CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
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Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
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_____________________
"Hope oft deceives," says Eomer toward the end of this chapter in
which despair and hope struggle for mastery on the battlefield and in
men's hearts. Finally the embodiment of Hope arrives, unfurling his
royal standard for the first time and leading the gathered armies to a
hard-won and costly victory. Yet Eowyn, mastered by despair, has
suffered a deadly wound and is untouched by Hope's triumph, while all
alone a brave but very ill hobbit walks off the battlefield, following
the bier of his dead king through the rain and grey haze. And where
is Gandalf?
_____________________
CHAPTER SUMMARY :
Things start off on a dark note as the Witch King, "still in command,
wielding great powers," turns away from his confrontation with Gandalf
at the Gate and vanishes.
On the Pelennor Field Theoden and the men of his household, along with
Dernhelm and Merry, have outrun the rest of the Rohirrim. The
chieftain of the Haradrim sees this and attacks only to be charged by
Theoden and overthrown; the rest of the Haradrim cavalry flees. As
hope is running high at this new triumph the Witch King suddenly drops
down out of the sky, mounted on a fell beast. Snowmane, pierced by a
dart, falls on Theoden and the Lord of the Nazgul and his mount perch
on the dead horse's body over the mortally injured King of Rohan. All
of Theoden's men have either been slain or carried off by their
panicked horses, but Dernhelm and Merry are still there; Windfola
threw them and ran away. Merry is terrified in the Witch King's
presence, but wonder and courage stir in him when he sees that
Dernhelm is none other than Eowyn, beautiful and desperate, defying
the Witch King and refusing to let him touch her kin. The chief
Nazgul then attacks her, but she slays the fell beast, bringing the
Witch King crashing to the ground. Furious he rises and strikes her
shield with his mace, shattering it and breaking her arm, but before
he can strike the killing blow he stumbles forward, having been
stabbed by Merry. Merry calls out to her, and with her last strength
Eowyn stabs the Witch-King and then collapses on his mantle and
hauberk, all that remain of her vanquished enemy.
In the meantime Eomer has gathered the Rohirrim and now returns to the
King even as Prince Imrahil and his cavalry start to drive the enemy
away from the city's Gate. Theoden orders the standard to be given to
Eomer and hails him as king before dying. There is a moment of grief
and silence, but when the new King of Rohan sees the body of his
sister lying there he freaks out and leads the Rohirrim off in a
mighty death charge against the many foes still unfought in the
southern half of the field.
Merry remains with Theoden and Eowyn and the men of Theoden's
household, who pick up the two bodies and carry them in honor toward
the city, with Merry trailing behind. They meet Prince Imrahil and
the cavalry of Gondor on the way, and Imrahil discovers that Eowyn is
still alive and bids them hasten her in to the city. He then rides
out to help Eomer, who has ridden too deeply into the enemy ranks and
is now surrounded by the Haradrim as well as the reinforcements
Gothmog, the lieutenant of Morgul, has thrown into the battle.
Things are looking bad, and then all hope vanishes as the ships of the
Corsairs of Umbar are seen speeding up the River on the south wind.
In Minas Tirith alarm bells are rung and the retreat is sounded, but
the call can't be heard on the field because of the wind. From the
little hill on the field where he has chosen to make his last stand,
Eomer also sees the ships coming, but his mind is now clear again. He
laughs at despair as he rallies his men and lifts up his sword to defy
the oncoming Corsairs, but wonder takes him and he tosses up his sword
in great joy and sings as he catches it again. A mighty standard with
the tokens of Gondor and of Elendil is unfurled from the foremost
ship, and
Thus came Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elessar, Isildur's heir, out
of the paths of the Dead, borne upon a wind from the Sea to the
kingdom of Gondor; and the mirth of the Rohirrim was a torrent of
laughter and a flashing of swords, and the joy and wonder of the
City was a music of trumpets and a ringing of bells. But the
hosts of Mordor were seized with bewilderment, and a great
wizardry it seemed to them that their own ships should be filled
with their foes; and a black dread fell on them, knowing that the
tides of fate had turned against them and their doom was at hand.
The soldiers and allies of Mordor will find no hope, but among them
the Southrons and the Easterlings are grim fighters and "fierce in
despair" and make many last stands as they are hunted down all through
the day. Finally at day's end no living foe is left within the
circuit of the Rammas Echor. Aragorn, Eomer and Imrahil, "now weary
beyond joy or sorrow," ride back toward the Gate of the City, but many
others have fallen or are hurt or maimed.
Death in the morning and at day's ending
Lords took and lowly. Long now they sleep
Under grass in Gondor by the Great River.
Grey now as tears, gleaming silver,
Red then it rolled, roaring water:
Foam dyed with blood flamed at sunset;
As beacons mountains burned at evening;
Red fell the dew in Rammas Echor.
DISCUSSION:
The first few times through this work I skipped the poems, but then
this "Song of the Mounds of Mundberg" caught my eye and really sank
home. It embodies so well in poetry what JRRT has described in heroic
over-the-top prose earlier in the chapter. The two, prose and poetry,
complement each other perfectly. That's hard to explain, but that is
why this is my favorite chapter in the whole work.
Some points here have already been discussed in detail elsewhere (who
killed the Witch King, what happened to him afterward, what sort of
beast did he ride, Gothmog, etc.) and I'll move on other things, for
instance, the major circle that closes here: the whole story of Angmar
and Glorfindel's prophecy finally plays out, and there is present a
blade of Westernesse, "wrought…slowly in the North-kingdom when the
Dunedain were young." The whole North Kingdom saga seems to complete
itself here, and it happens before Aragorn arrives, not from the north
as we had expected, but as Elendil did, "borne upon a wind from the
Sea." Comments, thoughts on this?
Before he departs the Witch King makes a very specific and unpleasant
threat to Eowyn. It reminds me of something Frodo has felt (I don't
remember where it is described), a fear of the Eye seeking him out and
there being no refuge from it. What exactly can Sauron do to you? I
wouldn't want to end up in Mandos' houses of lamentations, but they
sound much better those of Sauron! And what is JRRT saying here about
that which is "beyond all darkness"? There certainly is no light
there, but we have had such a lot of descriptions of Evil in terms of
darkness up until now, I wonder where the author is heading with this:
perhaps preparing us for the plain of Gorgoroth?
Some structural comments. First, this being JRRT, he telegraphs the
happy ending here just as he did in "The Hobbit" in a couple of
places: here, he tells us that when it is all over (no more detail of
the future than that) men will come and bury Snowmane on the field
where he fell and set a stone over his grave in the languages of
Gondor and the Mark (not those of Mordor, note). Why does he do that?
From "On Fairy-stories," we know that he counts the happy ending as an
integral part of any tale of Faerie: is he maintaining the reader's
belief in his Secondary World here? Is he just giving the reader a
break from the intense pace and drama of the story in this chapter?
Or
There is also a foreshadowing of what will happen in front of the
Black Gate as the orcs and other "spooky" critters (specifically,
troll-men, Variags and orcs - this has probably been discussed
elsewhere but what is a Variag again?) are driven easily but the
various groups of Men resist and stand their ground and must be
defeated everywhere they resist. With a look toward the appendices,
this also gives us probably the clearest detail we are going to get of
what the kings of Gondor and Rohan will be spending a lot of time
doing after the war is over.
Comments about the make-up of the forces of Mordor here?
There is so much going on in this chapter, but if required to name the
chief characters I'd say Merry and Eomer. After the Witch King's fall
Merry just kind of pins the whole emotional story to the board and
keeps it from being blown up by all its power and action as he stands
there and events swirl around him, and then he leads us toward the
future by walking off the field "weary and full of pain," keeping us
aware that there is much, much more to be resolved than just this one
battle. If the first half of the chapter belongs to Merry, the second
half is Eomer's, so young and passionate and powerful. He is able to
gather the 5000-strong army of the Rohirrim after their charge and
subsequent dispersal during the horror of the Witch-King's arrival,
which is no small feat in itself. Then he infects everybody with his
mood, first the Rohirrim in the death charge, and later everybody on
the field when he tosses his sword up in the air and rejoices. He is
a very magnetic individual and a born leader. And in terms of the
struggle between hope and despair, while his sister has given in to
despair, he laughs at it and is rewarded by an early premonition
(*before* the standard is unfurled from the lead ship) of the arrival
of Hope. This is also perhaps a sign of the closeness there has
always been between Eomer and Aragorn since the moment they met -
Eomer just knows his friend has arrived to save the day.
Stars: What are the stars (gems) borne by Elladan and Elrohir, and are
they related at all to the Star of Elendil that Aragorn wears? This
is probably a very dumb question, but why does he wear the Star of
Elendil? Granted he's not king yet, but he will be and the crown is
the token of his kingship. What then is the meaning of the Star of
Elendil? This perhaps also has been discussed elsewhere, but I had to
ask.
Blades: The Morgul knife at Weathertop vanished in the light of dawn,
but the blade of Westernesse here smokes for a while and then is
consumed as Merry watches. Two different processes seem to be going
on here. Any more thoughts on "weapons magic"?
Not to go into a lot of tactical detail, but what is the best way to
tackle a mumak on the battlefield? Leading bowmen close in to shoot
at their eyes is fatal, after all.
Eowyn is very much a woman here, defending her kin and forbidding even
the chief of the Nazgul from touching him. JRRT would never have
gotten much into the "dumb blonde" jokes of today, I suspect (g). Her
eye is as sharp as her blade, for she knows the exact spot to aim for
in the creature's neck, and she is strong enough to kill it with just
one blow. Much is made of Eowyn's hair as she removes the Dernhelm
(as I think of it):
…the helm of her secrecy had fallen from her, and her bright
hair, released from its bonds, gleamed with pale gold upon her
shoulders.
It sounds like one major way she was recognized by Merry as a woman
was because her long hair was flowing loosely on her shoulders. I've
always thought of her wearing braids as the men do, and she is shown
that way in images people create of the encounter. It would seem on
further thought, however, that she rode into battle, anyway, with her
hair tucked up under the helm.
Your thoughts, comments, additions, corrections, and…?
Barb
Raven
news:la16u0td4ejjcmhie...@4ax.com...
> Before he departs the Witch King makes a very specific and unpleasant
> threat to Eowyn. It reminds me of something Frodo has felt (I don't
> remember where it is described), a fear of the Eye seeking him out and
> there being no refuge from it. What exactly can Sauron do to you?
There is a cultural background for the concept of the "evil eye". In
more than one tale you will find creatures that can kill you or turn you
into stone merely by looking at you. Especially if there is eye contact
between you and the monster. Medusa, Balor of the Evil Eye. Though in
Sauron's case I somehow doubt that you could turn his gaze upon himself with
a bathroom mirror or something ---
I take the Witch-king's threat to mean that she will not merely be killed
in body, but she will be held under Sauron's gaze, and he will shrivel and
torment her very soul and mind merely by gazing at her with all his malice.
> Not to go into a lot of tactical detail, but what is the best way to
> tackle a mumak on the battlefield? Leading bowmen close in to shoot
> at their eyes is fatal, after all.
Hamstring them from behind? Or frighten them with fire? The Romans used
the latter tactics against the elephants that Hannibal managed to get across
the Alps, IIRC, which the Karthaginians found rather unsportsmanlike.
Corvus.
Michael Ikeda
news:BAEEd.2784$0l....@news.get2net.dk:
> "Belba Grubb From Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> skrev i en
> meddelelse news:la16u0td4ejjcmhie...@4ax.com...
>
(snipped)
>
>> Not to go into a lot of tactical detail, but what is the best
>> way to tackle a mumak on the battlefield? Leading bowmen close
>> in to shoot at their eyes is fatal, after all.
>
> Hamstring them from behind? Or frighten them with fire? The
> Romans used
> the latter tactics against the elephants that Hannibal managed
> to get across the Alps, IIRC, which the Karthaginians found
> rather unsportsmanlike.
>
I suppose the answer "attack them with a bigger mumak" would be
considered cheating.
:)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Christopher Kreuzer
> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 5
> Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
<snip>
> "Hope oft deceives," says Eomer toward the end of this chapter in
> which despair and hope struggle for mastery on the battlefield and in
> men's hearts. Finally the embodiment of Hope arrives, unfurling his
> royal standard for the first time and leading the gathered armies to a
> hard-won and costly victory. Yet Eowyn, mastered by despair, has
> suffered a deadly wound and is untouched by Hope's triumph, while all
> alone a brave but very ill hobbit walks off the battlefield, following
> the bier of his dead king through the rain and grey haze. And where
> is Gandalf?
Lovely introduction!
> CHAPTER SUMMARY :
<snip most of very nice summary>
But I want to insert some quotes here, as you omitted what was said, and
they are my favorite lines!
> Dernhelm is none other than Eowyn, beautiful and desperate, defying
> the Witch King and refusing to let him touch her kin. The chief
> Nazgul then attacks her
And they both speak as well!
Eowyn: "Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in
peace!"
WK (cold voice): "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will
not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of
lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and
thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
Eowyn (draws sword): "Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
WK: "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
[Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel]
Eowyn: "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am,
Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if
you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if
you touch him."
[cue fight scene]
Adding a comment: the word 'dwimmerlaik' should probably be discussed
here, and maybe its relationship to the word 'dwimmer-crafty' that Eomer
uses to describe Saruman (when Eomer first meets Aragorn on the plains
of Rohan).
<snip>
> Imrahil discovers that Eowyn is still alive and bids them hasten
> her in to the city. He then rides out to help Eomer
On this re-reading, I was most impressed that Imrahil had been ready to
ride out and join the battle:
"...out of the City came all the strength of men that was in it, and the
silver swan of Dol Amroth was borne in the van, driving the enemy from
the Gate."
And then the bit from "And now the fighting waxed furious on the fields
of the Pelennor..." to "...and they [Aragorn and Eomer] rode back to
battle together", is an absolute joy to read.
<snip>
> DISCUSSION:
<snip>
> Aragorn arrives, not from the north
> as we had expected, but as Elendil did, "borne upon a wind from the
> Sea." Comments, thoughts on this?
Very appropriate and entirely intentional.
> Before he departs the Witch King makes a very specific and unpleasant
> threat to Eowyn.
"...thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked
to the Lidless Eye." (WK to Eowyn, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
> It reminds me of something Frodo has felt (I don't
> remember where it is described), a fear of the Eye seeking him out and
> there being no refuge from it.
Several quotes spring to mind:
"...far more he [Frodo] was troubled by the Eye [...] The Eye: that
horrible growing sense of a hostile will that strove with great power to
pierce all shadows of cloud, and earth, and flesh, and to see you: to
pin you under its deadly gaze, naked, immovable." (The Passage of the
Marshes)
And Frodo feels this again later, though it is arguable that he is
referring to the Ring, and not the Eye, but the point is the same:
"I am naked in the dark. Sam, and there is no veil between me and the
wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else
fades." (Mount Doom)
<snip>
> Stars: What are the stars (gems) borne by Elladan and Elrohir, and are
> they related at all to the Star of Elendil that Aragorn wears?
Not sure. Probably. They are elven-royalty after all, also descended
from Earendil (which the stars undoubtedly signify), and Arwen has stars
on her brow when she arrives in Minas Tirith (and when she first meets
Aragorn), though in her case it could be to do with the Evenstar
epithet. And Elrond wears a circlet of silver when we first see him in
Rivendell. Also, the captains of Elendil had stars (see the index entry
for 'star'), and this might signify the role of the sons of Elrond as
two of Aragorn's captains. But I prefer the 'elven-royalty' and
'descendents of Earendil' explanation.
> This is probably a very dumb question, but why does he wear the Star
of
> Elendil? Granted he's not king yet, but he will be and the crown is
> the token of his kingship. What then is the meaning of the Star of
> Elendil? This perhaps also has been discussed elsewhere, but I had to
> ask.
The LotR index entry for 'star' says that the Star of Elendil was made
of diamond and represented the Star of Earendil. It is part of the crown
jewels of the North Kingdom, and is also called the Elendilmir:
"[The kings of Arnor] wore no crown, but bore a single white gem, the
Elendilmir, Star of Elendil, bound on their brows with a silver fillet."
(Footnote 25, Appendix A)
The Elendilmir is also mentioned in the tale of the 'Disaster of the
Gladden Fields' in Unfinished Tales. That is a nice bit of backstory to
the Elendilmir, and will tell you about the history of it from Isildur
onwards.
It is also called 'the Star of the North Kingdom' and is referenced
twice, once after the battle: "...he did off the Star of the North
Kingdom and gave it to the keeping of the sons of Elrond."
And also when Aragorn is crowned, Faramir declares that he is:
"...bearer of the Star of the North..."
Also, Thorongil (Aragorn when he served Denethor's father) was known as
"the Eagle of the Star" and bore a silver star upon his cloak.
Finally, Sam is given the 'Star of the Dunedain' by Aragorn in S.R.
1436, though there is a note about this in UT as well (the Disaster of
the Gladden Fields bit).
<snip>
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Christopher Kreuzer
> "Belba Grubb From Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:la16u0td4ejjcmhie...@4ax.com...
>
>> Before he departs the Witch King makes a very specific and unpleasant
>> threat to Eowyn. It reminds me of something Frodo has felt (I don't
>> remember where it is described), a fear of the Eye seeking him out
>> and there being no refuge from it. What exactly can Sauron do to
>> you?
>
> There is a cultural background for the concept of the "evil eye".
> In more than one tale you will find creatures that can kill you or
> turn you into stone merely by looking at you.
And it is noticeable that both Eowyn and Merry avoid looking at the WK's
eyes:
"...she raised her shield against the horror of her enemy's eyes."
"The face of their enemy was not turned towards him, but still he hardly
dared to move, dreading lest the deadly eyes should fall on him."
Though the narrator seems to be oblivious to the effect... :-)
"...between rim and robe naught was there to see, save only a deadly
gleam of eyes [...] his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill."
Natman
This is one of my favorite scenes too. Reading it aloud gives me
goosebumps.
Dwimmerlaik means "sorcery-body" from the Old English "gedwimer" -
sorcery. I don't know the *exact* derivation of "laik" but the Dutch
word "lijk" (pronounced "like") and the OE word "lic" both mean body
or corpse. I think what Eowyn is shooting for is sorcery-corpse. A
colloquial English equivalent might be "zombie" .
TT Arvind
> Dwimmerlaik means "sorcery-body" from the Old English "gedwimer" -
> sorcery. I don't know the *exact* derivation of "laik" but the Dutch
> word "lijk" (pronounced "like") and the OE word "lic" both mean body
> or corpse. I think what Eowyn is shooting for is sorcery-corpse. A
> colloquial English equivalent might be "zombie" .
I would have thought it was rather a modernised form of Middle English
"dweomerlayk", which meant sorcery (from ME "dweomer", illussion and
"layk", play, related to the modern Norwegian "leik"). But I guess your
explanation fits better.
"Dweomercraft" is also found in Middle English, and it also means
sorcery ("dweomer" + "craft"), and I'm pretty sure that was the source
for Tolkien's "dwimmercrafty".
I rather like the way Tolkien inserts these old Anglo-Saxon derived
words into the speech of the Rohirrim.
--
Arvind
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
Troels Forchhammer
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
<snip>
> And it is noticeable that both Eowyn and Merry avoid looking at the
> WK's eyes:
>
> "...she raised her shield against the horror of her enemy's eyes."
>
> "The face of their enemy was not turned towards him, but still he
> hardly dared to move, dreading lest the deadly eyes should fall on
> him."
>
> Though the narrator seems to be oblivious to the effect... :-)
>
> "...between rim and robe naught was there to see, save only a deadly
> gleam of eyes [...] his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill."
Very nice catch! I was just about calling for the omniscient narrator
(the authorial commentator), but Gandalf looked at the Witch-king at the
ruined gate, and he probably didn't avert his eyes.
Éowyn probably also did note what was 'between rim and robe' -- why else
raise her shield against 'the horr of her enemy's eyes'?
--
Troels Forchhammer
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
- Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
TT Arvind
> Éowyn probably also did note what was 'between rim and robe' -- why else
> raise her shield against 'the horr of her enemy's eyes'?
I'd raise my shield too if the witchking's eyes looked like horrkaker
*shudder*
--
Arvind
Law of Probable Dispersal: Whatever it is that hits the fan will not be
evenly distributed.
Michael Ikeda
h...@rcn.net:
> "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote in
> news:BAEEd.2784$0l....@news.get2net.dk:
>
>> "Belba Grubb From Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> skrev i en
>> meddelelse news:la16u0td4ejjcmhie...@4ax.com...
>>
>
> (snipped)
>
>>
>>> Not to go into a lot of tactical detail, but what is the best
>>> way to tackle a mumak on the battlefield? Leading bowmen close
>>> in to shoot at their eyes is fatal, after all.
>>
>> Hamstring them from behind? Or frighten them with fire? The
>> Romans used
>> the latter tactics against the elephants that Hannibal managed
>> to get across the Alps, IIRC, which the Karthaginians found
>> rather unsportsmanlike.
>>
>
> I suppose the answer "attack them with a bigger mumak" would be
> considered cheating.
>
>:)
>
Seriously, though, Raven is on the right track. Research what
historical armies did against elephants and modify them for mumakil.
Morgil
> "Belba Grubb From Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:la16u0td4ejjcmhie...@4ax.com...
>>Not to go into a lot of tactical detail, but what is the best way to
>>tackle a mumak on the battlefield? Leading bowmen close in to shoot
>>at their eyes is fatal, after all.
>
>
> Hamstring them from behind? Or frighten them with fire? The Romans used
> the latter tactics against the elephants that Hannibal managed to get across
> the Alps, IIRC, which the Karthaginians found rather unsportsmanlike.
More likely that would be Pyrrhos of Epeiros, who attacked
Rome few years ahead of Carthagenians. He was a sporty sort
of fella, while Hannibal was much too much of a professional
to complain about something like that.
But against Mumaks - mice! Huge baskets of mice, catapulted
in front of them would drive them to panic, and they would
grab nearby soldiers and slam the mice with them, or climb
up to nerby trees.
Morgil
Christopher Kreuzer
> in <LrFEd.8114$GG1....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
> Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>>
>
> <snip>
>
>> And it is noticeable that both Eowyn and Merry avoid looking at the
>> WK's eyes:
>>
>> "...she raised her shield against the horror of her enemy's eyes."
>>
>> "The face of their enemy was not turned towards him, but still he
>> hardly dared to move, dreading lest the deadly eyes should fall on
>> him."
>>
>> Though the narrator seems to be oblivious to the effect... :-)
>>
>> "...between rim and robe naught was there to see, save only a deadly
>> gleam of eyes [...] his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill."
>
> Very nice catch! I was just about calling for the omniscient narrator
> (the authorial commentator), but Gandalf looked at the Witch-king at
> the ruined gate, and he probably didn't avert his eyes.
Actually, at the Gate of Minas Tirith, the narrator sees nothing. Only
the red glow of the fires in the background burning in the space between
crown and cloak (mantled shoulders):
"A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up [...] The
Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and
yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and
the mantled shoulders vast and dark." (The Siege of Gondor)
Though I agree, Gandalf would not need to avert his eyes.
> Éowyn probably also did note what was 'between rim and robe' -- why
> else raise her shield against 'the horror of her enemy's eyes'?
I assumed she actually _didn't_ see her enemy's eyes, and that is one
reason why she was not overcome. Much like Perseus with the gorgon
Medusa, she was sensible enough to avoid that deadly gaze. But I'm
probably reading too much into that sentence.
Actually, this is all academic anyway, as Eowyn's shield is shattered by
the WK, but she then sticks her sword into his face. I'm now having to
imagine how she does all that without looking at his eyes. Though his
shoulders were bowed by that point, and maybe Merry's sword thrust
extinguished his eyes?
Hmm.
Merry killed the WK because he cut the wires from the battery in the
WK's foot that powered the WK's eyes?
Maybe not. :-)
Christopher Kreuzer
> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 5
>> Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
<snip>
[Aragorn wears the Elendilmir into battle]
>> This is probably a very dumb question, but why does he wear the Star
>> of Elendil? Granted he's not king yet, but he will be and the crown
>> is the token of his kingship. What then is the meaning of the Star
>> of Elendil? This perhaps also has been discussed elsewhere, but I
>> had to ask.
<snip>
> Also, Thorongil (Aragorn when he served Denethor's father) was known
> as "the Eagle of the Star" and bore a silver star upon his cloak.
I forgot to say that this is highly unlikely to be the Elendilmir, which
might have been the impression I gave. Just a symbolic star to give
Denethor some food for thought. This bearing of a star though, makes me
think that Aragorn's sojourn as Thorongil was not really that secret. He
was essentially flaunting his ancestry to anyone who cared to think
about it.
> Finally, Sam is given the 'Star of the Dunedain' by Aragorn in S.R.
> 1436, though there is a note about this in UT as well (the Disaster of
> the Gladden Fields bit).
And having looked up the note (it's one of those footnotes again), it
says that this 'Star of the Dunedain' is also unlikely to be the real
Elendilmir, but just some symbolic thing. Aragorn wouldn't have given a
thing as ancient and revered as the Elendilmir to Sam.
Reverting to my speculation, maybe this 'Star of the Dunedain' was
similar to how Elendil's captains had stars (like a traditional award or
medal among the Dunedain), or maybe Aragorn even gave to Sam the star he
had as Thorongil?
Christopher Kreuzer
> Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
<snip>
> [a major circle] closes here: the whole story of Angmar
> and Glorfindel's prophecy finally plays out, and there is present a
> blade of Westernesse, "wrought slowly in the North-kingdom when
> the Dunedain were young." The whole North Kingdom saga seems
> to complete itself here, and it happens before Aragorn arrives, not
> from the north as we had expected, but as Elendil did, "borne upon a
> wind from the Sea." Comments, thoughts on this?
The circle may start to close with Merry stabbing the WK, but the
closure is not complete until Aragorn arrives at the battle.
> Thus came Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elessar, Isildur's heir, out
> of the paths of the Dead, borne upon a wind from the Sea to the
> kingdom of Gondor
[Aragorn wear the Elendilmir into battle - part 2]
"...before all went Aragorn with the Flame of the West, Anduril like a
new fire kindled, Narsil re-forged as deadly as of old: and upon his
brow was the Star of Elendil."
This is the Elendilmir, effectively the crown of the kings of Arnor (the
North Kingdom). So Aragorn arrives at the battle, unfurling a standard
with "the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years beyond
count" and bearing the Star of Elendil. He is arriving as the King of
Arnor (the North Kingdom) and coming to save Gondor (the South Kingdom)
from great peril.
Does this not parallel the arrival of Earnur in the North to save Arnor
from great peril? Admittedly, Earnur was not King of Gondor at the time,
and he actually arrived too late to save Arvedui, but he (and the Elves)
did defeat the armies of Angmar (led by the Witch-King).
But still, the North Kingdom symbolisms ('blade of Westernesse wrought
in the North-Kingdom' and 'Star of Elendil') are there, and the old
alliance is renewed.
Earnil (father of Earnur and King of Gondor) had said to Arvedui (last
King of Arnor): "I do not forget the loyalty of Arnor, nor deny our
kinship, nor wish that the realms of Elendil should be estranged. I will
send to you aid when you have need, so far as I am able." (Appendix A,
LotR)
And now Aragorn is bringing aid from the North (the Dunedain), though
this is actually a symbolic force as the main force is men from the
fiefs of the South. And unlike the last time, this time the kingdoms are
reunited.
John Jones
news:BAEEd.2784$0l....@news.get2net.dk...
> "Belba Grubb From Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:la16u0td4ejjcmhie...@4ax.com...
> > tackle a mumak on the battlefield? Leading bowmen close in to shoot
> > at their eyes is fatal, after all.
>
> Hamstring them from behind? Or frighten them with fire? The Romans
used
> the latter tactics against the elephants that Hannibal managed to get
across
> the Alps, IIRC, which the Karthaginians found rather unsportsmanlike.
>
It is perfectly possible to kill ordinary elephants with arrows just by
shooting them through the heart or lungs (though I wouldn't like to be
around if you don't kill then clean ... ). The mumakil are much bigger than
elephants, though, so I suppose that the archers found that the eyes were
the only vulnerable spots.
John Whistler
dwimmer : OE dwimor
Dwimor, dwimer, dwymer, es; n. An illusion, delusion, apparition,
phantom;
dwimmerlaik/dwimmerlock : ME dwimmerlaik, from dwimmer + -laik (liar,
deceiver; as in 'warlock')
Also Wormtongue (and Gandalf) refer to Lorien as "Dwimordene". "Dene"
is old English for "valley", so that would probably be "Valley of
Illusion".
Troels Forchhammer
Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> enriched us with:
>
> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 5
> Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
I feel almost like cheating -- answering the chapter introduction without
reading the other (longer) replies first ;-)
> "Hope oft deceives," says Eomer toward the end of this chapter in
> which despair and hope struggle for mastery on the battlefield and in
> men's hearts. Finally the embodiment of Hope arrives, unfurling his
> royal standard for the first time and leading the gathered armies to a
> hard-won and costly victory. Yet Eowyn, mastered by despair, has
> suffered a deadly wound and is untouched by Hope's triumph, while all
> alone a brave but very ill hobbit walks off the battlefield, following
> the bier of his dead king through the rain and grey haze. And where
> is Gandalf?
I couldn't bring myself to snip that -- very well written, indeed.
> CHAPTER SUMMARY :
<snip>
> Snowmane, pierced by a dart, falls on Theoden
Oh, shatterer of illusions!
By an immense exercise of wishful thinking and seeing what I wanted to
see, I have managed to convince myself that Snowmane reared in fright
because of the Witch-king. I've only believed that for little more than
half my life now, and then you shatter it ;-))
<snip>
> Merry calls out to her, and with her last strength Eowyn stabs the
> Witch-King and then collapses on his mantle and hauberk, all that
> remain of her vanquished enemy.
I'm a bit curious about the details of Éowyn's strike at the
Witch-king -- it seems to be the time for setting a few of my
misconceptions right ;-)
"[...] with her last strength she drove her sword between
crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her.
The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown
rolled away with a clang."
Does this imply that Éowyn stabs (a straight motion point first) at the
Witch-king ('between crown and mantle' would be in the face somewhere)?
Striking 'as the great shoulders bowed before her' has always made me
think that she slashed (swinging motion striking with the edge) at his
neck/backhead somewhere. With his shoulders bowed before her, striking
him from his front would be very awkward, I'd say, as it would mean that
she would have to strike from beneath him, though I suppose she may have
stabbed him in the neck -- the first line could evoke the image of Éowyn
holding the sword in two hands with the point down and driving it, 'with
her last strength', directly into the neck of the Witch-king.
So, how did Éowyn actually hit the With-kings -- lots of details, please;
they won't be gory anyway, as there is no blood spilled.
> In the meantime Eomer has gathered the Rohirrim and now returns to the
> King even as Prince Imrahil and his cavalry start to drive the enemy
> away from the city's Gate. Theoden orders the standard to be given to
> Eomer and hails him as king before dying.
A moment that invariably causes a lump in my thread and moisture in my
eyes.
"when the turn comes, a catch of the breath, a beat and lifting
of the heart, near (or indeed accompanied by) tears, as keen
as that given by any form of literary art, and having a
peculiar quality."
Indeed!
> There is a moment of grief
> and silence, but when the new King of Rohan sees the body of his
> sister lying there he freaks out and leads the Rohirrim off in a
> mighty death charge against the many foes still unfought in the
> southern half of the field.
"/Death/ they cried with one voice loud and terrible"
/The Battle of the Pelennor Fields/ is definitely one of my favourite
chapters. Not, as with other of my favourite chapters, because it
encourages thought and meditation (about Middle-earth of life in
general), but because of the stirring quality of the writing. I have to
wipe my eyes regularly while reading this chapter as it keeps giving me
that 'catch of the breath' that is, in Tolkien's opinion at least, 'the
mark of a good fairy-story'. I say without shame that he did, for me,
succeed beyond his own hopes.
<snip>
> Gothmog, the lieutenant of Morgul, has thrown into the battle.
Gothmog. Nazgûl, Orc, Black Numenórean or something viler?
I know it has been discussed more than once, so my basic question is just
if there is any evidence at all that pertains directly to this (not just
evidence about First Age Gothmog or Nazgûl and Orcs in Minas Morgul)?
<snip>
> DISCUSSION:
>
> The first few times through this work I skipped the poems, but then
> this "Song of the Mounds of Mundberg" caught my eye and really sank
> home. It embodies so well in poetry what JRRT has described in heroic
> over-the-top prose earlier in the chapter. The two, prose and poetry,
> complement each other perfectly. That's hard to explain, but that is
> why this is my favorite chapter in the whole work.
I don't know about 'favourite chapter in the whole work' -- that depends
much on my mood, sometimes this chapter and sometimes another. At some
times 'The Shadow of the Past' or 'The Council of Elrond' make for
favourite reading, while at others perhaps 'The Stairs of Cirith Ungol'
or the Mordor chapters, and at yet other times this chapter.
This chapter is, however, definitely the one that most often (and most
certainly) moves me to tears; that 'beat and lifting of the heart.'
> Some points here have already been discussed in detail elsewhere (who
> killed the Witch King, what happened to him afterward, what sort of
> beast did he ride, Gothmog, etc.) and I'll move on other things, for
> instance, the major circle that closes here:
> the whole story of Angmar and Glorfindel's prophecy finally plays out,
A mere millennium after Glorfindel's prophecy, and about 1700 years after
the establishment of the Witch-king's reign in Angmar.
> and there is present a blade of Westernesse, "wrought.slowly in the
> North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young."
Giving finally, though by proxy, the revenge over the ancient enemy to
the descendant of Arvedui.
> The whole North Kingdom saga seems to complete itself here,
Not quite, I'd say.
I don't think it is really complete until the Fourth Age when King
Elessar rebuilt Fornst Erain and took up the reign of the North Kingdom
as it were of old. Then is the circle complete -- Elessar, the descendant
of Elendil, is then High King over all the lands that were Elendil's
(except, of course, for Calenardhon).
> and it happens before Aragorn arrives, not from the north as we had
> expected, but as Elendil did, "borne upon a wind from the Sea."
Symbolism? ;-)
There have been some discussion at times about the various usages of
'heir of Elendil' and 'heir of Isildur' (and variations), but here, I
think we're treated indirectly to the author's comment -- Aragorn is
truly the heir of Elendil.
> Before he departs the Witch King makes a very specific and unpleasant
> threat to Eowyn.
It's . . . horrifying, creepy.
> It reminds me of something Frodo has felt (I don't remember where it
> is described), a fear of the Eye seeking him out and there being no
> refuge from it.
Later, I suspect, in VI,3 'Mount Doom':
"I am naked in the dark. Sam, and there is no veil between
me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my
waking eyes, and all else fades."
> What exactly can Sauron do to you?
I'm not sure that I'm really in the mood to contemplate that in detail --
or that I ever will be . . .
Recall also Pippin's descriptions, "Then he gloated over me. I felt I was
falling to pieces. No, no! I can't say any more."
And then we have the cases of Gollum (who wasn't broken completely) and
Thráin, who did not even remember his own name . . .
> I wouldn't want to end up in Mandos' houses of lamentations, but they
> sound much better those of Sauron!
Very nearly apples and oranges! One is for the ultimate betterment of
your soul, the other for the ultimate destruction of your soul.
> And what is JRRT saying here about that which is "beyond all
> darkness"?
Sauron, I suppose. The Darkness comes from Sauron, and behind the
darkness is the cause for the darkness, the Dark Lord himself on his dark
throne ("in the land of Mordor where the Shadows lie".
> There certainly is no light there,
No. Darkness is the absense of light -- evil is the absense of good.
Here, I think, we are introduced to the idea of something which is worse
than that -- a darkness which is something in itself, a palpable thing to
devour the light, a darkness that cannot be driven out by the
introduction of light.
I think I've seen references to Sauron claiming, to his subjects, that he
was Melkor, God or Middle-earth (I can't find the reference at the
moment) -- possibly we're seeing a vague echo of that idea here: Sauron
as a source of darkness and possessing of an internal Darkness that
cannot be driven out by any Light.
> but we have had such a lot of descriptions of Evil in terms of
> darkness up until now,
I suppose that this is partly because darkness is such an accepted
metaphor for evil (at least in western culture), and yet one that 'wears'
better -- 'evil' is still a strong word, which might lose potency when
used too often, darkness, however, derives its potency from our own
fright of the dark (and from the potency of evil), and so is less likely
to lose that potency.
> I wonder where the author is heading with this: perhaps preparing
> us for the plain of Gorgoroth?
The part about being 'thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless
Eye' surely ties in with Frodo's later statement to Sam as quoted above.
Both here and in his earlier confrontation with Gandalf I sense a
self-confidence in the Witch-king, which he didn't display earlier at
Weathertop and the Ford of Bruinen. At Weathertop Gandalf had kept all
nine Nazgûl at bay for an entire night, but here the Witch-king declares,
'This is my hour.' Surely this is a reflection of the 'added demonic
force' he was given there, put in command by Sauron (letter #210).
> Some structural comments. First, this being JRRT, he telegraphs the
> happy ending here
So he does. I can't say that I have been consciously aware of it before;
it is, of course, clear from the beginning that the ending will be happy,
but just what might come out of that ending -- which realms will stand
and which will fall, who of our heroes might die etc. is not clear. This,
at least, reveals that Gondor and Rohan will persist.
> Why does he do that?
> From "On Fairy-stories," we know that he counts the happy ending as an
> integral part of any tale of Faerie:
What he calls the 'eucatastrophe', "the sudden joyous 'turn'" -- "a
sudden and miraculous grace: never to be counted on to recur." My
impression, however, is not that he meant that the eucatastrophe should
be unexpected as such: the details of both how, where an when, of course,
shouldn't be predictable by the reader, but that the story will have a
happy ending must, since he thinks it the mark of a fairy-story, surely
be predictable by the reader. Thus I don't think that this comment
reveals more than what could be guessed from the mere fact that Tolkien
was writing a fairy-story.
> is he maintaining the reader's belief in his Secondary World here?
> Is he just giving the reader a break from the intense pace and drama
> of the story in this chapter?
Both, certainly. At least it has both effects on me. We have just been
through a very emotional passage here, and I, at least, have a need both
to catch my breath (and wipe my eyes) and to find some reassurance and
comfort.
At the same time it is part of that "literary pretence of historicity and
dependance on record" (letter #129) that he wanted to maintain.
> Or
Was something lost somewhere, or was this just a loose word that escaped
deletion? I get a feeling of interesting speculations lost to me ;-)
> There is also a foreshadowing of what will happen in front of the
> Black Gate
[how dark creatures react to opposition vs. the reaction of Men]
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'foreshadowing' in this context.
My impression is that there is a consistent portrayal of the behavioural
patterns of Orcs, Trolls etc. and Men. Clearly they behave similarly in
the face of defeat both at the Pelennor Fields and in front of the
Morannon, but I'm not sure that I'd call it 'foreshadowing' myself . . .
That Orcs behave in the same manner in the same kind of situation is not,
as I understand and use the word, foreshadowing, but rather part of the
'inner consistency of reality' that should be the aim of the sub-creator.
<snip>
--
Troels Forchhammer
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to
anger.
- Gildor Inglorion, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Larry Swain
Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>
>>Merry calls out to her, and with her last strength Eowyn stabs the
>>Witch-King and then collapses on his mantle and hauberk, all that
>>remain of her vanquished enemy.
>
>
> I'm a bit curious about the details of Éowyn's strike at the
> Witch-king -- it seems to be the time for setting a few of my
> misconceptions right ;-)
>
> "[...] with her last strength she drove her sword between
> crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her.
> The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown
> rolled away with a clang."
>
> Does this imply that Éowyn stabs (a straight motion point first) at the
> Witch-king ('between crown and mantle' would be in the face somewhere)?
> Striking 'as the great shoulders bowed before her' has always made me
> think that she slashed (swinging motion striking with the edge) at his
> neck/backhead somewhere. With his shoulders bowed before her, striking
> him from his front would be very awkward, I'd say, as it would mean that
> she would have to strike from beneath him, though I suppose she may have
> stabbed him in the neck -- the first line could evoke the image of Éowyn
> holding the sword in two hands with the point down and driving it, 'with
> her last strength', directly into the neck of the Witch-king.
>
> So, how did Éowyn actually hit the With-kings -- lots of details, please;
> they won't be gory anyway, as there is no blood spilled.
Great chapter summary.
Turning to Troels, here's my image:
Merry stabs the ol' boy below the knee, he falls forward at least onto
his knees (perhaps all fours, but I think his knees), trying to keep it
together. Eowyn, noting that she isn't dead and her foe isn't moving,
uses her sword to get herself up, stands, takes sword, and with point
down, drives it with one hand (her other arm would have been broken by
the W-K's blow that smashed her shield and sent her to the ground), and
with her strength and weight forces it downward. So she's standing in
front of him and pushes the sword downward point first into his neck area.
Natman
The verb "drove" certainly implies a straight thrust rather than a
swing. Remember at this point Eowyn is exhausted and has a broken arm.
A one handed thrust with her body weight behind it seems far easier
and less painful than a one handed swing, which would cause her to
flail her broken arm around.
Raven
news:m5PFd.34778$k4.6...@news1.nokia.com...
> > Snowmane, pierced by a dart, falls on Theoden
> By an immense exercise of wishful thinking and seeing what I wanted to
> see, I have managed to convince myself that Snowmane reared in fright
> because of the Witch-king. I've only believed that for little more than
> half my life now, and then you shatter it ;-))
Both are true. "But Snowmane wild with terror stood up on high, fighting
in the air, and then with a great scream he crashed upon his side: a black
dart had pierced him. The king fell beneath him."
So first he rears in fright, and then he is shot. If he had been shot
while still on all fours, the king would very probably not have fallen
beneath him. Where the arrow comes from is not told. It could be the
Witch-king, or somehow commanded by him to one of his archers on the ground,
or one of his archers took heart at seeing him and decided to fight again,
targetting a suddenly very visible horse with a king on it, or it could even
have been a stray arrow.
> "[...] with her last strength she drove her sword between
> crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her.
> The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown
> rolled away with a clang."
> Does this imply that Éowyn stabs (a straight motion point first) at the
> Witch-king ('between crown and mantle' would be in the face somewhere)?
> Striking 'as the great shoulders bowed before her' has always made me
> think that she slashed (swinging motion striking with the edge) at his
> neck/backhead somewhere. With his shoulders bowed before her, striking
> him from his front would be very awkward, I'd say, as it would mean that
> she would have to strike from beneath him, though I suppose she may have
> stabbed him in the neck -- the first line could evoke the image of Éowyn
> holding the sword in two hands with the point down and driving it, 'with
> her last strength', directly into the neck of the Witch-king.
> So, how did Éowyn actually hit the With-kings -- lots of details, please;
> they won't be gory anyway, as there is no blood spilled.
I have always imagined that she stabbed him with the sword. She fell to
her knees as he shattered her shield and broke her left arm with his mace,
and when his second stroke went wide because he was wounded, she got back on
her feet and struck him in the head or neck. So much is described in the
book.
Try to imagine holding a sword in your hand. You hold it low, with the
arm pointing down; the sword points forwards from about your hip height.
This is natural, if you have just been suddenly weakened by a terrible blow.
Then you bend your wrist so that the sword point rises, as well as drawing
your elbow back so that the hand also rises, carrying the whole sword
upwards. This poises your sword-arm for a thrust. If now you thrust
forward at some bloody annoying witch-king who has been bothering your cat
or something, then the point of your sword will meet his body somewhere
between his abdomen and his rib cage, unless you stab upwards. In this case
you will strike him in the throat or under his chin, from below.
But if he is at the same time bending forward, you may catch him right in
the face, piercing it at about the same angle as if he had been standing up
and you had held your sword at shoulder height when you began your thrust.
If he stands at some distance from you, so that your elbow is at an angle of
somewhat more than 45 degrees when the sword-point reaches his face, you
will both have had time to build up the speed of the thrust and your arm
will be stronger to drive the thrust through. If your sword-point connects
with his face already when your hand is level with your kidney, you will
have less strength to push with - use your knowledge of sine functions for
why. :-)
I'm not saying that this is precisely how she did it. She might have
raised her sword to shoulder height before thrusting, and hitting him at a
good angle in his face as he bowed before her only because he was rather
taller than she, or because he hadn't in fact bowed very low yet.
> No. Darkness is the absense of light -- evil is the absense of good.
> Here, I think, we are introduced to the idea of something which is worse
> than that -- a darkness which is something in itself, a palpable thing to
> devour the light, a darkness that cannot be driven out by the
> introduction of light.
Regularly, darkness is the mere absence of light. You may shut light
out, causing darkness; you may not shut darkness out, causing light. You
may make a light in the darkness; you may not make a darkness in the light.
And anyway we know that light is an electromagnetic wave within a certain
frequency range - corresponding in vacuum to wavelengths between about 400
to 700 nanometers. Other wavelengths are not light, in normal usage of the
word, because we cannot see them. If these electromagnetic waves are
absent, we have darkness.
But I can't say that evil is the mere absence of good. You can say so if
you define evil as the absence of pity and compassion, of empathy with
others, in a being that has an intellect capable of hosting these things.
But evil can also be defined as the presence of something - namely the
presence in the mind of the concept that other people are mere tools to be
used or mere obstacles to be removed.
Some of the darknesses described by Tolkien are *not* the mere absence of
light. It is a dark light in itself, so to speak. Just as light may be
made in the dark, so can certain darknesses be made in the light in this
subcreation. The Witch-king causes such unlight when he descends upon
Théoden. Ungoliant did when she invaded Aman and attacked the two Trees.
> Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to
> anger.
> - Gildor Inglorion, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Nor in the affairs of ducks, for they are not so subtle and quack to
anger.
Brân.
Belba Grubb From Stock
wrote:
<snip>
>I suppose the answer "attack them with a bigger mumak" would be
>considered cheating.
Oh, I can see the idea appealing to Boromir. :-)
Barb
Belba Grubb From Stock
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 5
>> Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
>
><snip>
>
>> "Hope oft deceives," says Eomer toward the end of this chapter in
>> which despair and hope struggle for mastery on the battlefield and in
>> men's hearts. Finally the embodiment of Hope arrives, unfurling his
>> royal standard for the first time and leading the gathered armies to a
>> hard-won and costly victory. Yet Eowyn, mastered by despair, has
>> suffered a deadly wound and is untouched by Hope's triumph, while all
>> alone a brave but very ill hobbit walks off the battlefield, following
>> the bier of his dead king through the rain and grey haze. And where
>> is Gandalf?
>
>Lovely introduction!
Thanks -- it's a difficult chapter to summarize and for a while there
I was wondering why I'd ever wanted to try. Eomer's comment opened up
the way to the hope-despair theme, which was very helpful. The
author, while consciously shaping it up and directing things, must
have been in close to total flow here - the story was "writing
itself," I'll bet.
>
>> CHAPTER SUMMARY :
>
><snip most of very nice summary>
>
>But I want to insert some quotes here, as you omitted what was said, and
>they are my favorite lines!
>
>> Dernhelm is none other than Eowyn, beautiful and desperate, defying
>> the Witch King and refusing to let him touch her kin. The chief
>> Nazgul then attacks her
>
>And they both speak as well!
Yes, it's significant that this is the second time we have heard the
Nazgul voice now -- quite a change from the spooky but mysterious and
vaguely threatening Black Riders we saw in the Shire and at Weathertop
(where their threat, of course, was not vague at all). We're much
closer to Evil's face now but still only hearing its voice; there is a
way to go before we catch a swirling glimpse of the Eye, and the path
leads away from the heroic confrontation on the battlefield and into
the personal walk into dreary, deadly Mordor.
>
>Eowyn: "Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in
>peace!"
>
>WK (cold voice): "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will
>not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of
>lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and
>thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
>
>Eowyn (draws sword): "Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
>
>WK: "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
>
>[Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel]
>
>Eowyn: "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am,
>Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if
>you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if
>you touch him."
>
>[cue fight scene]
What a wonderful way to describe it -- JRRT wasn't a big fan of drama
(at least in terms of "On Fairy-stories") but this scene certainly
lends itself well to a script format.
>> Imrahil discovers that Eowyn is still alive and bids them hasten
>> her in to the city. He then rides out to help Eomer
>
>On this re-reading, I was most impressed that Imrahil had been ready to
>ride out and join the battle:
>
>"...out of the City came all the strength of men that was in it, and the
>silver swan of Dol Amroth was borne in the van, driving the enemy from
>the Gate."
Yet if he had been the one required to deal with Denthor's madness,
rather than Gandalf, this charge might never have come about. So
indirectly Gandalf might be said to have aided the battle.
Externally speaking, this is the first reference we've had to the Gate
since the start of the chapter, isn't it? We would expect to see
Gandalf coming out as he was last seen there, firmly established on
that immovable "rock," Shadowfax; once again the reader's curiosity is
piqued by the unexpected.
>
>And then the bit from "And now the fighting waxed furious on the fields
>of the Pelennor..." to "...and they [Aragorn and Eomer] rode back to
>battle together", is an absolute joy to read.
Yes!!! :-D
>> Before he departs the Witch King makes a very specific and unpleasant
>> threat to Eowyn.
>
>"...thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked
>to the Lidless Eye." (WK to Eowyn, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
>
>> It reminds me of something Frodo has felt (I don't
>> remember where it is described), a fear of the Eye seeking him out and
>> there being no refuge from it.
>
>Several quotes spring to mind:
>
>"...far more he [Frodo] was troubled by the Eye [...] The Eye: that
>horrible growing sense of a hostile will that strove with great power to
>pierce all shadows of cloud, and earth, and flesh, and to see you: to
>pin you under its deadly gaze, naked, immovable." (The Passage of the
>Marshes)
Yes, that's the quote I was thinking of. Thanks!
>> Stars: What are the stars (gems) borne by Elladan and Elrohir, and are
>> they related at all to the Star of Elendil that Aragorn wears?
>
>Not sure. Probably. They are elven-royalty after all, also descended
>from Earendil (which the stars undoubtedly signify), and Arwen has stars
>on her brow when she arrives in Minas Tirith (and when she first meets
>Aragorn), though in her case it could be to do with the Evenstar
>epithet. And Elrond wears a circlet of silver when we first see him in
>Rivendell.
His "star" perhaps is his wisdom.
> Also, the captains of Elendil had stars (see the index entry
>for 'star'), and this might signify the role of the sons of Elrond as
>two of Aragorn's captains. But I prefer the 'elven-royalty' and
>'descendents of Earendil' explanation.
That explanation works quite well.
Barb
Belba Grubb From Stock
<jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
>"Belba Grubb From Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> skrev i en meddelelse
>news:la16u0td4ejjcmhie...@4ax.com...
>
>> Before he departs the Witch King makes a very specific and unpleasant
>> threat to Eowyn. It reminds me of something Frodo has felt (I don't
>> remember where it is described), a fear of the Eye seeking him out and
>> there being no refuge from it. What exactly can Sauron do to you?
>
> There is a cultural background for the concept of the "evil eye". In
>more than one tale you will find creatures that can kill you or turn you
>into stone merely by looking at you. Especially if there is eye contact
>between you and the monster. Medusa, Balor of the Evil Eye. Though in
>Sauron's case I somehow doubt that you could turn his gaze upon himself with
>a bathroom mirror or something ---
> I take the Witch-king's threat to mean that she will not merely be killed
>in body, but she will be held under Sauron's gaze, and he will shrivel and
>torment her very soul and mind merely by gazing at her with all his malice.
Yes, that's probably it. And gloating. I suppose we were given a
hobbit's-eye view of at least a hint of it through Pippin's experience
with the Palantir.
Hmmm -- the more one thinks about it, the more amazement there is at
Gollum's survival of his captivity and torture in Mordor.
>
>> Not to go into a lot of tactical detail, but what is the best way to
>> tackle a mumak on the battlefield? Leading bowmen close in to shoot
>> at their eyes is fatal, after all.
>
> Hamstring them from behind? Or frighten them with fire? The Romans used
>the latter tactics against the elephants that Hannibal managed to get across
>the Alps, IIRC, which the Karthaginians found rather unsportsmanlike.
The Asians also used them a lot -- I don't know the details of their
war chronicles, other than that the favorite elephant of a very famous
Vietnamese general** got mired in a river and drowned, to the
general's great grief. Probably very similar tactics against them
were used.
The mumak's hide was close to impervious, I think, but now that you
mention fire I recall reading that many of them were driven into the
fire pits the enemy had dug on the field.
Barb
**Hung Nao Vuong, who was riding the elephant across the river on his
way to stop an advancing Mongolian army. He watched the elephant
drown, as there was nothing anybody could do to rescue it, and then
swore that he would not cross the river again until the Mongols were
defeated. They were defeated and on the way back Hung Nao Vuong had a
monument built on the bank at the site of the elephant's death, and I
believe that still stands today.
Belba Grubb From Stock
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>in <la16u0td4ejjcmhie...@4ax.com>,
>Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> enriched us with:
>>
>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 5
>> Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
>
>I feel almost like cheating -- answering the chapter introduction without
>reading the other (longer) replies first ;-)
>
>> "Hope oft deceives," says Eomer toward the end of this chapter in
>> which despair and hope struggle for mastery on the battlefield and in
>> men's hearts. Finally the embodiment of Hope arrives, unfurling his
>> royal standard for the first time and leading the gathered armies to a
>> hard-won and costly victory. Yet Eowyn, mastered by despair, has
>> suffered a deadly wound and is untouched by Hope's triumph, while all
>> alone a brave but very ill hobbit walks off the battlefield, following
>> the bier of his dead king through the rain and grey haze. And where
>> is Gandalf?
>
>I couldn't bring myself to snip that -- very well written, indeed.
Thank you, Troels. See note above re: difficulty in "getting a
handle" on this powerful chapter.
>
>> CHAPTER SUMMARY :
>
><snip>
>
>> Snowmane, pierced by a dart, falls on Theoden
>
>Oh, shatterer of illusions!
>
>By an immense exercise of wishful thinking and seeing what I wanted to
>see, I have managed to convince myself that Snowmane reared in fright
>because of the Witch-king. I've only believed that for little more than
>half my life now, and then you shatter it ;-))
:-D
Well, let's try a little epoxy for the illusions here: Snowmane's
vital organs wouldn't have been exposed to the dart had he not first
reared in fright at the Witch-king's arrival.
>> Merry calls out to her, and with her last strength Eowyn stabs the
>> Witch-King and then collapses on his mantle and hauberk, all that
>> remain of her vanquished enemy.
>
>I'm a bit curious about the details of Éowyn's strike at the
>Witch-king -- it seems to be the time for setting a few of my
>misconceptions right ;-)
>
> "[...] with her last strength she drove her sword between
> crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her.
> The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown
> rolled away with a clang."
>
>Does this imply that Éowyn stabs (a straight motion point first) at the
>Witch-king ('between crown and mantle' would be in the face somewhere)?
>Striking 'as the great shoulders bowed before her' has always made me
>think that she slashed (swinging motion striking with the edge) at his
>neck/backhead somewhere. With his shoulders bowed before her, striking
>him from his front would be very awkward, I'd say, as it would mean that
>she would have to strike from beneath him, though I suppose she may have
>stabbed him in the neck -- the first line could evoke the image of Éowyn
>holding the sword in two hands with the point down and driving it, 'with
>her last strength', directly into the neck of the Witch-king.
>
>So, how did Éowyn actually hit the With-kings -- lots of details, please;
>they won't be gory anyway, as there is no blood spilled.
"Drove" is in the "stab" family of meanings in this context, I think,
and while the argument that has been made here for a downward stab is
persuasive, my impression had always been that she was too weak and
the Witch-king not yet severely enough incapacitated for her to be
standing above him. Raven's mechanical analysis of her blow is very
good -- I would add to it only that the Witch-king's momentum in
falling forward may have significantly increased its effect.
(snip)
>> The whole North Kingdom saga seems to complete itself here,
>
>Not quite, I'd say.
>
>I don't think it is really complete until the Fourth Age when King
>Elessar rebuilt Fornst Erain and took up the reign of the North Kingdom
>as it were of old. Then is the circle complete -- Elessar, the descendant
>of Elendil, is then High King over all the lands that were Elendil's
>(except, of course, for Calenardhon).
That is a good point, as is Christopher's about it not closing in this
chapter until Aragorn's arrival. I still have this sense of a circle
closing right at this point, though perhaps it should be limited to
the past: a circle within circles, as it were. It sets the stage (in
the greater story of which the readers, at the time this work was
published, were unaware) for Aragorn's arrival in Gondor.
>> and it happens before Aragorn arrives, not from the north as we had
>> expected, but as Elendil did, "borne upon a wind from the Sea."
>
>Symbolism? ;-)
Hmm, am not sure that is the correct word for it, but close. Again, a
link to the past which the first readers in the public could not have
known about. These two points, perhaps, indicate just how much the
story was "writing itself" in this chapter.
>There have been some discussion at times about the various usages of
>'heir of Elendil' and 'heir of Isildur' (and variations), but here, I
>think we're treated indirectly to the author's comment -- Aragorn is
>truly the heir of Elendil.
>
>> Before he departs the Witch King makes a very specific and unpleasant
>> threat to Eowyn.
>
>It's . . . horrifying, creepy.
>
>> It reminds me of something Frodo has felt (I don't remember where it
>> is described), a fear of the Eye seeking him out and there being no
>> refuge from it.
>
>Later, I suspect, in VI,3 'Mount Doom':
>
> "I am naked in the dark. Sam, and there is no veil between
> me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my
> waking eyes, and all else fades."
>
>> What exactly can Sauron do to you?
>
>I'm not sure that I'm really in the mood to contemplate that in detail --
>or that I ever will be . . .
>
>Recall also Pippin's descriptions, "Then he gloated over me. I felt I was
>falling to pieces. No, no! I can't say any more."
JRRT was wise to follow Pippin's lead in all his descriptions of Evil
by not saying any more than he had to. It didn't turn off the reader
and yet also enhanced the effect.
>And then we have the cases of Gollum (who wasn't broken completely) and
>Thráin, who did not even remember his own name . . .
Ah, I had forgotten Thrain. Quite so.
>> I wouldn't want to end up in Mandos' houses of lamentations, but they
>> sound much better those of Sauron!
>
>Very nearly apples and oranges! One is for the ultimate betterment of
>your soul, the other for the ultimate destruction of your soul.
The halls of Mandos also expand, don't they? One imagines that those
of Sauron would get more and more cramped and claustrophobic -- all
part of the torture, of course.
(snip)
>> I wonder where the author is heading with this: perhaps preparing
>> us for the plain of Gorgoroth?
>
>The part about being 'thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless
>Eye' surely ties in with Frodo's later statement to Sam as quoted above.
The author's consistency all across this huge work is truly amazing.
>Both here and in his earlier confrontation with Gandalf I sense a
>self-confidence in the Witch-king, which he didn't display earlier at
>Weathertop and the Ford of Bruinen. At Weathertop Gandalf had kept all
>nine Nazgűl at bay for an entire night, but here the Witch-king declares,
>'This is my hour.' Surely this is a reflection of the 'added demonic
>force' he was given there, put in command by Sauron (letter #210).
That would explain the two confrontations with Gandalf. At the Ford,
though, he was self-confident enough to silence Frodo and affect his
heart, as well as break the hobbit's sword, just by raising his hand.
>> Some structural comments. First, this being JRRT, he telegraphs the
>> happy ending here
>
>So he does. I can't say that I have been consciously aware of it before;
>it is, of course, clear from the beginning that the ending will be happy,
>but just what might come out of that ending -- which realms will stand
>and which will fall, who of our heroes might die etc. is not clear. This,
>at least, reveals that Gondor and Rohan will persist.
I never noticed it either until doing this summary. JRRT had a very
good understanding of the power of simple words used appropriately in
a fairy tale. He had referred in "On Fairy-stories" to formulaic
beginnings and endings as frames, as well as serving as a "sharp cut
in the endless tapestry" of the World of Story; here perhaps he is
working a variation of that in the middle of the story to produce "at
a stroke the sense of a great uncharted world of time." Why? Because
it is artistic.
"When all was over" is as elegant and evocative as "once upon a time"
(which JRRT had also worked with earlier in the story through Bilbo
and his book).
>> Or
>
>
>Was something lost somewhere, or was this just a loose word that escaped
>deletion? I get a feeling of interesting speculations lost to me ;-)
A confession: I did it by accident in an earlier chapter summary quite
a while ago, and it seemed to spur people to come up with their own
thoughts and comments. When done intentionally, though, it doesn't
seem to be as effective. ;-)
>> There is also a foreshadowing of what will happen in front of the
>> Black Gate
>[how dark creatures react to opposition vs. the reaction of Men]
>
>I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'foreshadowing' in this context.
>My impression is that there is a consistent portrayal of the behavioural
>patterns of Orcs, Trolls etc. and Men. Clearly they behave similarly in
>the face of defeat both at the Pelennor Fields and in front of the
>Morannon, but I'm not sure that I'd call it 'foreshadowing' myself . . .
>
>That Orcs behave in the same manner in the same kind of situation is not,
>as I understand and use the word, foreshadowing, but rather part of the
>'inner consistency of reality' that should be the aim of the sub-creator.
When writing a story you have to do both, of course. But I should
probably hold off on detailed discussion of that until "The Field of
Cormallen."
Barb
Belba Grubb From Stock
<jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
(snip)
>> No. Darkness is the absense of light -- evil is the absense of good.
>> Here, I think, we are introduced to the idea of something which is worse
>> than that -- a darkness which is something in itself, a palpable thing to
>> devour the light, a darkness that cannot be driven out by the
>> introduction of light.
>
> Regularly, darkness is the mere absence of light. You may shut light
>out, causing darkness; you may not shut darkness out, causing light. You
>may make a light in the darkness; you may not make a darkness in the light.
Well, there is also Dark Sucker Theory:
http://paul.merton.ox.ac.uk/science/darksucker.html
But I digress. ;^)
> But I can't say that evil is the mere absence of good. You can say so if
>you define evil as the absence of pity and compassion, of empathy with
>others, in a being that has an intellect capable of hosting these things.
>But evil can also be defined as the presence of something - namely the
>presence in the mind of the concept that other people are mere tools to be
>used or mere obstacles to be removed.
:-)
> Some of the darknesses described by Tolkien are *not* the mere absence of
>light. It is a dark light in itself, so to speak. Just as light may be
>made in the dark, so can certain darknesses be made in the light in this
>subcreation. The Witch-king causes such unlight when he descends upon
>Théoden. Ungoliant did when she invaded Aman and attacked the two Trees.
Well said! This clearly suits the mental impression I have of the
Witch-king's description of 'beyond darkness" and is quite consistent
with this subcreation.
>
>> Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to
>> anger.
>> - Gildor Inglorion, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
>
> Nor in the affairs of ducks, for they are not so subtle and quack to
>anger.
ROTFL! Again a digression, but I know of a dachsund who would agree
with you -- said dog, belonging to a friend's brother, had a very
unpleasant experience with ducks and came out the loser. Now I know
why. (BG)
Barb
R. Dan Henry
<jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
>"Belba Grubb From Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> skrev i en meddelelse
>news:la16u0td4ejjcmhie...@4ax.com...
>
>> Before he departs the Witch King makes a very specific and unpleasant
>> threat to Eowyn. It reminds me of something Frodo has felt (I don't
>> remember where it is described), a fear of the Eye seeking him out and
>> there being no refuge from it. What exactly can Sauron do to you?
>
> There is a cultural background for the concept of the "evil eye". In
>more than one tale you will find creatures that can kill you or turn you
>into stone merely by looking at you. Especially if there is eye contact
>between you and the monster. Medusa, Balor of the Evil Eye. Though in
>Sauron's case I somehow doubt that you could turn his gaze upon himself with
>a bathroom mirror or something ---
Well, it might buy you some time to run away why he was busy laughing
at your stupid gimmick.
> I take the Witch-king's threat to mean that she will not merely be killed
>in body, but she will be held under Sauron's gaze, and he will shrivel and
>torment her very soul and mind merely by gazing at her with all his malice.
Sounds good. Well, not good, but right.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<jo...@jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>It is perfectly possible to kill ordinary elephants with arrows just by
>shooting them through the heart or lungs (though I wouldn't like to be
>around if you don't kill then clean ... ). The mumakil are much bigger than
>elephants, though, so I suppose that the archers found that the eyes were
>the only vulnerable spots.
Or, as often happens in real life, they were using a suboptimal
strategy when faced with an unfamiliar situation. If Denethor had
still been in command, he might have been able to provide pointers
based on past battles involving mumakil, and perhaps Faramir or
Gandalf would have stumbled across some mentions in their own reading.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
R. Dan Henry
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>Does this imply that Éowyn stabs (a straight motion point first) at the
>Witch-king ('between crown and mantle' would be in the face somewhere)?
Yes.
I would say a simple forward thrust. The Witch-King was likely taller
enough than Eowyn that when she rose to her feet and he was on his
knees, his head and throat were at a very convenient height, too. So a
thrust, ending with the sword-arm fully extended and the shoulder
forward, having thrown the weight of her shoulder behind the blow,
with the sword about level and at shoulder height for her, penetrating
the head or neck of the wraith completely.
>Gothmog. Nazgűl, Orc, Black Numenórean or something viler?
I can't see it being a human's name, especially the Nazgul, from far
earlier times. Naming your kid after a Balrog seems more a Creature of
Darkness sort of thing. I'll go with Orc or something viler.
>Both here and in his earlier confrontation with Gandalf I sense a
>self-confidence in the Witch-king, which he didn't display earlier at
>Weathertop and the Ford of Bruinen. At Weathertop Gandalf had kept all
>nine Nazgűl at bay for an entire night, but here the Witch-king declares,
>'This is my hour.' Surely this is a reflection of the 'added demonic
>force' he was given there, put in command by Sauron (letter #210).
At Weathertop, the Nazgul may well have been holding back, feeling
Gandalf out rather than risking a fully-pressed attack. After all,
once they determined that the Ring was not there, it was really a
sideshow. Their mission was to get the Ring, with as little fuss and
attention as possible. The fight at Weathertop may have been in
anticipation of a later, final encounter. If so, the Witch-King's
judgment was based on experience with Gandalf the Grey and the fight
with Gandalf the White would likely have surprised him.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
>"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> skrev i en meddelelse
>news:m5PFd.34778$k4.6...@news1.nokia.com...
>
>> > Snowmane, pierced by a dart, falls on Theoden
>
>> By an immense exercise of wishful thinking and seeing what I wanted to
>> see, I have managed to convince myself that Snowmane reared in fright
>> because of the Witch-king. I've only believed that for little more than
>> half my life now, and then you shatter it ;-))
>
> Both are true. "But Snowmane wild with terror stood up on high, fighting
>in the air, and then with a great scream he crashed upon his side: a black
>dart had pierced him. The king fell beneath him."
> So first he rears in fright, and then he is shot. If he had been shot
>while still on all fours, the king would very probably not have fallen
>beneath him.
Yes, I think both factors are important. As a trained mounted warrior,
Theoden would have been taught to avoid injury if his horse was killed
under him (a fairly frequent occurrence, as horses are large targets
and rarely as well armored as the rider). But with Snowmane rearing in
panic, Theoden would have been focused on trying to get him under
control.
>Where the arrow comes from is not told. It could be the
>Witch-king, or somehow commanded by him to one of his archers on the ground,
>or one of his archers took heart at seeing him and decided to fight again,
>targetting a suddenly very visible horse with a king on it, or it could even
>have been a stray arrow.
I think, however, it is the Nazgul. Faramir, too, was pierced by a
"dart" and I don't recall any other "darts" mentioned.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Michael Ikeda
news:al9ju0dsvpepmvnaq...@4ax.com:
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 04:15:33 +0100, "Raven"
> <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
>
(snipped)
>
>>Where the arrow comes from is not told. It could be the
>>Witch-king, or somehow commanded by him to one of his archers on
>>the ground, or one of his archers took heart at seeing him and
>>decided to fight again, targetting a suddenly very visible horse
>>with a king on it, or it could even have been a stray arrow.
>
> I think, however, it is the Nazgul. Faramir, too, was pierced by
> a "dart" and I don't recall any other "darts" mentioned.
>
The "dart" that struck Faramir was apparently an ordinary arrow shot
by an ordinary soldier. In "The Houses of Healing", Aragorn said
that Faramir would have "died that night" if he had been stricken by
a "dart of the Nazgul". He then asks if anyone kept the arrow.
Imrahil replies that it wasn't kept, but he remembered it being "just
such a dart as the Southrons use". He adds that he believed it came
from the Nazgul because otherwise there didn't seem to be any reason
for Faramir's fever and sickness.
Aragorn then explains that Faramir's illness was due to the influence
of the Nazgul (aggravated by other factors).
John Jones
news:al9ju0dsvpepmvnaq...@4ax.com...
Just another word for an arrow.
R. Dan Henry
<ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>On the Pelennor Field Theoden and the men of his household, along with
>Dernhelm and Merry, have outrun the rest of the Rohirrim.
Throughout much of the chapter, but especially in describing the
assault of the Rohirrim, there is a rhythm to the text much like that
of the alliterative verse of the Rohirrim. (There is also some
alliteration, too.) It helps add to the feel in several ways. Like a
piece of theme music, it gives a "Rohirric mood" to their battle
scenes. It has something of the pace of horses, too, and a sense of
the charge. Finally, it allows short, action-centric sentences,
without the loss of mood that a more modern Hemmingwayesque style
would. I've mostly been reading aloud to myself this time through and
this sort of thing becomes more obvious than if reading silently.
>The chieftain of the Haradrim
And we know he's evil, because his symbol is a black snake on a red
field.
>In the meantime Eomer has gathered the Rohirrim and now returns to the
>King even as Prince Imrahil and his cavalry start to drive the enemy
>away from the city's Gate. Theoden orders the standard to be given to
>Eomer and hails him as king before dying.
Very convenient in a Shakespearean way that Theoden lasts just long
enough to say farewell to both Merry and Eomer. It doesn't bother me,
but it is mighty convenient.
>Merry remains with Theoden and Eowyn and the men of Theoden's
>household, who pick up the two bodies and carry them in honor toward
>the city, with Merry trailing behind. They meet Prince Imrahil and
>the cavalry of Gondor on the way, and Imrahil discovers that Eowyn is
>still alive and bids them hasten her in to the city. He then rides
>out to help Eomer
Imrahil only gets a little space in this chapter, but he uses it to
good effect. Plus his symbol is a swan, so you know he's a good guy
who lives near water.
>Things are looking bad, and then all hope vanishes as the ships of the
>Corsairs of Umbar are seen speeding up the River on the south wind.
If it weren't explicitly stated otherwise (the wind brings a break in
the Darkness prior to schedule), I'd have thought Sauron planned the
weather this way, to bring *his* force up the Anduin. I figure once
you set weather in motion, it isn't something that could be changed
instantly. Would have been another nice case of evil shooting itself
in the foot, but unfortunately, the text doesn't support this idea.
So, action of the Valar?
>Eomer also sees the ships coming, but his mind is now clear again. He
>laughs at despair as he rallies his men and lifts up his sword to defy
>the oncoming Corsairs, but wonder takes him and he tosses up his sword
>in great joy and sings as he catches it again.
Is juggling really appropriate battlefield behavior?
>DISCUSSION:
>
>The first few times through this work I skipped the poems,
Boo!
>The two, prose and poetry, complement each other perfectly.
More than you may have realized. See my comments above.
>Some points here have already been discussed in detail elsewhere (who
>killed the Witch King,
Eowyn, but with a major assist from Merry and the barrow blade,
vengeance of the North Kingdom come round at last. [Not just the
sword, but Merry, too -- the Shire is the last surviving state which
was under the King.]
>what happened to him afterward,
He was never heard from again. His spirit *may* have been held in the
world until the destruction of the One, but after that, nothing could
have held him back from the Fate of Men.
>what sort of beast did he ride,
Pteryldoctyldon.
>Gothmog,
Orc or other unnatural creature.
>What exactly can Sauron do to you?
What can the Lidless Eye do? Well, picture the most intense staring
contest you've ever lost. Now, imagine that, only not being able to
look away. At all, ever.
>Some structural comments. First, this being JRRT, he telegraphs the
>happy ending here just as he did in "The Hobbit" in a couple of
>places: here, he tells us that when it is all over (no more detail of
>the future than that) men will come and bury Snowmane on the field
>where he fell and set a stone over his grave in the languages of
>Gondor and the Mark (not those of Mordor, note). Why does he do that?
>From "On Fairy-stories," we know that he counts the happy ending as an
>integral part of any tale of Faerie: is he maintaining the reader's
>belief in his Secondary World here? Is he just giving the reader a
>break from the intense pace and drama of the story in this chapter?
>Or
Or there wasn't any place this information could better be fit,
without tacking it on like an afterthought and anticlimax after the
battle.
>There is also a foreshadowing of what will happen in front of the
>Black Gate as the orcs and other "spooky" critters (specifically,
>troll-men, Variags and orcs - this has probably been discussed
>elsewhere but what is a Variag again?)
As stated elsewhere, consistent behavior isn't foreshadowing. It's
also the case that not all of those who panic are "spooky critters".
The "troll-men" seem to me to just be large black men, as seen by
biased enemy chroniclers. Variags are the people of Khand, southeast
of Mordor, and little is said of them in LotR (the two index entries
are for this chapter). While not specifically stated to be human, that
would seem to be the default assumption.
>Comments about the make-up of the forces of Mordor here?
There's a mix of diverse forces both from Mordor and from allied
states. Without strong central leadership, working together would be
very difficult. Who manages to make a stand may have as much to do
with who has a good command system and who does not. The orcs probably
haven't got anyone to tell them what to do after Gothmog, as there was
no expectation that the Witch-King could be eliminated.
>There is so much going on in this chapter, but if required to name the
>chief characters I'd say Merry and Eomer.
As far as who provides the viewpoint, I'd agree, although I'd say that
Theoden and Aragorn are the most dramatic movers of most of the
chapter, with Merry, Eowyn, and the Witch-King having a very big
scene.
>Blades: The Morgul knife at Weathertop vanished in the light of dawn,
>but the blade of Westernesse here smokes for a while and then is
>consumed as Merry watches. Two different processes seem to be going
>on here. Any more thoughts on "weapons magic"?
The Morgul knife melts because it is evil, I suppose, and so much of
the evil of Sauron cannot endure daylight. Or perhaps it is a design
feature, to prevent smarty-pants healers like Elrond from being able
to study it. Merry's sword dies because that happens to all blades
that pierce the Witch-King. Personally, I think it's a spell he placed
on himself, probably even before he became a wraith. Pretty cool
defense. If you get hurt, the enemy is disarmed. Eowyn's blade breaks
almost instantly. I think Merry's sword lasts longer because of its
strong spells.
>Not to go into a lot of tactical detail, but what is the best way to
>tackle a mumak on the battlefield? Leading bowmen close in to shoot
>at their eyes is fatal, after all.
Well, panicking them among their own troops is always fun, if you can
do it. If it were a cartoon battle, I'd use mice. In real life, I'd
try fire, but it seems the mumakil were trained to be pretty tolerant
of fire, given that there were fires all over the battlefield and no
sign of mumak problems.
Killing at range still seems like a good idea, but artillery would be
safer than archery.
>Your thoughts, comments, additions, corrections, and…?
There is little hint that Merry is as hurt as it will turn out to be.
We again see the good = flowering, evil = barrenness trope as
Snowmane's Howe is said to grow with plentiful grass (grass fed the
horse, now the horse feeds the grass), while "ever black and bare was
the ground where the beast was burned."
Merry get forgiven his disobedience as Theoden gets the first of his
two farewells. Sneaky Theoden, getting two final speeches, one to
Merry and then again to Eomer.
It is a bad day for banner-bearers.
We get a good taste of the thrill of battle and fey warrior glory, but
close with a solemn account of the cost. This is no glorification of
war; many are the dead and many have been named just so we have some
identification of them when they are counted among the dead. Theoden
may well have found peace and self-esteem in his charge, felling the
black serpent, but many young lives have been cut short.
"red fell the dew in Rammas Echor."
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
wrote:
>R. Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> wrote in
>news:al9ju0dsvpepmvnaq...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 04:15:33 +0100, "Raven"
>> <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
>>
>
>(snipped)
>
>>
>>>Where the arrow comes from is not told. It could be the
>>>Witch-king, or somehow commanded by him to one of his archers on
>>>the ground, or one of his archers took heart at seeing him and
>>>decided to fight again, targetting a suddenly very visible horse
>>>with a king on it, or it could even have been a stray arrow.
>>
>> I think, however, it is the Nazgul. Faramir, too, was pierced by
>> a "dart" and I don't recall any other "darts" mentioned.
>The "dart" that struck Faramir was apparently an ordinary arrow shot
>by an ordinary soldier.
Oops. Serves me right for not reading ahead. And my memories are a bit
rusty.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
Yes, I know, but it was the particular word choice I was pointing out
(while being wrong about Faramir's attacker).
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
aelfwina
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:54:41 -0600, Belba Grubb From Stock
> <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>
> >On the Pelennor Field Theoden and the men of his household, along with
> >Dernhelm and Merry, have outrun the rest of the Rohirrim.
>
> Throughout much of the chapter, but especially in describing the
> assault of the Rohirrim, there is a rhythm to the text much like that
> of the alliterative verse of the Rohirrim. (There is also some
> alliteration, too.) It helps add to the feel in several ways. Like a
> piece of theme music, it gives a "Rohirric mood" to their battle
> scenes. It has something of the pace of horses, too, and a sense of
> the charge. Finally, it allows short, action-centric sentences,
> without the loss of mood that a more modern Hemmingwayesque style
> would. I've mostly been reading aloud to myself this time through and
> this sort of thing becomes more obvious than if reading silently.
I remember, not my first reading, but when the book was still new to me
(second or third maybe) noticing the poetic rhythm of the prose. This is
not the only chapter he does this--remember Tom Bombadil? When he does do
it, it lends a certain something to the mood that a more prosiac style does
not.
>
> >The chieftain of the Haradrim
>
> And we know he's evil, because his symbol is a black snake on a red
> field.
Definitely a use of stereotype as a shortcut. Not every character gets a
personality, but it is an indication.
>
> >In the meantime Eomer has gathered the Rohirrim and now returns to the
> >King even as Prince Imrahil and his cavalry start to drive the enemy
> >away from the city's Gate. Theoden orders the standard to be given to
> >Eomer and hails him as king before dying.
>
> Very convenient in a Shakespearean way that Theoden lasts just long
> enough to say farewell to both Merry and Eomer. It doesn't bother me,
> but it is mighty convenient.
I wonder at his injuries. What kind would have been caused by having a
horse fall on one? And it's interesting in this light: a horse falling on
him kills a full grown warrior of Men, but a troll (lots bigger than a
horse) falling on a hobbit is not ultimately fatal. Hobbits really are
tough.
>
> >Merry remains with Theoden and Eowyn and the men of Theoden's
> >household, who pick up the two bodies and carry them in honor toward
> >the city, with Merry trailing behind. They meet Prince Imrahil and
> >the cavalry of Gondor on the way, and Imrahil discovers that Eowyn is
> >still alive and bids them hasten her in to the city. He then rides
> >out to help Eomer
>
> Imrahil only gets a little space in this chapter, but he uses it to
> good effect. Plus his symbol is a swan, so you know he's a good guy
> who lives near water.
It's funny, but the first time I read this, I expected Eowyn to fall in love
with Imrahil. I was a bit disappointed, actually that it turned out to be
Faramir instead.
>
> >Things are looking bad, and then all hope vanishes as the ships of the
> >Corsairs of Umbar are seen speeding up the River on the south wind.
>
> If it weren't explicitly stated otherwise (the wind brings a break in
> the Darkness prior to schedule), I'd have thought Sauron planned the
> weather this way, to bring *his* force up the Anduin. I figure once
> you set weather in motion, it isn't something that could be changed
> instantly. Would have been another nice case of evil shooting itself
> in the foot, but unfortunately, the text doesn't support this idea.
>
> So, action of the Valar?
Possibly a combination?
>
> >Eomer also sees the ships coming, but his mind is now clear again. He
> >laughs at despair as he rallies his men and lifts up his sword to defy
> >the oncoming Corsairs, but wonder takes him and he tosses up his sword
> >in great joy and sings as he catches it again.
>
> Is juggling really appropriate battlefield behavior?
>
> >DISCUSSION:
> >
> >The first few times through this work I skipped the poems,
>
> Boo!
>
> >The two, prose and poetry, complement each other perfectly.
>
> More than you may have realized. See my comments above.
>
> >Some points here have already been discussed in detail elsewhere (who
> >killed the Witch King,
>
> Eowyn, but with a major assist from Merry and the barrow blade,
> vengeance of the North Kingdom come round at last. [Not just the
> sword, but Merry, too -- the Shire is the last surviving state which
> was under the King.]
This is a very good point. And I think of the cry Merry made right after
the barrow-wight, about the "men of Carn Dum", and wonder if some sort of
geas or something was laid on him then? Other than that there is nothing to
indicate it, yet the thought remains in the back of my mind.
>
> >what happened to him afterward,
>
> He was never heard from again. His spirit *may* have been held in the
> world until the destruction of the One, but after that, nothing could
> have held him back from the Fate of Men.
>
> >what sort of beast did he ride,
>
> Pteryldoctyldon.
>
A fell one. Something Morgoth cooked up perhaps in his early experiments
before dragons?
> >Gothmog,
>
> Orc or other unnatural creature.
>
> >What exactly can Sauron do to you?
>
> What can the Lidless Eye do? Well, picture the most intense staring
> contest you've ever lost. Now, imagine that, only not being able to
> look away. At all, ever.
>
And the possessor of that eye gloating and reminding you without ceasing
that you have lost everything you ever were. Forever.
> >Some structural comments. First, this being JRRT, he telegraphs the
> >happy ending here just as he did in "The Hobbit" in a couple of
> >places: here, he tells us that when it is all over (no more detail of
> >the future than that) men will come and bury Snowmane on the field
> >where he fell and set a stone over his grave in the languages of
> >Gondor and the Mark (not those of Mordor, note). Why does he do that?
> >From "On Fairy-stories," we know that he counts the happy ending as an
> >integral part of any tale of Faerie: is he maintaining the reader's
> >belief in his Secondary World here? Is he just giving the reader a
> >break from the intense pace and drama of the story in this chapter?
> >Or
It is another way of lending verisimilitude to his "translator" conceit.
After all, if Sauron had won, no one would have been writing all this down
(at least not from the "good guys" POV. And the fact is that this does not
really jump out at one in the first reading, caught up in the feel of the
battle and its aftermath.
>
> Or there wasn't any place this information could better be fit,
> without tacking it on like an afterthought and anticlimax after the
> battle.
>
> >There is also a foreshadowing of what will happen in front of the
> >Black Gate as the orcs and other "spooky" critters (specifically,
> >troll-men, Variags and orcs - this has probably been discussed
> >elsewhere but what is a Variag again?)
>
> As stated elsewhere, consistent behavior isn't foreshadowing. It's
> also the case that not all of those who panic are "spooky critters".
> The "troll-men" seem to me to just be large black men, as seen by
> biased enemy chroniclers. Variags are the people of Khand, southeast
> of Mordor, and little is said of them in LotR (the two index entries
> are for this chapter). While not specifically stated to be human, that
> would seem to be the default assumption.
I thought "troll-men" might have been simply trolls that were bred to be
daylight resistant, and slightly more intelligent than your average
mountain- or cave-troll. They might have a slight more "manlike" appearance.
>
> >Comments about the make-up of the forces of Mordor here?
>
> There's a mix of diverse forces both from Mordor and from allied
> states. Without strong central leadership, working together would be
> very difficult. Who manages to make a stand may have as much to do
> with who has a good command system and who does not. The orcs probably
> haven't got anyone to tell them what to do after Gothmog, as there was
> no expectation that the Witch-King could be eliminated.
>
> >There is so much going on in this chapter, but if required to name the
> >chief characters I'd say Merry and Eomer.
>
> As far as who provides the viewpoint, I'd agree, although I'd say that
> Theoden and Aragorn are the most dramatic movers of most of the
> chapter, with Merry, Eowyn, and the Witch-King having a very big
> scene.
>
> >Blades: The Morgul knife at Weathertop vanished in the light of dawn,
> >but the blade of Westernesse here smokes for a while and then is
> >consumed as Merry watches. Two different processes seem to be going
> >on here. Any more thoughts on "weapons magic"?
>
> The Morgul knife melts because it is evil, I suppose, and so much of
> the evil of Sauron cannot endure daylight. Or perhaps it is a design
> feature, to prevent smarty-pants healers like Elrond from being able
> to study it.
I like that idea: the old "self-destruct to keep info out of enemy hands"
ploy.
Merry's sword dies because that happens to all blades
> that pierce the Witch-King. Personally, I think it's a spell he placed
> on himself, probably even before he became a wraith. Pretty cool
> defense. If you get hurt, the enemy is disarmed. Eowyn's blade breaks
> almost instantly. I think Merry's sword lasts longer because of its
> strong spells.
That's also the best explanation I've ever come up with for the different
reaction of the weapons.
>
> >Not to go into a lot of tactical detail, but what is the best way to
> >tackle a mumak on the battlefield? Leading bowmen close in to shoot
> >at their eyes is fatal, after all.
>
> Well, panicking them among their own troops is always fun, if you can
> do it. If it were a cartoon battle, I'd use mice. In real life, I'd
> try fire, but it seems the mumakil were trained to be pretty tolerant
> of fire, given that there were fires all over the battlefield and no
> sign of mumak problems.
>
> Killing at range still seems like a good idea, but artillery would be
> safer than archery.
>
> >Your thoughts, comments, additions, corrections, and.?
>
> There is little hint that Merry is as hurt as it will turn out to be.
Yes, it seems that he at first is somewhat resistant to the harm he took.
Another example of hobbity toughness?
>
> We again see the good = flowering, evil = barrenness trope as
> Snowmane's Howe is said to grow with plentiful grass (grass fed the
> horse, now the horse feeds the grass), while "ever black and bare was
> the ground where the beast was burned."
>
> Merry get forgiven his disobedience as Theoden gets the first of his
> two farewells. Sneaky Theoden, getting two final speeches, one to
> Merry and then again to Eomer.
It's only fair. But I still wonder about the injuries. It's possible that
they were something that with immediate medical help (rather than lying for
some good while under the horse while the rest of the battle raged) might
have been survivable.
>
> It is a bad day for banner-bearers.
*snort* I wonder if they wore red shirts? Ooops, wrong fandom....LOL!
Troels Forchhammer
Raven <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> enriched us with:
>
> "Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:m5PFd.34778$k4.6...@news1.nokia.com...
>>
<snip Snowmane's death>
To you and others, thanks -- it's good to know that my impression wasn't
entirely wrong ;-)
>> So, how did Éowyn actually hit the With-kings -- lots of details,
>> please; they won't be gory anyway, as there is no blood spilled.
>
> I have always imagined that she stabbed him with the sword.
[...]
> I'm not saying that this is precisely how she did it. She might have
> raised her sword to shoulder height before thrusting, and hitting him
> at a good angle in his face as he bowed before her only because he
> was rather taller than she, or because he hadn't in fact bowed very
> low yet.
Thanks. One small detail, however. Éowyn is clearly standing over her
enemy when she strikes, as she immediately 'fell forward upon her fallen
foe'. The preceding passage describes how she rises, 'tottering,
struggling up' which doesn't lend any reserve of strength or balance to
strike, so I think that her last strike 'with her last strength she drove
her sword between crown and mantle' would be a downward stab, using both
her last strength and her weight to drive her sword, point first, through
his neck or back of the head.
>> No. Darkness is the absense of light -- evil is the absense of good.
>> Here, I think, we are introduced to the idea of something which is
>> worse than that -- a darkness which is something in itself, a
>> palpable thing to devour the light, a darkness that cannot be driven
>> out by the introduction of light.
[...]
> But I can't say that evil is the mere absence of good.
I was thinking, among other things, of the passage in Letter #183 where
Tolkien stated, "In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not
think there is such a thing, since that is Zero." The picture may be an
over-simplification, but within the context, I think it describes well
what I intended.
> You can say so if you define evil as the absence of pity and
> compassion, of empathy with others, in a being that has an intellect
> capable of hosting these things.
That, and other virtues, but yes -- sin is essentially the absence of
virtues.
> But evil can also be defined as the presence of something - namely
> the presence in the mind of the concept that other people are mere
> tools to be used or mere obstacles to be removed.
In the, admittedly over-simplified, picture I presented, that would
simply be what was left when the virtues had been lost.
> Some of the darknesses described by Tolkien are *not* the mere
> absence of light. It is a dark light in itself, so to speak.
Precisely. But such evils, 'dark lights' or 'unlights' are rare, and in
LotR limited to Sauron, Shelob and possibly the Balrog. Even the
Witch-king does not qualify, IMO, as he is more characterised by the
absence of Free Will and virtues. He may extend Sauron's darkness and
carry it with him, but he is not, IMO, a source of an independant
darkness.
> Just as light may be made in the dark, so can certain darknesses be
> made in the light in this subcreation.
Exactly.
Such 'unlights' possess the ability to quell the light in others, turning
them to darkness (or madness or an enslavement of the will).
> The Witch-king causes such unlight when he descends upon Théoden.
Only as an extension of Sauron's unlight, 'There, put in command by
Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.' (Letter #210). It is
possibly a matter of semantics, but I don't see the Witch-king's
abilities in this direction as other than an extension and continuation
of Sauron's.
> Ungoliant did when she invaded Aman and attacked the two Trees.
Aye -- and that is probably one of the best examples in the whole
legendarium, because here the unlight is nearly palpable and very
visible.
>> Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and
>> quick to anger.
>> - Gildor Inglorion, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
>
> Nor in the affairs of ducks, for they are not so subtle and quack
> to anger.
Or ravens, since they are quoth to anger? ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would
be a merrier world.
- Thorin Oakenshield, 'The Hobbit' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Tar-Elenion
says...
>
> "R. Dan Henry" <danh...@inreach.com> wrote in message
> news:lrdlu0pb387sangcg...@4ax.com...
> > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:54:41 -0600, Belba Grubb From Stock
> > <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
> > >There is also a foreshadowing of what will happen in front of the
> > >Black Gate as the orcs and other "spooky" critters (specifically,
> > >troll-men, Variags and orcs - this has probably been discussed
> > >elsewhere but what is a Variag again?)
> >
> > As stated elsewhere, consistent behavior isn't foreshadowing. It's
> > also the case that not all of those who panic are "spooky critters".
> > The "troll-men" seem to me to just be large black men, as seen by
> > biased enemy chroniclers. Variags are the people of Khand, southeast
> > of Mordor, and little is said of them in LotR (the two index entries
> > are for this chapter). While not specifically stated to be human, that
> > would seem to be the default assumption.
>
> I thought "troll-men" might have been simply trolls that were bred to be
> daylight resistant, and slightly more intelligent than your average
> mountain- or cave-troll. They might have a slight more "manlike" appearance.
They are earlier difined as men:
"And if the Rohirrim at their onset were thrice outnumbered by the
Haradrim alone, soon their case became worse; for new strength came now
streaming to the field out of Osgiliath. There they had been mustered
for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of
their Captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of
Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags
of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like
half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues. Some now hastened up behind
the Rohirrim, others held westward to hold off the forces of Gondor and
prevent their joining with Rohan."
The mountain-trolls actually seem to be the Olog-hai (the specially bred
daylight resistant trolls).
--
Tar-Elenion
He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.
Belba Grubb From Stock
<danh...@inreach.com> wrote:
(snip)
>>In the meantime Eomer has gathered the Rohirrim and now returns to the
>>King even as Prince Imrahil and his cavalry start to drive the enemy
>>away from the city's Gate. Theoden orders the standard to be given to
>>Eomer and hails him as king before dying.
>
>Very convenient in a Shakespearean way that Theoden lasts just long
>enough to say farewell to both Merry and Eomer. It doesn't bother me,
>but it is mighty convenient.
And his last thought is to bid Eowyn farewell, not knowing that she
lies on the battlefield nearby. Marvellous!
Christopher set up the confrontation between Eowyn and the Witch-king
in a sort of script format, which worked quite well. On looking at
the whole chapter, is it my imagination or is there is a Shakespearean
feel to the way the characters come and go in the scenes here, and in
the rise and fall of the emotional pitch at various points? If I am
not imagining it, is the author going back on what he had to say about
drama in "On Fairy-stories," one wonders, or is he establishing his
point that prose is more effective than drama even in describing a
battlefield.
(snip)
>If it weren't explicitly stated otherwise (the wind brings a break in
>the Darkness prior to schedule), I'd have thought Sauron planned the
>weather this way, to bring *his* force up the Anduin. I figure once
>you set weather in motion, it isn't something that could be changed
>instantly. Would have been another nice case of evil shooting itself
>in the foot, but unfortunately, the text doesn't support this idea.
>
>So, action of the Valar?
Definitely. Sauron has shown how much he is capable of in sending the
cloud over and directing the flow of the wind to spread it, but it is
no match for the wind out of the West, though later on from Frodo's
viewpoint we see the two of them battling in the higher reaches of the
sky.
>
>>Eomer also sees the ships coming, but his mind is now clear again. He
>>laughs at despair as he rallies his men and lifts up his sword to defy
>>the oncoming Corsairs, but wonder takes him and he tosses up his sword
>>in great joy and sings as he catches it again.
>
>Is juggling really appropriate battlefield behavior?
Given this example, and how it draws all eyes to him...yep.
>>There is also a foreshadowing of what will happen in front of the
>>Black Gate as the orcs and other "spooky" critters (specifically,
>>troll-men, Variags and orcs - this has probably been discussed
>>elsewhere but what is a Variag again?)
>
>As stated elsewhere, consistent behavior isn't foreshadowing. It's
>also the case that not all of those who panic are "spooky critters".
>The "troll-men" seem to me to just be large black men, as seen by
>biased enemy chroniclers. Variags are the people of Khand, southeast
>of Mordor, and little is said of them in LotR (the two index entries
>are for this chapter). While not specifically stated to be human, that
>would seem to be the default assumption.
I guess so -- checked "The Annals of Arda," where the suggestion was
made that Variag is what the Haradrim call themselves.
In light of the somewhat East-West feel of things here between the
Rohirrim and the Haradrim, it's interestingly to have also learned on
a Web search of the word that Variag was actually a Russian cruiser
(see
http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/ru/ca/varyag/varyag.html )
that played a key role in the events leading up to the Sino-Russian
war of 1904-05 in which Japan became the first Asian power to defeat a
European power in modern times. I don't know who or what the cruiser
was named for. It had happened over 30 years before JRRT began work
on "The Lord of the Rings": I wonder if he was aware of the
connection. Perhaps not, as he doesn't seem to use "real" names in
his works; he may have heard the name in the news as a young student
and it caught his fancy and then he forgot it so that seemed to come
to him as his own invention as he wrote this chapter.
(snip)
>There is little hint that Merry is as hurt as it will turn out to be.
It could be that the Black Breath takes a while to come on; that was
what happened to Faramir. It doesn't seem to have been the case in
Bree, though, when poor Merry was exposed to it there; he toppled
right over then and also quickly recovered.
>
>We again see the good = flowering, evil = barrenness trope as
>Snowmane's Howe is said to grow with plentiful grass (grass fed the
>horse, now the horse feeds the grass), while "ever black and bare was
>the ground where the beast was burned."
This is a silly question, but what is a trope?
>It is a bad day for banner-bearers.
>
>We get a good taste of the thrill of battle and fey warrior glory, but
>close with a solemn account of the cost. This is no glorification of
>war; many are the dead and many have been named just so we have some
>identification of them when they are counted among the dead. Theoden
>may well have found peace and self-esteem in his charge, felling the
>black serpent, but many young lives have been cut short.
>
>"red fell the dew in Rammas Echor."
Yes. Even in "The Hobbit," victory was a gloomy business. The author
was a veteran of a terrible war, and here we see best perhaps the
inner balance between the call to glory and awareness of the terrible
cost that separates him from others, say, Siegfried Sassoon, who
became more embittered by their experiences of WWI.
Barb
____
Because we are going from our wonted places
To be task-ridden by one shattering Aim,
And terror hides in all our laughing faces
That had no will to die, no thirst for fame,
Hear our last word. In Hell we seek for Heaven;
The agony of wounds shall make us clean;
And the failures of our sloth shall be forgiven
When Silence holds the songs that might have been,
And what we served remains, superb, unshaken,
England, our June of blossom that shines above
Disastrous War; for whom we have forsaken
Ways that were rich and gleeful and filled with love.
Thus are we heroes; since we might not choose
To live where Honour gave us life to lose.
-- "Because We Are Going," Siegfried Sassoon, 1915
_____
Belba Grubb From Stock
wrote:
(snip)
>I wonder at his injuries. What kind would have been caused by having a
>horse fall on one?
Multiple broken bones, of course; torn ligaments, spinal cord injury,
punctured lungs, etc., and rupture of abdominal organs/blood vessels
either from the weight of the horse or direct perforation from the
sharp edges of shattered bones. Theoden probably bled to death
internally.
>And it's interesting in this light: a horse falling on
>him kills a full grown warrior of Men, but a troll (lots bigger than a
>horse) falling on a hobbit is not ultimately fatal. Hobbits really are
>tough.
Yep. Though doesn't Gimli say that there was a whole pile of bodies
there? Perhaps they broke the force of the troll's fall.
>>
>> >Merry remains with Theoden and Eowyn and the men of Theoden's
>> >household, who pick up the two bodies and carry them in honor toward
>> >the city, with Merry trailing behind. They meet Prince Imrahil and
>> >the cavalry of Gondor on the way, and Imrahil discovers that Eowyn is
>> >still alive and bids them hasten her in to the city. He then rides
>> >out to help Eomer
>>
>> Imrahil only gets a little space in this chapter, but he uses it to
>> good effect. Plus his symbol is a swan, so you know he's a good guy
>> who lives near water.
>
>It's funny, but the first time I read this, I expected Eowyn to fall in love
>with Imrahil. I was a bit disappointed, actually that it turned out to be
>Faramir instead.
Oh, I thought for sure she was going to die and was quite surprised
that she fell for Faramir. Yes, Imrahil would have been a good match
for her, too.
(snip)
>> >Some points here have already been discussed in detail elsewhere (who
>> >killed the Witch King,
>>
>> Eowyn, but with a major assist from Merry and the barrow blade,
>> vengeance of the North Kingdom come round at last. [Not just the
>> sword, but Merry, too -- the Shire is the last surviving state which
>> was under the King.]
>
>This is a very good point. And I think of the cry Merry made right after
>the barrow-wight, about the "men of Carn Dum", and wonder if some sort of
>geas or something was laid on him then? Other than that there is nothing to
>indicate it, yet the thought remains in the back of my mind.
What's a geas?
I hadn't thought of the barrow experience before, but yes that could
have something to do with it.
Barb
Jette Goldie
"R. Dan Henry" <danh...@inreach.com> wrote in message
news:crviu0dkemlm8gl57...@4ax.com...
if you listen to his Dad talk, anyway.
--
Jette
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
The difference between men and boys
is the cost of their toys"
Michele Fry
From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> writes
>This is a silly question, but what is a trope?
No it's not ! It's a very sensible question if you've never come across
the word. It's largely a literary term meaning "a figure of speech" -
"one in which a word or expression is used in other than its literal
sense, eg. metaphor, irony, metonymy (which is use of the name of a
single aspect of or adjunct to a thing as a way of referring to the
whole thing itself, eg. use of 'the ring' to refer to 'boxing'. From the
Greek metonymia) or synecdoche (sin-ek-do-ke - similar to metonymy eg.
'wiser heads' meaning 'wiser people').
Michele
==
"A book is not only a friend, it makes friends for you. When you have
possessed a book with mind and spirit, you are enriched. But when you
pass it on you are enriched threefold."
- Henry Miller 'The Books In My Life' (1969)
==
Now reading: The Woman's Companion to Mythology
==
Commit random acts of literacy! Read & Release at Bookcrossing:
http://www.bookcrossing.com/friend/Sass-80
Emma Pease
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:54:41 -0600, Belba Grubb From Stock
><ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>>Gothmog,
>
> Orc or other unnatural creature.
I'm inclined to think man. Orcs don't seem to be good at strategy and
so wouldn't be a good choice for second in command and Sauron does
have men high in his hierarchy (e.g., Voice of Sauron).
...
> There's a mix of diverse forces both from Mordor and from allied
> states. Without strong central leadership, working together would be
> very difficult. Who manages to make a stand may have as much to do
> with who has a good command system and who does not. The orcs probably
> haven't got anyone to tell them what to do after Gothmog, as there was
> no expectation that the Witch-King could be eliminated.
However I think Gothmog as Lieutenant of Morgul did have experience in
coordinating large forces. Note that the Nazgul, all 9, had spent a
large chunk of the previous year (June when the previous battle at
Osgiliath took place and they crossed the river till whenever they got
back to Sauron after the flood at the fords). During that time
someone had to oversee the tactical retreat after the battle and also
oversee the the forces that Sauron was presumably already starting to
gather. A lieutenant to the Witchking is the most obvious choice.
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Michele Fry
From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> writes
>What's a geas?
A "geas" is a spell, taboo or charm that is laid on one to complete a
task - it's an Irish word and it's pronounced "GESCH" - you'll find
more about it on http://www.wildideas.net/cathbad/pagan/dr-guide3.html -
the bottom four paragraphs.
John Jones
news:p73ou0ti0eg4naecm...@4ax.com...
>
> In light of the somewhat East-West feel of things here between the
> Rohirrim and the Haradrim, it's interestingly to have also learned on
> a Web search of the word that Variag was actually a Russian cruiser
> (see
> http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/ru/ca/varyag/varyag.html )
> that played a key role in the events leading up to the Sino-Russian
> war of 1904-05 in which Japan became the first Asian power to defeat a
> European power in modern times. I don't know who or what the cruiser
> was named for. It had happened over 30 years before JRRT began work
> on "The Lord of the Rings": I wonder if he was aware of the
> connection. Perhaps not, as he doesn't seem to use "real" names in
> his works; he may have heard the name in the news as a young student
> and it caught his fancy and then he forgot it so that seemed to come
> to him as his own invention as he wrote this chapter.
>
Varaigs, or Varangians, were Scandinavians who lived or journeyed in eastern
Europe; the state of Russia was actually founded by them, and early Russian
rulers were in fact Vikings. One was Oleg, another cruiser ;o)
The Byzantine Emperors had a Varangian Guard, which at one time included
Englishmen who had fled from the Norman Conquest.
Raven
> in <sU0Gd.1$Oh...@news.get2net.dk>,
> Raven <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> enriched us with:
> > I'm not saying that this is precisely how she did it. She might have
> > raised her sword to shoulder height before thrusting, and hitting him
> > at a good angle in his face as he bowed before her only because he
> > was rather taller than she, or because he hadn't in fact bowed very
> > low yet.
> Thanks. One small detail, however. Éowyn is clearly standing over her
> enemy when she strikes, as she immediately 'fell forward upon her fallen
> foe'. The preceding passage describes how she rises, 'tottering,
> struggling up' which doesn't lend any reserve of strength or balance to
> strike, so I think that her last strike 'with her last strength she drove
> her sword between crown and mantle' would be a downward stab, using both
> her last strength and her weight to drive her sword, point first, through
> his neck or back of the head.
This is possible, but not certain from the description. When they were
both on their feet, as he rose from the wreck of his flying beast, he
towered over her. Even on his knees his face might have been level with
hers.
In support of your position: when Merry stabbed him as he was striking
his second blow he stumbled forwards, and it may be that this implies that
he fell to his hands and knees, or even flat on his face. Then Éowyn could
not but have pierced the back of his head or neck, since she was standing up
when she did it. While the Witch-king was tall, nothing implies that he was
so big that he would be level with or towering above Éowyn even when she
stood and he was on all fours ---
As for "tottering" and "struggling up", this does not prove that she had
not sufficient strength and balance to drive the sword through with a
forward thrust. For one thing, she would then effectively be leaning on her
sword as it connected with his face, long enough for it to pierce what it
was to pierce. For another, the blow to her arm must have stunned her mind
as well as her body. Part of her weakness would for a moment have been the
lack of composure to rally what strength she had left. With a spark of
renewed hope and determination, and another second in which to recover her
faculties before her physical strength failed altogether, she could at the
moment when she struck have been effectively stronger than a second earlier,
when she struggled merely to get up from her knees.
Try also this thought experiment. Imagine you are standing on your
wobbly feet, leaning forward with a sword the point of which is in the face
of someone tall falling towards you. Then imagine you are yourself falling,
but with a sword held point down in your hand, sticking it into the head of
someone lying on the ground or standing on all fours. In the latter case,
unless you are leaning on your sword with your ribcage upon its pommel, you
will need more physical strength to prevent your arm from merely being
pushed back by the resistance of the enemy's tissue to the passage through
it of the sword-point. Unless you are leaning so far down or the blade is
so long that your upper body is effectively hanging from the grip.
And she fell upon the empty garment of her fallen foe. This is stated
directly, but does not prove that he was prone already when she finished
him. It does not say that she immediately fell upon him. She might have
kept tottering just long enough for his potato-sack corpse to reach the
ground before she followed. And we don't know that his un-body vanished
immediately he was slain. It might have taken at least some fractions of a
second, just as blades that vanish as they pierce him don't do so
immediately. Yet it is described as if his body had actually vanished by
the time her body reached where it had been.
So while both scenaria are possible, I will not say that it is certain
either way.
I'll go with stabbed from the front into the face, though, because it
seems more heroic. Go, girl, go! :-) (And be still, my heart!)
> >> Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and
> >> quick to anger.
> >> - Gildor Inglorion, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
> > Nor in the affairs of ducks, for they are not so subtle and quack
> > to anger.
> Or ravens, since they are quoth to anger? ;-)
That pretty much rhymes with "wroth to anger". At any rate, do not
meddle in the affairs of horses, for they are hungry and quick to the
manger.
Ravn.
R. Dan Henry
wrote:
>I thought "troll-men" might have been simply trolls that were bred to be
>daylight resistant, and slightly more intelligent than your average
>mountain- or cave-troll. They might have a slight more "manlike" appearance.
"and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and
red tongues." They are called "men" and the "like half-trolls" part
seems only a comparison. I also cannot see half-trolls coming out of
the Far Harad -- I would expect those to be bred in Mordor.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>I guess so -- checked "The Annals of Arda," where the suggestion was
>made that Variag is what the Haradrim call themselves.
Is Khand part of Harad, then? The Variags are specifically said to be
from Khand.
>In light of the somewhat East-West feel of things here between the
>Rohirrim and the Haradrim
Funny description, as they're actually Northerners v. Southerners.
>it's interestingly to have also learned on
>a Web search of the word that Variag was actually a Russian cruiser
The Haradrim have an Arabic feel to me. In fact, the mumakil make them
seem like Arabic Africa, which again makes the North-South component
the relevant one between the real-world pseudo-counterparts of the
Rohirrim and Haradrim. But perhaps the Variags in Khand were somewhat
like Russians, although likely not so used to cold weather.
>This is a silly question, but what is a trope?
A literary or rhetorical device. Primarily, this means things like
metonymy, synecdoche, etc., but it is also used to refer to commonly
used plot devices and gimmicks. Time travel, spaceships, and robots
are common science fiction tropes.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
>In article <lrdlu0pb387sangcg...@4ax.com>, R Dan Henry wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:54:41 -0600, Belba Grubb From Stock
>><ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>
>>>Gothmog,
>>
>> Orc or other unnatural creature.
>
>I'm inclined to think man. Orcs don't seem to be good at strategy and
>so wouldn't be a good choice for second in command and Sauron does
>have men high in his hierarchy (e.g., Voice of Sauron).
>
>...
But he is the "Lieutenant of Morgul" -- Minas Morgul gives Orcs the
creeps. A Man would have much more trouble there. And he'd be
commanding Orcs and Sauron doesn't seem to mix his forces much.
>> There's a mix of diverse forces both from Mordor and from allied
>> states. Without strong central leadership, working together would be
>> very difficult. Who manages to make a stand may have as much to do
>> with who has a good command system and who does not. The orcs probably
>> haven't got anyone to tell them what to do after Gothmog, as there was
>> no expectation that the Witch-King could be eliminated.
>
>However I think Gothmog as Lieutenant of Morgul did have experience in
>coordinating large forces.
I never suggested he wasn't competent. However, if he died, which he
must have done at some point in the battle, unless he was positioned
too far back to command effectively, then its pretty much all over at
that point for his forces.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
TT Arvind
[rabt trimmed]
> > >> Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and
> > >> quick to anger.
> > >> - Gildor Inglorion, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
>
> > > Nor in the affairs of ducks, for they are not so subtle and quack
> > > to anger.
>
> > Or ravens, since they are quoth to anger? ;-)
>
> That pretty much rhymes with "wroth to anger". At any rate, do not
> meddle in the affairs of horses, for they are hungry and quick to the
> manger.
I suppose nuclear physicists quark to anger?
--
Arvind
the softrat
<mic...@sassoonery.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <p73ou0ti0eg4naecm...@4ax.com>, Belba Grubb
>From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> writes
>
>>This is a silly question, but what is a trope?
>
>No it's not ! It's a very sensible question if you've never come across
>the word. It's largely a literary term meaning "a figure of speech" -
>"one in which a word or expression is used in other than its literal
>sense, eg. metaphor, irony, metonymy (which is use of the name of a
>single aspect of or adjunct to a thing as a way of referring to the
>whole thing itself, eg. use of 'the ring' to refer to 'boxing'. From the
>Greek metonymia) or synecdoche (sin-ek-do-ke - similar to metonymy eg.
>'wiser heads' meaning 'wiser people').
>
>Michele
>
There are also 'tropes' in traditional RC ecclesiastical music.
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Hige sceal şe heardra, heorte şe cenre,
mod sceal şe mare, şe ure TEUNC lytlağ.
R. Dan Henry
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>Thanks. One small detail, however. Éowyn is clearly standing over her
>enemy when she strikes, as she immediately 'fell forward upon her fallen
>foe'. The preceding passage describes how she rises, 'tottering,
>struggling up' which doesn't lend any reserve of strength or balance to
>strike, so I think that her last strike 'with her last strength she drove
>her sword between crown and mantle' would be a downward stab, using both
>her last strength and her weight to drive her sword, point first, through
>his neck or back of the head.
A downward thrust is a normally two-handed strike. Trying to do it
with one hand with as long a weapon as a sword would be very clumsy
compared to thrust. Falling forward does further suggest that she was
leaning forward, but this is as consistent with a thrust with her
weight behind it as it is with a downward stroke.
>That, and other virtues, but yes -- sin is essentially the absence of
>virtues.
That's utter nonsense. An old tire possesses an absence of virtues,
but it is not evil. Cruelty is not merely a lack of compassion, but an
active desire to do hurt.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Michele Fry
<sof...@pobox.com> writes
>There are also 'tropes' in traditional RC ecclesiastical music.
Yes I know - but that's not relevant in this context. R Dan Henry used
the word "trope" in the paragraph:
>We again see the good = flowering, evil = barrenness trope as
>Snowmane's Howe is said to grow with plentiful grass (grass fed the
>horse, now the horse feeds the grass), while "ever black and bare was
>the ground where the beast was burned."
And Belba asked "This is a silly question, but what is a trope?"
So only an answer giving the literary context is relevant at this point.
Belba Grubb From Stock
wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:23:39 +0000, Michele Fry
><mic...@sassoonery.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In article <p73ou0ti0eg4naecm...@4ax.com>, Belba Grubb
>>From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> writes
>>
>>>This is a silly question, but what is a trope?
>>
>>No it's not ! It's a very sensible question if you've never come across
>>the word. It's largely a literary term meaning "a figure of speech" -
>>"one in which a word or expression is used in other than its literal
>>sense, eg. metaphor, irony, metonymy (which is use of the name of a
>>single aspect of or adjunct to a thing as a way of referring to the
>>whole thing itself, eg. use of 'the ring' to refer to 'boxing'. From the
>>Greek metonymia) or synecdoche (sin-ek-do-ke - similar to metonymy eg.
>>'wiser heads' meaning 'wiser people').
>>
>>Michele
>>
>There are also 'tropes' in traditional RC ecclesiastical music.
Given the "music" of the story, I'd be interested in hearing more
about those. Must they be heard or can they be described in words?
Barb
Belba Grubb From Stock
Fascinating -- well, now, then what is the derivation of the word
"Varaig"? It doesn't sound Scandinavian. Is it Eastern European,
Russian? What does it mean?
And given the Englishmen (that's not really what they were called
then, is it) in the Varangian Guard, perhaps one can speculate the
Variags of Khand included at least some natives who had fled when the
Numenoreans arrived.
Barb
Belba Grubb From Stock
<danh...@inreach.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:35:01 -0600, Belba Grubb From Stock
><ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>
>>I guess so -- checked "The Annals of Arda," where the suggestion was
>>made that Variag is what the Haradrim call themselves.
>
>Is Khand part of Harad, then? The Variags are specifically said to be
>from Khand.
Here is the Annals of Arda entry, lifted entirely from
http://www.annalsofarda.dk/annals-of-arda/Places-index/Places-ME/Khand.htm:
Khand, the land East South-East of Gondor, East Harondor,
South-East of Mordor and North-East of Harad North and East of
Khand is Rhûn and the far Rhûn. A determination of the borders of
Khand ( and Harad, Near Harad ) is impossible as they are only
roughly entered on the maps. In common those lands may be called
Haradwaith.
The name of the land is of the speech of the men who lived there,
the Southrons and Easterlings allies of Sauron, other words of
their tongue is Múmak and Variag. ( Pme.) The Variags seems to
have been their own name for themselves. In Wr. and LotR they are
called " the Variags of Khand."
>
>>In light of the somewhat East-West feel of things here between the
>>Rohirrim and the Haradrim
>
>Funny description, as they're actually Northerners v. Southerners.
I was responding to a visual cue there -- the covers of my
"Illustrated History of Vietnam" CDs, having dragged those out to
check the name of the general who lost his elephant in the river; see
http://www.hcgvn.net/software/cdrom/vsbt.htm for an image of the cover
on Part I (those are the Trung Sisters up there under the umbrellas,
by the way). Both are very heavy on scarlet and war elephants, and of
course the serpent is considered (it was by Chesterton anyway) as a
symbol of the East. But I'm not saying this was JRRT's intention: the
scarlet is a perfect counter to the green of Rohan, and in the main
figures on the flag, the black is the opposite of white; this holds
true no matter what direction one is oriented in.
Barb
Larry Swain
But do crown and mantle meet at the face?
Jim Deutch
wrote:
>I wonder at his injuries. What kind would have been caused by having a
>horse fall on one? And it's interesting in this light: a horse falling on
>him kills a full grown warrior of Men, but a troll (lots bigger than a
>horse) falling on a hobbit is not ultimately fatal. Hobbits really are
>tough.
Isn't that a movie-ism? I don't recall anywhere in Tolkien where he
gives a troll's measurements, but I had never imagined them as being
bigger than horses (that is, more than 1000 pounds). Perhaps bigger
than the biggest Man, but not impossibly HUGE. The biggest Trolls we
read about, I believe, are those carrying Grond, and I picture them as
being maybe 7 feet tall, and perhaps 300 - 400 pounds. The cave troll
was merely "man-high", IIRC, and so only "man-heavy". I picture the
one that Pippin killed being similar.
>> Eowyn, but with a major assist from Merry and the barrow blade,
>> vengeance of the North Kingdom come round at last. [Not just the
>> sword, but Merry, too -- the Shire is the last surviving state which
>> was under the King.]
>
>This is a very good point. And I think of the cry Merry made right after
>the barrow-wight, about the "men of Carn Dum", and wonder if some sort of
>geas or something was laid on him then? Other than that there is nothing to
>indicate it, yet the thought remains in the back of my mind.
Ah, a very nice connection that I had never made.
Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
Alas, usenet is where one will often see crowds of
people jumping up and down on the greasy smear on
the pavement that used to be a dead horse.
--Nyrath the Nearly Wise
aelfwina
"Jim Deutch" <10313...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:41ed41ba...@news.compuserve.com...
> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 05:23:46 -0600, "aelfwina" <aelf...@cableone.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I wonder at his injuries. What kind would have been caused by having a
> >horse fall on one? And it's interesting in this light: a horse falling
on
> >him kills a full grown warrior of Men, but a troll (lots bigger than a
> >horse) falling on a hobbit is not ultimately fatal. Hobbits really are
> >tough.
>
> Isn't that a movie-ism? I don't recall anywhere in Tolkien where he
> gives a troll's measurements, but I had never imagined them as being
> bigger than horses (that is, more than 1000 pounds). Perhaps bigger
> than the biggest Man, but not impossibly HUGE. The biggest Trolls we
> read about, I believe, are those carrying Grond, and I picture them as
> being maybe 7 feet tall, and perhaps 300 - 400 pounds. The cave troll
> was merely "man-high", IIRC, and so only "man-heavy". I picture the
> one that Pippin killed being similar.
Is it? Huh. I have *always* imagined them at about the size they were in the
movies--I thought that was one of the things PJ got right, as they did look
exactly as I had always thought of them. What do you know? After all my
readings I still find out new things when we do this.
However, I'm afraid those trolls are too ingrained in my mind now after 36
years to do any shrinking now.
Raven
news:MPG.1c5667fbf...@news.individual.net...
> Wes šu Raven hal!
And dope addicts are narc to anger. I was wondering when our born
punster would chip in.
Annankįkai.
Raven
news:1hbou095ner0or8mu...@4ax.com...
If sin is the absence of virtue, then Troels' implication was presumably
"in a creature that is capable of virtue". An old tyre is incapable of
virtue. I am capable of it, and if I yet choose not to have it then by this
definition I am evil.
I think we should distinguish between evil and malevolence. A person may
be evil without being malevolent. If I used a money scam to ruin people for
the purpose of becoming richer myself, I would be evil. If I used a money
scam to ruin people because it caused me pleasure to see them go broke, I
would be malevolent. In both cases I would be doing harm to other people
just to please myself. The same distinction goes for a torturer who,
without much feeling either way, puts a victim in excruciating pain in order
to force him to give information, vs. a torturer who enjoys watching a
victim screaming in agony.
I should say that "malevolence" is a subset of "evil".
Jon Lennart Beck.
Emma Pease
> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:21:16 +0000 (UTC), Emma Pease
><em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>>In article <lrdlu0pb387sangcg...@4ax.com>, R Dan Henry wrote:
>>> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:54:41 -0600, Belba Grubb From Stock
>>><ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>Gothmog,
>>>
>>> Orc or other unnatural creature.
>>
>>I'm inclined to think man. Orcs don't seem to be good at strategy and
>>so wouldn't be a good choice for second in command and Sauron does
>>have men high in his hierarchy (e.g., Voice of Sauron).
>>
>>...
>
> But he is the "Lieutenant of Morgul" -- Minas Morgul gives Orcs the
> creeps. A Man would have much more trouble there. And he'd be
> commanding Orcs and Sauron doesn't seem to mix his forces much.
The Witchking seems to have led out an army from Minas Morgul that
included a troop of on horseback (which Frodo and Sam see). I don't
see orcs riding on horseback and from the wording they seem more than
nine so I presume they were men. These men seem to have survived
Minas Morgul (and I suspect the Voice of Sauron wouldn't have
trouble). Perhaps Gothmog was, like the Voice of Sauron, a man
steeped in Sauron's service.
>>> There's a mix of diverse forces both from Mordor and from allied
>>> states. Without strong central leadership, working together would be
>>> very difficult. Who manages to make a stand may have as much to do
>>> with who has a good command system and who does not. The orcs probably
>>> haven't got anyone to tell them what to do after Gothmog, as there was
>>> no expectation that the Witch-King could be eliminated.
>>
>>However I think Gothmog as Lieutenant of Morgul did have experience in
>>coordinating large forces.
>
> I never suggested he wasn't competent. However, if he died, which he
> must have done at some point in the battle, unless he was positioned
> too far back to command effectively, then its pretty much all over at
> that point for his forces.
We don't know what happened but I doubt he was killed early on.
One question is where were the other Nazgul after the witchking was
killed? Did whoever who was locally in charge decide to cut their
losses or was it a decision by the ranking remaining Nazgul to
withdraw from the field?
Emma
R. Dan Henry
<jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
>"R. Dan Henry" <danh...@inreach.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>news:1hbou095ner0or8mu...@4ax.com...
>
>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:51:15 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"
>> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>
>> >That, and other virtues, but yes -- sin is essentially the absence of
>> >virtues.
>
>> That's utter nonsense. An old tire possesses an absence of virtues,
>> but it is not evil. Cruelty is not merely a lack of compassion, but an
>> active desire to do hurt.
>
> If sin is the absence of virtue, then Troels' implication was presumably
>"in a creature that is capable of virtue". An old tyre is incapable of
>virtue. I am capable of it, and if I yet choose not to have it then by this
>definition I am evil.
But by that very fact, it is shown that the *negative* aspect alone is
not sufficient for evil and therefore it is not true that evil is
nothing or mere lack. Some positive element is required.
> I think we should distinguish between evil and malevolence. A person may
>be evil without being malevolent. If I used a money scam to ruin people for
>the purpose of becoming richer myself, I would be evil.
And you would be doing so because of a positive element of desire -- a
desire for wealth.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
>In article <40dou0hbge2vaj696...@4ax.com>, R Dan Henry wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:21:16 +0000 (UTC), Emma Pease
>><em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>>However I think Gothmog as Lieutenant of Morgul did have experience in
>>>coordinating large forces.
>>
>> I never suggested he wasn't competent. However, if he died, which he
>> must have done at some point in the battle, unless he was positioned
>> too far back to command effectively, then its pretty much all over at
>> that point for his forces.
>
>We don't know what happened but I doubt he was killed early on.
On what basis? Leaders are automatically preferred targets. The
Haradrim, Rohirrim, and Morgul forces have already lost their initial
commanders before Gothmog is the top guy for Morgul.
>One question is where were the other Nazgul after the witchking was
>killed? Did whoever who was locally in charge decide to cut their
>losses or was it a decision by the ranking remaining Nazgul to
>withdraw from the field?
Were they still even around the battlefield at this point? They did
some buzzing the city earlier, but it may have been thought that the
Witch-King provided all the supernatural terror they needed and the
others were reassigned to other tasks. (Their great speed on their
winged mounts makes them very valuable as scouts and messengers, as
well as terror weapons.)
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Belba Grubb From Stock
Wouldn't they more likely to meet at the back of the head? That there
was a gap between the two where Eowyn could drive in her sword might
well indicate that it was the face.
Barb
Belba Grubb From Stock
<em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
(snip)
>One question is where were the other Nazgul after the witchking was
>killed? Did whoever who was locally in charge decide to cut their
>losses or was it a decision by the ranking remaining Nazgul to
>withdraw from the field?
It does seem a little strange that Sauron wouldn't commit all or at
least most of his Nazgul to this very important battle. Of course at
the same time Thranduil is battling the forces of Dol Guldur while
Lorien is repelling a second assault. Some Nazul would very likely be
in those areas, one at least directing both assaults from Dol Guldur;
at least one more would be needed to fly over the battlefield and
relay intelligence, though there may have been more than one in the
air there just to psych out the defenders and depress their will to
resist. Still, there should have been more Nazgul on the scene at the
Pelennor Fields; my guess is that the western wind there was too
strong for their mounts (it was strong enough to blow away the noise
of bells and alarms from the city, after all) and whatever other
Nazgul were present were dispersed. The Witch-king's mount may have
held steady because of the extra power Sauron had invested in the
chief Nazgul for this battle.
Barb
C.C. Baxter
>
> It does seem a little strange that Sauron wouldn't commit all or at
> least most of his Nazgul to this very important battle.
Because it was not that very important. It was only the first wave of
his campaign. Sauron had countless other armies in Mordor and more were
coming. That was what Denethor saw in the Palantir and led him to
desperation.
--
Buddy
(Eliminar 17 para responder por correo/Remove 17 to reply by e-mail)
Troels Forchhammer
R. Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> enriched us with:
>
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:14:40 +0100, "Raven"
> <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
>>
<snip>
>> If sin is the absence of virtue, then Troels' implication was
>> presumably "in a creature that is capable of virtue". An old tyre
>> is incapable of virtue. I am capable of it, and if I yet choose not
>> to have it then by this definition I am evil.
That was indeed the implication. The ideas of evil, sin and virtues
doesn't really make sense other than in creatures with the capacity for
them -- creatures that did, in Tolkien's interpretation, possess a soul
(Ainur, Elves, Dwarves and humans).
> But by that very fact, it is shown that the *negative* aspect alone is
> not sufficient for evil and therefore it is not true that evil is
> nothing or mere lack. Some positive element is required.
The impression I get from reading Tolkien's letters (I'm sorry that I
can't really point to any specific passage -- it is more of a general
impression) is that he did think that in most humans it is only the
presence of virtues (among which Christian faith, to Tolkien, figured
very prominently) that keep them from being evil; that our basic desires
and need would take us towards evil if they are not held in check by the
presence of virtues. This would, IMO, fit well with the concept of the
Morgoth element in Middle-earth -- sustaining our body on the matter of
Arda Marred, we partake in that marring, and only by the presense of
virtues, of good, in our spirit can we resist that marring that would
turn us to evil.
My intention was to describe how the passage could be seen to reflect
Tolkien's views on evil as I understand his views -- not how that
reflects to my own views on evil.
>> I think we should distinguish between evil and malevolence. A
>> person may be evil without being malevolent.
I'd understand malevolence as a desire to actively hurt others, while
evil might also include mere indifference to the hurts of others due to
one's own selfish actions. And yes, I think it's important to note that
evil is not just malevolence (though naturally malevolence is necessarily
evil).
>> If I used a money scam to ruin people for the purpose of becoming
>> richer myself, I would be evil.
>
> And you would be doing so because of a positive element of desire -- a
> desire for wealth.
That might call for the comment about the camel and the needle's eye ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.
- (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather)
Jim Deutch
wrote:
>
>"Jim Deutch" <10313...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
>news:41ed41ba...@news.compuserve.com...
>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 05:23:46 -0600, "aelfwina" <aelf...@cableone.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I wonder at his injuries. What kind would have been caused by having a
>> >horse fall on one? And it's interesting in this light: a horse falling
>on
>> >him kills a full grown warrior of Men, but a troll (lots bigger than a
>> >horse) falling on a hobbit is not ultimately fatal. Hobbits really are
>> >tough.
>>
>> Isn't that a movie-ism? I don't recall anywhere in Tolkien where he
>> gives a troll's measurements, but I had never imagined them as being
>> bigger than horses (that is, more than 1000 pounds). Perhaps bigger
>> than the biggest Man, but not impossibly HUGE. The biggest Trolls we
>> read about, I believe, are those carrying Grond, and I picture them as
>> being maybe 7 feet tall, and perhaps 300 - 400 pounds. The cave troll
>> was merely "man-high", IIRC, and so only "man-heavy". I picture the
>> one that Pippin killed being similar.
>
>Is it? Huh. I have *always* imagined them at about the size they were in the
>movies--I thought that was one of the things PJ got right, as they did look
>exactly as I had always thought of them. What do you know? After all my
>readings I still find out new things when we do this.
>However, I'm afraid those trolls are too ingrained in my mind now after 36
>years to do any shrinking now.
Perhaps you formed your picture of Trolls from reading The Hobbit?
Compared to Bilbo and the Dwarves, Tom and Bill were pretty huge --
big enough to easily shake hobbits upside down to see what fell out of
their pocketses. Doesn't mean they had to be much bigger than your
average man, though.
I have a lot of trouble believing that you ever pictured trolls the
size of the ones that opened the Gates of Barad-dur before seeing them
in the movies. I don't think there is *any* precedent for those in
the books (with the possible exception of the "stone giants" in TH).
Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
ste...@nomail.com
: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:25:09 -0600, "aelfwina" <aelf...@cableone.net>
: wrote:
: Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
The Trolls are not described as 'man high' anywhere that I
know of. In Moria the Cave Troll is described as follows:
"A huge arm and shoulder, with a dark skin of greenish scales,
was thrust through the widening gap. Then a great, flat,
toeless foot was forced through below. There was a dead
silence outside."
"Huge" is not a very specific word. Later in Moria
"Two great trolls appeared; they bore great slabs of stone, and
flung them down to serve as gangways over the fire."
This fire was in a "great fissure". Again not very specific, but
it does suggest large slabs of stone which suggest large creatures.
In the "Treebeard" chapter we find this.
"They found that they were looking at most extraordinary face.
It belonged to a large Man-like, almost Troll-like figure, at
least fourteen foot high, very sturdy, with a tall head, and
hardly any neck."
It is suggested that Trolls are mockeries of Ents, so that is
one reason to believe that Trolls are of comparable size.
The most specific description we get is of the Hill-Trolls
in "The Black Gate Opens".
"Taller and broader than Men they were."
Again not very specific. This suggests trolls were large,
given that the Numenoreans were all 6+, but not as large
as the Ents.
Anyway, I can easily believe someone imagined the trolls
as being quite large. The descriptions are all so vague
there is a lot of room for the imagination to roam.
Stephen
Michelle J. Haines
>
> I have a lot of trouble believing that you ever pictured trolls the
> size of the ones that opened the Gates of Barad-dur before seeing them
> in the movies. I don't think there is *any* precedent for those in
> the books (with the possible exception of the "stone giants" in TH).
How tall are Ents? Troll were made "in mockery of Ents" were they not?
Michelle
Flutist
Conrad Dunkerson
> Perhaps you formed your picture of Trolls from reading The Hobbit?
> Compared to Bilbo and the Dwarves, Tom and Bill were pretty huge --
> big enough to easily shake hobbits upside down to see what fell out of
> their pocketses. Doesn't mean they had to be much bigger than your
> average man, though.
Well, in LotR the hobbits describe these three (in statue form) as "very
large" and then they eat a meal 'under the shadow of their legs'. The
troll at the Chamber of Mazarbul is said to have a "huge arm and
shoulder" and a 'great foot'. Those in the bridge scene are 'great
trolls' and toss down 'great slabs of stone'. The Olog-hai were said to
'far surpass' even the largest Orcs in height... and we know some Orcs
were as large as Men. They were also 'bred in mockery of Ents' which
would imply that they were of somewhat similar size. Tolkien's two
drawings also show them as quite large... roughly three times the height
of the dwarves and twice as tall as Gandalf. Ergo, I have always
pictured them as being considerably larger than humans (though not so
big as the movie depiction). Nine feet tall and 1100 lbs seem like
reasonably conservative estimates.
aelfwina
I'm sorry you have trouble believing me, but there it is. I *did* *always*
think of the Trolls that way, and now after seeing a couple of other
responses, I'm not so sure I was wrong.
Barbara
Christopher Kreuzer
> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>>> Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
<snip>
>>> Stars: What are the stars (gems) borne by Elladan and Elrohir, and
>>> are they related at all to the Star of Elendil that Aragorn wears?
>>
>> Not sure. Probably. They are elven-royalty after all, also descended
>> from Earendil (which the stars undoubtedly signify)
<snip>
This also got me wondering about how eligible Elladan and Elrohir were
for the thrones of Gondor and Arnor. Not very, is my first reaction. But
it was just a thought. They are noble descendants of Earendil, after
all, but then they can't even claim to be Numenorean (because they
aren't).
I just wonder what their motivation is for fighting for Aragorn. I know
they often rode with the Dunedain, but is this all to do with the
torment of their mother in the dens of the orcs, or is there a familial
obligation here as well?
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Christopher Kreuzer
> in <la16u0td4ejjcmhie...@4ax.com>,
> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> enriched us with:
>>
>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 5
>> Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
<snip>
>> DISCUSSION:
>>
>> The first few times through this work I skipped the poems, but then
>> this "Song of the Mounds of Mundberg" caught my eye and really sank
>> home. It embodies so well in poetry what JRRT has described in
>> heroic over-the-top prose earlier in the chapter. The two, prose
>> and poetry, complement each other perfectly. That's hard to
>> explain, but that is why this is my favorite chapter in the whole
>> work.
>
> I don't know about 'favourite chapter in the whole work' -- that
> depends much on my mood, sometimes this chapter and sometimes
> another. At some times 'The Shadow of the Past' or 'The Council of
> Elrond' make for favourite reading, while at others perhaps 'The
> Stairs of Cirith Ungol' or the Mordor chapters, and at yet other
> times this chapter.
This changing mood is how I feel too. And it has changed through the
years as well. When I first read it, there were bits that I didn't
appreciate nearly as much as I do now.
> This chapter is, however, definitely the one that most often (and most
> certainly) moves me to tears; that 'beat and lifting of the heart.'
That quote you gave from 'On Fairy-Stories' was very appropriate! For
me, the chapter that most surely produces that feeling is 'The Field of
Cormallen'.
<snip>
>> What exactly can Sauron do to you?
>
> I'm not sure that I'm really in the mood to contemplate that in
> detail -- or that I ever will be . . .
>
> Recall also Pippin's descriptions, "Then he gloated over me. I felt I
> was falling to pieces. No, no! I can't say any more."
>
> And then we have the cases of Gollum (who wasn't broken completely)
> and Thráin, who did not even remember his own name . . .
And we never discover what happened to Earnur. And Sauron and Morgoth
weren't exactly sweetness and kindness in the First Age either. But more
than that, we have the orcs themselves (or at least the first ones
twisted from Elves or Men) as a horrifying example of what can happen.
<snip>
Christopher Kreuzer
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:25:22 -0600, Larry Swain
> <thes...@operamail.com> wrote:
[killing the Witch-king]
>> But do crown and mantle meet at the face?
>
> Wouldn't they more likely to meet at the back of the head? That there
> was a gap between the two where Eowyn could drive in her sword might
> well indicate that it was the face.
Crown would be the actual crown on his head.
Mantle would be the shoulders covered in a cloak.
Recall the description at the Gate of Minas Tirith:
"The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown;
and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it
and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came
a deadly laughter." (The Siege of Gondor)
So: "...she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great
shoulders bowed before her..." means that her sword (whether slicing or
stabbing) impacted the WK's invisible body somewhere in the region of
the head and neck, excluding the very top part of the head on which the
crown would sit.
My personal image has been a forward thrust with the point of the sword
into the WK's face. Much like the film. But I like some of the other
scenarios depicted in this thread.
Natman
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I just wonder what their motivation is for fighting for Aragorn. I know
>they often rode with the Dunedain, but is this all to do with the
>torment of their mother in the dens of the orcs, or is there a familial
>obligation here as well?
>
>Christopher
>
Elladan and Elrohir are Aragorn's cousins (many generations removed!)
as is Arwen. Aragorn grew up in Rivendell, so E & E would know him
well.
Christopher Kreuzer
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:54:41 -0600, Belba Grubb From Stock
> <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>
>> On the Pelennor Field Theoden and the men of his household, along
>> with Dernhelm and Merry, have outrun the rest of the Rohirrim.
>
> Throughout much of the chapter, but especially in describing the
> assault of the Rohirrim, there is a rhythm to the text much like that
> of the alliterative verse of the Rohirrim. (There is also some
> alliteration, too.) It helps add to the feel in several ways. Like a
> piece of theme music, it gives a "Rohirric mood" to their battle
> scenes. It has something of the pace of horses, too, and a sense of
> the charge. Finally, it allows short, action-centric sentences,
> without the loss of mood that a more modern Hemmingwayesque style
> would. I've mostly been reading aloud to myself this time through and
> this sort of thing becomes more obvious than if reading silently.
This chapter has extensive parts that I love to read aloud. Expecially
from the "and now the fighting waxed furious" bit. Re-reading it again,
after reading your analysis, the style does become a lot clearer. The
alliteration is indeed there:
"the fighting waxed furious on the fields of the Pelennor" (F)
"Horns were blown and trumpets were braying, and the mumakil were
bellowing as they were goaded to war." (B)
"black sails bellying in the breeze" (B)
"and fight there on foot till all fell" (F)
There are also a lot of stacatto lists, which probably help give the
rhythm and pace that you mention. This can be seen by the number of
times Tolkien uses the word 'and' to string clauses together and keep
this rhythm going. From "And now the fighting waxed furious..." to "they
rode back to battle together", there are several passages where the use
of 'and' is quite overwhelming, but Tolkien makes it work!
"And now the fighting [...] and the din of arms [...] and the neighing
of horses."
"Horns [...] and trumpets [...] and the mumakil..."
"Hurin [...] and the Lord of Lossarnach [...] and Hirluin [...] and
Prince Imrahil"
[he thought to make a great shield-wall at the last]:
"and stand, and fight there on foot till all fell, and do deeds of
song..."
"and he was still unscathed, and he was young, and he was king"
"And then wonder took him, and a great joy; and he cast his sword up in
the sunlight and sang as he caught it. And all eyes followed his gaze,
and behold! upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and the wind
displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond."
That's seven uses of 'and' over two sentences!!! And the second one
begins with 'and' just like this sentence. And I didn't even include the
uses of 'and' in the last sentences of the previous paragraph.
From the "And now the fighting waxed furious" to "and they rode back to
battle together", there are 52 sentences, of which 10 begin with 'and'.
Some of those sentences are very long, and it looks like some can be
split up very poetically:
"Thus came Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elessar, Isildur's heir,
out of the Paths of the Dead,
borne upon a wind from the Sea
to the kingdom of Gondor;
and the mirth of the Rohirrim
was a torrent of laughter
and a flashing of swords
and the joy and wonder of the City
was a music of trumpets
and a ringing of bells.
These last two 'verses' are perfectly counterpointed.
>> The chieftain of the Haradrim
>
> And we know he's evil, because his symbol is a black snake on a red
> field.
What? Like the Eye of Mordor is red and painted on shields? It would be
nice if the shields were black (they probably are). But remember that
Aragorn's standard has white on black (sable). So black is not
necessarily evil, but mostly it is.
"...a white tree flowered upon a sable field beneath a shining crown and
seven glittering stars."
<snip>
> Imrahil only gets a little space in this chapter, but he uses it to
> good effect. Plus his symbol is a swan, so you know he's a good guy
> who lives near water.
:-)
You forgot the standard of the Rohirrim.
From the previous chapter, when Theoden charges:
"Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of
green [...] and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his
steed."
And from this chapter:
"displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet, he came against
the white horse and the green"
"...he rode to a green hillock and there set his banner, and the White
Horse ran rippling in the wind."
Also, from Appendix A, a nice quote that illustrates the firm friendship
between Eomer and Aragorn that we see again in this chapter:
"And wherever King Elessar went with war King Eomer went with him; and
beyond the Sea of Rhun and on the far fields of the South the thunder of
the cavalry of the Mark was heard, and the White Horse upon Green flew
in many winds until Eomer grew old."
So, in the spirit of "he's a good guy who lives near water", we know
that the Rohirrim are good guys that have horses! :-)
I'm not certain, but is the argent (pure white) standard of the Stewards
very noticeably missing from the battle? Is this symbolic of what is
happening to Faramir and Denthor in the city over which the battle is
being fought?
>> Things are looking bad, and then all hope vanishes as the ships of
>> the Corsairs of Umbar are seen speeding up the River on the south
>> wind.
I think it is great here how Tolkien interjects the cries of the men on
the city walls. It is dialogue, but very impersonal and general. It
communicates the needed sense of urgency, but doesn't break the flow of
the scene.
<snip>
>> Eomer also sees the ships coming, but his mind is now clear again.
>> He laughs at despair as he rallies his men and lifts up his sword to
>> defy the oncoming Corsairs, but wonder takes him and he tosses up
>> his sword in great joy and sings as he catches it again.
>
> Is juggling really appropriate battlefield behavior?
Maybe not. But the meeting of Eomer and Aragorn in the midst of battle
is a wonderful moment. Aragorn gets a great line, showing the
fulfillment of the foresight that had been on him:
"Thus we meet again, though all the hosts of Mordor lay between us. Did
I not say so at the Hornburg?"
Going back to the meeting in the midst of battle. I noticed the other
day that Tolkien really gets a lot of mileage out of some of his key
phrases and iconic imagery. Compare the following:
"And so at length Eomer and Aragorn met in the midst of the battle, and
they leaned on their swords and looked on one another and were glad."
(The Battle of the Pelennor Fields, The Lord of the Rings)
"Now the phalanx of the guard of the King broke through the ranks of the
Orcs, and Turgon hewed his way to the side of his brother; and it is
told that the meeting of Turgon with Hurin, who stood beside Fingon, was
glad in the midst of battle." (Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad,
The Silmarillion)
Also, these two passages from the same battle:
"And so it was, as you know, that we came in the third hour of the
morning with a fair wind and the Sun unveiled, and we unfurled the great
standard in battle." (Gimli retelling the tale of the arrival of Aragorn
and his forces at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, The Last Debate,
The Lord of the Rings)
"...in that very time, at the third hour of morning, the trumpets of
Maedhros were heard at last coming up from the east, and the banners of
the sons of Feanor assailed the enemy in the rear." (Of the Fifth
Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad, The Silmarillion)
So we have two battles, one from the First Age, one from the Third Age.
In both we have a glad and unexpected meeting of allies, and an arrival
of reinforcements at "the third hour of morning". But the outcome of the
two battles is very different.
>> DISCUSSION:
>>
>> The first few times through this work I skipped the poems,
>
> Boo!
Double Boo!!
>> The two, prose and poetry, complement each other perfectly.
>
> More than you may have realized. See my comments above.
Also, the poetry complements each other as well. The staves that Eomer
sings end with: "red nightfall". The later, chapter-ending poem, ends
with "red fell the dew in Rammas Echor."
It is also interesting to note that Eomer's "Out of doubt, out of
dark..." stave is echoed later at Theoden's funeral, with suitable
changes. This recasting of poems is a common theme in Tolkien. I can
think of at least three other examples to add to that one:
1) Variations on "The Road Goes Ever On..."
2) Variations on the Walking Song "Round the corner..."
3) Variations on the Elven Hymn "A Elbereth, Gilthoniel..."
4) The Rohirric staves "Out of doubt, out of dark..."
The first version:
Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!
The later version:
Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day's rising
he rode singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
Hope he rekindled, and in hope ended;
over death, over dread, over doom lifted
out of loss, out of life, unto long glory.
The contrast is interesting. Was this a common way to write poetry back
in the days before widespread writing? To have these key phrases (I
believe it is called a 'register') that the poet modifies to the
circumstances?
Especially in Germanic/Northern cultures?
<snip>
>> Some structural comments. First, this being JRRT, he telegraphs the
>> happy ending here just as he did in "The Hobbit" in a couple of
>> places: here, he tells us that when it is all over (no more detail of
>> the future than that) men will come and bury Snowmane on the field
>> where he fell and set a stone over his grave in the languages of
>> Gondor and the Mark (not those of Mordor, note). Why does he do
>> that? From "On Fairy-stories," we know that he counts the happy
>> ending as an integral part of any tale of Faerie: is he maintaining
>> the reader's belief in his Secondary World here? Is he just giving
>> the reader a break from the intense pace and drama of the story in
>> this chapter? Or
>
> Or there wasn't any place this information could better be fit,
> without tacking it on like an afterthought and anticlimax after the
> battle.
That doesn't sound like the best explanation. Surely it would have ended
up in the Appendices or left out altogether. I think the reason it is
put in is to emphasize the fact that Snowmane falling on him was what
killed Theoden. Though actually, that is done here:
"For Snowmane in his agony had rolled away from him again; yet he was
the bane of his master."
The whole scene of bearing Eowyn and Theoden from the battlefield is
well-written and the bit about Snowmane's burial and gravestone is not
at all out of place here. It fits perfectly. All being a little lull
before we return to the battle. Which by all accounts is what a real
battle of cavalry and infantry is like.
<snip>
>> Your thoughts, comments, additions, corrections, and.?
>
> There is little hint that Merry is as hurt as it will turn out to be.
Actually, Merry not appearing to be badly hurt is not quite true. It may
not be obvious in amongst all that is happening, but we _are_ told:
"He was weary and full of pain, and his limbs trembled as with a chill."
I don't think we can ask for too much more here. Tolkien is, I think,
very careful to set up the following chapters (enough to be obvious on
the second reading), but not so much as to distract from the central
points of the current chapter. He does this particularly with Gandalf,
mostly ignoring him at the expense of the WK, Theoden, and Denethor. It
is only when Denthor, Theoden and the WK are all dead, that Gandalf is
really truly brought to the fore again at the end of the 'Pyre of
Denthor' chapter.
Similarly, Merry plays a central role in the first half of this chapter
(Pelennor Fields), but is firmly pushed off-stage until his next
starring role in the Houses of Healing. The second half of the chapter
is about the epic battle, and we don't need any distractions.
> We again see the good = flowering, evil = barrenness trope as
> Snowmane's Howe is said to grow with plentiful grass (grass fed the
> horse, now the horse feeds the grass), while "ever black and bare was
> the ground where the beast was burned."
Again? I remember the one in 'The Silmarillion' with Anfauglith, and
probably similar stuff for other graves (Fingolfin and Finrod?). but the
other examples in LotR escape me for the moment.
> Merry get forgiven his disobedience as Theoden gets the first of his
> two farewells. Sneaky Theoden, getting two final speeches, one to
> Merry and then again to Eomer.
:-)
And the one to Merry is _so_ bittersweet. Reminds me a lot of the one
between Thorin and Bilbo.
Theoden first:
"My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company
I shall not now be ashamed. [...]
Grieve not! It is forgiven. Great heart will not be denied. Live now in
blessedness; and when you sit in peace with your pipe, think of me! For
never now shall I sit with you in Meduseld, as I promised, or listen to
your herb-lore." (Theoden's farewell to Merry)
Now Thorin:
"I go now to the halls of waiting to sit beside my fathers, until the
world is renewed [...] There is more in you of good than you know, child
of the kindly West. Some courage and some wisdom, blended in measure. If
more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would
be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell!"
(Thorin's farewell to Bilbo, The Hobbit)
> It is a bad day for banner-bearers.
LOL!
Let's see now...
Halbarad - Dunedain
Black Serpent banner-bearer - Haradrim
Guthlaf - Rohirrim
Any more?
And seriously, the role of banner-bearer was crucial, heroic and very,
very dangerous. I'm sure there are lots of tales about them from
history.
> We get a good taste of the thrill of battle and fey warrior glory
Forgive me for reposting something here from earlier:
The singing [from the charge of the Rohirrim] is an interesting contrast
to the silence and cries of 'Death' we get in [this chapter]. There are
at several types of 'fey' and battle moods we see here and in the last
chapter:
Theoden's initial fey onset;
Eowyn's fatalistic attitude and despair;
Merry's slow-kindled courage;
several moments of grief;
Eomer's icy cold fury;
Eomer's laughing attitude.
Are these all realistic depictions of battle moods, and are they
inspired by any Northern spirit in Tolkien's writings?
> but close with a solemn account of the cost. This is no glorification
of
> war; many are the dead and many have been named just so we have some
> identification of them when they are counted among the dead. Theoden
> may well have found peace and self-esteem in his charge, felling the
> black serpent, but many young lives have been cut short.
>
> "red fell the dew in Rammas Echor."
And even the river mourns:
"Grey now as tears, gleaming silver,
red then it rolled, roaring water"
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> One question is where were the other Nazgul after the witchking was
> killed? Did whoever who was locally in charge decide to cut their
> losses or was it a decision by the ranking remaining Nazgul to
> withdraw from the field?
The impression I get is that the defeat was rather comprehensive:
"...in that hour the great Battle of the field of Gondor was over; and
not one living foe was left within the circuit of the Rammas. All were
slain save those who fled to die, or to drown in the red foam of the
River. Few ever came eastward to Morgul or Mordor; and to the land of
the Haradrim came only a tale from far off: a rumour of the wrath and
terror of Gondor."
So it looks like Gothmog really had thrown all his forces into the
battle and nothing was left to retreat. I mean, you can't really blame
him. Would _you_ go back to Sauron and say "Erm, well, we sort of lost,
but there wasn't anyth...."
<instant transport to>
<houses of lamentation>
<beyond all darkness>
<flesh devoured>
<shrivelled mind>
<naked to Lidless Eye>
I'd try and win the battle!
Christopher Kreuzer
[Nazgul]
> Were they still even around the battlefield at this point? They did
> some buzzing the city earlier, but it may have been thought that the
> Witch-King provided all the supernatural terror they needed and the
> others were reassigned to other tasks. (Their great speed on their
> winged mounts makes them very valuable as scouts and messengers, as
> well as terror weapons.)
I think the next time we hear of them is this from Gandalf:
"He is watching. He sees much and hears much. His Nazgul are still
abroad. They passed over this field ere the sunrise..." (The Last
Debate)
So yes, the Nazgul are more scouts and messengers at this point, and
(except for their captain) always seemed to have that role. They also
were much dismayed by the fall of their captain, as seen by the one that
flew over Sam and Frodo in Mordor:
"As it went it sent out a long shrill cry, the voice of a Nazgul; but
this cry no longer held any terror for them: it was a cry of woe and
dismay..." (The Land of Shadow)
So at least one Nazgul is dismayed. Though it might be best not to go
into precisely which Nazgul it is...
Christopher Kreuzer
> <danh...@inreach.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> If it weren't explicitly stated otherwise (the wind brings a break in
>> the Darkness prior to schedule), I'd have thought Sauron planned the
>> weather this way, to bring *his* force up the Anduin. I figure once
>> you set weather in motion, it isn't something that could be changed
>> instantly. Would have been another nice case of evil shooting itself
>> in the foot, but unfortunately, the text doesn't support this idea.
>>
>> So, action of the Valar?
>
> Definitely. Sauron has shown how much he is capable of in sending the
> cloud over and directing the flow of the wind to spread it, but it is
> no match for the wind out of the West, though later on from Frodo's
> viewpoint we see the two of them battling in the higher reaches of the
> sky.
I vaguely remember this, but can't pin the quote down.
Where is this "battle in the sky"?
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
>> Imrahil only gets a little space in this chapter, but he uses it to
>> good effect. Plus his symbol is a swan, so you know he's a good guy
>> who lives near water.
>
> It's funny, but the first time I read this, I expected Eowyn to fall
> in love with Imrahil. I was a bit disappointed, actually that it
> turned out to be Faramir instead.
Never thought of an Imrahil-Eowyn love match!
<snip>
>>> Some points here have already been discussed in detail elsewhere
>>> (who killed the Witch King,
>>
>> Eowyn, but with a major assist from Merry and the barrow blade,
>> vengeance of the North Kingdom come round at last. [Not just the
>> sword, but Merry, too -- the Shire is the last surviving state which
>> was under the King.]
>
> This is a very good point. And I think of the cry Merry made right
> after the barrow-wight, about the "men of Carn Dum", and wonder if
> some sort of geas or something was laid on him then? Other than that
> there is nothing to indicate it, yet the thought remains in the back
> of my mind.
That is something I would agree with. It is no co-incidence that Merry
got those lines about the men of Carn Dum. Merry was also the one that
had been exposed to the Black Riders in Bree, so he has that personal
connection as well.
[Snowmane's Howe]
> It is another way of lending verisimilitude to his "translator"
> conceit. After all, if Sauron had won, no one would have been writing
> all this down (at least not from the "good guys" POV. And the fact
> is that this does not really jump out at one in the first reading,
> caught up in the feel of the battle and its aftermath.
Good point. Translator's conceit can explain it very well.
<snip>
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> The mountain-trolls actually seem to be the Olog-hai (the specially
> bred daylight resistant trolls).
Just for completeness:
"But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared
in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai
they were called in the Black Speech. [They] were in fashion of body and
mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed
in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of
their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder
than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the
Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them." (Appendix F)
Which is relevant also to the discussion about their size.
At the Battle of the Pelennor Fields we only see mountain-trolls
wielding Grond. But we see trolls again at the battle at the Black Gate
later on, though these are described as hill-trolls. But both battles
are in daylight, so presumably the trolls are all Olog-hai.
the softrat
Yeah, but PJ & Co. didn't read that part of the book. It was judged
'uncinematic".
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"All misinformation is true .... from a certain point of view"
-- the Jedi Handbook
R. Dan Henry
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:47:48 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
>> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>>>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 5
>>>> Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
>
><snip>
>
>>>> Stars: What are the stars (gems) borne by Elladan and Elrohir, and
>>>> are they related at all to the Star of Elendil that Aragorn wears?
>>>
>>> Not sure. Probably. They are elven-royalty after all, also descended
>>> from Earendil (which the stars undoubtedly signify)
>
><snip>
>
>This also got me wondering about how eligible Elladan and Elrohir were
>for the thrones of Gondor and Arnor. Not very, is my first reaction. But
>it was just a thought. They are noble descendants of Earendil, after
>all, but then they can't even claim to be Numenorean (because they
>aren't).
Daddy would be ahead of them anyway. And when I suggested that the
brother of Elros might have priority over Numenorean kingdoms in exile
over some highly diluted lines of kingdomless "kings", I got laughed
at.
>I just wonder what their motivation is for fighting for Aragorn. I know
>they often rode with the Dunedain, but is this all to do with the
>torment of their mother in the dens of the orcs, or is there a familial
>obligation here as well?
Well, they don't like Sauron or his minions and their presence lends
credibility to Aragorn's claim (even better if word is spread about
his Elvish girlfriend). I suspect they also have formed some
friendship with Aragorn and some of the other Rangers in their time
together.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
Deutch) wrote:
>Perhaps you formed your picture of Trolls from reading The Hobbit?
>Compared to Bilbo and the Dwarves, Tom and Bill were pretty huge --
>big enough to easily shake hobbits upside down to see what fell out of
>their pocketses. Doesn't mean they had to be much bigger than your
>average man, though.
Maybe not much bigger than the average Numenorean, but I'd have said
seven or eight feet tall, at least, to handle dwarves as easily as
they seem to do. That's enough bigger than the average man to impress
me.
The gate-trolls of PJ's Mordor are just silly, however.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>You forgot the standard of the Rohirrim.
No, I didn't. But it's old news by this time.
>From the previous chapter, when Theoden charges:
>
>"Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of
>green [...] and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his
>steed."
There have been several mentions of the emblem of the white horse
before that, including on gifted shields.
If you don't know by this chapter that the Rohirrim really like
horses, I don't think the flag is going to help.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>So at least one Nazgul is dismayed. Though it might be best not to go
>into precisely which Nazgul it is...
Fred of East Norwich, IMBO. [1]
[1] B is for Baseless.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>The contrast is interesting. Was this a common way to write poetry back
>in the days before widespread writing? To have these key phrases (I
>believe it is called a 'register') that the poet modifies to the
>circumstances?
In general, "originality" as the chief virtue of art is a very modern
concept and borrowings from or retelling of older work was fairly
routine. Remember there was no Copyright Law in those days, for good
or for ill.
>Actually, Merry not appearing to be badly hurt is not quite true. It may
>not be obvious in amongst all that is happening, but we _are_ told:
>
>"He was weary and full of pain, and his limbs trembled as with a chill."
For being in a full-scale battle for the first time (having seen only
skirmishing actions before), having fallen from a horse (after a long
and wearing journey for one not used to horseback), having killed for
likely the first time (I suspect Pippin's memory exaggerates when he
has Merry hewing off Orcish limbs), and seen one or two people he
cares for die, he's doing pretty darned well by that description. And
trembling limbs especially is not at all uncommon after a
high-adrenaline situation turns to standing around. Weary would be
expected at this point and full of pain is hardly surprising either --
even if the ride hadn't left him hurting, the fall probably would
have.
Compare with Eowyn, who looks to be dead until Doctor Swan saves the
day with his handy Vambrace of Breath Detection.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
AC
R Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> wrote:
>
> The Haradrim have an Arabic feel to me. In fact, the mumakil make them
> seem like Arabic Africa, which again makes the North-South component
> the relevant one between the real-world pseudo-counterparts of the
> Rohirrim and Haradrim. But perhaps the Variags in Khand were somewhat
> like Russians, although likely not so used to cold weather.
Well, I think they feel a bit more Carthaginian myself.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
Yuk Tang
news:cs1ub5$ci3$1...@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi:
> Raven wrote:
>> "Belba Grubb From Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> skrev i en meddelelse
>> news:la16u0td4ejjcmhie...@4ax.com...
>
>>>Not to go into a lot of tactical detail, but what is the best way
>>>to tackle a mumak on the battlefield? Leading bowmen close in to
>>>shoot at their eyes is fatal, after all.
>>
>> Hamstring them from behind? Or frighten them with fire? The
>> Romans used
>> the latter tactics against the elephants that Hannibal managed to
>> get across the Alps, IIRC, which the Karthaginians found rather
>> unsportsmanlike.
>
> More likely that would be Pyrrhos of Epeiros, who attacked
> Rome few years ahead of Carthagenians. He was a sporty sort
> of fella, while Hannibal was much too much of a professional
> to complain about something like that.
>
> But against Mumaks - mice! Huge baskets of mice, catapulted
> in front of them would drive them to panic, and they would
> grab nearby soldiers and slam the mice with them, or climb
> up to nerby trees.
Better tactic than that used by Regulus, who guarded against the
disruption that war elephants can cause by packing his men even
closer together. Can you say squish?
--
Cheers, ymt.
John Jones
news:1ihpu0tef36jk9dra...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:04:06 -0000, "John Jones"
> <jo...@jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Varaigs, or Varangians, were Scandinavians who lived or journeyed in
eastern
> >Europe; the state of Russia was actually founded by them, and early
Russian
> >rulers were in fact Vikings. One was Oleg, another cruiser ;o)
> >
> >The Byzantine Emperors had a Varangian Guard, which at one time included
> >Englishmen who had fled from the Norman Conquest.
>
> Fascinating -- well, now, then what is the derivation of the word
> "Varaig"? It doesn't sound Scandinavian. Is it Eastern European,
> Russian? What does it mean?
Erm ... dunno, to be honest, Barb. Perhaps one of the clever buggers who
know about philology will tell us?
>
> And given the Englishmen (that's not really what they were called
> then, is it) in the Varangian Guard,
The word 'Anglo-Saxon is a recent invention. I always thought that they
called themselves 'English' or a similar word.
Jette Goldie
"the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:33cuu01ipcq9muvdm...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:17:25 -0700, "Michelle J. Haines"
> <mhaine...@enigo.com> wrote:
>
> >Jim Deutch wrote:
> >>
> >> I have a lot of trouble believing that you ever pictured trolls the
> >> size of the ones that opened the Gates of Barad-dur before seeing them
> >> in the movies. I don't think there is *any* precedent for those in
> >> the books (with the possible exception of the "stone giants" in TH).
> >
> >How tall are Ents? Troll were made "in mockery of Ents" were they not?
> >
> >Michelle
> >Flutist
>
> Yeah, but PJ & Co. didn't read that part of the book. It was judged
> 'uncinematic".
That doesn't mean they didn't read it, or how else would they
know it wouldn't film well the way it stood?
Like Tom Bombadil.
--
Jette Goldie
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
"If you don't care where you are, then you aren't lost"
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Christopher Kreuzer
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:49:23 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:47:48 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
>>> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Belba Grubb From Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>>>>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 5
>>>>> Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>>> Stars: What are the stars (gems) borne by Elladan and Elrohir, and
>>>>> are they related at all to the Star of Elendil that Aragorn wears?
>>>>
>>>> Not sure. Probably. They are elven-royalty after all, also
>>>> descended from Earendil (which the stars undoubtedly signify)
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> This also got me wondering about how eligible Elladan and Elrohir
>> were for the thrones of Gondor and Arnor. Not very, is my first
>> reaction. But it was just a thought. They are noble descendants of
>> Earendil, after all, but then they can't even claim to be Numenorean
>> (because they aren't).
>
> Daddy would be ahead of them anyway. And when I suggested that the
> brother of Elros might have priority over Numenorean kingdoms in
> exile over some highly diluted lines of kingdomless "kings", I got
> laughed at.
Oh dear. Though I think the argument against Elrond would be that he has
chosen to be an elf. I think I am correct in saying that Elladan and
Elrohir had not yet made their choices yet. The example of Arwen might
be a good one. She is the sister of Elladan and Elrohir, but she was
still accepted as "Queen of Elves and Men", though it is unclear what
power she had in the reunited realms of Arnor and Gondor.
But if Elladan or Elrohir had married some royal princess (not that any
seemed to exist at the time), and also chosen to be mortal, would they
have been able to pursue any claim to the thrones of Arnor and Gondor in
the absence of people like Aragorn?
>> I just wonder what their motivation is for fighting for Aragorn. I
>> know they often rode with the Dunedain, but is this all to do with
>> the torment of their mother in the dens of the orcs, or is there a
>> familial obligation here as well?
>
> Well, they don't like Sauron or his minions and their presence lends
> credibility to Aragorn's claim (even better if word is spread about
> his Elvish girlfriend). I suspect they also have formed some
> friendship with Aragorn and some of the other Rangers in their time
> together.
I don't quite get how their presence helps to bolster Aragorn's claim.
Do you mean that the blessing of Elrond would be suggested by their
presence (and by Aragorn's relationship with Arwen), and that this would
lend credibility to Aragorn's claims? I think this would be a minor
effect, if an effect at all. There are far more important signs of
Aragorn being the true king.
Christopher Kreuzer
> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> You forgot the standard of the Rohirrim.
>
> No, I didn't. But it's old news by this time.
Sorry. I thought you were commenting on standards in general. I see now
that you were showing how the brief mention of the standards tell us who
are the good guys and bad guys.
>> From the previous chapter, when Theoden charges:
>>
>> "Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of
>> green [...] and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of
>> his steed."
>
> There have been several mentions of the emblem of the white horse
> before that, including on gifted shields.
>
> If you don't know by this chapter that the Rohirrim really like
> horses, I don't think the flag is going to help.
:-)
Very droll!
Christopher Kreuzer
> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>> Actually, Merry not appearing to be badly hurt is not quite true. It
>> may not be obvious in amongst all that is happening, but we _are_
>> told:
>>
>> "He was weary and full of pain, and his limbs trembled as with a
>> chill."
>
> For being in a full-scale battle for the first time (having seen only
> skirmishing actions before), having fallen from a horse (after a long
> and wearing journey for one not used to horseback), having killed for
> likely the first time
Hmm? Merry killed someone? :-)
> (I suspect Pippin's memory exaggerates when he
> has Merry hewing off Orcish limbs), and seen one or two people he
> cares for die, he's doing pretty darned well by that description. And
> trembling limbs especially is not at all uncommon after a
> high-adrenaline situation turns to standing around. Weary would be
> expected at this point and full of pain is hardly surprising either --
> even if the ride hadn't left him hurting, the fall probably would
> have.
You are quite right. His reaction is perfectly normal, so in light of
what we later know, he does seem to be bearing up rather well,
expecially when compared with Eowyn.
There is still one little clue though that things are not quite normal,
in that we are told that Merry's arm is now numb after striking the
Witch-King. But it does look like Tolkien was waiting until the opening
of the next chapter to give maximum impact to the description of the
effects this would have on Merry.
> Compare with Eowyn, who looks to be dead until Doctor Swan
> saves the day with his handy Vambrace of Breath Detection.
LOL!
Emma Pease
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> R. Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:49:23 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
>> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>> This also got me wondering about how eligible Elladan and Elrohir
>>> were for the thrones of Gondor and Arnor. Not very, is my first
>>> reaction. But it was just a thought. They are noble descendants of
>>> Earendil, after all, but then they can't even claim to be Numenorean
>>> (because they aren't).
>>
>> Daddy would be ahead of them anyway. And when I suggested that the
>> brother of Elros might have priority over Numenorean kingdoms in
>> exile over some highly diluted lines of kingdomless "kings", I got
>> laughed at.
>
> Oh dear. Though I think the argument against Elrond would be that he has
> chosen to be an elf. I think I am correct in saying that Elladan and
> Elrohir had not yet made their choices yet. The example of Arwen might
> be a good one. She is the sister of Elladan and Elrohir, but she was
> still accepted as "Queen of Elves and Men", though it is unclear what
> power she had in the reunited realms of Arnor and Gondor.
She probably had power as a regent if Aragorn was away (e.g., battling
the Haradrim in the far south) though that power might also have been
wielded by the Steward.
> But if Elladan or Elrohir had married some royal princess (not that any
> seemed to exist at the time), and also chosen to be mortal, would they
> have been able to pursue any claim to the thrones of Arnor and Gondor in
> the absence of people like Aragorn?
I doubt it. They are not descended from the original founders of
Arnor and Gondor (Elendil and his sons) but only nephews of a distant
ancestor of Elendil. Note that Gondor had had centuries of no king
but just a steward and this would have likely continued if Aragorn had
been killed in the last battle. I also suspect that a fair number of
the Dunedain could claim descent from Elendil though likely only
through the female line (just as a large chunk of modern Englishmen
are descended from early English kings such as Henry 1) and they would
have a better right than distant collateral relations such as Elladan
and Elrohir.
Emma
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
the softrat
<j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>
>"the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message
>news:33cuu01ipcq9muvdm...@4ax.com...
>>
>> 'uncinematic".
>
>That doesn't mean they didn't read it, or how else would they
>know it wouldn't film well the way it stood?
>
>Like Tom Bombadil.
They could tell from the way the pages hit the dustbin.
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Pave the planet! One world. One people. One slab of asphalt.
Larry Swain
John Jones wrote:
> "Belba Grubb From Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message
> news:1ihpu0tef36jk9dra...@4ax.com...
>
>>On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:04:06 -0000, "John Jones"
>><jo...@jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Varaigs, or Varangians, were Scandinavians who lived or journeyed in
>
> eastern
>
>>>Europe; the state of Russia was actually founded by them, and early
>
> Russian
>
>>>rulers were in fact Vikings. One was Oleg, another cruiser ;o)
>>>
>>>The Byzantine Emperors had a Varangian Guard, which at one time included
>>>Englishmen who had fled from the Norman Conquest.
>>
>>Fascinating -- well, now, then what is the derivation of the word
>>"Varaig"? It doesn't sound Scandinavian. Is it Eastern European,
>>Russian? What does it mean?
>
>
> Erm ... dunno, to be honest, Barb. Perhaps one of the clever buggers who
> know about philology will tell us?
Variag is the Russian form of Old Norse Vaeringja, or in English
spelling, the Varangians.
>
>
>>And given the Englishmen (that's not really what they were called
>>then, is it) in the Varangian Guard,
Depends. The term "English" was used, but so far as I know used of
those in England owing allegiance to the king. Interesting to look up
and see what they were called abroad.
R. Dan Henry
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>R. Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:05:21 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
>> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>> Actually, Merry not appearing to be badly hurt is not quite true. It
>>> may not be obvious in amongst all that is happening, but we _are_
>>> told:
>>>
>>> "He was weary and full of pain, and his limbs trembled as with a
>>> chill."
>>
>> For being in a full-scale battle for the first time (having seen only
>> skirmishing actions before), having fallen from a horse (after a long
>> and wearing journey for one not used to horseback), having killed for
>> likely the first time
>
>Hmm? Merry killed someone? :-)
Okay, "was [in conjunction with Eowyn, who delivered the killing blow]
responsible for the death of someone". Or maybe I should have said,
"did harm to another sentient and then had time to contemplate what he
had done for the first time" -- he never really had a chance to react
to hacking at orcsies.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com