Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk3 Ch2: The Riders of Rohan
Belba Grubb from Stock
Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
To check out the other Chapters of the Week or to sign up to do a
chapter of your own, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org. Anybody
signed up for Chapter 3 yet?
_____________________
"How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"
"As he ever has judged," said Aragorn. "Good and ill have not
changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves
and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to
discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."
"True indeed," said Eomer.
In this chapter we see two future kings making hard choices and acting
on them, choices that will change the course of the War of the Ring.
But there is much more here as we are introduced to new lands and
characters and learn more about ones whom we already think we know.
_____________________
CHAPTER SUMMARY :
All night Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli track the Orcs through the Emyn
Muil. They find some Orc bodies; Aragorn notices that all are
Northern Orcs and that none are the ones with the strange emblem of
the White Hand, which leads him to believe that there was some
internal dispute among the Orc band they are pursuing. The Three
Hunters find no sign of the hobbits among the bodies. As dawn comes
Aragorn sees the White Mountains of Gondor in the South and wonders
out loud, "…Shall Men behold the Silver Tree…." Then he turns west
and north to his own immediate task.
They find the Orc trail leading down onto the fields of Rohan, and as
the Hunters pause atop the East Wall of Rohan, Legolas sees the eagle
above them, now speeding northward. They also see a great company
moving out on the grassy plain some 12 leagues (36 miles) away, and
quickly the Man, Elf and Dwarf descend to the plain and start off at a
run after the Orcs. Along the way Aragorn spots hobbit tracks leading
away from the main trail and then curving sharply in again - at the
furthest point of the hobbit tracks away from the trail he finds the
brooch of an Elven cloak. The Hunters realize that one of the hobbits
at least (most likely Pippin, who was smallest) had the use of his
legs and his wits at that point, and they hurry on, hoping that the
hobbit hasn't paid too dearly for his courage.
They run all day long and at nightfall are 12 leagues out across the
plain. After some debate they decide not to chase the Orcs at night,
for there is little to no moonlight and they might miss the trail or
other important signs in the dark. The next morning Legolas tells
them he feels that the Orcs have traveled all night and are now far,
far away. Aragorn listens to the ground and notes that indeed "faint
and far are the feet of our enemies," but that there is also the sound
of hooves galloping heading northward. He wonders what that means.
Again the Three Hunters pursue the Orcs all day, eating lembas as they
run and finding new strength. By the end of the day then are now 24
leagues (72 miles) out from the East Wall and must stop as night
falls. Aragorn notes that the land feels strange to him, too silent;
also, the stars and moon are veiled and he is "weary as no Ranger
should be with a clear trail to follow." He suspects (and Legolas
confirms) that they are facing a will before them that makes them
weary and speeds their foes onward: Saruman.
The next day they find where the Orcs camped, but Aragorn estimates
that the site is 36 hours old and that by sunset of the previous day
the Orcs would have reached Fangorn Forest. Still the Hunters
continue on and at sunset reach some downs that are about 10 leagues
southeast of Fangorn. The next morning, they see the Orc trail
turning from the downs to the Entwash that flows out of the forest,
but along the trail and coming toward them is a group of over 100
horsemen who obviously have already met the Orcs. Their pursuit at an
end, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli sit down to await the arrival of the
horsemen.
The Riders of Rohan come up and begin to pass the three, not seeing
them in their Elven cloaks, so Aragorn stands up and calls to them.
The Riders react instantly and soon the Three Hunters are surrounded
by a ring of spears and bows, and their chief, a tall, young man named
Eomer, rides forward, dismounts and asks who they are and what they're
doing in Rohan. Aragorn at first doesn't give his true name to Eomer,
but after some tense talk and challenges in which Eomer and Gimli
almost come to blows, he is able to see that Eomer, even when angry,
will listen to the strangers before striking. Only then, and to the
surprise of his two companions (who haven't seen him in this mood
before), Aragorn draws Anduril and declares himself the heir of
Isildur, Elendil's son of Gondor. Awed, Eomer talks further with
Aragorn, calling the stranger Wingfoot for having traveled 45 leagues
(135 miles) in under four days. They exchange news, with the Hunters
learning that Rohan is not at open war yet with Sauron and there is
division among the Rohirrim about whether Rohan should aid Gondor if
summoned; Eomer also hints to Aragorn that there is trouble in the
halls of Theoden King; they also find out that Saruman has claimed
lordship over the land and there has been war with him for several
months, including an ongoing battle right now in the Westemnet.
Saruman has Orcs, Wolf-riders and evil Men in his service. Eomer's
charge is the Eastemnet, and when he heard of them, Eomer pursued the
Orcs without the king's leave, fearing a league between Saruman and
Sauron. He caught up with the Orc band at the edge of Fangorn Forest
and destroyed them all. Aragorn asks if they found any unusual bodies
among the Orcs, halflings (whom one rider has heard of, though he
deems them a legendary race), and Eomer says that they did not. The
Three Hunters must therefore travel on, and Eomer lends them two
horses but asks, that after they have found what they sought, they
bring the horses back to Meduseld and submit themselves to the
judgment of Theoden:
"In this I place myself, and maybe my very life, in the
keeping of your good faith. Do not fail."
"I will not," said Aragorn.
The Riders and the Hunters part, and Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli ride
up the Orc trail to the edge of Fangorn Forest. Along the way they
discover another trail that joins up with the main one, but on neither
trail does Aragorn find any sign of the hobbits. They arrive at the
battleground in the late afternoon and by nightfall have found no sign
of the hobbits and must stop because of dark.
They camp for the night under a chestnut tree and discuss what little
is known among Elves and Men about the strange forest. Gimli takes
the first watch, and not too long after they settle down an old man in
a great cloak and a wide hat suddenly appears at the edge of the
firelight. Aragorn jumps up and greets the man, who disappears. In
the meantime the horses have run off. The companions hear them
neighing and whinnying once in the distant dark, and then all is
silent. All they can do is stay there, though it seems likely enough
that Saruman has found them. They take turns at watch, but nothing
happens during the long hours.
_____________________
DISCUSSION POINTS:
This is probably already too long for many, but hey, we're fans: let's
wallow in it, eh? (BG)
Anyway, some of these later chapters contain a lot more than did the
earlier chapters. They remind me of tapestries - the longer you look
at them, the more you see. This one is part travelogue, with some of
the best scenic description in the story, and part character
development; and it also is packed with information that moves the
plot along and allows us now to see some of the broader picture for
ourselves.
TRAVELOGUE: Just a few of my favorite descriptions are dawn on the
Emyn Muil; the nautical terms used to describe how the East Wall and
the plain of Rohan look (fathoms, green sea, and the sound of running
water); the Entwash as "a silver thread on a green floor," and the
"darkling West under the sickle moon" on the night they realize
Saruman is hindering them.
CHARACTERS: Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli really show their stuff here
individually and together. A few examples:
Aragorn: We see an impressive display of his Ranger skills here, get a
hint of his past travels, see his leadership style in action
(listening to his two companions and then making his own decision),
watch him claim his title for the first time, and see what may be an
effect of his Elvish blood (the light around his brow that Legolas
sees flickering).
Legolas: He really comes alive here in many ways.
Gimli: He's down to earth, practical, and oddly susceptible to
Saruman's enchantment, which kills all hope in his heart. He also
seems to provide the "hobbit-like" viewpoint for the reader in the
absence of all the other hobbits throughout this chapter.
The three also show their differences both when they are walking along
in the late stages of the pursuit and when they await the arrival of
the Riders. And they don't let us forget the other characters - Frodo
and Sam are mentioned, and we learn more how important Gandalf was.
The Orcs: We really get a better picture of them by looking at the
things they throw away. Also Eomer tells us that the Orcs of Isengard
are more fell than all other breeds. Interestingly, JRRT describes a
"goblin head" (presumably Ugluk's, whom Eomer killed in hand-to-hand
combat) on a stake at the battleground on Fangorn's edge - it wasn't
just in "The Hobbit" that the terms goblin and orc were intermixed.
The Riders of Rohan: Simple, yet perceptive, emotional but stalwart,
and they are troubled now in their land between Mordor and Isengard
(and do NOT pay tribute in horses to Mordor!!). While researching the
Web for stuff on them I came across pictures that are presumably from
the most recent movie, and those don't really jive with my picture of
a Rider of Rohan based on the description in this chapter - too
reminiscent of the Mongolian cavalries, I thought.
About the horses, it's hard to find a lot of online information easily
about war horses and what they could do, what breeds were good for
that (though today we do have the Lipizanners), etc. I did come
across an essay of Montaigne's called "War Horses, or Destriers" at
http://www.equilibrium.org/montaigne/essay05.html. Although it tends
to ramble away from the topic of horses a bit and has a lot of Latin
thrown in (which I just skipped), it's interesting in this context
both because it describes several examples of men doing pretty much
exactly the same sort of thing that Legolas is described as doing with
Arod, and more. Also, Montaigne (who was French) offers a look at the
down side of being a horse lord:
"Our ancestors, and especially at the time they had war with
the English, in all their greatest engagements and pitched
battles fought for the most part on foot, that they might have
nothing but their own force, courage, and constancy to trust
to in a quarrel of so great concern as life and honor. You
stake (whatever Chrysanthes in Xenophon says to the contrary)
your valor and your fortune upon that of your horse; his
wounds or death bring your person into the same danger; his
fear or fury shall make you reputed rash or cowardly; if he
have an ill mouth, or will not answer to the spur, your honor
must answer for it. And, therefore, I do not think it strange
that those battles were more firm and furious than those that
are fought on horseback."
Eomer and Elfhelm definitely would not agree. (g)
Finally, there seems to be an in-depth look at the qualities of
leadership in this chapter. One of those qualities would be to listen
when the heart speaks clearly, as Aragorn did in the last chapter; in
this chapter Eomer has done the same thing, even though it meant
disobeying his king. He also exhibits several other qualities of a
good leader and ruler.
I just love the interaction between Eomer and Aragorn, especially at
first. It's so macho initially, with Eomer on horseback advancing
until the point of his spear is almost touching Aragorn, who is on
foot and does not move. Then the Rider jumps off his horse and starts
talking with them and Aragorn tests him, it seems, by waiting to see
if he will listen after he has been stirred to great anger. Only when
Eomer shows he is capable of this does Aragorn reveal his true
identity. By the end of their discussion they have an instinctive
trust of each other. It's really fascinating how that all develops.
In the "What if" category, what if Gandalf had not returned? Would
Aragorn have been able to draw on his earlier conversations with
Theoden to heal him and bring the Riders to Gondor's aid in time?
And what about the chestnut seeming to be glad of the fire? That
seemed a bit too much, especially in view of what we will learn later
of how the Ents view the fires of Isengard. True, on very cold,
subzero nights, trees will split apart as their sap freezes -- it
sounds like a gunshot on a cold winter night -- but this night, though
chilly, was nowhere near cold enough for a tree to show its
appreciation of heat.
Well, that's just some of the stuff I saw here. Comments, additions…?
aelfwina
"Belba Grubb from Stock" <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message
news:as4le0t1hbp5fkemu...@4ax.com...
> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
>
>
> To check out the other Chapters of the Week or to sign up to do a
> chapter of your own, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org. Anybody
> signed up for Chapter 3 yet?
> _____________________
>
> "How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"
>
> "As he ever has judged," said Aragorn. "Good and ill have not
> changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves
> and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to
> discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."
>
> "True indeed," said Eomer.
>
> In this chapter we see two future kings making hard choices and acting
> on them, choices that will change the course of the War of the Ring.
> But there is much more here as we are introduced to new lands and
> characters and learn more about ones whom we already think we know.
> _____________________
>
> CHAPTER SUMMARY :
(snip of excellent summary)
> _____________________
>
> DISCUSSION POINTS:
>
> This is probably already too long for many, but hey, we're fans: let's
> wallow in it, eh? (BG)
>
> Anyway, some of these later chapters contain a lot more than did the
> earlier chapters. They remind me of tapestries - the longer you look
> at them, the more you see. This one is part travelogue, with some of
> the best scenic description in the story, and part character
> development; and it also is packed with information that moves the
> plot along and allows us now to see some of the broader picture for
> ourselves.
>
> TRAVELOGUE: Just a few of my favorite descriptions are dawn on the
> Emyn Muil; the nautical terms used to describe how the East Wall and
> the plain of Rohan look (fathoms, green sea, and the sound of running
> water); the Entwash as "a silver thread on a green floor," and the
> "darkling West under the sickle moon" on the night they realize
> Saruman is hindering them.
And there is the entire first paragraph of the chapter, laying out the
terrain beautifully!
>
> CHARACTERS: Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli really show their stuff here
> individually and together. A few examples:
>
> Aragorn: We see an impressive display of his Ranger skills here, get a
> hint of his past travels, see his leadership style in action
> (listening to his two companions and then making his own decision),
> watch him claim his title for the first time, and see what may be an
> effect of his Elvish blood (the light around his brow that Legolas
> sees flickering).
Yes, this is the first time we really see him as a tracker and hunter; the
only other time we've seen his skills at reading signs was between Bree and
Rivendell, and he was not pursuing anything then.
>
> Legolas: He really comes alive here in many ways.
He shows us now many of the traits of Elves that up till now we have only
glimpsed in passing or been told about: tirelessness, the ability to go long
periods without rest, and though we have seen him use his keen Elven
eyesight before, it has not been so impressive.
>
> Gimli: He's down to earth, practical, and oddly susceptible to
> Saruman's enchantment, which kills all hope in his heart. He also
> seems to provide the "hobbit-like" viewpoint for the reader in the
> absence of all the other hobbits throughout this chapter.
>
Very good point. With no hobbit in this chapter, Gimli does take on the
"everyman" role usually assigned to hobbits. We also get to see his
temper--as with his little confrontation with Eomer.
> The three also show their differences both when they are walking along
> in the late stages of the pursuit and when they await the arrival of
> the Riders. And they don't let us forget the other characters - Frodo
> and Sam are mentioned, and we learn more how important Gandalf was.
In their minds, we see, the Fellowship still exists; even though they are
apart, they do not forget one another. It just goes to show how much of a
bond the Nine had developed on their journey so far.
>
> The Orcs: We really get a better picture of them by looking at the
> things they throw away. Also Eomer tells us that the Orcs of Isengard
> are more fell than all other breeds. Interestingly, JRRT describes a
> "goblin head" (presumably Ugluk's, whom Eomer killed in hand-to-hand
> combat) on a stake at the battleground on Fangorn's edge - it wasn't
> just in "The Hobbit" that the terms goblin and orc were intermixed.
>
> The Riders of Rohan: Simple, yet perceptive, emotional but stalwart,
> and they are troubled now in their land between Mordor and Isengard
> (and do NOT pay tribute in horses to Mordor!!). While researching the
> Web for stuff on them I came across pictures that are presumably from
> the most recent movie, and those don't really jive with my picture of
> a Rider of Rohan based on the description in this chapter - too
> reminiscent of the Mongolian cavalries, I thought.
They didn't look Mongolian to me; I thought they seemed to have an
appropriately Saxonish feel to them, but hey, different strokes.
>
> About the horses, it's hard to find a lot of online information easily
> about war horses and what they could do, what breeds were good for
> that (though today we do have the Lipizanners), etc. I did come
> across an essay of Montaigne's called "War Horses, or Destriers" at
> http://www.equilibrium.org/montaigne/essay05.html. Although it tends
> to ramble away from the topic of horses a bit and has a lot of Latin
> thrown in (which I just skipped), it's interesting in this context
> both because it describes several examples of men doing pretty much
> exactly the same sort of thing that Legolas is described as doing with
> Arod, and more. Also, Montaigne (who was French) offers a look at the
> down side of being a horse lord:
Although I know little or nothing about horses, I love to watch them in
action. I have seen them used in some of the exercises that were used in
the Middle Ages: tilting at the ring, tilting at the quintain, spearing from
horseback, etc. It's impressive.
>
> "Our ancestors, and especially at the time they had war with
> the English, in all their greatest engagements and pitched
> battles fought for the most part on foot, that they might have
> nothing but their own force, courage, and constancy to trust
> to in a quarrel of so great concern as life and honor. You
> stake (whatever Chrysanthes in Xenophon says to the contrary)
> your valor and your fortune upon that of your horse; his
> wounds or death bring your person into the same danger; his
> fear or fury shall make you reputed rash or cowardly; if he
> have an ill mouth, or will not answer to the spur, your honor
> must answer for it. And, therefore, I do not think it strange
> that those battles were more firm and furious than those that
> are fought on horseback."
>
I've seen horses balk while the riders were trying to do the aforementioned
exercises, much to the rider's embarassment, so I can see what he meant.
> Eomer and Elfhelm definitely would not agree. (g)
>
> Finally, there seems to be an in-depth look at the qualities of
> leadership in this chapter. One of those qualities would be to listen
> when the heart speaks clearly, as Aragorn did in the last chapter; in
> this chapter Eomer has done the same thing, even though it meant
> disobeying his king. He also exhibits several other qualities of a
> good leader and ruler.
>
> I just love the interaction between Eomer and Aragorn, especially at
> first. It's so macho initially, with Eomer on horseback advancing
> until the point of his spear is almost touching Aragorn, who is on
> foot and does not move. Then the Rider jumps off his horse and starts
> talking with them and Aragorn tests him, it seems, by waiting to see
> if he will listen after he has been stirred to great anger. Only when
> Eomer shows he is capable of this does Aragorn reveal his true
> identity. By the end of their discussion they have an instinctive
> trust of each other. It's really fascinating how that all develops.
This scene is one of my favorite confrontations in the story. I love how we
see Gimli's reaction to slander of the Lady, and Legolas leaping to Gimli's
defense, and how Aragorn is easily able to back them down. These three have
definitely bonded in a special way on their quest to rescue Merry and
Pippin.
And you are right as well about how Eomer shows his quality. And he deals
with his own little bit of dissent: "Peace, Eothain!" We don't see very much
at all of this character except for the one little moment, yet I have an
indelible impression of Eothain's personality just from his one little bit
part, here and where the horses are given. Young, brash, outspoken, a
privileged kinsman of Eomer, and yet loyal and well-disciplined. Amazing
little personality sketch for a minor character.
>
> In the "What if" category, what if Gandalf had not returned? Would
> Aragorn have been able to draw on his earlier conversations with
> Theoden to heal him and bring the Riders to Gondor's aid in time?
Very interesting thought. We know Aragorn's skill as a healer, although the
extent of it has yet to be revealed. Could he have healed Theoden? I'm
inclined to think so. But I am not so sure he could have counter-acted
Grima so effectively. And without Gandalf's intervention, the three would
probably have continued their search for the two missing hobbits, which
would have thrown off a lot of the plot.
>
> And what about the chestnut seeming to be glad of the fire? That
> seemed a bit too much, especially in view of what we will learn later
> of how the Ents view the fires of Isengard. True, on very cold,
> subzero nights, trees will split apart as their sap freezes -- it
> sounds like a gunshot on a cold winter night -- but this night, though
> chilly, was nowhere near cold enough for a tree to show its
> appreciation of heat.
Perhaps it was not so much the fire itself as it was the presence of an Elf,
and the fact that the fire was *not* an Orc fire? I would say that maybe
Legolas was just being fanciful, but he is a wood-elf, so I venture to say
he would know.
>
> Well, that's just some of the stuff I saw here. Comments, additions.?
One of my favorite quotes: " 'How shall a Man judge what to do in such
times?'
'As he has ever judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since
yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among
Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in
his own house.'
Barbara
>
Taemon
> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
On my last reading, I was delighted to see that Éomer has a sense
of humour. Aragorn does his "I am Isildurs heir"-thing and Éomer
says "Wow man, what have I been smoking?" Well, actually he says
"Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass" but it's
close. Aragorn can be such an arrogant jerk sometimes.
T.
Raven
news:2l09r4F...@uni-berlin.de...
> Aragorn can be such an arrogant jerk sometimes.
Wouldn't you, with an ancestry *and* a fiancée like his?
Raaf.
Emma Pease
> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
>
>
> To check out the other Chapters of the Week or to sign up to do a
> chapter of your own, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org. Anybody
> signed up for Chapter 3 yet?
> _____________________
>
> "How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"
>
> "As he ever has judged," said Aragorn. "Good and ill have not
> changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves
> and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to
> discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."
>
> "True indeed," said Eomer.
>
> In this chapter we see two future kings making hard choices and acting
> on them, choices that will change the course of the War of the Ring.
> But there is much more here as we are introduced to new lands and
> characters and learn more about ones whom we already think we know.
> _____________________
>
> Well, that's just some of the stuff I saw here. Comments, additions?
I'll add a chapter timeline with some bits we learn earlier and later.
Feb 25
- first battle of the Isen, death of Theodred
Feb 26
- Breaking of the Fellowship
- Frodo and Sam cross to the east bank and head off
- Merry and Pippin captured by orcs
- Death and funeral of Boromir
- late afternoon, Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas set off after the orcs
- evening, orcs stop for a while in the valley between the two ridges
of the Emyn Muil. Grishnakh leaves. Pippin frees his hands.
- early night, orcs reach the west edge of the Emyn Muil, sighted by a
rider of Rohan
- little bit later (moon hasn't set), Pippin swerves off and drops brooch
Feb 27
- dawn, Aragorn's party reaches the western ridge of the Emyn Muil,
Legolas sights an eagle heading north, orcs 12 leagues away
- early morning, find Pippin's brooch
- night, Aragorn's party rests, 12 leagues from the Emyn Muil
- midnight, Eomer starts pursuing the Orcs (is this midnight of the
26/27 or 27/28?) Does Eomer know of Theodred's death?
- Gandalf sees Treebeard but doesn't speak to him. If the high place
is in Lothlorien, Gandalf got to Fangorn fairly quickly. (I know,
a later chapter discussion)
Feb 28
- Aragorn's party continues NW
- dusk, are 24 leagues from the Emyn Muil
- night, rests
- morning, orc party camps temporarily on the banks of the Entwash,
Grishnakh rejoins
-dusk, Eomer's eored overtakes the Orcs at the edge of Fangorn
Feb 29
- just before noon, Aragorn's party reaches the downs
- find Orc camp (36 hours old)
- night, rests, 10 leagues from Fangorn
- pre-dawn, Merry and Pippin escape
- dawn, Eomer attacks and destroys the orcs
- Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard
Feb 30
- morning, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli meet Eomer returning to Meduseld
given horses
- late afternoon, arrive at Fangorn and start searching the battlefield
- night, horses run off, old man sighted
> DISCUSSION POINTS:
> In the "What if" category, what if Gandalf had not returned? Would
> Aragorn have been able to draw on his earlier conversations with
> Theoden to heal him and bring the Riders to Gondor's aid in time?
But by the time Aragorn and company had gotten to Edoras it probably
would have been ruins, Theoden dead and either Eowyn forcibly wed to
Grima or dead. Remember they have lost their horses and will have to
walk there, a several day journey.
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Taemon
> Taemon:
> > Aragorn can be such an arrogant jerk sometimes.
> Wouldn't you, with an ancestry *and* a fiancée like
> his?
I certainly hope not. Especially the ancestry thing. Would you be
impressed by someone who claims to have the blood of King Arthur
in their veins? And Isildur is even longer ago.
T.
aelfwina
"Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
news:2l2finF...@uni-berlin.de...
Well, if the person had actual proof that he was a direct descendant of a
real King Arthur--yea, I'd be impressed. And for Aragorn, you can't get
better proof than the testimony of the still living twin brother of his
ultimate ancestor. But I don't see Aragorn as an arrogant jerk, ever. I
*like* Aragorn.
Barbara
T.
>
>
Taemon
> > > Taemon:
> > Would you be impressed by someone who claims to have
> > the blood of King Arthur in their veins? And Isildur is
> > even longer ago.
> Well, if the person had actual proof that he was a direct
> descendant of a real King Arthur--yea, I'd be impressed.
It's a long time ago; there wouldn't me much left. And if there
is one descendant, there are bound to be thousands. How many
people could claim kinship with Attilla the Hun, again?
> And for Aragorn, you can't get better proof than the
> testimony of the still living twin brother of his
> ultimate ancestor. But I don't see Aragorn as an
> arrogant jerk, ever. I *like* Aragorn.
I like him in the earlier parst. But as the book proceeds he
becomes more and more like a robot. An arrogant robot ;-)
T.
aelfwina
Oh, well, different strokes, and all that. I do see that he becomes more
formal as he has to take on Gondorian manners, but I don't see him losing
his "Strider-ness", just as using a different kind of cloak to blend in,
another Ranger skill.
Barbara
>
> T.
>
>
Taemon
> Oh, well, different strokes, and all that. I do see that
> he becomes more formal as he has to take on Gondorian
> manners, but I don't see him losing his "Strider-ness",
> just as using a different kind of cloak to blend in,
> another Ranger skill.
Well, it isn't only Aragorn. Speech is getting more formal by
everyone further on in the book. I miss the humour.
T.
Raven
> Raven wrote:
> > Taemon:
Whoever the model was that the King Arthur myths were based on, even if
there was only one historical person with that distinction, if he left any
descendants at all then probably most Europeans can name him among their
ancestors. Though in Britain people can probably name him as an ancestor
through many more lines than people in the Urals can.
But we are talking about Aragorn here, a character in a world where
ancestry does confer more than just status in society.
Raaf.
Belba Grubb from Stock
<em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
<snip very helpful timeline -- thanks!>
>> In the "What if" category, what if Gandalf had not returned? Would
>> Aragorn have been able to draw on his earlier conversations with
>> Theoden to heal him and bring the Riders to Gondor's aid in time?
>
>But by the time Aragorn and company had gotten to Edoras it probably
>would have been ruins, Theoden dead and either Eowyn forcibly wed to
>Grima or dead. Remember they have lost their horses and will have to
>walk there, a several day journey.
Oh yes, that's right. Eomer would probably have been executed, too.
Barb
Belba Grubb from Stock
wrote:
>> Legolas: He really comes alive here in many ways.
>
>He shows us now many of the traits of Elves that up till now we have only
>glimpsed in passing or been told about: tirelessness, the ability to go long
>periods without rest, and though we have seen him use his keen Elven
>eyesight before, it has not been so impressive.
The one thing that confused me somewhat is how he slept -- he would
lie down with his eyes open, but he would also sleep while running.
That seems a little strange, but my cat would certainly envy the
ability (g).
>> Finally, there seems to be an in-depth look at the qualities of
>> leadership in this chapter. One of those qualities would be to listen
>> when the heart speaks clearly, as Aragorn did in the last chapter; in
>> this chapter Eomer has done the same thing, even though it meant
>> disobeying his king. He also exhibits several other qualities of a
>> good leader and ruler.
>>
>> I just love the interaction between Eomer and Aragorn, especially at
>> first. It's so macho initially, with Eomer on horseback advancing
>> until the point of his spear is almost touching Aragorn, who is on
>> foot and does not move. Then the Rider jumps off his horse and starts
>> talking with them and Aragorn tests him, it seems, by waiting to see
>> if he will listen after he has been stirred to great anger. Only when
>> Eomer shows he is capable of this does Aragorn reveal his true
>> identity. By the end of their discussion they have an instinctive
>> trust of each other. It's really fascinating how that all develops.
>
>This scene is one of my favorite confrontations in the story. I love how we
>see Gimli's reaction to slander of the Lady, and Legolas leaping to Gimli's
>defense, and how Aragorn is easily able to back them down. These three have
>definitely bonded in a special way on their quest to rescue Merry and
>Pippin.
While working on this chapter summary I remembered where Merry and
Pippin were finally laid to rest many, many years later: at Aragorn's
side. It seems so fitting after reading this chapter.
>And you are right as well about how Eomer shows his quality. And he deals
>with his own little bit of dissent: "Peace, Eothain!" We don't see very much
>at all of this character except for the one little moment, yet I have an
>indelible impression of Eothain's personality just from his one little bit
>part, here and where the horses are given. Young, brash, outspoken, a
>privileged kinsman of Eomer, and yet loyal and well-disciplined. Amazing
>little personality sketch for a minor character.
If one could point to any particular ability of JRRT's and call it
proof of genius, it might be this skill of his to create in so few
words such a strong character. And perhaps the best example of that
(skipping ahead a bit) would be his characterization of Eowyn in "The
King of the Golden Hall" (more on that later).
Barb
Christopher Kreuzer
> Well, it isn't only Aragorn. Speech is getting more formal by
> everyone further on in the book. I miss the humour.
I _like_ the formal speech. But then I like 'The Silmarillion'.
Anyway, LotR does have a high, noble and tragic tale to tell.
Humour has its place in LotR, but I am glad it is used sparingly.
Unlike in a certain film...
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Christopher Kreuzer
[about Legolas]
> The one thing that confused me somewhat is how he slept -- he would
> lie down with his eyes open, but he would also sleep while running.
I think it was described as his mind reliving past memories or just
dreaming. He wasn't really sleeping, just resting his mind.
aelfwina
The humor is still there, even in one of the more serious parts of the
story, in the Houses of Healing. He jokes with Merry about the pipe-weed,
and he has some rather sarcastic words for the expert in herbs who can't
seem to lay his hands on the athelas. He is quite funny in those bits, and
that's even after some of the more formal and high-flown speeches. But
we're getting ahead of our chapter. 8-)
Barbara
>
> T.
>
>
Hashemon Urtasman
Today they had a story about some restaurant offering a free meal for
anybody descended from Genghis Khan, at the Prancing (err, the Shish)
restaurant.
While watching TV footage of the Saddam trial, I noticed he too had some
Mongolian type features, probably not uncommon in Iraq given the Mongols
brief rule over that country 1,000 years ago. You never know.
About 16 million people in Asia are descended from GK. Although the
same number of people might claim to be descended from Alexander the
Great also, even though he had no surviving offspring (they were put to
death AFAIK.) Might as well be descended from the Sun itself, or Zeus,
or Apollo for all that matters.
Hasan
DNA Test to Check for Genghis Khan Kin
By JILL LAWLESS
Associated Press Writer
July 6, 2004, 3:26 PM EDT
LONDON -- A London restaurant is offering diners the chance to learn
whether they are descended from the rampaging Mongol ruler Genghis Khan
-- and win a free meal if they are.
The promotion by the restaurant Shish has proved surprisingly popular,
exemplifying how Genghis Khan, once reviled in the West as a tyrant, has
gained new respect in his own country and among academics.
"We've had Mongolian people who've traveled across London to give us
their details," said Hugo Malik, bar manager of Shish, which is giving
away one DNA test at each of its two London branches every day through
Friday.
"They said, 'Grandad always used to tell us we were descended from
Genghis Khan.'"
Grandad may have been right. Oxford Ancestors, the firm doing the
testing, says as many as 17 million men in Central Asia share a pattern
of Y chromosomes within their genetic sequences, indicating a common
ancestor.
Since Genghis Khan conquered vast tracts of Asia and Europe in the 12th
and 13th centuries and sired many offspring, it was assumed that the men
share his genetic fingerprint.
"He was an all-conquering tribal leader," said David Ashworth, a
geneticist and chief executive of Oxford Ancestors. "He took their
cities, he took their land, he took their women."
Because there are no known tissue samples from Genghis Khan, the genetic
tests are based on an assessment of probabilities.
The tests are part of the burgeoning field of bioarchaeology, which uses
biological techniques to learn about ancient ancestors. Oxford
Ancestors, founded four years ago by Oxford University geneticist Bryan
Sykes, offers DNA testing to people seeking to trace their genetic roots.
Sykes believes DNA testing can map humanity's common ancestry. In 1994,
he extracted genetic samples from the Iceman, a frozen 5,000-year-old
corpse found in the Tyrolean Alps, and identified a woman in Britain as
his descendant.
Sykes' 2001 book, "The Seven Daughters of Eve," claimed that 95 percent
of Europeans were descended from seven tribal matriarchs -- he dubbed
them Ursula, Xenia, Helena, Velda, Tara, Katrine and Jasmine -- who
lived between 10,000 and 45,000 years ago.
For $330, Oxford Ancestors will tell customers which maternal clan they
belong to. The Genghis Khan test is part of a plan to do the same for
paternal ancestry by mapping patterns of Y chromosomes, the genetic
material handed down from fathers to sons that changes little over
generations.
Women have two X chromosomes, while men carry one X chromosome and one Y
-- so only men can take the Genghis Khan test.
"At certain markers on the Y chromosome, if it matches the Genghis Khan
pattern, then on the balance of probability you are descended from the
Great Khan," Ashworth said.
Shish, which specializes in grilled kebabs, said it was offering the
tests to honor Mongolia's decision to reintroduce surnames.
In the 1990s, Mongolia's democratic government decided to reverse a
70-year-old policy that banned surnames in hopes of breaking the power
of feudal clans. By June 30, more than half the population had chosen
the name Borjigin, or Master of the Blue Wolf -- Genghis Khan's clan name.
It was the latest step in the rehabilitation of the Mongol ruler.
Reviled in the West as a bloodthirsty conqueror and condemned in
communist Mongolia as a symbol of a backward past, Genghis Khan is now
celebrated by Mongolians as the father of their nation.
Many Western academics also have reassessed his legacy, recasting him as
a brilliant military tactician, innovative ruler and early globalizer
whose empire, at one point stretching from the Sea of Japan to the
Danube, saw an unprecedented mingling of goods and cultures.
Genghis Khan's descendants should "feel a sense of pride that they are
descended from such a successful leader of men," Ashworth said.
"These ancient conquerors lived in a very different world to us, and
where they got was because of their own hard work. We can't really judge
them morally."
* __
On the Net:
Shish: www.shish.com
Oxford Ancestors: www.oxfordancestors.com
Copyright © 2004, The Associated Press
Emma Pease
> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
>
>
> To check out the other Chapters of the Week or to sign up to do a
> chapter of your own, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org. Anybody
> signed up for Chapter 3 yet?
> _____________________
> They exchange news, with the Hunters
> learning that Rohan is not at open war yet with Sauron and there is
> division among the Rohirrim about whether Rohan should aid Gondor if
> summoned; Eomer also hints to Aragorn that there is trouble in the
> halls of Theoden King; they also find out that Saruman has claimed
> lordship over the land and there has been war with him for several
> months, including an ongoing battle right now in the Westemnet.
> Saruman has Orcs, Wolf-riders and evil Men in his service. Eomer's
> charge is the Eastemnet, and when he heard of them, Eomer pursued the
> Orcs without the king's leave, fearing a league between Saruman and
> Sauron. He caught up with the Orc band at the edge of Fangorn Forest
> and destroyed them all.
> Well, that's just some of the stuff I saw here. Comments, additions…?
I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did
Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?
In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but Grima's word
is not to be trusted. However
Feb. 25
- Theodred killed in the evening
Feb 27
- previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
- noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished Tales)
- midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight 27/28)
Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed the
news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't know how he
could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan desperately needs troops
westward. Indeed if he had known, I don't know why he would not have
told Aragorn when trying to persuade him to return with him.
Unfinished Tales does mention that the third marshal's homebase is not
Edoras but at Aldburg in the Eastfold. Here
follows speculation.
1. Eomer is at Aldburg not Edoras when he receives news of the Orc
party and fearing has he said a linkup between Saruman and Sauron
wants to destroy them (aside, Eomer doesn't know that Saruman and
Sauron have a much more reliable method of communicating).
2. Eomer sends a message to Edoras and asks permission to pursue
3. This news arrives at Edora about the same time the news of
Theodred's death. Grima does not permit the news of Theodred's death
to get to Aldburg but Theoden doesn't know that Eomer hasn't been
told.
4. Grima not knowing the importance of the orc party decides to goad
Eomer into pursuing it by (a) having Theoden forbid it and (b) not
passing on the full news of what has happened at the Isen to Eomer
which would probably cause Eomer to insist on going west instead.
Grima is probably hoping that once Eomer returns the set of
circumstances will cause Theoden to throw Eomer into prison (which did
happen) and further hamstring the defense.
comments?
Shanahan
Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> opined:
> In article <as4le0t1hbp5fkemu...@4ax.com>, Belba
> Grubb from Stock wrote:
>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
>> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
> I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did
> Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?
> In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but
> Grima's word is not to be trusted. However
> Feb. 25
> - Theodred killed in the evening
> Feb 27
> - previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
> - noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished
> Tales)
> - midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight
> 27/28)
>
> Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed
> the news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't
> know how he could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan
> desperately needs troops westward. Indeed if he had known, I
I can't recall the reference, but I believe Eomer was at Edoras,
and was indeed forbidden to chase the orc-troop. That's why he is
arrested when he returns to Edoras after killing the orcs and
meeting the Three Hunters. Eomer, however, fears that Saruman will
join forces with Sauron, and so he believes it's crucially
important to break this troop of orcs. He leads out his own men,
men who owe their allegiance directly to him and who are willing to
follow him even against the King's wishes (via Wormtongue), his
eored. I think this is in the Appendices to LotR?
Ciaran S.
--
"To sum up: your father, whom you love, dies;
you are his heir, you come back to find that
hardly was the corpse cold before his younger brother
popped onto his throne and into his sheets,
thereby offending both legal and natural practice.
Now *why exactly* are you behaving in this extraordinary manner?"
- t.stoppard
Yuk Tang
_Gc.700$aH3.6...@news-text.cableinet.net:
> Taemon <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
>
>> Well, it isn't only Aragorn. Speech is getting more formal by
>> everyone further on in the book. I miss the humour.
>
> I _like_ the formal speech. But then I like 'The Silmarillion'.
> Anyway, LotR does have a high, noble and tragic tale to tell.
> Humour has its place in LotR, but I am glad it is used sparingly.
> Unlike in a certain film...
Airplane?
--
Cheers, ymt.
Henriette
> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
>
> To check out the other Chapters of the Week or to sign up to do a
> chapter of your own, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org. Anybody
> signed up for Chapter 3 yet?
Thank you Grub, great job!
(snip)
> at the
> furthest point of the hobbit tracks away from the trail he finds the
> brooch of an Elven cloak.
The brooch is described as having the shape of the leaf of a
beech-tree. In the film it has the shape of an *ivy*-leaf. (she said
accusingly).
Henriette
Christopher Kreuzer
> Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> opined:
>>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
>>> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
> <snip>
>> I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did
>> Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?
>> In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but
>> Grima's word is not to be trusted. However
>> Feb. 25
>> - Theodred killed in the evening
>> Feb 27
>> - previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
>> - noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished
>> Tales)
>> - midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight
>> 27/28)
>>
>> Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed
>> the news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't
>> know how he could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan
>> desperately needs troops westward. Indeed if he had known, I
>
> I can't recall the reference, but I believe Eomer was at Edoras,
ToY (Appendix B) entry for 27 February 3019 says that Eomer set out from
"Eastfold". No mention of Edoras. However, the entry for 30 February
(they really _do_ use a different calendar...) talks about Eomer
"returning to Edoras", which might imply that he set out from there.
I would agree with the thought that Eomer did not know about the death
of Theodred and the outcome of the First Battle of the Fords of Isen.
Maybe this is mentioned later in the book at Edoras?
Jim Deutch
But in ME, having the blood of ancient heroes actually *means*
something, unlike RL (where about the only thing it could mean is that
you've inherited some genetic quirks or defects). In ME, inherent
power is passed down the line of inheritence, not just things like
blue eyes and haemophilia...
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
"We should admire his good fortune, passing on at the peak of his
wisdom and perishing for a cause in which he believed (suppression of
stem cell research)." -- Bruce Feist (on Reagan's death)
Shanahan
> Grubb from Stock wrote:
>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
>> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
As Christopher says in another post here, the Tale of Years has
Eomer leaving the "Eastfold", which fits with your speculation.
> 2. Eomer sends a message to Edoras and asks permission to pursue
> 3. This news arrives at Edora about the same time the news of
> Theodred's death. Grima does not permit the news of Theodred's
> death to get to Aldburg but Theoden doesn't know that Eomer
> hasn't been told.
> 4. Grima not knowing the importance of the orc party decides to
This is the only part that I have trouble with. Otherwise, I
really like your idea. One thing it does for me, is it allows for
Eomer to gather his eored and set off after the Orcs in record
time. If Eomer was at Edoras, as I thought at first, then it would
have taken him much longer to get to the Eastfold and round them
up.
But even if Grima has no idea of the importance of this party of
orcs, I still don't think he's got the wrinklies to interfere that
much in something Saruman was doing. He must know that these are
Saruman's orcs, yes? In fact, if Eomer knows that they are both
Isengard and Mordor orcs, then Grima probably knows that too.
Would he be courageous or desperate enough to interfere with both
his master *and* Sauron?
Ciaran S.
--
The Wave Mag: Do you read Gandalf slash?
Ian McKellen: Well, I'm quite a fan of pornography.
I think it's a very good idea. I think it stops
people from going out and hurting each other.
TW: What shocks you?
IM: Newspapers are full of it.
Nolan
Yeah, he can come across that way. One of the big differences I saw in
the film character of Aragorn was that the book character didn't have
the doubt about his destiny that was portrayed in the film - he had
doubts sometimes about exactly what he needed to do, but he was never
in question about his own role. Right from the first time we meet him,
IIRC, he comments about the Sword - "The time is coming when it shall
be forged again" or words to that effect. I guess the doubt-plagued
Aragorn was a more interesting film character, but the original was
sure of himself to the point of arrogance.
To hark back to a previous chapter, that may also be a reason that he
could endure Galadrial's gaze - his heart's desire was no secret - to
destroy Sauron, assume his rightful role as King of Gondor, and wed
Arwen.
Nolan
Troels Forchhammer
Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> enriched us with:
>
<snip>
> I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did
> Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?
Good question.
> In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but Grima's word
> is not to be trusted. However
>
> Feb. 25
> - Theodred killed in the evening
The date is also in the Tale of Years (ToY).
Feb 26
- The ToY has, "Éomer hears of the descent of the Orc-band from the
Emyn Muil."
> Feb 27
> - previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
> - noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished
> Tales)
> - midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight
> 27/28)
ToY: "Éomer against Théoden's orders sets out from Eastfold about
midnight to pursue the Orcs."
With the two ToY entries in mind, my impression is that Éomer and his
éored took off 'about midnight' the 26th/27th. Leaving about midnight
certainly suggests to me a great deal of haste, and since he went off
with his personal éored he didn't have to wait to get riders coming in
from far away: they were all there with him. Spending a few hours packing
and gathering the men from the town (Edoras) and then leaving in a haste
shortly after midnight makes sense to me -- spending more than a day
debating, packing and rounding up the riders and then leaving in a haste
in the middle of the night seems less sensible (I know - perfectly
reasonable explanations could be devised, but I still think they would be
less sensible than Éomer and his éored leaving as quickly as possible --
just a few hours after learning about the Orcs, and /before/ they learn
of Théodred's death).
> Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed the
> news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't know how he
> could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan desperately needs troops
> westward.
Agreed. Especially as UT tells us that Erkenbrand's message that told of
the death of Théodred also contained Erkenbrand's "own prayer that Éomer
should be sent at once with all help that could be spared." Apart from
Théodred's last words, "Let me lie here -- to keep the Fords till Eomer
comes!".
I can't imagine Éomer going off to chase a company of Orcs after having
received such a message.
> Indeed if he had known, I don't know why he would not have told Aragorn
> when trying to persuade him to return with him.
That too.
> Unfinished Tales does mention that the third marshal's homebase is not
> Edoras but at Aldburg in the Eastfold. Here follows speculation.
I'd better quote part of the appendix:
[UT 3,V,App (i) 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen']
" In times of war or unquiet each Marshal of the Mark had
under his immediate orders, as part of his 'household' (that
is, quartered under arms at his residence) an éored ready for
battle which he could use in an emergency at his own
discretion. This was what Éomer had in fact done;* but the
charge against him, urged by Gríma, was that the King had in
this case forbidden him to take any of the still uncommitted
forces of the East-mark from Edoras, which was insufficiently
defended; that he knew of the disaster of the Fords of Isen
and the death of Théodred before he pursued the Orcs into the
remote Wold; and that he had also against general orders
allowed strangers to go free, and had even lent them horses."
* "I.e., when Éomer pursued the Orcs, captors of Meriadoc and
Peregrin, who had come down into Rohan from the Emyn Muil. The
words that Éomer used to Aragorn were: 'I led forth my éored,
men of my own household' (The Two Towers III 2)."
> 1. Eomer is at Aldburg not Edoras when he receives news of the Orc
> party and fearing has he said a linkup between Saruman and Sauron
> wants to destroy them (aside, Eomer doesn't know that Saruman and
> Sauron have a much more reliable method of communicating).
There is, IMO, no doubt that Wormtongue's accusations were false, and it
is not unlikely that he was indeed at Aldburg (the passage mentions
specifically that his éored was "quartered under arms at his residence").
Éomer and his éored might, of course, have been at Edoras, making
Wormtongue's accusations at least partly true (a better mix when making
false accusations). I don't think it matters, though -- as I said above,
I think he left a day earlier than you suggest, putting him and his éored
on their horses about twelve hours before the arrival of Erkenbrand's
message in Edoras.
<snip>
--
Troels Forchhammer
The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of
thinking with which we created them.
- Albert Einstein
Troels Forchhammer
<snip>
> I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did
> Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?
Good question.
> In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but Grima's word
> is not to be trusted. However
>
> Feb. 25
> - Theodred killed in the evening
The date is also in the Tale of Years (ToY).
Feb 26
- The ToY has, "Éomer hears of the descent of the Orc-band from the
Emyn Muil."
> Feb 27
> - previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
> - noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished
> Tales)
> - midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight
> 27/28)
ToY: "Éomer against Théoden's orders sets out from Eastfold about
midnight to pursue the Orcs."
With the two ToY entries in mind, my impression is that Éomer and his
éored took off 'about midnight' the 26th/27th. Leaving about midnight
certainly suggests to me a great deal of haste, and since he went off
with his personal éored he didn't have to wait to get riders coming in
from far away: they were all there with him. Spending a few hours packing
and gathering the men from the town (Edoras) and then leaving in a haste
shortly after midnight makes sense to me -- spending more than a day
debating, packing and rounding up the riders and then leaving in a haste
in the middle of the night seems less sensible (I know - perfectly
reasonable explanations could be devised, but I still think they would be
less sensible than Éomer and his éored leaving as quickly as possible --
just a few hours after learning about the Orcs, and /before/ they learn
of Théodred's death).
> Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed the
> news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't know how he
> could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan desperately needs troops
> westward.
Agreed. Especially as UT tells us that Erkenbrand's message that told of
the death of Théodred also contained Erkenbrand's "own prayer that Éomer
should be sent at once with all help that could be spared." Apart from
Théodred's last words, "Let me lie here -- to keep the Fords till Eomer
comes!".
I can't imagine Éomer going off to chase a company of Orcs after having
received such a message.
> Indeed if he had known, I don't know why he would not have told Aragorn
> when trying to persuade him to return with him.
That too.
> Unfinished Tales does mention that the third marshal's homebase is not
> Edoras but at Aldburg in the Eastfold. Here follows speculation.
I'd better quote part of the appendix:
[UT 3,V,App (i) 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen']
" In times of war or unquiet each Marshal of the Mark had
under his immediate orders, as part of his 'household' (that
is, quartered under arms at his residence) an éored ready for
battle which he could use in an emergency at his own
discretion. This was what Éomer had in fact done;* but the
charge against him, urged by Gríma, was that the King had in
this case forbidden him to take any of the still uncommitted
forces of the East-mark from Edoras, which was insufficiently
defended; that he knew of the disaster of the Fords of Isen
and the death of Théodred before he pursued the Orcs into the
remote Wold; and that he had also against general orders
allowed strangers to go free, and had even lent them horses."
* "I.e., when Éomer pursued the Orcs, captors of Meriadoc and
Peregrin, who had come down into Rohan from the Emyn Muil. The
words that Éomer used to Aragorn were: 'I led forth my éored,
men of my own household' (The Two Towers III 2)."
> 1. Eomer is at Aldburg not Edoras when he receives news of the Orc
> party and fearing has he said a linkup between Saruman and Sauron
> wants to destroy them (aside, Eomer doesn't know that Saruman and
> Sauron have a much more reliable method of communicating).
There is, IMO, no doubt that Wormtongue's accusations were false, and it
is not unlikely that he was indeed at Aldburg (the passage mentions
specifically that his éored was "quartered under arms at his residence").
> 2. Eomer sends a message to Edoras and asks permission to pursue
>
> 3. This news arrives at Edora about the same time the news of
> Theodred's death. Grima does not permit the news of Theodred's death
> to get to Aldburg but Theoden doesn't know that Eomer hasn't been
> told.
>
> 4. Grima not knowing the importance of the orc party decides to goad
> Eomer into pursuing it by (a) having Theoden forbid it and (b) not
> passing on the full news of what has happened at the Isen to Eomer
> which would probably cause Eomer to insist on going west instead.
> Grima is probably hoping that once Eomer returns the set of
> circumstances will cause Theoden to throw Eomer into prison (which did
> happen) and further hamstring the defense.
>
> comments?
>
>
>> \* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
>> _\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
--
Troels Forchhammer
<snip>
> I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did
> Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?
Good question.
> In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but Grima's word
> is not to be trusted. However
>
> Feb. 25
> - Theodred killed in the evening
The date is also in the Tale of Years (ToY).
Feb 26
- The ToY has, "Éomer hears of the descent of the Orc-band from the
Emyn Muil."
> Feb 27
> - previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
> - noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished
> Tales)
> - midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight
> 27/28)
ToY: "Éomer against Théoden's orders sets out from Eastfold about
midnight to pursue the Orcs."
With the two ToY entries in mind, my impression is that Éomer and his
éored took off 'about midnight' the 26th/27th. Leaving about midnight
certainly suggests to me a great deal of haste, and since he went off
with his personal éored he didn't have to wait to get riders coming in
from far away: they were all there with him. Spending a few hours packing
and gathering the men from the town (Edoras) and then leaving in a haste
shortly after midnight makes sense to me -- spending more than a day
debating, packing and rounding up the riders and then leaving in a haste
in the middle of the night seems less sensible (I know - perfectly
reasonable explanations could be devised, but I still think they would be
less sensible than Éomer and his éored leaving as quickly as possible --
just a few hours after learning about the Orcs, and /before/ they learn
of Théodred's death).
> Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed the
> news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't know how he
> could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan desperately needs troops
> westward.
Agreed. Especially as UT tells us that Erkenbrand's message that told of
the death of Théodred also contained Erkenbrand's "own prayer that Éomer
should be sent at once with all help that could be spared." Apart from
Théodred's last words, "Let me lie here -- to keep the Fords till Eomer
comes!".
I can't imagine Éomer going off to chase a company of Orcs after having
received such a message.
> Indeed if he had known, I don't know why he would not have told Aragorn
> when trying to persuade him to return with him.
That too.
> Unfinished Tales does mention that the third marshal's homebase is not
> Edoras but at Aldburg in the Eastfold. Here follows speculation.
I'd better quote part of the appendix:
[UT 3,V,App (i) 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen']
" In times of war or unquiet each Marshal of the Mark had
under his immediate orders, as part of his 'household' (that
is, quartered under arms at his residence) an éored ready for
battle which he could use in an emergency at his own
discretion. This was what Éomer had in fact done;* but the
charge against him, urged by Gríma, was that the King had in
this case forbidden him to take any of the still uncommitted
forces of the East-mark from Edoras, which was insufficiently
defended; that he knew of the disaster of the Fords of Isen
and the death of Théodred before he pursued the Orcs into the
remote Wold; and that he had also against general orders
allowed strangers to go free, and had even lent them horses."
* "I.e., when Éomer pursued the Orcs, captors of Meriadoc and
Peregrin, who had come down into Rohan from the Emyn Muil. The
words that Éomer used to Aragorn were: 'I led forth my éored,
men of my own household' (The Two Towers III 2)."
> 1. Eomer is at Aldburg not Edoras when he receives news of the Orc
> party and fearing has he said a linkup between Saruman and Sauron
> wants to destroy them (aside, Eomer doesn't know that Saruman and
> Sauron have a much more reliable method of communicating).
There is, IMO, no doubt that Wormtongue's accusations were false, and it
is not unlikely that he was indeed at Aldburg (the passage mentions
specifically that his éored was "quartered under arms at his residence").
> 2. Eomer sends a message to Edoras and asks permission to pursue
>
> 3. This news arrives at Edora about the same time the news of
> Theodred's death. Grima does not permit the news of Theodred's death
> to get to Aldburg but Theoden doesn't know that Eomer hasn't been
> told.
>
> 4. Grima not knowing the importance of the orc party decides to goad
> Eomer into pursuing it by (a) having Theoden forbid it and (b) not
> passing on the full news of what has happened at the Isen to Eomer
> which would probably cause Eomer to insist on going west instead.
> Grima is probably hoping that once Eomer returns the set of
> circumstances will cause Theoden to throw Eomer into prison (which did
> happen) and further hamstring the defense.
>
> comments?
>
>
>> \* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
>> _\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
--
Troels Forchhammer
<snip>
> I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did
> Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?
Good question.
> In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but Grima's word
> is not to be trusted. However
>
> Feb. 25
> - Theodred killed in the evening
The date is also in the Tale of Years (ToY).
Feb 26
- The ToY has, "Éomer hears of the descent of the Orc-band from the
Emyn Muil."
> Feb 27
> - previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
> - noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished
> Tales)
> - midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight
> 27/28)
ToY: "Éomer against Théoden's orders sets out from Eastfold about
midnight to pursue the Orcs."
With the two ToY entries in mind, my impression is that Éomer and his
éored took off 'about midnight' the 26th/27th. Leaving about midnight
certainly suggests to me a great deal of haste, and since he went off
with his personal éored he didn't have to wait to get riders coming in
from far away: they were all there with him. Spending a few hours packing
and gathering the men from the town (Edoras) and then leaving in a haste
shortly after midnight makes sense to me -- spending more than a day
debating, packing and rounding up the riders and then leaving in a haste
in the middle of the night seems less sensible (I know - perfectly
reasonable explanations could be devised, but I still think they would be
less sensible than Éomer and his éored leaving as quickly as possible --
just a few hours after learning about the Orcs, and /before/ they learn
of Théodred's death).
> Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed the
> news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't know how he
> could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan desperately needs troops
> westward.
Agreed. Especially as UT tells us that Erkenbrand's message that told of
the death of Théodred also contained Erkenbrand's "own prayer that Éomer
should be sent at once with all help that could be spared." Apart from
Théodred's last words, "Let me lie here -- to keep the Fords till Eomer
comes!".
I can't imagine Éomer going off to chase a company of Orcs after having
received such a message.
> Indeed if he had known, I don't know why he would not have told Aragorn
> when trying to persuade him to return with him.
That too.
> Unfinished Tales does mention that the third marshal's homebase is not
> Edoras but at Aldburg in the Eastfold. Here follows speculation.
I'd better quote part of the appendix:
[UT 3,V,App (i) 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen']
" In times of war or unquiet each Marshal of the Mark had
under his immediate orders, as part of his 'household' (that
is, quartered under arms at his residence) an éored ready for
battle which he could use in an emergency at his own
discretion. This was what Éomer had in fact done;* but the
charge against him, urged by Gríma, was that the King had in
this case forbidden him to take any of the still uncommitted
forces of the East-mark from Edoras, which was insufficiently
defended; that he knew of the disaster of the Fords of Isen
and the death of Théodred before he pursued the Orcs into the
remote Wold; and that he had also against general orders
allowed strangers to go free, and had even lent them horses."
* "I.e., when Éomer pursued the Orcs, captors of Meriadoc and
Peregrin, who had come down into Rohan from the Emyn Muil. The
words that Éomer used to Aragorn were: 'I led forth my éored,
men of my own household' (The Two Towers III 2)."
> 1. Eomer is at Aldburg not Edoras when he receives news of the Orc
> party and fearing has he said a linkup between Saruman and Sauron
> wants to destroy them (aside, Eomer doesn't know that Saruman and
> Sauron have a much more reliable method of communicating).
There is, IMO, no doubt that Wormtongue's accusations were false, and it
is not unlikely that he was indeed at Aldburg (the passage mentions
specifically that his éored was "quartered under arms at his residence").
> 2. Eomer sends a message to Edoras and asks permission to pursue
>
> 3. This news arrives at Edora about the same time the news of
> Theodred's death. Grima does not permit the news of Theodred's death
> to get to Aldburg but Theoden doesn't know that Eomer hasn't been
> told.
>
> 4. Grima not knowing the importance of the orc party decides to goad
> Eomer into pursuing it by (a) having Theoden forbid it and (b) not
> passing on the full news of what has happened at the Isen to Eomer
> which would probably cause Eomer to insist on going west instead.
> Grima is probably hoping that once Eomer returns the set of
> circumstances will cause Theoden to throw Eomer into prison (which did
> happen) and further hamstring the defense.
>
> comments?
>
>
>> \* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
>> _\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
--
Troels Forchhammer
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> posted for the fourth
time:
>
Quadruple postings :-(
I am /very/ sorry about this -- my newsreader claimed that the post had
not been sent, three times in a row.
I apologise for the inconvenience.
--
Troels Forchhammer
For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to
(a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks.
- (Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites)
Henriette
> in <t6FHc.20576$k4.4...@news1.nokia.com>,
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> posted for the fourth
> time:
>
> Quadruple postings :-(
>
> I am /very/ sorry about this -- my newsreader claimed that the post had
> not been sent, three times in a row.
Don't worry Troels, many of us have experienced this at one time or
another. Although with *four* times in a row..... you could try for
the Guiness Book of Records:-)
Henriette
Emma Pease
> in <slrncepgt...@munin.Stanford.EDU>,
> Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> enriched us with:
>>
>
><snip>
>
>> I've been checking the time scale and also Unfinished Tales. Did
>> Eomer know that Theodred was dead when he went after the orcs?
>
> Good question.
>
>> In Unfinished Tales in one version, Grima said he did but Grima's word
>> is not to be trusted. However
>>
>> Feb. 25
>> - Theodred killed in the evening
>
> The date is also in the Tale of Years (ToY).
>
> Feb 26
> Emyn Muil."
>
>> Feb 27
>> - previous night Eomer learns of the Orc party
>> - noon, news of Theodred's death reaches Edoras (from Unfinished
>> Tales)
>> - midnight, Eomer starts chasing the orcs (I'm guessing midnight
>> 27/28)
>
> midnight to pursue the Orcs."
>
> eored took off 'about midnight' the 26th/27th. Leaving about midnight
> certainly suggests to me a great deal of haste, and since he went off
> from far away: they were all there with him. Spending a few hours packing
> and gathering the men from the town (Edoras) and then leaving in a haste
> shortly after midnight makes sense to me -- spending more than a day
> debating, packing and rounding up the riders and then leaving in a haste
> in the middle of the night seems less sensible (I know - perfectly
> reasonable explanations could be devised, but I still think they would be
> just a few hours after learning about the Orcs, and /before/ they learn
I'm wondering also about timing. If he left at midnight on the 26/27
then it took him about 42 hours to trap the orcs at the edge of
Fangorn (evening of the 28th). If he left at midnight on the 27/28,
then it took about 18 hours. They spent the 29th defeating the orcs,
burning them, and burying their dead. On the 30th they headed back to
Edoras.
I would assume he went as fast as possible and on an intercept line
with the orcs so it should take him approximately the same amount of
time to return to Aldburg or Edoras (or a bit longer since they aren't
in a full out chase and probably camped at night). Note that the
eored does not seem to have caught up to the orcs until the orcs were
near the Entwash and that Aragorn and party saw no traces of the
horsemen until then either.
So when did Eomer get to Edoras? If he took 42 hours to get back,
then he should have arrived about midnight of the 1/2 at the earliest.
It would make more sense I would think for him to have camped the
night and shown up on the morning of the 2nd. Note this is the same
time as Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli arrive but I get the
feeling Eomer had been in prison for at least a few hours. If he took
18 hours, then he arrived sometime on the 1st.
For comparison, Gandalf's party took about 18-20 hours to get to
Edoras. Note that Shadowfax could have gone faster but would have
been limited by the speed of Arod and Hasufel.
Something doesn't seem right.
>> Now if Eomer is at Edoras, I don't know how he could have missed the
>> news of Theodred's death; however if he had known I don't know how he
>> could justify chasing the orcs when Rohan desperately needs troops
>> westward.
>
> Agreed. Especially as UT tells us that Erkenbrand's message that told of
> the death of Theodred also contained Erkenbrand's "own prayer that Eomer
> should be sent at once with all help that could be spared." Apart from
> Theodred's last words, "Let me lie here -- to keep the Fords till Eomer
> comes!".
>
> I can't imagine Eomer going off to chase a company of Orcs after having
> received such a message.
>
>> Indeed if he had known, I don't know why he would not have told Aragorn
>> when trying to persuade him to return with him.
>
> That too.
>
>> Unfinished Tales does mention that the third marshal's homebase is not
>> Edoras but at Aldburg in the Eastfold. Here follows speculation.
>
> I'd better quote part of the appendix:
> [UT 3,V,App (i) 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen']
> " In times of war or unquiet each Marshal of the Mark had
> under his immediate orders, as part of his 'household' (that
> is, quartered under arms at his residence) an eored ready for
> battle which he could use in an emergency at his own
> discretion. This was what Eomer had in fact done;* but the
> charge against him, urged by Gríma, was that the King had in
> this case forbidden him to take any of the still uncommitted
> forces of the East-mark from Edoras, which was insufficiently
> defended; that he knew of the disaster of the Fords of Isen
> and the death of Theodred before he pursued the Orcs into the
> remote Wold; and that he had also against general orders
> allowed strangers to go free, and had even lent them horses."
> * "I.e., when Eomer pursued the Orcs, captors of Meriadoc and
> Peregrin, who had come down into Rohan from the Emyn Muil. The
> words that Eomer used to Aragorn were: 'I led forth my eored,
> men of my own household' (The Two Towers III 2)."
>
>
>> 1. Eomer is at Aldburg not Edoras when he receives news of the Orc
>> party and fearing has he said a linkup between Saruman and Sauron
>> wants to destroy them (aside, Eomer doesn't know that Saruman and
>> Sauron have a much more reliable method of communicating).
>
> There is, IMO, no doubt that Wormtongue's accusations were false, and it
> is not unlikely that he was indeed at Aldburg (the passage mentions
> specifically that his eored was "quartered under arms at his residence").
>
> Eomer and his eored might, of course, have been at Edoras, making
> Wormtongue's accusations at least partly true (a better mix when making
> false accusations). I don't think it matters, though -- as I said above,
> I think he left a day earlier than you suggest, putting him and his eored
> on their horses about twelve hours before the arrival of Erkenbrand's
> message in Edoras.
>
><snip>
>
--
Christopher Kreuzer
[about Eomer's pursuit of the orcs]
> I'm wondering also about timing. If he left at midnight on the 26/27
> then it took him about 42 hours to trap the orcs at the edge of
> Fangorn (evening of the 28th).
You'd expect this to take longer than the return journey. Eastfold is
further from Fangorn Forest than Edoras. They had to find the orcs
first. When they return, they know where they are going, so the journey
is quicker. OTOH, as you say, there was more urgency about the outward
journey. The return journey would not necessarily have been that much
slower, though they, presumably, did not knew the outcome of the (first)
Battle of the Fords of Isen, and suspected that other foes might be
threatening the settlements of Westfold, Edoras and Eastfold (all along
the White Mountains in the south of Rohan).
> If he left at midnight on the 27/28,
From Eastfold.
> then it took about 18 hours.
This is the position to take if you think Edoras and Eastfold are close
enough to make little difference in the riding time. ToY is unclear
which midnight is meant.
> They spent the 29th defeating the orcs,
> burning them, and burying their dead. On the 30th they headed back to
> Edoras.
<snip>
> Note that the
> eored does not seem to have caught up to the orcs until the orcs were
> near the Entwash and that Aragorn and party saw no traces of the
> horsemen until then either.
But Aragorn did hear horses through the ground. If you look up when this
is, and where they are, that might give some indication of where Eomer's
eored might have been.
> So when did Eomer get to Edoras? If he took 42 hours to get back,
> then he should have arrived about midnight of the 1/2 at the earliest.
> It would make more sense I would think for him to have camped the
> night and shown up on the morning of the 2nd. Note this is the same
> time as Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli arrive but I get the
> feeling Eomer had been in prison for at least a few hours. If he took
> 18 hours, then he arrived sometime on the 1st.
This 18-hour journey makes sense.
> For comparison, Gandalf's party took about 18-20 hours to get to
> Edoras. Note that Shadowfax could have gone faster but would have
> been limited by the speed of Arod and Hasufel.
>
> Something doesn't seem right.
Gandalf's party takes 18-20 hours to reach Edoras.
Eomer also takes 18 or so hours to reach Edoras.
Eomer's outward journey takes either 42 hours or 18 hours, depending on
how you interpret the 'midnight' reference in ToY, and whether you think
that finding the orcs took time, and whether you think Edoras and
Eastfold are far enough apart to make a difference in the riding time
from Fangorn Forest.
I'd go for the midnight of the 27/28.
Troels Forchhammer
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
<snip>
> I'd go for the midnight of the 27/28.
I'm finding your arguments compelling -- that would, IMO, mean that he
set out from Aldburg and not from Edoras.
Belba Grubb from Stock
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>.
>...wasn't really sleeping, just resting his mind.
Christopher, that is a classic for use in many different situations.
Thanks!
Barb
_____
Believing is seeing.
-- Anonymous geologist
_____
Igenlode Wordsmith
> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
>
[snip]
> As dawn comes
> Aragorn sees the White Mountains of Gondor in the South and wonders
> out loud, "Shall Men behold the Silver Tree."
When he speaks of the West Wind, do we take it that his meaning is
metaphorical (Numenor - Eldamar?) After all, the West Wind has already
blown in Gondor during the course of his *previous* song :-)
[snip]
> Legolas: He really comes alive here in many ways.
One gets the impression that the two mortals (Man and Dwarf) were
holding him back unnecessarily - could he have continued on alone, and
perhaps caught up with the Orcs? Would he have been able to broker an
escape, if he could have got in contact with the hobbits unseen?
Why haven't we heard anything about Elves apparently not sleeping at
night before, e.g. when Pippin is keeping night-watch in Moria? Has
no-one in the Fellowship really ever noticed?
[snip]
> The Orcs: We really get a better picture of them by looking at the
> things they throw away.
I was a bit puzzled by the single broken shoe - how would a shoe break,
and how did the Orc run on without it? (Lopsidedly, presumably.)
[snip]
> Well, that's just some of the stuff I saw here. Comments, additions…?
>
When Boromir said that he 'lost his horse' at Tharbad, I always assumed
he meant that it was killed, or was drowned in the crossing of the
river. Apparently, though, he really did 'lose' it - since it found its
way back to Rohan! How very careless of him...
"We started on our feet, and we have those still."
"Feet!" said Gimli. "But we cannot eat them as well as walk on them."
Is Gimli complaining that they will now face a long and hungry walk
before they reach supplies, or is he seriously proposing that they
could have eaten Eomer's horses? ;-)
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed
* Never assume malice when ignorance is a possibility *
Belba Grubb from Stock
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>> Note that the
>> eored does not seem to have caught up to the orcs until the orcs were
>> near the Entwash and that Aragorn and party saw no traces of the
>> horsemen until then either.
>
>But Aragorn did hear horses through the ground. If you look up when this
>is, and where they are, that might give some indication of where Eomer's
>eored might have been.
It was on the night of 2/27 that Aragorn heard the hooves, even in his
dreams, "passing in the West." At dawn he said that he heard them
drawing further away, heading northward.
The Three Hunters had started out due west that morning and now were
36 miles out from the East Wall of Rohan, and the Riders were a little
further West than that, far enough away that Gimli couldn't hear them
but not so far away that no rumor of their passing could be heard in
the ground by a Ranger. That he heard it even in his sleep, when he
wasn't listening, seems to indicate that they were fairly close. To
me that signifies that they weren't coming from the West Emnet, on the
other side of the Entwash, which is where they likely would have been
at least part of the time had Eomer started out from Edoras.
By dawn the Riders had turned north, but Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli
had to follow the Orc track northwestward; only later in the day did
it turn north (toward the downs). We could perhaps say that the
Riders at dawn were at or somewhat beyond that northward turning point
on the trail. Could they have reached that point so quickly if they
had come from Edoras?
>> So when did Eomer get to Edoras? If he took 42 hours to get back,
>> then he should have arrived about midnight of the 1/2 at the earliest.
>> It would make more sense I would think for him to have camped the
>> night and shown up on the morning of the 2nd.
Of necessity they had to camp on the eaves of Fangorn after the
battle, but Eomer had "need of haste." He had told Aragorn that there
was "battle even now upon the Westemnet" and he feared it might go
ill; he also knew the King's house was left with little protection
without his eored. I don't think he would have camped on the way back
no matter how tired he and his men were. Likely he arrived at Edoras
some time on the 1st and was promptly imprisoned after threatening to
kill Grima in Theoden's presence.
One wonders how much Grima knew of the whole affair at that point,
that he so strongly urged Eomer's imprisonment (after probably
provoking him to wrath). Two days had passed, enough time for spies
of Saruman to get word to Grima of what had happened. Had Saruman
ordered Eomer's swift imprisonment not only to weaken Rohan militarily
and further divide it internally, but also in case Eomer had somehow
learned something of the hobbit prisoners and perhaps even knew their
present location?
Belba Grubb from Stock
>Belba Grubb from Stock <ba...@dbtech.net> wrote in message news:<as4le0t1hbp5fkemu...@4ax.com>...
>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
>> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
>>
>> To check out the other Chapters of the Week or to sign up to do a
>> chapter of your own, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org. Anybody
>> signed up for Chapter 3 yet?
>
>No. Anyone?
>
>Thank you Grub, great job!
>(snip)
Thanks, Henriette!
>> at the
>> furthest point of the hobbit tracks away from the trail he finds the
>> brooch of an Elven cloak.
>
>The brooch is described as having the shape of the leaf of a
>beech-tree. In the film it has the shape of an *ivy*-leaf. (she said
>accusingly).
Can it be, especially in light of the knowledgeable and detailed
discussion here, in a few languages, of rowan trees and their fruits,
that the distinguishing mark of a true Tolkienista (compared with
somebody just trying to turn a buck) is how well they know their
botany and dendrology? Could be, could be....
:-)
Emma Pease
Hence my thought that his outgoing time and his coming back time was
about the same, 18 hours (plus a little bit extra on the return trip
to get to Edoras).
He would have had to rest the horses. Even Gandalf, Aragorn, and co
had to rest for a few hours when riding from Fangorn to Edoras.
> One wonders how much Grima knew of the whole affair at that point,
> that he so strongly urged Eomer's imprisonment (after probably
> provoking him to wrath). Two days had passed, enough time for spies
> of Saruman to get word to Grima of what had happened. Had Saruman
> ordered Eomer's swift imprisonment not only to weaken Rohan militarily
> and further divide it internally, but also in case Eomer had somehow
> learned something of the hobbit prisoners and perhaps even knew their
> present location?
I doubt Grima knew the specifics of Ugluk's raid or even that it was
occurring but he did have standing orders according to Unfinished
Tales to get Eomer into trouble. Having Eomer thrown into prison
works right into this. Note that Saruman did not know that the orcs
had any prisoners according to Gandalf (see the chapter where Aragorn
and co meet up with Gandalf). Though, depending on how much Eomer
reported on his meeting with Aragorn before being thrown in prison,
Grima might learn that there was a strong possibility of prisoners
being present. I also suspect he would try to get the news to
Saruman, but, I'm not sure how effective his methods of getting news to
Saruman were. Did he have any means short of reporting in person?
Once Eomer threatened to kill Grima, Grima wouldn't have needed much
if any persuasion to get Theoden to throw Eomer into prison (remember
Theoden trusted Grima even if no one else did). Kings tend not to
like their ministers being threatened.
Christopher Kreuzer
> On 6 Jul 2004 Belba Grubb from Stock wrote:
>
>> Chapter of the Week: The Lord of the Rings, Book 3
>> Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
>>
> [snip]
>> As dawn comes
>> Aragorn sees the White Mountains of Gondor in the South and wonders
>> out loud, "Shall Men behold the Silver Tree."
>
> When he speaks of the West Wind, do we take it that his meaning is
> metaphorical (Numenor - Eldamar?) After all, the West Wind has already
> blown in Gondor during the course of his *previous* song :-)
An interesting question. The poem says this of Gondor:
"West Wind blew there; the light upon the Silver Tree/
Fell like bright rain in gardens of the Kings of old/
[...]
"...Shall Men behold the Silver Tree/
Or West Wind blow again between the Mountains and the Sea?"
I would agree that the West Wind could possibly refer to the uttermost
West (Númenor, Eldamar, Aman), but it is more likely to be a general
meaning of well-being, of prosperous times in Gondor. The overall
meaning of the poem is asking whether Gondor will ever be restored to
the grandeur and glory of old. A nostalgic lament for the 'Golden Age'.
Will the times return when the Silver Tree (which I presume means the
White Tree in flower) will be seen again: will the White Tree be
restored and flower again in the courts of the King?
This could be expanded to question whether Aragorn is referring to his
own fate. Maybe he is asking whether he will succeed in his quest to
claim the throne of Gondor and restore its glory as Queen of the
Kingdoms of Men. Compare this to the history of Gondor with Aragorn as
King (in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in Appendix A) and also with the
account of Aragorn's finding (with Gandalf) of the sapling of the White
Tree above Minas Tirith.
So 'West Wind' in this context could mean something quite different from
the 'West Wind' of the lament for Boromir. In the lament, the wind was a
messenger, a bearer of tidings from a particular compass direction.
Here, the West Wind is a metaphor for good times and (the rest of this
sentence is speculation) approval from the West, unlike the East Wind,
which might signify bad times and the influence of Mordor or Morgul.
> [snip]
>
>> Legolas: He really comes alive here in many ways.
>
> One gets the impression that the two mortals (Man and Dwarf) were
> holding him back unnecessarily - could he have continued on alone, and
> perhaps caught up with the Orcs? Would he have been able to broker an
> escape, if he could have got in contact with the hobbits unseen?
Interesting. A bit like Beleg and Gwindor freeing Túrin. I would suspect
not, as surely Legolas would have carried on if so.
> Why haven't we heard anything about Elves apparently not sleeping at
> night before, e.g. when Pippin is keeping night-watch in Moria? Has
> no-one in the Fellowship really ever noticed?
Maybe the stress of worrying about Merry and Pippin led him to break the
"pretend you're sleeping" rule?
> [snip]
>
>> The Orcs: We really get a better picture of them by looking at the
>> things they throw away.
>
> I was a bit puzzled by the single broken shoe - how would a shoe
> break, and how did the Orc run on without it? (Lopsidedly,
> presumably.)
Throw away the other shoe. Or put on the spare pair.
> [snip]
>
>> Well, that's just some of the stuff I saw here. Comments,
>> additions.?
>>
> When Boromir said that he 'lost his horse' at Tharbad, I always
> assumed he meant that it was killed, or was drowned in the crossing
> of the river. Apparently, though, he really did 'lose' it - since it
> found its way back to Rohan! How very careless of him...
It probably ran away. Didn't want to kiss him... :-)
Yuk Tang
> I would agree that the West Wind could possibly refer to the
> uttermost West (Númenor, Eldamar, Aman), but it is more likely to
> be a general meaning of well-being, of prosperous times in Gondor.
> The overall meaning of the poem is asking whether Gondor will ever
> be restored to the grandeur and glory of old. A nostalgic lament
> for the 'Golden Age'.
Even during the early Second Age, the West Wind would have been
associated with approval by the Valar: the West Wind brought the Eldar
from Tol Eressea, Elendil to ME, and in earlier times, the host of
Valinor to Beleriand. Heck, it brought Ar-Pharazon to ME to humble
Sauron, and even the Elendili were proud of that episode.
It's like the Zoroastrian association of light (white) with good, and
dark (black) with bad: west is good, east is bad.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Troels Forchhammer
<em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> enriched us with:
>
<snip>
> I'm wondering also about timing.
So have I -- for quite a bit now ;-)
> If he left at midnight on the 26/27 then it took him about 42 hours
> to trap the orcs at the edge of Fangorn (evening of the 28th).
Right. And he was in position to hear of the descent of the Orcs
already on the 26th, which was the day of the breaking of the
fellowship. That would, IMO, put him quite a lot closer to Emyn Muil
than Edoras, so I quite agree that he must have been in Aldburg.
It would also put him further from Fangorn than Edoras.
Aldburg was in Folde -- the area between the Mountains, the Entwash,
the Snowbourn and the Fenmarch (lets say the Mering Strem). This puts
Aldburg generally south-east of Edoras, while Fangorn (where the
Entwash left the forest) was almost due north of Edoras.
Aldburg was "the most convenient base for the Muster of the Eastmark"
(UT), which makes me guess that it was probably near the Entwash, close
to the mouths of the Entwash (since Éomer heard about the Orcs so
quickly).
> If he left at midnight on the 27/28, then it took about 18 hours.
Yup.
> They spent the 29th defeating the orcs, burning them, and burying
> their dead. On the 30th they headed back to Edoras.
They may have left Fangorn on the afternoon the 29th -- they met the
Three Hunters in the morning of the 30th, and it took Aragorn et Al.
the rest of the day to reach Fangorn, though they probably rode slower
than the Rohirrim.
> I would assume he went as fast as possible and on an intercept
> line with the orcs
As fast as possible -- probably yes, but not directly towards Fangorn,
I think. They would have to find the trail, and probably didn't count
on the speed of the Orcs (which surprises even Aragorn).
> so it should take him approximately the same amount of time to return
> to Aldburg or Edoras
I don't think we can assume that it would take the same time from
Fangorn to Edoras as from Fangorn to Aldburg -- the two distances would
certainly not be the same.
> (or a bit longer since they aren't in a full out chase and probably
> camped at night).
They wouldn't ride full out in the pursuit either -- they had to
conserve some strength for the battle, and on their way back, while
talking with Aragorn, Éomer stresses his need for haste. I'd put them
at roughly the same speed both ways.
> Note that the eored does not seem to have caught up to the orcs until
> the orcs were near the Entwash and that Aragorn and party saw no
> traces of the horsemen until then either.
Might they have been forced to use the Entwade (north of the Snowbourn)
to cross the Entwash? Taking a northern to north-eastern course from
there to find the Orc-trail.
> So when did Eomer get to Edoras? If he took 42 hours to get back,
> then he should have arrived about midnight of the 1/2 at the
> earliest.
I quite agree that 42 hours is too long for that trip -- even if we
move their departure from Fangorn forward by half a day, that would
still only put them in Edoras about about noon on March 1st.
> Note this is the same time as Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli
> arrive but I get the feeling Eomer had been in prison for at least
> a few hours.
I'd guess that he had spent the night in prison. Agreed.
> If he took 18 hours, then he arrived sometime on the 1st.
If he left in the afternoon of the 29th, he could have spent two nights
camping and still have reached Edoras early on the first using more
than 30 hours.
> For comparison, Gandalf's party took about 18-20 hours to get to
> Edoras.
Gandalf and company arrive something like half an hour to an hour after
dawn, which would be about 6:30 (assuming a day length of 11 hours
which would fit about 53 degrees northern latitude at that time of the
year). I think they left about noon, which would put their journey at
about 19 hours.
> Note that Shadowfax could have gone faster but would have been
> limited by the speed of Arod and Hasufel.
But he knew "the way through every fen and hollow" and consequently was
able to be "steering a straight course now for the halls of Théoden"
instead of going the same way as Éomer and his Riders, who went through
the Eastemnet where "the ground [was] firmer" and "the chief northward
track [lay]."
I don't think even Éomer would have been able to make the journey to
Edoras as fast as those guided by Shadowfax; and I can't believe that
he would be able to make that, or an even longer journey, faster.
> Something doesn't seem right.
I think the key is in the distances. If Aldburg was south of the Emyn
Muil, the distance to Fangorn would be far longer than from Edoras in
particular if they had to cross the Entwash by the Entwade.
Assuming that they did conserve some strength for the battle, I'd say
that 42 hours to reach the edge of Fangorn from Aldburg might be a bit
high, but it would still be far more credible, especially if you let
Éomer leave Fangorn in late on the 29th, allowing him some 36 hours or
so to reach Edoras. That would be double the time it took for Gandalf
and company, but these were going the straight way instead of through
Eastemnet, and they only camped for two hours, where Éomer would be
spending two nights camping (accounting for almost all of the 18 hours
longer, so perhaps Éomer took even longer to reach Edoras, depending on
how much quicker Shadowfax's way was than Éomer's).
My best guess is that Éomer received the message about the Orcs in
Aldburg (the message reaching him on the same day as the Orcs went
down), and that he left soon after midnight on the 27th, going by the
long road to first pick up the Orc-trail and then catch up with them.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters.
- Aragorn "Strider", 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Christopher Kreuzer
> It's like the Zoroastrian association of light (white) with good, and
> dark (black) with bad: west is good, east is bad.
And Night and Day, and Morning and Evening, the Moon and the Sun, and
the Two Trees, are other classic dichotomies in Tolkien.
West (as you say) is invariably good. But you have to be careful about
saying that east is bad. That gets used a lot by those seeking
'political' themes in Tolkien (Communism, Middle East vs USA etc.). You
only have to look at where Morgoth set up in the First Age (the North)
to realise that no single compass direction defines evil in ME. And to
get anywhere from the uttermost West, you pretty much have to go East.
I'm sure you knew that, but I just felt it was worth mentioning.
Christopher Kreuzer
> I think the key is in the distances. If Aldburg was south of the Emyn
> Muil, the distance to Fangorn would be far longer than from Edoras in
> particular if they had to cross the Entwash by the Entwade.
Good point about the crossing of the Entwash.
<snip>
> so perhaps Éomer took even longer to reach Edoras, depending
> on how much quicker Shadowfax's way was than Éomer's).
And about Shadowfax knowing the quickest way (though surely the horses
of Rohan would also know the way?). For me, it all seems to work now
with the timings.
Belba Grubb from Stock
<em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
<snip>
>> Of necessity they had to camp on the eaves of Fangorn after the
>> battle, but Eomer had "need of haste." He had told Aragorn that there
>> was "battle even now upon the Westemnet" and he feared it might go
>> ill; he also knew the King's house was left with little protection
>> without his eored. I don't think he would have camped on the way back
>> no matter how tired he and his men were. Likely he arrived at Edoras
>> some time on the 1st and was promptly imprisoned after threatening to
>> kill Grima in Theoden's presence.
>
>Hence my thought that his outgoing time and his coming back time was
>about the same, 18 hours (plus a little bit extra on the return trip
>to get to Edoras).
Yes, he probably left from his home at Aldburg, and while its location
isn't precisely known, it likely wasn't too far from Meduseld.
>He would have had to rest the horses. Even Gandalf, Aragorn, and co
>had to rest for a few hours when riding from Fangorn to Edoras.
Oh yes, that's right -- guess I was thinking they were all junior
Shadowfaxes (g).
>> One wonders how much Grima knew of the whole affair at that point,
>> that he so strongly urged Eomer's imprisonment (after probably
>> provoking him to wrath). Two days had passed, enough time for spies
>> of Saruman to get word to Grima of what had happened. Had Saruman
>> ordered Eomer's swift imprisonment not only to weaken Rohan militarily
>> and further divide it internally, but also in case Eomer had somehow
>> learned something of the hobbit prisoners and perhaps even knew their
>> present location?
>
>I doubt Grima knew the specifics of Ugluk's raid or even that it was
>occurring but he did have standing orders according to Unfinished
>Tales to get Eomer into trouble. Having Eomer thrown into prison
>works right into this. Note that Saruman did not know that the orcs
>had any prisoners according to Gandalf (see the chapter where Aragorn
>and co meet up with Gandalf). Though, depending on how much Eomer
>reported on his meeting with Aragorn before being thrown in prison,
>Grima might learn that there was a strong possibility of prisoners
>being present. I also suspect he would try to get the news to
>Saruman, but, I'm not sure how effective his methods of getting news to
>Saruman were. Did he have any means short of reporting in person?
Well, he would soon be seen by some men to be traveling northward in
the company of Orcs, but that might have been unusual and only because
of the warfare going on in the Westemnet. Yet how would he explain
his absences if he reported regularly to Isengard? Likely there were
go-betweens of some sort, perhaps even Men of the Mark who had been
subverted by Saruman. From Eomer's talk with Aragorn, there was
obviously controversy among the Rohirrim about whether to honor the
call, if Gondor sent for aid. Perhaps some of those opposing Eomer's
faction were planted spies.
>Once Eomer threatened to kill Grima, Grima wouldn't have needed much
>if any persuasion to get Theoden to throw Eomer into prison (remember
>Theoden trusted Grima even if no one else did). Kings tend not to
>like their ministers being threatened.
True. (g)
Troels Forchhammer
>>
<snip>
>> so perhaps Éomer took even longer to reach Edoras, depending on
>> how much quicker Shadowfax's way was than Éomer's).
>
> And about Shadowfax knowing the quickest way (though surely the
> horses of Rohan would also know the way?).
I'm not entirely sure what to make of it. The entire passage reads:
" 'He is steering a straight course now for the halls of
Théoden under the slopes of the White Mountains,' said
Gandalf. 'It will be quicker so. The ground is firmer in
the Eastemnet, where the chief northward track lies,
across the river, but Shadowfax knows the way through
every fen and hollow.'"
and in the following paragraph,
"They came upon many hidden pools, and broad acres of
sedge waving above wet and treacherous bogs; but
Shadowfax found the way, and the other horses followed in
his swath."
My impression is that only Shadowfax would be able to find the way as
he did; the other horses, guided normally by their riders and not
running wild, would know the way through Eastemnet, but Shadowfax's way
was quicker. I may be attributing too much to this horse, but I do want
him to be exceptional in every way ;-)
> For me, it all seems to work now with the timings.
Thanks. Realising that Éomer got the message about the Orcs descending
from Emyn Muil the same night the Fellowship was broken was, to me, the
key -- that would have been impossible in Edoras (it is even longer
than Edoras -- Fangorn), and Éomer would have to have been closer to
the hills, and consequently further from Fangorn.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
Love while you've got
love to give.
Live while you've got
life to live.
- Piet Hein, /Memento Vivere/
Emma Pease
No they camped overnight at Fangorn. Aragorn notes that the Rohirrim
camped overnight with little worry despite felling trees. Remember
Eomer and his eored had to burn the orcs and bury their dead and that
must have taken some time. Aragorn also stopped and spent some time
investigating the orc stopping place and especially the trail coming
in from the east. He was also looking for any signs of other trails
which means his party wasn't going at the fullest possible speed.
>> I would assume he went as fast as possible and on an intercept
>> line with the orcs
>
> As fast as possible -- probably yes, but not directly towards Fangorn,
> I think. They would have to find the trail, and probably didn't count
> on the speed of the Orcs (which surprises even Aragorn).
But they didn't cross the trail until fairly late (Aragorn and co
didn't encounter the outgoing tracks of the eored until after the time
they met with Eomer) so they didn't aim for where the trail was and
then follow it but where they thought it would be. My guess is that
Eomer might have had, even before he led his eored out, horsemen
shadowing the orcs until he was sure of what direction they were
going, Fangorn, then made for the part of Fangorn closest to the orcs
by the fastest way possible (which might not be the shortest as the
crow flies). If the orcs headed west and forded the Entwash, he would
have crossed the trail and adjusted accordingly. If he hadn't
intercepted the trail he would have sent out riders in a fan pattern
to see if they could find the orcs on the wold.
I would also guess that he delayed going out because he wanted
permission from Edoras before going after the orcs and left at
midnight 27/28 because that was the latest he could wait for that
permission and still hope to catch the orcs.
I think 53 North is a bit far north. I would put the Shire at about
the same latitude as Oxford (~52 North) and Fangorn is a fair bit
south.
>> Note that Shadowfax could have gone faster but would have been
>> limited by the speed of Arod and Hasufel.
>
> But he knew "the way through every fen and hollow" and consequently was
> able to be "steering a straight course now for the halls of Théoden"
> instead of going the same way as Éomer and his Riders, who went through
> the Eastemnet where "the ground [was] firmer" and "the chief northward
> track [lay]."
>
> I don't think even Éomer would have been able to make the journey to
> Edoras as fast as those guided by Shadowfax; and I can't believe that
> he would be able to make that, or an even longer journey, faster.
>
>> Something doesn't seem right.
>
> I think the key is in the distances. If Aldburg was south of the Emyn
> Muil, the distance to Fangorn would be far longer than from Edoras in
> particular if they had to cross the Entwash by the Entwade.
But as the mustering place for the east part of Rohan one would think
it fairly accessible to the east part of Rohan. Perhaps the Entwash
had a bridge.
> Assuming that they did conserve some strength for the battle, I'd say
> that 42 hours to reach the edge of Fangorn from Aldburg might be a bit
> high, but it would still be far more credible, especially if you let
> Éomer leave Fangorn in late on the 29th, allowing him some 36 hours or
> so to reach Edoras. That would be double the time it took for Gandalf
> and company, but these were going the straight way instead of through
> Eastemnet, and they only camped for two hours, where Éomer would be
> spending two nights camping (accounting for almost all of the 18 hours
> longer, so perhaps Éomer took even longer to reach Edoras, depending on
> how much quicker Shadowfax's way was than Éomer's).
>
> My best guess is that Éomer received the message about the Orcs in
> Aldburg (the message reaching him on the same day as the Orcs went
> down), and that he left soon after midnight on the 27th, going by the
> long road to first pick up the Orc-trail and then catch up with them.
One other thing I note is the Eomer pursuing the orcs at midnight is
the last entry for the 27th, not the first. If Tolkien put these
entries in chronological order, this would imply the 27/28 midnight
not 26/27 midnight.
Emma
Emma Pease
> On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:32:18 +0000 (UTC), Emma Pease
><em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>> One wonders how much Grima knew of the whole affair at that point,
I don't think Grima had any trouble sending news to Isengard (or even
going himself as one version shows in Unfinished Tales) until after
Gandalf escaped the previous September and strife broke out in the
west. After, Grima may have been more on his own and perhaps having
to guess what Saruman wanted. We don't hear of any other supporters
of Saruman among the men of the Mark so I expect Grima was the only
one.
Doug McDonald
>
> I certainly hope not. Especially the ancestry thing. Would you be
> impressed by someone who claims to have the blood of King Arthur
> in their veins? And Isildur is even longer ago.
Well, since King Arthur is a myth, nobody does.
And no one alive today can prove, or even claim, an unbroken
male line as long as Aragorn's, some 60 generations. The earliest
person anyone alive today can claim a verified line to, an unbroken
male line, verified by both a paper trail and confirmed by DNA,
is a man called Somerled, Lord of the Isles (of northern Scotland)
who died in 1163. This is about 24 generations (there are about
15 people so confirmed, and they of course have different
length lines.) I am his descendant.
In the furure there will probably be older lines proved by DNA,
including those leading to the Prophet Mohammed, who will likely
hold the record for a long time.
Doug McDonald
Taemon
> The earliest person anyone alive today can claim a verified
> line to, an unbroken male line, verified by both a paper
> trail and confirmed by DNA,
> is a man called Somerled, Lord of the Isles (of northern
> Scotland) who died in 1163. This is about 24 generations
> (there are about 15 people so confirmed, and they of
> course have different
> length lines.) I am his descendant.
I am not impressed. Which was the point.
T.
Yuk Tang
Wouldn't everyone alive today be able to point to an unbroken male
line? Personally, I come from an extremely old family that dates back
a billion years and more. Although I admit that, somewhere in my
ancestry, the male line of ascendancy is broken. AFAIK, anyway.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Öjevind Lång
news:Xns953DC1E803EC5...@130.133.1.4...
[snip]
> Wouldn't everyone alive today be able to point to an unbroken male
> line? Personally, I come from an extremely old family that dates back
> a billion years and more. Although I admit that, somewhere in my
> ancestry, the male line of ascendancy is broken. AFAIK, anyway.
Mark Twain wrote that his oldest known ancestor was a friend of the family
called Higgins, and that the mystery as to why the family was called Twain
and not Higgins had never been investigated because fine old families
prefer to let such things remain a mystery.
Öjevind
Raven
news:Xns953DC1E803EC5...@130.133.1.4...
> Wouldn't everyone alive today be able to point to an unbroken male
> line? Personally, I come from an extremely old family that dates back
> a billion years and more. Although I admit that, somewhere in my
> ancestry, the male line of ascendancy is broken. AFAIK, anyway.
That would be around the time that your ancestors evolved from simple
dividing cells, like modern yeast, into sexually reproducing organisms,
which either then or later developed into different sexes rather than
hermaphrodites?
Wu[1] Ya[1].
Yuk Tang
news:nnTQc.2087$496....@news.get2net.dk:
This ain't my specialist subject, but AIUI that would be when my
ancestors took up the practice of sexual, as opposed to asexual,
reproduction. I admit, though, that they were simple folk in those
days.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Emma Pease
That would be quite a feat to even claim unbroken male line back to
Mohammed since supposedly he had no sons who left descendants (he did
have a daughter, Fatima, who left descendants).
There are those claiming unbroken male descent from Confucius (K'ung
fu-tze or Kong fu zi depending in the Romanization used), one of whom
is K'ung Te-Ch'eng (or Kung Teh-Cheng), 77th generation. Proving it
by DNA is another matter but they certainly claim it and probably have
a fairly good paper trail to back it up.
Emma
ps. My guess is that a fairly large proportion of the people,
especially those of British/Irish descent, reading these newsgroups
are descended from Somerled by one line or another. We just don't
know how.
pps. Bringing this back on topic, most of the Dunedain are probably
descended from Elendil and therefore Luthien and Melian by one line or
another especially since most of them practiced endogamy (i.e., they
only married other Dunedain).
Chris Wright
"Yuk Tang" <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns953DC1E803EC5...@130.133.1.4...
Which brings an important point to line: proving an unbroken male line could
only ever mean something if you give a damn about the ancestor you're
related to.
One of my neigbors is a descendant of Tolkien's. Was I impressed when I
found that out? -- no. And that's not even because Tolkien unjustly killed
off Boromir, it's because I judge a person on their own merits, rather than
the merits of their predecessors.
Chris Wright
"Emma Pease" <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:slrnch8dt...@munin.Stanford.EDU...
My guess is that that isn't the case, due to the fact that in the 12th
century AD, the British Isles had thousands, if not millions of people
living on them. If it had five, I think your guess might be well-founded.
> pps. Bringing this back on topic, most of the Dunedain are probably
> descended from Elendil and therefore Luthien and Melian by one line or
> another especially since most of them practiced endogamy (i.e., they
> only married other Dunedain).
Suggesting that Tolkien was not well-informed of the phenomenon known as
inbreeding.
Odysseus
> > And no one alive today can prove, or even claim, an unbroken
> > male line as long as Aragorn's, some 60 generations. The earliest
> > person anyone alive today can claim a verified line to, an unbroken
> > male line, verified by both a paper trail and confirmed by DNA,
> > is a man called Somerled, Lord of the Isles (of northern Scotland)
> > who died in 1163. This is about 24 generations (there are about
> > 15 people so confirmed, and they of course have different
> > length lines.) I am his descendant.
> >
[snip]
>
> ps. My guess is that a fairly large proportion of the people,
> especially those of British/Irish descent, reading these newsgroups
> are descended from Somerled by one line or another. We just don't
> know how.
>
FWIW Somerled certainly appears atop my family tree. As I recall
there are at least two women between him and me (moreover the
document I have predates DNA-tracing, and although I don't have any
reason to question the research that went into it, it certainly
wouldn't qualify as a "paper trail" in itself) so this doesn't bear
on Doug's claim about the scarcity of his verified descendants in an
unbroken paternal line. I presume that they all bear the surname of
MacDonald (likely variously spelt), and that the current Chief of
Clan Donald is one of them.
--
Odysseus
Taemon
> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote
> > I am not impressed. Which was the point.
> Wouldn't everyone alive today be able to point to an
> unbroken male line?
Wouldn't everyone be family if you go back far enough? What's the
point? It's not that if someone descends from Jesus, that person
is bound to be holy.
> Personally, I come from an extremely
> old family that dates back a billion years and more.
Do you still show characteristics of them? :-)
T.
Yuk Tang
berlin.de:
> Yuk Tang wrote:
>> "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote
>
>> > I am not impressed. Which was the point.
>> Wouldn't everyone alive today be able to point to an
>> unbroken male line?
>
> Wouldn't everyone be family if you go back far enough? What's the
> point? It's not that if someone descends from Jesus, that person
> is bound to be holy.
Precisely.
>> Personally, I come from an extremely
>> old family that dates back a billion years and more.
>
> Do you still show characteristics of them? :-)
My earliest ancestors wouldn't recognise me if they saw me, not least
because somewhere along the line we decided to become multi-cellular
organisms. Of course, some of the bible-bashing fundies might
disagree with this assessment of my family tree.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Raven
> This ain't my specialist subject, but AIUI that would be when my
> ancestors took up the practice of sexual, as opposed to asexual,
> reproduction. I admit, though, that they were simple folk in those
> days.
That may explain why they didn't leave diaries for their descendants to
inherit and read. At least I suppose your ancestors that far back didn't,
judging by what mine didn't.
*Amer.
Odysseus
>
> Yuk Tang wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> > Personally, I come from an extremely
> > old family that dates back a billion years and more.
>
> Do you still show characteristics of them? :-)
>
It doesn't "show" in any obvious way, but our biochemistry has plenty
of characteristics in common with that of such distant relatives as
yeast and bacteria. For example the enzymes involved in basic
metabolic functions, like extraction of energy from sugars IIRC, are
very similar in all the organisms that use them.
--
Odysseus
Emma Pease
>
> "Emma Pease" <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>>
>> ps. My guess is that a fairly large proportion of the people,
>> especially those of British/Irish descent, reading these newsgroups
>> are descended from Somerled by one line or another. We just don't
>> know how.
>
> My guess is that that isn't the case, due to the fact that in the 12th
> century AD, the British Isles had thousands, if not millions of people
> living on them. If it had five, I think your guess might be well-founded.
I think you'll find my guess is quite well-founded.
http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/GenealComp1.html
If people in the British Isles then have descendants living nowadays
they are likely to have an extremely large number of them. We know
Somerled has descendants nowadays, we know he has a large number of
traceable descendants (I checked google). He certainly has an even
larger number that aren't traceable, younger sons of poorer families,
daughters who married non-important people, and those born out of
wedlock and all their descendants.
>> pps. Bringing this back on topic, most of the Dunedain are probably
>> descended from Elendil and therefore Luthien and Melian by one line or
>> another especially since most of them practiced endogamy (i.e., they
>> only married other Dunedain).
>
> Suggesting that Tolkien was not well-informed of the phenomenon known as
> inbreeding.
Robert J. Kolker
Chris Wright wrote:
> Suggesting that Tolkien was not well-informed of the phenomenon known as
> inbreeding.
Inbreeding is an efficient way of getting lethal recisives and other
troublesome genetic characteristics out of the line. The price of
efficiency is culling the bad the specimens and not permitting them to
breed. When you get through you have a line that is very free of
recessive nasties.
Bob Kolker
>
>
Chris Wright
> In article <VzXQc.29910$J06.27560@pd7tw2no>, Chris Wright wrote:
> >
> > "Emma Pease" <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>
> >>
> >> ps. My guess is that a fairly large proportion of the people,
> >> especially those of British/Irish descent, reading these newsgroups
> >> are descended from Somerled by one line or another. We just don't
> >> know how.
> >
> > My guess is that that isn't the case, due to the fact that in the 12th
> > century AD, the British Isles had thousands, if not millions of people
> > living on them. If it had five, I think your guess might be
well-founded.
>
> I think you'll find my guess is quite well-founded.
>
> http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/GenealComp1.html
>
> If people in the British Isles then have descendants living nowadays
> they are likely to have an extremely large number of them. We know
> Somerled has descendants nowadays, we know he has a large number of
> traceable descendants (I checked google). He certainly has an even
> larger number that aren't traceable, younger sons of poorer families,
> daughters who married non-important people, and those born out of
> wedlock and all their descendants.
>
I think you may have interpreted the notion of 'relatedness' in a
none-too-informative/none-too-correct way.
At the end of the day, degree of relatedness is really just tantamount to
the amount of common DNA. Every human shares something like 98 or 99% of
their DNA with every other human, so it's the variability with that last 1
or 2 percent that's of any interest in differentiating people genetically,
and of course in determining bloodlines.
Because people can share Somerset's more unique DNA for reasons other than
being a direct descendant of Somerset, that means that to suggest that a
large proportion of this groups' readers are, merely by virtue of having
recent ancestors hailing from the British Isles, descendants of Somerset's,
is fallacious and misleading.
I would instead say, that a fair portion of readers of this group, by virtue
of having ancestors hailing from the British Isles, may be descendants of
either Somerset himself, or Somerset's clansman a good five or six
generations back. Which doesn't really say much.
One mustn't put too much stock in such matters anyway, they don't amount to
much at all, aside from a reason for researchers to justify their
salaries/earn tenure, and something to read about on a dreary Sunday morning
when one has little better to do than read newspapers or scientific
journals.
Chris Wright
"Robert J. Kolker" <robert...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2nlbb4F...@uni-berlin.de...
>
>
> Chris Wright wrote:
>
> > Suggesting that Tolkien was not well-informed of the phenomenon known as
> > inbreeding.
>
> Inbreeding is an efficient way of getting lethal recisives and other
> troublesome genetic characteristics out of the line.
Yes indeed! I would express it as, an efficient way of compounding genes
with deleterious, debilitating effects, often rationalized by a senseless
belief in the 'purity' or superiority of one's own blood. See Commodus
(Gladiator).
TeaLady (Mari C.)
> In article <VzXQc.29910$J06.27560@pd7tw2no>, Chris Wright
> wrote:
>>
>> "Emma Pease" <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>
snipt
>
>>> pps. Bringing this back on topic, most of the Dunedain are
>>> probably descended from Elendil and therefore Luthien and
>>> Melian by one line or another especially since most of
>>> them practiced endogamy (i.e., they only married other
>>> Dunedain).
>>
>> Suggesting that Tolkien was not well-informed of the
>> phenomenon known as inbreeding.
>
>
Which may not be such the bogey-man that Western sensibilities
make it out to be :
http://www.godubai.com/citylife/FM1.asp?article_id=2000/ASK%2346
http://pup.princeton.edu/chapters/s7800.pdf
--
TeaLady (mari)
"Indeed, literary analysis will be a serious undertaking only
when it adopts the mindset of quantum physics and regards the
observer as part of the experiment."
Flame of the West on litcrit
Yuk Tang
news:ffgRc.41405$J06.21339@pd7tw2no:
> Because people can share Somerset's more unique DNA for reasons
> other than being a direct descendant of Somerset, that means that
> to suggest that a large proportion of this groups' readers are,
> merely by virtue of having recent ancestors hailing from the
> British Isles, descendants of Somerset's, is fallacious and
> misleading.
>
> I would instead say, that a fair portion of readers of this group,
> by virtue of having ancestors hailing from the British Isles, may
> be descendants of either Somerset himself, or Somerset's clansman
> a good five or six generations back. Which doesn't really say
> much.
I thought that people from the West Country would have mixed their DNA
with certain fluffier family members? Or is that only true of those
from north of the Bristol Channel?
--
Cheers, ymt.
Ooo-arrrrr.
Taemon
> My earliest ancestors wouldn't recognise me if they saw
> me, not least because somewhere along the line we decided
> to become multi-cellular organisms.
Might be a bit hard to see you without eyes. Well, probably your
gut is full of your own family. Gives one a sense of connection,
doesn't it?
> Of course, some of
> the bible-bashing fundies might disagree with this
> assessment of my family tree.
They would probably offend you!
T.
Christopher Kreuzer
And you need salt because your biochemistry is still based on the salty
water of a long-ago sea... That is the connection that always sends
shivers down my spine. The evolution of cellular homeostasis has
preserved a trace of the chemical composition of a long-ago sea in your
body fluids...
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Christopher Kreuzer
> And no one alive today can prove, or even claim, an unbroken
> male line as long as Aragorn's, some 60 generations. The earliest
> person anyone alive today can claim a verified line to, an unbroken
> male line, verified by both a paper trail and confirmed by DNA,
> is a man called Somerled, Lord of the Isles (of northern Scotland)
> who died in 1163. This is about 24 generations (there are about
> 15 people so confirmed, and they of course have different
> length lines.) I am his descendant.
Well, despite Taemon being unimpressed, that did impress me. Does the
"unbroken _male_ line" bit exclude royal families? Surely they can trace
their ancestry further back?
> In the future there will probably be older lines proved by DNA,
> including those leading to the Prophet Mohammed, who will likely
> hold the record for a long time.
Aren't they already doing DNA tests for the descendents of Ghengis Khan?
Sorry, he was a later date than Mohammed. Do they have body remains of
Mohammed to do these tests on? Maybe they will find descendents of some
of the Stone Age mummies they did up from bogs around the world?
Troels Forchhammer
<em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> enriched us with:
>
<snipping>
> One other thing I note is the Eomer pursuing the orcs at midnight
> is the last entry for the 27th, not the first. If Tolkien put
> these entries in chronological order, this would imply the 27/28
> midnight not 26/27 midnight.
This is the bit I can't believe -- that Éomer should have been able to
make a journey longer than that of Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli
in the same time (about 18 hours).
There is, IMO, no way this could be possible.
For the rest I agree.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to
(a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks.
- (Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites)
Jette Goldie
"Öjevind Lång" <dnivej...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
news:76SQc.10836$qn2....@nntpserver.swip.net...
<g> Might have something to do with the fact Mark Twain was
a pen name?
(Mr Samuel Clemens)
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Jette Goldie
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:JUqRc.1470$FW3.14...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> Doug McDonald <mcdo...@scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>
> > In the future there will probably be older lines proved by DNA,
> > including those leading to the Prophet Mohammed, who will likely
> > hold the record for a long time.
>
> Aren't they already doing DNA tests for the descendents of Ghengis Khan?
> Sorry, he was a later date than Mohammed. Do they have body remains of
> Mohammed to do these tests on? Maybe they will find descendents of some
> of the Stone Age mummies they did up from bogs around the world?
They don't have DNA for Ghengis Khan - what they *can* do is
check the DNA of various people who have good claim to descent
from the Khan against *each other* to check for a relationship
in the male line. Mohammed supposedly ascended bodily to
Paradise, IIRC, so it would be hard to get DNA from his body ;-)
but they may be able to check the DNA of the various claimants
against each other for evidence of common ancestors.
(unfortunately I think they can only do this for the male line, so
if his descendants are via a daughter, I'm not sure if this will
work)
There is a restaurant (in London, I think) offering free meals
to the descendants of Ghengis Khan.
Hashemon Urtasman
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:JUqRc.1470$FW3.14...@news-text.cableinet.net...
>
>>Doug McDonald <mcdo...@scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>In the future there will probably be older lines proved by DNA,
>>>including those leading to the Prophet Mohammed, who will likely
>>>hold the record for a long time.
>>
>>Aren't they already doing DNA tests for the descendents of Ghengis Khan?
>>Sorry, he was a later date than Mohammed. Do they have body remains of
>>Mohammed to do these tests on? Maybe they will find descendents of some
>>of the Stone Age mummies they did up from bogs around the world?
>
>
>
> They don't have DNA for Ghengis Khan - what they *can* do is
> check the DNA of various people who have good claim to descent
> from the Khan against *each other* to check for a relationship
> in the male line. Mohammed supposedly ascended bodily to
> Paradise, IIRC, so it would be hard to get DNA from his body ;-)
No it's still there, in Medina. Someone tried to dig a tunnel to get to
it a hundred years ago, but they found it out and stopped it, although
today there is a parking garage underneath the grave-complex now.
Hasan
Shanahan
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> Doug McDonald <mcdo...@scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> In the future there will probably be older lines proved by DNA,
>>> including those leading to the Prophet Mohammed, who will
>>> likely hold the record for a long time.
>>
>> Aren't they already doing DNA tests for the descendents of
>> Ghengis Khan? Sorry, he was a later date than Mohammed. Do they
>> have body remains of Mohammed to do these tests on? Maybe they
>> will find descendents of some of the Stone Age mummies they did
>> up from bogs around the world?
>
> They don't have DNA for Ghengis Khan - what they *can* do is
> check the DNA of various people who have good claim to descent
> from the Khan against *each other* to check for a relationship
> in the male line. Mohammed supposedly ascended bodily to
> Paradise, IIRC, so it would be hard to get DNA from his body ;-)
> but they may be able to check the DNA of the various claimants
> against each other for evidence of common ancestors.
> (unfortunately I think they can only do this for the male line,
> so if his descendants are via a daughter, I'm not sure if this
> will work)
Unless they're using the mitochondrial (RNA?) method, in which case
they can only do it through the female line.
Ciaran S.
--
"I write of the great eternal truths that bind
together all mankind the whole world over.
We eat, we shit, we fuck, we kill, and we die."
- de sade, in _quills_
Öjevind Lång
news:rkxRc.1707$Os7.18...@news-text.cableinet.net...
>
> "Öjevind Lång" <dnivej...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
> news:76SQc.10836$qn2....@nntpserver.swip.net...
[snip]
> > Mark Twain wrote that his oldest known ancestor was a friend of the
family
> > called Higgins, and that the mystery as to why the family was called
Twain
> > and not Higgins had never been investigated because fine old families
> > prefer to let such things remain a mystery.
>
> <g> Might have something to do with the fact Mark Twain was
> a pen name?
>
> (Mr Samuel Clemens)
And his middle name was Langhorne - no doubt to commemorate that "ancestor"
who had horns put upon his head by Mr Higgins and Mrs Clemens.
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
news:cf6lv...@enews4.newsguy.com...
[snip]
> > They don't have DNA for Ghengis Khan - what they *can* do is
> > check the DNA of various people who have good claim to descent
> > from the Khan against *each other* to check for a relationship
> > in the male line. Mohammed supposedly ascended bodily to
> > Paradise, IIRC, so it would be hard to get DNA from his body ;-)
> > but they may be able to check the DNA of the various claimants
> > against each other for evidence of common ancestors.
> > (unfortunately I think they can only do this for the male line,
> > so if his descendants are via a daughter, I'm not sure if this
> > will work)
>
> Unless they're using the mitochondrial (RNA?) method, in which case
> they can only do it through the female line.
Mohammed only had offspring through daughters (his only son died very
young), and the only descendants who count are the ones through his daughter
Fatima and her husband (and Mohammed's cousin) Ali. It should be possible to
check how many of the claimed descendants of Mohammed through those two are
genuine.
Öjevind
Jim Deutch
wrote:
>
>"Emma Pease" <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>news:slrnchata...@munin.Stanford.EDU...
>> In article <VzXQc.29910$J06.27560@pd7tw2no>, Chris Wright wrote:
>> >
>> > "Emma Pease" <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>>
>> >>
>> >> ps. My guess is that a fairly large proportion of the people,
>> >> especially those of British/Irish descent, reading these newsgroups
>> >> are descended from Somerled by one line or another. We just don't
>> >> know how.
>> >
>> > My guess is that that isn't the case, due to the fact that in the 12th
>> > century AD, the British Isles had thousands, if not millions of people
>> > living on them. If it had five, I think your guess might be
>well-founded.
>>
>> I think you'll find my guess is quite well-founded.
>>
>> http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/GenealComp1.html
>>
>> If people in the British Isles then have descendants living nowadays
>> they are likely to have an extremely large number of them. We know
>> Somerled has descendants nowadays, we know he has a large number of
>> traceable descendants (I checked google). He certainly has an even
>> larger number that aren't traceable, younger sons of poorer families,
>> daughters who married non-important people, and those born out of
>> wedlock and all their descendants.
>>
>
>I think you may have interpreted the notion of 'relatedness' in a
>none-too-informative/none-too-correct way.
I think you may have not read or understood the paragraph above,
Chris. I'll repeat the critical passage:
>> If people in the British Isles then
["then" being 12th century]
>> have descendants living nowadays
>> they are likely to have an extremely large number of them.
This is a well-known fact. Most "bloodlines" die out over time.
After hundreds of years, most people have left _no_ descendents.
Those who have any descendents typically have _lots_ of them. It is a
direct consequence of standard population statistics.
Your point about such "relatedness" having hang-dog to do with
anything (other than the incidence of genetic quirks) is well-taken.
Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)
--
For some reason this is never our really unique adaptation, the
largest asses (in terms of body mass) ever produced by evolution.
Humans are truly the Lords of the Buttock. - James Nicoll
AC
Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Doug McDonald <mcdo...@scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>> And no one alive today can prove, or even claim, an unbroken
>> male line as long as Aragorn's, some 60 generations. The earliest
>> person anyone alive today can claim a verified line to, an unbroken
>> male line, verified by both a paper trail and confirmed by DNA,
>> is a man called Somerled, Lord of the Isles (of northern Scotland)
>> who died in 1163. This is about 24 generations (there are about
>> 15 people so confirmed, and they of course have different
>> length lines.) I am his descendant.
>
> Well, despite Taemon being unimpressed, that did impress me. Does the
> "unbroken _male_ line" bit exclude royal families? Surely they can trace
> their ancestry further back?
Weren't there some Medieval Italian families that could trace the roots back
to the Roman senatorial families? Surely some of these families must still
be around, and have some genealogical knowledge going back the better part
of two millennia.
<snip>
--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com
WOODY: How's it going Mr. Peterson?
NORM : It's a dog eat dog world out there, Woody, and I'm wearing
milkbone underwear.
Yuk Tang
news:slrnchltvk.r33....@aaronclausen.alberni.net:
> Weren't there some Medieval Italian families that could trace the
> roots back to the Roman senatorial families? Surely some of these
> families must still be around, and have some genealogical
> knowledge going back the better part of two millennia.
The Roman senatorial families had a habit of going extinct. Those
which did keep going often did so by bringing in new blood via
adoption. NB. Augustus' almost farcical efforts at encouraging his
patricians to breed; extra comical and almost tragic, considering that
he was one of their prime exterminators in his early days.
Of course, there would have been other branches which _did_ keep going,
but they're less likely to be documented and hence traceable. Add the
Roman taste for fabricating family histories, and what documents do
exist aren't going to be reliable.
--
Cheers, ymt.
R. Dan Henry
wrote:
>Which brings an important point to line: proving an unbroken male line could
>only ever mean something if you give a damn about the ancestor you're
>related to.
I think the unbroken male line thing is more significant when: (a) it
still has a (controversial, but possibly acceptable) claim on a
surviving throne and (b) comes with a nifty magic sword. If King
Arthur's descendant showed up with Excalibur and started offing
terrorists with it, he'd probably at least get some interest in his
ancestry.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com