Chapter o/t Week LotR Bk1 Ch.9: "At the sign of the Prancing Pony"

Hashemon Urtasman

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Mar 14, 2004, 9:30:46 PM3/14/04

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Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony

You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/
or sign up for coming chapters over there.

Relevant questions are indicated in the synopsis in [] brackets.

SYNOPSIS
---------
The company travels the four miles to the village of Bree, a journey
which should take about 1 to two hours walking. The region of Bree-land
is in by small area which is inhabited, with wild lands [1] all around
that.

(Background on Bree)

The Men of Bree were brown, broad, and short, and had lived there for a
long time, descendents of the first Men to come there [2]. They were
more familiar with Elves, men, and dwarves than other 'Big people.' The
other group to live in Bree-land were hobbits, and *they* too (nudge
nudge, wink wink, see the italicized 'they' in the text) claimed to be
the oldest settlement of hobbits in the world. Nowhere but in Bree did
Hobbits and Men live together in cooperation, which is said to be
peculiar but 'excellent.'

Shire hobbits considered Bree hobbits to be dull and uncouth, and called
them 'Outsiders.' [4] While the Bree hobbits were decent people, some
of the non-Shire hobbits were like tramps, simply digging holes in the
ground to live in when they felt like it.

Synopsis (cont)
------------

They reach the gate by dark. They are told by the gatekeeper that there
are 'queer folk about' and the inn has some guests. A dark figure
enters the city after them by jumping over the gate. They find
'The Prancing Pony' inn, with a picture of a fat pony standing on its
hind legs. Barliman Butterbur is there, who is said to be fat and bald
[5]. Barliman's assistant is a cherubic and perky hobbit named "Nob"
[6]. He shows them to their rooms where they have dinner, and join the
company in the common-room.

There are many men, local hobbits and dwarves in the common-room, all
talking. The 4 are introduced, and he the local hobbits are friendly
and inquisitive. They ask a lot of questions, so Frodo lies and says
that he writing a book on the hobbits living outside the Shire. They
joyfully give him so much information that he would have been able to
write the book after all, but then they settle down after he doesn't
seem to be doing anything about it right there and then.

Frodo sees Strider [8] sitting alone, who invites Frodo to sit with him.
While they are talking, Pippin begins to tell a story about Bilbo's
birthday party. It sounds like Pippin may be giving away the part about
the disappearance, so [9] Frodo steps in and says thank-you and
good-night from all of them. But the company asks for a song. So Frodo
begins to sing [10]. They love it, but during Frodos encore he gets
excited, and jumps up into the air and the ring slips on his finger [11] .

The whole crowd is amazed that Frodo has seemingly vanished into thin
air. He crawls into a corner, takes the ring off and comes before them,
but they still treat him suspiciously and they all leave the room in a
hurry [12] [13]. Butterbur tells Frodo to warn him and the guests
before doing any magic tricks again, because they don't take kindly to
surprises. They plan to leave by eight in the morning, and Butterbur
promises to tell Frodo something important that he has remembered. Then
Frodo goes off to bed, suspicious of everyone and everything.

QUESTIONS
------------

1. What type of 'wild lands' were around Bree?

2. What event are they referring to when they said 'the kings of men
returned' from over the sea?

3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.

4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?

5. Barliman makes a joke about Ranges and Shire folk both being weird.

"there's no accounting for east and west, meaning the Rangers and the
Shirefolk, begging your pardon."

Bree seems to be 'between' Shire hobbits and Rangers, geographically,
culturally, physically, in skin colour, and hair colour. Breelanders
are both sedentary, and have access to travellers and their news. So
what is that all about?

6. Nob: This name seems to be from another English novel. Is it a young
boy from one of Dickens novels?

7. Mugworts: What could Mug-wort mean? Is this a name Harry Potter took
from Tolkien or what?

8. What is a lankard? (Strider carries one.)

9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this
mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
remember this, being a ranger.

10. 'Only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered. This seems
to be a reference to the rhyme "Hey diddle diddle, the cat and a
fiddle...the cow jumped over the moon" which looks like it is derived
from Tolkien's made up poem.

Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real life
nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to have done
with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then inventing the
mythology it derives from.

11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

12. Southerners mixed up with swarthy breelanders were the spies of the
enemy. Ob discussion: the race issue.

13. Most of the locals left after seeing the magic act, but the dwarves
and strange men stayed a bit longer. Does this mean that Breelanders
were more fearful of the wider world, but the foreign men and dwarves,
obviously travellers, were undisturbed by it? Is this more of the
'scale' of cosmopolitanism on which hobbits are at the bottom, Bree a
bit higher, and men/dwarves/elves higher, and Rangers the highest?

14. anything else you fancy.

Hasan Murtaza

Tar-Elenion

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Mar 14, 2004, 9:50:26 PM3/14/04

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In article
<qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
nos...@spam.com says...

>
> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
>
> You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/
> or sign up for coming chapters over there.
>
> Relevant questions are indicated in the synopsis in [] brackets.
>
> SYNOPSIS
> ---------

<snip>
> QUESTIONS
> ------------

>
> 7. Mugworts: What could Mug-wort mean? Is this a name Harry Potter took
> from Tolkien or what?

"Mugwort. A Bree name; the name of a plant (Artemisia, French armoise,
akin to Wormwood, French armoise amère). Translate by the name of the
plant in the language of translation (for example German Beifuss) If
suitable; or by the name of some other herb of more or less similar
shape. There is no special reason for the choice of Mugwort, except its
hobbit-like sound."
Guide to Names in LotR

>
> 8. What is a lankard? (Strider carries one.)
>

?
Quote please.

--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.

Hashemon Urtasman

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Mar 14, 2004, 10:06:08 PM3/14/04

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Tar-Elenion wrote:
>

>
>>8. What is a lankard? (Strider carries one.)
>>
>

> ?
> Quote please.
>

Sorry I spelled it wrong, tankard. "He had a tall tankard in front of
him...". It's in the dictionary, now. ;)

Hasan

Elwë Singollo

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Mar 15, 2004, 4:34:19 AM3/15/04

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"Hashemon Urtasman" <nos...@spam.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...

>
> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
>
> You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/
> or sign up for coming chapters over there.
>

> 2. What event are they referring to when they said 'the kings of men

> returned' from over the sea?

Could it be Elendil escaping Númenor and the foundation of the kingdom of
Arnor and Gondor?

> 9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this
> mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
> remember this, being a ranger.

I don't quite understand the "being a ranger" part of the sentence...
Strider probably learned what happened at Rivendell, where Bilbo told him
the story of his disappearance. But rangers do not have memory problems, so
it is not surprising that Aragorn remembers Bilbo's story. Besides, knowing
Bilbo's passion for telling stories, I wouldn't be surprised if each time
Aragorn came to Rivendell, bilbo gave him an account of his farewell party!

> 11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
> came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

I don't have the book at hand, but IIRC, he *felt* that someone (or
something!) suggested to put on the ring; nobody yelled put on your ring!
This need to put on the ring was probably an effect of the ring. At this
time, the Nazgul were very close, and the ring probably felt it and tried to
trick Frodo's mind.

>
> 12. Southerners mixed up with swarthy breelanders were the spies of the
> enemy. Ob discussion: the race issue.

The race issue has been discussed in these Forums many many times...
see this thread for example, which is one of many examples
http://groups.google.ch/groups?hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=atl81k07r
f%40enews4.newsguy.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dracist%2Bgroup:alt.fan.tolk
ien%26hl%3Dfr%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.fan.tolkien%26
selm%3Datl81k07rf%2540enews4.newsguy.com%26rnum%3D1

Elwë

Jon Meltzer

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Mar 15, 2004, 7:16:17 AM3/15/04

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"Hashemon Urtasman" <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...

> They reach the gate by dark. They are told by the gatekeeper that there
> are 'queer folk about' and the inn has some guests.

The Fab Five are redecorating the Pony, and giving Butterbur a makeover.

Henriette

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Mar 15, 2004, 8:48:14 AM3/15/04

to

Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:

> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony

(excellent summary, Hesse!)

> While they are talking, Pippin begins to tell a story about Bilbo's
> birthday party. It sounds like Pippin may be giving away the part about
> the disappearance,

But here *I* would have added "and may bring the name of Baggins to
their minds", so (etc.)

> but they still treat him suspiciously and they all leave the room in a
> hurry [12] [13].

[12] [13],LOL
>
> QUESTIONS
> ------------

>
> 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
> 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.

I would speculate a lot darker than (in spite of his hair-dye)the
Aragorn from the movies, with raven black hair and grey eyes and
somewhat tinted skin (is that swarthy?), though not black skin.

>
> 9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this
> mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
> remember this, being a ranger.
>

I think he remembers it, having a good memory and intelligence, but on
this occasion is more worried the name of "Baggins" will come up.

>
> 10. 'Only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered. This seems
> to be a reference to the rhyme "Hey diddle diddle, the cat and a
> fiddle...the cow jumped over the moon" which looks like it is derived
> from Tolkien's made up poem.

Or vice versa.

>
> 11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
> came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

Actually this suggestion came before he started singing, and he
wonders about this suggestion/wish/command again after his vanishing.
But the question remains the same: who had this power over Frodo
and/or the Ring?

>
> 13. Most of the locals left after seeing the magic act, but the dwarves
> and strange men stayed a bit longer. Does this mean that Breelanders
> were more fearful of the wider world, but the foreign men and dwarves,
> obviously travellers, were undisturbed by it?

Yes, in any case less disturbed.

> 14. anything else you fancy.
>

I fancy, that someone enlightens me on the botanical names, of which I
only understand Thistlewool (that probably being the seeds of the
Thistle). I also know Heather, so Heathertoes is a playful variation
referring to the Hobbit's feet, or is it yet another plant? My
dictionary is not very helpful on this point.

Then I have a remark, which I think may have been shortly mentioned
before. It is, that Elves (and Hobbits)(and Dutch and Germans) refer
to the Sun as She. Unlike the French (le soleil), Italians (il sole)
and Spanish (el sol), who think the Sun is male. How is that in other
languages, and may it have to do with the place of women in the
respective societies, or is it accidental?

Henriette

Raven

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Mar 15, 2004, 3:57:06 PM3/15/04

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"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:be50318e.04031...@posting.google.com...

> Then I have a remark, which I think may have been shortly mentioned
> before. It is, that Elves (and Hobbits)(and Dutch and Germans) refer
> to the Sun as She. Unlike the French (le soleil), Italians (il sole)
> and Spanish (el sol), who think the Sun is male. How is that in other
> languages, and may it have to do with the place of women in the
> respective societies, or is it accidental?

Those Norwegian dialects which retain all three grammaticall genders also
have the Sun as feminine (ei sol, sola), and the Moon as masculine (ein
måne, månen). My guess is that this is common to the Germanic languages,
and that Old English had it the same way. Can anyone call me a sage or a
dolt here?
Gaelic also has the Sun as feminine (grian, an ghrian). What about the
Slavonic languages?
<and where is meneldil when we need him to explain about the various
indian languages, plus the multitudinous others that he is familiar with?>
Perhaps a feminine Sun is natural to people who live in cool climates,
who experience her as a bringer of warmth when she's there, pining for her
when she is wan in winter, while people who live in warm climates, who
experience him also as a scorcher of crops and therefore an occasionally
hostile, strong warrior, find it natural to have the Sun as masculine.
Perhaps it also has to do with the presumably more patriarchal society of
the Romans, from whose language the Romance languages descend which you
mention above. The ancestor-societies to the northern ones may not have
been matriarchal, but women seem to have been freer and held in higher
esteem - remember the recent mention of Irish queens as often being of
higher rank than their king husbands. A society where a man's daughters
were often given no names of their own but were known only as their father's
first, second, third etc. daughter might be uncomfortable about something as
strong and important as the Sun being a woman.

Hrafn.

AC

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Mar 15, 2004, 4:55:53 PM3/15/04

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On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT,
Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote:
>
> 1. What type of 'wild lands' were around Bree?

I get the notion of swamps and inhospitable, rocky lands, barren heath,
barrow wights, wolves, that sort of thing. Remember Aragorn talking about
an innkeeper at Bree living within a days march of things so fierce they'd
freeze his blood (I'm paraphrasing from memory here).

>
> 2. What event are they referring to when they said 'the kings of men
> returned' from over the sea?

Thinking about it now, I'm not sure. I always assumed it referred to
Elendil's coming after the Downfall, but I suppose it could equally refer to
the Numenoreans returning to Middle Earth.

>
> 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
> 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.

I think darker of complexion, darker hair, that sort of thing. This seems
to have been a trait of the Numenoreans. I believe this was also a trait of
the House of Beor, which may be where the Numenoreans got it from.

>
> 4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
> hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?

It seems that the Shire and Bree regard each other with some distrust. It
seems to me that the Bree-folk consider the folk of the Shire to be
provincial. An accusation which I consider quite well founded.

>
> 5. Barliman makes a joke about Ranges and Shire folk both being weird.
>
>
> "there's no accounting for east and west, meaning the Rangers and the
> Shirefolk, begging your pardon."
>
> Bree seems to be 'between' Shire hobbits and Rangers, geographically,
> culturally, physically, in skin colour, and hair colour. Breelanders
> are both sedentary, and have access to travellers and their news. So
> what is that all about?

> 9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this

> mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
> remember this, being a ranger.

Well, we find out later that Aragorn and Bilbo are pretty good friends.
Beyond that, it appears that Bilbo's reputation is known.

> 11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
> came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

That has puzzled me as well. I have no idea.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)

Treetop

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Mar 15, 2004, 5:08:17 PM3/15/04

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AC wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT,
> Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote:
>>
>> 1. What type of 'wild lands' were around Bree?
>
> I get the notion of swamps and inhospitable, rocky lands, barren
> heath, barrow wights, wolves, that sort of thing. Remember Aragorn
> talking about an innkeeper at Bree living within a days march of
> things so fierce they'd freeze his blood (I'm paraphrasing from
> memory here).
>

I am more under the impression that that the wild-lands are relative.
Shire hobbits take great care of their gardens and landscape. I was
under the impression that these lands were just not developed.

Pete Gray

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Mar 15, 2004, 5:08:24 PM3/15/04

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On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:50:26 -0800, Tar-Elenion
<tar_e...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>In article
><qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
>nos...@spam.com says...
>>
>>

>> 8. What is a lankard? (Strider carries one.)
>>
>?
>Quote please.

Perhaps a mis-reading of 'tankard'?

'He had a tall tankard in front of him'

--
Pete Gray

Please do not read this message. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning.

Pete Gray

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Mar 15, 2004, 5:13:30 PM3/15/04

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On 15 Mar 2004 05:48:14 -0800, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:

>Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:
>> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
>
>(excellent summary, Hesse!)
>> While they are talking, Pippin begins to tell a story about Bilbo's
>> birthday party. It sounds like Pippin may be giving away the part about
>> the disappearance,
>
>But here *I* would have added "and may bring the name of Baggins to
>their minds", so (etc.)
>
>> but they still treat him suspiciously and they all leave the room in a
>> hurry [12] [13].
>
>[12] [13],LOL
>>
>> QUESTIONS
>> ------------
>>
>> 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
>> 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.
>

Where are Rangers said to be darker than even Bree-landers?

>I would speculate a lot darker than (in spite of his hair-dye)the
>Aragorn from the movies, with raven black hair and grey eyes and
>somewhat tinted skin (is that swarthy?), though not black skin.
>>

Does Aragorn have dark skin?
'in a pale stern face, a pair of keen grey eyes'

Belba Grubb from Stock

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Mar 15, 2004, 5:36:03 PM3/15/04

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On 15 Mar 2004 05:48:14 -0800, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:

>Then I have a remark, which I think may have been shortly mentioned
>before. It is, that Elves (and Hobbits)(and Dutch and Germans) refer
>to the Sun as She. Unlike the French (le soleil), Italians (il sole)
>and Spanish (el sol), who think the Sun is male. How is that in other
>languages, and may it have to do with the place of women in the
>respective societies, or is it accidental?

I don't know how it is for the Dutch and Germans, but Elves and
Hobbits would do it because the female Maia Arien guided the vessel of
the Sun.

Barb

Belba Grubb from Stock

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Mar 15, 2004, 6:13:26 PM3/15/04

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On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT, Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com>
wrote:

>1. What type of 'wild lands' were around Bree?

All the wide, varied terrain of Eriador at least down to the Greyflood
and perhaps all the way to the Gap of Rohan (if one wishes to discount
the Dunlendings for being scattered and "wild"), except for the Shire
and the little strip of Bree land, the Elven lands around the Havens
and at Rivendell, and the Dwarves' halls and mines in the Ered Luin.
Nowhere else did any large group of people dwell, except for the
families of the remaining Dunedain, but where that might have been was
always a secret.

>4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
>hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?

I like that relationship between the two, with each group thinking the
other to be weird while both actually resembled each other quite a
bit. We're not really shown too much of the social mores of the
hobbits in Bree, but I would guess they are just as clannish and
sociable and prim and proper with each other as are their counterparts
in the Shire. Being around Men and, for a while anyway, at a major
crossroads, does seem to have kept the Bree hobbits more interested in
the outside world than the Shire hobbits were.

What's interesting is the reference to "probably many more Outsiders
scattered about in the West of the World in those days than the people
of the Shire imagined. Some, doubtless, were no better than tramps,
ready to dig a hole in any bank and stay only as long as it suited
them. But in the Bree-land, at any rate, the hobbits were ...."

So there were still wandering hobbits, either individually or in
groups, then?

>6. Nob: This name seems to be from another English novel. Is it a young
>boy from one of Dickens novels?

I don't know about Dickens, but judging from Nob Hill in San
Francisco, and a quick look-up on the Web, a nob is a "an elegantly
dressed man (often with affected manners)." A touch of humor from
JRRT, perhaps, in giving the name to a servant.

>7. Mugworts: What could Mug-wort mean? Is this a name Harry Potter took
>from Tolkien or what?

It's a plant -- we had them around up north on dry sandy areas where a
lot of other vegetation couldn't take hold; I haven't looked around
down south here for them. There might be too much competition for
them to thrive down here. They have kind of thick, succulent foliage
covered with a light fuzz, and have big long flower spikes late in the
summer. I think that mugworts were used medicinally many, many years
ago, perhaps as poultices.

>9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this
>mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
>remember this, being a ranger.

Yes, he knew, because of the Ring and also because of Frodo's assumed
identity. Gandalf was concerned enough about Bilbo's planned
disappearance to add a touch of his own to the party -- a sudden flash
when Bilbo disappeared. Gandalf would have told Aragorn about that,
and Aragorn would have shared the wizard's concern about news of a
magic event spreading, and also of people thinking of the
disappearance and putting two and two together, and connecting the new
hobbits at the Inn with the name of Baggins.

>10. 'Only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered. This seems
>to be a reference to the rhyme "Hey diddle diddle, the cat and a
>fiddle...the cow jumped over the moon" which looks like it is derived
>from Tolkien's made up poem.

It's lovely, isn't it. One of my favorite poems in the book!

>Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real life
>nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to have done
>with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then inventing the
>mythology it derives from.

Didn't he already have most of the mythology invented or at least
firmly outlined already when he wrote "The Lord of the Rings"?

>11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
>came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

Well, Bill Ferny certainly knew something about it, as he fixed the
hobbits with a "knowing and half-mocking" expression. He couldn't
have made the suggestion, though -- not powerful enough, though he
certainly passed along the information. I wonder if that half-orc
southerner with him (Saruman's man, no?) might have been able to do
it? Perhaps not, and it came from the Nazgul who were already in
Bree, even though they didn't actually approach the Inn themselves.

>12. Southerners mixed up with swarthy breelanders were the spies of the
>enemy. Ob discussion: the race issue.

Alluded to above -- many of the southerners are just men traveling,
but there are spies, and I think in the appendices somewhere it's said
that the one this night in Bree was indeed a half-orc?

>13. Most of the locals left after seeing the magic act, but the dwarves
>and strange men stayed a bit longer. Does this mean that Breelanders
>were more fearful of the wider world, but the foreign men and dwarves,
>obviously travellers, were undisturbed by it? Is this more of the
>'scale' of cosmopolitanism on which hobbits are at the bottom, Bree a
>bit higher, and men/dwarves/elves higher, and Rangers the highest?

Oh, I don't think so -- the Dwarves and Men, except Strider, who
remained soon got up and said good night to Butterbur but not to our
heroes. And from the way Butterbur reacted to Strider, the Rangers
weren't anywhere near the top of the social scale in Bree.

Imagine if you were at a hotel somewhere, relaxing in the bar and
suddenly saw something weird like that from one of your fellow guests!

>14. anything else you fancy.

Who were the rest of the Men from the south who had come up the
Greenway, "on the move, looking for lands where they could find some
peace"? Did they head for the Shire after they left Bree, hearing
Lotho was looking for some muscle?

Also, I love the detailed mention of the food the hobbits had for
dinner here. It's one of the few complete menus given in the story.

Barb

TT Arvind

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Mar 15, 2004, 6:55:37 PM3/15/04

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Wes ðu Raven hal!

> <and where is meneldil when we need him to explain about the various
> indian languages, plus the multitudinous others that he is familiar with?>

Hmm. In Sanskrit, genders are associated with words rather than objects
so although the deities of both sun and moon are male, some of the words
used for the moon are female. situation is a little more complicated in
relation to the sun, since the dawn and dusk are female. The noon is
sometimes female too, but usually male. In modern northern Indian
languages, all common words for the sun are masculine, while there
usually are both masculine and feminine words for the moon.

In the southern languages, the sun and moon are neuter. They can be
personified, in which case they will be given whichever gender is
appropriate. The languages don't have grammatical gender, so this is
quite easy.

Thai has virtually no gender, and I don't remember enough of the
literature to remember if the moon was normally male or female. Some
very common female names mean 'moon', but that isn't determinative.

I like your theory of the northern sun being female because she was more
'gentle' as opposed to the fierce southern sun. Although, after having
read the sagas I don't see how the Germanics could possibly have regarded
their women as being 'gentle' in any way.

--
Meneldil

FEATURE n. a surprising property of a computer program. A bug can be
changed to a feature by documenting it.

loisillon

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Mar 15, 2004, 7:00:06 PM3/15/04

to

Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:<qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...

tchak

>
>
> 11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the ring
> came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

Not only in the room. The suggestion could be from anybody outside.
One of the Black Riders, likely. We know that they ride along the
streets of Bree to seek "Baggins".

Hashemon Urtasman

unread,

Mar 15, 2004, 7:46:44 PM3/15/04

to

Pete Gray wrote:

>>
>>>but they still treat him suspiciously and they all leave the room in a
>>>hurry [12] [13].
>>
>>[12] [13],LOL
>>
>>>QUESTIONS
>>>------------
>>>
>>>3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
>>>'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.
>>
>
> Where are Rangers said to be darker than even Bree-landers?
>

para 3, "In those days no other Men gad settled dwellings so far west,
or within a hundred leagues of the Shire. But in the wild lands beyond
Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree-folk called them
Rangers, .... They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree ...."

>
>>I would speculate a lot darker than (in spite of his hair-dye)the
>>Aragorn from the movies, with raven black hair and grey eyes and
>>somewhat tinted skin (is that swarthy?), though not black skin.
>>
>
> Does Aragorn have dark skin?
> 'in a pale stern face, a pair of keen grey eyes'
>
>

Well he has 'wolf like' eyes, so maybe that is as close to 'keen grey'
as they could get.

Hasan

Shanahan

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Mar 15, 2004, 9:18:05 PM3/15/04

to

On 15 Mar 2004 05:48:14 -0800, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:

>Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:
>> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
>

>> 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
>> 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.
>
>I would speculate a lot darker than (in spite of his hair-dye)the
>Aragorn from the movies, with raven black hair and grey eyes and
>somewhat tinted skin (is that swarthy?), though not black skin.

I think Strider to be dark-haired, but not dark-skinned. The Numenorean
race is said to be fair-skinned, grey-eyed, and dark-haired. And don't
forget, his hair is shaggy and flecked with grey!

In older forms of English, and in a lot of languages I think, an adjective
applied to a person meaning "dark" or "bright" or "fair" usually meant
hair color, not skin color.

- Ciaran S.
_________________________________
"I'm too old for this. I should be at home,
playing canasta with Radagast."
-mst3k

Emma Pease

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Mar 15, 2004, 9:17:06 PM3/15/04

to

In article <evbc5093jo218nku1...@4ax.com>, Belba Grubb

from Stock wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT, Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com>

>>13. Most of the locals left after seeing the magic act, but the dwarves

>>and strange men stayed a bit longer. Does this mean that Breelanders
>>were more fearful of the wider world, but the foreign men and dwarves,
>>obviously travellers, were undisturbed by it? Is this more of the
>>'scale' of cosmopolitanism on which hobbits are at the bottom, Bree a
>>bit higher, and men/dwarves/elves higher, and Rangers the highest?
>
> Oh, I don't think so -- the Dwarves and Men, except Strider, who
> remained soon got up and said good night to Butterbur but not to our
> heroes. And from the way Butterbur reacted to Strider, the Rangers
> weren't anywhere near the top of the social scale in Bree.
>
> Imagine if you were at a hotel somewhere, relaxing in the bar and
> suddenly saw something weird like that from one of your fellow guests!

I think it more likely that the local men/hobbits had somewhere to go
to discuss things, their homes, while for the dwarves and foreign men
their only real option was to go to bed.

My question: Are the Bree men and the Dunlendings the same race?

Emma

--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht

Kristian Damm Jensen

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Mar 16, 2004, 7:22:21 AM3/16/04

to

Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT, Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com>
> wrote:
>

<snip>

>> 6. Nob: This name seems to be from another English novel. Is it a
>> young boy from one of Dickens novels?
>
> I don't know about Dickens, but judging from Nob Hill in San
> Francisco, and a quick look-up on the Web, a nob is a "an elegantly
> dressed man (often with affected manners)." A touch of humor from
> JRRT, perhaps, in giving the name to a servant.

From http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

1nob
Etymology: probably alteration of knob
1 : HEAD 1
2 : a jack of the same suit as the starter in cribbage that scores one
point for the holder -- usually used in the phrases his nob or his nobs

2nob
Etymology: perhaps from 1nob
chiefly British : one in a superior position in life

<snip>

>> Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real life
>> nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to have done
>> with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then inventing
>> the mythology it derives from.
>
> Didn't he already have most of the mythology invented or at least
> firmly outlined already when he wrote "The Lord of the Rings"?

Not quite. The history of the second and third age was not invented as yet.

What's more, he invented detail of the mythology as he went along and
"needed" them.

<snip>

--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. --
John Lennon

zett

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Mar 16, 2004, 11:00:10 AM3/16/04

to

Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:<qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
[excellent summary regretfully snipped][other questions snipped]

> Frodo sees Strider [8] sitting alone, who invites Frodo to sit with him.

Aw, you should have given the first appearance of Strider more
build-up than that! ;) I *love* the intro to Strider so much, I think
I will bore everyone by repeating it here:

Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather-beaten man,
sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to
the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard* in front of him, and was
smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved** His legs were stretched
out before him, showing high boots of supple leather that fitted hm
well, but had seen much wear and were now caked with mud. A
travel-stained cloak of heavy dark-green cloth was drawn close about
him, and in spite of the heat of the room he wore a hood that
overshadowed his face; but the gleam of his eyes could be seen as he
watched the hobbits.***

*A tankard is a thing to drink out of, by the way-the fact that he had
a _tall_tankard suggests to me that he could put away quite a bit of
beer. :grin:

**Curiously carved _how_ I wonder...Was it one of those Sherlock
Holmes- looking curved stemmed pipes? Did it have some kind of
Numenorian letters or runes carved on it- or what?

***What sartorial clues to the inner man lie within this description?
You can tell a lot about a person by their garb, and especially their
footwear, you know. :) For me there is an interesting dichotomy
between the fact that the guy could afford high class well-made
footwear yet he subsequently had to wear it down and get it dirty. Is
that a hint that he is more/better than he appears? And is the whole
booted/cloaked/hooded thing supposed to make the reader think he is
possibly in league with the Black Riders? It certainly makes him
mysterious enough...And the gleaming eyes...makes us have a shiver
down our back, yess preciousss...

> 3. Rangers are said to be darker than even Bree-landers. What type of
> 'dark' is this talking about, swarthy? Ob racism discussion may follow.

I don't think dark, in this case, refers to skin color at all. It
says later that Aragorn had a _pale_stern face. I think dark here
refers to a combo of hair/eye color and _demeanor_ as in sombre, even
brooding maybe. Also, I seem to recall the Welsh as being referred to
as 'dark' when compared others-but that was a way to set them aside as
strangers, the unknown- and every one of them I have ever seen is
white. I think folks who get hung up on Tolkien and race (I am not
saying *you* in particular, Hasan) forget that the guy used language
poetically and for effect as well as literally.

> 4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
> hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?
>
> 5. Barliman makes a joke about Ranges and Shire folk both being weird.

I think Tolkien keeps bringing up stuff like this to say that most
folks are xenophobic to some degree, and that most folks don't know as
much as they like to let on.

> 10. 'Only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered. This seems
> to be a reference to the rhyme "Hey diddle diddle, the cat and a
> fiddle...the cow jumped over the moon" which looks like it is derived
> from Tolkien's made up poem.
>
> Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real life
> nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to have done
> with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then inventing the
> mythology it derives from.

I vaguely recall that there has been this whole, well, argument is too
strong a word maybe, but discussion amongst folklorists or whatever
kind of academics who go around giving a crap where nursery rhymes
come from, over the origin of Hey Diddle Diddle...here Tolkien is
poking at that whole thing by saying in effect "you're _all_ wrong, my
hobbits invented it! End of discussion" It is another one of T's
academic jokes. I love it when he does stuff like that. :)

Hashemon Urtasman

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Mar 16, 2004, 12:52:27 PM3/16/04

to

zett wrote:
> Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:<qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
> [excellent summary regretfully snipped][other questions snipped]
>
>>Frodo sees Strider [8] sitting alone, who invites Frodo to sit with him.
>
>
> Aw, you should have given the first appearance of Strider more
> build-up than that! ;) I *love* the intro to Strider so much, I think
> I will bore everyone by repeating it here:
>

Good going!

> Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather-beaten man,
> sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to
> the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard* in front of him, and was
> smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved** His legs were stretched

Notice more juxtaposition here, ... "tall tankard, long pipe, legs
stretched out, high boots" All gives the impression of a tall, thin man
(like John Kerry a bit.)

> ***What sartorial clues to the inner man lie within this description?
> You can tell a lot about a person by their garb, and especially their
> footwear, you know. :) For me there is an interesting dichotomy
> between the fact that the guy could afford high class well-made
> footwear yet he subsequently had to wear it down and get it dirty. Is
> that a hint that he is more/better than he appears? And is the whole
> booted/cloaked/hooded thing supposed to make the reader think he is
> possibly in league with the Black Riders? It certainly makes him
> mysterious enough...And the gleaming eyes...makes us have a shiver
> down our back, yess preciousss...
>

Nice point, it's impossible to know at this point whether Strider is
good or evil. Most signs point to him being evil, but a few don't.

>

>>4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
>>hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?
>>
>>5. Barliman makes a joke about Ranges and Shire folk both being weird.
>
>
> I think Tolkien keeps bringing up stuff like this to say that most
> folks are xenophobic to some degree, and that most folks don't know as
> much as they like to let on.
>
>

Barliman also (in his joke) calls Shire folks "Outsiders" in a slip of
the tongue, which is the very name that Shirefolk use for other hobbits.
Shows that everyone thought everyone else was weird.

>>10. 'Only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered. This seems
>>to be a reference to the rhyme "Hey diddle diddle, the cat and a
>>fiddle...the cow jumped over the moon" which looks like it is derived
>>from Tolkien's made up poem.
>>
>>Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real life
>>nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to have done
>>with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then inventing the
>>mythology it derives from.
>
>
> I vaguely recall that there has been this whole, well, argument is too
> strong a word maybe, but discussion amongst folklorists or whatever
> kind of academics who go around giving a crap where nursery rhymes
> come from, over the origin of Hey Diddle Diddle...here Tolkien is
> poking at that whole thing by saying in effect "you're _all_ wrong, my
> hobbits invented it! End of discussion" It is another one of T's
> academic jokes. I love it when he does stuff like that. :)

It's also something anyone who reads literature where snippets of older
works are quoted in newer ones (Plato quoting Homer, Gospels quoting the
Old Testament), so it's nice to be able to manufacture one 'ancestor
work' right in the middle of your own story.

Hasan

Hashemon Urtasman

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Mar 16, 2004, 12:53:26 PM3/16/04

to

Hashemon Urtasman wrote:

>
> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
>
> You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/
> or sign up for coming chapters over there.
>
> Relevant questions are indicated in the synopsis in [] brackets.
>
> SYNOPSIS
> ---------
> The company travels the four miles to the village of Bree, a journey
> which should take about 1 to two hours walking. The region of Bree-land
> is in by small area which is inhabited, with wild lands [1] all around
> that.
>
> (Background on Bree)
>
>
> The Men of Bree were brown, broad, and short, and had lived there for a

My mistake. "The Men of Bree were *brown-haired*, ... "

Sorry for the confusion.

Hasan

Raven

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Mar 16, 2004, 2:17:56 PM3/16/04

to

"TT Arvind" <ttar...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:MPG.1ac052af9...@news.individual.net...

> Hmm. In Sanskrit, genders are associated with words rather than objects

This seems to be the case in the European IE languages as well. Take the
German word "Weib". It means "woman", and is of neuter grammatical gender.
Same with "Mädchen", ("girl", "young woman") which I have read is neuter
because the diminutive suffix "-chen" will produce a neuter word. And in
Norwegian you do not find words related in meaning necessarily having the
same gender. "Mountain" is of neuter gender, (true of both "fjell" and
"berg"), while "stone" is masculine.
It's what you get with an ancestor language where nouns were initially
not grouped according to any sort of biological gender, but only developed
into genders in that a majority of feminine words somehow landed in one of
the two original groups which then split into the modern neuter and feminine
genders. :-)

> I like your theory of the northern sun being female because she was more
> 'gentle' as opposed to the fierce southern sun. Although, after having
> read the sagas I don't see how the Germanics could possibly have regarded
> their women as being 'gentle' in any way.

Oh come on. The old Norse women rarely fought with their own hands, they
mostly shamed and otherwise put the men up to it. They slew by proxy, and
by some definitions of culpability this indicates that they were more gentle
than the menfolk. :-)

Hrafn.

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Mar 17, 2004, 4:24:42 AM3/17/04

to

TT Arvind <ttar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1ac052af9...@news.individual.net>...
> Wes ğu Raven hal!

>
> > <and where is meneldil when we need him to explain about the various
> > indian languages, plus the multitudinous others that he is familiar with?>
>
> Hmm. In Sanskrit, genders are associated with words rather than objects
> so although the deities of both sun and moon are male, some of the words
> used for the moon are female. situation is a little more complicated in
> relation to the sun, since the dawn and dusk are female. The noon is
> sometimes female too, but usually male. In modern northern Indian
> languages, all common words for the sun are masculine, while there
> usually are both masculine and feminine words for the moon.
>

Interesting, although it seems *very* complicated!

> I like your theory of the northern sun being female because she was more
> 'gentle' as opposed to the fierce southern sun.

Yes, seconded. Genuine creative thinking, if you made that up by yourself!
(snip)
Iniyaruti

Henriette

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Mar 17, 2004, 4:37:12 AM3/17/04

to

"Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in message news:<DPJ5c.8739$sU7....@news.get2net.dk>...

> "TT Arvind" <ttar...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:MPG.1ac052af9...@news.individual.net...
>
> > Hmm. In Sanskrit, genders are associated with words rather than objects
>
> This seems to be the case in the European IE languages as well.

IE?

> Take the
> German word "Weib". It means "woman", and is of neuter grammatical gender.

With this example I understand Meneldil's remark better (that in
Sanskrit, genders are associated with words rather than objects). Yes,
I always thought it strange: die (feminine)Frau but das (neuter) Weib.

> > read the sagas I don't see how the Germanics could possibly have regarded
> > their women as being 'gentle' in any way.
>
> Oh come on. The old Norse women rarely fought with their own hands, they
> mostly shamed and otherwise put the men up to it. They slew by proxy, and
> by some definitions of culpability this indicates that they were more gentle
> than the menfolk. :-)
>

Sometimes there seems to be a world hidden behind certain sentences:-)

Ent Hierre

Henriette

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Mar 17, 2004, 4:42:21 AM3/17/04

to

Pete Gray <ne...@redbadge.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:<6cac50dgffknppk6s...@4ax.com>...

>
> Does Aragorn have dark skin?
> 'in a pale stern face, a pair of keen grey eyes'

He must have been ill that day. One should think a Ranger should be
tanned, or at least have a healthy complexion, being outside most of
the time. Unless he had a hat/hood even bigger than Gandalf's.

Henriette

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Mar 17, 2004, 4:49:54 AM3/17/04

to

"John Jones" <jo...@jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:<c37pua$o16$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...

LOL. Wild guess: If the song originates from a country where the sun
can be merciless, the one "brighter than is the sun". If it originates
from England, it is strange that the one black as coal would be the
villainess. After all, indipendent from any racial theories, we have
archetypes.

Henriette

Kristian Damm Jensen

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Mar 17, 2004, 4:54:12 AM3/17/04

to

Henriette wrote:
> "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in
> message news:<DPJ5c.8739$sU7....@news.get2net.dk>...
>> "TT Arvind" <ttar...@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>> news:MPG.1ac052af9...@news.individual.net...
>>
>>> Hmm. In Sanskrit, genders are associated with words rather than
>>> objects
>>
>> This seems to be the case in the European IE languages as well.
>
> IE?

Indo-European. Ravnen is merely making sure noone thinks he is talking
about Basque, Hungarian og Finnish.

--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk

If you can't be bothered making your message readable, why should I be
bothered reading it?

Henriette

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Mar 17, 2004, 4:58:27 AM3/17/04

to

Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:<v9H5c.19612$TxJ....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...

> Notice more juxtaposition here, ... "tall tankard, long pipe, legs
> stretched out, high boots" All gives the impression of a tall, thin man
> (like John Kerry a bit.)
>

LOL. Imagine giving up your immortality for John Kerry!

Henriette

TT Arvind

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Mar 17, 2004, 6:24:56 AM3/17/04

to

Wes ğu the softrat hal!

> Hebrew, a Afro-asiatic language, does.

Good point. So does Arabic, and I suppose so do other members of the
family.

--
In a single day, Samson slew a thousand Philistines with the jawbone of
an ass. Every day, thousands of sales are killed with the same weapon.

Tamim

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Mar 17, 2004, 8:27:59 AM3/17/04

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Mar 17, 2004, 3:36:00 PM3/17/04

to

"BaldiePete" <baldiepete...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c3acd5$254rba$1...@ID-115617.news.uni-berlin.de...

Pshaw! What do *they* know? They're all weird in
North Berwick, ye ken!

Pete Gray

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Mar 17, 2004, 4:37:13 PM3/17/04

to

Or one of the lesser-known uses of athelas -- sun block.

--
Pete Gray
while ($cat!="home"){$mice=="play";}

Pete Gray

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Mar 17, 2004, 4:43:06 PM3/17/04

to

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:19:19 GMT, "Jette Goldie"
<j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:

>
>Like two villages 5 miles apart, they're really the *same*
>but think each other different, concentrating on minor
>differences in customs instead of similarities. I grew up
>in a town in the east of Scotland. An old market town,
>the main *industry* had been farming (in the past). Ten
>miles (less in fact) was another town, where *in the past*
>the main industry had been coal mining...... now both
>towns actually had similar forms of employment (both
>acted as dormitary towns for the big city) - but Oh! we
>were SO different. Those Tranenters *spoke weird*
>compared with us Haddingtoners. They actually

They call themselves 'Belters' -- but they don't know why. What can
you expect? And they don't speak quite as weirdly as Panners.

Pete Gray

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Mar 17, 2004, 4:45:30 PM3/17/04

to

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:36:00 GMT, "Jette Goldie"
<j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:

>
>Pshaw! What do *they* know? They're all weird in
>North Berwick, ye ken!

Isn't the entire population of North Berwick made up of people who've
retired from Edinburgh to play golf in their declining years? they
probably call Gullane 'Gillan' as well.

Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message

unread,

Mar 17, 2004, 5:43:26 PM3/17/04

to

> On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:19:19 GMT, "Jette Goldie"
> <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>>Those Tranenters *spoke weird*
>>compared with us Haddingtoners.

In rec.arts.books.tolkien Pete Gray <ne...@redbadge.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> They call themselves 'Belters' -- but they don't know why. What can
> you expect? And they don't speak quite as weirdly as Panners.

Aren't all of those places (Tranent, Haddington, North
Berwick, Prestonpans) in East Lothian?!? So this is not even
an East Lothian vs. Midlothian thing? Blimey.

--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)

Bruce H

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Mar 17, 2004, 5:41:57 PM3/17/04

to

In article <4bb40450.04031...@posting.google.com>,
yze...@yahoo.com (zett) wrote:

> >
> > Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real life
> > nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to have done
> > with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then inventing the
> > mythology it derives from.
>
> I vaguely recall that there has been this whole, well, argument is too
> strong a word maybe, but discussion amongst folklorists or whatever
> kind of academics who go around giving a crap where nursery rhymes
> come from, over the origin of Hey Diddle Diddle...here Tolkien is
> poking at that whole thing by saying in effect "you're _all_ wrong, my
> hobbits invented it! End of discussion" It is another one of T's
> academic jokes. I love it when he does stuff like that. :)

The book "J.R.R. Tolkien, Author of the Century" has a really good
discussion of this. Tolkien was an expert in language, and one thing that
interested him was the origins of "lost" words. There are words and names
and place-names whose origin is now unknown, and Tolkien worked out
possible linguistic histories for them. Some of his possible linguistic
histories formed the basis for parts of his fiction, and in this instance
he's working out a possible history of the "Hey Diddle Diddle" poem, of
which the current version is simply a fragmented echo.
I'm totally oversimplifying Shippey's discussion. Best to check out his
book for more.

Bruce

Brenda Selwyn

unread,

Mar 17, 2004, 7:15:50 PM3/17/04

to

>"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:

>
>"Hashemon Urtasman" <nos...@spam.com> wrote

>> 6. Nob: This name seems to be from another English novel. Is it a young
>> boy from one of Dickens novels?
>
>Just as well it wasn't "Hob" - since Hob is an old English
>word for the devil <g>

Although there is a Hob on Sam's family tree.

Both are pet forms of Robert, common in the Middle Ages but I think
even by Dickens' time more or less fallen into disuse. Nobby is still
occasionally heard as a nickname, but Nob doesn't seem to be used in
this way, probably for the obvious reason:-)

Brenda

--
*************************************************************************
Brenda Selwyn
"In England's green and pleasant land"

"If we were 'grown up' and 'had a clue' we wouldn't be wasting our time
posting here." - The Softrat

Jette Goldie

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Mar 18, 2004, 12:48:16 PM3/18/04

to

"Pete Gray" <ne...@redbadge.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message

news:kchh50tfs1ejo1ubb...@4ax.com...

Well, *everyone* agrees that "the Pans" is the home
of all things weird! <g>

(in Haddington it was the byword for bad taste - "oh
furry dice in your car? That's so Panish!!")

Jette Goldie

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Mar 18, 2004, 12:48:17 PM3/18/04

to

"Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in
message news:c3akad$25s09o$1...@ID-193590.news.uni-berlin.de...

> > On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:19:19 GMT, "Jette Goldie"
> > <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
> >>Those Tranenters *spoke weird*
> >>compared with us Haddingtoners.
>
> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Pete Gray <ne...@redbadge.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > They call themselves 'Belters' -- but they don't know why. What can
> > you expect? And they don't speak quite as weirdly as Panners.
>
> Aren't all of those places (Tranent, Haddington, North
> Berwick, Prestonpans) in East Lothian?!? So this is not even
> an East Lothian vs. Midlothian thing? Blimey.

Yup. Let's not get started on the East Lothian v West Lothian
thing either! <g>

Brenda Selwyn

unread,

Mar 18, 2004, 3:38:48 PM3/18/04

to

>Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote:

> 4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
> hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?

The passage describing the Bree-land suggests that, while comings and
goings between the Shire and Bree were never commonplace, in recent
times they have dwindled to near-cessation. Why is this? Have the
wilds become more dangerous, or are perceived more as such? Or have
the two groups of Hobbits become more insular and interested only in
their own affairs?

>Frodo steps in and says thank-you and
>good-night from all of them. But the company asks for a song. So Frodo
>begins to sing [10]. They love it, but during Frodos encore he gets
>excited, and jumps up into the air and the ring slips on his finger [11] .

This passage seems to show a side to Frodo's character we don't see
much elsewhere in the books. Most of the time he seems rather
reserved and proper, and to take life quite seriously. I find it a
little difficult to imagine him singing and dancing on tables,
behaviour I'd associate more with Pippin. This shows he does indeed
have something of a wild, "Tookish" streak, though it's usually very
well hidden.

unread,

Mar 18, 2004, 8:46:56 PM3/18/04

to

On 17 Mar 2004 01:37:12 -0800, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
>
>IE?
>
Indo-European

(like "Dutch", for example)

unread,

Mar 19, 2004, 6:33:34 PM3/19/04

to

As in from the Indus (River) through Europe. Sanskrit is related to Dutch!

--
Regards,

Michael P. Reed

AC

unread,

Mar 19, 2004, 6:33:45 PM3/19/04

to

There is some reference in UT, if I remember correctly, that there may have
been some Hobbits in the Wilderland still.

--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com

Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message

unread,

Mar 19, 2004, 7:57:20 PM3/19/04

to

> On 17 Mar 2004 22:43:26 GMT, m...@privacy.net (Jamie Andrews; real
> address @ bottom of message) wrote:
>> Aren't all of those places (Tranent, Haddington, North
>>Berwick, Prestonpans) in East Lothian?!? So this is not even
>>an East Lothian vs. Midlothian thing? Blimey.

In rec.arts.books.tolkien Pete Gray <ne...@redbadge.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Midlothian? Name it not! But don't you get this sort of thing

> elsewhere? ...

> The local rivalries
> still run deep between the old burghs (many of which, if they were in
> England, would be classed as villages rather than towns).

Sure, e.g. Richmond and Surrey (two suburbs of Vancouver)
are always carping at each other and insulting each other's
inhabitants. But I was referring to the "they talk funny over
there" comments.

I know someone who claims that he can tell the difference
between an Alberta accent and a Saskatchewan accent. I don't
believe him. I have lived all my life except 3.5 years in
Canada. I have lived in Ottawa, London Ontario, Saskatoon,
Vancouver, and Victoria, and visited Toronto frequently. Other
than a few obvious very local accents (e.g. rural Ottawa
Valley), given a person from two different places anywhere from
British Columbia to Ontario, I can't tell any difference between
their accents. Certainly inhabitants of Richmond and Surrey
don't have different accents (assuming they were born in Canada).

But you and Jette are saying that a few small towns within
about 10 miles of each other in one county of Scotland all have
different accents! The 3.5 years that I lived outside of
Canada, I lived in Edinburgh, and although I was aware of
differences between Leith and Morningside accents, I didn't
think that Tranenters could possibly have different accents than
Haddingtoners. It's amazing.

the softrat

unread,

Mar 19, 2004, 9:54:20 PM3/19/04

to

On 19 Mar 2004 01:57:28 -0800, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
>>
>Thank you and Kristian! for explaining. I'm familiar with the
>expression Indo-European (but I wasn't with IE), although I have
>always wondered where the Indo-part stood for. In Dutch an Indo means
>someone with his roots in Indonesia.
>

'Indo' as in 'Ind' ian......('Indonesia' is from Greek meaning 'Indian
Islands'. The Indonesians call it something else in Indonesian.)

'Indo' is from the name of the River Indus. So is 'Hindu' and 'Sind'.

the softrat
"LotR: Eleven Oscars! Right up there with _Titanic_!"
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--

Men are from Earth. Women are from Earth. Pop psychology is from
Uranus. Deal with it.

the softrat

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Mar 19, 2004, 9:55:27 PM3/19/04

to

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:33:34 GMT, Michael P. Reed
<mg...@dontspamme.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>As in from the Indus (River) through Europe. Sanskrit is related to Dutch!

Michael, I HATE to reveal this to you, but the Indus River is in Asia.

the softrat
"LotR: Eleven Oscars! Right up there with _Titanic_!"
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--

Emma Pease

unread,

Mar 19, 2004, 10:32:29 PM3/19/04

to

In article
<qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
Hashemon Urtasman wrote:
>
> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
>
> You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/
> or sign up for coming chapters over there.
>
> Relevant questions are indicated in the synopsis in [] brackets.
snip
> They reach the gate by dark. They are told by the gatekeeper that there
> are 'queer folk about' and the inn has some guests. A dark figure
> enters the city after them by jumping over the gate. They find
> 'The Prancing Pony' inn, with a picture of a fat pony standing on its
> hind legs. Barliman Butterbur is there, who is said to be fat and bald
> [5]. Barliman's assistant is a cherubic and perky hobbit named "Nob"
> [6]. He shows them to their rooms where they have dinner, and join the
> company in the common-room.

Except Merry

snip
>
> 14. anything else you fancy.

How does the actions in this chapter show character?

Merry is again the forethinking one, warning them when the rest of the
party goes to the common room. Pippin seems to forget this warning
immediately.

This is also the first appearance of Strider. Given just this chapter
how would you judge him?

Emma

--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht

Jette Goldie

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Mar 20, 2004, 11:57:49 AM3/20/04

to

"Jamie Andrews;

> But you and Jette are saying that a few small towns within
> about 10 miles of each other in one county of Scotland all have
> different accents! The 3.5 years that I lived outside of
> Canada, I lived in Edinburgh, and although I was aware of
> differences between Leith and Morningside accents, I didn't
> think that Tranenters could possibly have different accents than
> Haddingtoners. It's amazing.

Leith and Morningside are closer (milage wise) than
Haddington and Tranent - just. And there is the same
kind of cultural divide as between Leith and Morningside.

Of course *I* was born in Glasgow and moved to Haddington
at age 11, so I was always the outsider - got a lot of stick
from both sides for my West Coast accent...... and when
I go to visit the family back in Glasgow, get a lot of stick
for my East Coast accent!!

aelfwina

unread,

Mar 20, 2004, 1:20:18 PM3/20/04

to

"Emma Pease" <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:slrnc5neq...@munin.Stanford.EDU...

> In article
> <qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
> Hashemon Urtasman wrote:
> >
> > Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony
> >
> > You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/
> > or sign up for coming chapters over there.
> >
> > Relevant questions are indicated in the synopsis in [] brackets.
> snip
> > They reach the gate by dark. They are told by the gatekeeper that there
> > are 'queer folk about' and the inn has some guests. A dark figure
> > enters the city after them by jumping over the gate. They find
> > 'The Prancing Pony' inn, with a picture of a fat pony standing on its
> > hind legs. Barliman Butterbur is there, who is said to be fat and bald
> > [5]. Barliman's assistant is a cherubic and perky hobbit named "Nob"
> > [6]. He shows them to their rooms where they have dinner, and join the
> > company in the common-room.
>
> Except Merry
>
> snip
> >
> > 14. anything else you fancy.
>
> How does the actions in this chapter show character?
>
> Merry is again the forethinking one, warning them when the rest of the
> party goes to the common room. Pippin seems to forget this warning
> immediately.

Of course, then *Merry* goes out and contracts a mild case of Black Breath.
8-) But I think of this as a bit of foreshadowing for his future encounter
with the WK.
(Which I also meant to comment on last week, his encounter in the Barrow
Downs was another.)
Barbara

>
> This is also the first appearance of Strider. Given just this chapter
> how would you judge him?

Even the first time I read it, I was fairly sure he was a "Good Guy", though
I had no inkling then that he was to be a major player.
Barbara

Pete Gray

unread,

Mar 20, 2004, 7:18:41 PM3/20/04

to

On 20 Mar 2004 00:57:20 GMT, m...@privacy.net (Jamie Andrews; real

...but true. Even an outsider like me (I was born and raised in St
Helens, Lancashire, though my older brother and sister were born in
Renfrew, Scotland) can distinguish them. When I first moved up to
Scotland I lived in Fife and regularly met and chatted to the mother
of one of my daughter's school friends as we waited for the school
bus. After a few days of inconsequential chit-chat, I asked my wife
(who knew her much better) 'Does Ann come from Prestonpans?' - she
said 'Yes, how did you know?'. Well, Ann just _sounded_ like she came
from the Pans. I'd been working in East Lothian about six months by
this time.

Tranent and Prestonpans are about 8 miles from Haddington and less
than three miles from each other. But it was the same in St Helens,
too. People from Parr sound different to people from Sutton, or Thatto
Heath, though these places are within a mile or two of one another.
the test for a Parr accent is to ask them to say 'Mars bar' (a popular
confection) -- which comes out as something like "Mare's bare".

Belba Grubb from Stock

unread,

Mar 20, 2004, 7:48:48 PM3/20/04

to

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 03:32:29 +0000 (UTC), Emma Pease
<em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:

>How does the actions in this chapter show character?
>
>Merry is again the forethinking one, warning them when the rest of the
>party goes to the common room. Pippin seems to forget this warning
>immediately.

But then Merry does something even worse -- goes for a walk outside at
night, and almost gets snatched up by a Black Rider. With this closer
inspection of the characters through the discussions here, I'm
starting to see the Bucklanders as a bit more moody and unsociable
than the other hobbits of the Shire, and Merry certainly has some of
those traits.

Pippin does warn Merry that it's safer indoors, but then he relaxes
over much once he gets among friendly hobbits again. After all, he's
been wandering in the woods and over hills and through forests for a
while now, and this must be very rough on an outgoing, sociable Took
(G). As you say, he does forget the warning once he gets among other
hobbits again and can be the center of attention with his stories.
He's a showman.

Too, all the hobbits also appear as trusting and readily at ease in
familiar surroundings.

Somebody else has mentioned the surprising side of Frodo we see here
-- dancing and singing on a table. He has also established a cautious
social relationship with Strider, whose appearance attracted him,
though I think it is mostly Strider who is maintaining the contact at
this point.

>
>This is also the first appearance of Strider. Given just this chapter
>how would you judge him?

Cautiously -- he is clearly a strong character and possibly a
dangerous one. He's a little rough looking and yet not too
threatening, although as somebody has already pointed out, that gleam
in his eyes as he watches the hobbits is alarming. I'm curious about
why he draws Frodo into conversation and keeps him in it, and of
course, when he uses Frodo's real name and accuses of him of putting
his finger into it (instead of his foot), it's clear he knows
something, but it's still not clear if he's on the good side or the
evil side.

Barb

Stan Brown

unread,

Mar 20, 2004, 9:32:20 PM3/20/04

to

"Hashemon Urtasman" <nos...@spam.com> wrote in
rec.arts.books.tolkien:

>You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/

Or not. I found a single static page without a single link.

>The company travels the four miles to the village of Bree, a journey
>which should take about 1 to two hours walking.

Four miles an hour (6440 m/h) is a respectable walking pace for a
Man. For a Hobbit I would believe two miles an hour (3220 m/h).

>2. What event are they referring to when they said 'the kings of men
>returned' from over the sea?

The Númenórean settlements in northwest Middle-earth during the
Second Age. You can read some about this in Appendix A.

Alas I did not buy any good brandy. My palate has never learned to
appreciate it as it deserves. But I have laid in some burgundy ?
some port which we both like,[*] and some good sherry, some
liqueurs, and one bottle of champagne (with a view to Christmas).

>4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
>hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?

Shire hobbits consider Bree hobbits "foreign" -- "strange as news
from Bree" is a proverb in the Shire. But I don't think there's
actually any bad feeling, because Shire hobbits used to come out to
Bree occasionally and stay in the inn, just for fun.

>9. Strider told Frodo to stop Pippin from telling his story. Does this
>mean that Strider knew about Bilbo's birthday party ? Why would he
>remember this, being a ranger.

We don't know, yet, that Strider and Gandalf are friends, and that
Strider and Bilbo are friends. Since both G and B are great talkers,
Strider would have heard all about it from them in Rivendell in the
17 years since it happened.

>13. Most of the locals left after seeing the magic act, but the dwarves
>and strange men stayed a bit longer. Does this mean that Breelanders
>were more fearful of the wider world, but the foreign men and dwarves,
>obviously travellers, were undisturbed by it?

I think it more likely means that the Breelanders had homes to go to
and work to do the next day, whereas the strangers were staying in
the inn and didn't have to get up at any particular time in the
morning.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm

Stan Brown

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Mar 20, 2004, 9:34:21 PM3/20/04

to

"Hashemon Urtasman" <nos...@spam.com> wrote in
rec.arts.books.tolkien:

>Sorry I spelled it wrong, tankard. "He had a tall tankard in front of
>him...". It's in the dictionary, now. ;)

You can get a dictionary definition for any word directly from
Google. For example, type
define: tankard
in the search window. Note the colon at the end of the word
"define".

Stan Brown

unread,

Mar 20, 2004, 9:37:33 PM3/20/04

to

"Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> This seems to be the case in the European IE languages as well. Take the
>German word "Weib". It means "woman", and is of neuter grammatical gender.
>Same with "Mädchen", ("girl", "young woman") which I have read is neuter
>because the diminutive suffix "-chen" will produce a neuter word.

Translated from the German:

"Where is the turnip?" "She is in the kitchen."

"Where is the beautiful and accomplished English maiden?" "It has
gone to the opera."

http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html

Hashemon Urtasman

unread,

Mar 20, 2004, 10:23:02 PM3/20/04

to

Stan Brown wrote:
> "Hashemon Urtasman" <nos...@spam.com> wrote in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>
>
>>You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/
>
>
> Or not. I found a single static page without a single link.
>
>
>
>>The company travels the four miles to the village of Bree, a journey
>>which should take about 1 to two hours walking.
>
>
> Four miles an hour (6440 m/h) is a respectable walking pace for a
> Man. For a Hobbit I would believe two miles an hour (3220 m/h).
>
>

I was assuming that they were on ponies so they might be a little
faster, but that depends on whether they were riding them or not. But
if they were not, then (doh) I forgot that ... Hobbits are shorter than
men!.... They would walk slower.

Let's take their fast walk at 2 mph (3.2 kph).

My GPS measures my slow-paced walk at 2.5km/h, which is 1.6 mph. The
hobbit slow paced walk might be 2 km/h (1.2 mph).

That would make their journey (walking alongside the ponies) to Bree at
least 2 hours, at most 3 hours 20 minutes.

>>2. What event are they referring to when they said 'the kings of men
>>returned' from over the sea?
>
>
> The Númenórean settlements in northwest Middle-earth during the
> Second Age. You can read some about this in Appendix A.
>
> Alas I did not buy any good brandy. My palate has never learned to
> appreciate it as it deserves. But I have laid in some burgundy ?
> some port which we both like,[*] and some good sherry, some
> liqueurs, and one bottle of champagne (with a view to Christmas).
>
>
>>4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the Bree
>>hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?
>
>
> Shire hobbits consider Bree hobbits "foreign" -- "strange as news
> from Bree" is a proverb in the Shire. But I don't think there's
> actually any bad feeling, because Shire hobbits used to come out to
> Bree occasionally and stay in the inn, just for fun.
>
>

Hasan

Troels Forchhammer

unread,

Mar 21, 2004, 9:20:52 AM3/21/04

to

In message
<news:qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> enriched us with:

>
> Chapter 9 - At the sign of the Prancing Pony

<snip>

> 10. 'Only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered. This
> seems to be a reference to the rhyme "Hey diddle diddle, the cat
> and a fiddle...the cow jumped over the moon" which looks like it
> is derived from Tolkien's made up poem.
>
> Here it seems that Tolkien 'invented' a geneology for the real
> life nursery rhyme. This is the sort of thing Tolkien seems to
> have done with LOTR as a whole, first inventing the story and then
> inventing the mythology it derives from.

The process, as I understand it, was a bit more complex than that. He
did have a lot of the mythology in place before starting out on LotR
(primarily first age stuff, AFAIK), but also invented a lot
simultaneously to writing the story - IIRC Númenor is an example of the
latter and the Ents another example.

The starting point for a lot of the mythology was the invented
languages, and that mythology more or less by accident appeared in
glimpses in /The Hobbit/ (not, as far as I understand it, because he
intended that story to take place in Middle-earth, but rather because
he had this beautifully worked-out background which he might as well
use to add some depth to the story).

> 11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the
> ring came from someone in the room. Who could it be?

I don't think that anyone in the room really had the power to create
that temptation in Frodo as I don't believe Bill Ferny nor any of the
Southeners (whether half-orcs or not) had such power within themselves,
nor that any of the Nazgûl were in the room.

As such I think the temptation in the first degree came from the Ring
itself, it is the same temptation, I believe, which we see in other
situations - in the Shire, on Weathertop and elsewhere - and the common
element is the Ring.

The ring might have been reacting to / activated by the presence of one
or more Nazgûl in Bree, but the text suggests (very strongly) that the
temptation is due to someone in the room ("It seemed to him, somehow,
as if the suggestion came to him from outside, from someone or
something in the room.") In that case I believe that it was either the
Ring which reacted to the presence of such people as Bill and the
Southener, who were both in Sauron's service at this point (being cowed
by the Nazgûl), or that the Nazgûl had somehow placed an enchantment
(or whatever) on these people which would activate the Ring. It depends
on what level of consciousness/awareness one assigns to the One Ring, I
suppose. If one believes that the One Ring was fully sapient, then
there is no reason to search beyond the Ring's awareness of its
master's spies, but if one thinks of the Ring's "consciousness" as more
like a computer program, then it is, IMO, necessary to establish a way
to trigger the "reveal yourself" algorithm which derives from the
Nazgûl, as I see those as the only creatures in or near Bree with the
power to trigger the Ring's programming (under that theory).

Personally I tend to ascribe the One Ring with a relatively high level
of consciousness and awareness (the ability to think and make
decisions), so I would think that the Ring here acted independently
because it saw a chance to reveal itself to Sauron's spies.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>

Knowing what
thou knowest not
is in a sense
omniscience
- Piet Hein, /Omniscience/

Troels Forchhammer

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Mar 21, 2004, 9:29:33 AM3/21/04

to

In message <news:slrnc5c9j9.5go....@alder.alberni.net>
AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:

>
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT,
> Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote:
>>

<snip>

>> 2. What event are they referring to when they said 'the kings of

>> men returned' from over the sea?
>

> Thinking about it now, I'm not sure. I always assumed it referred
> to Elendil's coming after the Downfall, but I suppose it could
> equally refer to the Numenoreans returning to Middle Earth.

The wording used in my edition is "when the Kings returned again over
the Great Sea." The term "the Kings of Men" doubtlessly refers to the
Númenoreans as a people, but the continuation of the sentence, "the
memory of the old Kings had faded" suggests to me that the "Kings" in
both instances in this sentence are the Kings of Arnor - i.e. that the
reference is to Elendil and his sons.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>

The idea of being *paid* to govern is terribly middle-class :-)
- Igenlode on AFPH

Raven

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Mar 21, 2004, 8:33:46 AM3/21/04

to

"Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> skrev i en meddelelse
news:MPG.1ac6c9f64...@news.odyssey.net...

> Translated from the German:

> "Where is the turnip?" "She is in the kitchen."

> "Where is the beautiful and accomplished English maiden?" "It has
> gone to the opera."

> http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html

Was that Mark Twain?

Rabe.

Troels Forchhammer

unread,

Mar 21, 2004, 10:15:58 AM3/21/04

to

In message <news:evbc5093jo218nku1...@4ax.com> Belba
Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> enriched us with:

>
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:30:46 GMT, Hashemon Urtasman
> <nos...@spam.com> wrote:
>>

<snip>

>> 4. What attitude do the Shire hobbits maintain with respect to the

>> Bree hobbits? Vice versa? Are shire folk prim and proper?
>

> I like that relationship between the two, with each group thinking
> the other to be weird while both actually resembled each other
> quite a bit.

;-)

It's the old story of two neighbouring villages, the inhabitants of
each thinking the inhabitants of the other weird ...

We see it also within the Shire itself; Sam's reaction to the people of
the Marish and Buckland, and Farmer Maggot's opinion of the people of
Hobbiton.

<snip>

> What's interesting is the reference to "probably many more
> Outsiders scattered about in the West of the World

[...]

> So there were still wandering hobbits, either individually or in
> groups, then?

That would seem to be the meaning of this. Since we never see or hear
of any of them, I would suppose that they keep themselves to themselves
- avoiding contact with others as much as possible.

There's also the bit in UT 3,IV "The Hunt for the Ring" "that no
dwelling of Halflings could be discovered in the Vales of Anduin, and
that the villages of the Stoors by the Gladden had long been deserted."

But Gollum's clan lived by the Gladden long after the Shire had been
established, and if any Hobbits remained from the clans that once
occupied these villages, they were probably wandering in Eriador as did
those who went before them.

<snip>

>>14. anything else you fancy.
>

> Who were the rest of the Men from the south who had come up the
> Greenway, "on the move, looking for lands where they could find
> some peace"?

I've wondered about that as well.
Their stories to Gandalf as he tells about them in II,2 'The Council of
Elrond': "messages reached me telling me of war and defeat in Gondor"
and "fugitives from the South; yet it seemed to me that on them sat a
fear of which they would not speak." Even if we assume that the
messages came from another source than the fugitives (rangers?), I have
always believed that the "fear of which they would not speak" was the
terror of the Witch-king - either from the attack on the bridges in
Osgiliath or the later rides on the western side of Anduin (when the
Nazgūl were searching for the Shire).

> Did they head for the Shire after they left Bree, hearing Lotho was
> looking for some muscle?

I suppose they did - not necessarily directly as Farmer Cotton in 'The
Scouring ...' explains that Lotho brought in the Men as a response to
people getting angry when "things began to get short, and winter coming
on. too." This gives me the impression that we're talking mid October
at the earliest, perhaps a month or so after the party leaves Bree.

I think that they probably went from Bree to just beyond the borders of
the Shire, where they probably awaited Lotho's call.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>

The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the
opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.
- Niels Bohr

ste...@nomail.com

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Mar 21, 2004, 12:00:39 PM3/21/04

to

In rec.arts.books.tolkien Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
: Didn't he already have most of the mythology invented or at least
: firmly outlined already when he wrote "The Lord of the Rings"?

The stories of the first age and the stories of Numenor existed.
Everything to do with the third age, the Rings of Power, Gandalf,
Saruman, Galadriel was made up as he went. Aragorn started
out as a hobbit named Trotter. The Rings started out created
by Feanor or Morgoth.

Stephen

Troels Forchhammer

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Mar 21, 2004, 1:50:01 PM3/21/04

to

In message <news:21pp501mj1oe5dtbh...@4ax.com> Belba
Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> enriched us with:

>
> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 03:32:29 +0000 (UTC), Emma Pease
> <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>

<snip>

>> This is also the first appearance of Strider. Given just this
>> chapter how would you judge him?
>
> Cautiously -- he is clearly a strong character and possibly a
> dangerous one.

Agreed. He is definitely introduced as "one to keep an eye on."

> He's a little rough looking and yet not too threatening,

And he demonstrates an alarming knowledge of the quest.

> although as somebody has already pointed out, that gleam in his eyes
> as he watches the hobbits is alarming.

I suppose it's meant to be ;-)
It is, IMO, an important part of the ambiguity with which Strider is
introduced in this chapter. It is - again IMO - brilliant to introduce
a major hero of the book in this way.

> I'm curious about why he draws Frodo into conversation and keeps him
> in it,

Within the context of this chapter it is very curious indeed. His
conversation - especially when he gives out hints of his knowledge -
seems ominous, but on the other hand he really does seem concerned only
with talking - as you say above he doesn't seem too threatening.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to
(a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks.
- (Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites)

Henriette

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Mar 21, 2004, 2:18:54 PM3/21/04

to

the softrat <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message news:<facn501rel36kj1tk...@4ax.com>...

> On 19 Mar 2004 01:57:28 -0800, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
> >>

> >( snip) I have always wondered where the Indo-part stood for. (In Indo-European, snip)

> >
> 'Indo' as in 'Ind' ian......('Indonesia' is from Greek meaning 'Indian
> Islands'. The Indonesians call it something else in Indonesian.)

Do they? Because IIRC their national anthem says: "Indonesia raya
merdeka".

>
> 'Indo' is from the name of the River Indus. So is 'Hindu' and 'Sind'.
>

Thank you. So my ancestors wandered that far westwards, or possibly
partly went by boat. So did yours, but then twice...

Henriette

unread,

Mar 21, 2004, 2:23:35 PM3/21/04

to

Michael P. Reed <mg...@dontspamme.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<irL6c.11140344$Of.18...@news.easynews.com>...
>
> (snip)Sanskrit is related to Dutch!

Both the language and the people have come a loooong way from their root!

Henriette

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Mar 21, 2004, 2:28:38 PM3/21/04

to

"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in message news:<hK_6c.21518$gK2.47...@news-text.cableinet.net>...

> Of course *I* was born in Glasgow and moved to Haddington
> at age 11, so I was always the outsider - got a lot of stick
> from both sides for my West Coast accent...... and when
> I go to visit the family back in Glasgow, get a lot of stick
> for my East Coast accent!!

Which reminds me Jette, that I read the ingredients of my shampoo this
morning and you know what it said: Scottish sea-water!

Henriette

unread,

Mar 21, 2004, 2:31:17 PM3/21/04

to

Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message news:<Xns94B3A673FC...@62.243.74.163>...

> In message <news:evbc5093jo218nku1...@4ax.com> Belba
> Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> enriched us with:
> >

> > I like that relationship between the two, with each group thinking
> > the other to be weird while both actually resembled each other
> > quite a bit.
>
> ;-)
>
> It's the old story of two neighbouring villages, the inhabitants of
> each thinking the inhabitants of the other weird ...
>

Two neighbouring villages, countries, continents......

Henriette

Hashemon Urtasman

unread,

Mar 21, 2004, 2:32:51 PM3/21/04

to

Troels Forchhammer wrote:

>>Cautiously -- he is clearly a strong character and possibly a
>>dangerous one.
>
>
> Agreed. He is definitely introduced as "one to keep an eye on."
>
>
>>He's a little rough looking and yet not too threatening,
>
>
> And he demonstrates an alarming knowledge of the quest.
>

And you are not sure whether he is just some inn-hopping "thing" or
something significant in the story.

>
>>although as somebody has already pointed out, that gleam in his eyes
>>as he watches the hobbits is alarming.
>
>
> I suppose it's meant to be ;-)
> It is, IMO, an important part of the ambiguity with which Strider is
> introduced in this chapter. It is - again IMO - brilliant to introduce
> a major hero of the book in this way.
>

I'll bet this was done (once again) for reasons of the Christian Bible.

The Messiah's description in Isaiah follows Striders introduction pretty
much in the essentials. He has 'no form nor beauty that we should
desire him, he is despised and rejected of men, and we hid our faces
from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. "

http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/isa53.htm

(One might think of other myths too, Theseus entering Athens for
example. But that is a whole different ball of wax.)

I think that the reason Tolkien had for putting these
not-exactly-'allegorical' but mimetic elements in his novel, is partly
because he believed in christianity as something sacred to him. But
then, perhaps he was poking a jab at Lewis who used 'overt' allegory, so
Tolkien used a sort of organic embedding of the memes in his tale to
test whether he would 'get' the thing or not. (I doubt he would have
been able to do so.)

>
>>I'm curious about why he draws Frodo into conversation and keeps him
>>in it,
>
>
> Within the context of this chapter it is very curious indeed. His
> conversation - especially when he gives out hints of his knowledge -
> seems ominous, but on the other hand he really does seem concerned only
> with talking - as you say above he doesn't seem too threatening.
>

This is the character of Strider, that he comes to them but doesn't
confirm them at all, and in the end only the note from Gandalf is the
'key' to confirming his identity. So it's the same with the Messiah,
who nobody would believe in but for all the previous prophecies about
him which the old testament prophets gave about him. Saddens me how
inexact this all is, but that is the history of the way people have
acted within their religions (they don't believe in a new guy without a
note or 'permission slip' from the previous prophets.)

Hasan

Hashemon Urtasman

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Mar 21, 2004, 2:35:07 PM3/21/04

to

Henriette wrote:

two newsgroups....r.a.b.t. (insular, prim and provincial Shire) and
a.f.t. (always concerned with news of faraway battles and places and
events, where big people live who never go to the Shire, where Shirefolk
pop in to get the news and spend a night at the inn.)

> Henriette

Jette Goldie

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Mar 21, 2004, 3:03:20 PM3/21/04

to

"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be50318e.04032...@posting.google.com...

LUSH!!!

yes?

Troels Forchhammer

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Mar 21, 2004, 3:36:58 PM3/21/04

to

In message
<news:D5m7c.130632$TxJ....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>

Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> I think that the reason Tolkien had for putting these not-exactly-
> 'allegorical' but mimetic elements in his novel, is partly because he
> believed in christianity as something sacred to him. But then,
> perhaps he was poking a jab at Lewis who used 'overt' allegory,

I guess that there was also an element of fascination of the literary
effect of this. The Bible is a great story (that is, I think, a part of
its appeal), and reusing elements at this level would be natural to
someone who recognized them and their literary effect.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein

Belba Grubb from Stock

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Mar 21, 2004, 6:08:53 PM3/21/04

to

On 21 Mar 2004 20:36:58 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

>In message
><news:D5m7c.130632$TxJ....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
>Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> enriched us with:
>>
>
><snip>
>
>> I think that the reason Tolkien had for putting these not-exactly-
>> 'allegorical' but mimetic elements in his novel, is partly because he
>> believed in christianity as something sacred to him. But then,
>> perhaps he was poking a jab at Lewis who used 'overt' allegory,
>
>I guess that there was also an element of fascination of the literary
>effect of this. The Bible is a great story (that is, I think, a part of
>its appeal), and reusing elements at this level would be natural to
>someone who recognized them and their literary effect.

"The Gospels contain a fairy-story, or a story of a larger kind
which embraces all the essence of fairy-stories. They contain many
marvels-peculiarly artistic, beautiful, and moving: "mythical" in
their perfect, self-contained significance; and among the marvels is
the greatest and most complete conceivable eucatastrophe."
--- JRRT, in the epilogue to "On Fairy Stories"

Very insightful, Troels and Hasan!

Barb

Emma Pease

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Mar 21, 2004, 6:52:28 PM3/21/04

to

In article <Xns94B39D1C37...@62.243.74.163>, Troels

Forchhammer wrote:
> In message
><news:qz85c.5456$lnp1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
> Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> enriched us with:

>> 11. When Frodo is singing the song, the suggestion to put on the

>> ring came from someone in the room. Who could it be?
>
> I don't think that anyone in the room really had the power to create
> that temptation in Frodo as I don't believe Bill Ferny nor any of the
> Southeners (whether half-orcs or not) had such power within themselves,

> nor that any of the Nazgűl were in the room.

>
> As such I think the temptation in the first degree came from the Ring
> itself, it is the same temptation, I believe, which we see in other
> situations - in the Shire, on Weathertop and elsewhere - and the common
> element is the Ring.

agreed

> The ring might have been reacting to / activated by the presence of one

> or more Nazgűl in Bree, but the text suggests (very strongly) that the

> temptation is due to someone in the room ("It seemed to him, somehow,
> as if the suggestion came to him from outside, from someone or
> something in the room.") In that case I believe that it was either the
> Ring which reacted to the presence of such people as Bill and the
> Southener, who were both in Sauron's service at this point (being cowed

> by the Nazgűl), or that the Nazgűl had somehow placed an enchantment

> (or whatever) on these people which would activate the Ring. It depends
> on what level of consciousness/awareness one assigns to the One Ring, I
> suppose. If one believes that the One Ring was fully sapient, then
> there is no reason to search beyond the Ring's awareness of its
> master's spies, but if one thinks of the Ring's "consciousness" as more
> like a computer program, then it is, IMO, necessary to establish a way
> to trigger the "reveal yourself" algorithm which derives from the

> Nazgűl, as I see those as the only creatures in or near Bree with the

> power to trigger the Ring's programming (under that theory).
>
> Personally I tend to ascribe the One Ring with a relatively high level
> of consciousness and awareness (the ability to think and make
> decisions), so I would think that the Ring here acted independently
> because it saw a chance to reveal itself to Sauron's spies.

Could it be the presence of Aragorn? Not as an evil person but as
someone with power who could be corrupted (though I wonder if any
first time readers see the urge as a command from an evil Strider).
When does the ring first tempt Aragorn? Note that if Frodo is shown
to be an incompetent keeper (which he does if he puts the ring on)
then Aragorn might be tempted to take it (by force if necessary) to
keep it safer.

Henriette

unread,

Mar 22, 2004, 3:08:41 AM3/22/04

to

"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote in message news:<cym7c.22517$N97.48...@news-text.cableinet.net>...

> "Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:be50318e.04032...@posting.google.com...

> > Which reminds me Jette, that I read the ingredients of my shampoo this

> > morning and you know what it said: Scottish sea-water!
>
> LUSH!!!
>
> yes?

Brava!!

Henriette

Michael P. Reed

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Mar 22, 2004, 9:13:47 AM3/22/04

to

In message <ijcn50hg5ucnvmu1a...@4ax.com>, the softrat wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:33:34 GMT, Michael P. Reed
> <mg...@dontspamme.yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >As in from the Indus (River) through Europe. Sanskrit is related to Dutch!
>
>
> Michael, I HATE to reveal this to you, but the Indus River is in Asia.

Yes, I know, and I did not mean to suggest it was. I only meant to suggest that
IE languages extended *from* the Indus region to and including (hence the
"Through") Europe. Apologies if I was unclear.

--
Regards,

Michael P. Reed

Kristian Damm Jensen

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Mar 22, 2004, 3:31:33 PM3/22/04

to

You wasn't unclear and you needn't apologize. The furry bugger was simply
being obstinate. Nothing new there,.

--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for
its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which
they defend" -- J.R.R. Tolkien

the softrat

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Mar 22, 2004, 6:57:11 PM3/22/04

to

On 21 Mar 2004 18:50:01 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

>It is, IMO, an important part of the ambiguity with which Strider is
>introduced in this chapter. It is - again IMO - brilliant to introduce
>a major hero of the book in this way.
>

Except that 1) when 'Strider' was *first* introduced to Frodo, he was
named 'Trotter' and was a hobbit; and 2) Tolkien had no more idea of
who he was than Frodo did.

Note: At that point in the composition of LotR, 'Frodo' may have been
named 'Bingo'.

Note 2: Tolkien didn't know anything about 'Gondor' either.

the softrat
"LotR: Eleven Oscars! Right up there with _Titanic_!"
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Some of my colleagues think that the chemicals we are
experimenting with could potentially cause brain damage, however
I think that fish crunchy bits of salami my new red hippie
noodle. Naked pool frogs?

Mar 24, 2004, 9:20:24 AM3/24/04

to

"Öjevind Lång" <dnivej...@swipnet.se> wrote in message news:<%3r6c.30806$zm5....@nntpserver.swip.net>...

> We do know that on the peninsula of Eryn Vorn, north of Tharbad, there
> were wood-dwellers descended from the people who lived in western
> Middle-earth before the Númenoreans returned. I don't remember where
> this is mentioned, but I bet Conrad does.

Heh... you were probably remembering that we talked about the same
issue a little over four years ago;

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=865k1a%24k99%241%40bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net

Henriette

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Mar 24, 2004, 10:32:15 AM3/24/04

to

Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message news:<L7m7c.130645$TxJ...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...

> Henriette wrote:
>
> > Two neighbouring villages, countries, continents......
>
> two newsgroups....r.a.b.t. (insular, prim and provincial Shire) and
> a.f.t. (always concerned with news of faraway battles and places and
> events, where big people live who never go to the Shire, where Shirefolk
> pop in to get the news and spend a night at the inn.)
>

A nice comparison!

Henriette

unread,

Mar 24, 2004, 10:40:21 AM3/24/04

to

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<MPG.1ac6c8be8...@news.odyssey.net>...

> "Hashemon Urtasman" <nos...@spam.com> wrote in

> rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>
> >You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/
>
> Or not. I found a single static page without a single link.
>
Strange. The *titles* of the chapters are the links. Works very well on my PC.

Henriette

Öjevind Lång

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Mar 24, 2004, 10:50:40 AM3/24/04

to

"Conrad Dunkerson" wrote:

Thank you! :-)
The Númenoreans really behaved like bastards as their culture began to
decline.

Öjevind

Glenn Holliday

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Mar 24, 2004, 10:57:09 PM3/24/04

to

Brenda Selwyn wrote:
>
> >Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> wrote:
>
> >Frodo steps in and says thank-you and
> >good-night from all of them. But the company asks for a song. So Frodo
> >begins to sing [10]..
>
> This passage seems to show a side to Frodo's character we don't see
> much elsewhere in the books. Most of the time he seems rather
> reserved and proper, and to take life quite seriously. I find it a
> little difficult to imagine him singing and dancing on tables,
> behaviour I'd associate more with Pippin. This shows he does indeed
> have something of a wild, "Tookish" streak, though it's usually very
> well hidden.

I like this because it's (I think) the last point in the story
where Frodo lets his hair down. (Hmm. Would hobbits turn that
expression into something about their feet? :-)
At Rivendell Frodo is relaxed for a while, but he usually seems
more formal while under Elvish influence.

--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org

Stan Brown

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Mar 25, 2004, 5:34:36 PM3/25/04

to

"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:

Thanks.

The first part, the square with the border, almost exactly matches
the size of my window, so it looks like the whole page, and I failed
to notice the scroll bar at the right because the page is almost the
same color.

When I scroll down I do see the chapter titles, and they do work as
links. Rather clever to make them Google queries instead of
reinventing the wheel!

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm