I was just watching episode 176 the other day- the one with the Three Lights musical rehearsals- and noticed that the director's name was Akane, while her Christian name was Sister Angela. And since there's Akane in Rumiko Takahashi's Ranma 1/2, and Sister Angela in her One Pound Gospel manga, could this all be some kind of Takahashi reference?
Arnold Kim Or is my RT fandom showing through and reading too much into it?
Arnold Kim wrote in message <8nbpst$d5...@bob.news.rcn.net>... >I was just watching episode 176 the other day- the one with the Three >Lights musical rehearsals- and noticed that the director's name was >Akane,
Yep... ^_^
>while her Christian name was Sister Angela. And since there's Akane in >Rumiko Takahashi's Ranma 1/2, and Sister Angela in her One Pound >Gospel manga, could this all be some kind of Takahashi reference?
Could be... There are sisters named "Akane" and "Kasumi" in _Rurouni Kenshin_, too (in the anime, they're seen in the OVA). Knowing Watsuki, I'd be willing to bet that IS an intentional reference.
>Arnold Kim >Or is my RT fandom showing through and reading too much into it?
No, I don't think so at all. ^_^
Catherine Johnson. -- Remove "ima" to reply "Say goodbye to your planet, Kakarot." -Vegita, _DragonBall Z_.
> Arnold Kim wrote in message <8nbpst$d5...@bob.news.rcn.net>...
> >I was just watching episode 176 the other day- the one with the Three > >Lights musical rehearsals- and noticed that the director's name was > >Akane,
> Yep... ^_^
> >while her Christian name was Sister Angela. And since there's Akane in > >Rumiko Takahashi's Ranma 1/2, and Sister Angela in her One Pound > >Gospel manga, could this all be some kind of Takahashi reference?
> Could be... > There are sisters named "Akane" and "Kasumi" in _Rurouni Kenshin_, too (in > the anime, they're seen in the OVA). Knowing Watsuki, I'd be willing to > bet that IS an intentional reference.
Hm? Explain, please.
But that's interesting. Neither are terribly common names in anime. Only two Akanes and one Kasumi that I know of.
> >Arnold Kim > >Or is my RT fandom showing through and reading too much into it?
> No, I don't think so at all. ^_^
<whew>
Anyway, I'm glad that I'm finally in the middle of Stars. This season's turned out to be so cool so far!:)
Arnold Kim who thought it was a _great_ moment when Haruka and Seiya met for the first time...
>> There are sisters named "Akane" and "Kasumi" in _Rurouni Kenshin_, too >> (in the anime, they're seen in the OVA). Knowing Watsuki, I'd be willing to >> bet that IS an intentional reference.
>Hm? Explain, please.
Watsuki has these little things about many of the characters at the end of the of his chapters in the RK manga, which I've read translations of. He talks about how he comes up with their personalities, physical appearance, etc. He freely admits to taking a lot of his character ideas from other sources as varied as history, anime and manga, and sources here in the US. For example: Saitou Hajime and Okita Souji are based on real people of the same name (and Soujiro was also based on Okita Souji. Confusing, ne?). Hiko's cloak is taken from the American comic Spawn. Fuji's character design is based on the Evas from NGE, and Kamatari's face is modeled after Shinji's mom, Yui. And so on. Knowing this, I wouldn't at all surprised if "Akane" and "Kasumi" was an reference to the Tendou sisters (but no "Nabiki". The other sister was named Sakura).
>But that's interesting. Neither are terribly common names in anime. Only >two Akanes and one Kasumi that I know of.
Actually, "Misty" from Pokemon is Kasumi in the original version. So there's two. ^_^ And who are the two Akanes?
>> >Arnold Kim >> >Or is my RT fandom showing through and reading too much into it?
>> No, I don't think so at all. ^_^
><whew>
^_^
>Anyway, I'm glad that I'm finally in the middle of Stars. This season's >turned out to be so cool so far!:)
Yeah. I actually like it better than S.
>Arnold Kim >who thought it was a _great_ moment when Haruka and Seiya met for the first >time...
Ah, yes... Nothing as sweet as hate at first sight, ne?
Catherine Johnson. -- Remove "ima" to reply "Say goodbye to your planet, Kakarot." -Vegita, _DragonBall Z_.
> Arnold Kim wrote in message <8nbpst$d5...@bob.news.rcn.net>...
> >I was just watching episode 176 the other day- the one with the Three > >Lights musical rehearsals- and noticed that the director's name was > >Akane,
> Yep... ^_^
> >while her Christian name was Sister Angela. And since there's Akane in > >Rumiko Takahashi's Ranma 1/2, and Sister Angela in her One Pound > >Gospel manga, could this all be some kind of Takahashi reference?
> Could be... > There are sisters named "Akane" and "Kasumi" in _Rurouni Kenshin_, too (in > the anime, they're seen in the OVA). Knowing Watsuki, I'd be willing to > bet that IS an intentional reference.
> >Arnold Kim > >Or is my RT fandom showing through and reading too much into it?
> No, I don't think so at all. ^_^
> Catherine Johnson. > -- > Remove "ima" to reply > "Say goodbye to your planet, Kakarot." > -Vegita, _DragonBall Z_.
> >> There are sisters named "Akane" and "Kasumi" in _Rurouni Kenshin_, too > >> (in the anime, they're seen in the OVA). Knowing Watsuki, I'd be > willing to > >> bet that IS an intentional reference.
> >Hm? Explain, please.
> Watsuki has these little things about many of the characters at the end of > the of his chapters in the RK manga, which I've read translations of. He > talks about how he comes up with their personalities, physical appearance, > etc. He freely admits to taking a lot of his character ideas from other > sources as varied as history, anime and manga, and sources here in the US. > For example: > Saitou Hajime and Okita Souji are based on real people of the same name > (and Soujiro was also based on Okita Souji. Confusing, ne?). > Hiko's cloak is taken from the American comic Spawn. > Fuji's character design is based on the Evas from NGE, and Kamatari's face > is modeled after Shinji's mom, Yui. > And so on. > Knowing this, I wouldn't at all surprised if "Akane" and "Kasumi" was an > reference to the Tendou sisters (but no "Nabiki". The other sister was > named Sakura).
Oh, okay. Now _that's_ one of the most common anime names I've ever seen. Either that, or Rei.
> >But that's interesting. Neither are terribly common names in anime. Only > >two Akanes and one Kasumi that I know of.
> Actually, "Misty" from Pokemon is Kasumi in the original version. So > there's two. ^_^
D'OH! Forgot about that!
> And who are the two Akanes?
Akane, Kyosuke's cousin in Kimagure Orange Road.
> >> >Arnold Kim > >> >Or is my RT fandom showing through and reading too much into it?
> >> No, I don't think so at all. ^_^
> ><whew>
> ^_^
> >Anyway, I'm glad that I'm finally in the middle of Stars. This season's > >turned out to be so cool so far!:)
> Yeah. I actually like it better than S.
I can certainly see why. I think I like it better, too.
> >Arnold Kim > >who thought it was a _great_ moment when Haruka and Seiya met for the > first > >time...
> Ah, yes... Nothing as sweet as hate at first sight, ne?
Yep. I loved the way they just grabbed their hands and...
> "Fish Eye no Miko" <fisheyenom...@imaliveline.com> wrote in message > news:spllv8tbr5j82@corp.supernews.com... > > Arnold Kim wrote in message <8nbpst$d5...@bob.news.rcn.net>...
> > >I was just watching episode 176 the other day- the one with the Three > > >Lights musical rehearsals- and noticed that the director's name was > > >Akane,
> > Yep... ^_^
> > >while her Christian name was Sister Angela. And since there's Akane in > > >Rumiko Takahashi's Ranma 1/2, and Sister Angela in her One Pound > > >Gospel manga, could this all be some kind of Takahashi reference?
> > Could be... > > There are sisters named "Akane" and "Kasumi" in _Rurouni Kenshin_, too (in > > the anime, they're seen in the OVA). Knowing Watsuki, I'd be willing to > > bet that IS an intentional reference.
> > >Arnold Kim > > >Or is my RT fandom showing through and reading too much into it?
> > No, I don't think so at all. ^_^
> > Catherine Johnson. > > -- > > Remove "ima" to reply > > "Say goodbye to your planet, Kakarot." > > -Vegita, _DragonBall Z_.
> Do you realize how common these names are???
I highly doubt that "Sister Angela" is a terribly common Japanese name. :P
Arnold Kim how many Japanese are Catholics, let alone nuns named Angela?
In article <splv0ho4r5j...@corp.supernews.com>, "Fish Eye no Miko" <fisheyenom...@imaliveline.com> wrote:
>Arnold Kim wrote in message <8neqr7$25...@bob.news.rcn.net>...
<snip>
>>But that's interesting. Neither are terribly common names in anime. Only >>two Akanes and one Kasumi that I know of.
>Actually, "Misty" from Pokemon is Kasumi in the original version. So >there's two. ^_^ >And who are the two Akanes?
In case you two forget, Sailor Lead Crow used the name "Akane". Makes sense if you think of "Lead" as sounding like "Red", which I'm sure you know it does in Japanese (somewhat).
> Fish Eye no Miko <fisheyenom...@imaliveline.com> wrote in message > news:splv0ho4r5j129@corp.supernews.com... > > Arnold Kim wrote in message <8neqr7$25...@bob.news.rcn.net>...
> > >But that's interesting. Neither are terribly common names in anime. > > >Only two Akanes and one Kasumi that I know of.
> > Actually, "Misty" from Pokemon is Kasumi in the original version. So > > there's two. ^_^
> D'OH! Forgot about that!
There's a Kasumi in Dead or Alive 2... ^_^
> > And who are the two Akanes?
> Akane, Kyosuke's cousin in Kimagure Orange Road.
There's also the lovely Akane from Mahou Tsukai Tai.
>I was just watching episode 176 the other day- the one with the Three Lights >musical rehearsals- and noticed that the director's name was Akane, while >her Christian name was Sister Angela. And since there's Akane in Rumiko >Takahashi's Ranma 1/2, and Sister Angela in her One Pound Gospel manga, >could this all be some kind of Takahashi reference?
Well, in "Jane Eyre" the play I am doing in theatre, there is a Mary and there is a Leah. My best friend (Mary) Paige and Leah go to a different school that I might transfer too.... ah, I'm just missing them too much!
In article <tJ/m5clNSu3B09...@trends.net>, tmpmi...@trends.net (Chris Schack) wrote:
> In case you two forget, Sailor Lead Crow used the name "Akane". Makes > sense if you think of "Lead" as sounding like "Red", which I'm sure you > know it does in Japanese (somewhat).
In fact, the name Akane means "madder." Madder is a southwest Asian perennial plant (Rubia tinctorum) having small yellow flowers, whorled leaves, and a red root. The term also refers to a red dye obtained from the roots of this plant. Also, madder is a color: a medium to strong red or reddish orange.
-- ================================================== Ian Andreas Miller -- Hotaru and Saturn lover. "Hametsu to tanjô no senshi, Sêrâ Satân." "The soldier of ruin and birth, Sailor Saturn" ICQ: 9968963 -- AIM: IanAMiller -- Hotaru is cute. ==================================================
On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 01:21:42 GMT, sailorsk...@my-deja.com wrote: >This is an F/Y/I to all fanfic readers and in particular, fans of Tim >Nolan, Greenbeans, and Jackie Chiang.
>The site fanfictioncentral.net has plagiarized one of their works, >admitted to it, and says, too bad, along with an assortment of >expletives.
>The site administrator who calls himself L'Phantom refuses to remove the >fic or at least remove the plagiarized sections, and insults the >authors.
Kouda Mariko (Hot...@Xhotaru.net) writes: > On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 01:21:42 GMT, sailorsk...@my-deja.com wrote: >>The site fanfictioncentral.net has plagiarized one of their works, >>admitted to it, and says, too bad, along with an assortment of >>expletives.
>>The site administrator who calls himself L'Phantom refuses to remove the >>fic or at least remove the plagiarized sections, and insults the >>authors.
>>He has threatened us over publishing his emails, but chooses to print >>them all at his web site. Go figure ;p > Ah...how sad. ...and?
You have read the details? Now, would you trust a fanfic site that feels it's perfectly alright to take someone else's work and modify it/plagiarize it without permission? Would you trust your own work with them? I don't.
What has happened is fanfictioncentral.net put their rep on the line, and is losing it because the site maintainers feel that it is within their rights to steal someone else's work and claim it as their own. This is wrong.
-- Scott Delahunt | "Call it woman's intution. My mother told me." cn...@freenet.carleton.ca | - Mr. Canoehead, The Frantics, http://www.ncf.ca/~cn236 | _Four on the Floor_
>You have read the details? Now, would you trust a fanfic site that feels >it's perfectly alright to take someone else's work and modify >it/plagiarize it without permission? Would you trust your own work with >them? I don't.
-- Uhmm...i did read the details.. aside from the fact multiple requests had been made for permission to use excerpts from the original work, and that the credit has been given to the authors of said work...so the 'plagiarism' is dubious at best, here... The author[s] of the 'original' fanfic stated this matter has been resolved "satisfactorily (albeit grudgingly)", and that "no ill will lingers regarding this matter."
>What has happened is fanfictioncentral.net put their rep on the line, and >is losing it because the site maintainers feel that it is within their >rights to steal someone else's work and claim it as their own. This is >wrong.
-- Would be, if it was the case....
Tolaris noting idly Roger isn't really /that/ 'net-savvy, if he thinks finding his ISP and the www provider, real name, address and the phone# is a difficult task.... =) -- just before he died, he said: DM:"When did you clean your gun the last time?" PC:"I thought they were self-cleaning... What do you mean, _click_?"
> On 28 Aug 2000 15:48:35 GMT, Scott Delahunt wrote..
<snip>
> >You have read the details? Now, would you trust a fanfic site that feels > >it's perfectly alright to take someone else's work and modify > >it/plagiarize it without permission? Would you trust your own work with > >them? I don't. > -- > Uhmm...i did read the details.. aside from the fact multiple > requests had been made for permission to use excerpts from > the original work, and that the credit has been given to the > authors of said work...so the 'plagiarism' is dubious at > best, here... The author[s] of the 'original' fanfic stated > this matter has been resolved "satisfactorily (albeit > grudgingly)", and that "no ill will lingers regarding this > matter."
yes.. i said that because i wanted this matter resolved quickly and with as little pain as possible. i dislike fighting.. very much so.. we all have more important things to do than to fill each other's email accounts with remarks that are hurtful to the other.. but sleeping dogs weren't allowed to lie and now it's snowballed into something that is more a matter of principle..
a point was also brought up that i hadn't considered at the time.. that being that not all browsers display color.. in that context.. no one would be able to see it..
> >What has happened is fanfictioncentral.net put their rep on the line, and > >is losing it because the site maintainers feel that it is within their > >rights to steal someone else's work and claim it as their own. This is > >wrong. > -- > Would be, if it was the case....
let the snowball run over who it will? < shrugs >
> Tolaris > noting idly Roger isn't really /that/ 'net-savvy, if he > thinks finding his ISP and the www provider, real name, > address and the phone# is a difficult task.... =)
>>Kouda Mariko (Hot...@Xhotaru.net) writes: >>> On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 01:21:42 GMT, sailorsk...@my-deja.com wrote: >>>>The site fanfictioncentral.net has plagiarized one of their works, >>>>admitted to it, and says, too bad, along with an assortment of >>>>expletives.
>>>>The site administrator who calls himself L'Phantom refuses to remove the >>>>fic or at least remove the plagiarized sections, and insults the >>>>authors.
>>>>He has threatened us over publishing his emails, but chooses to print >>>>them all at his web site. Go figure ;p >>> Ah...how sad. ...and?
>>You have read the details? Now, would you trust a fanfic site that feels >>it's perfectly alright to take someone else's work and modify >>it/plagiarize it without permission? Would you trust your own work with >>them? I don't.
>>What has happened is fanfictioncentral.net put their rep on the line, and >>is losing it because the site maintainers feel that it is within their >>rights to steal someone else's work and claim it as their own. This is >>wrong.
>I would agree if the work in question had actually been a fanfic, but it clearly >is not. It's a conglomeration of commonly available SM information, written >in the form of a set of guidelines for fanfic writers. The writing style may be >original, but the content definitely isn't. i.e. This is a FAQ, not a FIC.
>You can take credit for writing a reference work, but you can't claim >ownership of the information contained in it. All they're obligated to do >is footnote the source of the quoted material, and since it seems they've >gone back and done that, I don't see why it's been dragged in here.
Principals.
And a *looooot* of pissed off fans.
Here's the quote that ticks *me* off:
"No, but cutting and pasting and adding original work *does* mean that it is mine. It's called research. It's called quoting, with cited references. Your story did not make the slightest mention of the Inner Senshi. Ours does. Therefore, the story as posted is not yours."
And the thing is, you might not have read the *original* article. They've changed it. The original was 90% of the "Trio" and 10% FFC. *That's* the one that got everyone P.O.ed. 'Course *now* everyone looks at the page and goes, "What's the big deal?" >_<
<wonders if anyone has a copy of the original article...>
--"Oh...oh...Jupiter..." --John F. Martin --FurrySaint at hotmail dot com "But we're noooode!" -- Minako ("Snow Day" by Robyn, Duke of Amber) Arc Impulse! My Makoto/Ami page!: Down again... -_-; Whipping Boy of the Fanfic Revolution: http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/hauthor/
> This is an F/Y/I to all fanfic readers and in particular, fans of Tim > Nolan, Greenbeans, and Jackie Chiang.
> The site fanfictioncentral.net has plagiarized one of their works, > admitted to it, and says, too bad, along with an assortment of > expletives.
This is an interesting subject. I went to the site and read the posted e-mails and then wandered around the site to see what I could see. Having done some study on copyright law as well as assisting some laywers on copyright cases, the subject matter definately piqued my interest.
I have read the e-mails that were posted, the Guide posted at the fanfic site, and the original article that is linked to at the site.
Question: Is the Fanfic Guide posted at fanfictioncentral.net plagiarism? Well, if you had a lot of time and money and no life you might ATTEMPT to prosecute them. Problem is, odds are you wouldn't win. There are definately certain similarities that might be argued as "stolen", but even the worst defense lawyer has a really good shot at arguing it away. As of this date, there are no wholesale quotes to pin anything on them that I could see. And believe me, I was tying my best to find some. Not that I personally have anything against them. I've never heard of them before. I was acting like the prosecution, looking to build a case for my client. As far as I could see, there's only some formatting similarities that give it away and definately a common progression of ideas. They would simply argue that they were "inspired" by the original article and used it for reseach purposes. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing illegal, either.
What might be damming to them is the e-mails they posted. Surprisingly, they seem to admit to a number of wrongdoings. (Though by their own e-mail replies, they don't see it as wrong.) The problem here is that they have gone back and corrected what they did wrong in a short matter of time. That will look very good for them if a judge ever had to adjudicate the case.
The be all and end all of it is that there is no serious violation of copyright going on with fanfictioncentral.net with regards to the guideline. You may consider their conduct unprofessional or rude or whatever, and you and fellows may make a choice not to solicit their services, but they don't appear (to me, at least) to be guilty of copyright infringement with regards to the guidelines.
> The site fanfictioncentral.net has plagiarized one of their works, > admitted to it
Interestingly, if they really, REALLY wanted to be nasty, YOU might be looking at some trouble with regard to the above statement you made. That could be considered libel, defamation of character, or a couple of other fun things. <Grin> Just a word to the wise. In today's litegeous society, you almost have to watch every word you say and (more importantly) write.
And, of course, for my own protection: This should not be considered legal advice. You should consult a lawyer for advice concerning copyright law and any other legal matter.
Blah blah blah, etc etc etc. :)
Best,
Lighthope
Notice: Unsolicited ("junk", "spam") e-mail advertisements are not allowed at this address. Penalty $500.00 charge per incident
Tolaris (tola...@my-deja.com) writes: > On 28 Aug 2000 15:48:35 GMT, Scott Delahunt wrote.. >>You have read the details? Now, would you trust a fanfic site that feels >>it's perfectly alright to take someone else's work and modify >>it/plagiarize it without permission? Would you trust your own work with >>them? I don't. > Uhmm...i did read the details.. aside from the fact multiple > requests had been made for permission to use excerpts from > the original work, and that the credit has been given to the > authors of said work...so the 'plagiarism' is dubious at > best, here... The author[s] of the 'original' fanfic stated > this matter has been resolved "satisfactorily (albeit > grudgingly)", and that "no ill will lingers regarding this > matter."
Only one of the authors gave permission, and *after* the fact, and is currently unhappy with how Roger and "Orchyd" are behaving. The alleged fanfic is in fact non-fiction, and was incorporated wholesale into Roger's work without proper citing or credit until *after* he was contacted by the author.
It is nowhere near "satisfactory".
>>What has happened is fanfictioncentral.net put their rep on the line, and >>is losing it because the site maintainers feel that it is within their >>rights to steal someone else's work and claim it as their own. This is >>wrong. > Would be, if it was the case....
It is. Wholesale quoting without citing *is* plagiarism.
> Tolaris > noting idly Roger isn't really /that/ 'net-savvy, if he > thinks finding his ISP and the www provider, real name, > address and the phone# is a difficult task.... =)
Roger Armstrong, of Tennesee, according to a publically accessable database. ISP is almost as trivially found.
-- Scott Delahunt | "Call it woman's intution. My mother told me." cn...@freenet.carleton.ca | - Mr. Canoehead, The Frantics, http://www.ncf.ca/~cn236 | _Four on the Floor_
>Tolaris (tola...@my-deja.com) writes: >> On 28 Aug 2000 15:48:35 GMT, Scott Delahunt wrote.. >>>You have read the details? Now, would you trust a fanfic site that feels >>>it's perfectly alright to take someone else's work and modify >>>it/plagiarize it without permission? Would you trust your own work with >>>them? I don't. >> Uhmm...i did read the details.. aside from the fact multiple >> requests had been made for permission to use excerpts from >> the original work, and that the credit has been given to the >> authors of said work...so the 'plagiarism' is dubious at >> best, here... The author[s] of the 'original' fanfic stated >> this matter has been resolved "satisfactorily (albeit >> grudgingly)", and that "no ill will lingers regarding this >> matter."
>Only one of the authors gave permission, and *after* the fact, and is >currently unhappy with how Roger and "Orchyd" are behaving.
-- The other authors didn't exactly bother to participate, so i'd presume they didn't care /that/ much about what happens to their work.. Whatever their opinion was, though, i think that the requests to 'take down the whole fanfic because it's not yours, or else!' were _way_ out of the line -- wouldn't a demand to rephrase or remove the quoted parts be more rightful?..[after all, it's not like the idea that 'Michiru doesn't normally swear.' can be considered intellectual /property/ of any of the original authors...]
>The alleged >fanfic is in fact non-fiction, and was incorporated wholesale into Roger's >work without proper citing or credit until *after* he was contacted by the >author.
>It is nowhere near "satisfactory".
-- Hmm...from Tim Nolan's first email, it seems the original work _was_ credited before any kind of contact was made.. in any case, this is a moot point -- there's now a revised version of the 'guide' on the guy's site, apparently with all the quoted material removed, and with both credit to the original author as well as the link to the original work, given...
>>>What has happened is fanfictioncentral.net put their rep on the line, and >>>is losing it because the site maintainers feel that it is within their >>>rights to steal someone else's work and claim it as their own. This is >>>wrong. >> Would be, if it was the case....
>It is. Wholesale quoting without citing *is* plagiarism.
-- Plagiarism is presenting one's ideas as your own...and in this very situation, anyone who's interested was free to find and read the original "Guidelines for Writing Outer Senshi Fics" to see what exactly was pulled from it...
Again, this is sort of a special case, since the original work is really no fan_fiction_. It's a set of 'rules', and most of those rules are obvious to anyone who's seen enough of SM, be it the original or the dub. Thus, the demand to cite exactly which rules were 'taken' from the original guide makes about as much sense, as me writing "Guidelines for Writing Utena Fics: #1 Touga is a slut.[EoF]" and demanding everyone to cite, every time they express their belief that Touga is indeed a slut. One could argue that Roger is plagiarizing original authors' writing style...but since Tim Nolan states explicitly in his first email that 'they have no objection to him doing this', it's a moot point as well...
>> Tolaris >> noting idly Roger isn't really /that/ 'net-savvy, if he >> thinks finding his ISP and the www provider, real name, >> address and the phone# is a difficult task.... =)
>Roger Armstrong, of Tennesee, according to a publically accessable >database. ISP is almost as trivially found.
-- Tennesee?.. I thought that's FL....
Incidentally, this is sort of scary; i wonder how many 'SM webmasters' are aware of the fact, getting their own domain means announcing their name and whereabouts to the whole world?.. ^^;;
Tolaris idly noting imagi-9.com is still free...hmm....<sg>
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