QT's honour code
Skander Halim
Why do people always say that Tarantino characters follow a certain moral
code and are rewarded for being honourable? This just isn't true.
- Butch goes back to save Marsellus, but he gains nothing, because Zed and
Maynard would have killed Marsellus anyway.
- Marvin Nash resists torture and reveals nothing. His reward? Killed
off-handedly.
- White stands up for Orange because he believes in the man's integrity.
He is shot for his troubles.
- Orange reveals to White that he's a cop. He's shot in the head.
I think the whole point of Tarantino's movies is that you're *not*
rewarded for being honourable, nor are you punished for being dishonourable.
Shit just happens.
--
Skander Halim
"You're the weak, and I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm trying real
hard to be the shepherd."
c.t. pierson
Skander Halim <ba...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>Why do people always say that Tarantino characters follow a certain moral
>code and are rewarded for being honourable? This just isn't true.
>
>- Butch goes back to save Marsellus, but he gains nothing, because Zed and
>Maynard would have killed Marsellus anyway.
Nonsense. Marsellus no longer has goons waiting in rice bowls all over
Indochina on account of Butch's actions. If he'd died, it's quite
possible that someone would have still dealt with Butch--since he lived,
Butch gets off, with the loss of his L.A. privileges.
In addition, one could argue Butch regains his self-respect by living up
to his family's tradition of heroism and honour in battle.
>- Marvin Nash resists torture and reveals nothing. His reward? Killed
>off-handedly.
Well, yeah, but think of it this way: he was dead meat already. If he had
buckled, it's possible Blonde wouldn't have died (it took some pretty
serious nastiness on Blondie's part for Orange to tap him)--and there
would have been a big gunfight between the cops and the gangsters when
Joe arrived, possibly resulting in more carnage. It's a pretty long and
distant link, but it's still there.
>- White stands up for Orange because he believes in the man's integrity.
>He is shot for his troubles.
>
>- Orange reveals to White that he's a cop. He's shot in the head.
I'll concede these two.
>I think the whole point of Tarantino's movies is that you're *not*
>rewarded for being honourable, nor are you punished for being dishonourable.
>Shit just happens.
I'd agree that shit just happens in QT's films, but I still think honour,
in various forms, is a major theme in his work. And, of course, one could
argue that honour is its own reward, when the alternative is _total_
moral bankruptcy.
--
* Chris Pierson Grad J-School Class of '95 (with any luck)*
* Defanged destroyer limps into the bay/Down at the beach/it's attracting *
* quite a crowd/As kids wade through the blood/out to it to play *
* --The Tragically Hip, "Scared" *
Jason Forrest
: Why do people always say that Tarantino characters follow a certain moral
: code and are rewarded for being honourable? This just isn't true.
: - Butch goes back to save Marsellus, but he gains nothing, because Zed and
: Maynard would have killed Marsellus anyway.
Well that would have given Marsellus' boys all that much more reason to
go after Butch. Marsellus had a powerful enough organization that it
wouldn't have just fallen apart after his death. Whoever succeeded him
would have hunted Butch all that much harder. It worked out for Butch the
best because Marsellus let him live, as long as he left LA, for saving
his life.
: - Marvin Nash resists torture and reveals nothing. His reward? Killed
: off-handedly.
Ha Ha. Well for one thing, it's possible Marvin didn't know anything
about the setup. He was in uniform and was part of the wave responding to
the alarm, not part of the setup. But let's say he did know about it. Do
you think he could have said: "That guy there is a undercover cop."
(Pointing at Freddie) and the dogs would have said: "Great, thanks a lot.
Well, we'll untie you now and you can go." The only way for Marvin to
stay alive is to keep his mouth shut and wait for the Cavalry comin' over
the hill. Saying anything would have guaranteed his death.
: - White stands up for Orange because he believes in the man's integrity.
: He is shot for his troubles.
I don't know if that's the same as being honourable. Sure, he stood up
for what he believed in, but it was more self-serving then honourable
don't you think?
: - Orange reveals to White that he's a cop. He's shot in the head.
Orange knew he was going to die anyways, being shot _again_, this time
by Joe. Before he died, he did the honourable thing by admiting he was a
cop to Larry. The shot in the head was probably best for him anyways. He
was certainly going to die without it.
: I think the whole point of Tarantino's movies is that you're *not*
:rewarded for being honourable,nor are you punished for being dishonourable.
: Shit just happens.
I think the theme is still there, I'm just not crazy about your
examples. Not every single character applies to this theme, but when tied
into the redemption theme and applied to the proper characters, it works
and it's completely consistant.
Cheers,
Jay
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail:aa...@cfn.cs.dal.ca "You don't make up for your sins in
Halifax, Nova Scotia church - you do it in the streets."
Canada Charlie - _Mean Streets_
______________________________________________________________________________
Third Man
: Why do people always say that Tarantino characters follow a certain moral
: code and are rewarded for being honourable? This just isn't true.
: - Butch goes back to save Marsellus, but he gains nothing, because Zed and
: Maynard would have killed Marsellus anyway.
Had he not saved marsellus, Marcellus' men would STILL be looking for
him. Remember Marsellus' command about tracking Butch to the ends of the
world? But since Butch saved Marcellus, and Marcellus "forgave" Butch,
Butch doesn't have to worry about anyone coming after him.
: - Marvin Nash resists torture and reveals nothing. His reward? Killed
: off-handedly.
: - White stands up for Orange because he believes in the man's integrity.
: He is shot for his troubles.
White behaves honorably, and when hex´,discovers it turns out that he has
been lied to,
UþÅ`0¿F³SáÉ
lß)ì.&°dQÞr TûEðñ$Xå,HeÆÙÂßÓ¡ÉK¦_«ú
: - Orange reveals to White that he's a cop. He's shot in the head.
Skander Halim
In a previous article, aa...@cfn.cs.dal.ca (Jason Forrest) says:
>Skander Halim (ba...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>
>: Why do people always say that Tarantino characters follow a certain moral
>: code and are rewarded for being honourable? This just isn't true.
>
>: - Butch goes back to save Marsellus, but he gains nothing, because Zed and
>: Maynard would have killed Marsellus anyway.
>
> Well that would have given Marsellus' boys all that much more reason to
>go after Butch. Marsellus had a powerful enough organization that it
>wouldn't have just fallen apart after his death. Whoever succeeded him
>would have hunted Butch all that much harder. It worked out for Butch the
>best because Marsellus let him live, as long as he left LA, for saving
>his life.
I guess it would depend on how faithful Marsellus' boys were. It might
not be the new guy's top priority to avenge Marsellus' death. And even if
it was, he'd go after Zed and Maynard first.
>: - Marvin Nash resists torture and reveals nothing. His reward? Killed
>: off-handedly.
>
> Ha Ha.
Huh? What's funny?
>Well for one thing, it's possible Marvin didn't know anything
>about the setup. He was in uniform and was part of the wave responding to
>the alarm, not part of the setup.
If Marvin knew Orange was a cop, I think it's safe to say he also know
about the setup.
>But let's say he did know about it. Do
>you think he could have said: "That guy there is a undercover cop."
>(Pointing at Freddie) and the dogs would have said: "Great, thanks a lot.
>Well, we'll untie you now and you can go." The only way for Marvin to
>stay alive is to keep his mouth shut and wait for the Cavalry comin' over
>the hill. Saying anything would have guaranteed his death.
Well, people don't think that logically when their ear is being removed.
If Marvin was a coward, he would have spilled his guts in the very faint
hope of being spared some pain. He wasn't a coward. On the contrary, he
was incredibly courageous, but his courage gained him nothing and didn't
save any lives.
>: - White stands up for Orange because he believes in the man's integrity.
>: He is shot for his troubles.
>
> I don't know if that's the same as being honourable. Sure, he stood up
>for what he believed in, but it was more self-serving then honourable
>don't you think?
Self-serving? How do you figure?
>: - Orange reveals to White that he's a cop. He's shot in the head.
>
>
> Orange knew he was going to die anyways, being shot _again_, this time
>by Joe. Before he died, he did the honourable thing by admiting he was a
>cop to Larry. The shot in the head was probably best for him anyways. He
>was certainly going to die without it.
I don't think that's a certainty. He was shot what, twice? People have
survived worse. The question of whether or not Orange knew he was going
to die is an interesting one. I'm surprised it's not discussed more. If
he knew he was dead meat anyway, that decreases the impact of his final
"sacrifice" considerably.
>: I think the whole point of Tarantino's
movies is that you're *not*
>:rewarded for being honourable,nor are you punished for being dishonourable.
>: Shit just happens.
>
>
> I think the theme is still there, I'm just not crazy about your
>examples. Not every single character applies to this theme, but when tied
>into the redemption theme and applied to the proper characters, it works
>and it's completely consistant.
I'm not convinced. QT's into nihilism and anarchy. The only real
reference to a moral code was when Butch chose the Samurai sword to attack
Zed and Maynard - and that was so howlingly obvious, it must have been
tongue-in-cheek.
flixman
resort to compu$erve...so I'll make it brief:
the code of "death before dishonor" is percieved by some as having
its own rewards.
--
"I stand apart from the left, because I am aware that the police
state follows close on the heels of the welfrae state; but I am also
far from the right, as I recognize society's collective obligation
toward the disadvantaged."
Andy Lester
: not be the new guy's top priority to avenge Marsellus' death. And even if
: it was, he'd go after Zed and Maynard first.
There's no way Marsellus' crew would have known about his death. Zed and
Maynard would simply have disposed of the body somehow and no one would have
been the wiser.
: If Marvin knew Orange was a cop, I think it's safe to say he also know
: about the setup.
He DID know Orange was a cop. Unless my recollection of seeing it 3 months
ago is wrong, when Orange tells Marvin he's a cop, Marvin says "I know."
If anything, that points at Marvin's honor all the more. He KNEW that
Orange was a cop, and could well have saved him from the torture, but still
said nothing.
Andy
--
----
Andy Lester, Palatine, IL ale...@farpost.chi.il.us -or- ale...@mcs.com
http://www.mcs.net/~alester/home.html
I maintain the Chicago Area Shows List. Mail me for a copy, or WWW it.
Christopher Edward Hilker
>: I guess it would depend on how faithful Marsellus' boys were. It might
>: not be the new guy's top priority to avenge Marsellus' death. And even if
>: it was, he'd go after Zed and Maynard first.
>There's no way Marsellus' crew would have known about his death. Zed and
>Maynard would simply have disposed of the body somehow and no one would have
>been the wiser.
Nonsense. LA's top crime boss disappears, and the last time anyone's seen
him he's chasing after a guy who just cheated him out of a few hundred
grand, killed one of his hit men, and hit him with a car, and people
aren't going to figure something's up?
>: If Marvin knew Orange was a cop, I think it's safe to say he also know
>: about the setup.
>He DID know Orange was a cop. Unless my recollection of seeing it 3 months
>ago is wrong, when Orange tells Marvin he's a cop, Marvin says "I know."
I hear this as Marvin trying to sound reassuring and comforting. I don't
believe he really knew.
C.
--
cs...@am.ucsc.edu (Chris.Hilker)...a good-foot dance in a dusted trance
The alt.rave mini-FAQ: "Q: ?" "A: hyperreal.com (http://hyperreal.com)"
Brian B. King
> >He DID know Orange was a cop. Unless my recollection of seeing it 3 months
> >ago is wrong, when Orange tells Marvin he's a cop, Marvin says "I know."
>
> I hear this as Marvin trying to sound reassuring and comforting. I don't
> believe he really knew.
Why do you think that Marvin was trying to be reassuring?
Later, Marvin's going on about how he's had such a bad day (This guy...cuts my
fuckin' ear off! I'm fuckin' deformed!) Orange obviously finds this less than
comforting ("Fuck you! FUCK YOU!")
(I just love that little dialogue there)
Marvin's too worried about his own ass to care what Orange might be going
through, doncha think?
Or am I missing something? Please Explain...
==============================================================================
Brian B. King ...she'll make you toast/but she don't use
bbk5...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu butter/and she don't use cheese/she don't
use jelly, or any of these, she uses
Vaseline.
-The Flaming Lips
j.a. slator
Christopher Edward Hilker <cs...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>In <39jlb9$i...@Mars.mcs.com> ale...@MCS.COM (Andy Lester) writes:
>
>
>I hear this as Marvin trying to sound reassuring and comforting. I don't
>believe he really knew.
Not only did Marvin know Orange was a cop, but he knew that Orange's
real name was "Freddy something" because Frankie Frechetti had introduced
them 5 months earlier.
Andrew Johnston
> On 7 Nov 1994, Christopher Edward Hilker wrote:
> > >He DID know Orange was a cop. Unless my recollection of seeing it 3 months
> > >ago is wrong, when Orange tells Marvin he's a cop, Marvin says "I know."
> >
> > I hear this as Marvin trying to sound reassuring and comforting. I don't
> > believe he really knew.
>
> Why do you think that Marvin was trying to be reassuring?
>
> Later, Marvin's going on about how he's had such a bad day (This guy...cuts my
> fuckin' ear off! I'm fuckin' deformed!) Orange obviously finds this less than
> comforting ("Fuck you! FUCK YOU!")
> (I just love that little dialogue there)
>
> Marvin's too worried about his own ass to care what Orange might be going
> through, doncha think?
I'm pretty sure Marvin doesn't even notice Orange until after Orange plugs Blond. Up to that point, Orange is just lying there and bleeding. And even then, the fact that he recognizes Orange from when they were introduced months ago leads me to believe that he knew nothing about the setup.
--
"Everyone in the world would love to get paid to do something
they love...cowboy, fireman, porn star, guitar player, etc."
--Gerard Cosloy
Jason Forrest
: I guess it would depend on how faithful Marsellus' boys were. It might
: not be the new guy's top priority to avenge Marsellus' death. And even if
: it was, he'd go after Zed and Maynard first.
I sort of got the impression they've done this before. That leads me to
believe that Z&M would have hid the body, or dumped it on the street
somewhere. Either way, Butch would have got the blame not Z&M. Marsellus
is a millionare crime-lord. His death _would_ be avenged, of this I have
no doubt.
: Well, people don't think that logically when their ear is being removed.
: If Marvin was a coward, he would have spilled his guts in the very faint
: hope of being spared some pain. He wasn't a coward. On the contrary, he
: was incredibly courageous, but his courage gained him nothing and didn't
: save any lives.
Marvin didn't know Orange was a cop until after Orange shot Blonde, he
didn't have time to look and see who this half-dead guy passed out was.
Plus, you're getting into some psychology about the way Marvin would
think in this situation that I just don't buy. He's a professional cop,
he knows opening his mouth about Freddie (if he did recognize him-which
he didn't) would get them both quickly killed, missing an ear or not.
Also, it certainly wouldn't be common knowledge for Marvin to know about
the setup, Police departments don't let everyone know about undercover
operations, for that very reason, among others.
: I don't think that's a certainty. He was shot what, twice? People have
: survived worse. The question of whether or not Orange knew he was going
: to die is an interesting one. I'm surprised it's not discussed more. If
: he knew he was dead meat anyway, that decreases the impact of his final
: "sacrifice" considerably.
OK, he was shot in the midsection. He was dragged to a warehouse where
he passed out from a lack of blood (he was covered in blood, I don't
think he was just tired). It took the screams of Nash to bring him out of
it again. Then he sits in his pool of blood for a while longer until he
is shot in the midsection again. Point blank both times. I believe he was
dead. If he thought he was going to live, why do _you_ think he told
Larry he was a cop? Larry was the one who may have lived from his wound,
so it's not as if Freddie was telling Larry this before he (Larry) died.
Freddie was telling Larry this before he (Freddie) died.
: I'm not convinced. QT's into nihilism and anarchy. The only real
: reference to a moral code was when Butch chose the Samurai sword to attack
: Zed and Maynard - and that was so howlingly obvious, it must have been
: tongue-in-cheek.
One of QT's most admired movies is _Taxi Driver_. That should help
convince you he takes the theme of honour and morality rather seriously.
Cheers,
Jay
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Forrest "If they hadn't of done, what I
aa...@cfn.cs.dal.ca told them not to do, they'd
Halifax, Nova Scotia still be alive."
Canada -Mr.Blonde Reservoir Dogs
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Maimon
|>
|> I'm pretty sure Marvin doesn't even notice Orange until after Orange
plugs Blond. Up to that point, Orange is just lying there and bleeding.
that's definitely not the impression you were supposed to get.
You were supposed to think that he protected Orange out of loyalty and
put up with the torture so that orange won't get killed. I won't argue
about what is "real" or not, since it's just a movie, but think about
it, the whole power of the lines
"I'm a cop" (huge surprise from audience)
"I know" (doubly huge surprise)
comes from the fact that Marvin kept his mouth shut throughout the torture.
--
Ron Maimon
! You're a star bellied sneetch, you suck like a leech
Jello ! you want everyone to act like you
Biafra ! kiss ass while you bitch so you can get rich
! but your boss gets richer off you
Third Man
: Why do people always say that Tarantino characters follow a certain moral
: code and are rewarded for being honourable? This just isn't true.
: - Butch goes back to save Marsellus, but he gains nothing, because Zed and
: Maynard would have killed Marsellus anyway.
And Marsellus' men would STILL be hunting for Butch. It is an incredibly
honorable thing to save your enemy, and Butch was rewarded for his
actions: he is allowed to live in peace.
: - Marvin Nash resists torture and reveals nothing. His reward? Killed
: off-handedly.
: - White stands up for Orange because he believes in the man's integrity.
: He is shot for his troubles.
: - Orange reveals to White that he's a cop. He's shot in the head.
Orange is killed because he BROKE the code of honor (at least among
the thieves).
jstem...@pomona.edu
> In <39jlb9$i...@Mars.mcs.com> ale...@MCS.COM (Andy Lester) writes:
>>He DID know Orange was a cop. Unless my recollection of seeing it 3 months
>>ago is wrong, when Orange tells Marvin he's a cop, Marvin says "I know."
> I hear this as Marvin trying to sound reassuring and comforting. I don't
> believe he really knew.
Sorry if some one has already pointed this out, but Marvin tells Orange that a
mutual friend had introduced them 6 (?) months before and Orange says he can't
even remember back that far. Marvin knows Orange's name, or begins to recall
it before Orange even gets to his name. I'm not certain what this implies
about Marvin's knowledge of the setup. Off hand, I see a few possibilities:
1) he knows that Orange is their undercover man but has forgotten the name due
to shock. (How well would you be doing if your ear and been chopped off?)
2) he hadn't connected the name of the undercover cop that he had been briefed
on to the person he had met 6 months before, and again, has trouble thinking in
shock.
3) he was not briefed as to the name of the undercover cop, but knew there was
an undercover man, and managed to put the pieces together.
4) he didn't know about the undercover man but was able to make the connection.
I doubt 1, 2 or 4, because the cops would have known that this would possibly
endager the life of Orange. If they didn't know about an undercover man, they
might shoot at him like anyone else. If his name was known and one of the
regular cops was caught and questioned, as Marvin was, their insider would be
dead. Also in support of the limited briefing theory, Marvin doesn't know that
Orange's job is to wait until he can nab Joe, and he has to be told he has to
wait.
BTW, if its in debate as to whether the cops were responding to the alarm or
were already there, this confuses the issue. The cops could have just been
responding to the alarm, which would mean that it was simply a freak accident
that Marvin knew Orange. I wonder if they were waiting for the six at all,
since that would have meant that Orange would have had a harder time bringing
Joe down.
Damn. Now I'm confused.
But Marvin *did* know Orange.
j.p.
Skander Halim
In a previous article, aa...@cfn.cs.dal.ca (Jason Forrest) says:
>Skander Halim (ba...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
> Marvin didn't know Orange was a cop until after Orange shot Blonde
You seem so certain of this, but I really don't agree. As someone else
mentioned, if Marvin didn't know anything, it really takes something away
from the movie. The "double-whammy" effect of Orange revealing his
identity and Marvin saying he knew all along is completely ruined. If you
were watching this scene and thinking, "Marvin's just lying," you were missing
out on one of the most powerful moments in RD.
>Police departments don't let everyone know about undercover operations,
I would think everyone in the ambush would be in on it, so they wouldn't
shoot at Freddie.
>: The question of whether or not Orange knew he was going
>: to die is an interesting one. I'm surprised it's not discussed more. If
>: he knew he was dead meat anyway, that decreases the impact of his final
>: "sacrifice" considerably.
> OK, he was shot in the midsection. He was dragged to a warehouse where
>he passed out from a lack of blood (he was covered in blood, I don't
>think he was just tired). It took the screams of Nash to bring him out of
>it again. Then he sits in his pool of blood for a while longer until he
>is shot in the midsection again. Point blank both times. I believe he was
>dead. If he thought he was going to live, why do _you_ think he told
>Larry he was a cop?
From the FAQ [which I know you've read, since you helped assemble it]:
"This is thought to stem from Tarantino's love of Hong Kong action movies
where honour and respect are an integral part. Mr. White had saved his
life, told him his real name, and killed two friends (Joe and Eddie) to
protect him. The only thing that Mr. Orange could offer in return was the
truth and this is why he told Mr. White that he was the undercover cop."
I'm not saying for sure that Orange thought he was going to live. I'm
just saying it's a possibility. And it changes things so much: if Orange
thinks he still may live, he's sacrificing himself in the name of truth
and honour. The viewer can ponder this final act (would I have done the
same?).
On the other hand, if Orange knows he's a dead man, the ending's a little
less profound. Orange is more selfish - he just tells the truth so he can
die with a clear conscience. I think anyone would have done the same.
> One of QT's most admired movies is _Taxi Driver_. That should help
>convince you he takes the theme of honour and morality rather seriously.
Just because he admires it, doesn't mean he adopts its themes into his own
movies. Besides, Taxi Driver's implied morality wasn't exactly crystal
clear either. Was Bickle's killing rampage honourable? Scorsese/Schrader
didn't really provide us with a definite answer.
Jason Forrest
: You seem so certain of this, but I really don't agree. As someone else
: mentioned, if Marvin didn't know anything, it really takes something away
: from the movie. The "double-whammy" effect of Orange revealing his
: identity and Marvin saying he knew all along is completely ruined. If you
:were watching this scene and thinking,"Marvin's just lying,"you were missing
: out on one of the most powerful moments in RD.
Whoa, for one thing I'm not certain (although I can give that
impression sometimes). The reason we discuss these things is to try and
come to a consensus among us. Secondly Marvin never said he knew "all
along" that Orange was a cop, he said he knew he was a cop after Orange
shot Blonde. There's a difference. When I watch that scene, I don't think
Marvin was lying, I think he realizes Orange is a cop after he shoots
Blonde, I mean he surely could figure it out that that's why he shot
Blonde and when he looks at him, he realizes he's met him once before. I
don't think I'm missing out on 'one of the most powerful moments in RD."
but to each his own.
: I would think everyone in the ambush would be in on it, so they wouldn't
: shoot at Freddie.
Yes, but how do you know Marvin was in on the ambush? Remember there was
two waves of cops that showed up. The ones staking out the diamond
wholesalers and the ones responding to the alarm. I believe Marvin was in
the latter. Remember, Brown and Blue were killed by cops and Pink could
have been. This leads me to believe the ones responding to the alarm knew
nothing about this.
: From the FAQ [which I know you've read, since you helped assemble it]:
: "This is thought to stem from Tarantino's love of Hong Kong action movies
: where honour and respect are an integral part. Mr. White had saved his
: life, told him his real name, and killed two friends (Joe and Eddie) to
: protect him. The only thing that Mr. Orange could offer in return was the
: truth and this is why he told Mr. White that he was the undercover cop."
: I'm not saying for sure that Orange thought he was going to live. I'm
: just saying it's a possibility. And it changes things so much: if Orange
: thinks he still may live, he's sacrificing himself in the name of truth
: and honour. The viewer can ponder this final act (would I have done the
: same?).
: On the other hand, if Orange knows he's a dead man, the ending's a little
: less profound. Orange is more selfish - he just tells the truth so he can
: die with a clear conscience. I think anyone would have done the same.
I certainly agree there's a difference. Unfortunately, I also feel that
Orange was going to die and this was the last thing he wanted to do
before he died, not because he was selfish, but because he felt so bad
and guilty about how things turned out. This is why he kept telling Larry
he was sorry (about lying to him). Also, if you subscribe to the theory
that Orange went through a transition during the movie from cop to dog
(this has been discussed times before), Orange couldn't have not told
Larry. Larry taking the bullet for him was the final moral incident that
made Freddie the cop adopt the dogs code. Even if Freddie was to live,
there would be no way he could ever go back to police work after that day
especially because of his ties with Larry, who as a cop, he should despise.
BTW, Simon + I don't necessarily agree on everything under the son,
people rarely do.
: > One of QT's most admired movies is _Taxi Driver_. That should help
: >convince you he takes the theme of honour and morality rather seriously.
: Just because he admires it, doesn't mean he adopts its themes into his own
: movies.
True. But that's the arguement you just tried to use against me in the FAQ.
: Besides, Taxi Driver's implied morality wasn't exactly crystal
: clear either. Was Bickle's killing rampage honourable? Scorsese/Schrader
: didn't really provide us with a definite answer.
Everything else we've discussed is more-or-less opinion. This is fact.
Scorsese and Schrader had very definate opinions and answers about this,
I'm surprised you haven't seen them. This isn't the Scorsese group (I
don't get it here B'(, but if you want to E-mail me, I'll tell you what
Scorsese says in his autobiography _Scorsese on Scorsese_ about Travis
Bickle and his and Paul's thoughts while writing/directing this character.
Cheers,
Jay
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Jason Forrest "You're in a hell. You're in a hell
E-mail: aa...@cfn.cs.dal.ca and you're going to die in the
In beautiful Halifax, hell just like the rest of them."
Nova Scotia, Canada Travis- _Taxi Driver_
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Skander Halim
In a previous article, aa...@cfn.cs.dal.ca (Jason Forrest) says:
>Skander Halim (ba...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>
>: You seem so certain of this, but I really don't agree. As someone else
>: mentioned, if Marvin didn't know anything, it really takes something away
>: from the movie. The "double-whammy" effect of Orange revealing his
>: identity and Marvin saying he knew all along is completely ruined. If you
>:were watching this scene and thinking,"Marvin's just lying,"you were missing
>: out on one of the most powerful moments in RD.
>
> Whoa, for one thing I'm not certain (although I can give that
>impression sometimes). The reason we discuss these things is to try and
>come to a consensus among us. Secondly Marvin never said he knew "all
>along" that Orange was a cop, he said he knew he was a cop after Orange
>shot Blonde. There's a difference. When I watch that scene, I don't think
>Marvin was lying, I think he realizes Orange is a cop after he shoots
>Blonde, I mean he surely could figure it out that that's why he shot
>Blonde and when he looks at him, he realizes he's met him once before. I
>don't think I'm missing out on 'one of the most powerful moments in RD."
>but to each his own.
I'm not sure of this, but after Marvin says, "I know," doesn't Orange say,
"You knew?" - a rhetorical-type question that implies, "You knew all along?"
>: I would think everyone in the ambush would be in on it, so they wouldn't
>: shoot at Freddie.
>
> Yes, but how do you know Marvin was in on the ambush? Remember there was
>two waves of cops that showed up. The ones staking out the diamond
>wholesalers and the ones responding to the alarm. I believe Marvin was in
>the latter. Remember, Brown and Blue were killed by cops and Pink could
>have been. This leads me to believe the ones responding to the alarm knew
>nothing about this.
Ah yes, the second wave, I forgot about them. You're right: they probably
knew nothing about the set-up. So Freddie really was taking quite the risk.
Man, he must have rocks in his head the size of Gibraltar.
But I think Marvin was part of the first bunch of cops. I got the
impression that the second wave arrived just as the dogs were leaving the
scene. It makes more sense for Blonde to have nabbed a hostage from the first
wave.
>: From the FAQ [which I know you've read, since you helped assemble it]:
>
>: "This is thought to stem from Tarantino's love of Hong Kong action movies
>: where honour and respect are an integral part. Mr. White had saved his
>: life, told him his real name, and killed two friends (Joe and Eddie) to
>: protect him. The only thing that Mr. Orange could offer in return was the
>: truth and this is why he told Mr. White that he was the undercover cop."
>
>: I'm not saying for sure that Orange thought he was going to live. I'm
>: just saying it's a possibility. And it changes things so much: if Orange
>: thinks he still may live, he's sacrificing himself in the name of truth
>: and honour. The viewer can ponder this final act (would I have done the
>: same?).
>
>: On the other hand, if Orange knows he's a dead man, the ending's a little
>: less profound. Orange is more selfish - he just tells the truth so he can
>: die with a clear conscience. I think anyone would have done the same.
>
>
> I certainly agree there's a difference. Unfortunately, I also feel that
>Orange was going to die and this was the last thing he wanted to do
>before he died, not because he was selfish, but because he felt so bad
>and guilty about how things turned out. This is why he kept telling Larry
>he was sorry (about lying to him). Also, if you subscribe to the theory
>that Orange went through a transition during the movie from cop to dog
>(this has been discussed times before), Orange couldn't have not told
>Larry. Larry taking the bullet for him was the final moral incident that
>made Freddie the cop adopt the dogs code. Even if Freddie was to live,
>there would be no way he could ever go back to police work after that day
>especially because of his ties with Larry, who as a cop, he should despise.
Interesting points on Orange's transition from cop to dog. The more I
think about it, the more it makes sense. Too bad I missed that
discussion. But it doesn't prove that Orange knew he was going to die.
> BTW, Simon + I don't necessarily agree on everything under the son,
>people rarely do.
No, I didn't mean to imply that. It's just that the FAQ excerpt answers
your question (Why would Orange reveal his identity if he thought he was
going to live?) so directly. Since I knew you'd read the FAQ, I wondered
why you asked the question.
an...@hulaw1.harvard.edu
>>: If Marvin knew Orange was a cop, I think it's safe to say he also know
>>: about the setup.
>>He DID know Orange was a cop. Unless my recollection of seeing it 3 months
>>ago is wrong, when Orange tells Marvin he's a cop, Marvin says "I know."
> I hear this as Marvin trying to sound reassuring and comforting. I don't
> believe he really knew.
No, Nash knew Orange. He said that "Frankie Frusciette [I don't remember the
name exactly] introduced us..." Then Orange says something like "Man -- I don't
remember that at all," and Marvin says "I do!"
--
Michael Angus
<an...@hulaw1.harvard.edu>
Jason Forrest
: I'm not sure of this, but after Marvin says, "I know," doesn't Orange say,
: "You knew?" - a rhetorical-type question that implies, "You knew all along?"
No, Orange never says that.
: Ah yes, the second wave, I forgot about them. You're right: they probably
: knew nothing about the set-up. So Freddie really was taking quite the risk.
: Man, he must have rocks in his head the size of Gibraltar.
That wouldn't be scarcastic would it? I thought we all agreed Freddie
_does_ have rocks in his head. Anyways, the robbery would have been
sucessful is Blonde didn't start shooting people, and Orange would have
been safe. (Although he was taking some kind of risk, I think that's in
the job description for big-city cops)
: But I think Marvin was part of the first bunch of cops. I got the
: impression that the second wave arrived just as the dogs were leaving the
:scene. It makes more sense for Blonde to have nabbed a hostage from the first
: wave.
I think he was in the second wave because: he was a rookie cop with 6
months on the force and he was in full uniform. If he was staking out the
place, I'm sure Freddie would have met him more then once, or at least
remembered his face, because they work in the same department
more-or-less. There was plenty of chances to take cops from the second
wave, White could have done it if he didn't blow them away, and we will
never really know what Blonde's situation exactly was.
: Interesting points on Orange's transition from cop to dog. The more I
: think about it, the more it makes sense. Too bad I missed that
: discussion. But it doesn't prove that Orange knew he was going to die.
No it doesn't prove it at all. I'm arguing from my somewhat limited
knowledge of medicine and what getting shot, almost bleeding to death,
and getting shot again can do to you.
: No, I didn't mean to imply that. It's just that the FAQ excerpt answers
: your question (Why would Orange reveal his identity if he thought he was
: going to live?) so directly. Since I knew you'd read the FAQ, I wondered
: why you asked the question.
Because, like I said, because it's in the FAQ doesn't make it
necessarily true. It's one of the very few things I'm not 100% on.
Cheers,
Jay
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Jason Forrest "Jules, if you give this fucken
E-mail:aa...@cfn.cs.dal.ca nimrod 1500 bucks, I'm gonna
Halifax, Nova Scotia shoot him on general principle."
Canada Vincent- Pulp Fiction
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Jason Forrest
: No, Nash knew Orange.He said that "Frankie Frusciette [I don't remember the
:name exactly] introduced us..."Then Orange says something like "Man I don't
: remember that at all," and Marvin says "I do!"
We all agree Nash knew Freddie. The question is: Did he know about the
setup before _or_ did he realize Freddie was there after Freddie shot
Blonde and Nash had a chance to look at this guy we all thought was
almost dead. Did Nash have the time or a reason to look at Freddie's face
before?
Cheers,
Jay
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Jason Forrest "Stanley, see this? This is this. This
E-Mail:aa...@cfn.cs.dal.ca ain't something else, _This is this_
In beautiful Halifax From now on, you're on your own."
Nova Scotia, Canada Michael- _The Deer Hunter_
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st92...@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
You were supposed to think that he protected Orange out of loyalty and
put up with the torture so that orange won't get killed. I won't argue
about what is "real" or not, since it's just a movie, but think about
it, the whole power of the lines
"I'm a cop" (huge surprise from audience)
"I know" (doubly huge surprise)
comes from the fact that Marvin kept his mouth shut throughout the torture.
This is exactly the point!
When I stage-managed the show, I was so aggravated that our Orange never
reacted when NGE shoots Marvin. I was the SM so I wasn't really supposed to
give notes, but I finally couldn't take it anymore and mentioned it to the
actor and director, both of whom admitted to completely overlooking this.
I told Orange that he would be dead now if Nash had opened his mouth. "He
saved your ass". When he added a reaction in, it made all the difference
and was a really nice moment in the show.
-Nydia