:38:24 -0800, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
>> I would never argue with someone with the same somewhat suspect
>> bloodtype as I have, still I would like to subtly point out that the
>> milk from your barbarian cows may be faintly yellowish white. When it
>> comes from my packs it is always astonishingly white.
>
> I believe it depends both on the breed of cow and, perhaps even more,
> on the cow's diet. I recall from my barbarian childhood the local
> milk varying considerably over the year, being considerably fattier
> and slightly yellowish in the spring. I'd suspect a lot of beta
> carotene would be the source of the color.
You still get these seasonal changes if you go for ecologically produced
butter.
--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
If you have a procedure with 10 parameters, you probably missed some.
-- Kraulis
Henriette
>
(snip)
> I recall from my barbarian childhood (snip yellow milk)
not *another* barbarian!
>
> I'll bet the milk in your packs is carefully mixed, filtered, skimmed,
> pasteurized, bleached, distilled, polished, irradiated, freeze-dried,
> reconstituted and stared at for fifteen seconds by a basilisk before
> it gets to your fridge.
>
LOL. One has to be very creative in the city to get *anything* that isn´t.
Henriette
Henriette
> >can also put him in a guest chamber, disproving that he is not granted
> >hospitality, or put a sign next to him: this man refuses the King´s
> >hospitality.
>
> But wouldn't it be offensive whether the interpretation was "Look, the
> king won't feed him" or "Look, someone hates the king THAT much"?
>
himself to death at the king´s front porch, it is impressive though
somewhat barbarian. But if he pretends the king refuses him
hospitality which is not true, he is a fraud or misguided.
Henriette
Henriette
>
> The pagan kings of old in Northern Europe were not absolute rulers.
> There were limits. In Ireland also, a king had to be unblemished in body.
> I don't know about battle scars, but if he had his hand cut off in battle,
> he could no longer be king. He had to obey the Law, keep his people happy
At least that was *something*. Nowadays Kings, Queens, Princes/esses
can have dealings with criminals, be bribed, and have children with
their mistresses all over the world, supported by my tax money. And
ordinary people like you have to keep up standards.
> "A married couple go to the restaurant" jars my ears. But like you, I
> don't have English as my first language.
A married couple *went* to the restaurant is right in any case. But
the couple could not be Tom and Goldberry, because they were not
married. Just in your mind they are.
Henriette
The Sidhekin
> Wes ðu The Sidhekin hal!
And hello to the you too :-)
> > The final version was written before Ents were conceived of, so I
> > doubt they have anything to do with each other.
>
> Are you sure? Wasn't the reference to the "tree-men" present in Chapter
> 2 already present when the final version of Chapter 7 was written?
I guess that depends on what you consider to be _final_ ...
Tom's account of OMW was in its final form in an early version of
the so far untitled "Chapter V" (not yet 7), taking its place in the
House of Tom Bombadil. Likewise, their encounter with OMW was in its
final form, except that Sam was not yet one of the four Hobbits, so
their roles were a little differently distributed ... proto-Merry (aka
Marmaduke) had Sam's part, proto-Pippin (aka Frodo(sic!)) had Frodo's,
while proto-Frodo (aka Bingo) and Odo Took (not quite proto-Fatty)
were the ones trapped by OMW. Confused yet? If not, you may want to
give HoME 6 another try :-)
Sam Gamgee was in fact not yet in existence, nor his cousin Hal's
"Tree-men". Both came with the "Second Phase" of development. CJRT
speculates that this may have been "the first premonition of the
Ents", though he goes on to note that Tree-men already had appeared in
connection with the voyages of Earendel. Still, "premonition" does
suggest that the Ents were not yet conceived of -- even when the
Tree-men appeared.
Long after this point in development, Gandalf still claims to have
been held captured by the Giant Treebeard in Fangorn forest -- so this
Giant was proto-Saruman _and_ proto-Ent, if you follow me. :-)
In researching and writing this, I have quite convinced myself that
the Ents were indeed not yet thought of when OMW's part was finalized.
Still, I wish I could locate my misplaced copy of HoME 7, where the
Ents at last do appear. Perhaps when I open the last of the boxes
from my 2002 move ... I don't think I had that book long before that,
so I doubt it could be in any of the 1999 boxes ...
> > Is there some connotation to "trinklet" missing to "trinket" (and
> > missed by me for decades)?
>
> "Trinklet" was derived from "trinket" by adding the dimunitive "-let" and
> contracting the result (I suppose the Dutch would say "trinkje"). So it
> has a more folksy, rustic feel to it which is probably why JRRT used it
> here.
Okay.
> There is also a slight difference in meaning - "trinket" originally could
> also mean the paraphernelia generally associated with something ("the
> trinkets of fishing"). "Trinklet" never had this sense.
Ah -- it sounds as if "trinket" overran its own derivation
"trinklet" by taking on its meaning (in addition to its original
meaning, paraphernalia), leaving "trinklet" no outlet but in speech.
So, even though "trinket" is the elder, "trinklet" is the original
_in this sense_ of the word. (Right?) Yes, I can see Tolkien
preferring that.
Thanks!
Henriette
> held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) writes:
>
> > The question about the Willow-Man he leaves unanswered for the
> > moment at the explicit wish of Merry and Pippin.
>
> One might comment that Frodo, whom OMW tried to drown, asked the
> question, and the princelings, whom OMW trapped, objected to it, while
> Sam, who resisted OMW, does not seem to care one way or the other.
LOL, yes, one might indeed!
>
> > In the morning they are woken by a whistling, singing and clapping
> > Tom [11], who says he has already walked wide and wakened Goldberry.
>
> Objection -- it is not clear that Tom wakes them.
You are correct that we can't prove it, although IMO it is strongly
suggested.
> He does not sing until he sees them stir,
Objection -- he does not *clap his hands* until he sees them stir.
> which they all do at once. This may have had
> something to do with the fact that Tom was in their room whistling,
> but since his singing did not wake them earlier, my guess is that the
> morning sunshine did the job.
>
If you are no lawyer, you should become one. You have great talent!
> > [11] Why does Tom wake the hobbits (and Goldberry) so mercilessly,
> > just because he appears to need very little sleep himself? When a
> > few hours later he says: "Let them rest while they are able".....
>
> Mercilessly? As for the Hobbits, my objection above stands. As for
> Goldberry -- do you really think she could imagine any better way to
> wake up than hearing singing under her window?
If he also lets her sleep in at times, I agree.
> > "In the night little folk wake up in the darkness, and sleep after
> > light has come", he says mysteriously,
>
> Perhaps Tom has good ears after all, when he is not busy singing?
What is he supposed to have heard? The hobbits (except our log Sam)
all had nightmares, but it doesn't say anywhere they made any noise.
>
> > [5b]Why has "Who is Tom Bombadil" become a standard question, and not
> > "Who is Goldberry?". The River-Daughter? Found by Tom? How clear is
> > that?
>
> It is clear enough to make Goldberry a native of Middle-Earth.
(snip wild speculations on the origins and nature of Goldberry)
> (And just who _was_ Goldberry's _father_, anyway? Not OMW, surely?
> Though that would explain why he did not dare hinder TB's errand ...)
Good to see that someone also wonders about Goldberry.
>
>
> > [12] Kitchen-garden: what is that? In any case, Tom and/or Goldberry
> > (I put my money on Tom) work the garden, as they grow beans, have a
> > flower-garden, a clipped hedge and shaven grass (and berries).
>
> "Kjøkkenhage" is common in Norwegian,
Oh no! Another Scandinavian in disguise!;-)
> so I never had any trouble
> with this -- but you made me check the dictionary to be sure:
>
> "kitchen garden: garden or part of a garden where fruit and
> vegetables are grown"
> Beans and berries -- fruit and vegetables -- the flowers
> and the grass belong to another part of the garden :-)
Thank you for looking it up! As for the flowers: some flowers and
leaves of flowers are edible, so they could be planted in the kitchen
garden.
>
> > [13a] Old Man Willow seems to be the Dark Lord on a small
> > scale. Frodo now "learns enough to content him". So do I, but AC and
> > other posters apparently don't. Maybe now is the time to exchange
> > ideas. I don't think OMW has anything to do with Ents/Huorns, but
> > what *do* we know: a descendant of the fathers of the fathers of
> > trees, dangerous and powerful, a strongwilled and mighty singer.
>
> Actually, the text does not say he is a _descendant_ thereof. Tom
> says the fathers of the fathers of trees lived there yet, and though
> he does not say so explicitly, I never imagined OMW to be less.
I looked it up and lo and behold: here I stand corrected. Thank you.
It is even nicer when OMW is one of the fathers of the fathers of
trees, maybe even The Father.
>
> > [13b] Surprising, that a tree-lover like JRRT speaks about trees
> > filled with malice and OMW even has a "rotten heart".
>
(snip interesting writing on OMW, which I think AC will be very happy
with).
> Or perhaps OMW was possessed. Your choice.
>
Yes, or some psychiatric disorder:-)
> *trinklet*
>
(snip discussion on trinket/trinklet)
I never noticed anything strange about the word trinklet, because I do
not know the word, nor the word trinket. I think, trinklet sounds
nicer and as for the origins, I saw comrade Meneldil had something to
say on the matter which yoy may enjoy.
Henriette
Henriette
> (snip)
> contracting the result (I suppose the Dutch would say "trinkje").
Such a good pupil you are! You'll very soon be ready for the study of
the exceptions to the diminutive rules in Dutch, like, to take a
random example, Meneldilletje:-)
Henriette
Shanahan
>TT Arvind <ttar...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> > Is there some connotation to "trinklet" missing to "trinket" (and
>> > missed by me for decades)?
>>
>> "Trinklet" was derived from "trinket" by adding the dimunitive "-let" and
>> contracting the result (I suppose the Dutch would say "trinkje"). So it
>> has a more folksy, rustic feel to it which is probably why JRRT used it
>> here.
>
> Okay.
>
>> There is also a slight difference in meaning - "trinket" originally could
>> also mean the paraphernelia generally associated with something ("the
>> trinkets of fishing"). "Trinklet" never had this sense.
>
> Ah -- it sounds as if "trinket" overran its own derivation
>"trinklet" by taking on its meaning (in addition to its original
>meaning, paraphernalia), leaving "trinklet" no outlet but in speech.
>So, even though "trinket" is the elder, "trinklet" is the original
>_in this sense_ of the word. (Right?) Yes, I can see Tolkien
>preferring that.
Er, is this a difference in editions perhaps? I have three editions of
the book, each printed in the '70s, and none of them have "trinklet", all
have "trinket." Sounds like a printing error to me, or someone's taking
the p*ss.
- Ciaran S.
-------------------------------------------------------
"I can do you blood and love without the rhetoric,
I can do you blood and rhetoric without the love,
and I can do you all three concurrent or consecutive;
but I can't do you love and rhetoric without the blood.
Blood is compulsory...they're all blood, you see."
-t.stoppard
Raven
news:be50318e.04030...@posting.google.com...
> IMO If he says: "I hate the king this much" and deliberately starves
> himself to death at the king´s front porch, it is impressive though
> somewhat barbarian. But if he pretends the king refuses him
> hospitality which is not true, he is a fraud or misguided.
It would not be fraud. In the old days culpability lay not necessarily
in the intent, but in the deed itself, and even more in the result of that
deed. If I, in our modern times, have the cruel misfortune to kill another
person by accident, such as if he leaps dead drunk straight into the path of
my car, then the police, once their investigation has concluded that I was
not speeding or otherwise driving carelessly, will do what they can to
comfort me. In the old days, if I, purely by accident and through no
negligence or malice on my part, caused another man to die, I could yet be
punished.
A king had the obligation to feed and give shelter to all who came to
him. If he failed to do so his honour would be besmirched. Even if a
person deliberately starved himself to death. I don't know precisely what
people would think, though: whether the king's honour had been besmirched by
his failure to feed the man, or it had been besmirched through the man's
sacrifice.
Crú.
Raven
news:3hpf40dur6kinep43...@4ax.com...
> "LotR: Eleven Oscars! Right up there with _Titanic_!"
That would be "Right down there with _Titanic_!" considering the location
of that ship. Or do you live in the Mariana trench?
Voron.
Raven
news:be50318e.04030...@posting.google.com...
> "Raafje" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message
news:<EaN1c.4792$sM5....@news.get2net.dk>...
> > The pagan kings of old in Northern Europe were not absolute rulers.
> > There were limits. In Ireland also, a king had to be unblemished in
> > body. I don't know about battle scars, but if he had his hand cut
> > off in battle, he could no longer be king. He had to obey the Law,
> > keep his people happy and the gods likewise. (snip)
> At least that was *something*. Nowadays Kings, Queens, Princes/esses
> can have dealings with criminals, be bribed, and have children with
> their mistresses all over the world, supported by my tax money. And
> ordinary people like you have to keep up standards.
In the older days Kings, Queens, Princes and Princesses *were* the
criminals. And if you can name a king who ruled the Netherlands a
millennium ago, I can name a very probable ancestor of yours. And of mine,
since my family comes from the same continent as yours. As for the very old
days, before Christianity, society seems to have been appallingly
class-divided, with the lower classes scarcely better off than the slaves.
> A married couple *went* to the restaurant is right in any case. But
> the couple could not be Tom and Goldberry, because they were not
> married. Just in your mind they are.
Then what *was* their relationship? Shacking up, meaning they were
living together but were not *married* because they had not been properly
*wed* in some Las Vegas nuptiality mill or other? Platonic friends? They
certainly look married to *me*.
Hrafn.
Jette Goldie
"the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:3hpf40dur6kinep43...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 21:56:01 GMT, 10313...@compuserve.com (Jim
> Deutch) wrote:
> >
> >I'll bet the milk in your packs is carefully mixed, filtered, skimmed,
> >pasteurized, bleached, distilled, polished, irradiated, freeze-dried,
> >reconstituted and stared at for fifteen seconds by a basilisk before
> >it gets to your fridge.
> >
> So ??!!????
Haven't you ever had fresh milk, almost straight from the
cow? Tastes SO different.
When I was growing up, milk came in glass bottles and
the cream used to float to the top, forming a thick
yellow head which you could skim off.
Sometimes when we were camping on farmland the
farmer would sell us our milk straight from his dairy.
Unpasturised and still warm - rich and creamy and
it DID taste different.
These days it's "homogenised" so that the cream/fat
(however little it is) remains suspended in with the
rest of the milk - and I think it's years since I had
milk that wasn't at least "semi-skimmed" :-(
However there's now a fashion for things like "breakfast
milk" - a high fat milk, from Guernsey/Jersey cows - but
it's still pasturised and homogenised. Richer than the
normal stuff, delicious on cereal, makes a wonderful
mug of cocoa, but not quite what I drank growing up.
And to keep this on topic for the ng, the milk the Hobbits
drank would have been whole milk, unpasturised and not
homogenised, so the cream would float whenever the milkjug
stood for any length of time.
(wasn't that a Jersey cow we saw briefly in the Shire in
the movie FotR?)
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
TT Arvind
> I guess that depends on what you consider to be _final_ ...
My idea of the order in which these things were conceived is:
1. The idea of tree-men
2. Tom's account of OMW, with OMW perhaps intended to be a type of tree-
man, or related in some way to tree-men / tree-giants?
3. Conversation about the tree-man / giant seen by Hal.
4. Gandalf's imprisonment by evil Treebeard (who was a giant / tree-
giant?)
5. Evolution of tree-giants into the Good Ents
From what you've said, this doesn't seem to be contradicted by the
history of the drafts.
> Confused yet? If not, you may want to give HoME 6 another try :-)
I've not read the LoTR bit of HoME - all I know of those books are what
my father told me after he read them (he was trying to convince me to
read them too, but he failed).
> Perhaps when I open the last of the boxes from my 2002 move
> ... I don't think I had that book long before that, so I doubt
> it could be in any of the 1999 boxes ...
Heh. That sounds very much like me. I've just about finished unpacking
everything from my last move, and that was only because we need to sort
out what we don't need because we'll be moving again in a couple of
months.
--
An eye for an eye will, in fullness of time, leave the whole world blind
-- M. K. Gandhi
Matthew Woodcraft
>Do a married couple go to a restaurant, or does a married couple go
>to a restaurant?
This question seems to appear quite frequently. Perhaps the letters FAQ
should have a reference to letter 218?
-M-
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Matthew Woodcraft <matt...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
if he were to use the sibjunctive
it would make it even more fun
The Sidhekin
> The Sidhekin wrote in message news:<7x4qt4e...@blackbox.dav>...
> > held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) writes:
> > He does not sing until he sees them stir,
>
> Objection -- he does not *clap his hands* until he sees them stir.
And he does not sing (or cry rather) until he claps his hands. I
imagine it must be difficult even for Tom to sing while "whistling
like a starling". :-)
> If you are no lawyer, you should become one. You have great talent!
*bows*
While I should probably go for philology if I ever decide to return
to the University, I do have a tendency on occasion to play the rôle
of devil's advocate. ;-)
> > > "In the night little folk wake up in the darkness, and sleep after
> > > light has come", he says mysteriously,
> >
> > Perhaps Tom has good ears after all, when he is not busy singing?
Why, you snipped my smiley!
"Aye, I did hear: I was not busy singing." ;-)
> What is he supposed to have heard? The hobbits (except our log Sam)
> all had nightmares, but it doesn't say anywhere they made any noise.
Well, taking my rôle seriously for a moment ...
I have never known anyone to wake up from a nightmare without sound.
Usually the whimpering lasts a minute or more. And on waking, we are
in my experience quite audibly short of breath.
And at least two of the Hobbits sat or sprang up. Then again, that
might not make much sound, as the soft mattresses lay directly on a
stone floor. Nothing wooden to make a creak, just the rustling of the
blankets and a bare foot on stone. Unless the "fresh green rushes"
strewn on the floor might make more sound. :-)
But really, I was joking!
> > "Kjøkkenhage" is common in Norwegian,
>
> Oh no! Another Scandinavian in disguise!;-)
Disguise? What, do you mean my spam trap? Are you having trouble
finding the .no in there? :-)
> > so I never had any trouble
> > with this -- but you made me check the dictionary to be sure:
> >
> > "kitchen garden: garden or part of a garden where fruit and
> > vegetables are grown"
> > Beans and berries -- fruit and vegetables -- the flowers
> > and the grass belong to another part of the garden :-)
>
> Thank you for looking it up! As for the flowers: some flowers and
> leaves of flowers are edible, so they could be planted in the kitchen
> garden.
Actually, some grasses are edible too -- we used to grow some way
back when. (No edible flowers though. *g* Not even cauliflowers.)
(And I have been told that the long-corned rice is in fact not rice,
but a kind of grass.)
For all this, I still have trouble thinking of them as vegetables,
though you are of course quite correct.
> > Or perhaps OMW was possessed. Your choice.
> >
> Yes, or some psychiatric disorder:-)
*The Sidhekin imagines a disorder of the study of mental illnesses*
Why, that image is a perfect fit to a certain recent off-topic
thread here on RABT! A psychiatric disorder indeed!
;-)
(Since I was so uncouth as to bring it up: You probably want
"psychological" or "mental" here.)
> > *trinklet*
> >
> (snip discussion on trinket/trinklet)
>
> I never noticed anything strange about the word trinklet, because I do
> not know the word, nor the word trinket. I think, trinklet sounds
> nicer and as for the origins, I saw comrade Meneldil had something to
> say on the matter which yoy may enjoy.
He did indeed, but then Shanahan came out saying it is a typo after
all ... or maybe all three of his editions had the typo? Not that
that lessened my enjoyment of Meneldil's info, mind.
As for which one is nicer: I don't know. "trinket" is itself a nice
little specimen of English vocabulary. I rarely use it though, being
for obscure reasons somewhat partial to the equally obscure "oddbit".
Tolkien I ain't. :-)
The Sidhekin
> On 05 Mar 2004 13:48:33 +0100, The Sidhekin wrote:
>
> >TT Arvind <ttar...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >> > Is there some connotation to "trinklet" missing to "trinket" (and
> >> > missed by me for decades)?
> >>
> >> "Trinklet" was derived from "trinket" by adding the dimunitive "-let" and
> >> contracting the result (I suppose the Dutch would say "trinkje"). So it
> >> has a more folksy, rustic feel to it which is probably why JRRT used it
> >> here.
> >
> > Okay.
>
> Er, is this a difference in editions perhaps? I have three editions of
> the book, each printed in the '70s, and none of them have "trinklet", all
> have "trinket."
1991, single volume, illustrations by Alan Lee. "trinklet".
> Sounds like a printing error to me,
Well, if yours and mine are different, it sure sounds that way.
> or someone's taking the p*ss.
I'm not. Are you?
Igenlode Wordsmith
> AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:<slrnc49nm8.1co....@alder.alberni.net>...
[snip]
> > > [13b] Surprising, that a tree-lover like JRRT speaks about trees
> > > filled with malice and OMW even has a "rotten heart".
> >
> > I attribute at least some of the malice to the trees of the Old Forest
> > hating those who go on two legs.
>
> Definitely, but "rotten heart" says IMO that some malice also existed
> apart from that.
>
I assumed that, once again, Tolkien was extrapolating from the qualities
of an ancient willow. An old, old tree *will* have a rotten heart; the
heart-wood is dead and the living wood lies just under the bark. Some
species of tree are more prone to this than others, but it is not
uncommon for long-lived trees such as those in ancient parkland to be
little more than a standing shell in extreme old age. Where else would
all the stories about hollow trees come from? :-)
Old Man Willow probably *does* have 'a rotten heart' - in fact, we know
he does, because the hobbits have been all the way inside ;-) (What
would he have done with them, I wonder, if Tom Bombadil had not happened
along? Digested them like a Venus flytrap? Surely not.) But because
this is essentially a tree come to life, Tolkien is transferring this
physical state by analogy to the personality of the tree, just as the
Ents are by nature not very 'bendable' either physically or mentally.
Or, at least, that was the double implication I gleaned. Old Man Willow
is not wicked *because* he is old, any more than Remus Lupin was bitten
by a werewolf because his name was Remus Lupin; but in both cases, when
creating the character one assumes that the author suited name to form,
as it were.
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
Never surrender - never give up!
The Sidhekin
> Wes ðu The Sidhekin hal!
>
> > I guess that depends on what you consider to be _final_ ...
>
> My idea of the order in which these things were conceived is:
>
> 1. The idea of tree-men
Earendel, yes. HoME 2. Nothing written about them though; just a
note (as early as Winter of 1914, per CJRT) that Earendel met them in
the South. This was repeated in a later note, but never developed.
> 2. Tom's account of OMW,
Yes, so far.
> with OMW perhaps intended to be a type of tree- man, or related in
> some way to tree-men / tree-giants?
No sign of such relation; indeed I cannot even imagine such a
relation, unless inexplicably, the Ents were somehow already thought
up. OMW showed no sign of walking. He is too "treeish" to be a
tree-man or tree-giant (and tree-giants were not invented yet).
> 3. Conversation about the tree-man / giant seen by Hal.
Yes. (Except it was not yet _Hal_, but Jo Button. Nevermind.)
> 4. Gandalf's imprisonment by evil Treebeard (who was a giant / tree-
> giant?)
He was a Giant at this stage. Not yet tree-giant, though his name
suggests he was tree-like (as does at least one of the notes). But
there is no suggestion that other giants were tree-like.
Other than that, yes. The order of things is correct so far.
> 5. Evolution of tree-giants into the Good Ents
Nope. Reverse part of it: They were good (or at least kindly)
before they were tree-giants. But they were not yet Ents.
5a. Realignment: evil Giant Treebeard becomes kindly Giant Treebeard
5b. Multiplication: Treebeard gets "many thanes and followers"
5c. Nomenclature: This people named "tree-giants"
All this was written in one session, but it appears to be a single
stream of creative consciousness. It appears to me that 5b and 5c
were not thought of until this was put down.
Also note that these giants are said to have hair and beard "rather
like" twigs, to be "clothed" in dark green "like [...] leaves", and to
"look like" trees. When the Ents appear in the _LotR_, they appear
rather more like walking trees than giants with tree-like features and
clothes. The tree-giants, becoming Ents, develop _towards_ OMW, not
_from_ him.
Then at some point in HoME 7, there is this:
6. Evolution of tree-giants into Ents.
... or possibly several steps ... I'll know when I find it ;-)
> From what you've said, this doesn't seem to be contradicted by the
> history of the drafts.
Well, I may be reading to much into it, but ...
_After_ the OMW scene was written, Tom had OMW down as "the greatest
Willow of the Forest", in which a "grey thirsty earth-bound spirit"
was imprisoned.
This sounds to me as a rather direct contradiction of OMW being a
Tree-man or related to them in any way (beyond being a tree). Of
course, this could be JRRT trying out a new idea as he went along, so
in theory the contradiction is not irrefutable.
[Good grief, I sound like a lawyer, don't I? But I am now too tired
to rewrite that passage ... no one had better sing under _my_ window
next morning! Or is it already next morning?]
> > Confused yet? If not, you may want to give HoME 6 another try :-)
>
> I've not read the LoTR bit of HoME - all I know of those books are what
> my father told me after he read them (he was trying to convince me to
> read them too, but he failed).
That is where I was about seven years ago. I wanted Middle-earth,
not long-winded analyses of the several early versions of a story that
already was the best there could be.
It is a different thing altogether, but I eventually found I could
enjoy it as well. A different kind of magic -- looking behind the
process of writing rather than the process of world-building (though
there is the occasional glimpse of that as well, and much interaction
between these processes).
I understand quite well that this is not to everybody's taste;
though I hope at least some of you find my rambling comments out
of HoME 6 interesting.
Glenn Holliday
>
> Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message news:<pch6409l6opj75mf8...@4ax.com>...
>
> > <snip excellent summary>
I'm rather surprised that the original posting of Ch 7, to which
this appears to be the first reply, not only never appeared
on my ISP's news server, but is not on Google. It looks like
I missed a nice chapter of the week.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:be50318e.04030...@posting.google.com:
One of the few upsides to Ohio, USA - Amish settlements/towns.
I can drive (about 45 minutes to an hour, granted) to a nice
wholesome area and buy fresh (truly fresh) milk, butter, meats.
--
mc
TeaLady (Mari C.)
> "Raafje" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam>
Raafje was correct - "A married couple go to..." is jarring -
and wrong.
A (married) couple goes to the restaurant. "A" is the clue here
- singular.
Married couples go to the restaurant. (plural)
English is not an easy language - it may be less formal that
some, with more leeway in structure and even (although rarer,
now) spelling, but it is not easy.
--
mc
Flora Foxburr
In the USA collective nouns take the singular: A married couple goes
to a restaurant. In the UK collective nouns take the plural: A married
couple go to a restaurant. Both ways are correct.
Flora Foxburr
Brenda Selwyn
>On 05 Mar 2004 13:48:33 +0100, The Sidhekin wrote:
>
>>TT Arvind <ttar...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>> > Is there some connotation to "trinklet" missing to "trinket" (and
>>> > missed by me for decades)?
>> Ah -- it sounds as if "trinket" overran its own derivation
>>"trinklet" by taking on its meaning (in addition to its original
>>meaning, paraphernalia), leaving "trinklet" no outlet but in speech.
>>So, even though "trinket" is the elder, "trinklet" is the original
>>_in this sense_ of the word. (Right?) Yes, I can see Tolkien
>>preferring that.
>
>Er, is this a difference in editions perhaps? I have three editions of
>the book, each printed in the '70s, and none of them have "trinklet", all
>have "trinket." Sounds like a printing error to me, or someone's taking
>the p*ss.
This is fascinating. I've just checked both my copies. The 1968
Unwin edition has "trinklet" (though I'd never noticed this before,
having presumably always misread it as "trinket"; however, I haven't
opened that copy for about 15 years). The 1995 Harper Collins
edition, on the other hand, has "trinket". One of these must be
wrong, but which?
Incidently, neither "trinklet" nor "trinket" appear in The
Encyclopedia of Arda's List of Old & Rare Words, but that might just
be because they've missed it as well.
Brenda
--
*************************************************************************
Brenda Selwyn
"In England's green and pleasant land"
"If we were 'grown up' and 'had a clue' we wouldn't be wasting our time
posting here." - The Softrat
The Arcane Chas
after serious contemplation, Flora Foxburr <flora_...@yahoo.com> put
finger to keyboard and produced the following;
>
>In the USA collective nouns take the singular: A married couple goes
>to a restaurant. In the UK collective nouns take the plural: A married
>couple go to a restaurant. Both ways are correct.
No.
(Sorry, but you made your post as a statement of fact).
--
Cheers,
Chas.
"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination".
TT Arvind
> And "udderstand", is that a typo, or a pun?
The latter; I thought comrade Damm Jensen's rejoinder couldn't be left
unpunished.
--
Meneldil
Why did kamikaze pilots wear helmets?
TT Arvind
> Incidently, neither "trinklet" nor "trinket" appear in The
> Encyclopedia of Arda's List of Old & Rare Words, but that might just
> be because they've missed it as well.
Surely "trinket" does not qualify to be an "Old & Rare" word? Or has it
fallen out of use in British English?
It's at times like this that I realise that Indian English really is a
different dialect of English, and not just a poor cousin 'living off the
smell of an oil rag'.
--
Meneldil
Nothing is faster than the speed of light... To prove this to yourself,
try opening the refrigerator door before the light comes on.
TT Arvind
> I'm rather surprised that the original posting of Ch 7, to which
> this appears to be the first reply, not only never appeared
> on my ISP's news server, but is not on Google. It looks like
> I missed a nice chapter of the week.
Actually, it is available on Google. Try http://snipurl.com/4x9t
--
Meneldil
It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so
ingenious.
Tamfiiris Entwife
* Henriette
> >Yes. "The Grubb" will soon be as well:-)
> Sigh. :-)
we could feminise it a little, perhaps - Grubbina, Grubbie, or even
Grubbette. how's that sound? };8)
> >With all his parody, Aris drew my attention to what I hadn't noticed
> >previously: that Goldberry is absent during most of the
> >conversation between Tom and the hobbits. In the end though, she "sang
> >many songs with them".
> Back in the first half of the 20th Century, when there were visitors
> the women and the men did tend to separate into groups and socialize
> separately, sometimes even in separate rooms; if the visitors were all
> male (or female), the distaff member of the hosting couple would
> tactfully disappear. However, I don't think JRRT is really describing
> this -- Goldberry seems to have her own life, her own things to do,
> and oddly enough, her brief appearances and absences combine make her
> quite a strong character.
there's a reason other than politness for quietly withdrawing from the
rest of the party: housework. a small household of two people suddenly
gets increased by four - think of all the dishes that have to be washed!
seeing that the hobbits stayed there for quite some time, Goldberry
probably didn't have the time to spend all her time chit-chatting.
> I don't know why. Something about how her
> voice is heard above them in the morning of that rainy day. In this
> respect (and only this one), she reminds me of that Egyptian goddess
> whose body forms the sky -- everpresent even when she's not active in
> the story.
i agree. she's certainly very present when she's there, and even when
she's not, some of her... atmosphere?... lingers. she would have been
much more anonymous if she'd just sat there quietly all the time.
--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.
Naturally I worry about mobs with torches and pitchforks showing up at
my door some stormy night to let me know they're uncomfortable with my
little ways. Who doesn't? (Susans McCarthy)
Een Wilde Ier
> "the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:3hpf40dur6kinep43...@4ax.com...
>
>>On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 21:56:01 GMT, 10313...@compuserve.com (Jim
>>Deutch) wrote:
>>
>>>I'll bet the milk in your packs is carefully mixed, filtered, skimmed,
>>>pasteurized, bleached, distilled, polished, irradiated, freeze-dried,
>>>reconstituted and stared at for fifteen seconds by a basilisk before
>>>it gets to your fridge.
>>>
>>
>>So ??!!????
>
>
> Haven't you ever had fresh milk, almost straight from the
> cow? Tastes SO different.
>
> When I was growing up, milk came in glass bottles and
> the cream used to float to the top, forming a thick
> yellow head which you could skim off.
>
> Sometimes when we were camping on farmland the
> farmer would sell us our milk straight from his dairy.
> Unpasturised and still warm - rich and creamy and
> it DID taste different.
Yes, it does. We still get unpasteurised milk when we go to visit our
dairy farmer relatives ;-)
Een Wilde Ier
> "Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:be50318e.04030...@posting.google.com...
>
>
>>"Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message
>
> news:<hD61c.6761$3B....@news.get2net.dk>...
>
>
>>> I have read that in Ireland this duty to be hospitable was so strong
>>>that if a man wanted to really humiliate a king, he would sit himself
>>>at the king's doorstep and starve himself to death.
>
>
>>Could the king not drag him inside?
>
>
> The pagan kings of old in Northern Europe were not absolute rulers.
> There were limits.
There were strict codes of reciprocal rights and obligations. Petty
kingships were not patrilinear, for example (and the High Kingship was
contested every generation between leading claimants).
As I said to Henriette a week or two back, different societies have
different customs. Even in the modern Ireland, it is *extremely* rude to
refuse an offer of hospitality (the cup of tea), even if you're not thirsty.
> In Ireland also, a king had to be unblemished in body.
> I don't know about battle scars, but if he had his hand cut off in battle,
> he could no longer be king. He had to obey the Law, keep his people happy
> and the gods likewise. A king with a bad personality would bring pestilence
> and famine to the land - kingship, in old IndoEuropean thinking, was part of
> the religion just as religion was an integral part of the life.
Along with the fascination with cattle.
>>>>How about Goldberry:-)
>
>
>>> Her too. But she's married
>
>
>>Can you prove that? Because I don't think she is.
Betrothed? Going steady?
> She is, in my mind, certainly married to Tom Bombadil.
>
>
>>(snip explicit language)
>
>
> What explicit language? "...and I have standards"?
where do you want us to start!
Jette Goldie
"TT Arvind" <ttar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ab3e7115...@news.individual.net...
> Wes đu Brenda Selwyn hal!
>
> > Incidently, neither "trinklet" nor "trinket" appear in The
> > Encyclopedia of Arda's List of Old & Rare Words, but that might just
> > be because they've missed it as well.
>
> Surely "trinket" does not qualify to be an "Old & Rare" word? Or has it
> fallen out of use in British English?
>
I can't say that I've ever heard it used in Britain.
The Arcane Chas
after serious contemplation, Jette Goldie <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> put
finger to keyboard and produced the following;
>
>> fallen out of use in British English?
>>
>
>I can't say that I've ever heard it used in Britain.
It's a "common" enough word, though. "Trinket box" (a box in which to
keep trinkets) is perhaps a more usage.
Jette Goldie
"The Arcane Chas" <Ch...@the-arcane.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:O7LW4XA5...@the-arcane.demon.co.uk...
Trinket yes, trinklet no.
--
Jette Goldie
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
INTERACTION - the 63rd Worldcon
"A European Worldcon in Glasgow"
http://interaction.worldcon.org.uk/
TT Arvind
> Trinket yes, trinklet no.
I was talking about "trinket". The only place I've seen "trinklet" is
the LoTR.
--
Meneldil
Having children is hereditary: If your parents didn't have any, then you
probably won't either.
Odysseus
>
[snip]
>
> Goldberry seems to have her own life, her own things to do,
> and oddly enough, her brief appearances and absences combine make her
> voice is heard above them in the morning of that rainy day. In this
> respect (and only this one), she reminds me of that Egyptian goddess
> whose body forms the sky -- everpresent even when she's not active in
> the story.
>
and gave birth to it anew every morning.
--
Odysseus
Odysseus
>
> I would never argue with someone with the same somewhat suspect
> bloodtype as I have, still I would like to subtly point out that the
> milk from your barbarian cows may be faintly yellowish white. When it
> comes from my packs it is always astonishingly white.
>
You might change your mind about that if you saw some against a
brightly lit white background, perhaps spilled on clean snow.
--
Odysseus
Glenn Holliday
>
> Wes šu Glenn Holliday hal!
>
> > I'm rather surprised that the original posting of Ch 7, to which
> > this appears to be the first reply, not only never appeared
> > on my ISP's news server, but is not on Google. It looks like
> > I missed a nice chapter of the week.
>
> Actually, it is available on Google. Try http://snipurl.com/4x9t
Thanks. I see Google can find it from a thread-identifier.
I think I'm still <miffed> that searching on the text of the subject
only finds posts after the first in the thread, because I think I
ought to understand why.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Odysseus
>
[snip]
> Raafje was correct - "A married couple go to..." is jarring -
> and wrong.
>
I disagree that it's outright "wrong", and it wouldn't even be
jarring in every context. See below.
> A (married) couple goes to the restaurant. "A" is the clue here
> - singular.
>
You can't rely solely on the singular grammatical form of "a couple".
While in this case I think the singular verb is better, because one
tends to assume that the action of going to the restaurant is done
'as a couple', consider "A married couple are squabbling." Here the
(plural) persons composing the couple are arguing with each other,
and treating them as a unit by using the singular "is" would seem
less logical. (But in "A married couple is squabbling with their
neighbours" the singular would be better.) In "A married couple
go(es) to the restaurant, the husband driving from home and the wife
taking the bus from work" one might choose either verb-form, to
emphasize either the unity or the diversity in their manner(s) of going.
I should note that the use of a plural verb with a grammatically
singular collective subject is much less common in American English
than in British.
--
Odysseus
The Arcane Chas
serious contemplation, The Arcane Chas <Ch...@the-arcane.demon.co.uk> put
finger to keyboard and produced the following;
>In article <6Fo2c.10135$kB1.13...@news-text.cableinet.net>, but only
>after serious contemplation, Jette Goldie <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> put
>finger to keyboard and produced the following;
>>
>>"TT Arvind" <ttar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:MPG.1ab3e7115...@news.individual.net...
>>>
>>> Surely "trinket" does not qualify to be an "Old & Rare" word? Or has it
>>> fallen out of use in British English?
>>>
>>
>>I can't say that I've ever heard it used in Britain.
>
>It's a "common" enough word, though. "Trinket box" (a box in which to
>keep trinkets) is perhaps a more usage.
(Damn)! :-}
Belba Grubb from Stock
Deutch) wrote:
>On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 18:22:10 -0600, Belba Grubb from Stock
><ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>
>>I spent part of my youth in the dairy country of upstate NY and
>>someone told me there that a certain breed of cow has milk that's
>>yellower than other breeds. I thought it was Jerseys, but a quick
>>google brought up this:
>>
>>"Guernseys
>
>o/` "Byrne dairy milk is mighty fine,
> you just can't beat the hometown line" o/`
>
>http://www.byrnedairy.com/history.cfm
>
>Hover over "1952" then click the link to listen to the jingle!
The server is busy now -- must be a mighty popular jingle! Will keep
trying. We were over in eastern upstate NY, BTW -- definitely
Holstein country as perhaps central NY is, too -- but the name Byrne
Dairy is familiar, although I can't locate any retail sites for it in
that area now at the Web site. That was long ago, though.
Barb