Chapter of the Week LotR Bk1 Ch.8: "Fog on the Barrow Downs"
AC
You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/ . As
well, take the opportunity to sign up for a chapter yourself.
Synopsis
--------
The Hobbits sleep their last night in the house of Tom Bombadil. During the
night Frodo has a dream in which he hears sweet singing in his mind. The
song "seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and
growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it
was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift
sunrise."[1]
The Hobbits eat breakfast alone, and then Tom bids them to go with good
speed. As the Hobbits ride away, Frodo remembers that he has not said
goodbye, and becomes so distressed that he turns back. Goldberry is in fact
waiting for them, and shows them the lay of the land around them. She bids
them to hold to their purpose, and names Frodo "Elf-friend". Frodo can find
no words to answer her and simply bows.[2]
The Hobbits ride towards the Road, and into a strange land of hills and
valleys, as the day grows hot. In the distance the land seems to be smoking
from steam rising from fallen rain, and a shadow lays at the edge of sight.
At midday they reach a green mound with a saucer-like top. It seems to them
that they have come much further than they thought, and they glimpse a long
dark line to the north which Merry guesses are the line of trees that line
the Road.[3]
Believing that they have plenty of time to get out of the Downs before
sundown, the Hobbits rest beside a single standing stone in the center of
the circle. To the east Frodo can see hills topped by standing stones. The
Hobbits have a fine noon-meal.[4]
Suddenly the Hobbits wake up from a sleep they did not mean to take and find
the sun setting and the hill surrounded by a sea of fog. The fog rolls
above them and becoming like a roof over their heads. The Hobbits, feeling
as if a trap had been set for them, try to make their way in the direction
they believe will lead to the Road. They ride in single file so as not to
lose each other.[5]
Frodo sees a gap ahead which he believes to be the end of the Barrow-downs.
When he calls to the others to follow him, but then sees that they have
wandered away.[6] Before him are two tall pillars which he could not
remember seeing before. He passes through the pillars, and darkness seems
to fall around him. His pony rears and he is thrown off. Again he calls to
the other Hobbits, and thinks he hears a distant answer. He chases after
the call and finds himself going up a steep hill. Then he hears what he
thinks to be a cry of help, and continues up to the top of the hill.[7]
The wind is beginning to blow and it becomes very cold. Frodo follows what
he thinks is another cry for help. Above the stars are appearing as the
wind blows away the fog. He now sees a great barrow before him. Frodo
cries out "Where are you?" and is answered by a deep, cold voice saying
"Here! I am waiting for you." Frodo tries to run, but cannot and falls to
the ground as a dark figure looms over him, two eyes lit with a pale light.
Frodo is gripped by an icy hand and he remembers no more.[8]
When Frodo awakes he finds himself in the barrow. He sees his companions
with faces lookely deathly pale. About them lay many treasures, with
jewelry on them and swords at their sides, one long sword across their
necks. A voice can be heard singing a terrible incantation. Then Frodo sees
an arm come around the corner walking on its fingers towards his companions.
Frodo seizes a sword and severs the hand, and there is a shriek and all
lights go out.[9]
Knowing nothing else to do, Frodo sings out the song Tom Bombadil taught
them. A slow moment later Tom can be heard singing, and then stones can be
heard being moved, and the sunlight streams in, Tom's head looking in. Tom
enters the barrow, sings a song that drives away the Wight, for there is a
shriek and the chamber collapses. Together Tom and Frodo pull the other
Hobbits out of the barrow. Tom sings another song and the other Hobbits
awaken.[10]
The Hobbits have another meal while Tom gathers their ponies. amd brings his
own; Fatty Lumpkin. He announces he will lead them to the border of his
land. He gives them all knives to serve as swords, and takes for himself
brooch to give to Goldberry. He tells the Hobbits the swords were made by
the Men of Westernesse in their war against the king of Carn Dum in Angmar.
The rest of the treasure he leaves out for whoever may come along. As he
speaks of these men the Hobbits have a vision of tall, grim Men and one with
a star on his brow.[11]
When they reach the long dark line they had seen the day before, they see
that it is a dike, which Tom says was the border of a kingdom. Frodo
questions Tom about the Black Riders, and though Tom does not think they
will be pursued this night or tomorrow, he sees he is not certain. He tells
them to make for Bree, and to stay at an old inn called the Prancing Pony
with the worthy keeper Barliman Butterbur.[12]
The Hobbits beg Tom to stay with him, but he says he has his own affairs to
tend to. Thus the Hobbits part ways with Tom Bombadil. Frodo reminds the
others that he is going by the name Mr. Underhill, and that Baggins must not
be mentioned. So they make their way to Bree.
Points of Interest
------------------
[1] Here Frodo has another dream, this one clearly of Tol Eressea. If I may
be permitted to jump ahead to the end of LotR "And the ship went out into
the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last on a night of rain
Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing
that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in
the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and
was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green
country under a swift sunrise." What was the purpose of this dream, and who
sent it to Frodo?
[2] Frodo is again named Elf-friend, this time by Goldberry. As well, Frodo
is greatly distressed that he has not given his fairwells to Goldberry. Why
is Frodo so taken with her?
[3] We get our first sense of something ominous on the horizon, literally;
"A shadow lay on the edge of sight, a dark haze above which the upper sky
was like a blue cap, hot and heavy." The narrator seems to make the point
that it is becoming a hot, stuffy day.
[4] The Barrow-downs are a land filled with strange stones, and certainly
must have been, even on a normal day, quite an ominous place. It's a wonder
that the Hobbits chose to stop and quite literally put their backs against a
tall standing stone in the middle of a hollow. Was there some other agent
or power at work here?
[5] There must certainly be some power here, or at least the narrator
strongly suggests that it was more than riding, food and drink. This is
where this chapter turns into one of the darker passages. Others may
disagree but this is where I feel that LotR really begins to show its
greatness and grandeur. As well, this chapter indicates to me that if
Tolkien had wanted to, he could have made a fine writer in the horror genre.
[5a] And was it really wise for the Hobbits to ride in single file? To my
mind, riding abreast in this thick fog might have been a better idea.
[6] How the devil did they all get separated? The narrator makes it seem
purely accidental, but in rereading this I never got a strong impression as
to how Frodo managed, quite without his knowledge, to part ways with the
others.
[7] All I can say is brrr... This chapter, though I've read it dozens of
times, still sends chills up my spine.
[8] <Ak! Hides under pillows while reading this one!> We finally see a
Barrow and meet a dreaded Barrow-wight. This might be a good point at which
discuss the Barrows themselves. According to Appendix A the barrows were
inhabited by "evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur" after the Great Plague
(1636 TA) kills off the kingdom of Cardolan. I imagine this has been
discussed many a time, but what were these spirits? Are they perhaps Maiar
of some kind, or are they Men like the Nazgul or the Dead Men of Dunharrow?
[8a] Out of interest, Appendix A also tells us that the Barrow-downs, or
Tyrn Gorthad, were in fact originally made by the ancestors of the Edain
before they crossed Erid Luin. This would make them very ancient indeed.
[8b] Appendix A says that the barrow that the Hobbits were held in was that
of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in battle in 1409 TA (thus the
exclamation by Merry that the men of Carn Dum had come up them in the night.
This, however, does raise an odd inconsistency. The Tale of Years dates the
Great Plague at 1636 TA, and I have interpreted the fall of Cardolan to
that. However, the Appendix says that the prince in question was slain in
1409 TA. Am I assuming wrong that Cardolan fell finally due to the Plague,
or was the Appendix referring to another plague two centuries earlier? Or
is this in fact an inconsistency?
[9] What a chilly little incantation the Barrow-wight speaks. One verse
seems a little curious; "till the Sun fails and the Moon is dead." What a
creepy passage. It rather makes me wonder which Dark Lord the wight is
talking about.
[10] What is with old Bombadil anyways? Is he some sort of stalker? Was he
following the Hobbits, or was this just another coincidence, or is he able
to move to any corner of his land if called upon?
[10a] Whatever the explanation, I get the impression moreso in the barrow
than back with Old Man Willow that Tom is a very powerful being. His song
is so strong that the wight disappears, and topples the inner chamber.
[11] A few neat things about this passage:
[11a] First the brooch. Tom remembers who it belonged to, clearly, and
remembers her to be quite fair. Any idea how long Tom's been hanging around
the land between the Barrow-downs and the Old Forest?
[11b] Something of Merry's dream of being attacked by the men of Carn Dum is
explained. We know that one of those swords will later play some role in
the Witch King's demise. Why would such a sword be buried in a noble
man of Westernesse's grave?
[11c] A hint about Aragorn here, the last in a line of Dunedain that serve
as protectors.
[11d] Apparently it takes more than just evicting a wight to permanently
keep a barrow empty. The treasures within were left to be picked up by
"'all finders, birds, beasts, Elves or Men, and all kindly creatures'; for
so the spell of the mound should be broken and scattered and no Wight ever
come back to it." This indicates clearly to me that the wights inhabit the
barrows in part to the treasures, or that the treasures attract them or bind
them to it.
[12] Tom may not know a lot about what goes on Eastward, but he knows a lot
about his neighborhood. Does he knowledge of Bree come from Farmer Maggot
as well?
--
Aaron Clausen
tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
Belba Grubb from Stock
>Chapter 8 - Fog on the Barrow Downs
>
>You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/ . As
>well, take the opportunity to sign up for a chapter yourself.
Just wondering - has anybody signed up for next week's "At The Sign of
the Prancing Pony" yet?
(snip excellent summary - this is not an easy chapter to turn into a
synopsis)
>[2] Frodo is again named Elf-friend, this time by Goldberry. As well, Frodo
>is greatly distressed that he has not given his fairwells to Goldberry. Why
>is Frodo so taken with her?
Because of the joy that he first felt in her presence: "Fair lady
Goldberry!...Now the joy that was hidden in the songs we heard is made
plain to me."
In the epilogue to "On Fairy Stories," JRRT discusses joy as "the mark
of the true fairy-story (or romance), or as the seal upon it" and
describes it as "a sudden glimpse of the underlying reality or
truth...not only a 'consolation' for the sorrow of the this world, but
a satisfaction, and an answer to that question, 'Is it true?'
It's interesting that in "The Lord of the Rings" JRRT gives us some of
this joy early on, even before the hobbits have returned to the road
to carry on the larger adventure. But he does carefully state that
this is a different kind of joy than that of an elven enchantment,
"less keen and lofty...but deeper and nearer to mortal heart;
marvellous and yet not strange."
It is a stage reached in the fairy-story, that is, but not the true
eucatastrophe (which is foreshadowed marvelously, in Frodo's case, by
the dream you address in point 1). Goldberry herself points the
hobbits towards that greater joy the only way she can, with some
rather nautically phrased parting advice and her again calling Frodo
an Elf-friend.
>[4] The Barrow-downs are a land filled with strange stones, and certainly
>must have been, even on a normal day, quite an ominous place. It's a wonder
>that the Hobbits chose to stop and quite literally put their backs against a
>tall standing stone in the middle of a hollow. Was there some other agent
>or power at work here?
>
>[5] There must certainly be some power here, or at least the narrator
>strongly suggests that it was more than riding, food and drink. This is
>where this chapter turns into one of the darker passages. Others may
>disagree but this is where I feel that LotR really begins to show its
>greatness and grandeur. As well, this chapter indicates to me that if
>Tolkien had wanted to, he could have made a fine writer in the horror genre.
He would have made Stephen King seem like a pleasant wuss (g). The
inexperienced, simple hobbits were so easily pushed around and
panicked in the Old Forest, and here it happens to them once again,
with even more dire results. I don't know what particular power or
agent could have been at work, though, other than the general evilness
of the area.
Was it right of Tom to send them out this way without guidance?
>[8b] Appendix A says that the barrow that the Hobbits were held in was that
>of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in battle in 1409 TA (thus the
>exclamation by Merry that the men of Carn Dum had come up them in the night.
>This, however, does raise an odd inconsistency. The Tale of Years dates the
>Great Plague at 1636 TA, and I have interpreted the fall of Cardolan to
>that. However, the Appendix says that the prince in question was slain in
>1409 TA. Am I assuming wrong that Cardolan fell finally due to the Plague,
>or was the Appendix referring to another plague two centuries earlier? Or
>is this in fact an inconsistency?
You are assuming right that Cardolan fell finally due to the Plague.
It makes sense seen against the larger background of the collapse of
Arnor. It was a process, not a dramatic fall. In the 1300s two of
Arnor's three internal divisions (Cardolan and Rhudaur) were fighting
each other over the chief Palantir of the North at Amon Sul, with
Cardolan and the Elves of Lindon holding a line in force along the
Weather Hills, the Road and the lower Hoarwell against Rhudaur. I
don't know why Arthedain didn't try to mediate between the two.
Anyway, in 1409 the Witch-king scooped up Rhudaur and broke Cardolan's
fortified line, forcing the Dunedain there into isolated pockets, some
at Fornost and the North Downs and some at the Barrowdowns and the Old
Forest. The Elves of Lindon bought those Dunedain some time by
sending in forces from Lindon and Rivendell (from Lorien), so Cardolan
didn't exactly fall then, although Rhudaur did and from then on
belonged to Angmar. It was "ravaged," though. The Dunedain probably
toughed it out in their remaining holds with the aid of the Elves (and
Bombadil?), with hopes of regaining the territory they had lost, until
the Great Plague of 1636, when most everybody perished and the final
end of Cardolan occurred. Then "evil spirits" out of Angmar and
now-occupied Rhudaur entered the barrows and dwelt there, where the
Dunedain of Cardolan had held on for well over 200 years, resisting
Angmar, until they were finally wiped out.
No wonder Bombadil was saddened by the memory. The dike seen in this
chapter, the boundary of a kingdom: would that have been one of the
northern boundaries between Cardolan and Arthedain?
>[9] What a chilly little incantation the Barrow-wight speaks. One verse
>seems a little curious; "till the Sun fails and the Moon is dead." What a
>creepy passage. It rather makes me wonder which Dark Lord the wight is
>talking about.
I had always thought it was Sauron -- the Witch-King's boss -- but
with the mention of the Sun and Moon, it could well be Morgoth,
Sauron's boss.
Barb
AC
Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
> On 8 Mar 2004 01:20:24 GMT, AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>>Chapter 8 - Fog on the Barrow Downs
>>
>>You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/ . As
>>well, take the opportunity to sign up for a chapter yourself.
>
> Just wondering - has anybody signed up for next week's "At The Sign of
> the Prancing Pony" yet?
I certainly hope so. It's a great chapter and it was a toss up between this
one and our first meeting with Strider. So people, get volunteering!
>
> (snip excellent summary - this is not an easy chapter to turn into a
> synopsis)
Thanks. I discovered that as I set out to write it. There is a lot of
detail in this chapter.
>>[5] There must certainly be some power here, or at least the narrator
>>strongly suggests that it was more than riding, food and drink. This is
>>where this chapter turns into one of the darker passages. Others may
>>disagree but this is where I feel that LotR really begins to show its
>>greatness and grandeur. As well, this chapter indicates to me that if
>>Tolkien had wanted to, he could have made a fine writer in the horror genre.
>
> He would have made Stephen King seem like a pleasant wuss (g). The
> inexperienced, simple hobbits were so easily pushed around and
> panicked in the Old Forest, and here it happens to them once again,
> with even more dire results. I don't know what particular power or
> agent could have been at work, though, other than the general evilness
> of the area.
I get the impression from the way the fog seemed to hem the Hobbits in, and
then the way in which they fell asleep for an entire afternoon and right
untils unset, that there was an active agent involved. The narrator never
comes out and says it, but that's the impression I get.
>
> Was it right of Tom to send them out this way without guidance?
As I say elsewhere in the points of interest, I wonder whether Tom was a
stalker. Twice he seems close at hand.
The only thing about this that made me wonder is that the Hobbits were
supposedly in the barrow of the last prince of Cardolan (killed in 1409 TA).
That's a two century delay between that prince's death and the Great Plague.
Thinking now, I suppose that the king of Cardolan, being one of the
Dunedain, could have outlasted his son by that length of time, though it
does seem, as memory recalls, that by this point the lifespan of the
Numenoreans had dwindled considerably.
>
> No wonder Bombadil was saddened by the memory. The dike seen in this
> chapter, the boundary of a kingdom: would that have been one of the
> northern boundaries between Cardolan and Arthedain?
I seem to recall the Barrow-downs were in Cardolan.
>
>>[9] What a chilly little incantation the Barrow-wight speaks. One verse
>>seems a little curious; "till the Sun fails and the Moon is dead." What a
>>creepy passage. It rather makes me wonder which Dark Lord the wight is
>>talking about.
>
> I had always thought it was Sauron -- the Witch-King's boss -- but
> with the mention of the Sun and Moon, it could well be Morgoth,
> Sauron's boss.
That bit of wording makes me wonder... a little at least. Those spirits,
whatever they were, were sent out of Angmar, so obviously were working for
Sauron.
Een Wilde Ier
> On 8 Mar 2004 01:20:24 GMT, AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>Chapter 8 - Fog on the Barrow Downs
>>
>>You can find previous discussions on http://parasha.maoltuile.org/ . As
>>well, take the opportunity to sign up for a chapter yourself.
>
>
> Just wondering - has anybody signed up for next week's "At The Sign of
> the Prancing Pony" yet?
Not yet! (hint, hint)
Raven
news:slrnc4niio.174....@alder.alberni.net...
> [1] Here Frodo has another dream, this one clearly of Tol Eressea. If I
> may be permitted to jump ahead to the end of LotR "And the ship went
> out into the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last on a
> night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the
> sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him
> that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain
> turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white
> shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise."
> What was the purpose of this dream, and who sent it to Frodo?
Perhaps this dream was not sent by anyone. It may have been a vague sort
of foresight on Frodo's part, the convoluted time of a mythical setting
rather than the linear time of the real world.
> [2] Frodo is again named Elf-friend, this time by Goldberry. As well,
> Frodo is greatly distressed that he has not given his fairwells to
> Goldberry. Why is Frodo so taken with her?
Who wouldn't be? :-)
> [5a] And was it really wise for the Hobbits to ride in single file? To my
> mind, riding abreast in this thick fog might have been a better idea.
Perhaps there was not room for that in a land of narrow valleys. At any
rate, riding in single file permits a leader whom the others can follow. In
a fog, this may be preferrable to riding abreast, with a greater risk of the
rider to the left straying further and further from the rider on the right
flank.
> [11a] First the brooch. Tom remembers who it belonged to, clearly, and
> remembers her to be quite fair. Any idea how long Tom's been hanging
> around the land between the Barrow-downs and the Old Forest?
He seems to have been roaming at least through the whole of Eriador on a
time, and only later confined himself to the Old Forest. One guess is that
he did so to be with Goldberry, near her land - she was the River-daughter,
and possibly a spirit connected with the Withywindle. Another guess is that
he confined himself to the Old Forest when most of the rest of the great
forest that once covered much of Eriador disappeared, which seems to have
been the work, at least partly, of the Númenoreans. We know that they began
at Lond Daer at the Greyflood estuary and hacked their way inland, felling
timber for their navies, and that the devastation of the Eriador forests was
largely their doing. We also hear in a later chapter of how a squirrel
might once have leapt from tree to tree in a journey from the Old Forest to
Fangorn. If this is what caused Tom to settle down, then whoever the lady
was that the brooch belonged to dwelt in Arnor, or in Arthedain or Cardolan
(most probably Cardolan, since the tomb "is said " to have been that of the
last Prince of that realm), in a fairly recent time compared to Tom's
dwelling there.
> [11b] Something of Merry's dream of being attacked by the men of Carn Dum
> is explained. We know that one of those swords will later play some role
> in the Witch King's demise. Why would such a sword be buried in a
> noble man of Westernesse's grave?
It is perhaps curious that the descendants of the Númenoreans, who
believed in One God, had the same burial rites that the ancients of our
world had, who believed in many gods and also that the soul, when departing,
would have use of items buried with the body. Perhaps it was a lapse into
such a "pagan" mindset, that a great person should have great treasure with
him in death. Possibly an Arnorian version of the cult of the dead that in
Gondor produced the great tombs of the dead kings in Rath Dínen.
But if they did believe that a high person should have gifts with him in
his grave, then it is not surprising that valuable gifts were chosen. A
little like Thorin having Orcrist with him in his long sleep, rather than
letting a living dwarf wield it in battle.
> [12] Tom may not know a lot about what goes on Eastward, but he knows a
> lot about his neighborhood. Does he knowledge of Bree come from Farmer
> Maggot as well?
I should not be surprised if Tom has conversations with Barliman too.
And/or with Rangers.
Karasu.
Bruce Tucker
> [5a] And was it really wise for the Hobbits to ride in single file?
To my
> mind, riding abreast in this thick fog might have been a better idea.
It's plain that they're not yet quite up to speed as heroic adventurers,
isn't it?
> [8a] Out of interest, Appendix A also tells us that the Barrow-downs,
or
> Tyrn Gorthad, were in fact originally made by the ancestors of the
Edain
> before they crossed Erid Luin. This would make them very ancient
indeed.
I wonder if any of the still extant structures are supposed to be this
old, or if he just means the use of the site in this fashion is that
old. 6,500 years would be an incredibly long time for such neat
ring-shaped mound of earth to stay intact and recognizable, and as for
the standing stones, that might be more plausible in a less geologically
active part of the world, but with whole parts of the continent being
split asunder and plunged under the sea only a few hundred miles away
it's hard to imagine anything that old still standing.
> [8b] Appendix A says that the barrow that the Hobbits were held in was
that
> of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in battle in 1409 TA (thus
the
> exclamation by Merry that the men of Carn Dum had come up them in the
night.
> This, however, does raise an odd inconsistency. The Tale of Years
dates the
> Great Plague at 1636 TA, and I have interpreted the fall of Cardolan
to
> that. However, the Appendix says that the prince in question was
slain in
> 1409 TA.
Could it be possible that Cardolan continued on without a royal house?
Gondor, after all, went for much longer without a king.
> [11] A few neat things about this passage:
>
> [11a] First the brooch. Tom remembers who it belonged to, clearly,
and
> remembers her to be quite fair. Any idea how long Tom's been hanging
around
> the land between the Barrow-downs and the Old Forest?
We don't seem to have any indication that his home was anywhere else,
although presumably when the forest was larger he wandered through more
of it.
> [11b] Something of Merry's dream of being attacked by the men of Carn
Dum is
> explained. We know that one of those swords will later play some role
in
> the Witch King's demise. Why would such a sword be buried in a noble
> man of Westernesse's grave?
Does anyone know when this passage was written? The reason I ask is that
the first treasures from the Sutton Hoo mounds, which far exceeded
anything found before then in Britain, were uncovered in the summer of
1939, and the contents of the Barrow sound a lot like the contents of
the ship at Sutton Hoo.
I was once taught in a college class that many academics had thought the
burial described for Beowulf must have been an absurd exaggeration, that
no primitive culture would waste *that* much wealth on a burial, only
wealthy civilized cultures could do such a thing. But of course Sutton
Hoo proved them wrong. It remains one of the richest, if not the
richest, ship-burial sites in Europe. And of course Tolkien had always
been of the opinion that Beowulf preserved a genuine record of heroic
age Anglo-Saxon culture, that the customs and attitudes depicted therein
were not fantasies created by later (9th or 10th century) writers.
It's still unknown whether a body was ever buried at the Sutton Hoo site
or not; some archaeologists think that perhaps the lack of a body
indicated that the king (possibly Raedwald of East Anglia) was given a
Christian burial while still maintaining the pagan custom of a ship
burial with weapons and treasures, just without his body. For of course
burial with such goods was very much a pagan idea, giving the warrior or
king the use of these treasures in the next world.
So I'm wondering if Tolkien is saying something about the people who
piled all the treasures in the barrow, similar to what he says about the
Numenoreans and the people of Gondor who spent so much time and effort
building vast mausoleums and contemplating the mysteries of their own
mortality. Why would such a sword be buried? Perhaps because the prince
and his people, like we see later in Denethor, were overcome by despair
in the dying days of Cardolan, and returned to the ways of their heathen
ancestors, desiring that their worldly goods be heaped about them in
their graves so that they might take them with them into the next world.
Better, the author seems to be saying through Bombadil, to let the
swords be used for their intended purpose, to let the brooch adorn a
fair and living lady who'll do it justice, and to scatter the rest of
the treasure under the sun than to horde it all away in the dark to rot
in the service of a vain (in every sense) quest for immortality.
> [11d] Apparently it takes more than just evicting a wight to
permanently
> keep a barrow empty. The treasures within were left to be picked up
by
> "'all finders, birds, beasts, Elves or Men, and all kindly creatures';
for
> so the spell of the mound should be broken and scattered and no Wight
ever
> come back to it." This indicates clearly to me that the wights inhabit
the
> barrows in part to the treasures, or that the treasures attract them
or bind
> them to it.
This seems like a recurring theme in Tolkien's works, if usually less
supernatural in its operation. I don't recall the exact passage, but
remember Gandalf's warning about the approach of the goblins and wargs
in The Hobbit: something to the effect that others had been drawn by the
rumors of Smaug's demise and the lure of his treasure, IIRC. And of
course we're given to understand that Smaug wasn't the only dragon, nor
dragons the only monsters (see Bilbo's thoughts before "guessing"
"Time") who brought kingdoms to ruin when their wealth became greater
than their wisdom. And of course it was the Dwarves' mining for mithril
that awoke the Balrog in Moria, although the element of the treasure
binding the creature seems to be absent there. Still, greed and
accumulated wealth and attracting evil creatures often seem to go hand
in hand.
--
Bruce Tucker
disinte...@mindspring.com
Michael O'Neill
I want to hear about how the lap-dancer made Frodo disappear!
M.
Bill O'Meally
> I want to hear about how the lap-dancer made Frodo disappear!
No, Michael. The Ring went around his finger. His *FINGER*.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Bill O'Meally
> [1] Here Frodo has another dream, this one clearly of Tol Eressea.
> If I may be permitted to jump ahead to the end of LotR "And the ship
> went out into the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last
> on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and
> heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it
> seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey
> rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he
> beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift
> sunrise." What was the purpose of this dream, and who sent it to
> Frodo?
I've always been intrigued by this passage, both in this chapter and at
the end of the book; in particular, by the phrase "swift sunrise". Does
this have any meaning besides being alliterative? I've often wondered if
this is an indication of an altered sense of time for a mortal in the
Undying Lands, where they "wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in
a light too strong and steadfast." /Sil/ 'Akalabeth'
Henriette
Maybe it is time for someone from our long list of reserve-volunteers
to step forward, but somehow all of them are hardly seen around at the
moment. Or maybe for this one Chapter we can have a wildly speculative
anarchistic and unstructured leaderless discussion.
Henriette
Hashemon Urtasman
Een Wilde Ier wrote:
>>
>>
>> Just wondering - has anybody signed up for next week's "At The Sign of
>> the Prancing Pony" yet?
>
>
> Not yet! (hint, hint)
>
I volunteer for this chapter, if it hasn't already been filled yet.
I kinda like this chapter.
Hasan
Henriette
>
> Goldberry (snip)and her again calling Frodo an Elf-friend.
The Grubb's phrasing is more accurate, as this was the second time
Goldberry called Frodo Elf-friend. The first time was in Chapter 7.
("The light in your eyes and the ring in your voice tells it")(In
spite of our discussion I still think it should be "tell it").
(snip)
Henriette
The Sidhekin
> Chapter 8 - Fog on the Barrow Downs
> [6] How the devil did they all get separated? The narrator makes it seem
> purely accidental, but in rereading this I never got a strong impression as
> to how Frodo managed, quite without his knowledge, to part ways with the
> others.
Simple. Frodo was leading -- and then he hurried forward, without
looking back to see that the others _were_ following. Classic. :-)
> [9] What a chilly little incantation the Barrow-wight speaks. One verse
> seems a little curious; "till the Sun fails and the Moon is dead." What a
> creepy passage. It rather makes me wonder which Dark Lord the wight is
> talking about.
I think it is just a more poetic "till the End of Time". A version
more true to Tolkien. But the dark lord is likely Morgoth -- another
reference to the end of time.
And Tom knows the right song for the Wight. Long after the Wight
has declared: "Cold be hand and heart and bone", Tom's answer is:
"Warm now be heart and limb". A counter-spell to the "dreadful
spells" of the Barrow-wights. Tom's songs are stronger songs --
though they _seem_ simple enough. :-)
(_This_ is a spell-casting duel! Movie makers take notes!)
> [10] What is with old Bombadil anyways? Is he some sort of stalker? Was he
> following the Hobbits, or was this just another coincidence, or is he able
> to move to any corner of his land if called upon?
Who knows; nope; nope; possibly; and unlikely. :-)
You are forgetting the ponies -- they escaped and quickly ran to
meet Fatty Lumpkin. Since FL is so wise and all, I expect TB knew
what had happened to the Hobbits even before sunrise. He was probably
looking for them. All he now had to do was find them -- which he
could not until he was called. There are plenty of barrows, and the
ponies would not be of much help finding the right one. :-)
> [11c] A hint about Aragorn here, the last in a line of Dunedain that serve
> as protectors.
Indeed. "Sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding
from evil things folk that are heedless." Tom is in the know.
> [11d] Apparently it takes more than just evicting a wight to permanently
> keep a barrow empty.
Yes. You have to make sure it is not repopulated.
> This indicates clearly to me that the wights inhabit the barrows in
> part to the treasures, or that the treasures attract them or bind
> them to it.
Agreed. Attract them, rather obviously. Bind them, possibly.
Which would make it a bad idea to take possession of an entire barrow
treasure. The Mummy's curse motif. :-)
> [12] Tom may not know a lot about what goes on Eastward, but he knows a lot
> about his neighborhood. Does he knowledge of Bree come from Farmer Maggot
> as well?
Tom has more contacts than Maggot. He has been told of Frodo coming
(from the Wandering Companies, no doubt), and he knows of the Rangers,
and I imagine would stay in touch with them.
What is strange is that no one in Rivendell seems to remember Tom.
After all, Rivendell ought to be in touch with the Rangers and the
Wandering Companies alike. But I am getting ahead of schedule. :-)
-SK-
--
perl -e 'print "Just another Perl ${\(trickster and hacker)},";'
The Sidhekin *proves* Sidhe did it!
Een Wilde Ier
Where is TEUNC when you need it?
(oh, I forgot!)
Een Wilde Ier
Done!
Een Wilde Ier
Are you sure you're old enough to hear that one?
Belba Grubb from Stock
>Thanks. I discovered that as I set out to write it. There is a lot of
>detail in this chapter.
And yet so much of it is left imprecisely explained -- why the hobbits
stop at the standing stone in the first place and then fall asleep, as
you point out; the fog itself and how Frodo gets separated from his
companions, even Sam; and so forth. It's very evocative of the
overall spooky mood. Battles and "they went from Point A to Point B"
sorts of things would be much easier to sum up.
>I get the impression from the way the fog seemed to hem the Hobbits in, and
>then the way in which they fell asleep for an entire afternoon and right
>untils unset, that there was an active agent involved. The narrator never
>comes out and says it, but that's the impression I get.
As above. What was the significance of the standing stone, I wonder?
Truly a warning, perhaps, but from whom?
>> Was it right of Tom to send them out this way without guidance?
>
>As I say elsewhere in the points of interest, I wonder whether Tom was a
>stalker. Twice he seems close at hand.
Another similarity to Beorn, perhaps (g). But the interval of time
before his song is heard (amazing that it penetrates the barrow walls)
is so short (deliciously described as "a long slow moment"); and he's
so slow later on that he has to go get Fatty Lumpkin to accompany the
hobbits to the border; it's easier for me to believe that the rhyme
just brought him "magically" (I hesitate to use that word here or in
any discussion of JRRT's works, but it's difficult to find another
word that works as well). To answer your question, IMHO he is able to
move to any point within his little land very quickly, if called upon
in the correct way. Why or how, I don't know. He just does it.
>The only thing about this that made me wonder is that the Hobbits were
>supposedly in the barrow of the last prince of Cardolan (killed in 1409 TA).
>That's a two century delay between that prince's death and the Great Plague.
>Thinking now, I suppose that the king of Cardolan, being one of the
>Dunedain, could have outlasted his son by that length of time, though it
>does seem, as memory recalls, that by this point the lifespan of the
>Numenoreans had dwindled considerably.
I agree with Bruce here that the remnants of Cardolan could have held
out long after the royal house disappeared. What would the difference
have been between the royal house of Cardolan and that of the
remaining part of Arnor -- Arthedain -- be anyway?
>> No wonder Bombadil was saddened by the memory. The dike seen in this
>> chapter, the boundary of a kingdom: would that have been one of the
>> northern boundaries between Cardolan and Arthedain?
>
>I seem to recall the Barrow-downs were in Cardolan.
They were. I think this boundary marker is a little north of the
Downs, nearer the Road. The Road was the main marker between the two
kingdoms, wasn't it? Perhaps there was some small inset in the
territorial line at one time.
>> I had always thought it was Sauron -- the Witch-King's boss -- but
>> with the mention of the Sun and Moon, it could well be Morgoth,
>> Sauron's boss.
>
>That bit of wording makes me wonder... a little at least. Those spirits,
>whatever they were, were sent out of Angmar, so obviously were working for
>Sauron.
But in the last chapter Tom did tell us, very briefly, about "the Dark
Lord" who "came from outside." But that wight was very, very close to
getting the Ring, which certainly would have ended up with Sauron
somehow.
By the way, anybody, did JRRT invent these sorts of wights or are they
found in other mystic lore? Do they really populate the Isle (BG)?
Barb
Belba Grubb from Stock
wrote:
Three cheers for Hasan! Yay! Say hi to Barliman for me...
Barb
Hashemon Urtasman
Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:
I will, but I'm sure he'll forget that I said anything for a couple of
hours!
Hasan
Henriette
my nicknames)and Hashemon Urtasman, and he'll be so confused he may
even for ever remember!
Henriette
Igenlode Wordsmith
> Chapter 8 - Fog on the Barrow Downs
[snip]
> Frodo cries out "Where are you?" and is answered by a deep, cold
> voice saying "Here! I am waiting for you."
This part, which I had quite forgotten, gives me the shivers.
I don't quite know why, but it reminds me of a children's book that I
once encountered, at quite an advanced age, called "The Taily-Po".
There was a hunter who once trapped a strange animal, but only cut off
its tail. He keeps the tail for a trophy. And for the rest of the book
he is stalked by this monster, with the constant refrain of "You know,
and I know, that all I want is my taily-po..." Finally he ends up
*eating* the tail. And that night the creature gets into his hut,
despite all his fortifications, and he hears its dreadful voice
speaking out of the dark. And... well, as he starts to scream, you can
guess how it gets its tail back. Ugh.
For some reason this book - which had fallen completely flat with its
intended audience, a singularly unimaginative little boy - scared me
silly. Even now, remembering it, I find myself queerly reluctant to go
back along the cold, dark corridors after my usual fashion without a
light...
[snip]
> When Frodo awakes he finds himself in the barrow. He sees his companions
> with faces looking deathly pale.
Where does the mysterious light come from, that appears to emanate from
beside Frodo himself? Is it from the sword he catches up - does it
shine in the presence of Wights, after the fashion of Sting? I did
wonder, since when the sword breaks the light goes out.
But one would have thought that Frodo would have noticed a glowing
blade - and I would not have expected a sword enchanted in such a
manner to break on encountering the flesh of the creature against which
it was bespelled. (Although Merry's Barrow-blade will... but it does
not glow in the Witch-king's presence, or if it does so then this is
nowhere mentioned.)
So what *is* the source of this mighty convenient light? One is
reminded of the strangely common glowing fungus that illuminates so
many fantasy caverns for the explorer's benefit :-)
Or is it some part of the Barrow-wights' evil, and associated with
whatever ritual is about to take place?
(Again, as with Old Man Willow, I find myself wondering what such
non-corporeal beings plan to *do*, precisely, with their prey. In this
case, it looks like some kind of sacrifice. We know that the hobbits
are infused in some manner with memories from out of the past -
memories belonging to the barrows' original inhabitants, apparently,
and not to the Wights. So just which *is* going on, and what do the
Wights get out of it?)
If Frodo *had* put on the Ring, would he have been invisible to the
Wight? I suspect not. But on the other hand, I somehow feel that the
Ring would have been of no particular significance to a Barrow-wight;
that it would have been just one more magical treasure for the hoard,
to be hidden away through long ages. The Ring itself would doubtless
have ensured in the end that it was found, by some grave-robber or
thieving rodent, but I doubt that the Wight would ever have desired to
use it or bring it to Sauron - being, as I see it, no servant to Sauron
but a lingering malignant evil of its own.
[snip]
> Knowing nothing else to do, Frodo sings out the song Tom Bombadil taught
> them.
I had completely forgotten Tom Bombadil by this point :-)
Did anyone else remember him, and think that Frodo should have called
for help earlier? Or do you think it was very clever of Frodo to have
recalled him at all in such surroundings?
[snip]
> [10] What is with old Bombadil anyways? Is he some sort of stalker? Was he
> following the Hobbits, or was this just another coincidence, or is he able
> to move to any corner of his land if called upon?
I think the song summoned him, like rubbing Aladdin's Lamp. I don't
believe for a moment that he just happened to be within a few yards of
Frodo at the instant he was needed :-)
Tom and Goldberry are basically fairy-tale people, from the world of
hobs and brownies rather than Valinor and Westernesse; and the concept
of a summoning rhyme surely has ample precedent there. Even though at
present I can't call any to mind!
[snip]
> We know that one of those swords will later play some role in
> the Witch King's demise. Why would such a sword be buried in a noble
> man of Westernesse's grave?
This has been said, but - they're very valuable. What other kind of
weapon would you expect to find in a heap of treasure, a rusty old
knife? :-)
[snip]
> [11d] Apparently it takes more than just evicting a wight to permanently
> keep a barrow empty. The treasures within were left to be picked up by
> "'all finders, birds, beasts, Elves or Men, and all kindly creatures'; for
> so the spell of the mound should be broken and scattered and no Wight ever
> come back to it." This indicates clearly to me that the wights inhabit the
> barrows in part to the treasures, or that the treasures attract them or bind
> them to it.
I think the wights are attracted to the treasure, like Smaug. But this
also reminds me of the idea of scattering a magical enemy's bones to the
four winds, so that he cannot somehow re-form - in a sense destroying
the wight by destroying the entity of the hoard.
Are they not based on Scandinavian myth of some kind - I forget which?
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
* It takes self-confidence to be able to accept criticism *
Hashemon Urtasman
I agree, we'd better use aliases instead of our real names to make it
simpler. Oh wait... ;)
Hasan
> Henriette
Glenn Holliday
>
Good work. Thanks Aaron.
> ------------------
> [1] Here Frodo has another dream, this one clearly of Tol Eressea. If I may
...
> What was the purpose of this dream, and who
> sent it to Frodo?
I'm not convinced that this dream was specifically sent.
In fact, the only dream in LOTR that I'm sure has an ulterior motive
is the one that sends Boromir questing. Frodo's dreams may be
random glimpses, foreshadowing other themes in LOTR and the
larger myth. If they are intentional, they are strengthening
him for his task by giving him tastes of the larger reality
around him.
> [4] The Barrow-downs are a land filled with strange stones, and certainly
> must have been, even on a normal day, quite an ominous place. It's a wonder
> that the Hobbits chose to stop and quite literally put their backs against a
> tall standing stone in the middle of a hollow. Was there some other agent
> or power at work here?
Barrows and standing stones are common in Britain
and much of Europe. I've read lots of stories of hikers taking
picnics by one. Tolkien doesn't say so, but he might be
assuming this landscape is more familiar and less threatening
to hobbits than it is to American readers.
> [9] What a chilly little incantation the Barrow-wight speaks. One verse
> seems a little curious; "till the Sun fails and the Moon is dead." What a
> creepy passage. It rather makes me wonder which Dark Lord the wight is
> talking about.
Is the Wight a formerly living servant of a recent dark lord? Or is it
a never-enfleshed immortal? If the latter, it may have come into
Arda following Melkor.
> [10] What is with old Bombadil anyways? Is he some sort of stalker? Was he
> following the Hobbits, or was this just another coincidence, or is he able
> to move to any corner of his land if called upon?
This is what I don't like about this chapter. Bombadil comes from
fairy tales of a different style than the rest of Tolkien's myth.
This theme of "come when called" is found in English stories.
Just this afternoon I happened to be reading a bit of the Gesta
Romanarum in which the Lady of Solace comes when a knight in trouble
calls on her.
But IMHO it doesn't work well enough here. Tom's first appearance
at Old Man Willow feels like we're in a fairy tale. His second
appearance at the barrow feels like deus ex machina.
> [10a] Whatever the explanation, I get the impression moreso in the barrow
> than back with Old Man Willow that Tom is a very powerful being. His song
> is so strong that the wight disappears, and topples the inner chamber.
Yes. Reminds me of Luthien singing the tower down, and later
Galadriel toppling the tower.
> [11a] First the brooch. Tom remembers who it belonged to, clearly, and
> remembers her to be quite fair. Any idea how long Tom's been hanging around
> the land between the Barrow-downs and the Old Forest?
Tom's description in the previous chapter says he was here
and knew "the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before
the Dark Lord came from Outside." That would be with the first
entry of the Valar and Maiar into Middle-Earth, before Melkor
began to trash it.
That doesn't limit Tom to his current stomping grounds for
that long, but he's clearly had plenty of time to learn
everything there is to be known about this area.
> [12] Tom may not know a lot about what goes on Eastward, but he knows a lot
> about his neighborhood. Does he knowledge of Bree come from Farmer Maggot
> as well?
I wouldn't be surprised if Tom travels to Bree on occasion.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
John Jones
news:o1us409ua3h20rkg8...@4ax.com...
> By the way, anybody, did JRRT invent these sorts of wights or are they
> found in other mystic lore? Do they really populate the Isle (BG)?
>
Kristian Damm Jensen
> AC wrote:
>>
<snip>
>> [12] Tom may not know a lot about what goes on Eastward, but he
>> knows a lot about his neighborhood. Does he knowledge of Bree come
>> from Farmer Maggot as well?
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if Tom travels to Bree on occasion.
I would.
"Tom's country ends here: he will not pass the borders.
Tom has his house to mind, and Goldberry is waiting!"
Which begs the question: I Tom never leaves his country, how does he meet
Farmer Maggot? Does Farmer Maggot cross the river and enter the forest just
to chat with Tom?
--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
Conway's Law: In any organization there will always be one person who
knows what is going on. This person must be fired.
AC
Kristian Damm Jensen <REdam...@ofir.dk> wrote:
> Glenn Holliday wrote:
>> AC wrote:
>>>
><snip>
>
>>> [12] Tom may not know a lot about what goes on Eastward, but he
>>> knows a lot about his neighborhood. Does he knowledge of Bree come
>>> from Farmer Maggot as well?
>>
>> I wouldn't be surprised if Tom travels to Bree on occasion.
>
> I would.
>
> "Tom's country ends here: he will not pass the borders.
> Tom has his house to mind, and Goldberry is waiting!"
Yes, and farther on at the Council of Elrond we are told that he has set
borders for himself which he will not cross. I doubt very much that Tom
goes an inch further than the Road
>
> Which begs the question: I Tom never leaves his country, how does he meet
> Farmer Maggot? Does Farmer Maggot cross the river and enter the forest just
> to chat with Tom?
I'm certain it is Farmer Maggot who crosses the Brandywine and visits
Bombadil.
Troels Forchhammer
<jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> enriched us with:
> "AC" <mightym...@yahoo.ca> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:slrnc4niio.174....@alder.alberni.net...
>
>> [1] Here Frodo has another dream, this one clearly of Tol
>> Eressea.
[...]
>> What was the purpose of this dream, and who sent it to Frodo?
>
> Perhaps this dream was not sent by anyone. It may have been a
> vague sort of foresight on Frodo's part, the convoluted time of a
> mythical setting rather than the linear time of the real world.
I like that phrase "the convoluted time of mythical setting ..." ;-)
My impression of foresight in Middle-earth, however, is that it is
usually sent - it is, so to speak, a gift.
I don't mean that it is necessarily given anew in every occurrence - I
think it is given to Frodo as part of him being chosen, being meant to
take the One Ring to Mount Doom.
We have discussed Frodo's dreams before in the chapter discussions.
They first trace is in I,2 where "strange visions of mountains that he
had never seen came into his dreams," and in I,5 we had the dream where
in his dream a "great desire came over him to [...] see the Sea" - and
now this.
The two latter dreams contain some specifically Elvish motifs - the
longing for the Sea and for Aman. Where Faramir dreams of the drowning
of Númenor, Frodo dreams of the land that lay beyond Númenor.
I am sure that these dreams serve a purpose beyond mere foreshadowing -
perhaps the longing for Heaven is meant to inspire and sustain Frodo
spiritually through his quest, or perhaps they are meant to emphasize
the Elvish quality in Frodo (is it accidental that these dreams start
after he has been named an elf-friend; something which Goldberry is
able to see by the "light in his eyes" and hear by "the ring in his
voice"?)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
A Thaum is the basic unit of magical strength. It has been universally
established as the amount of magic needed to create one small white
pigeon or three normal sized billiard balls.
- (Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic)
Hashemon Urtasman
Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message <news:JY73c.5559$ZB7....@news.get2net.dk> "Raven"
> <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> enriched us with:
>
>
>>"AC" <mightym...@yahoo.ca> skrev i en meddelelse
>>news:slrnc4niio.174....@alder.alberni.net...
>>
>>
>>>[1] Here Frodo has another dream, this one clearly of Tol
>>>Eressea.
>
> [...]
>
>>> What was the purpose of this dream, and who sent it to Frodo?
>>
>> Perhaps this dream was not sent by anyone. It may have been a
>>vague sort of foresight on Frodo's part, the convoluted time of a
>>mythical setting rather than the linear time of the real world.
>
>
> I like that phrase "the convoluted time of mythical setting ..." ;-)
>
> My impression of foresight in Middle-earth, however, is that it is
> usually sent - it is, so to speak, a gift.
If it's a gift, then it is the gift of nature (a la eyesight) and not
anything supernaturally given to intelligent beings only. Even the
animals share it. Cf. Tom's saying that ponies hade more foresight than
the hobbits, they sensed the danger and ran away before the hobbits did.
>
> I don't mean that it is necessarily given anew in every occurrence - I
> think it is given to Frodo as part of him being chosen, being meant to
> take the One Ring to Mount Doom.
I think there is a better explanation. Dreams come because when when
the conscious mind blocks something out, the unconscious mind brings it
back to the fore by means of dreams and various influences. Since Frodo
was probably thinking of the journey, concentrating on the here-and-now,
the dreams were there to balance the perspective by presenting the
long-view of the earth.
So maybe it's normal for every hero who begins a quest, to dream about it.
Hasan
Troels Forchhammer
AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> enriched us with:
> Chapter 8 - Fog on the Barrow Downs
<snip synopsis>
> [2] Frodo is again named Elf-friend, this time by Goldberry.
Who divined it by his eyes and ears. And his dreams have some clear
Elvish motifs in the longing for the Sea and Aman. The Elvish 'feel' to
Frodo is being strongly emphasized here - is there a reason for that
other than to show that he is nobler than his companions?
> As well, Frodo is greatly distressed that he has not given his
> fairwells to Goldberry. Why is Frodo so taken with her?
He felt "his heart moved with a joy that he did not understand" and
comparing his impression of her to that of the Elves we hear that "but
the spell that was now laid upon him was different: less keen and lofty
was the delight, but deeper and nearer to mortal heart; marvellous and
yet not strange." I don't suppose that we're meant to read the use of
'spell' literally to mean that she has cast a magical spell upon him,
but there is definitely something about Goldberry - a kind of power it
seems.
[...]
> [5] There must certainly be some power here, or at least the
> narrator strongly suggests that it was more than riding, food and
> drink.
That is my impression as well - I can't put my finger on it, but the
wording suggests that the reasons listed in the text are, perhaps,
/not/ enough to explain that they fell asleep. Brilliant how the
statement that they, perhaps, are enough, the opposite effect is
achieved - a strong suggestion that they probably aren't.
> This is where this chapter turns into one of the darker passages.
> Others may disagree but this is where I feel that LotR really begins
> to show its greatness and grandeur.
I'd say that /The Shadow of the Past/ has its moments as well ;-)
> As well, this chapter indicates to me that if Tolkien had wanted to,
> he could have made a fine writer in the horror genre.
That's a common element in many of the best fairy-tales, IMO. A lot of
the old folk-tales the Grimm brothers collected are good examples of
that. But yes, Tolkien could definitely build an atmosphere of
suspense.
[...]
> [8] [...] I imagine this has been discussed many a time, but what
> were these spirits? Are they perhaps Maiar of some kind, or are they
> Men like the Nazgul or the Dead Men of Dunharrow?
It seems to me that there are more spirits than Maiar (or perhaps more
kinds of Maiar) - Goldberry is another possible non-Maia incarnated
spirit in the book.
Could the spirits of men refuse the "summoning" to go to first Mandos
and then beyond Arda upon their dead? We know that Beren refused to
leave Mandos before he had met Lúthien, but could others have refused
to go even that far? And would a great sorceror have been able to give
them some kind of body?
> [9] What a chilly little incantation the Barrow-wight speaks. One
> verse seems a little curious; "till the Sun fails and the Moon is
> dead." What a creepy passage. It rather makes me wonder which
> Dark Lord the wight is talking about.
"till the dark lord lifts his hand
over dead sea and withered land"
The "dead sea and withered land" sounds to me more like something out
of Morgoth's wish-list than out of Sauron's. This line sounds more
nihilistic than Sauron, who, I believe, wanted to control lands and
people, not to destroy them as Morgoth wished.
If this is so, then the Barrow-wights might be some of the least
spirits of Morgoth's following ...
Glenn Holliday
>
> Glenn Holliday wrote:
>
> > I wouldn't be surprised if Tom travels to Bree on occasion.
>
> I would.
>
> "Tom's country ends here: he will not pass the borders.
> Tom has his house to mind, and Goldberry is waiting!"
>
> Which begs the question: I Tom never leaves his country, how does he meet
> Farmer Maggot? Does Farmer Maggot cross the river and enter the forest just
> to chat with Tom?
Yes, but I don't believe Tom must obey that rule. He's too anarchic.
Tolkien's poem "Bombadil Goes Boating" has Tom taking the river
Brandywine to Mithe Steps, where Maggot gives him a ride in his
wagon to Maggot's farmhouse.
Of course, Tom may consider Maggot's farm within his borders.
In his farewell instructions, Tom says Bree is only 4 miles
from the point he will not cross. I'm aware he says he will not
pass his borders, but all the same, I wouldn't be surprised
if he wanders further when the mood strikes him.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
AC
> In message <news:slrnc4niio.174....@alder.alberni.net>
> AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> enriched us with:
>> [5] There must certainly be some power here, or at least the
>> narrator strongly suggests that it was more than riding, food and
>> drink.
>
> That is my impression as well - I can't put my finger on it, but the
> wording suggests that the reasons listed in the text are, perhaps,
> /not/ enough to explain that they fell asleep. Brilliant how the
> statement that they, perhaps, are enough, the opposite effect is
> achieved - a strong suggestion that they probably aren't.
What really has amazed me about this chapter, now that I have analyzed it a
bit more closely, is how Tolkien can evoke an eery mood so very well. I
feel the warmth of the day, the coolness of the fog and Frodo's fear and
anger at being parted from his companions. A rather extraordinary chapter.
> [...]
>
>> [8] [...] I imagine this has been discussed many a time, but what
>> were these spirits? Are they perhaps Maiar of some kind, or are they
>> Men like the Nazgul or the Dead Men of Dunharrow?
>
> It seems to me that there are more spirits than Maiar (or perhaps more
> kinds of Maiar) - Goldberry is another possible non-Maia incarnated
> spirit in the book.
Yes I agree. I think it's possible, with entities like Bombadil, that there
may be things other than those that show up in the Ainulindale.
>
> Could the spirits of men refuse the "summoning" to go to first Mandos
> and then beyond Arda upon their dead? We know that Beren refused to
> leave Mandos before he had met Lúthien, but could others have refused
> to go even that far? And would a great sorceror have been able to give
> them some kind of body?
I don't think that most Men could. There are examples like the Dead Men and
Gorlim, who stick around for a lesser or greater amount of time. In Beren's
case, there was, as with all things he did, a lot of fate involved.
>
>> [9] What a chilly little incantation the Barrow-wight speaks. One
>> verse seems a little curious; "till the Sun fails and the Moon is
>> dead." What a creepy passage. It rather makes me wonder which
>> Dark Lord the wight is talking about.
>
> "till the dark lord lifts his hand
> over dead sea and withered land"
>
> The "dead sea and withered land" sounds to me more like something out
> of Morgoth's wish-list than out of Sauron's. This line sounds more
> nihilistic than Sauron, who, I believe, wanted to control lands and
> people, not to destroy them as Morgoth wished.
>
> If this is so, then the Barrow-wights might be some of the least
> spirits of Morgoth's following ...
I really got that impression that the wight might be talking about Morgoth.
Perhaps these spirits that inhabited the barrows after the fall of Cardolan
were in fact old servants of Morgoth, Ainur like Sauron (though probably of
lesser might) who had been hanging around when Angmar was still around, and
were sent to do a little haunting.
The only thing I can't quite figure out is why. Was it to keep the Dunedain
of the North from regaining Cardolan? Or was it just to cause trouble for
greedy folk that might try to dig into the barrows? Or was it merely just
another way of depressing real-estate prices in Eriador?
AC
I'm not so certain that I accept that particular book of poems as canonical.
In LotR, and particularly at the Council of Elrond, it's made very clear
that Tom has set borders for himself which he will not cross.
Troels Forchhammer
<news:Md64c.1664$wBa1...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Hashemon Urtasman <nos...@spam.com> enriched us with:
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
>> My impression of foresight in Middle-earth, however, is that it
>> is usually sent - it is, so to speak, a gift.
>
> If it's a gift, then it is the gift of nature (a la eyesight) and
> not anything supernaturally given to intelligent beings only.
> Even the animals share it. Cf. Tom's saying that ponies hade more
> foresight than the hobbits, they sensed the danger and ran away
> before the hobbits did.
No mention of foresight there - solely of the ponies having more "sense
in their noses."
Foresight (or premonition, prophecy or whatever you choose to call it)
is apparently uncommon in Middle-earth, and it seems to serve a purpose
beyond that of merely being a natural part of Middle-earth.
We know also of Gandalf having some premonitions (is that the correct
word, I wonder); both about Bilbo coming with the Dwarves in /The
Hobbit/ (UT, 'The Quest of Erebor') and about Bilbo being meant to find
the Ring and Frodo meant to have it (I,2). I don't recall if it is ever
stated explicitly, but I got the very strong impression that these were
directly related to his position as emmisary for the Valar.
Other examples of foresight/prophecy are Glorfindel's prophecy about
the Witch-king, the words of Malbeth the Seer, Gilraen's last words to
her son ("Ónen i-Estel Edain, ú-chebin estel anim"). One example in
particular stands out in this connection: the dream sent to Faramir and
Boromir; this is obviously something which is sent specifically by an
external power, and though I believe that Frodo's foresight was of
another kind, I am sure that it was no less supernatural in origin.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it
would be a merrier world.
- Thorin Oakenshield, 'The Hobbit' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Belba Grubb from Stock
Thanks. It's difficult to find definitions of "wight" online, but a
Google search just now for "what is a wight" drew up the Web
definition via a Princeton Word Net 2 search: "wight - a human being;
`wight' is an archaic term"
No other information about derivation, usage, etc. Makes one think
seriously about subscribing to the OED online....
Also, per the history page of the Isle of Wight nostalgia site at
http://www.invectis.co.uk/iow/history.htm , the Isle of Wight got its
name "around 1900 BC [when] the Beaker people arrived - so called from
their distinctive pottery. They called the Island Wiht (weight)
meaning raised or what rises over the sea. Then the Romans arrived in
43 AD and translated Wiht into the name Vectis from the Latin veho
meaning lifting."
So we have "human being" associated with "what rises over the sea" (as
a barrow would). While the Barrowdowns are not near the sea one can't
help but wonder if JRRT was influenced by some place like the South
Downs in Kent near Eastbourne, that do look out over the channel.
The Danes and the Vikings visited the Isle (not peacefully). One
wonders if they might have brought some "wight" mythology or terms
there, also?
Barb
Belba Grubb from Stock
<REdam...@ofir.dk> wrote:
>> I wouldn't be surprised if Tom travels to Bree on occasion.
>
>I would.
>
>"Tom's country ends here: he will not pass the borders.
>Tom has his house to mind, and Goldberry is waiting!"
But later on we will discover that Tom sends Merry's ponies back to
Butterbur after he (Tom) hears the news of the raid on the Inn.
Perhaps he doesn't leave his borders himself, but somehow he gets news
of happenings in Bree (and knows enough of the Inn to recommend it to
the hobbits).
Barb
Celaeno
>The Danes and the Vikings visited the Isle (not peacefully). One
>wonders if they might have brought some "wight" mythology or terms
>there, also?
There's always the vette, which was a generic term for supernatural
creatures, also known as the people who lived under hills. They could
be good or evil, but weren't ghosts. The word has been etymologically
compared to the gothic word waíhts (thing), the anglo-saxon word wiht
(thing, creature, demon) and the middle lower german word wicht
(creature). Incorrect, cutified and embarrassing little speech about
'vetter' was delivered 10 years ago at the Lillehammer olympics by Liv
Ullmann *shudders at memory*
Cel
Henriette
> Henriette wrote:
> > Say hi to Barliman from The Grubb, Iniyarutti (some of Barb's and
> > my nicknames)and Hashemon Urtasman, and he'll be so confused he may
> > even for ever remember!
>
> I agree, we'd better use aliases instead of our real names to make it
> simpler. Oh wait... ;)
>
LOL. I actually meant Barliman would be so confused by the difficulty
(at least to a native speaker of a Germanic language.....), or in the
case of The Grubb, the strangeness, of the names....
Henriette
Hashemon Urtasman
Henriette wrote:
>
> LOL. I actually meant Barliman would be so confused by the difficulty
> (at least to a native speaker of a Germanic language.....), or in the
> case of The Grubb, the strangeness, of the names....
>
I'll try naming myself something more Bree-like: "Hesse Urdaman"
(Urd comes from Norse mythology, the name of a giant with a computer
screen, err...a well.)
Hasan
Belba Grubb from Stock
<cel...@choklit.nospam.org> wrote:
>There's always the vette, which was a generic term for supernatural
>creatures, also known as the people who lived under hills. They could
>be good or evil, but weren't ghosts. The word has been etymologically
>compared to the gothic word waíhts (thing), the anglo-saxon word wiht
>(thing, creature, demon) and the middle lower german word wicht
>(creature). Incorrect, cutified and embarrassing little speech about
>'vetter' was delivered 10 years ago at the Lillehammer olympics by Liv
>Ullmann *shudders at memory*
ooh, glad I missed it! Thanks for the background. I am really
starting to believe that JRRT created these wights, that is, made them
very real and palpable characters in a sense even stronger than what
he did for elves and goblins/orcs, whom perhaps one could say he
reworked. That's quite impressive, especially given their relatively
small role in the overall story.
Barb
Shanahan
>In message <news:JY73c.5559$ZB7....@news.get2net.dk> "Raven" enriched us with:
>>> Eressea.
>>
>> Perhaps this dream was not sent by anyone. It may have been a
>> vague sort of foresight on Frodo's part, the convoluted time of a
>> mythical setting rather than the linear time of the real world.
>
>usually sent - it is, so to speak, a gift.
>I don't mean that it is necessarily given anew in every occurrence - I
>think it is given to Frodo as part of him being chosen, being meant to
>take the One Ring to Mount Doom.
>
>We have discussed Frodo's dreams before in the chapter discussions.
>They first trace is in I,2 where "strange visions of mountains that he
>had never seen came into his dreams," and in I,5 we had the dream where
>in his dream a "great desire came over him to [...] see the Sea" - and
>now this.
>The two latter dreams contain some specifically Elvish motifs - the
>longing for the Sea and for Aman. Where Faramir dreams of the drowning
>of Númenor, Frodo dreams of the land that lay beyond Númenor.
>
Yet Frodo had felt the longing to see and hear the Sea all his life..."a
sound he had never heard in waking life, but one which had often haunted
his dreams" (dreams which came before he ever inherited the Ring). Which
implies that his gift of foresight was inborn, as it was in Aragorn and
many Numenoreans, as well as Elves. I've just always read this as a
marker of Frodo's 'fey' quality, in a way his essential un-hobbitness.
Perhaps the gift you speak of was given at birth.
>[snip]... (is it accidental that these dreams start
>after he has been named an elf-friend; something which Goldberry is
>able to see by the "light in his eyes" and hear by "the ring in his
>voice"?)
I don't think they do.
- Ciaran S.
_____________________________________
"It should be remembered that we had all grown up with
Civil Defense drills and dreams of the bomb at night: we
had been promised the end of the world as children,
and we weren't getting it."
-england's dreaming
Shanahan
>> AC wrote:
>>> [12] Tom may not know a lot about what goes on Eastward, but he
>>> knows a lot about his neighborhood. Does he knowledge of Bree come
>>> from Farmer Maggot as well?
>>
>> I wouldn't be surprised if Tom travels to Bree on occasion.
>
>I would.
>
>"Tom's country ends here: he will not pass the borders.
>Tom has his house to mind, and Goldberry is waiting!"
In earlier-written versions of this chapter, Tom was not bound to these
self-imposed borders. He did in fact visit Bree very often, so much so
that he told the hobbits to use his name to the innkeeper as a reference.
Tolkien later decided that he should keep Tom within these voluntary
bounds; I believe it had something to do with the Ring's power, although I
don't quite recall exactly. I'll look it up.
Henriette
and besides, we all have to do some adapting here, with different
nationalities, different forms of English and easy and difficult
names. Just remain who you are, name and all, I am glad you are here
and glad that some people are brave enough to post here, coming from a
minority (on AFT, that is). Like yourself, Archie, Morthond, and
Pradera when he was still posting here.
But if you are longing for a change: Hesse you will be!
Henriette
Henriette
used in combination with a word that indicates that she is either
nasty or silly. There must be a common root somewhere with the word
"witch", which incidently is indicated by a completely different word
in Dutch: heks.
(Grubb: Another post by 3 women)
Henriette
Taemon
> Foresight (or premonition, prophecy or whatever you
> choose to call it) is apparently uncommon in
> Middle-earth, and it seems to serve a purpose beyond that
> of merely being a natural part of Middle-earth.
I see a lot of references to foresight. The text is sprinkled
with "It might be that..." and "My heart tells me that..." which
are invariably correct. Even Pippin has a sense of foresight
once, though I don't remember where.
T.
Taemon
> The Dutch word "wicht" is an archaic form of "girl",
> nowadays only used in combination with a word that indicates
that she
> is either nasty or silly.
If you really want to be rude, you add "ge" in front of it.
> There must be a common root somewhere
> with the word "witch", which incidently is indicated by a
> completely different word in Dutch: heks.
I never thought of that. It sounds logical.
T.
Raven
news:20040311173552...@mb-m10.aol.com...
> >From: "Raven" jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam
> >I should not be surprised if Tom has conversations with Barliman too.
> >And/or with Rangers.
> But would they have to come to him to talk? Tome won't go past his lands.
> How far do those lands extend?
If Tom won't go past his lands, and these consist only of the Old Forest
and the Barrow Downs, then he does not visit Bree. But he certainly knows
of the Prancing Pony and of Butterbur - who on his part is very probably too
busy to go outside Bree village. This suggests that Tom has dealings only
indirectly with Bree, through travellers. We know that he has contact with
farmer Maggot, who quite possibly enters the Old Forest like Bucklanders
sometimes do. Though it is possible that Tom regards the Shire, or parts of
it such as until the Woody End, as parts of his country - which does not
mean the country that he rules, but the country that he stays in. In this
case he may visit hobbits, while very probably keeping himself a secret to
the majority of them - very certainly he keeps his identity and abode
secret, or Frodo and his companions would have known about him, and very
probably made a beeline for his house rather than being herded in that
general direction by the will of the forest.
As for the Rangers, I find it very probable that he has direct dealings
with them. They protect Breeland and the Shire, possibly from Barrow-wights
as well as from other enemies. This duty probably takes them quite
naturally into the Old Forest, or if it doesn't, then it is because they
know that Tom is there and he is a better guardian there than they can ever
be. If they didn't know of him before they took up their duties as secret
guardians then they must have run into him quickly. Given Tom's hospitality
and friendliness this implies that some of them probably have conversations
with him. Frodo and his friends are probably not Tom's first visitors in
millennia, though he probably does not entertain guests every week.
Voron.
Belba Grubb from Stock
<jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
> As for the Rangers, I find it very probable that he has direct dealings
>with them. They protect Breeland and the Shire, possibly from Barrow-wights
>as well as from other enemies. This duty probably takes them quite
>naturally into the Old Forest, or if it doesn't, then it is because they
>know that Tom is there and he is a better guardian there than they can ever
>be. If they didn't know of him before they took up their duties as secret
>guardians then they must have run into him quickly. Given Tom's hospitality
>and friendliness this implies that some of them probably have conversations
>with him. Frodo and his friends are probably not Tom's first visitors in
>millennia, though he probably does not entertain guests every week.
He might go out of his way to contact them or welcome them into his
land, as he likely had close dealings with the Dunedain during their
long years on the downs in the final years of Cardolan. He cared for
them, certainly, as he is saddened by the memory of the kingdom when
he and the hobbits cross a dike near the road and he also recalls the
woman who wore the blue brooch that was found in the barrow. Tom
might also convey messages between the Rangers and the wandering
companies, as he "heard news" of Frodo's departure from the Shire
(from Gildor's people?) and expected he would end up at the
Withywindle.
Barb
the softrat
>Henriette wrote:
>> There must be a common root somewhere
>> with the word "witch", which incidently is indicated by a
>> completely different word in Dutch: heks.
>
>I never thought of that. It sounds logical.
>
'wight' <-- 'wiht'
'witch' <-- 'wicca'
the softrat
"LotR: Eleven Oscars! Right up there with _Titanic_!"
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"Aim towards the enemy." - Instruction printed on U.S. Army
rocket launcher
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:Xns94AA3D898E...@62.243.74.163:
>> [5] There must certainly be some power here, or at least
>> the narrator strongly suggests that it was more than
>> riding, food and drink.
>
> That is my impression as well - I can't put my finger on it,
> but the wording suggests that the reasons listed in the text
> are, perhaps, /not/ enough to explain that they fell asleep.
> Brilliant how the statement that they, perhaps, are enough,
> the opposite effect is achieved - a strong suggestion that
> they probably aren't.
>
They were warned by Tom, in the previous chapter, that if they
had to pass a barrow, to pass it on the west side. The hilltop
they came to (passage quoted below) was apparently a barrow - an
old one, perhaps, sunken in rather than mounded, but with a
standing stone - as some other hills, which they did recognize
as barrows, to the east of them had. And not only do they not
recognize the hill as a barrow, they sit on the /east/ side of a
standing stone.
The hill was "wide and flattened, like a shallow saucer with a
green mounded rim" the hobbits thought they had not too far to
go, based on Merry's advice about where the road appeared to be.
Frodo said that was good (splendid, actually) and thought with a
full day's riding they would be past the Downs and able to find
a place to camp. "But even as he spoke he turned his glance
eastwards, and he saw that on that side the hills were higher
and looked down upon them; and all those hills were crowned with
green mounds, and on some were standing stones, pointing
upwards like jagged teeth out of green gums."
then the hobbits ride down into the center of the depression on
the hill top,
"...In the midst of it there stood a single stone, standing tall
under the sun above, and at this hour casting no shadow. It was
shapeless yet significant: like a landmark, or guarding finger,
or more like a warning. But they were now hungry, and the sun
was still at the fearless noon; so they set their backs against
the east side of the stone."
In my mind, part of the reason they ended up in the barrow was
the continued inattention and lack of experience the hobbits
showed (they assumed the hilltop they were on had no barrow,
even though it had a standing stone, and thus they didn't follow
Tom's advice, to pass on the /west/ side of the barrow - they
basically had a picnic right atop it) (I believe the standing
stone must have marked the barrow somehow) and part of it was
the power of the barrow wights, under whose spell the hobbits
fell even in the daylight, for they were in such close
proximity. They slept far longer than they should have given
the rest they already had, and awoke to a misty and dismal late
afternoon, (also my opinion - the inner strength of hobbits was
all that allowed them to wake up when they did, and with more
experience in woodsmanship, they might have gotten clear of the
wight) then hurriedly packed up and set off into a thick grey
fog. And soon thereafter, into the cold loveless arms of the
wight.
--
mc
Henriette
> On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:45:08 +0100, "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
> >Henriette wrote:
> >> There must be a common root somewhere
> >> with the word "witch", which incidently is indicated by a
> >> completely different word in Dutch: heks.
> >
> >I never thought of that. It sounds logical.
> >
> That's why it is, of course, wrong.
>
> 'wight' <-- 'wiht'
> 'witch' <-- 'wicca'
>
root, our NL word for witch would be more identical to witch, and not
"heks". Stiil, it remains a strange "coincidence".
Henriette
Henriette
> Henriette wrote:
>
> > The Dutch word "wicht" is an archaic form of "girl",
> > nowadays only used in combination with a word that indicates
> that she
> > is either nasty or silly.
>
> If you really want to be rude, you add "ge" in front of it.
In which case the translation would be "weight". This may also have a
common root with witch! Maybe because the witches were weighed (e.g.
at the "Waag" in Amsterdam). Why were they? When they weighed
*anything* they must be witches, or something? Like when they could
swim, they were supported by the devil and were killed, and if they
could not swim the "problem" solved itself....
>
Something else: today the frontpage of Trouw wrote: Al Kaida. This
spelling probably has its roots in Dutch pronunciation. De Volkskrant
said: Al Qa'ida, which is probably closest to the original spelling.
The Telegraaf wrote: Al-Qaeda.
Henriette
Michael O'Neill
>
> Michael O'Neill wrote:
>
> > I want to hear about how the lap-dancer made Frodo disappear!
>
> No, Michael. The Ring went around his finger. His *FINGER*.
I didn't mean *part* of him, I meant *all* of him...
<sheesh!>
Some people. Sex, sex an dmore sex.
M.
Jamie Armstrong
> "AC" <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote
>
>>[8a] Out of interest, Appendix A also tells us that the Barrow-downs,
>
> or
>
>>Tyrn Gorthad, were in fact originally made by the ancestors of the
>
> Edain
>
>>before they crossed Erid Luin. This would make them very ancient
>
> indeed.
>
> I wonder if any of the still extant structures are supposed to be this
> old, or if he just means the use of the site in this fashion is that
> old. 6,500 years would be an incredibly long time for such neat
> ring-shaped mound of earth to stay intact and recognizable,
Not really: remember that Neolithic monuments (Henges, Barrows,
causewayed enclosures etc) are roughly that old (c.3,500BC = 5,500 years
old).
> and as for
> the standing stones, that might be more plausible in a less geologically
> active part of the world, but with whole parts of the continent being
> split asunder and plunged under the sea only a few hundred miles away
> it's hard to imagine anything that old still standing.
>
I don't see why not: a couple of years ago some friends of mine went to
Turkey and visited some astoundingly well preserved Roman and Byzantine
cities. That part of the world is pretty active for earthquakes.
>>[11] A few neat things about this passage:
>>
>>[11a] First the brooch. Tom remembers who it belonged to, clearly,
>
> and
>
>>remembers her to be quite fair. Any idea how long Tom's been hanging
>
> around
>
>>the land between the Barrow-downs and the Old Forest?
>
>
> We don't seem to have any indication that his home was anywhere else,
> although presumably when the forest was larger he wandered through more
> of it.
>
>
>>[11b] Something of Merry's dream of being attacked by the men of Carn
>
> Dum is
>
>>explained. We know that one of those swords will later play some role
>
> in
>
>>the Witch King's demise. Why would such a sword be buried in a noble
>>man of Westernesse's grave?
>
>
> Does anyone know when this passage was written? The reason I ask is that
> the first treasures from the Sutton Hoo mounds, which far exceeded
> anything found before then in Britain,
Hmmm... Snape and Taplow were in themselves quite rich burials (though
not as rich as many of the Sutton Hoo burials).
> were uncovered in the summer of
> 1939, and the contents of the Barrow sound a lot like the contents of
> the ship at Sutton Hoo.
>
I guess (without looking it up) that Tolkien could have been inspired by
the discoveries at Sutton Hoo: I believe he began work on LotR in 1939,
so these chapters would certainly fit that time frame.
> I was once taught in a college class that many academics had thought the
> burial described for Beowulf must have been an absurd exaggeration, that
> no primitive culture would waste *that* much wealth on a burial, only
> wealthy civilized cultures could do such a thing. But of course Sutton
> Hoo proved them wrong. It remains one of the richest, if not the
> richest, ship-burial sites in Europe. And of course Tolkien had always
> been of the opinion that Beowulf preserved a genuine record of heroic
> age Anglo-Saxon culture, that the customs and attitudes depicted therein
> were not fantasies created by later (9th or 10th century) writers.
>
> It's still unknown whether a body was ever buried at the Sutton Hoo site
> or not; some archaeologists think that perhaps the lack of a body
> indicated that the king (possibly Raedwald of East Anglia) was given a
> Christian burial while still maintaining the pagan custom of a ship
> burial with weapons and treasures, just without his body.
Actually, as far as I know there is pretty much a consensus that there
*was* an inhumation in Mound 1: Martin Carver's excavations in the '80s
and '90s revealed that there was a burial in Mound 2 (which Basil Brown
had previously excavated), but that the sand is very acidic and
destroyed just about the whole of the corpse, leaving only a stain in
the sand. This was reflected across the site where various barrows and
satellite burials were excavated.
Helen Geake and others suggest that the whole Sutton Hoo site actually
represents the 'last stand' (or Final Phase) of Pagan burial in England.
They argue that the sheer wealth of Mound 1 was the Anglian kingdom
sticking two fingers up at the encroachment of Christianity.
> For of course
> burial with such goods was very much a pagan idea, giving the warrior or
> king the use of these treasures in the next world.
>
Well... sort of. Ok, in the later medieval period such wealthy burials
are unheard of, but nevertheless it is not all that unusual to find
furnished inhumations. Certainly it's not a simple matter of 8th century
people flipping over the calendar and going "Oh look dear, now we're all
Christians: better stop chucking all those brooches into the burials
then!". Things are a lot more complex than that, just as you can't
assume that 4th, 5th and 6th century unfurnished east-west burials are
Christian.
> So I'm wondering if Tolkien is saying something about the people who
> piled all the treasures in the barrow, similar to what he says about the
> Numenoreans and the people of Gondor who spent so much time and effort
> building vast mausoleums and contemplating the mysteries of their own
> mortality. Why would such a sword be buried? Perhaps because the prince
> and his people, like we see later in Denethor, were overcome by despair
> in the dying days of Cardolan, and returned to the ways of their heathen
> ancestors, desiring that their worldly goods be heaped about them in
> their graves so that they might take them with them into the next world.
> Better, the author seems to be saying through Bombadil, to let the
> swords be used for their intended purpose, to let the brooch adorn a
> fair and living lady who'll do it justice, and to scatter the rest of
> the treasure under the sun than to horde it all away in the dark to rot
> in the service of a vain (in every sense) quest for immortality.
>
This would certainly fit his own Catholicism.
Jamie
--
"The more I see of the world, the more am I dissatisfied with it; and
every day confirms my belief of the inconsistency of all human
characters, and of the little dependence that can be placed on the
appearance of either merit or sense."
Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice
Jamie Armstrong
:(
Trevor Barrie
AC <mightym...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Kristian Damm Jensen wrote:
>>> Which begs the question: I Tom never leaves his country, how does he meet
>>> Farmer Maggot? Does Farmer Maggot cross the river and enter the forest just
>>> to chat with Tom?
[...]
>In LotR, and particularly at the Council of Elrond, it's made very clear
>that Tom has set borders for himself which he will not cross.
But I don't believe it's made clear where those borders are, or specifically
whether Farmer Maggot's house is within them.
Belba Grubb from Stock
>The Dutch word "wicht" is an archaic form of "girl", nowadays only
>used in combination with a word that indicates that she is either
>nasty or silly. There must be a common root somewhere with the word
>"witch", which incidently is indicated by a completely different word
>in Dutch: heks.
That might explain why, in English, a witch can put a "hex" on
somebody.
>(Grubb: Another post by 3 women)
(Henriette: And, lo!, the firmament of the Earth is not shaken, and
the sun, moon and stars still sail peaceably along their appointed
tracks. Amazing, isn't it...G)
Barb
_____
GARTER, n.
An elastic band intended to keep a woman from coming out of her
stockings and desolating the country.
-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
_____
Taemon
> In which case the translation would be "weight". This may
> also have a common root with witch! Maybe because the witches
were
> weighed (e.g. at the "Waag" in Amsterdam). Why were they? When
they
> weighed *anything* they must be witches, or something?
Witches flew, didn't they? So they had to be light. If you
weighed a normal amount of someone your age and size, you
couldn't be a witch. It seems the Waag saved many lives.
T.
Shanahan
>On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:19:21 -0000, "John Jones" wrote:
>>"Belba Grubb from Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>>> By the way, anybody, did JRRT invent these sorts of wights or are they
>>> found in other mystic lore? Do they really populate the Isle (BG)?
>>>
>>Barrow-dwellers (ghosts) feature in Norse mythology.
>
>Thanks. It's difficult to find definitions of "wight" online, but a
>Google search just now for "what is a wight" drew up the Web
>definition via a Princeton Word Net 2 search: "wight - a human being;
>`wight' is an archaic term"
>
>No other information about derivation, usage, etc. Makes one think
>seriously about subscribing to the OED online....
Well, since I just did that very thing to look up 'trinklet', here's what
the OED says about 'wight'. (Beware Middle English...)
Points to note that might have influenced Tolkien's creation of the
barrow-wights:
the earliest quote is from Beowulf, "Wiht unhælo, grim and grædi" (wight
unholy, grim and greedy?);
its b. definition applies to supernatural or unearthly beings;
it's related to the past tense of a verb which means to put to sleep.
1. A living being in general; a creature. Obs.
Beowulf 120 Wiht unhælo, grim and grædi .
b. orig. and chiefly with (good or bad) epithet, applied to supernatural,
preternatural, or unearthly beings. Obs. or rare arch. In the 17th c.
esp. of the four beasts of the Apocalypse.
c950 Lindisf. Gosp. Mark vi. 49 Phantasma, yfel wiht.
past tense of wecche:
1. trans. To rouse from sleep. (Cf. AWECCHE v. 1.)
c897 ÆLFRED Gregory's Past. C. lxiv. 461 Se kok..ær æm e he crawan wille,
hef up his fi ru, & wec hine selfne.
- Ciaran S.
----------------------------
Hashemon Urtasman
Shanahan wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:28:55 -0600, Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:19:21 -0000, "John Jones" wrote:
>>
>>>"Belba Grubb from Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>By the way, anybody, did JRRT invent these sorts of wights or are they
>>>>found in other mystic lore? Do they really populate the Isle (BG)?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Barrow-dwellers (ghosts) feature in Norse mythology.
>>
>>Thanks. It's difficult to find definitions of "wight" online, but a
>>Google search just now for "what is a wight" drew up the Web
>>definition via a Princeton Word Net 2 search: "wight - a human being;
>>`wight' is an archaic term"
>>
>>No other information about derivation, usage, etc. Makes one think
>>seriously about subscribing to the OED online....
>>Barb
>
>
> Well, since I just did that very thing to look up 'trinklet', here's what
> the OED says about 'wight'. (Beware Middle English...)
>
> Points to note that might have influenced Tolkien's creation of the
> barrow-wights:
> the earliest quote is from Beowulf, "Wiht unhælo, grim and grædi" (wight
> unholy, grim and greedy?);
> its b. definition applies to supernatural or unearthly beings;
> it's related to the past tense of a verb which means to put to sleep.
So it could be a spelling mistake from Beowulf?
Hasan
Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
> Well, since I just did that very thing to look up 'trinklet', here's what
> the OED says about 'wight'. (Beware Middle English...)
> Points to note that might have influenced Tolkien's creation of the
> barrow-wights:
> unholy, grim and greedy?); ...
Hmm, and Tolkien worked on the "W" chapter of the OED in
his first period at Oxford. I wonder if he would have done work
on that word.
--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
Belba Grubb from Stock
<pog...@redsuspenders.com> wrote:
>Points to note that might have influenced Tolkien's creation of the
>barrow-wights:
>the earliest quote is from Beowulf, "Wiht unhælo, grim and grædi" (wight
>unholy, grim and greedy?);
Brrr - that right there would fit my idea of a Wight.
>its b. definition applies to supernatural or unearthly beings;
>it's related to the past tense of a verb which means to put to sleep.
These, too, seem to fit the scene (with the hapless hobbits having
been put to sleep, except for Frodo, and Tom's waking them up).
> 1. A living being in general; a creature. Obs.
>Beowulf 120 Wiht unhælo, grim and grædi .
>
>b. orig. and chiefly with (good or bad) epithet, applied to supernatural,
>preternatural, or unearthly beings. Obs. or rare arch. In the 17th c.
>esp. of the four beasts of the Apocalypse.
>c950 Lindisf. Gosp. Mark vi. 49 Phantasma, yfel wiht.
>
>past tense of wecche:
>
>1. trans. To rouse from sleep. (Cf. AWECCHE v. 1.)
>c897 ÆLFRED Gregory's Past. C. lxiv. 461 Se kok..ær æm e he crawan wille,
>hef up his fi ru, & wec hine selfne.
What an old word, some 1300 years old now at least. Adds a whole
'nother dimention to the first line of Tom's song in the barrow: "Get
out, you old Wight!"
Barb
Shanahan
>Shanahan wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:28:55 -0600, Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:
>>>On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:19:21 -0000, "John Jones" wrote:
>>>>Barrow-dwellers (ghosts) feature in Norse mythology.
>>>
>>>Thanks. It's difficult to find definitions of "wight" online, but a
>>>Google search just now for "what is a wight" drew up the Web
>>>definition via a Princeton Word Net 2 search: "wight - a human being;
>>>`wight' is an archaic term"
>>>
>>>No other information about derivation, usage, etc. Makes one think
>>>seriously about subscribing to the OED online....
>>>Barb
>>
>>
>> Well, since I just did that very thing to look up 'trinklet', here's what
>>
>> Points to note that might have influenced Tolkien's creation of the
>> barrow-wights:
>
>> the earliest quote is from Beowulf, "Wiht unhælo, grim and grædi" (wight
>> unholy, grim and greedy?);
>> its b. definition applies to supernatural or unearthly beings;
>> it's related to the past tense of a verb which means to put to sleep.
>
>So it could be a spelling mistake from Beowulf?
>
>Hasan
Spelling variation, I'd imagine. Tolkien probably "modernized" the
spelling a bit, to 'wight', so that the word would be at least
recognizable, the way he did with much archaic vocabulary and grammar. He
wanted to give readers the feeling of archaic language, to greater or
lesser degrees depending on the tone of a passage, but he didn't want to
lose his audience totally by using true Old English forms.
No, I was just trying to suggest some resonances that might have been
created in Tolkien's mind from the obsolete uses of the word, which might
have led him to create the Barrow-wights the way he did.
Oh, and please don't blame the (attempted translation) above on the
OED...what's between the parentheses is just my inexpert guess.
- Ciaran S.
_____________________________________
"It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most
of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused,
not be people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad,
but by people being fundamentally people."
-gaiman and pratchett
Henriette
>
> Witches flew, didn't they? So they had to be light. If you
> weighed a normal amount of someone your age and size, you
> couldn't be a witch. It seems the Waag saved many lives.
>
Families went there for a day's outing with their picknickbaskets, so
something had to happen. Well, if the witches had a proper weight,
they could maybe go, slightly disappointed, to the Galgeveld, to see
if someone was being hanged.
Henriette
Henriette
> On 14 Mar 2004 03:07:05 -0800, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
>
> >The Dutch word "wicht" is an archaic form of "girl", nowadays only
> >used in combination with a word that indicates that she is either
> >nasty or silly. There must be a common root somewhere with the word
> >"witch", which incidently is indicated by a completely different word
> >in Dutch: heks.
>
> That might explain why, in English, a witch can put a "hex" on
> somebody.
Yes, I didn't think of that. Maybe they have a common root somewhere.
The words are pronounced identically.
> >(Grubb: Another post by 3 women)
>
> (Henriette: And, lo!, the firmament of the Earth is not shaken, and
> the sun, moon and stars still sail peaceably along their appointed
> tracks. Amazing, isn't it...G)
>
Maybe the firmament of the Earth is shaken if in AFT we have a post
written by *4* women!
>
Henriette
TT Arvind
> Spelling variation, I'd imagine. Tolkien probably "modernized" the
> spelling a bit, to 'wight', so that the word would be at least
> recognizable, the way he did with much archaic vocabulary and grammar.
Tolkien didn't modernise the spelling; it had already evolved to that
spelling in Middle English (you'll find it in Chaucer), and it continued
to be used in its sense of 'supernatural or unearthly creature' in modern
English (Walter Scott, Pope, Spencer...), although more as an archaic
word than a contemporary one.
--
Frisbeetarianism: The belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the
roof and gets stuck.
TT Arvind
[English 'hex' and Dutch 'heks']
> Yes, I didn't think of that. Maybe they have a common root somewhere.
> The words are pronounced identically.
The roots are more common than you think. The word 'hex' is a very
recent borrowing into English, from Pennsylvania Dutch (which, of course,
is really a dialect of Low German, not Dutch).
The native English equivalent of Dutch 'heks' is probably 'hag'.
--
"So rise lightly from the earth
And try your wings
Try them now
While the darkness is invisible."
--Sun Ra
Taemon
> Taemon:
> > Witches flew, didn't they? So they had to be light. If
> > you weighed a normal amount of someone your age and
> > size, you couldn't be a witch. It seems the Waag saved
> > many lives.
> Poor annorexians.... I didn't know anyone stood a chance
> at the Waag.
I've heard that everybody who went there, was saved. Then again,
I got that information from Thea Beckman so it might be coloured.
T.
Brenda Selwyn
>When Frodo awakes he finds himself in the barrow. He sees his companions
>with faces lookely deathly pale. About them lay many treasures, with
>jewelry on them and swords at their sides, one long sword across their
>necks.
Another thing I've wondered for a while:
Why does Frodo wake in the barrow, but the other three don't? Why is
it only the other three who are dressed in white, with one long sword
across their necks?
Brenda
--
*************************************************************************
Brenda Selwyn
"In England's green and pleasant land"
"If we were 'grown up' and 'had a clue' we wouldn't be wasting our time
posting here." - The Softrat
Brenda Selwyn
>Did you say something, Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net>?
>
>>The Danes and the Vikings visited the Isle (not peacefully). One
>>wonders if they might have brought some "wight" mythology or terms
>>there, also?
>
>There's always the vette, which was a generic term for supernatural
>creatures, also known as the people who lived under hills. They could
>be good or evil, but weren't ghosts. The word has been etymologically
>compared to the gothic word waíhts (thing), the anglo-saxon word wiht
>(thing, creature, demon) and the middle lower german word wicht
>(creature).
There is at least one case in British Mythology of a supernatural
being living in a barrow, though he is somewhat different in character
from the Wights.
Wayland's Smithy
(http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/majorsites/waylands_smithy.html),
an impressive Neolithic long barrow on the Ridgeway in Oxfordshire, is
supposed to be home to Wayland, smith to the Saxon gods, who was said
to be "of the race of elves". It was said that if a horse and a
silver coin were left outside the barrow at sundown, in the morning
the horse would be new shod and the penny gone. Given his interests
and the location of the barrow so close to Oxford, It's difficult to
imagine Tolkien not knowing about this.
C.Groth
>>AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>When Frodo awakes he finds himself in the barrow. He sees his companions
>>with faces lookely deathly pale. About them lay many treasures, with
>>jewelry on them and swords at their sides, one long sword across their
>>necks.
>
>
> Another thing I've wondered for a while:
>
> Why does Frodo wake in the barrow, but the other three don't? Why is
> it only the other three who are dressed in white, with one long sword
> across their necks?
>
> Brenda
>
IMHO, I thought Frodo was caught last and had just been caught, and the
wight had not yet dressed Frodo in white. He was probably looking around
for a longer sword to go across all four of their necks ;-)
As to why Frodo woke, but not the othre three, perhaps Mery, Pippin, and
Sam were completely under the wight's spell (or nearly so), but not
Frodo, since he had just been caught.
AC
Brenda Selwyn <bre...@matson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>>When Frodo awakes he finds himself in the barrow. He sees his companions
>>with faces lookely deathly pale. About them lay many treasures, with
>>jewelry on them and swords at their sides, one long sword across their
>>necks.
>
> Another thing I've wondered for a while:
>
> Why does Frodo wake in the barrow, but the other three don't? Why is
> it only the other three who are dressed in white, with one long sword
> across their necks?
I rather expect that the Ring, one way or the other, had something to do
with this. As well, from the very beginning, we are shown that Frodo is
different from other Hobbits.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
aelfwina
"Brenda Selwyn" <bre...@matson.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:rfqh5057780e3jqg7...@4ax.com...
> >AC <mightym...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> >When Frodo awakes he finds himself in the barrow. He sees his companions
> >with faces lookely deathly pale. About them lay many treasures, with
> >jewelry on them and swords at their sides, one long sword across their
> >necks.
>
> Another thing I've wondered for a while:
>
> Why does Frodo wake in the barrow, but the other three don't? Why is
> it only the other three who are dressed in white, with one long sword
> across their necks?
Remember that Gandalf tells Frodo that his temptation in the Barrow was his
worst--"touch and go" I think, so it must have had something to do with the
Ring. Whether the Ring woke him up to be tempted to put it on or not, I'm
not sure. It's a distinct possibility.
Barbara
Brenda Selwyn
>Yet Frodo had felt the longing to see and hear the Sea all his life..."a
>sound he had never heard in waking life, but one which had often haunted
>his dreams" (dreams which came before he ever inherited the Ring). Which
>implies that his gift of foresight was inborn, as it was in Aragorn and
>many Numenoreans, as well as Elves. I've just always read this as a
>marker of Frodo's 'fey' quality, in a way his essential un-hobbitness.
>Perhaps the gift you speak of was given at birth.
So why should he, in particular, have that "fey" quality; and the gift
of foresight, if he has it? There is nothing obvious in his
background, except perhaps for one of the Tooks having taken a "fairy
wife". Was he perhaps already destined to be the Ringbearer from
birth?
aelfwina
> >Shanahan <pog...@redsuspenders.com> wrote:
>
> >Yet Frodo had felt the longing to see and hear the Sea all his life..."a
> >sound he had never heard in waking life, but one which had often haunted
> >his dreams" (dreams which came before he ever inherited the Ring). Which
> >implies that his gift of foresight was inborn, as it was in Aragorn and
> >many Numenoreans, as well as Elves. I've just always read this as a
> >marker of Frodo's 'fey' quality, in a way his essential un-hobbitness.
> >Perhaps the gift you speak of was given at birth.
>
> So why should he, in particular, have that "fey" quality; and the gift
> of foresight, if he has it? There is nothing obvious in his
> background, except perhaps for one of the Tooks having taken a "fairy
> wife". Was he perhaps already destined to be the Ringbearer from
> birth?
I had never really thought so until recently; but after my last re-read, I'm
beginning to. It puts a whole different spin on some events in his life if
you think of it that way. After all, if Eru *meant* Bilbo to find the Ring,
and Frodo to inherit it...how far back does "meaning" for something to
happen go?
Barbara
Raven
news:bgqh50d1ebkdfvhfq...@4ax.com...
> Wayland's Smithy
> (http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/majorsites/waylands_smithy.html),
> an impressive Neolithic long barrow on the Ridgeway in Oxfordshire, is
> supposed to be home to Wayland, smith to the Saxon gods, who was said
> to be "of the race of elves". It was said that if a horse and a
> silver coin were left outside the barrow at sundown, in the morning
> the horse would be new shod and the penny gone. Given his interests
> and the location of the barrow so close to Oxford, It's difficult to
> imagine Tolkien not knowing about this.
"Wayland" seems to be a cognate to "Vaulund" or "Vølund", who in Norse
mythology was a very skillful smith. Though not smith to the Asagods. In
one modern Danish retelling (by Ebbe Kløvedal Reich, whose middle name is
the Danish translation of Rivendell; he grew up in a commune of that name)
he had a supernatural wife, a fairy wife you might say. He was abducted by
a wicked king and held in thraldom on an islet in a lake, hamstrung after an
escape attempt. He had his revenge and escape when he slew the king's sons,
giving the as yet unknowing king their skulls resmithied as drinking bowls,
impregnated his daughter, and flew away like Icarus and his father with
wings that he had skilfully smithied with feathers that had been brought to
him.
The old Norse knew the value of a good revenge. :-)
Hrafn.
the softrat
>
>Why does Frodo wake in the barrow, but the other three don't? Why is
>it only the other three who are dressed in white, with one long sword
>across their necks?
>
the softrat
"LotR: Eleven Oscars! Right up there with _Titanic_!"
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now. --
Steven Wright
Shanahan
I like contrasting this scene with the Old Man Willow scene. In each
case, one of the hobbits is semi-immune to the evil spell being cast.
With OMW, it's Sam who shakes off the spell, and in the Barrow, Frodo. In
many ways, Sam and Frodo represent the different ends of the hobbit
spectrum: Sam is the essential hobbit of the earth, a simple soul and
simple heart with furry feet dug deep into the soil of the Shire. On the
other hand, Frodo is as ethereal, elf-like, and close to the unseen world,
as a hobbit can get.
So it makes symbolic sense that it is Sam who is resistant to the spell
which comes from the earth and the forest, and Frodo who is resistant to
the wraith-ish, Ring-ish spell of the Barrow-wight. (Hmm, quite Ring-ish,
actually, since the power of the wight derives from the Lord of the
Ringwraiths, whose power . . . etc.).
Or, it could be that the Ring has sharpened Frodo's awareness of the
unseen world, so that he wakes when the Barrow-wight begins its
incantation <shiverr>.
Henriette
> Henriette wrote:
>
> > Poor annorexians.... I didn't know anyone stood a chance
> > at the Waag.
>
> I've heard that everybody who went there, was saved. Then again,
> I got that information from Thea Beckman so it might be coloured.
>
Amsterdam were quite civilised barbarians compared to the barbarians
of the surrounding cities. The difference exists up to this day:-)
Do check out the article on Varken Aagje in the March issue of
Onkruid, where Aagje stares at you from the cover. You'll enjoy it!
Doei,
H.
Henriette
>
> [English 'hex' and Dutch 'heks']
>
> recent borrowing into English, from Pennsylvania Dutch (which, of course,
> is really a dialect of Low German, not Dutch).
>
Isn't it interesting when words are being borrowed from another
language, but then take on a different ( although in this case
related) meaning?
Iniyarutti
Taemon
> > > Poor annorexians.... I didn't know anyone stood a
> > > chance at the Waag.
> > T:
> > I've heard that everybody who went there, was saved.
> > Then again, I got that information from Thea Beckman so
> > it might be coloured.
> Because she writes fiction?
Don't get me wrong, I love her work (though I stopped reading it
quite some time ago). I just don't know how correct such details
are. Then again <gulp> this is not a detail. So she probably made
sure the Waag-part is correct. It was "Stad in de storm", which
also tells about the collapsing of the Dom church, a story I like
to tell to foreign friends when showing them around (which has
happened twice) (and they were the same people, too).
> I bet they were saved. The people of
> Amsterdam were quite civilised barbarians compared to the
> barbarians of the surrounding cities. The difference exists up
to
> this day:-)
Of course it does, my little barbarian. Pity I never think of
myself as Utrechts :-)
> Do check out the article on Varken Aagje in the March
> issue of Onkruid, where Aagje stares at you from the cover.
You'll
> enjoy it!
Ah, I can see Guusje and Suus any time I go visit my cow at the
petting zoo. You should come along sometime, they're so cute it
makes your teeth hurt.
T.
Belba Grubb from Stock
wrote:
>The native English equivalent of Dutch 'heks' is probably 'hag'.
I don't know how accurate is this history of the word that sardonic
Ambrose Bierce gives, although the reference to Drayton might be on
track, but here it is, FWIW:
HAG, n.
An elderly lady whom you do not happen to like; sometimes called,
also, a hen, or cat. Old witches, sorceresses, etc., were called hags
from the belief that their heads were surrounded by a kind of baleful
lumination or nimbus -- hag being the popular name of that peculiar
electrical light sometimes observed in the hair. At one time hag was
not a word of reproach: Drayton speaks of a "beautiful hag, all
smiles," much as Shakespeare said, "sweet wench." It would not now be
proper to call your sweetheart a hag -- that compliment is reserved
for the use of her grandchildren.
-- from "The Devil's Dictionary"
Barb
Belba Grubb from Stock
<bre...@matson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Why does Frodo wake in the barrow, but the other three don't?
Have always thought he woke in there, in spite of the spell, because
he was an Elf friend.
>Why is it only the other three who are dressed in white, with one long sword
>across their necks?
I agree it was because he'd been captured later, after the other three
were put under a spell. And then he woke up, and the Wight had to
start the enchantment right away instead of dressing him up or
whatever the ritual was.
Barb
Celaeno
>Wes šu Meneldilletje hal!
>>
>> [English 'hex' and Dutch 'heks']
>>
>> The roots are more common than you think. The word 'hex' is a very
>> recent borrowing into English, from Pennsylvania Dutch (which, of course,
>> is really a dialect of Low German, not Dutch).
>>
>In German a witch is eine Hexe, so even closer to 'hex' than 'heks'.
Not when 'heks' is pronounced exactly like 'hex'. It's 'heks' in
Norwegian too, and weejun has no words that naturally contain x.
Cel
Let us hunt some UFAT
Henriette
>
> HAG, n.
(Snip interesting explanation of the word Hag and its history. Are
there words like hag, hen and cat, but then for an old man?))
> It would not now be proper to call your sweetheart a hag --
LOL, no, I already got that far...
Henriette
Henriette
>
> Not when 'heks' is pronounced exactly like 'hex'.
I'm sorry to have to disagree here with my blood-sister, but I will
not fight for one letter;-)
> Let us hunt some UFAT
But here I agree. There is one problem though, and that is, that it's
hard to hunt UFAT when Pseudo is floating wickedly somewhere and does
not pay attention to his fans.......
Henriette
Henriette
(on Thea Beckman)
> Don't get me wrong, I love her work (though I stopped reading it
> quite some time ago). I just don't know how correct such details
> are. Then again <gulp> this is not a detail. So she probably made
> sure the Waag-part is correct. (snip)
Did you ever see the Waag? It is very pretty with its 7 small towers.
It is turned into a cafe-restaurant: you know how practical we Dutch
are. Or do you never think of yourself as Dutch?
>
> Pity I never think of myself as Utrechts :-)
You were not born there? How do you think of yourself then? A
planetary citizen?
>
> > Do check out the article on Varken Aagje in the March
> > issue of Onkruid, where Aagje stares at you from the cover.
> You'll enjoy it!
>
> Ah, I can see Guusje and Suus any time I go visit my cow at the
> petting zoo. You should come along sometime, they're so cute it
> makes your teeth hurt.
>
I may, in spite of my sore teeth, thank you! Actually I was not
referring to the article for Aagje's sake, but for the sake of her
boss, who has started an intensive and nice anti-bio-industry campaign
on her own. BTW Have you seen the ads which are all over town here
with Katja Schuurman and Georgina Verbaan and a piglet, which says: Om
op te vreten?
H.
Troels Forchhammer
<mightym...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
<snip>
>> Why does Frodo wake in the barrow, but the other three don't?
>> Why is it only the other three who are dressed in white, with one
>> long sword across their necks?
>
> I rather expect that the Ring, one way or the other, had something
> to do with this. As well, from the very beginning, we are shown
> that Frodo is different from other Hobbits.
As to why Frodo awoke, just to suggest something different ;-) it might
reflect the reason why he was chosen (though Gandalf says "that it was
not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom,
at any rate." II,2).
As to why he wasn't dressed in white and had the sword across his neck?
If it hadn't been night when he was caught and clear daylight when Tom
rescued them, I might have suggested that he woke up too quickly for
the Barrow-wight to prepare him, but that can't be the case.
As it is, I guess you're right. Whatever the Barrow-wights were
originally, they would probably perceive the Ring, and react to it, so
I suppose you're right in this (it might also be the Ring that woke him
up - not wanting to end up in the hoard of a Barrow-wight that wasn't
likely to carry it any further).
On the other hand we are, in UT, told that the Witch-king roused the
Barrow-wights himself, and in that case it may have been due to his
orders that Frodo was left unharmed (in which case it probably wasn't
the Ring that woke him).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)mail.dk>
For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to
(a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks.
- (Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites)
Taemon
> Did you ever see the Waag? It is very pretty with its 7
> small towers.
I know of a building like that in Den Haag but you're now talking
about Amsterdam, right? Then I don't know if I've seen it.
> It is turned into a cafe-restaurant: you know how
> practical we Dutch are. Or do you never think of yourself as
Dutch?
Hardly ever.
> > Pity I never think of myself as Utrechts :-)
> You were not born there?
No, I was born in Geldermalsen and moved to Utrecht when I was
eighteen.
> How do you think of yourself then? A planetary citizen?
A human, usually.
> > Ah, I can see Guusje and Suus any time I go visit my
> > cow at the petting zoo. You should come along sometime,
> > they're so cute it makes your teeth hurt.
> I may, in spite of my sore teeth, thank you! Actually I
> was not referring to the article for Aagje's sake, but for the
> sake of her boss, who has started an intensive and nice
> anti-bio-industry campaign on her own.
Cool. How can I help? I started eating meat again after a short
period as a vegan (quitting dairy) but there is hardly any
eco-meat to get where I live.
> BTW Have you seen the ads which are all over
> town here with Katja Schuurman and Georgina Verbaan and a
piglet,
> which says: Om op te vreten?
Hm... not sure. I think so. Where they lying in a bed?
T. <snuffling>
Belba Grubb from Stock
>The Grubb wrote in message news:
>>
>> HAG, n.
>
>(Snip interesting explanation of the word Hag and its history. Are
>there words like hag, hen and cat, but then for an old man?))
Hmmm...I can't think of any right off hand. In Tolkien's world, of
course, there were (she-)gammers and (he-)gaffers.
Barb
Shanahan
>> HAG, n.
>
>(Snip interesting explanation of the word Hag and its history. Are
>there words like hag, hen and cat, but then for an old man?))
gaffer, geezer, randy old goat...
(heaven forfend that I personally would use any *one* of these un-PC
terms!) <g>
- Ciaran S.
Henriette
> Henriette wrote:
>
> > Did you ever see the Waag? It is very pretty with its 7
> > small towers.
>
> I know of a building like that in Den Haag but you're now talking
> about Amsterdam, right? Then I don't know if I've seen it.
7 small towers? Waag? Den Haag? You mean the Peace Palace?
>
> > Actually I
> > was not referring to the article for Aagje's sake, but for the
> > sake of her boss, who has started an intensive and nice
> > anti-bio-industry campaign on her own.
>
> Cool. How can I help?
You can read the article (quite short). Onkruid, March. Moet te doen
zijn,
"even" in de provincie:-)
> I started eating meat again after a short
> period as a vegan (quitting dairy) but there is hardly any
> eco-meat to get where I live.
>
Maybe you can ask Albert Heijn. When our AH can sell it, so can yours.
They also have good replacements (vleesvervangers). No Natuurwinkels
around?
> > BTW Have you seen the ads which are all over
> > town here with Katja Schuurman and Georgina Verbaan and a
> > piglet, which says: Om op te vreten?
>
> Hm... not sure. I think so. Where they lying in a bed?
>
You saw it! Do pay some attention to it and be happy something is
happening m.b.t. dierenleed.
> T. <snuffling>
?
H.
Henriette
posters who would *never* use such words:-)
Henriette
Taemon
> Taemon:
> > I know of a building like that in Den Haag but you're
> > now talking about Amsterdam, right? Then I don't know
> > if I've seen it.
> 7 small towers? Waag? Den Haag? You mean the Peace Palace?
Could be, not sure. It was turned into a café-restaurant, just
like what you described. I seem to remember it was a Waag,
though. Of course, there is more than one.
> You can read the article (quite short). Onkruid, March.
> Moet te doen zijn, "even" in de provincie:-)
They have it in the Groene Winkel. Unfortunately, it is not close
by.
> > I started eating meat again after a short
> > period as a vegan (quitting dairy) but there is hardly
> > any eco-meat to get where I live.
> Maybe you can ask Albert Heijn. When our AH can sell it,
> so can yours.
> They also have good replacements (vleesvervangers). No
> Natuurwinkels around?
No, and the Albert Heijn does have some, but not for broodbeleg,
which is what I'm looking for. I don't care for meat otherwise.
Well, except kippepootjes <looks at floor>.
> > T. <snuffling>
> ?
Those poor piglets.
T.
Henriette
> Henriette wrote:
> > Maybe you can ask Albert Heijn. When our AH can sell it,
> > so can yours.
> > They also have good replacements (vleesvervangers). No
> > Natuurwinkels around?
>
> No, and the Albert Heijn does have some, but not for broodbeleg,
> which is what I'm looking for.
Our AH has *plenty* vegetarian broodbeleg. They are just so silly to
hang it in between the meatproducts with no visible differences,
except that it says in very small letters that it is no meat. Check it
out! Even wannabe "theeworst"!
Henriette
Taemon
> Our AH has *plenty* vegetarian broodbeleg. They are just
> so silly to hang it in between the meatproducts with no visible
> differences, except that it says in very small letters that it
is no
> meat. Check it out! Even wannabe "theeworst"!
There is some of that stuff here but what I'm (also) looking for
is bd-vlees voor op brood. Sometimes there is scharrelham which I
always buy to make a point.
...
Theeworst? <scuttles off to the Albert Heyn>
T.
Brenda Selwyn
>"Brenda Selwyn" <bre...@matson.demon.co.uk> skrev i en meddelelse
>news:bgqh50d1ebkdfvhfq...@4ax.com...
>
>> Wayland's Smithy,
>> an impressive Neolithic long barrow on the Ridgeway in Oxfordshire, is
>> supposed to be home to Wayland, smith to the Saxon gods, who was said
>> to be "of the race of elves". It was said that if a horse and a
>> silver coin were left outside the barrow at sundown, in the morning
>> the horse would be new shod and the penny gone. Given his interests
>> and the location of the barrow so close to Oxford, It's difficult to
>> imagine Tolkien not knowing about this.
>
> "Wayland" seems to be a cognate to "Vaulund" or "Vølund", who in Norse
>mythology was a very skillful smith. Though not smith to the Asagods. In
>one modern Danish retelling (by Ebbe Kløvedal Reich, whose middle name is
>the Danish translation of Rivendell; he grew up in a commune of that name)
>he had a supernatural wife, a fairy wife you might say. He was abducted by
>a wicked king and held in thraldom on an islet in a lake, hamstrung after an
>escape attempt. He had his revenge and escape when he slew the king's sons,
>giving the as yet unknowing king their skulls resmithied as drinking bowls,
>impregnated his daughter, and flew away like Icarus and his father with
>wings that he had skilfully smithied with feathers that had been brought to
>him.
> The old Norse knew the value of a good revenge. :-)
Yes, that's the bloke. My knowledge of Norse and Saxon mythology
isn't too good, Jennifer Westwood's "Albion: A Guide to Legendary
Britain" (which I have here) says Wayland is the Saxon equivalent of
Vaulund, and goes on to tell much the same story as you do. The book
says there is evidence to suggest the barrow has been associated with
Wayland since Saxon times, but the horse-shoeing legend is probably
more recent (i.e. less than 900 hundred years old!).
I'd be interested to know how well Tolkien knew that part of
Oxfordshire (or Berkshire as it would have been in his day: it was
redesignated by the Boundary Commission in 1974). There are a lot of
barrows in that area of the Downs, including a group called the Seven
Barrows (a misnomer as there are many more than 7 there). I've not
been to that particular site for about 30 years and I wonder how much
it looks like Tolkien's description. I remember it being pretty
spooky when I went there on a school trip when I was about nine.
About two miles from Wayland's Smithy is the Uffington White Horse,
the only genuinely ancient chalk horse in the UK. In former times it
was cleaned and re-whitened in an annual ceremony known as The
Scouring of the White Horse.
At the foot of the bank on which it is carved stands a conical
bare-topped mound known as Dragon Hill, being where St George slew the
dragon. The legend is that dragon's blood killed the grass, which has
never re-grown.
Finally, a few miles away is the Blowing Stone, a small standing stone
with holes in, which if one blows into it in the right way, one can
get a horn-like sound. It was reputedly used by King Alfred to summon
his countrymen to fight against the Danes.
Brenda
--
*************************************************************************
Brenda Selwyn
"In England's green and pleasant land"
"The difference between America and England is that Americans think
100 years is a long time, while the English think 100 miles is a long
way." - Earle Hitchner
the softrat
<bre...@matson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Yes, that's the bloke. My knowledge of Norse and Saxon mythology
>isn't too good, Jennifer Westwood's "Albion: A Guide to Legendary
<snip>
>get a horn-like sound. It was reputedly used by King Alfred to summon
>his countrymen to fight against the Danes.
>
>Brenda
IIRC, up on the Berkshire Downs, there is a sign to Buckleberry (or is
it Brandybuck?). Anyway there IS a sign.
To the best of my knowledge, based on Carpenter's biography of JRRT,
JRRT was very familiar with the countryside of Berkshire and
Oxfordshire. He loved it and, when he had an automobile, he drove
around it with his family.
the softrat
"I feel like I'm beating my head against a dead horse."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"The race is not always to the swift, or the battle to the strong...but that is
the way to bet." Damon Runyan
Alan Reynolds
> >"Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> wrote:
>
> > I'd be interested to know how well Tolkien knew that part of
> Oxfordshire (or Berkshire as it would have been in his day: it was
> redesignated by the Boundary Commission in 1974). > >
In _Letters of Tolkien_, JRRT says that Farmer Giles of Ham is a story
definitely located in Oxfordshire and Bucks, with a brief excursion into
Wales; the places in it are largely named, and that the incident between the
dog and dragon occurs near Rollright, where there is a circle of standing
stones. The villages in Farmer Giles are real place names in Ox/bucks: Ham
(=Thame), and Worminghall, and Oakley for example.
And in _The Road to Middle earth_, Tom shippey points out that Brill in
Oxfordshire is a shortening of Bree hill; and Chetwode is not far away.
Buckland is in Oxon too; and Loudwater is just down the road from me. No
ford, though.
Alan
> > "The difference between America and England is that Americans think
> 100 years is a long time, while the English think 100 miles is a long
> way." - Earle Hitchner
Love it!
Christopher Kreuzer
[about Frodo's dreams - originally about the one in Bombadil's house]
> Yet Frodo had felt the longing to see and hear the Sea all his
> life..."a sound he had never heard in waking life, but one which had
> often haunted his dreams" (dreams which came before he ever inherited
> the Ring). Which implies that his gift of foresight was inborn, as
> it was in Aragorn and many Numenoreans, as well as Elves. I've just
> always read this as a marker of Frodo's 'fey' quality, in a way his
> essential un-hobbitness. Perhaps the gift you speak of was given at
> birth.
This reminds me of the fey nature and past-sight of the characters
Tolkien creates in the Lost Road and the Notion Club Papers; where they
have dreams of Atlantis (Atalante or Numenor). Which also ties in with
the dreams of Faramir, which all ultimately originate in Tolkien's own
dreams (and those of one of his son's).
So nearly all the dreams and foresight could be explained as an innate,
inborn ability, and might remove any need to have each dream sent by
supernatural forces, as some earlier posters were suggesting.
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Christopher Kreuzer
> AC wrote:
>
>> [1] Here Frodo has another dream, this one clearly of Tol Eressea.
>> If I may be permitted to jump ahead to the end of LotR "And the ship
>> went out into the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last
>> on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and
>> heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it
>> seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey
>> rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he
>> beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift
>> sunrise." What was the purpose of this dream, and who sent it to
>> Frodo?
>
> I've always been intrigued by this passage, both in this chapter and
> at the end of the book; in particular, by the phrase "swift sunrise".
> Does this have any meaning besides being alliterative? I've often
> wondered if this is an indication of an altered sense of time for a
> mortal in the Undying Lands, where they "wither and grow weary the
> sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast." /Sil/
> 'Akallabeth'
Wasn't this discussed back in February? As no-one seems to have replied,
I'll repost what I said back then, as maybe it was missed:
"You could go even more outside the box and think about some form of
time
travel. Tolkien did imply (in the coda to the Akallabeth) that the
Straight Road (there called the Straight Way) was connected with time
travel in some way. Or I may be confusing it with the Notion Club
Papers/Lost Road stories. In the Akallabeth, Tolkien uses the phrase
"memory of the West", which implies to me that Aman, as well as being
removed from the Circles of the World, might now be a preservation of
ancient times, both when magic existed incarnate in the world, and when
the world was flat.
All in all, I think the phrase "a far green country under a swift
sunrise" is incredibly beautiful and evocative, and communicates the
beauty and strangeness of Aman with wonderful economy of words."
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
"He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not
even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a
glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can." - Gandalf on
Frodo's fate (Many Meetings, FotR)