National Guard Service
Slayer3x6
discussing the possibility of GWB having avoided active duty military service
by serving in the national guard. Seems the liberals love to run this one into
the ground, with the implication being that GWB used his father's stroke to
avoid Viet Nam.
Well, being the nosy SOB that I am, I decided to do a little snooping of my
own, and guess what???? Glory be, but it seems that both John Conyers (D-MI)
and Dick Gephardt (D-MO) did THEIR time in the national guard. And you know
what else? They were in the NG during the Viet Nam war! I wonder...
Nah, must be pure coincidence.
MF Ogilvie
David Hartung
Slayer3x6 wrote in message <19990907234735...@ng-bk1.aol.com>...
Just a small point, if I may. George W also volunteered for active service
as a pilot, but was refused due to his lack of experiance. Another point,
the Aircraft that Bush flew was an intercepter, which means that he probably
stood alert on a regular basis, IOW he was doing somethng to assure the
defense of this nation other than getting together once a month to play in
the woods.
David
Michael Ejercito
slay...@aol.com (Slayer3x6) wrote:
> I have read many postings, not to mention numerous so-called "news" stories,
> discussing the possibility of GWB having avoided active duty military service
> by serving in the national guard. Seems the liberals love to run this
one into
> the ground, with the implication being that GWB used his father's stroke to
> avoid Viet Nam.
>
> Well, being the nosy SOB that I am, I decided to do a little snooping of my
> own, and guess what???? Glory be, but it seems that both John Conyers (D-MI)
> and Dick Gephardt (D-MO) did THEIR time in the national guard. And you know
> what else? They were in the NG during the Viet Nam war! I wonder...
>
> Nah, must be pure coincidence.
>
> MF Ogilvie
Well,all three of them served in a capacity acceptable to the Pentagon.
None of them used fraud to avoid military service or to get into the
Guard.
Michael
TOMofSNJ
Michael Ejercito <meje...@csulb.edu> wrote in article
<mejercit-080...@134.139.62.205>...
> In article <19990907234735...@ng-bk1.aol.com>,
> slay...@aol.com (Slayer3x6) wrote:
>
> > I have read many postings, not to mention numerous so-called "news"
stories,
> > discussing the possibility of GWB having avoided active duty military
service
> > by serving in the national guard. Seems the liberals love to run this
> one into
> > the ground, with the implication being that GWB used his father's
stroke to
> > avoid Viet Nam.
Well of course having a father as a senator is not an automatic get into
the National Guard pass. It is as close as they come. What ever you are
smoking to think that junior got into the reserves, you better not smoke
it near junior.
> >
> > Well, being the nosy SOB that I am, I decided to do a little snooping
of my
> > own, and guess what???? Glory be, but it seems that both John Conyers
(D-MI)
> > and Dick Gephardt (D-MO) did THEIR time in the national guard. And
you know
> > what else? They were in the NG during the Viet Nam war! I wonder...
> >
> > Nah, must be pure coincidence.
> >
> > MF Ogilvie
> Well,all three of them served in a capacity acceptable to the
Pentagon.
> None of them used fraud to avoid military service or to get into the
> Guard.
A very large number of our present political leaders failed to go into the
military service.
Any one who went into the National Guard or reserves from 1964 to 1973
without having been on active duty did so to avoid Vietnam. You can stop
wondering. They are all a bunch of no goods. If you were any good you
never get past the political boss in you local town. The Pentagon is a
building. It is the people in the Pentagon who got favors in return for
enlistment's that did the dirty.
You should walk to the Wall in Washington and read the names. I know some
of them. They once breather the air as you do. They are not dead. They
might not be dead if our country forced everyone to serve. Junior, Newt,
Clinton, and the other leads all were draft dodgers. So what they all
stink. Their is not one of them that would not take the medicine out of
sick persons mouth in order to buy another pork piece of military
equipment made in their district.
>
>
> Michael
>
Slayer3x6
>None of them used fraud to avoid military service or to get into the
>Guard.
>
>
>
>
And neither did GWB.
MF Ogilvie
Slayer3x6
conitnue to see, an increasingly larger number of elected officials that have
never served in any branch of the armed forces. Mr. Gingrich and Mr. Clinton
are the two best examples I can come up with. As of right now, the majority of
congressmen and senators are veterans, but that percentage is definitely
dwindling.
Just another sign of the times, I guess. I don't know if this trend is good or
bad. Anyone care to speculate?
MF Ogilvie
Michael Ejercito
slay...@aol.com (Slayer3x6) wrote:
I said all three of them,which includes GWB.
Michael
hamilton
(Michael Ejercito) wrote:
Draft dodging is draft dodging. The rules were set up so that the
sons of the powerful and connected wouldn't have to serve -- and most
of em didn't. Bush's Daddy fixed him up; Quayle's Daddy fixed him up;
Newtie got the too smart to die exemption followed by the big daddy
exemption etc etc etc. Most of these GOP hypocrites were peddling like
mad to find these 'acceptable' alternatives to service. THAT is
draft dodging.
David Hartung
hamilton wrote in message ...
>Draft dodging is draft dodging. The rules were set up so that the
>sons of the powerful and connected wouldn't have to serve -- and most
>of em didn't. Bush's Daddy fixed him up; Quayle's Daddy fixed him up;
>Newtie got the too smart to die exemption followed by the big daddy
>exemption etc etc etc. Most of these GOP hypocrites were peddling like
>mad to find these 'acceptable' alternatives to service. THAT is
>draft dodging.
Avoiding service in SEA by joining the reserves is indeed Draft dodging, but
then so was joing the Navy or Air Force. The point is the individuals who
served in the reserves did indeed serve their country, just as my Father did
when he served in the Wisconsin Air Guard. BTW, I notice that I have yet to
see any sort of acknowledgement of the fact that George W did indeed
volunteer for service in SEA, and was turned down for lack of experiance.
David
David Hartung
TOMofSNJ wrote in message <01befb23$ef65b5c0$ea5accd1@default>...
>> Avoiding service in SEA by joining the reserves is indeed Draft dodging,
>but
>> then so was joing the Navy or Air Force. The point is the individuals
>who
>
>I think the 2,000 air force pilot shot down might disagree with your
>conclusion. I worked 18 years with a sailor who worked a flight deck on
>an aircraft carrier. I would never have changed my duty in the army in
>SEA for the navy duty. Those guys had it difficult.
I stand corrected.
>
>If you think that the navy or air force were not part of the war, then you
>have no idea of the effort and hard work they did.
I was a Air Force Bombloader(peacetime service only), and I heard many a
story about the work done during the War. Short war story, those of you who
had the chance to visit Anderson AFB during the war may remember the scads
of B52s on the RAmp. When I arrived in 1977 we had exactly 14 airplanes
assigned, unless you want to count 0100 which was mounted at the main gate.
>> served in the reserves did indeed serve their country, just as my Father
>did
>> when he served in the Wisconsin Air Guard. BTW, I notice that I have yet
>to
>> see any sort of acknowledgement of the fact that George W did indeed
>> volunteer for service in SEA, and was turned down for lack of
>experiance.
>
>Again you amaze me. Do you really think they would turn down anyone?
>What a line of bull.
This is in his official military records, and I do have some memory of the
program, since my father(who flew the same type that George W did) was
eligible. IF my memory is correct, they were looking for experianced pilots
to fly the 102 in SEA. Since they were looking for experianced pilots, it is
indeed possible that he was turned down.
>Junior dodged the draft. It not unusually about our elected people.
>Clinton avoided the draft and that did not make him a bad president. In
>fact if he had the five dollar whores in his youth, he mind not need extra
>social comfort in his old age.
What BUsh did, for whatever reason, was legal and honorable. What Clinton
did was illegal and comepletely lacking in honor. BTW CLINTON is the
absolute worst, and most corrupt president in my lifetime.
David
David Hartung
Mimi Weasel wrote in message
<19990909214733...@ngol02.aol.com>...
>"David Hartung" writes:
>>Avoiding service in SEA by joining the reserves is indeed Draft dodging,
but
>>then so was joing the Navy or Air Force.
>
You
>obviously are ignorant of the S.E.A.L.S who worked the rivers of Vietnam
and
>you are ignorant of the 2100 Air Force pilots shot down over 'Nam.
I am not ignorant, but I did make the mistake of not expressing myself
clearly. I was an enlisted man in the USAF(post SEA) and was going on some
tings that had been discussed with several of my flightcheifs. The life of
an Air FOrce Enlisted man was far bettrer, and less dangerous tha the life
of an 11bravo(I believe that is the infantry MOS) who probably spent a good
bit of his tour walking through the jungles getting shot at. Please accept
my apologies.
David
David Hartung
Hydratwo wrote in message <19990909210857...@ng-xb1.aol.com>...
>The Army NG is not the Army reserve. The only logical chance that ole
georgie
>would see combat would be if the VC came over the border from Mexico. I
have
>never heard of any Army National Guard being called to active duty other
than
>for state (under control of the gov) emergencies.
Several facts if I May. Gov. Bush was in th Air National Guard. While his
was not one of them, there were several Air Guard units called to active
duty for service in Viet Nam. The Unit that Bush belonged to was a part of
what used to be called the Air Defense Command. The ADC was tasked this the
Air Defense of the Continental U.S. Was this as dangerous as flying sorties
over Hanoi? OF course not, but it did call for some sacrifice on the part of
the members of the unit. If Bush's unit was like my Dad's, they had an alert
commitment, and had to keep a number of pilots ready to go. I Remember
several time when my Father was in telephone standby in expectation of being
called up.
David
TOMofSNJ
David Hartung <dhar...@bellsouth.net> wrote in article
<4HXB3.997$gl1....@news2.mco>...
>
> hamilton wrote in message ...
>
> >Draft dodging is draft dodging. The rules were set up so that the
> >sons of the powerful and connected wouldn't have to serve -- and most
> >of em didn't. Bush's Daddy fixed him up; Quayle's Daddy fixed him up;
> >Newtie got the too smart to die exemption followed by the big daddy
> >exemption etc etc etc. Most of these GOP hypocrites were peddling like
> >mad to find these 'acceptable' alternatives to service. THAT is
> >draft dodging.
>
> Avoiding service in SEA by joining the reserves is indeed Draft dodging,
but
> then so was joing the Navy or Air Force. The point is the individuals
who
I think the 2,000 air force pilot shot down might disagree with your
conclusion. I worked 18 years with a sailor who worked a flight deck on
an aircraft carrier. I would never have changed my duty in the army in
SEA for the navy duty. Those guys had it difficult.
If you think that the navy or air force were not part of the war, then you
have no idea of the effort and hard work they did.
> served in the reserves did indeed serve their country, just as my Father
did
> when he served in the Wisconsin Air Guard. BTW, I notice that I have yet
to
> see any sort of acknowledgement of the fact that George W did indeed
> volunteer for service in SEA, and was turned down for lack of
experiance.
Again you amaze me. Do you really think they would turn down anyone?
What a line of bull.
Junior dodged the draft. It not unusually about our elected people.
Clinton avoided the draft and that did not make him a bad president. In
fact if he had the five dollar whores in his youth, he mind not need extra
social comfort in his old age.
>
> David
>
>
>
Mimi Weasel
>Draft dodging is draft dodging. The rules were set up so that the
>sons of the powerful and connected wouldn't have to serve -- and most
>of em didn't. Bush's Daddy fixed him up; Quayle's Daddy fixed him up;
>Newtie got the too smart to die exemption followed by the big daddy
>exemption etc etc etc. Most of these GOP hypocrites were peddling like
>mad to find these 'acceptable' alternatives to service. THAT is
>draft dodging.
Conservatives make great fun of President Clinton for
questioning the Vietnam War, standing up to his beliefs and questioning his
own participation in that war as well, i.e., being honest and
walking the walk of his own belief system at least for a time. On the
other hand there were literally dozens of dishonest hypocritical,
cowardly right-wing loonies who supported the war while refusing to
personally participate. Here are just a few:
Elliott Abrams - Sought deferment for bad back.
Richard Armey - Sought college deferment, too smart to die.
Bill Bennett - Sought graduate school deferment, too smart to die.
Pat Buchanan - Sought deferment for bad knee.
Dick Cheney - Sought graduate school deferment, too smart to die.
Tom DeLay - - Sought college deferment, too smart to die.
Newt Gingrich - Sought graduate school deferment, too smart to die.
Phil Gramm - Sought marriage deferment, too loved to die.
Jack Kemp - Sought medical deferment while in the NFL.
Rush Limbaugh - Sought deferment for ingrown hair follicle on his ass.
Trent Lott - Sought deferment, didn't want to muss his hair.
P.J. O'Rourke - Sought deferment, too stoned.
Dan Quayle - Family got him into the Reserves.
Pat Robertson - Father pulled him out of Korea as soon as
the shooting began.
Vin Weber - Sought deferment for asthma.
George Will - Sought deferment, too much of a wussy.
Mimi Weasel
TOMofSNJ
Mimi Weasel <real...@aol.command> wrote in article
<19990909204712...@ngol06.aol.com>...
> (hamilton) writes:
> >Draft dodging is draft dodging. The rules were set up so that the
> >sons of the powerful and connected wouldn't have to serve -- and most
> >of em didn't. Bush's Daddy fixed him up; Quayle's Daddy fixed him up;
> >Newtie got the too smart to die exemption followed by the big daddy
> >exemption etc etc etc. Most of these GOP hypocrites were peddling like
> >mad to find these 'acceptable' alternatives to service. THAT is
> >draft dodging.
>
> Conservatives make great fun of President Clinton for
> questioning the Vietnam War, standing up to his beliefs and questioning
his
> own participation in that war as well, i.e., being honest and
> walking the walk of his own belief system at least for a time. On the
I think many question Clinton because he duped a Professor of Military
Science to write a letter that he intended to enlist in ROTC advanced
program. Clinton lied. Once he was off the hook on being drafted he
basically failed to keep his word and enlist as he had assured the army
officer. Of course, I am not a conservative but a Vietnam veteran so I
will let the conservatives tell their opinion on the issue.
Mimi...you have hit the nail on the head. It the entire lot of our
elected officials who avoided the military.
I am not smart enough to know the difference between Clinton saying he was
going to enlist in ROTC and the literally dozens of dishonest
hypocritical, cowardly right-wing loonies that you listed.
Hey the entire political leadership of both parties is full of people who
did not serve.
Hydratwo
>From: slay...@aol.com (Slayer3x6)
>Date: Tue, 07 September 1999 11:47 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990907234735...@ng-bk1.aol.com>
>
>I have read many postings, not to mention numerous so-called "news" stories,
>discussing the possibility of GWB having avoided active duty military service
>by serving in the national guard. Seems the liberals love to run this one
>into
>the ground, with the implication being that GWB used his father's stroke to
>avoid Viet Nam.
>
>own, and guess what???? Glory be, but it seems that both John Conyers (D-MI)
>and Dick Gephardt (D-MO) did THEIR time in the national guard. And you know
>what else? They were in the NG during the Viet Nam war! I wonder...
>
>Nah, must be pure coincidence.
>
>MF Ogilvie
>
>
>
>
>
>
Which goes to show ya that sneeky draft dodgers are not limited to a specific
party.
http://members.aol.com/hydratwo
http://www.egroups.com/group/paenvironment/info.html
Hydratwo
>From: "David Hartung" dhar...@bellsouth.net
>Just a small point, if I may. George W also volunteered for active service
>as a pilot, but was refused due to his lack of experiance
Which is surprising since he was placed in flight school with a lower 25 th
percentile pilot aptitute score.
>Another point,
>the Aircraft that Bush flew was an intercepter, which means that he probably
>stood alert on a regular basis, IOW he was doing somethng to assure the
>defense of this nation other than getting together once a month to play in
>the woods.
>
The Army NG is not the Army reserve. The only logical chance that ole georgie
would see combat would be if the VC came over the border from Mexico. I have
never heard of any Army National Guard being called to active duty other than
for state (under control of the gov) emergencies.
http://members.aol.com/hydratwo
http://www.egroups.com/group/paenvironment/info.html
Hydratwo
>Date: Wed, 08 September 1999 07:26 PM EDT
>Message-id: <mejercit-080...@134.139.62.205>
>stories,
>> discussing the possibility of GWB having avoided active duty military
>service
>> by serving in the national guard. Seems the liberals love to run this
>one into
>> the ground, with the implication being that GWB used his father's stroke to
>> avoid Viet Nam.
>>
>> Well, being the nosy SOB that I am, I decided to do a little snooping of my
>> own, and guess what???? Glory be, but it seems that both John Conyers
>(D-MI)
>> and Dick Gephardt (D-MO) did THEIR time in the national guard. And you
>know
>> what else? They were in the NG during the Viet Nam war! I wonder...
>>
>> Nah, must be pure coincidence.
>>
>> MF Ogilvie
>None of them used fraud to avoid military service or to get into the
>Guard.
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>
Nothing is wrong with NG service. However, one of the main points is he DID USE
influence to get into the NG and into pilot school.
http://members.aol.com/hydratwo
http://www.egroups.com/group/paenvironment/info.html
Hydratwo
>Date: Wed, 08 September 1999 08:44 PM EDT
>Message-id: <01befa5b$4fc2ffa0$025bccd1@default>
>> slay...@aol.com (Slayer3x6) wrote:
>>
>> > I have read many postings, not to mention numerous so-called "news"
>stories,
>> > discussing the possibility of GWB having avoided active duty military
>service
>> > by serving in the national guard. Seems the liberals love to run this
>> one into
>> > the ground, with the implication being that GWB used his father's
>stroke to
>> > avoid Viet Nam.
>
>the National Guard pass. It is as close as they come. What ever you are
>smoking to think that junior got into the reserves, you better not smoke
>it near junior.
>> >
>of my
>> > own, and guess what???? Glory be, but it seems that both John Conyers
>(D-MI)
>> > and Dick Gephardt (D-MO) did THEIR time in the national guard. And
>you know
>> > what else? They were in the NG during the Viet Nam war! I wonder...
>> >
>> > Nah, must be pure coincidence.
>> >
>> > MF Ogilvie
>> Well,all three of them served in a capacity acceptable to the
>Pentagon.
>> None of them used fraud to avoid military service or to get into the
>> Guard.
>
>military service.
>Any one who went into the National Guard or reserves from 1964 to 1973
>without having been on active duty did so to avoid Vietnam. You can stop
>wondering. They are all a bunch of no goods. If you were any good you
>never get past the political boss in you local town. The Pentagon is a
>building. It is the people in the Pentagon who got favors in return for
>enlistment's that did the dirty.
>
>You should walk to the Wall in Washington and read the names. I know some
>of them. They once breather the air as you do. They are not dead. They
>might not be dead if our country forced everyone to serve. Junior, Newt,
>Clinton, and the other leads all were draft dodgers. So what they all
>stink. Their is not one of them that would not take the medicine out of
>sick persons mouth in order to buy another pork piece of military
>equipment made in their district.
>
>>
>>
>> Michael
>>
>
>
>
Excellent statement in few words.
http://members.aol.com/hydratwo
http://www.egroups.com/group/paenvironment/info.html
Hydratwo
>Date: Thu, 09 September 1999 06:59 PM EDT
>Message-id: <hamilton-090...@host-209-214-115-92.bna.bellsouth.net>
>
>In article <mejercit-090...@134.139.69.99>, meje...@csulb.edu
>(Michael Ejercito) wrote:
>
>> In article <19990908225622...@ng-fj1.aol.com>,
>> slay...@aol.com (Slayer3x6) wrote:
>>
>> > >None of them used fraud to avoid military service or to get into the
>> > >Guard.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > And neither did GWB.
>> >
>> > MF Ogilvie
>> I said all three of them,which includes GWB.
>>
>>
>> Michael
>
>sons of the powerful and connected wouldn't have to serve -- and most
>of em didn't. Bush's Daddy fixed him up; Quayle's Daddy fixed him up;
>Newtie got the too smart to die exemption followed by the big daddy
>exemption etc etc etc. Most of these GOP hypocrites were peddling like
>mad to find these 'acceptable' alternatives to service. THAT is
>draft dodging.
http://members.aol.com/hydratwo
http://www.egroups.com/group/paenvironment/info.html
Hydratwo
>Date: Thu, 09 September 1999 08:01 PM EDT
>Message-id: <4HXB3.997$gl1....@news2.mco>
>
>
>hamilton wrote in message ...
>
>>sons of the powerful and connected wouldn't have to serve -- and most
>>of em didn't. Bush's Daddy fixed him up; Quayle's Daddy fixed him up;
>>Newtie got the too smart to die exemption followed by the big daddy
>>exemption etc etc etc. Most of these GOP hypocrites were peddling like
>>mad to find these 'acceptable' alternatives to service. THAT is
>>draft dodging.
>
>then so was joing the Navy or Air Force. The point is the individuals who
>when he served in the Wisconsin Air Guard. BTW, I notice that I have yet to
>see any sort of acknowledgement of the fact that George W did indeed
>volunteer for service in SEA, and was turned down for lack of experiance.
>
Ummm, I did join the USAF in those years and was in Bien Hoa for my year tour.
So dont necessarily lump full time ACTIVE service as the same crap that bush
and the other assholes pulled. The main point was the statements that they used
influence that the normal guy would have no chance. With the reported lower
25th per cent score, it would be unlikely that you or I would be in pilot
training, and more likely (if getting to be a NG officer) in charge of the
enlisted men peeling potatoes.
http://members.aol.com/hydratwo
http://www.egroups.com/group/paenvironment/info.html
Mimi Weasel
>Avoiding service in SEA by joining the reserves is indeed Draft dodging, but
>then so was joing the Navy or Air Force.
What year were you born? You OBVIOUSLY know NOTHING about the Vietnam war. You
obviously are ignorant of the S.E.A.L.S who worked the rivers of Vietnam and
you are ignorant of the 2100 Air Force pilots shot down over 'Nam. I don't
think Randy "Duke Cunningham would appreciate your comments about the Navy.
There was no "safe duty" in SEA. If you were there and in uniform you were in
danger, you know, pretty much the same way that if you were in the Mid East
during the Raygun admin in an American uniform you were in danger, even if you
were a Marine sleeping in your barracks in Lebbanon. Get a clue.
Mimi Weasel
Mimi Weasel
>I think the 2,000 air force pilot shot down might disagree with your
>conclusion. I worked 18 years with a sailor who worked a flight deck on
>an aircraft carrier. I would never have changed my duty in the army in
>SEA for the navy duty. Those guys had it difficult.
>If you think that the navy or air force were not part of the war, then you
>have no idea of the effort and hard work they did.
He should ask the S.E.A.L.S who worked the rivers in Vietnam if they had soft
duty. These little boys who were either too young to remember or were born
after the war are quick to TALK big, but they have no idea what they're talking
about.
>Again you amaze me. Do you really think they would turn down anyone?
>What a line of bull.
>Junior dodged the draft. It not unusually about our elected people.
>Clinton avoided the draft and that did not make him a bad president. In
>fact if he had the five dollar whores in his youth, he mind not need extra
>social comfort in his old age.
The difference is that the President never at any point in his life vocalized
anything resembling support for the military action in Vietnam. Not serving in
an action that you feel is wrong is NOT dishonorable. Not serving in an action
that you have vocally supported until it came time for you to serve IS
dishonorable. Conservatives are real good at talking about honor, but actions
speak much louder than words.
Mimi Weasel
Mimi Weasel
>Mimi...you have hit the nail on the head. It the entire lot of our
>elected officials who avoided the military.
You defame the service of both the right honorable Sen McCain who spent FIVE
YEARS as a POW in Vietnam and the service of the Vice President Al Gore, who
had to fight the Army to get INTO Vietnam. The Army thought it would be
extremely bad PR for a Senator's son to be killed in action. He served IN 'Nam
IN uniform IN country. It is highly disrespectful of you to dismiss their
service. TWO of the candidates that are vying for nomination for the
Presidential race of 2000 served honorably in extrem measures during a very bad
time in our country's history. You must be very young or very brainwashed.
"As a prisoner of war in North Vietnam I slept more soundly knowing
that George W. Bush was defending the shores of Texas from invasion."
--Senator John McCain, R-Az.
Do you see the sarcasm dripping from this statement? It tells you what a REAL
patriot thinks of the GOP "front runner"
Mimi Weasel
Mimi Weasel
>You may want to add the rushbo to this list also.
He's already on this list:
Mimi Weasel
>The Army NG is not the Army reserve. The only logical chance that ole georgie
>would see combat would be if the VC came over the border from Mexico. I have
>never heard of any Army National Guard being called to active duty other than
>for state (under control of the gov) emergencies.
"As a prisoner of war in North Vietnam I slept more soundly knowing
that George W. Bush was defending the shores of Texas from invasion."
--Senator John McCain, R-Az.
Most conservatives fail to comprehend the sarcasm in the right honorable
Senator McCain's statement.
Mimi Weasel
Knopp
<hydr...@aol.com> wrote:
> >Subject: Re: National Guard Service
> >From: meje...@csulb.edu (Michael Ejercito)
> >Date: Wed, 08 September 1999 07:26 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <mejercit-080...@134.139.62.205>
> >
> >In article <19990907234735...@ng-bk1.aol.com>,
> >slay...@aol.com (Slayer3x6) wrote:
> >
> >> I have read many postings, not to mention numerous so-called "news"
> >stories,
> >> discussing the possibility of GWB having avoided active duty military
> >service
> >> by serving in the national guard. Seems the liberals love to run this
> >one into
> >> the ground, with the implication being that GWB used his father's stroke to
> >> avoid Viet Nam.
> >>
> >> Well, being the nosy SOB that I am, I decided to do a little snooping of my
> >> own, and guess what???? Glory be, but it seems that both John Conyers
> >(D-MI)
> >> and Dick Gephardt (D-MO) did THEIR time in the national guard. And you
> >know
> >> what else? They were in the NG during the Viet Nam war! I wonder...
> >>
> >> Nah, must be pure coincidence.
> >>
> >> MF Ogilvie
> > Well,all three of them served in a capacity acceptable to the Pentagon.
> >None of them used fraud to avoid military service or to get into the
> >Guard.
> >
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Nothing is wrong with NG service. However, one of the main points is he DID
> USE
> influence to get into the NG and into pilot school.
Your opinion is noted.
Knopp
<hamilton-090...@host-209-214-115-92.bna.bellsouth.net>,
hamilton <hami...@dnvln.com> wrote:
> In article <mejercit-090...@134.139.69.99>, meje...@csulb.edu
> (Michael Ejercito) wrote:
>
> > In article <19990908225622...@ng-fj1.aol.com>,
> > slay...@aol.com (Slayer3x6) wrote:
> >
> > > >Well,all three of them served in a capacity acceptable to the Pentagon.
> > > >None of them used fraud to avoid military service or to get into the
> > > >Guard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > >
> > > And neither did GWB.
> > >
> > > MF Ogilvie
> > I said all three of them,which includes GWB.
> >
> >
> > Michael
>
> Draft dodging is draft dodging. The rules were set up so that the
> sons of the powerful and connected wouldn't have to serve -- and most
> of em didn't. Bush's Daddy fixed him up; Quayle's Daddy fixed him up;
> Newtie got the too smart to die exemption followed by the big daddy
> exemption etc etc etc. Most of these GOP hypocrites were peddling like
> mad to find these 'acceptable' alternatives to service. THAT is
> draft dodging.
You see, you've just nullified your own argument by admitting that
there were "'acceptable' alternatives" one could be a part of in order
NOT to be a draft dodger. You're in absolutely no danger of being in
need of dodging something you'll never face when you go ahead and
volunteer for a "acceptable alternative" to the draft. Besides,
there's absolutley zero real evidence that any of the people who named
(besides Quayle) wanted to use influence. Bill CLinton on the other
hand WAS drafted and simply crapped out on his due service to his
country. He crawled back to England on his belly instead because he'd
rather be chasing babes at protest rallies and smoking dope. THAT is
draft dodging.
TOMofSNJ
Mimi Weasel <real...@aol.command> wrote in article
<19990909224937...@ngol04.aol.com>...
> "TOMofSNJ" writes:
> >Mimi...you have hit the nail on the head. It the entire lot of our
> >elected officials who avoided the military.
>
> You defame the service of both the right honorable Sen McCain who spent
FIVE
> YEARS as a POW in Vietnam and the service of the Vice President Al Gore,
who
As a Vietnam Veteran, I most certain do not. I do think that McCain and
Kerry are exceptions to the lot. Their are always a couple excepts to
blanket statements but I still stick with the statement as a lot there is
very little honorable service among our elected officials and a lot of
draft avoidance. Reserve and National Guard duty for people who did not
serve active duty first was usually given to people with political
connections.
I also think the Gore served his time. I do not look pass the fact that
they served as good enough for me. Those that did things to avoid the
draft should be identified. When the people make a choice on election day,
the actions of accepting the draft law that required service or avoidance
by tricks is a valid question.
Kerry with a congressional medal of honor and I believe he lost part of a
leg and Senator McCain were most certainly men of honor. I think their
experiences help make this a safer nation. They know the price of freedom
and both were willing to pay extra for it. I believe that their history
helps makes us a better nation.
The former senator Robert Dole is another example of a man willing to pay
extra.
> had to fight the Army to get INTO Vietnam. The Army thought it would be
> extremely bad PR for a Senator's son to be killed in action. He served
IN 'Nam
> IN uniform IN country. It is highly disrespectful of you to dismiss
their
> service. TWO of the candidates that are vying for nomination for the
> Presidential race of 2000 served honorably in extrem measures during a
very bad
> time in our country's history. You must be very young or very
brainwashed.
I will not make a claim that I have not been brainwashed. I arrived in
South East Asia just as the TET offensive started.
>
> "As a prisoner of war in North Vietnam I slept more soundly knowing
> that George W. Bush was defending the shores of Texas from invasion."
> --Senator John McCain, R-Az.
> Do you see the sarcasm dripping from this statement? It tells you what a
REAL
> patriot thinks of the GOP "front runner"
It is a bit difficult to miss.
>
>
> Mimi Weasel
>
>
>
Mimi Weasel
>I am not ignorant, but I did make the mistake of not expressing myself
>clearly. I was an enlisted man in the USAF(post SEA) and was going on some
>tings that had been discussed with several of my flightcheifs. The life of
>an Air FOrce Enlisted man was far bettrer, and less dangerous tha the life
>of an 11bravo(I believe that is the infantry MOS) who probably spent a good
>bit of his tour walking through the jungles getting shot at. Please accept
>my apologies.
You needn't apologize to me, I am not a Vietnam vet. I did have three brothers
who served there, one of which came home. You need to apologize to people like
Hydra, who served in 'Nam and you might want to do yourself a favor by taking a
trip to the library and researching the war. My library system carries the
documentary "Vietnam: the 10,000 day war" if yours does, I highly recommend it
as a very factual record of that action.
Mimi Weasel
Mimi Weasel
>As a Vietnam Veteran, I most certain do not. I do think that McCain and
>Kerry are exceptions to the lot. Their are always a couple excepts to
Thank you for your service to the country, I spoke of McCain and Gore, I didn't
know about Kerry, thank you for the info on him.
>blanket statements but I still stick with the statement as a lot there is
>very little honorable service among our elected officials and a lot of
>draft avoidance. Reserve and National Guard duty for people who did not
>serve active duty first was usually given to people with political
>connections.
We are in complete agreement on this paragraph.
Mimi Weasel
Michael Ejercito
<hamilton-090...@host-209-214-115-92.bna.bellsouth.net>,
hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton) wrote:
> In article <mejercit-090...@134.139.69.99>, meje...@csulb.edu
> (Michael Ejercito) wrote:
>
> > In article <19990908225622...@ng-fj1.aol.com>,
> > slay...@aol.com (Slayer3x6) wrote:
> >
> > > >Well,all three of them served in a capacity acceptable to the Pentagon.
> > > >None of them used fraud to avoid military service or to get into the
> > > >Guard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > >
> > > And neither did GWB.
> > >
> > > MF Ogilvie
> > I said all three of them,which includes GWB.
> >
> >
> > Michael
>
> Draft dodging is draft dodging. The rules were set up so that the
> sons of the powerful and connected wouldn't have to serve -- and most
> of em didn't. Bush's Daddy fixed him up; Quayle's Daddy fixed him up;
> Newtie got the too smart to die exemption followed by the big daddy
> exemption etc etc etc. Most of these GOP hypocrites were peddling like
> mad to find these 'acceptable' alternatives to service. THAT is
> draft dodging.
Why did you omit Gephardt and Conyers,who are Democrats?
Michael
Hydratwo
>Date: Thu, 09 September 1999 11:34 PM EDT
>Message-id: <NO_B3.1368$xb2....@news1.mco>
>georgie
>>would see combat would be if the VC came over the border from Mexico. I
>have
>>never heard of any Army National Guard being called to active duty other
>than
>>for state (under control of the gov) emergencies.
>
>was not one of them, there were several Air Guard units called to active
>duty for service in Viet Nam. The Unit that Bush belonged to was a part of
>what used to be called the Air Defense Command. The ADC was tasked this the
>Air Defense of the Continental U.S. Was this as dangerous as flying sorties
>over Hanoi? OF course not, but it did call for some sacrifice on the part of
>the members of the unit. If Bush's unit was like my Dad's, they had an alert
>commitment, and had to keep a number of pilots ready to go. I Remember
>several time when my Father was in telephone standby in expectation of being
>called up.
>
>David
>
>
>
>
I have never heard of NG units activated for Vietnam service, but your father s
experience appears to indicate that this was a possibility. Nice post.
http://members.aol.com/hydratwo
http://www.egroups.com/group/paenvironment/info.html
Hydratwo
>Message-id: <rG_B3.1353$xb2....@news1.mco>
>>>Avoiding service in SEA by joining the reserves is indeed Draft dodging,
>but
>>>then so was joing the Navy or Air Force.
>>
>>What year were you born? You OBVIOUSLY know NOTHING about the Vietnam war.
>You
>>obviously are ignorant of the S.E.A.L.S who worked the rivers of Vietnam
>and
>>you are ignorant of the 2100 Air Force pilots shot down over 'Nam.
>
>clearly. I was an enlisted man in the USAF(post SEA) and was going on some
>tings that had been discussed with several of my flightcheifs. The life of
>an Air FOrce Enlisted man was far bettrer, and less dangerous tha the life
>of an 11bravo(I believe that is the infantry MOS) who probably spent a good
>bit of his tour walking through the jungles getting shot at. Please accept
>my apologies.
>
>
>
>
Obviously less dangerous than the grunt on patrol. However, even the large
bases (recall about 25 ) had rocket attacks.
http://members.aol.com/hydratwo
http://www.egroups.com/group/paenvironment/info.html
Hydratwo
>Date: Fri, 10 September 1999 07:22 AM EDT
>Message-id: <100919990721050241%kno...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com>
>> >Date: Wed, 08 September 1999 07:26 PM EDT
>> >Message-id: <mejercit-080...@134.139.62.205>
>> >
>> >In article <19990907234735...@ng-bk1.aol.com>,
>> >slay...@aol.com (Slayer3x6) wrote:
>> >
>> >> I have read many postings, not to mention numerous so-called "news"
>> >stories,
>> >> discussing the possibility of GWB having avoided active duty military
>> >service
>> >> by serving in the national guard. Seems the liberals love to run this
>> >one into
>> >> the ground, with the implication being that GWB used his father's stroke
>to
>> >> avoid Viet Nam.
>> >>
>> >> Well, being the nosy SOB that I am, I decided to do a little snooping of
>my
>> >> own, and guess what???? Glory be, but it seems that both John Conyers
>> >(D-MI)
>> >> and Dick Gephardt (D-MO) did THEIR time in the national guard. And you
>> >know
>> >> what else? They were in the NG during the Viet Nam war! I wonder...
>> >>
>> >> Nah, must be pure coincidence.
>> >>
>> >> MF Ogilvie
>> >None of them used fraud to avoid military service or to get into the
>> >Guard.
>> >
>> >
>> > Michael
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> USE
>> influence to get into the NG and into pilot school.
>
>Your opinion is noted.
>
>
>
>
>
>
I note your opinion that my opinion is noted. THought you did the honorable
thing and decided to help bush by shutting up.
TOMofSNJ
Hydratwo <hydr...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990910144351...@ng-fy1.aol.com>...
> >Subject: Re: National Guard Service
> >From: "David Hartung" dhar...@bellsouth.net
> >Date: Thu, 09 September 1999 11:34 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <NO_B3.1368$xb2....@news1.mco>
> >
> >
> >Hydratwo wrote in message
<19990909210857...@ng-xb1.aol.com>...
> >
> >
> >
>
> I have never heard of NG units activated for Vietnam service, but your
father s
> experience appears to indicate that this was a possibility. Nice post.
I know they took a few. IT was not all that uncommon to have a guard or
reserve member ask to be assigned to Vietnam. They know that it was good
for their career and decided to ask for duty. Most of this type were
career men who in most cases already had a lot of active duty.
>
> http://members.aol.com/hydratwo
> http://www.egroups.com/group/paenvironment/info.html
>
TOMofSNJ
Hydratwo <hydr...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990910143841...@ng-fy1.aol.com>...
> >Subject: Re: National Guard Service
> >From: "David Hartung" dhar...@bellsouth.net
> >Date: Thu, 09 September 1999 11:25 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <rG_B3.1353$xb2....@news1.mco>
> >
> >
> >Mimi Weasel wrote in message
> ><19990909214733...@ngol02.aol.com>...
> >
> >
>
> Obviously less dangerous than the grunt on patrol. However, even the
large
> bases (recall about 25 ) had rocket attacks.
You think so. I got news for you. I would suspect that percentage wise,
a pilot would probably be one of your most dangerous jobs. A chopper
pilot were not in a cake walk.
If there were totally safe assignment then you would have had the guys who
enlisted in the guard or reserves getting special treatment.
> http://members.aol.com/hydratwo
> http://www.egroups.com/group/paenvironment/info.html
>
David Hartung
Hydratwo wrote in message <19990910144351...@ng-fy1.aol.com>...
>I have never heard of NG units activated for Vietnam service, but your
father s
>experience appears to indicate that this was a possibility. Nice post.
This is from memory, so some of the details may be a little off, but I
recall that there were at least two Air Guard units called up for duty in
Nam, they were flying F100Cs and served with distinction. When I was at my
Tech School at Lowry AFB(since closed), I Was told that one of these UNIts
Was the Denver Guard, and their Aircraft were so used up during that tour
that when they returned, they recieved A7s fresh from the factory. To get
back to the original thread, While the service rendered by UNIts such as
Gov. Bush's was not the hazard of Viet Nam, they were playing a part in the
overall defense of the Nation. Bush was in the Guard during the time when
the USAF was moving most of it's manned interceptor force to the Guard, and
during this time the primary threat to the US was(I believe) from manned
Bombers. All in all, I believe that Bush served his country as much by
standing alert in Houston, as the folks who spent time in the jungles of
South Viet Nam, or in the sky over Hanoi.
Today, while going about my business I had a rather interesting thought. It
is entirely possible that Bush recieved absolutely no help from those with
influence, but at the same time recieved his appointment because of his
political pull. Put yourself in the position of the folks to whom Bush made
his application. Here is the son of a congressman, who just happens to meet
the qualifications for the job. WHy not let him in, and then perhaps the
Congreessman will make his gratitude known with help in the area of
appropriations. Did it happen this way, I have no idea, but it is possible.
David
TOMofSNJ
David Hartung <dhar...@bellsouth.net> wrote in article
<FPkC3.3831$xb2....@news1.mco>...
>
> Hydratwo wrote in message
<19990910144351...@ng-fy1.aol.com>...
>
>
> Today, while going about my business I had a rather interesting thought.
It
> is entirely possible that Bush recieved absolutely no help from those
with
> influence, but at the same time recieved his appointment because of his
> political pull. Put yourself in the position of the folks to whom Bush
made
> his application. Here is the son of a congressman, who just happens to
meet
> the qualifications for the job. WHy not let him in, and then perhaps the
> Congreessman will make his gratitude known with help in the area of
> appropriations. Did it happen this way, I have no idea, but it is
possible.
Here is another thought. The guy selecting pilots has two choices. One
being a guy who has served and trained already. He has already complete a
very expensive pilot school.
He has proven ability to do the job. The other guy has no training and no
experience.
He will have to go to a very expensive pilot school which happens to have
a very high flunk out rate. He is a son of wealth and political
connections. The first guy has a family and could use the extra pay and
possibly retirement benefits. He has served honorable and often has put
his ass in harms way during his tour of active duty. He has been
honorably discharged from active duty so he is not looking to avoid the
draft.
Who is the choice? Why of course, you would pick the inexperienced kid
who could get political pork to your area. You would have to send the kid
to a very expensive training program and he might not make it but the
wealthy family would be more than happy to show it pleasure for the help
of keeping junior out of harms way. The guy who already knows how to fly
and has experience today will not be available if the need for a pilot
occurs before the two years it takes to get junior qualified.
>
> David
>
>
>
Hydratwo
>Date: Fri, 10 September 1999 05:07 PM EDT
>Message-id: <01befbcf$55276600$405bccd1@default>
Tom
I know so. I was at Bien Hoa during 69. There was approx 25 rocket attacks when
I was there. Again, I am not knocking the NG (was in Army NG in mech inf and as
a forward observer after the four years active in the AF.
TOMofSNJ
Hydratwo <hydr...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990912185630...@ng-cs1.aol.com>...
> >Subject: Re: National Guard Service
> >From: "TOMofSNJ" tomo...@aol.com
> >Date: Fri, 10 September 1999 05:07 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <01befbcf$55276600$405bccd1@default>
>
> Tom
> I know so. I was at Bien Hoa during 69. There was approx 25 rocket
attacks when
> I was there. Again, I am not knocking the NG (was in Army NG in mech inf
and as
> a forward observer after the four years active in the AF.
I was north and east of you at least for the first six months of 69. I
arrived just as the TET stated.
The national guard and Reserve were once places for experienced military
guys.
The guard and reserves offered a lot a benefits with the risk of active
duty. Many good men accepted that role and enlisted in the Guard. It was
during the Vietnam war that they used it to protect the relatives and
political friends.
My father was in the reserves. He was served in W.W.I, WW2, Korea.
He started his military career on the back of a horse guarding the
Indians. I always loved when to made the statement that those Indians did
not need me to guard them. I needed a guard to protect me from the
Indians. My father stated that it was their honor that kept him alive.
They gave their word and their word was more important than his scalp.
It is a shame we cannot find a lot of honor among our elected officials.
>
Hydratwo
>Message-id: <01befd75$ff60fda0$df56ccd1@default>
effects even on the large Bien Hoa Army and AF Bases. What more could be said
after your post.
http://members.aol.com/hydratwo
http://www.egroups.com/group/paenvironment/info.html