The Lack of Edge in the Anime (Spoilers)
Jojo
> I was looking in the manga recently, and I saw that story where
> Chibiusa
> finds out there is a vampire in her class. In the anime, all that
> happens is the victims lose energy, but what really happens in the
> manga, is they get bitten. Also, it is far more serious in tone
> in the
> manga. That story really shows all that is wrong in the anime.
> They
> intentionally take all the "bite" out of it, leaving only the
> humor,
> thus making the extremes of the show, which are meant to horror and
> humor, and having only tamed horror and humor, which is a poor
> combination, at least storywise.
Actually, Sailor Moon is a fantasy, but the manga is able to throw in
some horror with it. The anime plays up the the fantasy and astrology
part instead.
The manga is edgier, but I do think that Kunihiko Ikuhara's skewed
visual style is more to my tastes.
Jojo
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Crimsonjacket
noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I was looking in the manga recently, and I saw that story where Chibiusa
> finds out there is a vampire in her class. In the anime, all that
> happens is the victims lose energy, but what really happens in the
> manga, is they get bitten. Also, it is far more serious in tone in the
> manga. That story really shows all that is wrong in the anime. They
> intentionally take all the "bite" out of it, leaving only the humor,
> thus making the extremes of the show, which are meant to horror and
> humor, and having only tamed horror and humor, which is a poor
> combination, at least storywise.
There's an anime version of the first "Chibi-usa's Picture Diary" act? I
thought the only acts in the manga that weren't part of the plot that became
part of the anime was Ami-chan First's Love and the S movie.
--
Chad Gayman/Crimsonjacket
-------------------------------------
Ace: So I burnt the house down.
Doctor: Any regrets?
Ace: Yes.
Doctor: Yes?
Ace: I wish I'd blown it up instead.
Doctor: Wicked.
-Doctor Who "Ghost Light"
-------------------------------------
noit...@hotmail.com
finds out there is a vampire in her class. In the anime, all that
happens is the victims lose energy, but what really happens in the
manga, is they get bitten. Also, it is far more serious in tone in the
manga. That story really shows all that is wrong in the anime. They
intentionally take all the "bite" out of it, leaving only the humor,
thus making the extremes of the show, which are meant to horror and
humor, and having only tamed horror and humor, which is a poor
combination, at least storywise.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
EdwChang
demographic for that particular anime is something like pre-teen girls, who
want nothing to do with the heavier elements of the manga. The FAQ tells a
little story how when the original ending to the first season aired, angry
parents called into the studios to complain how emotionally upset their
children had become.
Yes, the manga has the heavier elements, but in the world of TV, you have to
suck up to your audience, and leaving in the "bite" as you put it would
alienate much of the audience, leading to less viewers, which means less money,
which is bad for them.
Edward Chang
"Watashitte yappari tensai!" -- Skuld
MoonieCode(1.12.05) SM:6+ F:sVe++[+]Me++[+]:vGa+>:aAr+Ry+:pS*
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P:a18:s510:w135:f:eBrg:hBk:*Cp:y:r+|+
Michi-chan
>
> Think about the audience however. In Japan, (and over here as well), the
> demographic for that particular anime is something like pre-teen girls, who
> want nothing to do with the heavier elements of the manga. The FAQ tells a
> little story how when the original ending to the first season aired, angry
> parents called into the studios to complain how emotionally upset their
> children had become.
Have you actually seen a Nakayoshi? The anime and the manga are aimed
at the same audiences.
--
Michi-chan
The Realm of Shadow - http://members.home.net/ztsukino/
J-music - http://members.home.net/ztsukino/music/
SPEED, Carry On my way - last album, on sale 12.22.1999!
SPEED, Long Way Home - new Maxi Single, in stores now!
SPEED wa, eien da yo...
shinj...@my-deja.com
In reply to the question below, the story about the vampire in the class
is the third story in the Sailormoon SuperS T.V. Special that aired in
Japan in between Episodes 131 and 132. The special is separate from
the SuperS series and is not counted as one of the 200 Sailormoon
episodes. The special is available as a VKLL fansub-- it is part of
the Ami-chan no Hatsukoi tape. (Ami's First Love and SuperS T.V.
Specials).
Allen Karon
In article <385DA62E...@ix.netcom.com>,
Crimsonjacket <lga...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> There's an anime version of the first "Chibi-usa's Picture Diary"
act? I
> thought the only acts in the manga that weren't part of the plot that
became
> part of the anime was Ami-chan First's Love and the S movie.
>
(skipped)
RWWells
>thought the only acts in the manga that weren't part of the plot that became
>part of the anime was Ami-chan First's Love and the S movie.
Yup, part of the Super S TV special.
noit...@hotmail.com
edwc...@aol.comXSPAM (EdwChang) wrote:
> Think about the audience however. In Japan, (and over here as well),
the
> demographic for that particular anime is something like pre-teen
girls, who
> want nothing to do with the heavier elements of the manga. The FAQ
tells a
> little story how when the original ending to the first season aired,
angry
> parents called into the studios to complain how emotionally upset
their
> children had become.
>
have to
> suck up to your audience, and leaving in the "bite" as you put it
would
> alienate much of the audience, leading to less viewers, which means
less money,
> which is bad for them.
>
other posts have more then elaborated on this.
noit...@hotmail.com
> Think about the audience however. In Japan, (and over here as well),
the
> demographic for that particular anime is something like pre-teen
girls, who
> want nothing to do with the heavier elements of the manga. The FAQ
tells a
> little story how when the original ending to the first season aired,
angry
> parents called into the studios to complain how emotionally upset
their
> children had become.
>
all over Japan crying. It means that they struck a nerve. Did it harm
their popularity? No. Did it upset people in the process? Yes. Was
it worth it? I should think so.
noit...@hotmail.com
Jojo <macross3...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
> In article <83ju3n$v7j$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > I was looking in the manga recently, and I saw that story where
> > Chibiusa
> > finds out there is a vampire in her class. In the anime, all that
> > happens is the victims lose energy, but what really happens in the
> > manga, is they get bitten. Also, it is far more serious in tone
> > in the
> > manga. That story really shows all that is wrong in the anime.
> > They
> > intentionally take all the "bite" out of it, leaving only the
> > humor,
> > thus making the extremes of the show, which are meant to horror and
> > humor, and having only tamed horror and humor, which is a poor
> > combination, at least storywise.
>
> some horror with it. The anime plays up the the fantasy and astrology
> part instead.
>
Michi-chan
The manga did not come first in the same way most mangas come first.
The manga was planned at the same time as the anime. The manga just
happened to start earlier each year with Naoko adding her own touches to
it.
--
Michi-chan
'Long Long Night, yoake no hikari wo sagashite, kimi wo sagashite...'
Tolaris
>I was looking in the manga recently, and I saw that story where Chibiusa
>finds out there is a vampire in her class. [..]
>That story really shows all that is wrong in the anime. [..]
>having only tamed horror and humor, which is a poor
>combination, at least storywise.
--
You might want to back up this opinion of yours... as it is
now, it leaves me with impression the most important factor
in the story is, how scary it is..and i don't see any reason
why it'd be this way?..
Tolaris
who thought it's the interesting plot and characters that
make the story good...but apparently was wrong? :P
Andy00
>Tolaris
>who thought it's the interesting plot and characters that
>make the story good...but apparently was wrong? :P
I agree. While the manga sheds _some_ light on the plot that the anime does
not, there is a _lot_ more characterization done in the anime. Which is why I
prefer the anime, and to me, the manga is a supplement.
While I'll admit to a certain cynicism, I choose to live my life
in the company of Ghandi and King. I reject, absolutely,
revenge, aggression, and retaliation.
The foundation of such a method, is Love."
- Albert Rosenfield
C. Proffitt
The dentist episode of SuperS (#153?) was also based off one of the
Picture Diarys.
Joey and his Akane hammer
>> > I was looking in the manga recently, and I saw that story where
>> > Chibiusa
>> > happens is the victims lose energy, but what really happens in the
>> > manga, is they get bitten. Also, it is far more serious in tone
>> > in the
>> > manga. That story really shows all that is wrong in the anime.
>> > They
>> > intentionally take all the "bite" out of it, leaving only the
>> > humor,
>> > thus making the extremes of the show, which are meant to horror and
>> > combination, at least storywise.
>>
>> Actually, Sailor Moon is a fantasy, but the manga is able to throw in
>> some horror with it. The anime plays up the the fantasy and astrology
>> part instead.
>>
I don't really see much wrong with this. These add to alot of the reasons I
prefer the anime, simply because I don't think Takeuchi handles it too well(for
some reason, we never see what happens to the victims, it's poorly paced, and
we rarely get to see reasoning behind actions, and the like). Besides, it's
hard to take goofy looking monsters stealing energy seriously^^;;
>
>The manga came first. Why is everyone putting it side by side?
>
Actually, the manga was what, a month behind the anime, when it started, or
something? The two ran closely.
-Joey, who had an interesting pre-Christmas vacation day.
"And if you want to know his thoughts, read Playboy magazine!"-My choir teacher
parodies Frosty The Snowman, with Jessie The Body(our governor can beat up
yours). HEHEHEHE
noit...@hotmail.com
> >I was looking in the manga recently, and I saw that story where
Chibiusa
> >That story really shows all that is wrong in the anime. [..]
> >having only tamed horror and humor, which is a poor
> >combination, at least storywise.
> You might want to back up this opinion of yours... as it is
> now, it leaves me with impression the most important factor
> in the story is, how scary it is..and i don't see any reason
> why it'd be this way?..
True. Let me elaborate. The story, Chibiusa finding a Vampire in
class, was a simple story to begin with. The problem is that with tamer
vilains, it takes some of the tension out of the story, essential for
such a one, because without it, the story lacks excitement, which is
what exactly happened. Certain anime, I have found, is great at
bouncing between drama and comedy quickly. That is what makes them so
enjoyable. SM is one of them. It is the seriousness underpinning the
humor that makes it best. Without its framework, then the humor loses
its punch, and the story drags. The best story in SM was the third
season, which left a suspense over the viewer till the very end. It was
a truly beautiful story, well-balanced, and well-crafted.
> who thought it's the interesting plot and characters that
> make the story good...but apparently was wrong? :P
>
You should see thread I started last. It was about that very subject,
defining criteria for judging the anime and manga side by side.
Tolaris
wrote..
>The problem is that with tamer
>vilains, it takes some of the tension out of the story, essential for
>such a one, because without it, the story lacks excitement, which is
>what exactly happened.
--
This depends only on what you consider exciting, and as such
cannot be really used as UniversalTruth[TM]. i could as
well complain the story in the manga is also tame, because
it doesn't have the guts of victims splattered all over the
walls...
Out of curiosity..did you honestly _not_ enjoy this story,
even /before/ you saw its manga counterpart?..
>Certain anime, I have found, is great at
>bouncing between drama and comedy quickly. That is what makes them so
>enjoyable. SM is one of them.
--
Again, a matter of taste... unless very well done, i find
such changes somewhat surreal..and while i like surrealism,
i prefer it in limited doses -- otherwise it quickly loses
its effect and becomes plain tiresome...
>It is the seriousness underpinning the
>humor that makes it best. Without its framework, then the humor loses
>its punch, and the story drags.
--
Uhmm this may be [again..] your opinion, but it's simply not
true; humor is an independent plot device and doesn't need
seriousness to work well; numerous comedies can serve as a
proof here...
>The best story in SM was the third
>season, which left a suspense over the viewer till the very end. It was
>a truly beautiful story, well-balanced, and well-crafted.
--
Really? that's funny, i thought you'd prefer SuperS series..
as it comes closest to your ideal of the story -- horror
undertones running just skin deep under the seemingly goofy
plot and jokes..ick; >.<;; come to think of it, SuperS was
the only part of SM which managed to give me creeps...
I find S nice,[one of my favourites actually..] but only
because of the characters... there's no suspense in it at
all until few final eps..
>> who thought it's the interesting plot and characters that
>> make the story good...but apparently was wrong? :P
>>
>You should see thread I started last. It was about that very subject,
>defining criteria for judging the anime and manga side by side.
--
I did see it; since it's exactly like many threads before,
[and all of them can be closed with "everyone is a critic
and one's trash is another's treasure"..] i decided to not
participate...
Tolaris
idly noting he did after all; bummer... --;;
--
mooniecode[1.12o5] <http://www.geocities.com/tokyo/towers/7933/mooniecode.txt>
SM:5+ F:vM9+[+]Sf+:pSCl D:sNe-Ta-:vEs X:***:a197s|1d:m31s
O:?d+:s[+]:o:a[+]:h+[+]:x P:a25:s6:w:f[+]:eGrBGz:hBrD:t[-]:cWh:bB+:*Li:yH?:r+|-
noit...@hotmail.com
> >The problem is that with tamer
> >vilains, it takes some of the tension out of the story, essential for
> >such a one, because without it, the story lacks excitement, which is
> >what exactly happened.
> --
> This depends only on what you consider exciting, and as such
> cannot be really used as UniversalTruth[TM]. i could as
> well complain the story in the manga is also tame, because
> it doesn't have the guts of victims splattered all over the
> walls...
>
We are comparing just the manga and anime to each other. By the way, how do
you wish to define exciting? That would solve some confusion.
> Out of curiosity..did you honestly _not_ enjoy this story,
> even /before/ you saw its manga counterpart?..
>
Mostly, yes, but it does have some stuff going for it, enough for me to pay
some attention to it. SM is not normally my cup of tea to begin with, but
things like well-told and poorly-told stories all have things in common.
> >Certain anime, I have found, is great at
> >bouncing between drama and comedy quickly. That is what makes them so
> >enjoyable. SM is one of them.
> --
> Again, a matter of taste...
But not entirely. SOme stories may be better told than others, but I may
still prefer the one that has weaker plot threads, and larger assumptions
made.
unless very well done, i find
> such changes somewhat surreal..and while i like surrealism,
> i prefer it in limited doses -- otherwise it quickly loses
> its effect and becomes plain tiresome...
>
Well, Usagi is "normal school girl" who keeps encountering surreal
situations. Is not that a bit tiresome?
> >It is the seriousness underpinning the
> >humor that makes it best. Without its framework, then the humor loses its punch, and the story drags.
> --
> Uhmm this may be [again..] your opinion, but it's simply not
> true; humor is an independent plot device and doesn't need
> seriousness to work well; numerous comedies can serve as a
> proof here...
>
Some is because of unique social incogruities, and others because of the
character's quirkinness. Problems arise when the same humorous themes overly
repeat themselves in SM. Worst, writters started relying on humor from the
villains, turning them quite literally, "jokes." They ought to be taken
seriously as threats, but that is nigh impossible when they are sillier then
the Senshi, and not even as powerful, either. Does this make the villains
better villains? No. If they are made funny at the loss of their
credibility, then that is a mistake.
> >The best story in SM was the third
> >season, which left a suspense over the viewer till the very end. It was
> >a truly beautiful story, well-balanced, and well-crafted.
> --
> Really? that's funny, i thought you'd prefer SuperS series..
THat one focuses on Pegasus, right? THat was the worst one by most
everyone's standards.
> as it comes closest to your ideal of the story -- horror
> undertones running just skin deep under the seemingly goofy
> plot and jokes..ick; >.<;; come to think of it, SuperS was
> the only part of SM which managed to give me creeps...
>
I hope that I got the names right...
> I find S nice,[one of my favourites actually..] but only
> because of the characters... there's no suspense in it at
> all until few final eps..
>
Hm...
> >> who thought it's the interesting plot and characters that
> >> make the story good...but apparently was wrong? :P
> >>
> >You should see thread I started last. It was about that very subject,
> >defining criteria for judging the anime and manga side by side.
> --
> I did see it; since it's exactly like many threads before,
> [and all of them can be closed with "everyone is a critic
> and one's trash is another's treasure"..] i decided to not
> participate...
I was attempting to get beyond it. I offered to define terms in it, and gave
a series of criteria. I am not saying that the manga is more enjoyable;
when you boil it down, I do not think it is, but that is not my point. All I
am saying is that as a story, it has tighter plots, more cohesion, more
continuity, and more tension. Its art I do not care for (which is just my
opinion, so it matters not really), by necessity it lacks the amount of
characterization in the anime, though it is more consistent, and the
characters are better defined. There is far less humor in the manga, too,
but not at the expense of the villains. That is why I deem it superior
strictly in terms of a story. Compared to the anime, I find the manga dull.
Tolaris
>> >The problem is that with tamer
>> >vilains, it takes some of the tension out of the story, essential for
>> >such a one, because without it, the story lacks excitement, which is
>> >what exactly happened.
>> --
>> This depends only on what you consider exciting, and as such
>> cannot be really used as UniversalTruth[TM]. i could as
>> well complain the story in the manga is also tame, because
>> it doesn't have the guts of victims splattered all over the
>> walls...
>
>We are comparing just the manga and anime to each other.
--
We are? i thought [and the subject made me believe so..]
we're talking about the qualities anime lacks, on its own..
>By the way, how do
>you wish to define exciting? That would solve some confusion.
--
Methinks the standard dictionary definition ["to excite: to
stir up the emotions of, stimulate"] would do here..
>> >Certain anime, I have found, is great at
>> >bouncing between drama and comedy quickly. That is what makes them so
>> >enjoyable. SM is one of them.
>> --
>> Again, a matter of taste...
>
>But not entirely. SOme stories may be better told than others,
--
Uhmm..there's no universal definition of 'better' story..[a
certain scene from "Dead Poets' Society" comes to mind here]
the definition of 'better' will still depend on your taste..
>unless very well done, i find
>> such changes somewhat surreal..and while i like surrealism,
>> i prefer it in limited doses -- otherwise it quickly loses
>> its effect and becomes plain tiresome...
>
>Well, Usagi is "normal school girl"
--
...since when?..
>who keeps encountering surreal
>situations. Is not that a bit tiresome?
--
No, since this is a case of conventional [as far as the
magic girls genre goes, anyway..] character encountering
conventional situations...
>> Uhmm this may be [again..] your opinion, but it's simply not
>> true; humor is an independent plot device and doesn't need
>> seriousness to work well; numerous comedies can serve as a
>> proof here...
>
>Some is because of unique social incogruities, and others because of the
>character's quirkinness.
--
The exact reasons why it works really don't matter here...
fact is, it works..despite your original claim. -.^
>Problems arise when the same humorous themes overly
>repeat themselves in SM.
--
They become running gags, and occasionally may go as far as
turning into self-parody. Since i appreciate both, i really
see no problem here...
>Worst, writters started relying on humor from the
>villains, turning them quite literally, "jokes."
--
Really?.. which villains from let's say, last two seasons,
would you consider "jokes" then...and what exactly makes
them "jokes", as opposed to characters more fleshed out than
yer'typical Bad Guy Cardboard Cutout?..
>They ought to be taken
>seriously as threats, but that is nigh impossible when they are sillier then
>the Senshi, and not even as powerful, either.
--
*shrugs* unfortunately, silly and underpowered villains are
normal thing in anime, manga, cartoons, Hollywood movies and
about everywhere else. I don't think you can specifically
condemn SM anime for it..
>> >The best story in SM was the third
>> >season, which left a suspense over the viewer till the very end. It was
>> >a truly beautiful story, well-balanced, and well-crafted.
>> --
>> Really? that's funny, i thought you'd prefer SuperS series..
>
>THat one focuses on Pegasus, right?
--
No; the Pegasus does appear in this series, but is hardly
something it focuses on..
>THat was the worst one by most
>everyone's standards.
--
I'm not surprised, most people notice only the goofy surface
and never give the story a second thought...
>> >You should see thread I started last. It was about that very subject,
>> >defining criteria for judging the anime and manga side by side.
>> --
>> I did see it; since it's exactly like many threads before,
>> [and all of them can be closed with "everyone is a critic
>> and one's trash is another's treasure"..] i decided to not
>> participate...
>
>I was attempting to get beyond it.
--
You can't, since it's impossible to define what makes story
better -- "one's trash.." etc.. ^^
Tolaris
who finally got to read the final three books of the manga
today... 8)
--
just before he died, he said:
"Didn't I kill you yesterday?"
Karcy
> Think about the audience however. In Japan, (and over here as well), the
> demographic for that particular anime is something like pre-teen girls, who
> want nothing to do with the heavier elements of the manga. The FAQ tells a
> little story how when the original ending to the first season aired, angry
> parents called into the studios to complain how emotionally upset their
> children had become.
>
> Yes, the manga has the heavier elements, but in the world of TV, you have to
> suck up to your audience, and leaving in the "bite" as you put it would
> alienate much of the audience, leading to less viewers, which means less money,
> which is bad for them.
*jumps out of lurkerdom*
You know, SM anime fans defend the anime by stating this very reason time and time
again. Toei's changes to the manga isn't just taming down a few aspects here and
there or adding fillers - a lot of drastic, sometimes completely unnecessary
changes are made to the anime. Fine.
And yet this same group comes out and bash DiC for doing roughly the same thing
with Sailormoon. Cutting out emotional bits? Toei did a lot of that, and made some
things appear less 'intense'. Changing character personalities? Didn't Toei did a
lot of that as well? Look at Galaxia, Chibi Usa, Chibi Chibi, Rei...just to name a
few. Taming down gritty bits to suit conservative parents in Japan? What do you
think DiC was doing when they cut out homosexual elements and the infamous
two-episode-merge, that anime SM fans feel so strongly about? Sucking up the
audience? Isn't DiC doing the same thing?
A lot of pre-teen girls do read the SM manga. They are not disturbed neither are
they scalded all the worse for it.
>
>
> Edward Chang
>
Karcy
*who is going back to lurkerdom*
Robert Hutchinson
<snip>
> *jumps out of lurkerdom*
>
> You know, SM anime fans defend the anime by stating this very reason time and time
> again. Toei's changes to the manga isn't just taming down a few aspects here and
> there or adding fillers - a lot of drastic, sometimes completely unnecessary
> changes are made to the anime. Fine.
>
> And yet this same group comes out and bash DiC for doing roughly the same thing
> with Sailormoon. Cutting out emotional bits? Toei did a lot of that, and made some
> things appear less 'intense'. Changing character personalities? Didn't Toei did a
> lot of that as well? Look at Galaxia, Chibi Usa, Chibi Chibi, Rei...just to name a
> few. Taming down gritty bits to suit conservative parents in Japan? What do you
> think DiC was doing when they cut out homosexual elements and the infamous
> two-episode-merge, that anime SM fans feel so strongly about? Sucking up the
> audience? Isn't DiC doing the same thing?
Well, see, most of us like the Toei changes, and most of us dislike the DiC
changes. It's not any more complicated than that.
> A lot of pre-teen girls do read the SM manga. They are not disturbed neither are
> they scalded all the worse for it.
Quite frankly, I find the manga dry and plodding, but that's almost certainly
some personal bias I can't pin down.
Robert Hutchinson
noit...@hotmail.com
> >> >The problem is that with tamer
> >> >vilains, it takes some of the tension out of the story, essential for
> >> >such a one, because without it, the story lacks excitement, which is
> >> >what exactly happened.
> >> --
> >> This depends only on what you consider exciting, and as such
> >> cannot be really used as UniversalTruth[TM]. i could as
> >> well complain the story in the manga is also tame, because
> >> it doesn't have the guts of victims splattered all over the
> >> walls...
> >
> >We are comparing just the manga and anime to each other.
> --
> We are? i thought [and the subject made me believe so..]
> we're talking about the qualities anime lacks, on its own..
>
> >By the way, how do
> >you wish to define exciting? That would solve some confusion.
> --
> Methinks the standard dictionary definition ["to excite: to
> stir up the emotions of, stimulate"] would do here..
>
Yes, but excitement is more subjective then other categories, though, so I am
a little cautious of calling it a category at all. I consider it more of a
product produced from the other categories.
> >> >Certain anime, I have found, is great at
> >> >bouncing between drama and comedy quickly. That is what makes them so
> >> >enjoyable. SM is one of them.
> >> --
> >> Again, a matter of taste...
> >
> >But not entirely. SOme stories may be better told than others,
> --
> Uhmm..there's no universal definition of 'better' story..[a
> certain scene from "Dead Poets' Society" comes to mind here]
> the definition of 'better' will still depend on your taste..
>
There must be some common ground. There is in art, remarkably. It
transcends categories. Some go for realism, srrealism, impressionism, etc.
WHat the purposes are of the artists vary, but the common ground does not.
> >unless very well done, i find
> >> such changes somewhat surreal..and while i like surrealism,
> >> i prefer it in limited doses -- otherwise it quickly loses
> >> its effect and becomes plain tiresome...
> >
> >Well, Usagi is a "normal school girl"
> --
> ...since when?..
>
I placed it in quotation marks, you know?
> >who keeps encountering surreal
> >situations. Is not that a bit tiresome?
> --
> No, since this is a case of conventional [as far as the
> magic girls genre goes, anyway..] character encountering
> conventional situations...
>
True, but it is in how well it is done. I argue on those grounds.
> >> Uhmm this may be [again..] your opinion, but it's simply not
> >> true; humor is an independent plot device and doesn't need
> >> seriousness to work well; numerous comedies can serve as a
> >> proof here...
> >
> >Some is because of unique social incogruities, and others because of the
> >character's quirkinness.
> --
> The exact reasons why it works really don't matter here...
> fact is, it works..despite your original claim. -.^
>
THere are two levels. First, on the level of individual jokes, and second,
on the overall scheme of things, which worked in S, but not SS,
comparatively.
> >Problems arise when the same humorous themes overly
> >repeat themselves in SM.
> --
> They become running gags, and occasionally may go as far as
> turning into self-parody. Since i appreciate both, i really
> see no problem here...
>
At the expense of resecting the character, I might add. In S, Usagi was
ffar more competent then SS, making the humor less top-heavy.
> >Worst, writters started relying on humor from the
> >villains, turning them quite literally, "jokes."
> --
> Really?.. which villains from let's say, last two seasons,
> would you consider "jokes" then...and what exactly makes
> them "jokes", as opposed to characters more fleshed out than
> yer'typical Bad Guy Cardboard Cutout?..
>
FIne. the Amazon Trio. they never succeed, are preoccupied with trying to
seduce girls or guys they take a shine to. They are often brushed off, not
knowing what they did wrong. THey never have a defining moment of villainy
like Zoycite. They also do not have the power to go toe to toe with the
Senshi, really. Them drinking together and talking among themselves is fine,
but when wreaking villainy, they do not generate excitement or concern. Even
worse, there is not plot development duringtheir season half, making it go by
slowly.
> >They ought to be taken
> >seriously as threats, but that is nigh impossible when they are sillier then
> >the Senshi, and not even as powerful, either.
> --
> *shrugs* unfortunately, silly and underpowered villains are
> normal thing in anime, manga, cartoons, Hollywood movies and
> about everywhere else. I don't think you can specifically
> condemn SM anime for it..
>
I do not know about others, but just because they do it too not ought not to
be reason for SM to be poorly written. Such is not the way to become a
classic. of course, SM is about making a buck, so that was not the intent.
Still, others with the intent of making a buck have become classics anyway,
thanks to their being well done.
> >> >The best story in SM was the third
> >> >season, which left a suspense over the viewer till the very end. It was
> >> >a truly beautiful story, well-balanced, and well-crafted.
> >> --
> >> Really? that's funny, i thought you'd prefer SuperS series..
> >
> >THat one focuses on Pegasus, right?
> --
> No; the Pegasus does appear in this series, but is hardly
> something it focuses on..
>
Why do you think I should like it? I am curious.
> >THat was the worst one by most
> >everyone's standards.
> --
> I'm not surprised, most people notice only the goofy surface
> and never give the story a second thought...
>
ANd you think this was the best one? Why?
> >> >You should see thread I started last. It was about that very subject,
> >> >defining criteria for judging the anime and manga side by side.
> >> --
> >> I did see it; since it's exactly like many threads before,
> >> [and all of them can be closed with "everyone is a critic
> >> and one's trash is another's treasure"..] i decided to not
> >> participate...
> >
> >I was attempting to get beyond it.
> --
> You can't, since it's impossible to define what makes story
> better -- "one's trash.." etc.. ^^
>
That is why the cycle keeps repeating. None of the SM fans is willing to
look with me from my analytical point of view. I am not saying that yours is
wrong. You love the show. Fine. Just see the logic in mine.
Kirk Rende
"Quoth the Raven" <qthe...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
news:3866b16...@news.cci.net.au...
> syndrome. I was introduced to the anime before the manga, and fell in
> love with it. I also got spoiled. In the anime, when Uranus attacks,
> we get to see a flash of light *captured* in a clenched fist, see the
> look on Uranus' face and hear the magnificent Ogata Megumi's voice
> yell "WORLDOOOOO.... SHAKING!!" Stock footage, yes, but still, you get
> used to it. And then you see the damage done to the enemy -- actually
> *see* the damage done.
>
> When I see a manga battle it's like "picture of senshi's face with
> speech bubble next to it containing attack name. Nice picture, but
> that's about it. Picture of enemy yelling "Aaah!". Is the enemy dead
> or just hurt? Dunno, let's check the next picture. Well, that looks
> like... yeah, I _think_ it's dead..." And so on. (There are, of
> course, exceptions to this -- I was impressed with the manga 10 Saturn
> vs Pharoah 90 battle -- somehow the fact that we never got to see her
> face, just her proud stance as she held the Glaive up high and sealed
> Pharoah 90's fate along with her own with the "Death Reborn
> Revolution" made it all the more poignant.)
>
> Basically, the anime comminucates character's personalities and the
> emotions they're feeling through more than just facial expression and
> stance. It also communicates it through things like voice tone, the
> flicker of an eyebrow, the twitch of a mouth trying not to smile. All
> the things that make me feel like I'm watching real people (even if
> their thighs are longer than the rest of their bodies ;-)
>
> Besides, character changes or no, I can't help but feel that the
> changes (or most of them, anyway) were for the better. I mean,
> consider this. Ami lives with her mother. Minako lives with her
> mother. Rei lives alone at a shine with only her grandfather, and she
> appears to have little to no interest in men OR women. She agrees with
> Minako in one manga act that they don't need men, if they have their
> friends. Makoto lives alone, an only child orphaned. Hotaru is an only
> child orphaned, and then adopted by Haruka, Michiru and Setsuna, whose
> families are never explained. Okay, so H&M are in love, but dear me,
> is Usagi the ONLY senshi that's actually allowed to fall in love with
> a man? It seems to me that Naoko-sensi was trying to make the senshi a
> family unto themselves, with "Mama" Neo Queen Serenity and "Papa" Neo
> King Endymion at the head. That's another reason why I like the anime
> better, the senshi have *gasp* lives of their own! They actually
> *shock, horror* LIKE boys! They actually act more like a teenaged girl
> would act. As for the Outers, yeah they're mysterious as always, but
> at least
>
> As for the Starlights, I do get annoyed at Naoko when I read the
> manga. They're no more than "convenience cahracters" in my mind. She
> needed someone to tell Usagi-tachi that Galaxia was bad, so it was
> like "Hi. My name's Seiya and I'm in love with Usagi. Hi, I'm Taiki
> and I'm smart. Hi, I'm Yaten and I'm a smart-alec. We're the
> Starlights, we're looking for the Princess and we don't trust anyone.
> Oh, look, there she is. Okay, we'll check out the castles of the
> Outers -- damn, Galaxia got her first, have to go to the Cauldron now
> -- oh dear, we're sinking into the river. Oh dear, we appear to be
> dead." And the poor Princess follows soon after (though at least she
> does get more attention than in the anime...)
>
> Now, compared to the anime Starlights, who really *did* spend a long
> time searching for their Princess and really *did* suffer a lot of
> heartache and self-doubt along the way, the manga characterization
> seems simply too trite. And the ending -- Well, 'our' senshi had had
> their starseeds stolen, and came back, so surely the Starlights were
> all right too, but Naoko did show it. She couldn't even be bothered to
> spare one panel for someone to say "It was nice to get to say goodbye
> to them -- I hope they have good luck on Kinmokusei" or something
> simple. Nope. (Okay, I'm a Starlights fan, but it did tick me off to
> see them get shafted like that. It goes both ways too -- I LOATHE the
> anime Michiru, but the manga one is even occasionally likeable, and
> believe me, that is a BIG jump up.)
>
> Same for the ones I call the "Minor Major" villians (ie the Generals,
> the Amazon Trio, Galaxia's Animamates etc). The small bosses who work
> for the big boss. I liked how the Generals came back occasionally to
> help Tuxedo Kamen in the manga, but I thought it was a pity there was
> no relationship between Kunzite and Zoisite. I'm glad the anime did
> that. It was a little bit of extra depth that the manga couldn't do,
> because it was packed in around the senshi, and Usagi in particular.
>
> To me, a great plot isn't worth a dime if the characters aren't real
> to me. The manga may be a tightly plotted story that unfolds
> wham-wham-wham, each plot twist hitting you in the gut, but if the
> characters aren't deep enough, it's no good for me. And that's why I
> prefer the anime -- each little movement, each tiny voice quaver,
> makes the characters, and therefore the whole thing, more real to me.
>
> So basically, I prefer the anime because even if it did change some of
> the characters, it gets those characters' personalities across better.
> And I prefer it that way. Besides, as Robert says above, in many cases
> I also simply prefer the way TOEI did things (ie creating a
> Kunzite/Zoisite relationship, making Galaxia a victim of Chaos and her
> own stubborness and pride rather than truly cruel and evil etc)
Bravo! While I'm in about 95% agreement, this was a great post. Keep up
the good work.
Tolaris
>> >By the way, how do
>> >you wish to define exciting? That would solve some confusion.
>> --
>> Methinks the standard dictionary definition ["to excite: to
>> stir up the emotions of, stimulate"] would do here..
>
>Yes, but excitement is more subjective then other categories,
--
How is it more subjective than 'quality of art/music/
plot'?.. I'd say they're on the same level..not that it
matters any, really.
>> Uhmm..there's no universal definition of 'better' story..[a
>> certain scene from "Dead Poets' Society" comes to mind here]
>> the definition of 'better' will still depend on your taste..
>
>There must be some common ground. There is in art, remarkably. It
>transcends categories. Some go for realism, srrealism, impressionism, etc.
>WHat the purposes are of the artists vary, but the common ground does not.
--
*japanese music, classical music, rock, techno, rap;
*prehistoric drawings, Medieval art, impressionism, cgi;
..can you tell what common ground these share, and how to
decide which creation is /better/ than the other?.. i doubt
it...
>> >Well, Usagi is a "normal school girl"
>> --
>> ...since when?..
>>
>I placed it in quotation marks, you know?
--
Which could mean two things -- either you're referring to
'definition' of normal school girl, or imply Usagi isn't
one; since the latter would strip your question out of
sense, i've presumed you'd meant the former...
>> >Problems arise when the same humorous themes overly
>> >repeat themselves in SM.
>> --
>> They become running gags, and occasionally may go as far as
>> turning into self-parody. Since i appreciate both, i really
>> see no problem here...
>
>At the expense of resecting the character, I might add. In S, Usagi was
>ffar more competent then SS, making the humor less top-heavy.
--
You haven't seen much of SuperS, have you?...
>> --
>> Really?.. which villains from let's say, last two seasons,
>> would you consider "jokes" then...and what exactly makes
>> them "jokes", as opposed to characters more fleshed out than
>> yer'typical Bad Guy Cardboard Cutout?..
>>
>
>FIne. the Amazon Trio. they never succeed,
--
They successfully accomplish their individual little plans,
but can't win the war since it's against the rules of the
show..this makes them as competent as about any other
villain group in SM.
>are preoccupied with trying to
>seduce girls or guys they take a shine to.
--
Which i find a very villain tactic, actually; to make
someone like you [or even love..] when you're going to
betray them from the very beginning, is extremely cruel...
>They are often brushed off, not
>knowing what they did wrong. THey never have a defining moment of villainy
>like Zoycite.
--
What's so villainous about little Zoi?.. that he eliminated
a traitor of the Kingdom, the fact he tried to stab his
enemy in the back..or what?...
>They also do not have the power to go toe to toe with the
>Senshi, really. Them drinking together and talking among themselves is fine,
>but when wreaking villainy, they do not generate excitement or concern.
--
They don't?.. if you don't care for their victims, maybe...
>Even
>worse, there is not plot development duringtheir season half, making it go by
>slowly.
--
I haven't noticed, there was lot of character development to
concentrate on...
>> --
>> *shrugs* unfortunately, silly and underpowered villains are
>> normal thing in anime, manga, cartoons, Hollywood movies and
>> about everywhere else. I don't think you can specifically
>> condemn SM anime for it..
>
>I do not know about others, but just because they do it too not ought not to
>be reason for SM to be poorly written.
--
Uhmm.. if this is a common thing in every genre then it
means SM isn't 'poorly written', but rather meets the
standards...
>[superS]
>Why do you think I should like it? I am curious.
--
I've explained it already, in the part you decided to snip;
look it up if you're indeed curious...
>> >THat was the worst one by most
>> >everyone's standards.
>> --
>> I'm not surprised, most people notice only the goofy surface
>> and never give the story a second thought...
>>
>ANd you think this was the best one? Why?
--
I'm not saying it was the best one, but that it's the one
i've found most disturbing...
>["what's better" thread]
>> --
>> You can't, since it's impossible to define what makes story
>> better -- "one's trash.." etc.. ^^
>
>That is why the cycle keeps repeating. None of the SM fans is willing to
>look with me from my analytical point of view.
--
Maybe because they realize there's no sense in what you're
trying to do?.. You can compare manga to anime, but it'll
not bring you any closer to determining which of them is
better..
And come to think of it...even if you could determine it,
what's the use of this knowledge?.. it's like trying to
determine what's better, Macs or PCs...pointless.
Tolaris
hoping this won't turn into another o.s. war... ^^;;
--
The more you run over a cat, the flatter it gets.
Quoth the Raven
Cheers!
Quoth the Raven
See my page at http://www.crosswinds.net/~qtheraven
MoonieCode (1.12.05) SM: 5+
F: sSt>++ In++[+] Tx+[+] :vGa>++ 4G+[+] :aKa>+ Lu+ Ar+ :p*++
D: sNe>-- Ur>- :vEs :aRy :pSS
X: * a*s++
O: d+ s- o- a h+
P: a20 :s51 :w-- :f :e B|BrLg :hBr :t- :cWh :bO- :*Le :x+ :r[+]|-
Roshni Kasumo and Runo
>Date: Sun, 26 December 1999 07:46 PM EST
>Message-id: <b1cd6s4v1gj7aodak...@4ax.com>
Heh. You know, I've always wondered about that. Shoujo heronices are always
toted to be normal girls... but, well, usually they're not. I mean, Usagi
herself is a pretty strange girl from the get go. ^^;;
>
>>> >Problems arise when the same humorous themes overly
>>> >repeat themselves in SM.
>>> --
>>> They become running gags, and occasionally may go as far as
>>> turning into self-parody. Since i appreciate both, i really
>>> see no problem here...
>>
>>At the expense of resecting the character, I might add. In S, Usagi
was
>>ffar more competent then SS, making the humor less top-heavy.
>--
>You haven't seen much of SuperS, have you?...
>
Well, maybe not in decision making, but I think they mean some of her
reactions. For example, Moon sometimes watches the Lemures do their tricks
during really inconvient times, like when Rei is attacked. First of all, that's
a really stupid thing to do, and instead of being amazed by it she should have
attacked the damn thing and gotten Rei to safety. I mean, it's a MONSTER, for
Pete's sake.
>
>>> --
>>> Really?.. which villains from let's say, last two seasons,
>>> would you consider "jokes" then...and what exactly makes
>>> them "jokes", as opposed to characters more fleshed out than
>>> yer'typical Bad Guy Cardboard Cutout?..
>>>
>>
>>FIne. the Amazon Trio. they never succeed,
>--
>They successfully accomplish their individual little plans,
>but can't win the war since it's against the rules of the
>show..this makes them as competent as about any other
>villain group in SM.
>
I think another hit was the fact that SuperS had little villian rotation,
unlike other seasons (aliens from R nonwithstanding). Usually, we had an
introduction of a new minion every 10 eps. or so. But SuperS gives it to us in
two batches: The Trio and Quartet. We really don't get that much change in the
Trio for a while (the Quartet have a bit more)
I still have think that Fisheye was the only Trio member to have any sort of
deep personality.
>
>>are preoccupied with trying to
>>seduce girls or guys they take a shine to.
>--
>Which i find a very villain tactic, actually; to make
>someone like you [or even love..] when you're going to
>betray them from the very beginning, is extremely cruel...
>
>
Frankly that freaks me out. I always thought that's kinda dark given the tone,
and it's something I never liked. But I guess that helps soften the edge to it.
I've noticed that whenever people got attacked, as the season progressed the
attacks went quicker. For example, a daimon extracts a heartcrystal it takes a
while, while later it's Eudy's gun or something. While the Trio take a while to
extarct mirrors, the Quartet do it in a second. I figured this was a writer's
tactic to ease suffering. I don't wince as much when the AQ shoot their little
balls as opposed to the Trio's drawn out extraction.
Tho it's noted that not everyone reacts the same way. Some people freak out
when their MysticObject is removed, some yell, some just slump over. I always
thought then it was more psychological, as having a mirror or crystal come out
of you with flashy effects sure tends to freak ya out.
>
>>They are often brushed off, not
>>knowing what they did wrong. THey never have a defining moment of villainy
>>like Zoycite.
>--
>What's so villainous about little Zoi?.. that he eliminated
>a traitor of the Kingdom, the fact he tried to stab his
>enemy in the back..or what?...
>
>
They have higher stupid potential. ^-^
Granted, this happens after Classic. None of the DK generals ever looks really
comedically stupiid, non counting Zoi's trek thru the sewers.
Also, besides having an outlet for their own libidos, none of the SuperS
villians (save the bosses) really gave a fig about their missions, tho that may
be a fault of Zirconia not telling them.
>
>>They also do not have the power to go toe to toe with the
>>Senshi, really. Them drinking together and talking among themselves is
>fine,
>>but when wreaking villainy, they do not generate excitement or concern.
>--
>They don't?.. if you don't care for their victims, maybe...
>
>
>>Even
>>worse, there is not plot development duringtheir season half, making it go
>by
>>slowly.
>--
>I haven't noticed, there was lot of character development to
>concentrate on...
Well, at least the senshi get lots of development relating to their non-senshi
forms, which I'm a sucker for.
Also, the extras (e.g., VictimsOfTheDay) are really stellar, off-the-wall and
funny, tho they don't ever appear more than once. What's amusing is mos of the
situations the senshi get in are fundamentally wierd, villian involvent or not.
^_^
In any case, I find the 'civvie' bits of SuperS vastly more entertaining than
the senshi-relevant bits.
-------------------------------------------------------------
"Even a dog knows when its tripped over and when its kicked."
ICQ# 53439891
noit...@hotmail.com
Karcy <ac...@tm.net.my> wrote:
> EdwChang wrote:
>
> > Think about the audience however. In Japan, (and over here as well),
the
> > demographic for that particular anime is something like pre-teen
girls, who
> > want nothing to do with the heavier elements of the manga. The FAQ
tells a
> > little story how when the original ending to the first season aired,
angry
> > parents called into the studios to complain how emotionally upset
their
> > children had become.
> >
> > Yes, the manga has the heavier elements, but in the world of TV, you
have to
> > suck up to your audience, and leaving in the "bite" as you put it
would
> > alienate much of the audience, leading to less viewers, which means
less money,
> > which is bad for them.
>
>
> You know, SM anime fans defend the anime by stating this very reason
time and time
> again. Toei's changes to the manga isn't just taming down a few
aspects here and
> there or adding fillers - a lot of drastic, sometimes completely
unnecessary
> changes are made to the anime. Fine.
>
> And yet this same group comes out and bash DiC for doing roughly the
same thing
> with Sailormoon. Cutting out emotional bits? Toei did a lot of that,
and made some
> things appear less 'intense'. Changing character personalities? Didn't
Toei did a
> lot of that as well? Look at Galaxia, Chibi Usa, Chibi Chibi,
Rei...just to name a
> few. Taming down gritty bits to suit conservative parents in Japan?
What do you
> think DiC was doing when they cut out homosexual elements and the
infamous
> two-episode-merge, that anime SM fans feel so strongly about? Sucking
up the
> audience? Isn't DiC doing the same thing?
It is nice to hear those worse from somone other than me for a change.
>
> A lot of pre-teen girls do read the SM manga. They are not disturbed
neither are
> they scalded all the worse for it.
>
There will always be dogs in the manger, so the complaints of the few
ought not outweigh the quality which satisfies so many.
noit...@hotmail.com
> >Yes, but excitement is more subjective then other categories,
> --
> How is it more subjective than 'quality of art/music/
> plot'?.. I'd say they're on the same level..not that it
> matters any, really.
>
me. The thing is, there are not too many that follow SM, methinks.
There are are levels of literary greatness, because writting is a skill.
> >> Uhmm..there's no universal definition of 'better' story..[a
> >> certain scene from "Dead Poets' Society" comes to mind here]
> >> the definition of 'better' will still depend on your taste..
> >
> >There must be some common ground. There is in art, remarkably. It
> >transcends categories. Some go for realism, srrealism,
impressionism, etc.
> >WHat the purposes are of the artists vary, but the common ground does
not.
> --
> *japanese music, classical music, rock, techno, rap;
> *prehistoric drawings, Medieval art, impressionism, cgi;
>
> ..can you tell what common ground these share, and how to
> decide which creation is /better/ than the other?.. i doubt
> it...
>
The attempt to convey meaning. I am not comparing them to each other.
If wished, it is possible to break down and analyze their similarities
and differences, strengths, and weaknesses, et cetera. It can only go
so far, since they are so different, and to say one is better would wot
be possible. With SM anime and mangaon the other hand, it is worlds
easier.
> >> >Well, Usagi is a "normal school girl"
> >> --
> >> ...since when?..
> >>
> >I placed it in quotation marks, you know?
> --
> Which could mean two things -- either you're referring to
> 'definition' of normal school girl, or imply Usagi isn't
> one; since the latter would strip your question out of
> sense, i've presumed you'd meant the former...
>
Since she found out who she is, she has not been one.
> >> >Problems arise when the same humorous themes overly
> >> >repeat themselves in SM.
> >> --
> >> They become running gags, and occasionally may go as far as
> >> turning into self-parody. Since i appreciate both, i really
> >> see no problem here...
> >
> >At the expense of resecting the character, I might add. In S,
Usagi was
> >ffar more competent then SS, making the humor less top-heavy.
> --
> You haven't seen much of SuperS, have you?...
>
Only every episode. I do not think we are on the same page.
> >> --
> >> Really?.. which villains from let's say, last two seasons,
> >> would you consider "jokes" then...and what exactly makes
> >> them "jokes", as opposed to characters more fleshed out than
> >> yer'typical Bad Guy Cardboard Cutout?..
> >>
> >
> >FIne. the Amazon Trio. they never succeed,
> --
> They successfully accomplish their individual little plans,
> but can't win the war since it's against the rules of the
> show..this makes them as competent as about any other
> villain group in SM.
>
Oh? The rules of the show also dictate that the villain always gets to
see if his victim is the one he is looking for. They do what their
job's generic purpose is, and their plans for romancing their victims do
poorly, usually. Besides, the show's rules are so mechanical in format
that it radically decresases the quality of the story. That and the
stock footage.
> >are preoccupied with trying to
> >seduce girls or guys they take a shine to.
> --
> Which i find a very villain tactic, actually; to make
> someone like you [or even love..] when you're going to
> betray them from the very beginning, is extremely cruel...
>
And very poorly done, too. if they were good at it, it would be
different. Look at Nephrite, and his suave charm which he used to take
advantage of others.
> >They are often brushed off, not
> >knowing what they did wrong. THey never have a defining moment of
villainy
> >like Zoycite.
> --
> What's so villainous about little Zoi?.. that he eliminated
> a traitor of the Kingdom, the fact he tried to stab his
> enemy in the back..or what?...
>
His enjoying his nastiness so much, and also that he successfully
collected the Rainbow Crystals, and killing Tuxedo Kamen.
> >They also do not have the power to go toe to toe with the
> >Senshi, really. Them drinking together and talking among themselves
is fine,
> >but when wreaking villainy, they do not generate excitement or
concern.
> --
> They don't?.. if you don't care for their victims, maybe...
>
Oh, I feel sorry for them, but somehow, Villains like Nephrite made me
feel sorrier. I am not saying I am a big fan of Nephrite's. I am only
saying that I like his efficient style of villainy, even if he was not
too successful.
> >Even
> >worse, there is not plot development duringtheir season half, making
it go by
> >slowly.
> --
> I haven't noticed, there was lot of character development to
> concentrate on...
>
O_O There was,perhaps but these characters I really disliked, so that
might have tainted my outlook some.
> >> --
> >> *shrugs* unfortunately, silly and underpowered villains are
> >> normal thing in anime, manga, cartoons, Hollywood movies and
> >> about everywhere else. I don't think you can specifically
> >> condemn SM anime for it..
> >
> >I do not know about others, but just because they do it too not ought
not to
> >be reason for SM to be poorly written.
> --
> Uhmm.. if this is a common thing in every genre then it
> means SM isn't 'poorly written', but rather meets the
> standards...
>
I have come across far better foes in those categories that you have
just mentioned.
> >[superS]
> >Why do you think I should like it? I am curious.
> --
> I've explained it already, in the part you decided to snip;
> look it up if you're indeed curious...
>
I think so.
> >> >THat was the worst one by most
> >> >everyone's standards.
> >> --
> >> I'm not surprised, most people notice only the goofy surface
> >> and never give the story a second thought...
> >>
> >ANd you think this was the best one? Why?
> --
> I'm not saying it was the best one, but that it's the one
> i've found most disturbing...
>
Hm.
> >["what's better" thread]
> >> --
> >> You can't, since it's impossible to define what makes story
> >> better -- "one's trash.." etc.. ^^
> >
> >That is why the cycle keeps repeating. None of the SM fans is
willing to
> >look with me from my analytical point of view.
> --
> Maybe because they realize there's no sense in what you're
> trying to do?.. You can compare manga to anime, but it'll
> not bring you any closer to determining which of them is
> better..
Sure, you can. It depends on the givens you have, and which standards
that you accept.
> And come to think of it...even if you could determine it,
> what's the use of this knowledge?.. it's like trying to
> determine what's better, Macs or PCs...pointless.
>
I would not go there. This could be said of a lot of things.
Michi-chan
>
> > And yet this same group comes out and bash DiC for doing roughly the
> same thing
> > with Sailormoon. Cutting out emotional bits? Toei did a lot of that,
> and made some
> > things appear less 'intense'. Changing character personalities? Didn't
> Toei did a
> > lot of that as well? Look at Galaxia, Chibi Usa, Chibi Chibi,
> Rei...just to name a
> > few. Taming down gritty bits to suit conservative parents in Japan?
> What do you
> > think DiC was doing when they cut out homosexual elements and the
> infamous
> > two-episode-merge, that anime SM fans feel so strongly about? Sucking
> up the
> > audience? Isn't DiC doing the same thing?
>
> It is nice to hear those worse from somone other than me for a change.
You two aren't the only ones to say those things. I tried saying that
like two years ago now. Most people don't see any problems with the
changes Toei made though.
--
Michi-chan
who preferred the DiC Zoycite to the Toei Zoisite
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noit...@hotmail.com
> >
> > You know, SM anime fans defend the anime by stating this very reason time and time
> > again. Toei's changes to the manga isn't just taming down a few aspects here and
> > there or adding fillers - a lot of drastic, sometimes completely unnecessary
> > changes are made to the anime. Fine.
> >
> > with Sailormoon. Cutting out emotional bits? Toei did a lot of that, and made some
> > things appear less 'intense'. Changing character personalities? Didn't Toei did a
> > lot of that as well? Look at Galaxia, Chibi Usa, Chibi Chibi, Rei...just to name a
> > few. Taming down gritty bits to suit conservative parents in Japan? What do you
> > think DiC was doing when they cut out homosexual elements and the infamous
> > two-episode-merge, that anime SM fans feel so strongly about? Sucking up the
> > audience? Isn't DiC doing the same thing?
>
> changes. It's not any more complicated than that.
>
noit...@hotmail.com
I have to agree with you here. THe manga panels are often confusing, and
Uranus's attack was my favorite. Too bad the anime does not often include
the manga's carnage.
> Basically, the anime comminucates character's personalities and the
> emotions they're feeling through more than just facial expression and
> stance. It also communicates it through things like voice tone, the
> flicker of an eyebrow, the twitch of a mouth trying not to smile. All
> the things that make me feel like I'm watching real people (even if
> their thighs are longer than the rest of their bodies ;-)
>
Yes.
> Besides, character changes or no, I can't help but feel that the
> changes (or most of them, anyway) were for the better. I mean,
> consider this. Ami lives with her mother. Minako lives with her
> mother. Rei lives alone at a shine with only her grandfather, and she
> appears to have little to no interest in men OR women.
That, I admire. In the anime, there is none of the senshi who really in not
guy-crazy except Ami, who is study-crazy. There are a number of girls who
are not guycrazy, and not only that, by changing Rei's personality to that of
one wanting to be an idol star, thatstarts to overlap Minako, causing
problems.
She agrees with
> Minako in one manga act that they don't need men, if they have their
> friends. Makoto lives alone, an only child orphaned. Hotaru is an only
> child orphaned, and then adopted by Haruka, Michiru and Setsuna, whose
> families are never explained. Okay, so H&M are in love, but dear me,
> is Usagi the ONLY senshi that's actually allowed to fall in love with
> a man? It seems to me that Naoko-sensi was trying to make the senshi a
> family unto themselves, with "Mama" Neo Queen Serenity and "Papa" Neo
> King Endymion at the head. That's another reason why I like the anime
> better, the senshi have *gasp* lives of their own!
No problem with that, but there ought to be a common ground between the two
extremes.
They actually
> *shock, horror* LIKE boys!
They do, they do. Look at the first story arc, and the Sailor V manga.
Minako does lots. As for the others, we see that side to them little, as
they are pretty busy. Ami is study-crazy, not allowing time for her to focus
on that, Rei is flat out uninterested, and Makoto broke up with a guy once,
but still thinks of him.
They actually act more like a teenaged girl
> would act. As for the Outers, yeah they're mysterious as always, but
> at least
>
> As for the Starlights, I do get annoyed at Naoko when I read the
> manga. They're no more than "convenience cahracters" in my mind. She
> needed someone to tell Usagi-tachi that Galaxia was bad, so it was
> like "Hi. My name's Seiya and I'm in love with Usagi. Hi, I'm Taiki
> and I'm smart. Hi, I'm Yaten and I'm a smart-alec. We're the
> Starlights, we're looking for the Princess and we don't trust anyone.
> Oh, look, there she is. Okay, we'll check out the castles of the
> Outers -- damn, Galaxia got her first, have to go to the Cauldron now
> -- oh dear, we're sinking into the river. Oh dear, we appear to be
> dead." And the poor Princess follows soon after (though at least she
> does get more attention than in the anime...)
>
What you say appeals to my negative Starlight sentiment. could the story have
gotten by without them?
> Now, compared to the anime Starlights, who really *did* spend a long
> time searching for their Princess and really *did* suffer a lot of
> heartache and self-doubt along the way, the manga characterization
> seems simply too trite. And the ending -- Well, 'our' senshi had had
> their starseeds stolen, and came back, so surely the Starlights were
> all right too, but Naoko did show it. She couldn't even be bothered to
> spare one panel for someone to say "It was nice to get to say goodbye
> to them -- I hope they have good luck on Kinmokusei" or something
> simple. Nope. (Okay, I'm a Starlights fan, but it did tick me off to
> see them get shafted like that. It goes both ways too -- I LOATHE the
> anime Michiru, but the manga one is even occasionally likeable, and
> believe me, that is a BIG jump up.)
>
Why do you hate her, so? SHe and Haruka are my favorites. Their philosophy
echoes mine.
> Same for the ones I call the "Minor Major" villians (ie the Generals,
> the Amazon Trio, Galaxia's Animamates etc). The small bosses who work
> for the big boss. I liked how the Generals came back occasionally to
> help Tuxedo Kamen in the manga, but I thought it was a pity there was
> no relationship between Kunzite and Zoisite. I'm glad the anime did
> that. It was a little bit of extra depth that the manga couldn't do,
> because it was packed in around the senshi, and Usagi in particular.
>
What I loved about the anime Zoisite was that he got to ice some people, and
collected the Rainbow Crystals succesfully. I know of no other foe so
effective.
> To me, a great plot isn't worth a dime if the characters aren't real
> to me. The manga may be a tightly plotted story that unfolds
> wham-wham-wham, each plot twist hitting you in the gut, but if the
> characters aren't deep enough, it's no good for me. And that's why I
> prefer the anime -- each little movement, each tiny voice quaver,
> makes the characters, and therefore the whole thing, more real to me.
>
But if the plot is too watered-down, it does not work, either. You just see
these well-charAacterized characters not acting logically, and it grates upon
me to no end.
> So basically, I prefer the anime because even if it did change some of
> the characters, it gets those characters' personalities across better.
Yes, the anime did far better in character development, yet lagged miserably
behind elsewhere.
> And I prefer it that way. Besides, as Robert says above, in many cases
> I also simply prefer the way TOEI did things (ie creating a
> Kunzite/Zoisite relationship, making Galaxia a victim of Chaos and her
> own stubborness and pride rather than truly cruel and evil etc)
Yes, but Usagi was terribly illogical in her philosophy. If she really
wishes not to kill anymore, why is she a soldier, and why does she keep
killing monsters that are quite alive, anyways?
noit...@hotmail.com
Michi-chan <ztsu...@geocities.com> wrote:
> noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > And yet this same group comes out and bash DiC for doing roughly the
> > same thing
> > > with Sailormoon. Cutting out emotional bits? Toei did a lot of that,
> > and made some
> > > things appear less 'intense'. Changing character personalities? Didn't
> > Toei did a
> > > lot of that as well? Look at Galaxia, Chibi Usa, Chibi Chibi,
> > Rei...just to name a
> > > few. Taming down gritty bits to suit conservative parents in Japan?
> > What do you
> > > think DiC was doing when they cut out homosexual elements and the
> > infamous
> > > two-episode-merge, that anime SM fans feel so strongly about? Sucking
> > up the
> > > audience? Isn't DiC doing the same thing?
> >
>
> You two aren't the only ones to say those things. I tried saying that
> like two years ago now. Most people don't see any problems with the
> changes Toei made though.
Well, for whatever things they ay say, they cannot brag about Toei's
improving the plot. If they had left it more of less alone, then most of my
problems would be assuaged.
Robert Hutchinson
> Robert Hutchinson <ser...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Karcy wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > >
> > > You know, SM anime fans defend the anime by stating this very reason time and time
> > > again. Toei's changes to the manga isn't just taming down a few aspects here and
> > > there or adding fillers - a lot of drastic, sometimes completely unnecessary
> > > changes are made to the anime. Fine.
> > >
> > > with Sailormoon. Cutting out emotional bits? Toei did a lot of that, and made some
> > > things appear less 'intense'. Changing character personalities? Didn't Toei did a
> > > lot of that as well? Look at Galaxia, Chibi Usa, Chibi Chibi, Rei...just to name a
> > > few. Taming down gritty bits to suit conservative parents in Japan? What do you
> > > think DiC was doing when they cut out homosexual elements and the infamous
> > > two-episode-merge, that anime SM fans feel so strongly about? Sucking up the
> > > audience? Isn't DiC doing the same thing?
> >
> > changes. It's not any more complicated than that.
>
...
No changes "in particular." I'm not familiar enough with the manga to list
any. I mean that the changes, whatever they happen to be, resulted in a good
anime, IMO.
Robert Hutchinson
Robert Hutchinson
> Too bad the anime does not often include the manga's carnage.
o_O
Uh, yeah, too bad.
Robert Hutchinson
noit...@hotmail.com
I see. For starters, by changing Rei, she, instead of not being guy-crazy
like the rest the senshi except AMi, who is study-crazy, she was made like
everyone else, and her wanting to be an idol star overlapped with Minako,
which was good for neither character. In the manga, Minako has a great sense
of responsibility, while in the manga, she is progessively more of a ditz.
Also from what I have seen, the manga is far more consistent in depicting
characters. In S, Usagi cries twice, I think, while come SS, she does so in
spades. Is that an improvement? Also, in the amnga, there was a lot more
violence and carnage. Unfotunately, most the bite was taken out or the anime
in part to appeal to younger audience, though there are still some especially
gory scenes, but by the last couple seasons, the only graphic one that comes
to mind is SM stabbing Galaxica. Also, in the manga, Chibiusa looked up to
SM, and admired her, so it was a more mature relationship. After a while,
petty bickering is not funny anymore. There has to be some progression, but
instead, when they finally get serious, it just is for a the crisis, and
then go back to as they were before, learning nothing. Besides, in the
previous season, their relationship seemed different then subsequently
portrayed. Also, in the manga, the plots were tighter, too. Instead of
being fleshed out in the manga, the plots wound up being diminished.
Tolaris
>> How is it more subjective than 'quality of art/music/
>> plot'?.. I'd say they're on the same level..not that it
>> matters any, really.
>>
>There is a definite distinction, I think, and not a few would agree with
>me. The thing is, there are not too many that follow SM, methinks.
>There are are levels of literary greatness, because writting is a skill.
--
Despite the fact there may indeed be many who'd agree with
you, i'll cheerfully disagree; ^^ The writing skill is
typically determined by the writer's ability to both avoid
common errors, and excite their readers...now, what is
considered an error depends strictly on the tastes of the
public...and so does the excitement the story may invoke...
>> >> Uhmm..there's no universal definition of 'better' story..
>[..]
>> >
>> >There must be some common ground. There is in art, remarkably. [..]
>> --
>> *japanese music, classical music, rock, techno, rap;
>> *prehistoric drawings, Medieval art, impressionism, cgi;
>>
>> ..can you tell what common ground these share, and how to
>> decide which creation is /better/ than the other?.. i doubt
>> it...
>>
>The attempt to convey meaning.
--
Hmmm..depends on the definition of 'meaning' you're using, i
guess...
>If wished, it is possible to break down and analyze their similarities
>and differences, strengths, and weaknesses, et cetera. It can only go
>so far, since they are so different, and to say one is better would wot
>be possible.
--
Exactly.
>With SM anime and mangaon the other hand, it is worlds
>easier.
--
Is it, really? you're comparing two different kinds of art
here, without any guarantee they're trying to convey the
same meaning...
>> >the Amazon Trio. they never succeed,
>> --
>> They successfully accomplish their individual little plans,
>> but can't win the war since it's against the rules of the
>> show..this makes them as competent as about any other
>> villain group in SM.
>>
>Oh? The rules of the show also dictate that the villain always gets to
>see if his victim is the one he is looking for. They do what their
>job's generic purpose is, and their plans for romancing their victims do
>poorly, usually. Besides, the show's rules are so mechanical in format
>that it radically decresases the quality of the story. That and the
>stock footage.
--
For some reason i fail to see how these complaints relate to
AT and their supposed incompetence in doing evil...
>> --
>> Which i find a very villain tactic, actually; to make
>> someone like you [or even love..] when you're going to
>> betray them from the very beginning, is extremely cruel...
>>
>And very poorly done, too. if they were good at it, it would be
>different.
--
One's villainy is directly tied to how good they are at
picking up people?..
>Look at Nephrite, and his suave charm which he used to take
>advantage of others.
--
Now now..please, don't tell me you consider Neph a good
villain... ^^;; i'd rather use him as an example of the
incompetence you've mentioned....
>> --
>> What's so villainous about little Zoi?.. that he eliminated
>> a traitor of the Kingdom, the fact he tried to stab his
>> enemy in the back..or what?...
>>
>His enjoying his nastiness so much,
--
"What day, what month, what year did that happen?"
>and also that he successfully
>collected the Rainbow Crystals,
--
That's merely a proof of his competency, not villainy; and
it's not like his task was that complicated in the first
place, ne?
>and killing Tuxedo Kamen.
--
unintentional, as he was aiming for someone other than the
TokenMale...
>> >><snip StandardSillyVillains>
>> >
>> >I do not know about others, but just because they do it too not ought not to
>> >be reason for SM to be poorly written.
>> --
>> Uhmm.. if this is a common thing in every genre then it
>> means SM isn't 'poorly written', but rather meets the
>> standards...
>>
>I have come across far better foes in those categories that you have
>just mentioned.
--
But the fact you've found something you consider better
still doesn't kick SM out of the 'standard' area...
>> >["what's better" thread]
>> >None of the SM fans is willing to
>> >look with me from my analytical point of view.
>> --
>> Maybe because they realize there's no sense in what you're
>> trying to do?.. You can compare manga to anime, but it'll
>> not bring you any closer to determining which of them is
>> better..
>
>Sure, you can. It depends on the givens you have, and which standards
>that you accept.
--
So you'll know opinion of few people who agree to discuss
this matter with you;[and manage to come up with standards
they all happen to share..] unfortunately, this consensus
will no't be universal and as such, pretty much useless...
Tolaris
who, for what it's worth, liked the manga finale better than
the one in anime...
--
just before he died, he said:
"Nah. She's done this to us before. Its just a blue dragon with an
illusion of four other heads."
Robert Hutchinson
> > No changes "in particular." I'm not familiar enough with the manga to list
> > any. I mean that the changes, whatever they happen to be, resulted in a good
> > anime, IMO.
>
> I see. For starters, by changing Rei, she, instead of not being guy-crazy
> like the rest the senshi except AMi, who is study-crazy, she was made like
> everyone else, and her wanting to be an idol star overlapped with Minako,
> which was good for neither character. In the manga, Minako has a great sense
That was an extremely small part of anime-Rei's personality.
> of responsibility, while in the manga, she is progessively more of a ditz.
ITYM manga/anime. And her sense of responsibility has been pointed out to you
in the past.
> Also from what I have seen, the manga is far more consistent in depicting
> characters. In S, Usagi cries twice, I think, while come SS, she does so in
> spades. Is that an improvement? Also, in the amnga, there was a lot more
> violence and carnage. Unfotunately, most the bite was taken out or the anime
> in part to appeal to younger audience, though there are still some especially
> gory scenes, but by the last couple seasons, the only graphic one that comes
> to mind is SM stabbing Galaxica. Also, in the manga, Chibiusa looked up to
And, of course, violence and carnage = good. *_*
> SM, and admired her, so it was a more mature relationship. After a while,
> petty bickering is not funny anymore. There has to be some progression, but
> instead, when they finally get serious, it just is for a the crisis, and
> then go back to as they were before, learning nothing. Besides, in the
Um, no. We see several examples of Chibiusa admiring and respecting Usagi
in SuperS. The painter episode comes to mind. (If I'm misremembering, a
thousand pardons. Someone remind me how that one ended.)
> previous season, their relationship seemed different then subsequently
> portrayed. Also, in the manga, the plots were tighter, too. Instead of
> being fleshed out in the manga, the plots wound up being diminished.
The anime was never meant to be watched in big chunks in one sitting. Of
course the plot is going to seem less tight; they have a lot more space to
fill.
Robert Hutchinson
Quoth the Raven
<snip>
>> I was introduced to the anime before the manga, and fell in
>> love with it. I also got spoiled. In the anime, when Uranus attacks,
>> we get to see a flash of light *captured* in a clenched fist, see the
>> look on Uranus' face and hear the magnificent Ogata Megumi's voice
>> yell "WORLDOOOOO.... SHAKING!!" Stock footage, yes, but still, you get
>> used to it. And then you see the damage done to the enemy -- actually
>> *see* the damage done.
>>
>
>I have to agree with you here. THe manga panels are often confusing, and
>Uranus's attack was my favorite. Too bad the anime does not often include
>the manga's carnage.
Well, you don't always need blood, or a lot of it. Remember when the
Starlights attacked Galaxia in ep 199, and there was only a few drops
of blood on the ground and a thin trail of blood down her arm? Only a
very small amount, but it made a huge impact. And eps 45 and 46 didn't
contain a single drop of bleed or 'carnage' as such. Doesn't mean they
weren't effective and gutwrenching.
>That, I admire. In the anime, there is none of the senshi who really in not
>guy-crazy except Ami, who is study-crazy. There are a number of girls who
>are not guycrazy, and not only that, by changing Rei's personality to that of
>one wanting to be an idol star, thatstarts to overlap Minako, causing
>problems.
She doesn't want to be an idol star, specifically -- she wants to be
an "international success life". She mentions several ambitions, and
most prominant was "a business woman" or something of the sort. Sure,
in the anime she likes to sing and show off, but I think it's about as
far as it goes.
>> As for the Starlights, I do get annoyed at Naoko when I read the
>> manga. They're no more than "convenience cahracters" in my mind. She
>> needed someone to tell Usagi-tachi that Galaxia was bad, so it was
>> like "Hi. My name's Seiya and I'm in love with Usagi. Hi, I'm Taiki
>> and I'm smart. Hi, I'm Yaten and I'm a smart-alec. We're the
>> Starlights, we're looking for the Princess and we don't trust anyone.
>> Oh, look, there she is. Okay, we'll check out the castles of the
>> Outers -- damn, Galaxia got her first, have to go to the Cauldron now
>> -- oh dear, we're sinking into the river. Oh dear, we appear to be
>> dead." And the poor Princess follows soon after (though at least she
>> does get more attention than in the anime...)
>>
>
>What you say appeals to my negative Starlight sentiment. could the story have
>gotten by without them?
Probably not, but if you're going to give Sailormoon allies, at least
flesh out their personalities at bit more! As it was, it was like
"Okay, Usagi, this is how things are -- ow, I'm dead." It was sheer
laziness on Naoko's part. I find that sloppy storytelling. You say
that the manga's plotline is superior to the anime -- well, that's
your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but I like the anime one
better, and I hate it when the anime is sloppy in it's storytelling
too. So it's not just "because it's the manga" that I'm saying "this
is sloppy". If the anime had done it that way, I would have found it
awfully sloppy too.
>> Now, compared to the anime Starlights, who really *did* spend a long
>> time searching for their Princess and really *did* suffer a lot of
>> heartache and self-doubt along the way, the manga characterization
>> seems simply too trite. And the ending -- Well, 'our' senshi had had
>> their starseeds stolen, and came back, so surely the Starlights were
>> all right too, but Naoko did show it. She couldn't even be bothered to
>> spare one panel for someone to say "It was nice to get to say goodbye
>> to them -- I hope they have good luck on Kinmokusei" or something
>> simple. Nope. (Okay, I'm a Starlights fan, but it did tick me off to
>> see them get shafted like that. It goes both ways too -- I LOATHE the
>> anime Michiru, but the manga one is even occasionally likeable, and
>> believe me, that is a BIG jump up.)
>>
>
>Why do you hate her, so? SHe and Haruka are my favorites. Their philosophy
>echoes mine.
For my full views on the subject, go to
http://www.crosswinds.net/~qtheraven/rant_uranusneptune.html because
it's too long to write up here and would on cause yet ANOTHER long
thread. Mainly I think the difference between the threads and my rant
is that in the threads, their behaviour in S is usually the focus.
Mine concentrates more on the Stars anime.
>> Same for the ones I call the "Minor Major" villians (ie the Generals,
>> the Amazon Trio, Galaxia's Animamates etc). The small bosses who work
>> for the big boss. I liked how the Generals came back occasionally to
>> help Tuxedo Kamen in the manga, but I thought it was a pity there was
>> no relationship between Kunzite and Zoisite. I'm glad the anime did
>> that. It was a little bit of extra depth that the manga couldn't do,
>> because it was packed in around the senshi, and Usagi in particular.
>>
>
>What I loved about the anime Zoisite was that he got to ice some people, and
>collected the Rainbow Crystals succesfully. I know of no other foe so
>effective.
Exactly. Not many others did so well -- except perhaps for Eudial, who
found two Talisman holders, and FishEye, who found the host of
Pegasus. Also Aluminium Siren, who did find a true Star Seed but was
killed before she could tell.
Hi!!!!!
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~qtheraven/rant_uranusneptune.html because
> it's too long to write up here and would on cause yet ANOTHER long
> thread. Mainly I think the difference between the threads and my rant
> is that in the threads, their behaviour in S is usually the focus.
> Mine concentrates more on the Stars anime.
Hmm. . .very well written.
Hi!!!!!
> I see. For starters, by changing Rei, she, instead of not being guy-crazy
> like the rest the senshi except AMi, who is study-crazy, she was made like
> everyone else, and her wanting to be an idol star overlapped with Minako,
> which was good for neither character. In the manga, Minako has a great sense
> of responsibility, while in the manga, she is progessively more of a ditz.
Hmm. . .like it was responsible of Minako to go chase after Mr. Xenotime and put herself and
Artemis in danger, and blowing off the other senshi's protests? She nearly got herself
killed. And to go, "What's wrong with crazy? Cock-a-doddle-doo!". . .umm. . .sure. . .
>
> Also from what I have seen, the manga is far more consistent in depicting
> characters. In S, Usagi cries twice, I think, while come SS, she does so in
> spades. Is that an improvement? Also, in the amnga, there was a lot more
> violence and carnage. Unfotunately, most the bite was taken out or the anime
> in part to appeal to younger audience, though there are still some especially
> gory scenes, but by the last couple seasons, the only graphic one that comes
> to mind is SM stabbing Galaxica. Also, in the manga, Chibiusa looked up to
> SM, and admired her, so it was a more mature relationship. After a while,
> petty bickering is not funny anymore. There has to be some progression, but
> instead, when they finally get serious, it just is for a the crisis, and
> then go back to as they were before, learning nothing. Besides, in the
> previous season, their relationship seemed different then subsequently
> portrayed. Also, in the manga, the plots were tighter, too. Instead of
> being fleshed out in the manga, the plots wound up being diminished.
Well, I would have rather not see Venus's boomerang slicing up Zoisite, or Neherenia shrinking
into a raisin, but OK. . .and, well, Usagi gives up her childishness _too_ fast. After act
one, I swear she immediately becomes the soldier dedicated to saving the universe. I wish
there had been more of a progression. Also, I wouldn't say they didn't learn anything at
all. It's just that their philosophy stays the same. Usagi has obviously learned to keep
herself together, in SuperS too, otherwise how could she have defeated Neherenia? She became
a better soldier, although I think at heart she still wanted to be a normal girl.
Also, in the manga, I have a tiny sense that Usagi's more selfish in there. In the Silver
Millennium and in the present, rather than facing the situation she grabs a sword and kills
herself, stranding the other senshi. In the anime, she says she believes in the world that
everybody tried to protect, although everybody's dead and gone. In the manga Stars, she says
since her friends and loved ones are all gone, there's nothing to fight for. She doesn't care
for her responsibility, it seems. In the anime, she didn't fight _ONLY_ because she saw the
good left in somebody. Metallia and Wiseman and Pharoh 90 were incarnations of evil, so she
killed them, but she _knew_ Neherenia and Galaxia started out as good, and she ended up
healing them and freeing them, which I personally think much preferable to killing them.
Let me make it clear I DO like the manga, otherwise I wouldn't have all 18 volumes. But I
don't think it's right to bash the anime. . .I like both!
noit...@hotmail.com
> >> How is it more subjective than 'quality of
art/music/
> >> plot'?.. I'd say they're on the same
level..not that it
> >> matters any, really.
> >>
> >There is a definite distinction, I think, and
not a few would agree with
> >me. The thing is, there are not too many that
follow SM, methinks.
> >There are are levels of literary greatness,
because writting is a skill.
> --
> Despite the fact there may indeed be many who'd
agree with
> you, i'll cheerfully disagree; ^^ The writing
skill is
> typically determined by the writer's ability to
both avoid
> common errors, and excite their readers...now,
what is
> considered an error depends strictly on the
tastes of the
> public...and so does the excitement the story
may invoke...
>
> >> >> Uhmm..there's no universal definition of
'better' story..
> >[..]
> >> >
> >> >There must be some common ground. There is
in art, remarkably. [..]
> >> --
> >> *japanese music, classical music, rock,
techno, rap;
> >> *prehistoric drawings, Medieval art,
impressionism, cgi;
> >>
> >> ..can you tell what common ground these
share, and how to
> >> decide which creation is /better/ than the
other?.. i doubt
> >> it...
> >>
> >The attempt to convey meaning.
> --
> Hmmm..depends on the definition of 'meaning'
you're using, i
> guess...
>
Indeed. Remember that humans all have within us an innate desire to
perceive order. We try to make sense out of everything. If we cannot
find any order at all, we will go insane. Did you know that there
apparently is such a thing as a visually appealing builing? A story
also has structure. I think there is also such a thing as a
structurally appealing story as well.
> >If wished, it is possible to break down and
analyze their similarities
> >and differences, strengths, and weaknesses, et
cetera. It can only go
> >so far, since they are so different, and to say
one is better would wot
> >be possible.
> --
> Exactly.
>
> >With SM anime and mangaon the other hand, it is
worlds
> >easier.
> --
> Is it, really? you're comparing two different
kinds of art
> here, without any guarantee they're trying to
convey the
> same meaning...
>
Well, they are variations of the same story, here. SHould not count for
something? The visual art I will try to leave out of this, as the anime
chose not go the way of the dreamily-drawn manga. That decreases some
of their similarities right there, as art influences the mood of the
story, but they are still quite comparable, specifically focusing on the
story structure, dialog, and types of humorous incidents used.
They undermine the viewer's respect and/or fear of them. With Zoisite,
for instance, there was, but not these guys. They also wasted a lot of
time and energy trying to seduce their victims when they ought to have
just done their job and not beat around the bush.
> >> --
> >> Which i find a very villain tactic, actually;
to make
> >> someone like you [or even love..] when you're
going to
> >> betray them from the very beginning, is
extremely cruel...
> >>
> >And very poorly done, too. if they were good at
it, it would be
> >different.
> --
> One's villainy is directly tied to how good they
are at
> picking up people?..
>
No, it is tied to how effective they are at doing their nastiness. In
this case, picking people up. They kept making mistakes. If a villain
keeps failing, they become some kind of bad joke. That they became.
> >Look at Nephrite, and his suave charm which he
used to take
> >advantage of others.
> --
> Now now..please, don't tell me you consider Neph
a good
> villain... ^^;; i'd rather use him as an example
of the
> incompetence you've mentioned....
>
Hm. It was rather dumb about him and Naru at the end, and I thought
that it was pretty stupid, but before that, he did not do that bad. He
even found Sm's identity on the first try. Look at how smoothly he
maneuvers his way around to place those marks on the items of his
victims. Very classy, all the while pretending to be a philanthropist,
and doing a mighty convincing act too, I might add. Maybe not the
nastiest, but he may have done his villainy in the cruelest of fashions.
> >> --
> >> What's so villainous about little Zoi?.. that
he eliminated
> >> a traitor of the Kingdom, the fact he tried
to stab his
> >> enemy in the back..or what?...
> >>
> >His enjoying his nastiness so much,
> --
> "What day, what month, what year did that
happen?"
>
All those annoying laughs and smiles.
> >and also that he successfully
> >collected the Rainbow Crystals,
> --
> That's merely a proof of his competency, not
villainy; and
> it's not like his task was that complicated in
the first
> place, ne?
>
True, but neither were Nephrite's and Jadeite's energy-harvesting
missions.
> >and killing Tuxedo Kamen.
> --
> unintentional, as he was aiming for someone
other than the
> TokenMale...
>
Not a bad failure. He was trying to kill him earlier, and was not sorry
afterwards, though Beryl made him later.
> >> >><snip StandardSillyVillains>
> >> >
> >> >I do not know about others, but just because
they do it too not ought not to
> >> >be reason for SM to be poorly written.
> >> --
> >> Uhmm.. if this is a common thing in every
genre then it
> >> means SM isn't 'poorly written', but rather
meets the
> >> standards...
> >>
> >I have come across far better foes in those
categories that you have
> >just mentioned.
> --
> But the fact you've found something you consider
better
> still doesn't kick SM out of the 'standard'
area...
>
Indeed. And being writeen better would not kick SM out of the
"standard" area, either.
> >> >["what's better" thread]
> >> >None of the SM fans is willing to
> >> >look with me from my analytical point of
view.
> >> --
> >> Maybe because they realize there's no sense
in what you're
> >> trying to do?.. You can compare manga to
anime, but it'll
> >> not bring you any closer to determining which
of them is
> >> better..
> >
> >Sure, you can. It depends on the givens you
have, and which standards
> >that you accept.
> --
> So you'll know opinion of few people who agree
to discuss
> this matter with you;[and manage to come up with
standards
> they all happen to share..] unfortunately, this
consensus
> will no't be universal and as such, pretty much
useless...
>
It is a start. Imean, I see Newsgroup as a place for me to bounce my
ideas off others, and such.
noit...@hotmail.com
> > > No changes "in particular." I'm not familiar enough with the manga to list
> > > any. I mean that the changes, whatever they happen to be, resulted in a good
> > > anime, IMO.
> >
> > like the rest the senshi except AMi, who is study-crazy, she was made like
> > everyone else, and her wanting to be an idol star overlapped with Minako,
> > which was good for neither character. In the manga, Minako has a great sense
>
>
True. She was an ambitious, career-oriented person. A bit pushy, and was
really over-the-top in trying to snag Mamo-chan, displaying how far she can
go.
> > of responsibility, while in the manga, she is progessively more of a ditz.
>
> ITYM manga/anime. And her sense of responsibility has been pointed out to you
> in the past.
>
That there have been attempts to cushion her ditziness? Yes... It is no
where near enough in the face of so much ditzy depiction.
> > Also from what I have seen, the manga is far more consistent in depicting
> > characters. In S, Usagi cries twice, I think, while come SS, she does so in
> > spades. Is that an improvement? Also, in the amnga, there was a lot more
> > violence and carnage. Unfotunately, most the bite was taken out or the anime
> > in part to appeal to younger audience, though there are still some especially
> > gory scenes, but by the last couple seasons, the only graphic one that comes
> > to mind is SM stabbing Galaxica. Also, in the manga, Chibiusa looked up to
>
> And, of course, violence and carnage = good. *_*
>
In the process of telling a story that involves fighting, it usually is.
Whether it is right for a certain age group is a moot point. It it good for
the story?
> > SM, and admired her, so it was a more mature relationship. After a while,
> > petty bickering is not funny anymore. There has to be some progression, but
> > instead, when they finally get serious, it just is for a the crisis, and
> > then go back to as they were before, learning nothing. Besides, in the
>
> Um, no. We see several examples of Chibiusa admiring and respecting Usagi
> in SuperS. The painter episode comes to mind. (If I'm misremembering, a
> thousand pardons. Someone remind me how that one ended.)
>
What scene in it are you thinking of? Anyways, twenty barbs to one
admiration does not really mean that she particularly looks up to her. It
only means she does not always barb her, and is on rare occasion impressed.
> > previous season, their relationship seemed different then subsequently
> > portrayed. Also, in the manga, the plots were tighter, too. Instead of
> > being fleshed out in the manga, the plots wound up being diminished.
>
> The anime was never meant to be watched in big chunks in one sitting. Of
> course the plot is going to seem less tight; they have a lot more space to
> fill.
>
I saw big chunks of S, and I had no problems then and none later with Stars
also, so I do think think that with SS, they really were just filling
episodes on end, largely.
noit...@hotmail.com
> >> I was introduced to the anime before the manga, and fell in
> >> love with it. I also got spoiled. In the anime, when Uranus attacks,
> >> we get to see a flash of light *captured* in a clenched fist, see the
> >> look on Uranus' face and hear the magnificent Ogata Megumi's voice
> >> yell "WORLDOOOOO.... SHAKING!!" Stock footage, yes, but still, you get
> >> used to it. And then you see the damage done to the enemy -- actually
> >> *see* the damage done.
> >>
> >
> >I have to agree with you here. THe manga panels are often confusing, and
> >Uranus's attack was my favorite. Too bad the anime does not often include
> >the manga's carnage.
>
> Well, you don't always need blood, or a lot of it. Remember when the
> Starlights attacked Galaxia in ep 199, and there was only a few drops
> of blood on the ground and a thin trail of blood down her arm? Only a
> very small amount, but it made a huge impact. And eps 45 and 46 didn't
> contain a single drop of bleed or 'carnage' as such. Doesn't mean they
> weren't effective and gutwrenching.
>
Good point. THat kind of stuff would suffice. Hotaru swallowing Chibiusa's
heart crystal was good, too.
> >That, I admire. In the anime, there is none of the senshi who really in not
> >guy-crazy except Ami, who is study-crazy. There are a number of girls who
> >are not guycrazy, and not only that, by changing Rei's personality to that of
> >one wanting to be an idol star, thatstarts to overlap Minako, causing
> >problems.
>
> She doesn't want to be an idol star, specifically -- she wants to be
> an "international success life". She mentions several ambitions, and
> most prominant was "a business woman" or something of the sort. Sure,
> in the anime she likes to sing and show off, but I think it's about as
> far as it goes.
>
True.
> >> As for the Starlights, I do get annoyed at Naoko when I read the
> >> manga. They're no more than "convenience cahracters" in my mind. She
> >> needed someone to tell Usagi-tachi that Galaxia was bad, so it was
> >> like "Hi. My name's Seiya and I'm in love with Usagi. Hi, I'm Taiki
> >> and I'm smart. Hi, I'm Yaten and I'm a smart-alec. We're the
> >> Starlights, we're looking for the Princess and we don't trust anyone.
> >> Oh, look, there she is. Okay, we'll check out the castles of the
> >> Outers -- damn, Galaxia got her first, have to go to the Cauldron now
> >> -- oh dear, we're sinking into the river. Oh dear, we appear to be
> >> dead." And the poor Princess follows soon after (though at least she
> >> does get more attention than in the anime...)
> >>
> >
> >What you say appeals to my negative Starlight sentiment. could the story have
> >gotten by without them?
>
> Probably not, but if you're going to give Sailormoon allies, at least
> flesh out their personalities at bit more! As it was, it was like
> "Okay, Usagi, this is how things are -- ow, I'm dead." It was sheer
> laziness on Naoko's part. I find that sloppy storytelling.
Maybe it is. I have not seen it. See any sloppy storytelling in the anime?
You say
> that the manga's plotline is superior to the anime -- well, that's
> your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but I like the anime one
> better, and I hate it when the anime is sloppy in it's storytelling
> too. So it's not just "because it's the manga" that I'm saying "this
> is sloppy". If the anime had done it that way, I would have found it
> awfully sloppy too.
>
WIth you, my friend, think we have something in common. We may disagree on
some stuff, but can find some common ground.
Well, Fish Eye and Aluminum Siren came across their discoveries more or less
by accident. Still, they succeeded where not many have.
Zoe Tsukino
>
> Also, in the manga, I have a tiny sense that Usagi's more selfish in there. In the Silver
> Millennium and in the present, rather than facing the situation she grabs a sword and kills
> herself, stranding the other senshi.
I'd say that makes her more human to me than the anime Usagi. She had
been in depression for over a month, and when Mamoru comes back to her
he tries to kill her. After killing him it was inevitable. Would you
have been able to think logically in such a position?
And it's not like she could have done much in the Silver Millenium to
help anything. She didn't have the ginzuishou, and she wasn't a senshi.
There was no sign of her showing any offensive powers outside of that.
> In the manga Stars, she says
> since her friends and loved ones are all gone, there's nothing to fight for. She doesn't care
> for her responsibility, it seems.
Don't forget she told the two senshi to kill her because she thought it
would end the war ("[to end wars] is the mission of a sailor soldier").
That doesn't seem selfish to me.
> In the anime, she didn't fight _ONLY_ because she saw the
> good left in somebody. Metallia and Wiseman and Pharoh 90 were incarnations of evil, so she
> killed them, but she _knew_ Neherenia and Galaxia started out as good, and she ended up
> healing them and freeing them, which I personally think much preferable to killing them.
Nephelenia was never good in the manga, and she tries to get Galaxia to
stop fighting. When Galaxia is hit, Usagi helps her.
At first she realizes that she only fought for those she love, but she
does realize that future is more important.
If you want to call somebody selfish then it's Sailor Cosmos. She tried
to convince Usagi that there was nothing else to fight for and that the
cauldron should be destroyed (therefore destroying the universe).
--
Michi-chan
Robert Hutchinson
<snip>
> > > of responsibility, while in the manga, she is progessively more of a ditz.
> >
> > ITYM manga/anime. And her sense of responsibility has been pointed out to you
> > in the past.
>
> That there have been attempts to cushion her ditziness? Yes... It is no
> where near enough in the face of so much ditzy depiction.
Not cushioned; explained.
> > > Also from what I have seen, the manga is far more consistent in depicting
> > > characters. In S, Usagi cries twice, I think, while come SS, she does so in
> > > spades. Is that an improvement? Also, in the amnga, there was a lot more
> > > violence and carnage. Unfotunately, most the bite was taken out or the anime
> > > in part to appeal to younger audience, though there are still some especially
> > > gory scenes, but by the last couple seasons, the only graphic one that comes
> > > to mind is SM stabbing Galaxica. Also, in the manga, Chibiusa looked up to
> >
> > And, of course, violence and carnage = good. *_*
>
> In the process of telling a story that involves fighting, it usually is.
I'd change "usually" to "sometimes."
> Whether it is right for a certain age group is a moot point. It it good for
> the story?
Well, see, that's what drew my reaction. You seemed to be saying "violence
makes the manga better," period. I saw little justification.
> > > SM, and admired her, so it was a more mature relationship. After a while,
> > > petty bickering is not funny anymore. There has to be some progression, but
> > > instead, when they finally get serious, it just is for a the crisis, and
> > > then go back to as they were before, learning nothing. Besides, in the
> >
> > Um, no. We see several examples of Chibiusa admiring and respecting Usagi
> > in SuperS. The painter episode comes to mind. (If I'm misremembering, a
> > thousand pardons. Someone remind me how that one ended.)
>
> What scene in it are you thinking of? Anyways, twenty barbs to one
> admiration does not really mean that she particularly looks up to her. It
> only means she does not always barb her, and is on rare occasion impressed.
You seem to feel that the two behaviors must be mutually exclusive. However
(and this is something I will fault the anime for), Usagi's behavior in SuperS
often *warranted* criticism from Chibiusa.
> > > previous season, their relationship seemed different then subsequently
> > > portrayed. Also, in the manga, the plots were tighter, too. Instead of
> > > being fleshed out in the manga, the plots wound up being diminished.
> >
> > The anime was never meant to be watched in big chunks in one sitting. Of
> > course the plot is going to seem less tight; they have a lot more space to
> > fill.
>
> I saw big chunks of S, and I had no problems then and none later with Stars
> also, so I do think think that with SS, they really were just filling
> episodes on end, largely.
How many plots are you talking about? First, you say "the plots were tighter,"
then you only list one anime plot that wasn't, compared to two you didn't
seem to have a problem with in that regard.
Robert Hutchinson
Michi-chan
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now I'm going to get spam... ;_;
> > In the anime, she didn't fight _ONLY_ because she saw the
> > good left in somebody. Metallia and Wiseman and Pharoh 90 were incarnations of evil, so she
> > killed them, but she _knew_ Neherenia and Galaxia started out as good, and she ended up
> > healing them and freeing them, which I personally think much preferable to killing them.
>
> Nephelenia was never good in the manga,
Whoops, got her mixed up with Zirconia. Still, there's never any
indication in the manga that Nephelenia was ever good.
--
Michi-chan
who can't believe she posted under the other account ;_;
Tolaris
>> --
>> Despite the fact there may indeed be many who'dagree with
>> you, i'll cheerfully disagree; ^^ The writing skill is
>> typically determined by the writer's ability to both avoid
>> common errors, and excite their readers...now, what is
>> considered an error depends strictly on the tastes of the
>> public...and so does the excitement the story may invoke...
>>
>Popularity and greatness are not entirely interchangeable, however.
--
Neither are conformity and popularity, if we're at it...
><common ground for all the art>
>> >>
>> >The attempt to convey meaning.
>> --
>> Hmmm..depends on the definition of 'meaning' you're using, i
>> guess...
>>
>Indeed. Remember that humans all have within us an innate desire to
>perceive order. We try to make sense out of everything. If we cannot
>find any order at all, we will go insane. Did you know that there
>apparently is such a thing as a visually appealing builing?
--
The study of Greek architecture was a part of my classes,
yes.
>A story
>also has structure. I think there is also such a thing as a
>structurally appealing story as well.
--
Is it what you see as 'meaning', then?.. to be appealing to
the 'target base' of your art?...
><sm anime and manga>
>> --
>> Is it, really? you're comparing two different kinds of art
>> here, without any guarantee they're trying to convey the
>> same meaning...
>>
>Well, they are variations of the same story, here. SHould not count for
>something?
--
That's not saying much, considering all stories in the world
are just variations of less than a dozen storylines...
>The visual art I will try to leave out of this, as the anime
>chose not go the way of the dreamily-drawn manga. That decreases some
>of their similarities right there, as art influences the mood of the
>story, but they are still quite comparable, specifically focusing on the
>story structure, dialog, and types of humorous incidents used.
--
But in your posts you're able to list much more differences
between these two, than the similarities you mention here...
-.^
><AT, poor villains?>
>> >Besides, the show's rules are so mechanical in format
>> >that it radically decresases the quality of the story. That and the
>> >stock footage.
>> --
>> For some reason i fail to see how these complaints relate to
>> AT and their supposed incompetence in doing evil...
>>
>They undermine the viewer's respect and/or fear of them.
--
I meant specifically the mechanical rules of the show and
the stock footage; it just looked as if you ran out of
arguments against the AT, and had to resort to listing more
general complaints...
>With Zoisite,
>for instance, there was, but not these guys. They also wasted a lot of
>time and energy trying to seduce their victims when they ought to have
>just done their job and not beat around the bush.
--
Uhmm so first you complain they aren't villainous enough...
and then when i point out their tactics /were/ evil, you
change your mind full 18o degree and complain they were
'wasting time' on evil activities?.. ok...
>> One's villainy is directly tied to how good they are at
>> picking up people?..
>>
>No, it is tied to how effective they are at doing their nastiness. In
>this case, picking people up. They kept making mistakes.
--
I can hear the mob of angry FishEye fans right behind the
corner...
>If a villain
>keeps failing, they become some kind of bad joke. That they became.
--
But seeing how they always had their victims neatly tied up
to the rack eventually..i'd say it's them who had the last
laugh...
>> Now now..please, don't tell me you consider Neph a good
>> villain... ^^;; i'd rather use him as an example of the
>> incompetence you've mentioned....
>>
>Hm. It was rather dumb about him and Naru at the end, and I thought
>that it was pretty stupid, but before that, he did not do that bad.
--
Oh, no.. he just screwed up every single assignment he had,
didn't have guts to face Beryl after his numerous fails,
survived a confrontation with the senshi only thanks to a
teenage girl..and in the end stole other general's task in
pathetic attempt to save his derriere....which was extremely
stupid thing on its own, i might add...
>> >> --
>> >> What's so villainous about little Zoi?.. that he eliminated
>> >> a traitor of the Kingdom, the fact he tried to stab his
>> >> enemy in the back..or what?...
>> >>
>> >His enjoying his nastiness so much,
>> --
>> "What day, what month, what year did that happen?"
>>
>All those annoying laughs and smiles.
--
Well, personally, i didn't find his laughs annoying.. and
more the sign of the cockiness than anything else..I guess
it's up to individual interpretation, though...
>> >and killing Tuxedo Kamen.
>> --
>> unintentional, as he was aiming for someone other than the
>> TokenMale...
>>
>Not a bad failure.
--
Considering the consequences, i'd say it was a grave error
on his part... :P
>> >> >><snip StandardSillyVillains>
>> >>
>> >I have come across far better foes in those categories that you have
>> >just mentioned.
>> --
>> But the fact you've found something you consider better
>> still doesn't kick SM out of the 'standard' area...
>>
>Indeed. And being writeen better would not kick SM out of the
>"standard" area, either.
--
ohh? o.ô i'm afraid i don't follow your train of thoughts
here..so if something is written better than the 'standard',
it still isn't even slightly better than the said 'standard'
works?...
>It is a start. Imean, I see Newsgroup as a place for me to bounce my
>ideas off others, and such.
--
Hopefully they don't have too sharp edges, then...
Tolaris
...
--
mooniecode[1.12o5] <http://www.geocities.com/tokyo/towers/7933/mooniecode.txt>
SM:5+ F:vM9+[+]Sf+:pSCl D:sNe-Ta-:vEs X:***:a197s|1d:m31s
O:?d+:s[+]:o:a[+]:h+[+]:x P:a25:s6:w:f[+]:eGrBGz:hBrD:t[-]:cWh:bB+:*Li:yH?:r+|-
noit...@hotmail.com
> >> Despite the fact there may indeed be many who'dagree with
> >> you, i'll cheerfully disagree; ^^ The writing skill is
> >> typically determined by the writer's ability to both avoid
> >> common errors, and excite their readers...now, what is
> >> considered an error depends strictly on the tastes of the
> >> public...and so does the excitement the story may invoke...
> >>
> >Popularity and greatness are not entirely interchangeable, however.
> --
> Neither are conformity and popularity, if we're at it...
>
> ><common ground for all the art>
> >> >>
> >> >The attempt to convey meaning.
> >> --
> >> Hmmm..depends on the definition of 'meaning' you're using, i
> >> guess...
> >>
> >Indeed. Remember that humans all have within us an innate desire to
> >perceive order. We try to make sense out of everything. If we
cannot
> >find any order at all, we will go insane. Did you know that there
> >apparently is such a thing as a visually appealing building?
> --
> The study of Greek architecture was a part of my classes,
> yes.
>
> >A story
> >also has structure. I think there is also such a thing as a
> >structurally appealing story as well.
> --
> Is it what you see as 'meaning', then?.. to be appealing to
> the 'target base' of your art?...
>
No, that the logic of the story and it designmake sense, and that
ideally there are no plot flaws. No places where we have to chalk up
events to the stupidity of the characters.
> ><sm anime and manga>
> >> --
> >> Is it, really? you're comparing two different kinds of art
> >> here, without any guarantee they're trying to convey the
> >> same meaning...
> >>
> >Well, they are variations of the same story, here. SHould not count
for
> >something?
> --
> That's not saying much, considering all stories in the world
> are just variations of less than a dozen storylines...
>
I do not know about that.
> >The visual art I will try to leave out of this, as the anime
> >chose not go the way of the dreamily-drawn manga. That decreases
some
> >of their similarities right there, as art influences the mood of the
> >story, but they are still quite comparable, specifically focusing on
the
> >story structure, dialog, and types of humorous incidents used.
> --
> But in your posts you're able to list much more differences
> between these two, than the similarities you mention here...
> -.^
>
Because I was focusing on them, of course! I could go into their
similarities if you disbelieve me, of course.
> ><AT, poor villains?>
> >> >Besides, the show's rules are so mechanical in format
> >> >that it radically decresases the quality of the story. That and
the
> >> >stock footage.
> >> --
> >> For some reason i fail to see how these complaints relate to
> >> AT and their supposed incompetence in doing evil...
> >>
> >They undermine the viewer's respect and/or fear of them.
> --
> I meant specifically the mechanical rules of the show and
> the stock footage; it just looked as if you ran out of
> arguments against the AT, and had to resort to listing more
> general complaints...
>
Because the AT are jusyt sterling examples of what is wrong with SM
villains, and naturally, being such sterling examples, they overlap the
general complaints.
> >With Zoisite,
> >for instance, there was, but not these guys. They also wasted a lot
of
> >time and energy trying to seduce their victims when they ought to
have
> >just done their job and not beat around the bush.
> --
> Uhmm so first you complain they aren't villainous enough...
> and then when i point out their tactics /were/ evil, you
> change your mind full 18o degree and complain they were
> 'wasting time' on evil activities?.. ok...
>
It was evil, but in an incompetent, and oftentimes, in a less-then-evil
way.
> >> One's villainy is directly tied to how good they are at
> >> picking up people?..
> >>
> >No, it is tied to how effective they are at doing their nastiness.
In
> >this case, picking people up. They kept making mistakes.
> --
> I can hear the mob of angry FishEye fans right behind the
> corner...
>
WHy? His overtures towards that little boy and Mamochan were not
conquests to write home about, were they? If I recall right, those were
his last two attempts.
> >If a villain
> >keeps failing, they become some kind of bad joke. That they became.
> --
> But seeing how they always had their victims neatly tied up
> to the rack eventually..i'd say it's them who had the last
> laugh...
>
After falling flat on their faces or being found out, motivating them to
get serious. It was usaully not at the peak of their deception, now was
it?
> >> Now now..please, don't tell me you consider Neph a good
> >> villain... ^^;; i'd rather use him as an example of the
> >> incompetence you've mentioned....
> >>
> >Hm. It was rather dumb about him and Naru at the end, and I thought
> >that it was pretty stupid, but before that, he did not do that bad.
> --
> Oh, no.. he just screwed up every single assignment he had,
You mean his method of gathering energy did not work? I agree.
> didn't have guts to face Beryl after his numerous failures,
Hey, is not being a coward on some level associated with evil henchmen?
I cannot admire it, but that does not necessarily make him a bad
villain. He knew he was in trouble, unlike Zoisite, who had the guts
after disobeying her, and got struck down.
> survived a confrontation with the senshi only thanks to a
> teenage girl..and in the end stole other general's task in
> pathetic attempt to save his derriere....
He did get the crystal that Zoisite used to complete his task. Thatwas
not too pathetic. A lot of what you are complaining about in Nephrite
demonstrates a warped individual with a bit of a yellow streak, though
he is not incapable of physical bravery. A little yellow streak can
be quite quite becoming to a villain.
which was extremely
> stupid thing on its own, i might add...
>
AH, but you forget...his method of messing up his victims... No one did
it more horribly, turning them into perversions of their kind, caring
personalities. That made me enjoy that particular arc because I enjoyed
seeing them get twisted so. It was actually interesting.
> >> >> --
> >> >> What's so villainous about little Zoi?.. that he eliminated
> >> >> a traitor of the Kingdom, the fact he tried to stab his
> >> >> enemy in the back..or what?...
> >> >>
> >> >His enjoying his nastiness so much,
> >> --
> >> "What day, what month, what year did that happen?"
> >>
> >All those annoying laughs and smiles.
> --
> Well, personally, i didn't find his laughs annoying.. and
> more the sign of the cockiness than anything else..I guess
> it's up to individual interpretation, though...
>
Hm.
> >> >and killing Tuxedo Kamen.
> >> --
> >> unintentional, as he was aiming for someone other than the
> >> TokenMale...
> >>
> >Not a bad failure.
> --
> Considering the consequences, i'd say it was a grave error
> on his part... :P
>
Oh, it was, but he had the right idea in killing him. It was just
unappreciated.
> >> >> >><snip StandardSillyVillains>
> >> >>
> >> >I have come across far better foes in those categories that you
have
> >> >just mentioned.
> >> --
> >> But the fact you've found something you consider better
> >> still doesn't kick SM out of the 'standard' area...
> >>
> >Indeed. And being writeen better would not kick SM out of the
> >"standard" area, either.
> --
> ohh? o.ô i'm afraid i don't follow your train of thoughts
> here..so if something is written better than the 'standard',
> it still isn't even slightly better than the said 'standard'
> works?...
>
SM's being written better would not mean it would change genres, I mean.
I am trying to say that if a genre has generally poor writting,
comparingone of the genre's members to the curve would be a poor
standard. If it is better then the rest in the genre, it might still be
bad.
> >It is a start. Imean, I see Newsgroup as a place for me to bounce my
> >ideas off others, and such.
> --
> Hopefully they don't have too sharp edges, then...
>
I do notthrow knives, though they sometimes have that effect.
noit...@hotmail.com
Robert Hutchinson <ser...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > > of responsibility, while in the manga, she is progessively more of a ditz.
> > >
> > > ITYM manga/anime. And her sense of responsibility has been pointed out to you
> > > in the past.
> >
> > That there have been attempts to cushion her ditziness? Yes... It is no
> > where near enough in the face of so much ditzy depiction.
>
> Not cushioned; explained.
>
Sure, there is an explanation: Lacksadaical writting. SHe is an endearing
ditz, yes, but that is beside the point.
> > > > Also from what I have seen, the manga is far more consistent in depicting
> > > > characters. In S, Usagi cries twice, I think, while come SS, she does so in
> > > > spades. Is that an improvement? Also, in the amnga, there was a lot more
> > > > violence and carnage. Unfotunately, most the bite was taken out or the anime
> > > > in part to appeal to younger audience, though there are still some especially
> > > > gory scenes, but by the last couple seasons, the only graphic one that comes
> > > > to mind is SM stabbing Galaxica. Also, in the manga, Chibiusa looked up to
> > >
> > > And, of course, violence and carnage = good. *_*
> >
> > In the process of telling a story that involves fighting, it usually is.
>
> I'd change "usually" to "sometimes."
>
Fair enough.
> > Whether it is right for a certain age group is a moot point. It it good for
> > the story?
>
> Well, see, that's what drew my reaction. You seemed to be saying "violence
> makes the manga better," period. I saw little justification.
>
It has been my general experience, let me put it that way. Senseless
violence I do not care for. In SM, that is far from the case.
> > > > SM, and admired her, so it was a more mature relationship. After a while,
> > > > petty bickering is not funny anymore. There has to be some progression, but
> > > > instead, when they finally get serious, it just is for a the crisis, and
> > > > then go back to as they were before, learning nothing. Besides, in the
> > >
> > > Um, no. We see several examples of Chibiusa admiring and respecting Usagi
> > > in SuperS. The painter episode comes to mind. (If I'm misremembering, a
> > > thousand pardons. Someone remind me how that one ended.)
> >
> > What scene in it are you thinking of? Anyways, twenty barbs to one
> > admiration does not really mean that she particularly looks up to her. It
> > only means she does not always barb her, and is on rare occasion impressed.
>
> You seem to feel that the two behaviors must be mutually exclusive.
Barbing and admiration? Nay; it just leaves a very, very grave imalance
that is so extreme that it is hard to swallow.
However
> (and this is something I will fault the anime for), Usagi's behavior in SuperS
> often *warranted* criticism from Chibiusa.
>
It sure is, but that makes moments where she briefly looks up to her in
crisis all the harder to swallow, especially when Usagi has behaved far below
her own standards in S. It just undermines her credibility.
> > > > previous season, their relationship seemed different then subsequently
> > > > portrayed. Also, in the manga, the plots were tighter, too. Instead of
> > > > being fleshed out in the manga, the plots wound up being diminished.
> > >
> > > The anime was never meant to be watched in big chunks in one sitting. Of
> > > course the plot is going to seem less tight; they have a lot more space to
> > > fill.
> >
> > I saw big chunks of S, and I had no problems then and none later with Stars
> > also, so I do think think that with SS, they really were just filling
> > episodes on end, largely.
>
> How many plots are you talking about?
Basically the whole season of SS.
First, you say "the plots were tighter,"
> then you only list one anime plot that wasn't, compared to two you didn't
> seem to have a problem with in that regard.
>
I think so; the other anime plots and the manga were fine in that regard.
noit...@hotmail.com
shu...@concentric.net wrote:
> > <snip>
>
> > I see. For starters, by changing Rei, she, instead of not being guy-crazy
> > like the rest the senshi except AMi, who is study-crazy, she was made like
> > everyone else, and her wanting to be an idol star overlapped with Minako,
> > which was good for neither character. In the manga, Minako has a great sense
>
> Artemis in danger, and blowing off the other senshi's protests? She nearly got herself
> killed. And to go, "What's wrong with crazy? Cock-a-doddle-doo!". . .umm. . .sure. . .
>
In the manga? That does sound serious, but I have not read it, so I cannot
pass judgment on it.
> >
> > Also from what I have seen, the manga is far more consistent in depicting
> > characters. In S, Usagi cries twice, I think, while come SS, she does so in
> > spades. Is that an improvement? Also, in the amnga, there was a lot more
> > violence and carnage. Unfotunately, most the bite was taken out or the anime
> > in part to appeal to younger audience, though there are still some especially
> > gory scenes, but by the last couple seasons, the only graphic one that comes
> > to mind is SM stabbing Galaxica. Also, in the manga, Chibiusa looked up to
> > SM, and admired her, so it was a more mature relationship. After a while,
> > petty bickering is not funny anymore. There has to be some progression, but
> > instead, when they finally get serious, it just is for a the crisis, and
> > then go back to as they were before, learning nothing. Besides, in the
> > previous season, their relationship seemed different then subsequently
> > portrayed. Also, in the manga, the plots were tighter, too. Instead of
> > being fleshed out in the manga, the plots wound up being diminished.
>
> Well, I would have rather not see Venus's boomerang slicing up Zoisite, or Neherenia shrinking
> into a raisin, but OK. . .and, well, Usagi gives up her childishness _too_ fast.
I can agree with you there, my friend. When not fighting, being clumsy and
ditzish is part of what she is. SHe is not Batman, who is only pretending to
be a playboy. It is just in crisis, that part of her character is not
showing.
After act
> one, I swear she immediately becomes the soldier dedicated to saving the universe. I wish
> there had been more of a progression.
As do I. That is a flaw in the manga, most definitely. In the anime, the
flaw is the other extreme.
Also, I wouldn't say they didn't learn anything at
> all. It's just that their philosophy stays the same. Usagi has obviously learned to keep
> herself together, in SuperS too, otherwise how could she have defeated Neherenia? She became
> a better soldier, although I think at heart she still wanted to be a normal girl.
>
I can buy that last part in both the manga and anime. In the previous season
in the anime, I could say she had learned to hold herself together, but not
in SS. That differential is what galls me to no end. The manga has flaws
indeed, but in the anime, it is shamelessly inconsitent.
> Also, in the manga, I have a tiny sense that Usagi's more selfish in there. In the Silver
> Millennium and in the present, rather than facing the situation she grabs a sword and kills
> herself, stranding the other senshi.
In the anime, for whatever reason, it doubt it would ever cross her mind.
THat might not be from less selfishness from her counterpart, but perhaps you
are right. Suicide is inherently selfish. It was also a moment of weakness,
though. I also the think maybe the manga Usagi was a bit more emotional,
too, when it came too loved ones. More likely, they just have slightly
differing personalities and intelligencee, so that is too close to call.
In the anime, she says she believes in the world that
> everybody tried to protect, although everybody's dead and gone. In the manga Stars, she says
> since her friends and loved ones are all gone, there's nothing to fight for. She doesn't care
> for her responsibility, it seems. In the anime, she didn't fight _ONLY_ because she saw the
> good left in somebody. Metallia and Wiseman and Pharoh 90 were incarnations of evil, so she
> killed them, but she _knew_ Neherenia and Galaxia started out as good, and she ended up
> healing them and freeing them, which I personally think much preferable to killing them.
>
IN a sense, yes. Sure, the heroine always wis, but based on what she knew
and did not know, that is impractical, I am afraid.
> Let me make it clear I DO like the manga, otherwise I wouldn't have all 18 volumes. But I
> don't think it's right to bash the anime. . .I like both!
>
noit...@hotmail.com
volumes. But I
> don't think it's right to bash the anime. . .I like both!
>
No problem with that.
noit...@hotmail.com
> > Also, in the manga, I have a tiny sense that Usagi's more selfish in there. In the Silver
> > Millennium and in the present, rather than facing the situation she grabs a sword and kills
> > herself, stranding the other senshi.
>
> been in depression for over a month, and when Mamoru comes back to her
> he tries to kill her. After killing him it was inevitable. Would you
> have been able to think logically in such a position?
>
> And it's not like she could have done much in the Silver Millenium to
> help anything. She didn't have the ginzuishou, and she wasn't a senshi.
> There was no sign of her showing any offensive powers outside of that.
>
> > In the manga Stars, she says
> > since her friends and loved ones are all gone, there's nothing to fight for. She doesn't care
> > for her responsibility, it seems.
>
> Don't forget she told the two senshi to kill her because she thought it
> would end the war ("[to end wars] is the mission of a sailor soldier").
> That doesn't seem selfish to me.
>
I agree.
> > In the anime, she didn't fight _ONLY_ because she saw the
> > good left in somebody. Metallia and Wiseman and Pharoh 90 were incarnations of evil, so she
> > killed them, but she _knew_ Neherenia and Galaxia started out as good, and she ended up
> > healing them and freeing them, which I personally think much preferable to killing them.
>
> Nephelenia was never good in the manga, and she tries to get Galaxia to
> stop fighting. When Galaxia is hit, Usagi helps her.
> At first she realizes that she only fought for those she love, but she
> does realize that future is more important.
An essential key to being a true soldier-- whatever it takes. I do not hear
that from SM in the anime. THat is my biggest problem with her as a senshi.
noit...@hotmail.com
I have read most of the first 15 or so of the Fushigi Yuugi installments. At
last, I have met somone crazier than anime Usagi. Only thing is, she does
not pretend to be a soldier. That, and superior writting makes me not loathe
her like SM, which was so franchise-oriented. That, and everyone around her
being a little crazed in a consitent way so far makes the story itself
interesting. I am not trying to compare FY to SM; all I am saying is that I
now have broader perspective now on the "magical girl" genre.
Robert Hutchinson
> Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> > noit...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > > > of responsibility, while in the manga, she is progessively more of a ditz.
> > > >
> > > > in the past.
> > >
> > > That there have been attempts to cushion her ditziness? Yes... It is no
> > > where near enough in the face of so much ditzy depiction.
> >
> > Not cushioned; explained.
>
> Sure, there is an explanation: Lacksadaical writting. SHe is an endearing
> ditz, yes, but that is beside the point.
How about the almost universally accepted explanation that she's covering up
her fears and insecurities? And it's spelled "lackadaisical."
<snip>
> > You seem to feel that the two behaviors must be mutually exclusive.
>
> Barbing and admiration? Nay; it just leaves a very, very grave imalance
> that is so extreme that it is hard to swallow.
Uh ... huh. I cannot rebut this, for I find it completely silly. Sorry.
<snip>
> > How many plots are you talking about?
>
> Basically the whole season of SS.
>
> > First, you say "the plots were tighter,"
> > then you only list one anime plot that wasn't, compared to two you didn't
> > seem to have a problem with in that regard.
>
> I think so; the other anime plots and the manga were fine in that regard.
Then you meant "the plot was tighter."
Robert Hutchinson