CotW; LOTR BK3, Ch1, The Departure of Boromir
Hashemon Urtasman
Book III,
Chapter 1
The Two Towers
This being the first chapter of "The Two Towers", any discussion on the
title itself can be thrown in here.
This chapter starts and ends with Aragorn trying to find out what
happens, and to figure out what course of action to take. Everything he
has done so far, and in that day in particular, seems to have been
"ill-fated." This despair continues in him until he decides to pursue
and save Merry and Pippin, for then his heart "speaks clearly" to him.
The chapter begins when Aragorn follows the hobbit's footprints, and
sits on the same high seat that Frodo sat upon, but he sees nothing that
would help him. One small note: Tolkien informs us that Aragorn would
(if he could) have seen an eagle slowly descending, far in the North. [1].
Suddenly he hears cries and orcs in the woodlands below, and then the
horn of Boromir blows, and 'smote the hills.' [2] Aragorn rushes down
the hill headlong ready to do battle with the cry "Elendil!"
When he found Boromir, he was sitting against a tree with orcs lying
dead all around him. (Cf. the film version of this event, with
fighting). Aragorn praises Boromir, who was in despair for what he did
to Frodo. Aragorn informs him that he has really "conquered" (himself),
and few had gained such a victory (over themselves.) He tells him to
not worry about Minas Tirith. [3]
Aragorn now weeps, perplexed, trying to figure out what to do now that
everything he had been striving for had ended in ruin. By this time,
Legolas and Gimli silently creep through the trees as if they are
hunting (i.e. moving by stealth, in silence.) They had fought, all
Legolas' arrows were spent. They quickly decide that they don't have
time to bury Boromir, and they must try to rescue Merry and Pippin.
They search the orc bodies, finding the knives of Merry and Pippin. They
find goblin soldiers who were bigger than orcs [4] and had differnt
swords, and a white hand on their sheilds, and an "S" rune on their
helms. They quickly guess that this means Saruman. [5]
They lay Boromir in the water, with the swords of his enemies at his
feet, and place him in the river, letting him go. The book says rumour
has it that his body was washed out into the Great sea. [6]
They go back to their camp, deduce that Sam and Frodo have left for
Mordor, and then follow their own way, going after the orcs who captured
Merry and Pippin. [7]
Aragorn remarks that all three races will remember this chase.
Comments/Questions
[1] Is this eagle Gwaihir, who was going to pick Gandalf up from the
mountain after he killed the Balrog? What do we know about which days
these events occured on?
[2] This was not meant to be taken literally, but what else could "smote
the hills" mean besides "splitting them?"
[3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?
[4] Aragorn makes a simple mistake here, by not asking Boromir about
whether Frodo was taken by the orcs or not.
[5] What does a "black field" look like?
[6] "he will not return from mountain and sea." What is the
significance of this? There might be some poem or words from which this
phrase is derived, bt what could it be?
[7] Whenever I think of this trampling in the wild, I always imagine
this Bible verse about the Messiah, "A broken reed He will not break,
and a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully
bring forth justice. He will not be disheartened or crushed, until He
has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:1-4)" The contrast
with orcs is obvious. As I have said before, some of these verses must
have meant something to Tolkien, if he was literate in Christianity.
Other comments, go right ahead.
Hasan
ste...@nomail.com
: [3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?
Swart means dark skinned.
Stephen
Conrad Dunkerson
news:cbo3hv$1di0$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
> Swart means dark skinned.
Yes, but there has always been some question of 'how dark' Tolkien intended
it to mean. He seems to have used it for a whole range of pigmentations.
Chris Kern
>In rec.arts.books.tolkien Hashemon Urtasman <no...@nospam.org> wrote:
>
>: [3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?
>
>Swart means dark skinned.
However, the definition of "dark" varies depending on the usage of the
term. English writings have identified Mediterranean peoples as
"swart" or "swarthy", for instance.
-Chris
Henriette
> The Departure of Boromir
Thank you Hasan, for very well 'facilitating' this chapter! This may
also be a good moment to remark, that I noticed in
http://parasha.maoltuile.org/, that the next 2 chapters are as yet not
accounted for.
>
> This being the first chapter of "The Two Towers", any discussion on the
> title itself can be thrown in here.
>
At the end of my copy of FotR, it says this:
"Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring. The
second part is called The Two Towers, since the events recounted in it
are dominated by Othanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of
Minas Morgul that guards the secret entrance to Mordor; (...). But the
author of this, is not accounted for.
>
> Aragorn praises Boromir, who was in despair for what he did
> to Frodo. Aragorn informs him that he has really "conquered" (himself),
> and few had gained such a victory (over themselves.)
Yes, that is how I read it too. But IMO it is ambiguously worded. One
could argue even that 'few had gained such a victory over so many
orcs'.
> They lay Boromir
(in a boat)
> in the water, with the swords of his enemies at his
> feet, (snip)
Strange custom.
> [3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?
>
Though I will leave this question to the native speakers, my
dictionary says something like: darkish, blackish. Zwart means black,
in Dutch, German: schwarz.
> Other comments, go right ahead.
A) Why does not Sauron use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt
or spoken?
B) Interesting, that Sauron 'does not use white'.
C) Does Legolas say: "I fear you have taken deadly hurt" to the dead
Boromir? (This is important for our upcoming LOTR theatre play:-)
D) Do Aragorn and Legolas make up the nice song for Boromir on the
spot? Usually in LOTR it is said or suggested the song was made
*later*.
Henriette
Graeme Thomas
om>, Hashemon Urtasman <no...@nospam.org> writes
>They search the orc bodies, finding the knives of Merry and Pippin. They
>find goblin soldiers who were bigger than orcs [4] and had differnt
>swords, and a white hand on their sheilds, and an "S" rune on their
>helms. They quickly guess that this means Saruman. [5]
[ snip ]
>[5] What does a "black field" look like?
In heraldry the "field" is the background, upon which all the other
patterns and symbols are displayed. In the blazon (the written
description of the arms) the first word gives the colour of the field.
In this case, it would be "sable a hand argent".
--
Graeme Thomas
AC
>
> A) Why does not Sauron use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt
> or spoken?
He's probably well on the way to thinking of himself as god of Middle Earth
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Jette Goldie
"Chris Kern" <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ldsvd016pug98o038...@4ax.com...
And the Gypsys (Romanies) have always been described
as "swarthy".
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Conrad Dunkerson
news:be50318e.04062...@posting.google.com...
> At the end of my copy of FotR, it says this:
> "Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring. The
> second part is called The Two Towers, since the events recounted in it
> are dominated by Othanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of
> Minas Morgul that guards the secret entrance to Mordor; (...). But the
> author of this, is not accounted for.
Descriptive Bibliography covers the origin of that note in detail;
"4 January 1954 Rayner Unwin sends Tolkien a rough draft of the note about
TT and RK that follows the text at the end of FR."
"23 February 1954 ... He also returns, rewritten, the note for the last page
of FR."
"19 March 1954 Proofs of the note on pronunciation and final note for FR,
and of other pages with blocks, are sent to Tolkien."
"29 March 1954 Tolkien returns the sent him on 19 March, finds an error in
the Ring verse (bk. 1, ch. 2), corrected before publication."
ste...@nomail.com
: On 28 Jun 2004 03:33:19 GMT, ste...@nomail.com posted the following:
: -Chris
Do they use "swart" to describe Mediterranean peoples? I have seen
"swarthy" used, but not "swart". I believe Tolkien only uses "swarthy"
when describing humans, and only uses "swart" when describing Orcs. I
do not know if there is any significance to that.
Stephen
Archie
I've got some questions as far as funeral rites are concerned. Why is Aragorn
so sure that the Great River will carry the funeral boat? Does he know
about Ulmo's power in the river? Is there any special significance attached
to sending the body to the ocean? Dwarves cremate their dead; Elves'
bodies fall into ashes at once; Men of Gondor build tombs;
other Men (and Hobbits) bury their dead. Any other ideas?
Archie
ste...@nomail.com
: Hashemon Urtasman <no...@nospam.org> wrote in message news:<HcMDc.575666$Ar.5...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
: [snip good summary and points]
: I've got some questions as far as funeral rites are concerned. Why is Aragorn
: so sure that the Great River will carry the funeral boat? Does he know
: about Ulmo's power in the river? Is there any special significance attached
: to sending the body to the ocean? Dwarves cremate their dead;
Dwarves only cremate their dead in rare circumstances. They prefer
to bury their dead in stone tombs.
: Elves' bodies fall into ashes at once;
Only Feanor did that. He was special.
Stephen
Larry Swain
"swart" not only refers to the color, but can also indicate
one's moral condition: malignant, baleful, evil, a connotation
that swarthy often lacks.
ste...@nomail.com
: "swart" not only refers to the color, but can also indicate
: one's moral condition: malignant, baleful, evil, a connotation
: that swarthy often lacks.
I do not think it is being used in that sense in this case.
"There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart,
slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands."
Given that this is description of dead Orcs, I do not think it
is describing their moral condition. It is pretty clear this
is a physical description.
Stephen
aelfwina
"Hashemon Urtasman" <no...@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:HcMDc.575666$Ar.5...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Book III,
> Chapter 1
> The Two Towers
>>
> [1] Is this eagle Gwaihir, who was going to pick Gandalf up from the
> mountain after he killed the Balrog? What do we know about which days
> these events occured on?
>
was before or after he picked up Gandalf
>
> [2] This was not meant to be taken literally, but what else could "smote
> the hills" mean besides "splitting them?"
I always think of "smote" as "striking a mightly blow", which would mean to
me that the sound of the horn was *really* loud.
>
> [3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?
>
> [4] Aragorn makes a simple mistake here, by not asking Boromir about
> whether Frodo was taken by the orcs or not.
Yes. But caught in the emotion of the moment, an understandable one.
>
>
> [5] What does a "black field" look like?
"Field" is herald-speak for background color on a coat of arms or device.
(actually it should be "sable", but JRRT avoided French words mostly)
>
> [6] "he will not return from mountain and sea." What is the
> significance of this? There might be some poem or words from which this
> phrase is derived, bt what could it be?
>
>
> [7] Whenever I think of this trampling in the wild, I always imagine
> this Bible verse about the Messiah, "A broken reed He will not break,
> and a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully
> bring forth justice. He will not be disheartened or crushed, until He
> has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:1-4)" The contrast
> with orcs is obvious. As I have said before, some of these verses must
> have meant something to Tolkien, if he was literate in Christianity.
>
>
> Other comments, go right ahead.
One more: as beautiful as Boromir's funeral song was, I still think it was a
bit of a mistake to stand about singing while the Orcs are getting further
and further away with their hobbits.
>
> Hasan
>
aelfwina
news:<HcMDc.575666$Ar.5...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
> > The Departure of Boromir
>
> Thank you Hasan, for very well 'facilitating' this chapter! This may
> also be a good moment to remark, that I noticed in
> http://parasha.maoltuile.org/, that the next 2 chapters are as yet not
> accounted for.
> >
> > This being the first chapter of "The Two Towers", any discussion on the
> > title itself can be thrown in here.
> >
> At the end of my copy of FotR, it says this:
> "Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring. The
> second part is called The Two Towers, since the events recounted in it
> are dominated by Othanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of
> Minas Morgul that guards the secret entrance to Mordor; (...). But the
> author of this, is not accounted for.
> >
> > Aragorn praises Boromir, who was in despair for what he did
> > to Frodo. Aragorn informs him that he has really "conquered" (himself),
> > and few had gained such a victory (over themselves.)
>
> Yes, that is how I read it too. But IMO it is ambiguously worded. One
> could argue even that 'few had gained such a victory over so many
> orcs'.
It may have been ambiguous on purpose. But I think that Boromir overcoming
his lust for the Ring (after he tripped and fell) was noteworthy as well.
>
> > They lay Boromir
>
> (in a boat)
>
> > in the water, with the swords of his enemies at his
> > feet, (snip)
>
> Strange custom.
Certainly one way to honor a warrior. Anyone who did happen to see would
know he had defeated a great many enemies.
>
> > [3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?
> >
> Though I will leave this question to the native speakers, my
> dictionary says something like: darkish, blackish. Zwart means black,
> in Dutch, German: schwarz.
>
> > Other comments, go right ahead.
>
> A) Why does not Sauron use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt
> or spoken?
Delusions of godhood? Or maybe it was because Orcs were so illiterate, he
didn't want his name butchered. 8-)
> B) Interesting, that Sauron 'does not use white'.
Bad Guy syndrome. c.f. Saruman of "many colors"; White is the "Good Guy"
color!
> C) Does Legolas say: "I fear you have taken deadly hurt" to the dead
> Boromir? (This is important for our upcoming LOTR theatre play:-)
> D) Do Aragorn and Legolas make up the nice song for Boromir on the
> spot? Usually in LOTR it is said or suggested the song was made
> *later*.
It is hard to say. If it was supposed to be spontaneous, it was very well
done; on the other hand, perhaps they simply took an existing song and
adapted it to the purpose. In either case, it was *not* a good time to
stand around singing, and giving the Orcs even more of a head start than
they already had.
Barbara
>
> Henriette
Laura A Maynard-Nelson
> Hashemon Urtasman <no...@nospam.org> wrote in message news:<HcMDc.575666$Ar.5...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
>
> Boromir? (This is important for our upcoming LOTR theatre play:-)
I believed this was aimed at Aragorn. When Legolas and Gimli come upon
the scene they see Aragorn with Boromir, but it looks as if Aragorn is
dead. Then Aragorn moves and speaks, so Legolas makes this comment.
Laura
Matthew Woodcraft
> I believe Tolkien only uses "swarthy" when describing humans, and
> only uses "swart" when describing Orcs.
The Swarthy Men are described as "swart".
-M-
ste...@nomail.com
: -M-
Where does Tolkien use 'swart' when describing Men? In which chapter?
Stephen
John Jones
news:HcMDc.575666$Ar.5...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>
> the hills" mean besides "splitting them?"
>
that the sound of the horn echoed from the surrounding hills.
Andy Cooke
It may not be of relevance, but in the Norse (I think) myths, one
baddie-type race (dark dwarves or goblins) was called the "svart
alfar". Alfar can be translated as "Elves" (but not really
accurately); svart meaning something like "Dark".
--
Andy Cooke
Henriette
> On 28 Jun 2004 04:27:15 -0700,
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > A) Why does not Sauron use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt
> > or spoken?
>
> He's probably well on the way to thinking of himself as god of Middle Earth
Are you referring to the Old Testament?
Henriette
Henriette
> "Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:be50318e.04062...@posting.google.com...
>
> > At the end of my copy of FotR, it says this:
> > "Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring. The
> Descriptive Bibliography covers the origin of that note in detail;
> "4 January 1954 Rayner Unwin sends Tolkien a rough draft of the note about
> TT and RK that follows the text at the end of FR."
>
(snip rest of history of notes).
Thank you Conrad, that it interesting. I thought there was some
disagreement as to which towers were meant. How can that be, when
Prof. Tolkien agreed to the notes?
Henriette
Henriette
(snip)
> But I think that Boromir overcoming
> his lust for the Ring (after he tripped and fell) was noteworthy as well.
>
> > A) Why does not Sauron use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt
> > or spoken?
>
> Delusions of godhood? Or maybe it was because Orcs were so illiterate, he
> didn't want his name butchered. 8-)
>
LOL!
> > B) Interesting, that Sauron 'does not use white'.
>
> Bad Guy syndrome. c.f. Saruman of "many colors"; White is the "Good Guy"
> color!
>
You *are* funny!
> > D) Do Aragorn and Legolas make up the nice song for Boromir on the
> > spot? Usually in LOTR it is said or suggested the song was made
> > *later*.
>
> It is hard to say. If it was supposed to be spontaneous, it was very well
> done;
Too well. I don't find that 'realistic' (if we can say that of a fantasy book).
> on the other hand, perhaps they simply took an existing song and
> adapted it to the purpose.
Yes, I was wondering if they did that.
> In either case, it was *not* a good time to
> stand around singing, and giving the Orcs even more of a head start than
> they already had.
No indeed. But Boromir deserved some form of ritual!
Henriette
Henriette
shouldn't he? Still somehow I also have the idea he speaks to Aragorn,
except that IMO it doesn't make sense.
Henriette
Emma Pease
I understand it as
1. Legolas comes upon Aragorn and Boromir and fears they are dead.
2. He sees Aragorn move but thinks he is hurt (which considering the
number of slain orcs around is not surprising). Hence states
"I fear you have taken deadly hurt"
Emma
ps. The 'you' might also be a plural you and Legolas is referring to both
Aragorn and Boromir but addressing Aragorn since he at least seems to
be conscious.
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Conrad Dunkerson
> Thank you Conrad, that it interesting. I thought there was some
> disagreement as to which towers were meant. How can that be, when
> Prof. Tolkien agreed to the notes?
Generally the bibliographical details haven't been considered in past
discussions. That's one of the best things about these newsgroups... as
time goes by and additional details are dug up these forums serve as both a
forum for analysis and a repository of knowledge - through the memories of
participants and Google groups.
That said, in the past it has been argued that since Tolkien stated in some
letters that he was unsatisfied with the title and it could mean any number
of different things there should thus be no 'correct' answer. However,
since he clearly made a definite decision prior to publication I tend to
think that the earlier uncertainty is no different than any number of other
issues which Tolkien considered variations for before settling on one
solution.
Matthew Woodcraft
>Where does Tolkien use 'swart' when describing Men? In which chapter?
Where the Swarthy Men first come on stage.
That is, in the Quenta Silmarillion paragraph 150, and the Grey Annals
year 463 of the sun.
The text in the published Silmarillion chapter 18 seems to be a
combination of these two.
-M-
AC
No. I was referring more to the fact that Sauron had set himself up as a
god.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Donald Shepherd
> Hashemon Urtasman <no...@nospam.org> wrote in message news:<HcMDc.575666$Ar.5...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
> [snip good summary and points]
> I've got some questions as far as funeral rites are concerned. Why is Aragorn
> so sure that the Great River will carry the funeral boat? Does he know
> about Ulmo's power in the river? Is there any special significance attached
> to sending the body to the ocean?
It is possible that there was some superstitious hope that by putting
the body into a boat and sending them out into the ocean that they
will finally come to rest in the West. However, that's just
speculation off the top of my head. As for how sure Aragorn is, I
always read it as though he felt the River would take Boromir to lie
where it would, and that the boat making it past the Falls was never
part of his plan.
Emma Pease
<HcMDc.575666$Ar.5...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
Hashemon Urtasman wrote:
> The Departure of Boromir
> Book III,
> Chapter 1
> The Two Towers
> The chapter begins when Aragorn follows the hobbit's footprints, and
> sits on the same high seat that Frodo sat upon, but he sees nothing that
> would help him. One small note: Tolkien informs us that Aragorn would
> (if he could) have seen an eagle slowly descending, far in the North. [1].
>
...
>
>
> [1] Is this eagle Gwaihir, who was going to pick Gandalf up from the
> mountain after he killed the Balrog? What do we know about which days
> these events occured on?
No, Gandalf had been rescued some days previously. My guess is that
1. Gwaihir rescues Gandalf and takes him to Lothlorien. One wonders
how Galadriel was able to contact Gwaihir and also what did happen to
Radagast.
2. Gandalf sends Gwaihir to find out what is happening to the party.
Among other information, Gwaihir informs him later that Merry and
Pippin have been captured
3. In the meantime Gandalf remains in a high place (Cerin Amroth?) and
is the other power that Frodo feels in Breaking of the Fellowship
4. At some time Gandalf moves from Lothlorien to Fangorn. Was this by
foot or did Gwaihir carry him (this discussion should probably take
place when we get to the relevant chapter)?
Emma
Archie
On funeral rites in Middle-Earth...
Stephen has already pointed out two mistakes in my collection
of hasty observations. Now, a revised version follows.
Dwarves: a) putting their dead into newly hewn stone tombs;
b) burning the dead on pyres in exceptional circumstances.
Hobbits: the tradition of interring the dead is virtually unbroken.
Men of Gondor/Numenoreans: a) interment is a usual practice -cf.Elendil's tomb;
b) building tombs for later kings and rulers;
c) putting the dead into boats when all else fails.
Sauron's slaves among Men in the Dark Years: pyres and interment are two
plausible options.
Orcs: all dead bodies are consumed.
Elves: death is a rare event, but usually the dead are interred
(cf. Glorfindel).
Please comment if you like.
Archie
Flame of the West
> It is possible that there was some superstitious hope that by putting
> the body into a boat and sending them out into the ocean that they
> will finally come to rest in the West. However, that's just
> speculation off the top of my head. As for how sure Aragorn is, I
> always read it as though he felt the River would take Boromir to lie
> where it would, and that the boat making it past the Falls was never
> part of his plan.
Welcome back, and all that!
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
Larry Swain
Flame of the West wrote:
>
> Donald Shepherd wrote:
>
> > It is possible that there was some superstitious hope that by putting
> > the body into a boat and sending them out into the ocean that they
> > will finally come to rest in the West. However, that's just
> > speculation off the top of my head. As for how sure Aragorn is, I
> > always read it as though he felt the River would take Boromir to lie
> > where it would, and that the boat making it past the Falls was never
> > part of his plan.
>
I haven't been following this thread, so if this has been
mentioned, I apologize. But Germanic funerals of great
warriors/chieftains tended to be ship oriented. Take a look at
Sutton Hoo for example and other ship burials. Or in
literature, Beowulf provides an excellent example in the opening
section about Scyld Shefing--he appears orphaned in a boat and
becomes "a good king" and then when he dies they put into a boat
and send him out to sea. Or look at 13th Warrior, a not too
unfaithful depiction of a Viking funeral as related by the Arab
trader, ibn Fahdlan.
So I suggest that Boromir in a boat is a) practical in the
story, i. e. they don't have time or proper tools to bury him
and can not leave him for carrion and orcs to desecrate. b)
they can not carry his body to Minas Tirith--it'd be decomposing
by the time they got there and then we have the matter of Merry
and Pippin and Sam and Frodo. So the next best thing is to put
him in a boat and let the river/sea take care of him. But in
addition 2) that what lies behind Boromir's body in a boat with
weapons and gear floating down the river to the sea is the
imagery in Germanic poems and culture such as Beowulf and Sutton
Hoo of great warriors/chieftains being sent off in a funeral
ship with treasures.
Odysseus
>
> "Hashemon Urtasman" <no...@nospam.org> wrote in message
> news:HcMDc.575666$Ar.5...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>
> "Field" is herald-speak for background color on a coat of arms or device.
> (actually it should be "sable", but JRRT avoided French words mostly)
Yes, the language of blazon is full of terms from the decadent tongue
of those Johnny-come-lately Normans. ;)
--
Odysseus
aelfwina
"Odysseus" <odysseu...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message
news:40E27444...@yahoo-dot.ca...
You know you've been hanging around with heralds too much when you find
yourself blazoning the road signs ( on a lozenge or, a cross sable ) LOL!
Barbara
>
> --
> Odysseus
Dirk Thierbach
> "Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:be50318e.0406...@posting.google.com...
>> I thought there was some disagreement as to which towers were
>> meant. How can that be, when Prof. Tolkien agreed to the notes?
> Generally the bibliographical details haven't been considered in past
> discussions. That's one of the best things about these newsgroups... as
> time goes by and additional details are dug up these forums serve as both a
> forum for analysis and a repository of knowledge - through the memories of
> participants and Google groups.
> That said, in the past it has been argued that since Tolkien stated in some
> letters that he was unsatisfied with the title and it could mean any number
> of different things there should thus be no 'correct' answer.
Letter #140, 17 August 1953:
The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover
the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous -- it
might refer to Isengard and Barad-dūr, or to Minas Tirith and B; or
Isengard and Cirith Ungol.
Endnote to this letter:
In a subsequent letter to Rayner Unwin (no. 143), Tolkien is more
definite that the Two Towers are 'Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith
Ungol'. On the other hand, in his original design for the jacket of
The Two Towers [...] the Towers are certainly Orthanc and
Minas Morgul.
Letter #143, 22 January 1954:
I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if
there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the
Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic
opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very
misleading.
> However, since he clearly made a definite decision prior to publication
Which is (according to your timeline; thanks a lot for that) on
23 Februrary, so after all letters cited above.
> I tend to think that the earlier uncertainty is no different than
> any number of other issues which Tolkien considered variations for
> before settling on one solution.
I guess some of the FAQs have to be edited now ...
- Dirk
Dirk Thierbach
> Hashemon Urtasman <no...@nospam.org> wrote:
>> They lay Boromir [in a boat] in the water, with the swords of his
>> enemies at his feet, (snip)
> Strange custom.
It never struck me as strange -- it's an obvious way to honor his
abilities as a warrior, and they are probably examples (which Tolkien
would know about more than I do) where buried people have been found
with swords at their feet.
> A) Why does not Sauron use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt
> or spoken?
I guess because it means "the Abhorred". Not really flattering, is it? :-)
> C) Does Legolas say: "I fear you have taken deadly hurt" to the dead
> Boromir?
He could also say this to Aragorn.
> (This is important for our upcoming LOTR theatre play:-)
Then I guess it's up to the actor to interpret it as he sees fit.
> D) Do Aragorn and Legolas make up the nice song for Boromir on the
> spot?
I had this impression. (But of course, historical texts often have
been edited to include "spontanous" parts that were definitely not
made on the spot, but later on by the author).
- Dirk
Taemon
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > C) Does Legolas say: "I fear you have taken deadly
> > hurt" to the dead Boromir?
> He could also say this to Aragorn.
> > (This is important for our upcoming LOTR theatre play:-)
> Then I guess it's up to the actor to interpret it as he
> sees fit.
I'll say it to a rock. It seems we have good rocks in our
company.
T.
Christopher Kreuzer
[following on from the reference to swart orcs in this chapter]
> It may not be of relevance, but in the Norse (I think) myths, one
> baddie-type race (dark dwarves or goblins) was called the "svart
> alfar". Alfar can be translated as "Elves" (but not really
> accurately); svart meaning something like "Dark".
Yes. Don't ask how, but I have a fragment from the Prose Edda of Snorri
Sturluson (written in Iceland in the 1230s). There are references to
light-elves (ljósálfar), dark-elves (dökkálfar) and black-elves
(svartálfar).
Most of Snorri's references to black-elves make clear that the word is
synonymous with dwarves (dverga).
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Christopher Kreuzer
>> [5] What does a "black field" look like?
>
> "Field" is herald-speak for background color on a coat of arms or
> device. (actually it should be "sable", but JRRT avoided French words
> mostly)
Well, mostly... :-)
The orcs at Helm's Deep had sable shields.
The host of Minas Morgul is clad in sable.
Aragorn's banner at Cormallen has a sable field.
Pippin is clad in silver and sable at Cormallen.
Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
> aelfwina <aelf...@cableone.net> wrote:
> The orcs at Helm's Deep had sable shields.
> The host of Minas Morgul is clad in sable.
> Aragorn's banner at Cormallen has a sable field.
> Pippin is clad in silver and sable at Cormallen.
And Morgoth's shield when he fights Fingolfin (IIRC) is
said to be of "sable unblazoned", i.e. pure black.
--Jamie. (a Dover edition designed for years of use!)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
Odysseus
>
> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
[extraneous attribution excised]
> > The orcs at Helm's Deep had sable shields.
> > The host of Minas Morgul is clad in sable.
> > Aragorn's banner at Cormallen has a sable field.
> > Pippin is clad in silver and sable at Cormallen.
>
But not argent and sable!
> And Morgoth's shield when he fights Fingolfin (IIRC) is
> said to be of "sable unblazoned", i.e. pure black.
>
Which is an odd turn of phrase, as "blazon" refers to a verbal
description -- at least it does to heraldists. To depict a device is
to "emblazon" it. Maybe "sable unblazoned" means a nondescript sort
of black. ;)
--
Odysseus
Öjevind Lång
news:Zpk*1O...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> <ste...@nomail.com> wrote:
> > I believe Tolkien only uses "swarthy" when describing humans, and
> > only uses "swart" when describing Orcs.
>
And in one place they are called "swertings". By Hirgon the messenger from
Gondor, I believe.
Öjevind
aelfwina
> "Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message" wrote:
> >
> > In rec.arts.books.tolkien Christopher Kreuzer
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [extraneous attribution excised]
>
> > > The orcs at Helm's Deep had sable shields.
> > > The host of Minas Morgul is clad in sable.
> > > Aragorn's banner at Cormallen has a sable field.
> > > Pippin is clad in silver and sable at Cormallen.
> >
> But not argent and sable!
Perhaps because argent can be *either* silver *or* white. If it is not
emblazoned in color, then to be specific you have to say which one.
Barbara
Christopher Kreuzer
So you think Tolkien meant "sable unemblazoned"?
Maybe he meant that Morgoth did not permit his shield to be blazoned.
A bit like how Sauron did not permit his name to be spoken... :-)
Henriette
Yes:-)But I do not see the connection to his refusal to have his name
spelt or spoken. He might set himself up as a god and have his name
yelled out loud 50 times a day....... I remember though, that a jewish
aquintance I have says to never pronounce the name of God, nor write
it. I forgot why.
Henriette
Henriette
> In article <be50318e.04062...@posting.google.com>, Henriette wrote:
> > (snip)Still somehow I also have the idea he speaks to Aragorn,
> > except that IMO it doesn't make sense.
>
> I understand it as
>
> 1. Legolas comes upon Aragorn and Boromir and fears they are dead.
>
> 2. He sees Aragorn move but thinks he is hurt (which considering the
> number of slain orcs around is not surprising). Hence states
>
> "I fear you have taken deadly hurt"
> ps. The 'you' might also be a plural you and Legolas is referring to both
> Aragorn and Boromir but addressing Aragorn since he at least seems to
> be conscious.
Good ideas. They both seem plausible, thank you!
Henriette
Henriette
> Conrad Dunkerson <cbdun...@verizon.net> wrote:
Snip interesting posts. I finally understand where the Two-tower
disagreement comes from, but I think you both convincingly solved it
here! Thank you.
Henriette
Hasan Murtaza
I actually thought it was because Aragorn was weeping for Boromir, and
Legolas thought he was weeping for some huge hurt.
BTW on that note, since we only have pain receptors in the skin, does it
hurt more to have an arm completely cut off (or cut to the bone), than
to simply have a surface wound?
Hasan
>
> Henriette
Henriette
> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Hashemon Urtasman <no...@nospam.org> wrote:
>
> >> They lay Boromir [in a boat] in the water, with the swords of his
> >> enemies at his feet, (snip)
>
> > Strange custom.
>
> It never struck me as strange -- it's an obvious way to honor his
> abilities as a warrior, and they are probably examples (which Tolkien
> would know about more than I do) where buried people have been found
> with swords at their feet.
>
> > A) Why does not Sauron use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt
> > or spoken?
>
> I guess because it means "the Abhorred". Not really flattering, is it? :-)
>
But if, like Aelfwina suggests, Sauron suffers from the "Bad Guy"
syndrome, it should suit him!
Henriette
Henriette
> Donald Shepherd wrote:
>
> > It is possible that there was some superstitious hope that by putting
> > the body into a boat and sending them out into the ocean that they
> > will finally come to rest in the West. However, that's just
> > speculation off the top of my head. As for how sure Aragorn is, I
> > always read it as though he felt the River would take Boromir to lie
> > where it would, and that the boat making it past the Falls was never
> > part of his plan.
>
> Welcome back, and all that!
>
Henriette
Matthew Woodcraft
>Jamie Andrews wrote:
>> And Morgoth's shield when he fights Fingolfin (IIRC) is
>> said to be of "sable unblazoned", i.e. pure black.
>Which is an odd turn of phrase, as "blazon" refers to a verbal
>description -- at least it does to heraldists. To depict a device is
>to "emblazon" it.
OED gives "blazon, v, to adorn as with blazonry", with a reference from
1813.
-M-
Christopher Kreuzer
> BTW on that note, since we only have pain receptors in the skin, does
> it hurt more to have an arm completely cut off (or cut to the bone),
> than to simply have a surface wound?
I've never heard of there only being pain receptors in the skin. Broken
things _inside_ the body can still hurt. Heart muscle deprived of oxygen
is intensely painful. Broken bones are very painful. Cramping muscle is
very painful (like the heart muscle). And stomach and intestinal pains
are still painful (though they are technically an internal skin
[endothelium] surface). So having an arm cut off is also very painful.
Having said that, the pain receptors can be overwhelmed so that the pain
is deadened, and very clean cuts can be temporarily painless (like the
swimmers who fail to notice a shark has bitten off a leg). Also, an
adrenaline rush can over-ride the pain. And while we are on the subject,
I used to know why paper cuts are so painful, but I've forgotten.
Anyone?
Conrad Dunkerson
> Letter #143, 22 January 1954:
> I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if
> there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the
> Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic
> opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very
> misleading.
It is worth noting that Tolkien wrote the above letter in >response< to his
receipt of the first rough draft of the FotR 'end note' from A&U. As
indicated in my prior post he then rewrote the end note and sent it back
(and then later reviewed and approved proofs of it prior to publication).
So these letters were closely related to the development of that end note.
> I guess some of the FAQs have to be edited now ...
I think this issue is covered pretty thoroughly, but inclusion of the
timeline might help to 'solidify' the evidence.
Hasan Murtaza
Minor correction:
>
> [7] Whenever I think of this trampling in the wild, I always imagine
> this Bible verse about the Messiah, "A broken reed He will not break,
This translation has a problem in it, the first bit I modified based on
my own memory, but it is wrong, it should read "A bruised reed He will
not break," but since I thought bruised was used in an archaic manner, I
figured broken would be a better translation.
Anyways, I found that Tolkien uses the same term "bruised" in the next
chapter of LOTR, the Riders of Rohan, so perhaps the term is not as
archaic as I figured. "...the broad swatch of the marching Orcs tramped
its ugly slot; the sweet grass of Rohan has been bruised and blackened
as they passed,"
> and a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully
> bring forth justice. He will not be disheartened or crushed, until He
Hasan
Steuard Jensen
<JL_Ec.56564$aJ3....@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>:
> I think this issue is covered pretty thoroughly, but inclusion of
> the timeline might help to 'solidify' the evidence.
Wow... how very odd. I've actually had a reference to the
_Descriptive Bibliography_ in the "Two Towers" section of the FAQ for
nearly two years now (though that comment only mentions that Tolkien
saw and approved the note; I hadn't found the reference stating that
he rewrote it himself). But searching Google Groups, it looks like I
never actually mentioned that fact outside of the FAQ itself! That's
not like me... oh well. :)
Thanks, Conrad, for digging up the full chronology; I think I may
incorporate it into the next FAQ revision. (Conveniently, I've still
got the copy of the Bibliography that I checked out for the Thrain(s)
debate.)
Steuard Jensen
AC
> AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<slrnce3qo1.due....@mp1.alberni.net>...
>> On 29 Jun 2004 12:22:13 -0700,
>> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<slrnce0ha6.1dc....@alder.alberni.net>...
>> >> On 28 Jun 2004 04:27:15 -0700,
>> >> Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > A) Why does not Sauron use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt
>> >> > or spoken?
>> >>
>> >> He's probably well on the way to thinking of himself as god of Middle Earth
>> >
>> > Are you referring to the Old Testament?
>>
>> No. I was referring more to the fact that Sauron had set himself up as a
>> god.
>
> Yes:-)But I do not see the connection to his refusal to have his name
> spelt or spoken. He might set himself up as a god and have his name
> yelled out loud 50 times a day....... I remember though, that a jewish
> aquintance I have says to never pronounce the name of God, nor write
> it. I forgot why.
To Jews, as I recall, the name is holy. I think that might explain why
Sauron would make it so, to increase the mystique.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Hasan Murtaza
Either that, or else ... <satire> since the name of the parents is never
spoken directly in some cultures, this could be Tolkien setting up
Sauron to be the father of everything in Middle Earth.
Hasan
Donald Shepherd
held...@hotmail.com says...
Yes, end of last year to be precise. Now gainfully employed as a full-
time procrastinator, though I've been told officially I'm a "software
engineer".
the softrat
> I remember though, that a jewish
>aquintance I have says to never pronounce the name of God, nor write
>it. I forgot why.
>
Because it is too holy for human lips to form and humans to pronounce
without blasphemy. Humans are too unclean.
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"The war isn't the war between the blacks and the whites, the
liberals and the conservatives, or the Federation and the
Romulans. It's between the clueful and the clueless." (an
anonymous poster on cypherpunks list)
the softrat
<donald_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Yes, end of last year to be precise. Now gainfully employed as a full-
>time procrastinator, though I've been told officially I'm a "software
>engineer".
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!
ONE of THEM!!
Donald Shepherd
sof...@pobox.com says...
> On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:44:46 +1000, Donald Shepherd
> <donald_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >Yes, end of last year to be precise. Now gainfully employed as a full-
> >time procrastinator, though I've been told officially I'm a "software
> >engineer".
>
> EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!
>
> ONE of THEM!!
Yes, I get that response a bit. I always thought it was because of the
BO I'm cultivating as per the job description.
the softrat
<donald_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
El softrat gesprach
>>
>> EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!
>>
>> ONE of THEM!!
>
>Yes, I get that response a bit. I always thought it was because of the
>BO I'm cultivating as per the job description.
Are you sure it's not the mouth odor from all the Dr. Pepper(tm) and
Twinkies(tm)?
And I'm sure that the tissue flowing out of your nose has NOTHING to
do with it.
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"You give 100% in the first half of the game, and if that isn't
enough, in the second half you give what's left." -- Yogi Berra
Henriette
> AC wrote:
> > To Jews, as I recall, the name is holy. I think that might explain why
> > Sauron would make it so, to increase the mystique.
>
> Either that, or else ... <satire> since the name of the parents is never
> spoken directly in some cultures
You mean they never say mummy and daddy? Or never say (e.g.)Paul and Lucia?
> , this could be Tolkien setting up
> Sauron to be the father of everything in Middle Earth.
>
Sauron the father and God the mother. That would explain a lot!
Henriette
Henriette
> On 1 Jul 2004 12:06:30 -0700, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
>
> > I remember though, that a jewish
> >aquintance I have says to never pronounce the name of God, nor write
> >it. I forgot why.
> >
> Because it is too holy for human lips to form and humans to pronounce
> without blasphemy. Humans are too unclean.
>
hands? Because the names Yaweh (YWH) and Eli come up.
Henriette
Henriette
> > Yes, welcome back Donlad! (that rhimes). Have you finished your studies?
>
> Yes, end of last year to be precise. Now gainfully employed as a full-
> time procrastinator, though I've been told officially I'm a "software
> engineer".
Congratulations! Now more people than only those just out of nappies
can call you old:-) (Remember you said that?)
Henriette
Henriette
> Henriette wrote:
> > Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in message news:<slrnce3ii...@munin.Stanford.EDU>...
> >>1. Legolas comes upon Aragorn and Boromir and fears they are dead.
> >>
> >>2. He sees Aragorn move but thinks he is hurt (which considering the
> >>number of slain orcs around is not surprising). Hence states
> >>
> >>"I fear you have taken deadly hurt"
> >
> >>ps. The 'you' might also be a plural you and Legolas is referring to both
> >>Aragorn and Boromir but addressing Aragorn since he at least seems to
> >>be conscious.
> >
> > Good ideas. They both seem plausible, thank you!
>
> I actually thought it was because Aragorn was weeping for Boromir, and
> Legolas thought he was weeping for some huge hurt.
Yes. Now we have four very likely possibilities on our hands (the
fourth being, that Legolas speaks to the dead Boromir, seeing him
covered with arrows)!
Henriette
Henriette
> > Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in message news:<slrnce3ii...@munin.Stanford.EDU>...
> >>1. Legolas comes upon Aragorn and Boromir and fears they are dead.
> >>
> >>2. He sees Aragorn move but thinks he is hurt (which considering the
> >>number of slain orcs around is not surprising). Hence states
> >>
> >>"I fear you have taken deadly hurt"
> >
> >>ps. The 'you' might also be a plural you and Legolas is referring to both
> >>Aragorn and Boromir but addressing Aragorn since he at least seems to
> >>be conscious.
> >
> > Good ideas. They both seem plausible, thank you!
>
> I actually thought it was because Aragorn was weeping for Boromir, and
> Legolas thought he was weeping for some huge hurt.
Yes. Now we have four very likely possibilities on our hands (the
Jim Deutch
>Laura A Maynard-Nelson <Laura.A.May...@nasa.gov> wrote in message news:<40E16EFA...@nasa.gov>...
>> Henriette wrote:
>> > Hashemon Urtasman <no...@nospam.org> wrote in message news:<HcMDc.575666$Ar.5...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
>> >
>> > C) Does Legolas say: "I fear you have taken deadly hurt" to the dead
>> > Boromir? (This is important for our upcoming LOTR theatre play:-)
>>
>> I believed this was aimed at Aragorn. When Legolas and Gimli come upon
>> the scene they see Aragorn with Boromir, but it looks as if Aragorn is
>> dead. Then Aragorn moves and speaks, so Legolas makes this comment.
>>
>Then he should have said: "I feared you had taken deadly hurt",
>shouldn't he? Still somehow I also have the idea he speaks to Aragorn,
>except that IMO it doesn't make sense.
Maybe it's a polite way of asking Aragorn why Boromir is a pincushion
while he is unscathed...
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
"If a tree falls in the forest...it'll land on me." - Andrew Rakin
Christopher Kreuzer
> Yes. Now we have four very likely possibilities on our hands (the
> fourth being, that Legolas speaks to the dead Boromir, seeing him
> covered with arrows)!
Very likely possibilities? Hold on!
You have to look at the book again...
"When they [Legolas and Gimli] came into the glade they halted in
amazement; and then they stood a moment with heads bowed in _grief_ ,
for it seemed _plain_ to them what had happened." (my emphasis, 'The
Departure of Boromir', TT)
I read this to mean that Gimli and Legolas realise that Boromir is dead
and so they bow their heads in grief. This is further confirmed by
Legolas's comment:
"We came when we heard the horn - but too late it seems. I fear you have
taken deadly hurt."
This is Legolas saying that it seems too late to respond to Boromir's
horn because Boromir is dead or near death. His comment "I fear you have
taken deadly hurt" is most likely addressed to Aragorn. This is further
suggested by the fact that Legolas came "to Aragorn's side" and also by
Aragorn's response (that he is unscathed, though maybe with Boromir's
blood on him) indicating that Legolas was speaking to him, though of
course Aragorn does know that Boromir can't respond.
It seems plain that Legolas and Gimli, if not certain that Boromir is
dead, realise that he is grievously wounded and probably near death or
already dead. Their concern would be for Aragorn.
I personally _never_ thought that Legolas was speaking to Boromir, but
then that was because I already knew that Boromir was dead. And I didn't
bother thinking about Legolas and Gimli's point of view in the few
moments before Aragorn told them that Boromir is now dead. Even if you
do look more closely at the point-of-views of Gimli and Legolas, all the
textual evidence suggests that Legolas is speaking only to Aragorn.
Flame of the West
> Because it is too holy for human lips to form and humans to pronounce
> without blasphemy. Humans are too unclean.
Speak for yourself!
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
Donald Shepherd
sof...@pobox.com says...
> On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:17:21 +1000, Donald Shepherd
> <donald_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> El softrat gesprach
> >>
> >> EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!
> >>
> >> ONE of THEM!!
> >
> >Yes, I get that response a bit. I always thought it was because of the
> >BO I'm cultivating as per the job description.
>
> Are you sure it's not the mouth odor from all the Dr. Pepper(tm) and
> Twinkies(tm)?
Quite sure, since we don't get them down here in Aussieland - at least
nowhere obvious enough for me to have seen them.
Donald Shepherd
held...@hotmail.com says...
Yes, I stil maintain that as true. It's only about an additional year
or so since I said that.
the softrat
Nope. And you mean 'YHWH', I presume..... The Holy Scripture is full
of YHWH. ('Jehovah' to you Protestant Devils.)
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"I woke up one morning and all of my stuff had been stolen...and
replaced by exact duplicates." -- Steven Wright
the softrat
<jsol...@comcast.net> wrote:
>the softrat wrote:
>
>> Because it is too holy for human lips to form and humans to pronounce
>> without blasphemy. Humans are too unclean.
>
>Speak for yourself!
>
I'm not human!
PPPPPPPPPBBBBBBBBBTTTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHPPPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
the softrat
<donald_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In article <248be0t8t1ciqqbki...@4ax.com>,
>sof...@pobox.com says...
>> On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:17:21 +1000, Donald Shepherd
>> <donald_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> El softrat gesprach
>> >>
>> >> EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!
>> >>
>> >> ONE of THEM!!
>> >
>> >Yes, I get that response a bit. I always thought it was because of the
>> >BO I'm cultivating as per the job description.
>>
>> Are you sure it's not the mouth odor from all the Dr. Pepper(tm) and
>> Twinkies(tm)?
>
>Quite sure, since we don't get them down here in Aussieland - at least
>nowhere obvious enough for me to have seen them.
OOOOOOOOOOOO!
Crypto-Twinkies!
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Michelle J. Haines
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> Hasan Murtaza <h...@none.com> wrote:
>
> > BTW on that note, since we only have pain receptors in the skin, does
> > it hurt more to have an arm completely cut off (or cut to the bone),
> > than to simply have a surface wound?
>
> I've never heard of there only being pain receptors in the skin. Broken
> things _inside_ the body can still hurt.
Having had surgery with only partially effective anesthesia -- my
skin was numb, but the organs they were cutting on most definitely
were NOT, I can personally attest to that. :) Surgery without
anesthesia is definitely not high on my list of recommended
activities.
Michelle
Flutist
--
Drift on a river, That flows through my arms
Drift as I'm singing to you
I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm
And holding you, I'm smiling, too
Here in my arms, Safe from all harm
Holding you, I'm smiling, too
-- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99]
Hasan Murtaza
> On 2 Jul 2004 12:51:06 -0700, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
>
>
>>the softrat <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message news:<3qbae09c9443n2u9a...@4ax.com>...
>>
>>>On 1 Jul 2004 12:06:30 -0700, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I remember though, that a jewish
>>>>aquintance I have says to never pronounce the name of God, nor write
>>>>it. I forgot why.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Because it is too holy for human lips to form and humans to pronounce
>>>without blasphemy. Humans are too unclean.
>>>
>>
>>Is it not forbidden to write it (no offence meant) with our unclean
>>hands? Because the names Yaweh (YWH) and Eli come up.
>>
>
> Nope. And you mean 'YHWH', I presume..... The Holy Scripture is full
> of YHWH. ('Jehovah' to you Protestant Devils.)
>
Without the vowels, it is impossible to say whether the word YHWH (in
Hebrew) was pronounced Yahweh, or merely plain old Yahoo. ;)
BTW, old Sufis used a phrase sounding similar to this in their chants,
"Allah Huu" (which means "Him, God". This could also be shortened to
just "Huu" or "He" to make it simpler.)
I wonder if Yahweh was ever really Yahoo, at some point. Do we know for
sure, sinc Hebtew is written without the vowels?
Hasan
Raven
news:s47ce0145pvb9uctf...@4ax.com...
> I'm not human!
Which is the one thing that makes you proud of yourself?
Hrafn.
Odysseus
>
> Without the vowels, it is impossible to say whether the word YHWH (in
> Hebrew) was pronounced Yahweh, or merely plain old Yahoo. ;)
>
> BTW, old Sufis used a phrase sounding similar to this in their chants,
> "Allah Huu" (which means "Him, God". This could also be shortened to
> just "Huu" or "He" to make it simpler.)
>
> I wonder if Yahweh was ever really Yahoo, at some point. Do we know for
> sure, sinc Hebtew is written without the vowels?
>
_Adonai_ ('DNY), "the Lord". There's an old tradition that says that
if the name were ever to be pronounced with the 'correct' vowels it
would bring about the end of the universe. A considerable amount of
cabalistic speculation focuses on various permutations,
modifications, and combinations of the Tetragrammaton and other such
names, including acrostics (_Notariqon_) formed from longer divine
titles and devotional expressions.
--
Odysseus
Emma Pease
<HcMDc.575666$Ar.5...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
Hashemon Urtasman wrote:
> The Departure of Boromir
> Book III,
> Chapter 1
> The Two Towers
>
>
> Other comments, go right ahead.
This falls into the other comments point of view. With the Fellowship
breaking I thought it might be useful to have a timeline of what is
going on with whom.
I'm going to backtrack slightly, if that is ok, to the party leaving
Lothlorien. I'll also go forward a bit for some info we don't find
out about till later.
Time line
Feb 14
- evening, Mirror of Galadriel
- Gandalf returns to life
Feb 15
- evening, Meeting with Celeborn and Galadriel and decision to leave??
The chapter actually says 'that evening' straight after the mirror and
the party leaving the next day but the Tale of the Years has the
Mirror on the 14th and leaving on the 16th. Either this meeting takes
place on the 14th and the party spends a day packing or it takes place
on the 15th and it should be "the following evening". Other than that
everything else seems to be consistent between the text and the tale
of years.
Feb 16
- "Farewell to Lorien"
- morning, go to the river and pack
- noon, lunch
- set off down the river, trees on both banks
Feb 17
- river journey, no sign of the enemy, still trees
- Gandalf arrives in Lorien
Feb 18
- river journey, trees end and they arrive at the Brown Lands on the
east bank
Feb 19
- river journey, Sam sees Gollum
Feb 20
- river journey
Feb 21
- river journey
Feb 22
- river journey
- evening Sam sees the young moon and is puzzled by it
Feb 23
- eagle sighted
- evening, reach Sarn Gebir, boats attacked, Legolas shoots the
Nazgul's mount
- Shadowfax returns to Rohan
Feb 24
- portage around Sarn Gebir
Feb 25
- river journey, through the Argonath and camp at Parth Galen
Feb 26
- Breaking of the Fellowship
- Frodo and Sam cross to the east bank and head off
- Merry and Pippin captured by orcs
- Death and funeral of Boromir
- late afternoon, Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas set off after the orcs
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Ancalagon The Black
> A) Why does not Sauron use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt
> or spoken?
I got to this thread late, and haven't read all of it yet, so somebody has
probably covered this already. When the Nazgul came to the Gate Of Erebor to
speak to Dain, Sauron was spoken of as "Lord Sauron The Great". For somebody
that does not allow his name to be spoken, this is a bit odd, don't you think?
Best,
--
Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband
ancalagon...@virgin.net
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
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Shanahan
> Hashemon Urtasman <no...@nospam.org> wrote
>> The Departure of Boromir
<snip>
>> They lay Boromir
> (in a boat)
>> in the water, with the swords of his enemies at his
>> feet, (snip)
> Strange custom.
Maybe not for warrior cultures such as the Gondorians. It would be
a tribute to his prowess in war, to his final battle, and perhaps
even a form of heroic bragging, as we hear in Beowulf.
>> [3] The goblins are described as "swart." What does that mean?
>>
> Though I will leave this question to the native speakers, my
> dictionary says something like: darkish, blackish. Zwart means
> black, in Dutch, German: schwarz.
Sorry, OT, but I just had a flashback here to Mel Brooks'
Yiddish-speaking AmerIndians in "Blazing Saddles". hee hee hee...
>> Other comments, go right ahead.
> A) Why does not Sauron use his right name, nor permit it to be
> spelt or spoken?
Because names have power, magical power. The root of all magic is
that oldest of magics, the power of naming. Naming, in ancient
societies, gives one a bit of the essence of the thing named: the
name and the thing are not as differentiated as they are in later
human history. (this power is somewhat analogous to the manner in
which people may be afraid their souls will be stolen by a camera,
if they have not seen photography before)
This power in names is a magical thread that is woven into all of
Tolkien's tales. And not just in formal names; the power lies in
words themselves. The power of words is the one great power that
humans possess; words and their relation to the things they
signify, *create* the world in which humans act. They structure
our reality. Creating systems of meaning is what human beings *do*.
That's why philology and linguistics are so fascinating; they give
us a glimpse into how other cultures structure their reality, how
they conceptualize the world.
I think this underlying theme of T's is often lost in these
newsgroup discussions when we are discussing 'power', and who is
'more powerful' than whoever else. Power in ME is not merely who
can beat up who(m?), who has the biggest sword or army or whatever.
The power of Sauron or Gandalf is infinitely more subtle than that
kind of D&D analysis.
Ciaran S.
--
And the next time I see you we'll be down at the Greeks
There'll be whiskey on Sunday and tears on our cheeks
for it's stupid to laugh and it's useless to bawl
'bout a rusty tin can and an old hurley ball
- the pogues
Christopher Kreuzer
> Henriette wrote:
>
>> A) Why does not Sauron use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt
>> or spoken?
>
> I got to this thread late, and haven't read all of it yet, so
> somebody has probably covered this already. When the Nazgul came to
> the Gate Of Erebor to speak to Dain, Sauron was spoken of as "Lord
> Sauron The Great".
And then there is the "Mouth of Sauron" example.
I think that maybe Aragorn was referring to another name of Sauron that
(obviously) no-one knows. He doesn't mean that the 'S' on the orcs gear
should not be mistaken for 'Sauron', but rather that _no_ letter would
be used to symbolise Sauron, 'S' or otherwise. Even if it had been the
letter 'G' for Gorthaur, or the letter 'A' for Annatar, or the letter
'R' for some other random name, Aragorn would have been justified in
saying that it could not stand for Sauron because "Neither does he use
his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken" does not
necessarily mean that Sauron is Sauron's right name. There might be some
secret name, like for the dwarves, especially given the power you have
over someone if you know their proper name.
Which is actually rather a silly argument. If this was the case, Sauron
would have no problems using an 'S' rune symbol, rather than the 'Red
Eye' symbol. Oh well!
AC
>
>
>> A) Why does not Sauron use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt
>> or spoken?
>
> I got to this thread late, and haven't read all of it yet, so somebody has
> probably covered this already. When the Nazgul came to the Gate Of Erebor to
> speak to Dain, Sauron was spoken of as "Lord Sauron The Great". For somebody
> that does not allow his name to be spoken, this is a bit odd, don't you think?
Not to mention the Mouth of Sauron. I suspect certain very high ranking
servants were not bound by that commandment. The Nazgul, in particular,
were in many ways the most visible aspect of Sauron's will. I bet when one
of them used His name, it was darn near as frightening as Sauron himself.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Christopher Kreuzer
>> I got to this thread late, and haven't read all of it yet, so
>> somebody has probably covered this already. When the Nazgul came to
>> the Gate Of Erebor to speak to Dain, Sauron was spoken of as "Lord
>> Sauron The Great". For somebody that does not allow his name to be
>> spoken, this is a bit odd, don't you think?
Hang on, I missed the fact that you say it is a _Nazgul_ at Erebor. It
is most unlikely that the messenger sent to Dain was a Nazgul. The
Nazgul were his chief servants who inspired dreadful fear. They had not
yet come forth from Mordor and Dol Guldur. The Erebor messenger is most
likely to be a mortal Man, like the Mouth of Sauron.
Igenlode Wordsmith
> Hashemon Urtasman <no...@nospam.org> wrote in message news:<HcMDc.575666$Ar.5...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
[snip]
> > Aragorn praises Boromir, who was in despair for what he did
> > to Frodo. Aragorn informs him that he has really "conquered" (himself),
> > and few had gained such a victory (over themselves.)
>
> Yes, that is how I read it too. But IMO it is ambiguously worded. One
> could argue even that 'few had gained such a victory over so many
> orcs'.
>
The latter is how I always read it, from the context: "few have gained
such a victory" would be a strange response to "I tried to take the
Ring from Frodo" (and failed only because Frodo escaped and fled, not
because of any self-victory at the time - while Aragorn does not know
this, he can guess at it pretty shrewdly from Boromir's earlier
account). As a riposte to "They have gone: the Halflings... I have
failed" it makes more sense. While we can interpret it perhaps as
*Tolkien* making a metaphorical statement about Boromir's struggle with
himself, from what is said I find it hard to imagine that the speaker,
Aragorn, had any such idea in mind.
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
loose (archaic): set free, unleash - lose: mislay, be defeated
Igenlode Wordsmith
> The Departure of Boromir
> Book III,
> Chapter 1
> The Two Towers
[snip]
> Other comments, go right ahead.
>
In Aragorn's song, what is meant by "the empty lands where no men are"
to the westward - not Dol Amroth and Belafalas, surely? Does he mean
across the Sea?
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
In Europe 100 miles is a long way; in America 100 years is a long time.
Igenlode Wordsmith
> If it was supposed to be spontaneous, it was very well done; on the other
> hand, perhaps they simply took an existing song and adapted it to the
> purpose. In either case, it was *not* a good time to stand around
> singing, and giving the Orcs even more of a head start than they
> already had.
I'm afraid that was my reaction; indeed, I get the impression here that
the delay (waste of time!) is almost deliberate, in order to put off the
evil hour of decision. "What is to be done now?"/"First we must tend
the fallen" "An evil choice is now before us!"/"Then let us do first
what we must do"[i.e. bury Boromir] "Let us bear Boromir away!"/"But
after that we must guess the riddles, if we are to choose our course
rightly"
With hindsight, and knowing that having failed to catch up the Orcs in
the first hours of pursuit they end up falling further and further
behind, one can't help seeing just *how much* time they waste at this
point. They don't just lay Boromir out in a decent and orderly fashion
with his defeated enemies at his feet, and leave him there (as they
could have done); they don't just bear him down to the River and let
him float away on the bier (as they could have done). They walk back
*a mile or more* to Parth Galen, where they left the boats, and then row
all the way back again - and then tow Boromir's boat all the way back
past 'the green sward of Parth Galen', apparently, before taking the
other channel down to the falls. And then they have to row back
*again*, against 'the swift-running channel', before they even start
tracking Frodo and Sam, come to a decision, and pack for the journey..!
No wonder the afternoon is fading before they even begin.
Of course, from Tolkien's point of view, if Aragorn *had* caught up
with the Orcs, Merry and Pippin would never have come to Fangorn and
the Ents would never have been 'roused'. So it was all Meant.
It's interesting to speculate just what would have happened if Aragorn
had been a bit quicker off the mark, though. If, for example, his party
had caught up with the Orcs in that first night. I think Eomer is
right; however mighty as warriors they might be, they couldn't have
hoped to destroy all the Orcs in open battle. So it would presumably
have been a matter of trying to slip the hobbits out of the Orc-camp
while generating some distraction :-)
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
The Yellow God forever gazes down
aelfwina
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2cJFc.3374$vt6.29...@news-text.cableinet.net...
"Like" the Mouth of Sauron? I've always thought it very likely *was* the
Mouth of Sauron.
Barbara
aelfwina
did pass between Boromir's death/Merry-Pippin's capture and the three
hunters setting out. That song really was a time waster!
Barbara
aelfwina
"Igenlode Wordsmith" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in
message news:200407040221...@riot.eu.org...
> On 28 Jun 2004 Hashemon Urtasman wrote:
>
> > The Departure of Boromir
> > Book III,
> > Chapter 1
> > The Two Towers
>
> [snip]
>
> > Other comments, go right ahead.
> >
> In Aragorn's song, what is meant by "the empty lands where no men are"
> to the westward - not Dol Amroth and Belafalas, surely? Does he mean
> across the Sea?
> --
I thought it referred to the empty lands through which they had passed on
their journey--Hollin and Eregion, etc.
Barbara
Ancalagon The Black
> Hang on, I missed the fact that you say it is a _Nazgul_ at Erebor. It
> is most unlikely that the messenger sent to Dain was a Nazgul. The
> Nazgul were his chief servants who inspired dreadful fear. They had not
> yet come forth from Mordor and Dol Guldur. The Erebor messenger is most
> likely to be a mortal Man, like the Mouth of Sauron.
If I remember the tale told at the Council Of Elrond, Gloin said of the
messenger (a black horseman), "his breath came like the hiss of snakes". This
is a little too similar to the description of the Nazgul that came to the Shire
and spoke with Farmer Maggot and Gaffer Gamgee, especially the conversation
overheard by Frodo before he left Bag End.
Also, from the descriptions given by the two Hobbits in question, they didn't
seem to be quaking with fear at the time of the encounter - although having
said that, Hobbits do tend to recover from such things rather quickly.
Of course it's not impossible that many of Sauron's servants hiss when they
speak. Also, is there a route that the Nazgul could have taken from Mordor,
Morgul or Dol Guldur that would allow them to pass through mostly desolate
lands before they came to the Lonely Mountain, thereby avoiding contact with
the living? I don't have a map of Middle Earth to hand, so I can't check this
out right now.
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Igenlode Wordsmith" wrote:
>> In Aragorn's song, what is meant by "the empty lands where no men
>> are" to the westward - not Dol Amroth and Belafalas, surely? Does he
>> mean across the Sea?
Dol Amroth and Belfalas are the _wrong_ side of the White Mountains, and
far _south_ of Minas Tirith. Boromir's journey took him north of the
White Mountains through southern Rohan, through the Gap of Rohan and
thence northwards to Imladris. Boromir said this a few chapters ago.
> I thought it referred to the empty lands through which they had
> passed on their journey--Hollin and Eregion, etc.
Agreed. Men call that land Hollin, it used to be called Eregion by the
Elves. They are just different names for the same place. Aragorn using
the plural 'lands' could still refer to just one region, or maybe
Dunland which appears to be a part of Enedwaith on the map. He
definitely means the part of the journey through Eriador, where the
kingdom of Arnor used to be, now largely depopulated by plague and war.
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> The Erebor messenger
>> is most likely to be a mortal Man, like the Mouth of Sauron.
>
> "Like" the Mouth of Sauron? I've always thought it very likely *was*
> the Mouth of Sauron.
I've thought that too, but I don't think we can say for sure. The Erebor
messenger hissed like snakes, and the Mouth of Sauron "recoiled" from
Gandalf. They are also both mounted on horses. They also both use
Sauron's name and call him Lord. So I agree that it is probably very
likely they are the same. Though Sauron must have had other servants who
could speak for him.
Christopher Kreuzer
>
>> Hang on, I missed the fact that you say it is a _Nazgul_ at Erebor.
>> It is most unlikely that the messenger sent to Dain was a Nazgul. The
>> Nazgul were his chief servants who inspired dreadful fear. They had
>> not yet come forth from Mordor and Dol Guldur. The Erebor messenger
>> is most likely to be a mortal Man, like the Mouth of Sauron.
>
> If I remember the tale told at the Council Of Elrond, Gloin said of
> the messenger (a black horseman), "his breath came like the hiss of
> snakes". This is a little too similar to the description of the
> Nazgul that came to the Shire and spoke with Farmer Maggot and Gaffer
> Gamgee, especially the conversation overheard by Frodo before he left
> Bag End.
Hmm. I'd forgotten that. I'm now forced to say that maybe this black
rider also wasn't a Nazgul! But I'm pretty sure it is. I had forgotten
this, and it seems like the Nazgul can cloak their fear and talk to men.
They certainly had to do so to speak to their spies, and they did
'speak' with Frodo at Weathertop. I believe Tolkien says in UT that this
Nazgul at Bag End is Khaműl, the second-most powerful Nazgul, chief of
Dol Guldur.
> Also, from the descriptions given by the two Hobbits in question,
> they didn't seem to be quaking with fear at the time of the encounter
> - although having said that, Hobbits do tend to recover from such
> things rather quickly.
>
> Of course it's not impossible that many of Sauron's servants hiss
> when they speak. Also, is there a route that the Nazgul could have
> taken from Mordor, Morgul or Dol Guldur that would allow them to pass
> through mostly desolate lands before they came to the Lonely
> Mountain, thereby avoiding contact with the living?
The lands about the Lonely Mountain seem to be fairly desolate, apart
from Dale and the Long Lake. I would have thought a messenger could just
go straight north from the Black Gate to Erebor, maybe swinging east and
approaching from the east.
Ancalagon The Black
>
> Hmm. I'd forgotten that. I'm now forced to say that maybe this black
> rider also wasn't a Nazgul! But I'm pretty sure it is. I had forgotten
> this, and it seems like the Nazgul can cloak their fear and talk to men.
I bet Sauron wished that they could cloak it completely, so that the likes of
Grip, Fang and Wolf wouldn't give the game away...;-)
> They certainly had to do so to speak to their spies, and they did
> 'speak' with Frodo at Weathertop. I believe Tolkien says in UT that this
> Nazgul at Bag End is Khamûl, the second-most powerful Nazgul, chief of
> Dol Guldur.
Of course, they wouldn't cloak it *too* well in such circumstances, just to keep
people in line.
Best,
--
Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband
ancalagon...@virgin.net
---- Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News----
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The Arcane Chas
after serious contemplation, Henriette <held...@hotmail.com> put finger
to keyboard and produced the following;
>I remember though, that a jewish
>aquintance I have says to never pronounce the name of God, nor write
>it. I forgot why.
"... in the old times ..... it was lawful for none but the High Priest
to pronounce the name of [God], nor him but once a year, when he alone
entered the Holy of Holies, and stood before the ark of the covenant to
make propitiation for the sins of Israel".
--
Cheers,
Chas.
"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination".
Belba Grubb from Stock
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
<space-saving snip>
> Even if you
>do look more closely at the point-of-views of Gimli and Legolas, all the
>textual evidence suggests that Legolas is speaking only to Aragorn.
I think so, too, especially since the Ranger was bent over and
weeping. He looked like he'd taken a physical hurt. And in a way
Aragorn was deeply hurt by Boromir's death -- witness the first thing
he says to Legolas in response to the Elf's remark.
This could be because, as he told Frodo up in Rivendell, he viewed
Boromir as a very valiant man, and everything he saw of Boromir during
the trip must have convinced him that this indeed would be a great
Captain of Gondor at his side when he took the throne. Boromir also
would have possibly smoothed things over with Denethor once the Heir
of Isildur reached Minas Tirith and made his claim known. Now the
future king was bereft of his great Captain, news of whose death he
would have to bring to Gondor, which would hardly endear him to
Denethor; he was shaken by his knowledge of how Boromir had almost
fallen to the Ring, and also the fellowship he had led was now
shattered, and the Ring-bearer and his companions were lost, to whom
Aragorn had once pledged, "if by life or death I can save you, I
will."
Enough to make a grown man cry....
Barb
_____
English-language blogs from Iraq by Iraqis:
Background article:
http://www.newhouse.com/archive/wylie063004.html
Sample blogs (URLs from the above article):
Where is Raed?, by Salam Pax: dear_raed.blogspot.com
Baghdad Burning, by River: riverbendblog.blogspot.com
A Family in Baghdad, by Faiza Jarrar: afamilyinbaghdad.blogspot.com
Healing Iraq, by Zeyad: healingiraq.blogspot.com
Iraq the Model, by Mohammed, Ali and Omar Fadhil: iraqthemodel.blogspot.com
Iraq at a Glance, by A.Y.S.: iraqataglance.blogspot.com
Kurdos World, by Kurdo: kurdo.blogspot.com
Hammorabi, by Sam: hammorabi.blogspot.com
The Mesopotamian, by Alaa: messopotamian.blogspot.com
Road of a Nation, by Sarmad: roadofanation.com/blog/
____