NW question (spoiler warning)
Callas
At the end of NW, Ventinari rewards Vimes.
But - why?
Vetinari doesn't really know what happened, although he has guessed at
some of it. But he fought for the city, just as much as Vimes did; they
were together a part of what happened. For Vetinari to reward Vimes
seems...most peculiar, because I don't understand why he would be moved
to think or behave in that way.
Does anyone understand this better than I?
--
Callas
Kieran Sanders
news:MPG.19ffb94ac...@news-east.giganews.com...
> No spoiler space, because NW is out in paperback now.
>
> At the end of NW, Ventinari rewards Vimes.
>
> But - why?
>
> Vetinari doesn't really know what happened, although he has guessed at
> some of it. But he fought for the city, just as much as Vimes did; they
> were together a part of what happened. For Vetinari to reward Vimes
> seems...most peculiar, because I don't understand why he would be moved
> to think or behave in that way.
>
Vetinari figures out who Keel really was (at least in the "new" version of
the past), and the revolution is obviously something that affected him
deeply - why else would an assassin on a contract join the fight on the
rebel side? He obviously felt that in light of this revelation, Vimes
deserved something more (up until that point, all Vetinari knew was that
Vimes had been a rookie watchman at the time, who followed his sergeant's
lead). At the end of the book, Vetinari knows that Vimes fought for the
good guys in the revolution *twice*, once as young Sam, and again as Keel.
Of course, Vetinari is also a very clever man, and it may well be that he
figured out some of the quantum goings on - realising that Vimes had in fact
saved the "present" by his actions in the past.
Anyway, that's my take on Vetinari's motives.
There's also something I noticed Pterry himself talking about recently in a
post about Granny Weatherwax's role in WFM, which is that it would be in
some way "unfair" if Vimes had gone through all that and no-one at all in
the present ever knew about it - not for reasons of glory or of potential
rewards, but simply for the neat completion of the story. Any other result
would have left a rather unsatisfying taste in the reader's mouth (IMO of
course)
~Kieran Sanders
Daibhid Ceannaideach
>From: Callas cal...@summerblue.net
>Date: 21/10/03 22:45 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <MPG.19ffb94ac...@news-east.giganews.com>
>
>No spoiler space, because NW is out in paperback now.
>
>At the end of NW, Ventinari rewards Vimes.
>
>But - why?
>
>Vetinari doesn't really know what happened, although he has guessed at
>some of it.
He knows that Vimes was Keel. And he knows what Keel did.
> But he fought for the city, just as much as Vimes did; they
>were together a part of what happened.
Well, no. Vetinari made a couple of saves and assassinated Winder (which didn't
really do the city much good at all). Vimes, OTOH, was directly responsible for
stopping the whole thing turning into a bloodbath.
>For Vetinari to reward Vimes
>seems...most peculiar, because I don't understand why he would be moved
>to think or behave in that way.
Partly what I said above, partly habit, perhaps. If I was Vetinari then
"Something major happens, reward Vimes" would be becoming a reflex.
--
Dave
Now Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc for FOUR years
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"The Democrats are now wondering where they can find a liquid metal candidate
for Governer."
-The Now Show, 10/10/02
G Robert Mann
>>From: Callas cal...@summerblue.net
>>seems...most peculiar, because I don't understand why he would be moved
>>to think or behave in that way.
>
>
> Partly what I said above, partly habit, perhaps. If I was Vetinari then
> "Something major happens, reward Vimes" would be becoming a reflex.
>
I'm fairly sure Vetinari doesn't have reflexes, and even if he does, he
would never use them.
G
Danny
wrote the following stuff about Re: NW question (spoiler warning):
>>
>>From: Callas cal...@summerblue.net
>>Date: 21/10/03 22:45 GMT Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <MPG.19ffb94ac...@news-east.giganews.com>
>>
>>No spoiler space, because NW is out in paperback now.
>>
>>At the end of NW, Ventinari rewards Vimes.
<snip>
>
>Partly what I said above, partly habit, perhaps. If I was Vetinari then
>"Something major happens, reward Vimes" would be becoming a reflex.
Yes, it's kind of a habit too - it's happened so many times in previous
books, that Vimes himself says "there's nothing you can give me" after
rattling off what kind of 'rewards' Vetinari normally bestows (titles,
promotions, new dartboards).
Of course, Vetinari's *actual* reward is quite sneaky and certainly
something Vimes never would have expected.
Seeya. Danny.
... only about halfway through NW for the second time.
--
E-Mail: Danny (at) grovers (dash) sa (dot) com
Graycat
wrote:
>No spoiler space, because NW is out in paperback now.
Always spoilerspace. I know you put it in the header, so no wagging
fingers, but always use spoilerspace anyway. People are constantly
discovering new authors and starting to read their stuff - lots of
people haven't read NW just because it's paperback now.
He doesn't reward Vimes. He rewards Keel, who in this timeline,
happened to be Keel. I'm asuming he does it because Keel made sure
that the city wasn't shredded by general civil war while
simultaneously gettung rid of the palace guard so that Vetinari could
do his job.
I have a couple of other questions though.
Is Vetinari the ruler now because after putting Snapcase on the throne
he realised that trading powerhungry bastards for one another will
never work, and if you want something done right, do it yourself?
Why was it neccesary to send Vimes back in time, involve the time
monks (smug bastards) and inflate Vimes even more?
Couldn't it have been interesting to read the actual history, the one
where a very young and impressionable Vimes finds a mentor called John
Keel? Rather than another one in which Vimes is the only upstanding
and moral citicen of the entire planet.
I mean, understand me right, I like Vimes, he's one of my all-time
favourite characters (I love the whole watch actually) but he's almost
verging on Maru Sue here.
Quantum and the trousers of time seem to be two ideas that take up a
lot of Pterry's mindspace, is anyone else getting a bit tired of them?
Interested in a story about people rather than the space-time
continuum again?
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/index.html
From adress valid, but rarely checked. Use Reply-To to contact me
Peter Ellis
>Callas <cal...@summerblue.net> wrote:
>>
>>No spoiler space, because NW is out in paperback now.
>
>Always spoilerspace. I know you put it in the header, so no wagging
>fingers, but always use spoilerspace anyway. People are constantly
>discovering new authors and starting to read their stuff - lots of
>people haven't read NW just because it's paperback now.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>monks (smug bastards) and inflate Vimes even more?
>
>Couldn't it have been interesting to read the actual history, the one
>where a very young and impressionable Vimes finds a mentor called John
>Keel? Rather than another one in which Vimes is the only upstanding
>and moral citicen of the entire planet.
<LOUD CHEERING> Glad to know it's not just me!
>
>I mean, understand me right, I like Vimes, he's one of my all-time
>favourite characters (I love the whole watch actually) but he's almost
>verging on Maru Sue here.
Harsh, very harsh, but unfortunately containing more than a grain of
truth. Not an *intentional* MS, obviously, but dumping Vimes into another
character's shoes feels like "an excuse to write more Vimes", which is a
slippery slope.
That's why I'm very glad that MR is almost entirely new cast, though
unfortunately
<spoiler, I suppose>
Jackrum felt to me partially like an amalgam of bits of Vimes and Colon,
and Polly too felt very familiar in terms of attitude if not circumstance.
Personally, I think that the problem is that when the characters are used
to make moral points, they all speak with pretty much the same voice -
Terry's voice. While it's a good voice, and says some good things, it
does engender a certain feeling of homogeneity. Very much a case of "same
mind, different body/surroundings."
Peter
Andrew Tonkin
"Peter Ellis" <pj...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.4.44.03102...@green.csi.cam.ac.uk...
I agree with you too Graycat/Peter
I feel that the last few books (T5E on) have all been samish in their
approach (esp since they all contain the watch in some form. I am a little
tired of them
I loved NW but a bit of variety would be nice,
How bout a book that is a bit of a one off like pyramids/moving pictures?
I dunno, just my 5 cents worth(1)
Square Bear
(1) 2 cents in no longer legal tender here in XXXX
--I don't need a seeing eye dog, I need a thinking brain dog!
Stacie Hanes
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003, Graycat wrote:
>> Callas <cal...@summerblue.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> No spoiler space, because NW is out in paperback now.
>>
>> Always spoilerspace. I know you put it in the header, so no wagging
>> fingers, but always use spoilerspace anyway. People are constantly
>> discovering new authors and starting to read their stuff - lots of
>> people haven't read NW just because it's paperback now.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I mean, understand me right, I like Vimes, he's one of my all-time
>> favourite characters (I love the whole watch actually) but he's
>> almost verging on Maru Sue here.
>
> Harsh, very harsh, but unfortunately containing more than a grain of
> truth. Not an *intentional* MS, obviously, but dumping Vimes into
> another character's shoes feels like "an excuse to write more
> Vimes", which is a slippery slope.
>
I thought (based on discussion here) that Mary Sues were generally
"perfect." Vimes is flawed enough to be human, I think. I found the problem
of how to go back to the past and be a different person *in such a way as to
keep the future you're used to* very interesting. Lots of authors have done
similar stories; Heinlein's "--All You Zombies" being an attempt by the
author to do the ultimate (short) story of that kind. Since I *like* that
kind of thing, it's okay by me.
...which comes down to NW was to my taste, but not to yours. :-)
Stacie
...staying out of the "Heinlein's female characters" thread.
Rgemini
> <snip>
> That's why I'm very glad that MR is almost entirely new cast, though
> unfortunately
> <spoiler, I suppose>
>
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> Jackrum felt to me partially like an amalgam of bits of Vimes and
> Colon, and Polly too felt very familiar in terms of attitude if not
> circumstance. Personally, I think that the problem is that when the
> characters are used to make moral points, they all speak with pretty
> much the same voice - Terry's voice. While it's a good voice, and
> says some good things, it does engender a certain feeling of
> homogeneity. Very much a case of "same mind, different
> body/surroundings."
>
> Peter
For what it's worth, I knew someone very like Jackrum many years ago. He
(and it was a he) had been a Warrant Officer in the British army but I met
him years afterwards. Similar build and very similar attitudes. Made me
wonder who Terry was using as a model for Jackrum.
Rgemini
Graycat
<house_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Peter Ellis wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003, Graycat wrote:
>>> Callas <cal...@summerblue.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> No spoiler space, because NW is out in paperback now.
>>>
>>> Always spoilerspace. I know you put it in the header, so no wagging
>>> fingers, but always use spoilerspace anyway. People are constantly
>>> discovering new authors and starting to read their stuff - lots of
>>> people haven't read NW just because it's paperback now.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
><snip>
>>> I mean, understand me right, I like Vimes, he's one of my all-time
>>> favourite characters (I love the whole watch actually) but he's
>>> almost verging on Maru Sue here.
>>
>> Harsh, very harsh, but unfortunately containing more than a grain of
>> truth. Not an *intentional* MS, obviously, but dumping Vimes into
>> another character's shoes feels like "an excuse to write more
>> Vimes", which is a slippery slope.
>>
>
>I thought (based on discussion here) that Mary Sues were generally
>"perfect." Vimes is flawed enough to be human, I think.
He's flawed, but lately those flaws seem to be turning into perfection
in disguise. He's rude and opinionated - only _really_ that's "honest"
and "refuses to buy into the bullshit of society". He's a drunk, but
he beat it and can't be swayed by anything or anyone. He is very
classist, but that's ok because the upper classes are rubbish anyway.
Etc.
Here we have a man who gets thrown into the past, naked and without a
clue, who then moves on to singelhandedly preventing half a war,
disbanding the unmentionables and winning the respect of pretty much
everone whose respect is worth having [1] while also not screwing up
the timeline beyond repair and putting one up on the time monks.
I'd say that's pretty admirable, bordering on perfect.
Now, as I say, I really like Vimes, it's just that lately there's so
very much of him.
[1] If it hadn't been Snapcase he'd have been promoted to commander
and bloody well have dragged the entire city thirty years forward,
kicking and screaming as it may have been.
> I found the problem
>of how to go back to the past and be a different person *in such a way as to
>keep the future you're used to* very interesting. Lots of authors have done
>similar stories; Heinlein's "--All You Zombies" being an attempt by the
>author to do the ultimate (short) story of that kind. Since I *like* that
>kind of thing, it's okay by me.
>...which comes down to NW was to my taste, but not to yours. :-)
Oh I liked it, I liked it much much more than TT and ToT and it's
about the same as most of the books before Maskerade, except those
were funnier. I just think it could have been even better.
Duke of URL
news:bn60lv$th6bq$1...@ID-203370.news.uni-berlin.de
I worked for a Gunner's Mate First Class who could have been used as
the model for Jack Ram. Same build, years (MANY) of experience, same
attitudes...
Alec Cawley
<squar...@hotmail.com> writes
>I loved NW but a bit of variety would be nice,
>How bout a book that is a bit of a one off like pyramids/moving
>pictures?
Yes, a standalone like TAMAHER or WFM (so far) would be good right now,
--
Alec Cawley
Terry Pratchett
<Pine.SOL.4.44.03102...@green.csi.cam.ac.uk>, Peter
Ellis <pj...@cam.ac.uk> writes
>
>
>Harsh, very harsh, but unfortunately containing more than a grain of
>truth. Not an *intentional* MS, obviously, but dumping Vimes into another
>character's shoes feels like "an excuse to write more Vimes", which is a
>slippery slope.
Fans, eh?
Believe me, if I took notice of my e-mail and what people in the queues
say, every DW book since Feet of Clay would be about the Watch -- which
pretty much means 'about Vimes' in some way. NW was for me far more of
an excuse to visit 'old' Ankh-Morpork and see it though modern eyes, and
Vimes was exactly placed to be the patsy. As I've said elsewhere, a
copper is such a useful character.
>
>That's why I'm very glad that MR is almost entirely new cast, though
>unfortunately
><spoiler, I suppose>
>
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>Jackrum felt to me partially like an amalgam of bits of Vimes and Colon,
Oh, come on. Colon? Another fat man? Okay. But Jackrum is known to be
a brave and vicious fighter, a brawler, a man in the thick of it --
brighter and bolder than Colon, more brutal than Vimes-as-Keel. Colon
wants a quiet life, Jackrum blackmails to stay in the war. He won't
think twice about arranging a murder, or effectively threatening an
officer with an edged weapon (the shaving scene) out of pure
self-interest whereas Vimes-as-Keel lays *knocks out* Rust only when the
man is about to commit everyone's suicide for them. Vimes has got
brains and can move in different circles -- Jackram is the perpetual
NCO, and he schemes rather than thinks. You can says 'bits', but I
suspect that presented purely as characters, rather than all described
as sergeant, you won't find very much commonality
>and Polly too felt very familiar in terms of attitude if not circumstance.
>Personally, I think that the problem is that when the characters are used
>to make moral points, they all speak with pretty much the same voice -
>Terry's voice. While it's a good voice, and says some good things, it
>does engender a certain feeling of homogeneity.
Ah, now here you're on firmer ground. But how can it be otherwise?
--
Terry Pratchett
Peter Ellis
>In message
><Pine.SOL.4.44.03102...@green.csi.cam.ac.uk>, Peter
>Ellis <pj...@cam.ac.uk> writes
>>
>>
>>Harsh, very harsh, but unfortunately containing more than a grain of
>>truth. Not an *intentional* MS, obviously, but dumping Vimes into another
>>character's shoes feels like "an excuse to write more Vimes", which is a
>>slippery slope.
>
>Fans, eh?
*bows* I'm sure you'd much rather honest comment than fanboy/girl
wittering. *Intelligent* honest comment would be best, but I'm stuck
with what I've got to offer.
>
>Believe me, if I took notice of my e-mail and what people in the queues
>say, every DW book since Feet of Clay would be about the Watch -- which
>pretty much means 'about Vimes' in some way. NW was for me far more of
>an excuse to visit 'old' Ankh-Morpork and see it though modern eyes, and
>Vimes was exactly placed to be the patsy.
True, true, but I'm afraid I still don't see the necessity for it to
have been *Vimes* rather simply a "real" Keel. I take your point about
"modern eyes" but don't agree - surely the fact that Vimes is *being*
Keel means that the eyes aren't actually hugely different?
For me, the book gained nothing from being time-looped rather than a
simple prequel, and (inevitably) leads you into a zillion and one
continuity traps for the pedants to catch.
>
>As I've said elsewhere, a copper is such a useful character.
Yes, but when it's the *same* copper in each case, aren't you
restricting how much you can do with the character?
>
>
>
>>
>>That's why I'm very glad that MR is almost entirely new cast, though
>>unfortunately
>><spoiler, I suppose>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>Jackrum felt to me partially like an amalgam of bits of Vimes and Colon,
>
>Oh, come on. Colon? Another fat man? Okay. But Jackrum is known to be
>a brave and vicious fighter, a brawler, a man in the thick of it --
>brighter and bolder than Colon, more brutal than Vimes-as-Keel.
Yes - I guess the Colon thing is partly simply physical, but there's
also the lads-together camaraderie. The Regiment and the Watch didn't
feel to me quite as different as you'd expect and army and a police
force to be. Vimes comes in in the teasing/training of subordinates,
especially during the scene where Jackrum's quizzing the sentries, and
Polly catches him out by cadging the answers off the previous sentry.
That smelt *exactly* like a talk Vimes could have given to a bunch of
raw Watch recruits.
>Colon
>wants a quiet life, Jackrum blackmails to stay in the war. He won't
>think twice about arranging a murder, or effectively threatening an
>officer with an edged weapon (the shaving scene) out of pure
>self-interest whereas Vimes-as-Keel lays *knocks out* Rust only when the
>man is about to commit everyone's suicide for them. Vimes has got
>brains and can move in different circles -- Jackram is the perpetual
>NCO, and he schemes rather than thinks. You can says 'bits', but I
>suspect that presented purely as characters, rather than all described
>as sergeant, you won't find very much commonality
Yes, perhaps it's that they all draw to lesser or greater extent on a
"sergeant" archetype, and the origins shine through.
>
>>and Polly too felt very familiar in terms of attitude if not circumstance.
>>Personally, I think that the problem is that when the characters are used
>>to make moral points, they all speak with pretty much the same voice -
>>Terry's voice. While it's a good voice, and says some good things, it
>>does engender a certain feeling of homogeneity.
>
>Ah, now here you're on firmer ground. But how can it be otherwise?
Ah, now there's a conundrum. Wish I had the skill to do it :-) I
think in large part it's "Show, don't tell". If the situation and
story is strong enough, you don't need to use the characters to push
the message, or worst of all infodump the message as an (inner or
outer) monologue.
To my mind Small Gods was far more subtle in this regard than some of
the later books such as Jingo, Night Watch and Monstrous Regiment - I'm
thinking especially of scenes such as the one with the Ephebian slave
describing his terms and conditions, which *indirectly* shows the
differences to Omnia's repressive theocracy.
Another example is the way you managed to engender pity for Dios right
at the end of Pyramids, after we'd all been cursing at him right the
way through the book - you didn't need an observer (with or without
modern eyes) to look at him and *say* "Poor old bastard, he's the one
that's trapped for ever and will never know".
Cheers,
Peter
Sanity
article <3f964cc1...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>:
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:45:25 +0100, Callas <cal...@summerblue.net>
> wrote:
>
>>No spoiler space, because NW is out in paperback now.
>
> Always spoilerspace. I know you put it in the header, so no wagging
> fingers, but always use spoilerspace anyway. People are constantly
> discovering new authors and starting to read their stuff - lots of
> people haven't read NW just because it's paperback now.
Yup. For example, I have never read FoC yet. Ever. And that's been out for
a while ;-)
So, spoiler space.
.
.
.
.
>>At the end of NW, Ventinari rewards Vimes.
>>
>>But - why?
>>
>>Vetinari doesn't really know what happened, although he has guessed at
>>some of it. But he fought for the city, just as much as Vimes did; they
>>were together a part of what happened. For Vetinari to reward Vimes
>>seems...most peculiar, because I don't understand why he would be moved
>>to think or behave in that way.
>>
>>Does anyone understand this better than I?
>
> He doesn't reward Vimes. He rewards Keel, who in this timeline,
> happened to be Keel. I'm asuming he does it because Keel made sure
> that the city wasn't shredded by general civil war while
> simultaneously gettung rid of the palace guard so that Vetinari could
> do his job.
Sounds about right, as I understood it anyway.
> I have a couple of other questions though.
>
> Is Vetinari the ruler now because after putting Snapcase on the throne
> he realised that trading powerhungry bastards for one another will
> never work, and if you want something done right, do it yourself?
I think he is, but I think Vetinari was also already planning to become
the ruler of the city. But you never know for sure, because we never get
more than a tiny glimpse inside his head.
> Why was it neccesary to send Vimes back in time, involve the time
> monks (smug bastards) and inflate Vimes even more?
Because Terry likes him, the readers like him, and he's getting more and
more personality and is very suitable as a character because of his
down-to-earth attitude. He's not the flashy hero, but a common copper who
happens to be cunning in a streetwise way, and has Morality.
> Couldn't it have been interesting to read the actual history, the one
> where a very young and impressionable Vimes finds a mentor called John
> Keel? Rather than another one in which Vimes is the only upstanding
> and moral citicen of the entire planet.
In a way, that's what happened. Keel did teach Vimes everything, only in
this history it didn't happen. But it did happen, we assume as readers,
only in a different way. And Vimes isn't the only moral citizen in the
world. All the characters, from the rebellers to Lord Winder think they
are right. The rebellers think they are right, because Snapcase is such a
good man for the job - they didn't and couldn't know what Vimes knew. So
his presence as Keel gives an extra dimension to the story. Also because
is doesn't happen exactly as it happened, and Vimes is loosing control
over the story.
> I mean, understand me right, I like Vimes, he's one of my all-time
> favourite characters (I love the whole watch actually) but he's almost
> verging on Maru Sue here.
The ship that was found empty? ;-)
> Quantum and the trousers of time seem to be two ideas that take up a
> lot of Pterry's mindspace, is anyone else getting a bit tired of them?
> Interested in a story about people rather than the space-time
> continuum again?
Yes and no. I don't mind it coming up, or giving an extra dimension to a
story. But on the whole, I prefer something new in Discworld anyway. New
characters, new areas, new plots. There's plenty more to discover. OTOH, I
am discovering that I am starting to like the Watch books, while they were
probably among my least favourites up until recently. I think NW played a
big role in starting to appreciate the Watch books.
TTFN,
Michel AKA Sanity
--
"Sanity shall make ye -ing fret": | "A cat has 40 million hairs: 5
www.affordable-prawns.co.uk | million on its back, 10 million on
www.affordable-hedgehogs.co.uk | its belly, and 25 million on your
Check the AFPChess Tournament! | couch." --Midas Dekkers
Andrew Gray
>>
>>Believe me, if I took notice of my e-mail and what people in the queues
>>say, every DW book since Feet of Clay would be about the Watch -- which
>>pretty much means 'about Vimes' in some way. NW was for me far more of
>>an excuse to visit 'old' Ankh-Morpork and see it though modern eyes, and
>>Vimes was exactly placed to be the patsy.
>
> True, true, but I'm afraid I still don't see the necessity for it to
> have been *Vimes* rather simply a "real" Keel. I take your point about
> "modern eyes" but don't agree - surely the fact that Vimes is *being*
> Keel means that the eyes aren't actually hugely different?
If we didn't have Vimes, though, didn't have the "modern" sections, the
complaint would be that it was just writing a Watch story with different
names for the characters and a skinny runt who'd be important "later"
[this vaguely ties into the "homogenising" complaint below, I suppose] -
your Keel would turn out, pretty much, to be the late-Vimes anyway, it's
the way the character was sketched out (as I recall it).
> For me, the book gained nothing from being time-looped rather than a
> simple prequel, and (inevitably) leads you into a zillion and one
> continuity traps for the pedants to catch.
I must admit, I found mentally flipping off the time-loop parts to work
well enough :-)
That said, I've only read it once (and that a year ago - really must buy
it now it's in pb), but...
--
-Andrew Gray
shim...@bigfoot.com
Terry Pratchett
<pj...@cam.ac.uk> writes
>
>
>True, true, but I'm afraid I still don't see the necessity for it to
>have been *Vimes* rather simply a "real" Keel.
You don't. Okay.
>>
>>>
>>>That's why I'm very glad that MR is almost entirely new cast, though
>>>unfortunately
>>><spoiler, I suppose>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Jackrum felt to me partially like an amalgam of bits of Vimes and Colon,
>>
>>Oh, come on. Colon? Another fat man? Okay. But Jackrum is known to be
>>a brave and vicious fighter, a brawler, a man in the thick of it --
>>brighter and bolder than Colon, more brutal than Vimes-as-Keel.
>
>Yes - I guess the Colon thing is partly simply physical,
No. It is *totally* physical. Fred Colon is a follower, a slow thinker
with a tendency to self preservation. Jackrum regards the army as his
property.
>but there's
>also the lads-together camaraderie. The Regiment and the Watch didn't
>feel to me quite as different as you'd expect and army and a police
>force to be.
In a small group, under pressure, I imagine you'll find more
similarities than difficulties. And you've got to ask yourself how much
'army' you're going to get with an officer like Blouse and minus
Strappi.
> Vimes comes in in the teasing/training of subordinates,
>especially during the scene where Jackrum's quizzing the sentries, and
>Polly catches him out by cadging the answers off the previous sentry.
>That smelt *exactly* like a talk Vimes could have given to a bunch of
>raw Watch recruits.
With the best will in the world, you're straining more a bit. Polly and
the rest of them do exactly what recruits do in this sort of situation
-- you share information with your mates.
>
>>Colon
>>wants a quiet life, Jackrum blackmails to stay in the war. He won't
>>think twice about arranging a murder, or effectively threatening an
>>officer with an edged weapon (the shaving scene) out of pure
>>self-interest whereas Vimes-as-Keel lays *knocks out* Rust only when the
>>man is about to commit everyone's suicide for them. Vimes has got
>>brains and can move in different circles -- Jackram is the perpetual
>>NCO, and he schemes rather than thinks. You can says 'bits', but I
>>suspect that presented purely as characters, rather than all described
>>as sergeant, you won't find very much commonality
>
>Yes, perhaps it's that they all draw to lesser or greater extent on a
>"sergeant" archetype, and the origins shine through.
They're all sergeants and to various extent fill the pattern, but there
are major, ahah, differences in the way they think and act and treat the
world.
>
>>
>>>and Polly too felt very familiar in terms of attitude if not circumstance.
>>>Personally, I think that the problem is that when the characters are used
>>>to make moral points, they all speak with pretty much the same voice -
>>>Terry's voice. While it's a good voice, and says some good things, it
>>>does engender a certain feeling of homogeneity.
>>
>>Ah, now here you're on firmer ground. But how can it be otherwise?
>
>Ah, now there's a conundrum. Wish I had the skill to do it :-) I
>think in large part it's "Show, don't tell". If the situation and
>story is strong enough, you don't need to use the characters to push
>the message, or worst of all infodump the message as an (inner or
>outer) monologue.
Good lord, is that how it's done? But I don't accept your basic premise
that there are big messages being peddled, although -- as with some
previous books -- people are finding plenty. I can't conceive of MR
working without being quite tightly focussed one on group, just as Jingo
had to be told from several viewpoints. You disgree. But there's only
one person there when the cursor is winking:-)
--
Terry Pratchett
Callas
> Believe me, if I took notice of my e-mail and what people in the queues
> say, every DW book since Feet of Clay would be about the Watch -- which
> pretty much means 'about Vimes' in some way. NW was for me far more of
> an excuse to visit 'old' Ankh-Morpork and see it though modern eyes, and
> Vimes was exactly placed to be the patsy. As I've said elsewhere, a
> copper is such a useful character.
What strikes me, though, is that the books - like episodes of a long
running TV series - always have to have an engaging *plot*. So we
always meet the characters in trying and unusual circumstances; coups,
dragons attacking the city, invasion by foreign powers, etc.
I think there's a fundamental problem here, because life is humdrum far
more often than it is eventful. When we first find ourselves learning
about the characters (in the book or TV program) we can accept we're
learning about them at an unusual time; but when we see them facing
equally trying circumstances on a *regular basis* there is a
fundamentally unacceptable aspect within the suspension of belief.
Suspension of belief entails accepting the existance of Ankh-Morpork,
the Disc, Vimes and so on - all of which are logically self-consistent,
and that's the key, so that's fine. But I see no reason why life should
not be mainly humdrum on the Disc, but of course the dictates of a
thrilling book require unusual circumstances.
We never get to see them just being themselves, living their day to day
lives. I'd really enjoy a book just of the characters going about their
lives, day to day.
--
Callas
Peter Ellis
>In message <MPG.1a00f24ef...@news.cis.dfn.de>, Peter Ellis
><pj...@cam.ac.uk> writes
>>
>
>>
>>True, true, but I'm afraid I still don't see the necessity for it to
>>have been *Vimes* rather simply a "real" Keel.
>
>You don't. Okay.
No chance of an all-encompassing Galactic flamewar, just agree to
understand and (perhaps?) respect each others' viewpoints? But this is
Usenet! At least question my parentage, or something...
Certainly I'd *love* to see more prequels, or even books addressing
sections of the Disc's history completely outside the areas you've
touched so far - founding of Ankh-Morpork, Viking sagas among
hublanders, or something cyber-punk-esque set in the deep future. But
I'm weird that way.
You've also said at a CCDE that you've had intimations of being able to
write very strong material involving the death of a major canon figure
which I'll footnote as a potential spoiler [1]. I'd be *highly*
interested to see how you and the Disc would manage the end of someone
so significant - Cohen in The Last Hero, while a star in at least one
book, is certainly not in the same league.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>That's why I'm very glad that MR is almost entirely new cast, though
>>>>unfortunately
>>>><spoiler, I suppose>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Jackrum felt to me partially like an amalgam of bits of Vimes and Colon,
>>>
I'll yield on the Colon front - even while reading I couldn't clearly
articulate why I felt the (slight!) similarity. I don't *think* I'm
shallow enough for it to be entirely physical, but in the absence of
being able to put my finger on whatever's blinking in my brain, I'll
fold.
>
>In a small group, under pressure, I imagine you'll find more
>similarities than difficulties. And you've got to ask yourself how much
>'army' you're going to get with an officer like Blouse and minus
>Strappi.
This is true, as of course is the point that the Watch *is* of military
rather than civilian origin.
>
>> Vimes comes in in the teasing/training of subordinates,
>>especially during the scene where Jackrum's quizzing the sentries, and
>>Polly catches him out by cadging the answers off the previous sentry.
>>That smelt *exactly* like a talk Vimes could have given to a bunch of
>>raw Watch recruits.
>
>With the best will in the world, you're straining more a bit. Polly and
>the rest of them do exactly what recruits do in this sort of situation
>-- you share information with your mates.
I wasn't thinking of Polly per se, rather Jackrum's methods of training
and attitude when caught out, which felt very Vimes-ish.
>>
>>Yes, perhaps it's that they all draw to lesser or greater extent on a
>>"sergeant" archetype, and the origins shine through.
>
>They're all sergeants and to various extent fill the pattern, but there
>are major, ahah, differences in the way they think and act and treat the
>world.
Yes. I'll also suggest (carefully and I hope not coming across in the
wrong way) that the characters as they exist in *your* head will never
be quite the same as they get to the printed page - I imagine there's
lots of backstory, scenes etc. that played through your mind that for
some reason or other never made it into the book. Thus your
conceptions of them will perhaps inevitably be more distinctive than
the ones we get from reading the more partial descriptions you're able
to weave into the stuff that actually gets published.
I'd be quite interested to hear whether other readers also feel that
there are similarities between Jackrum and other characters in the
Discworld canon, and whether these are due to them all being sergeants,
or all fulfilling similar dramatic roles (mentor, teacher, military,
older figure, man-of-action confronting bureaucrat/officer/man-of-words
types)
>>>
>>>>and Polly too felt very familiar in terms of attitude if not circumstance.
This is possibly where the lit-crit types start talking about
archetypes - we have a collision of (at least) two here: "feisty women
beats the men at their own game" and "bright apprentice pleases the
teacher"
>>>>
>>>>Personally, I think that the problem is that when the characters are used
>>>>to make moral points, they all speak with pretty much the same voice -
>>>>Terry's voice. While it's a good voice, and says some good things, it
>>>>does engender a certain feeling of homogeneity.
>>>
>>>Ah, now here you're on firmer ground. But how can it be otherwise?
>>
>>Ah, now there's a conundrum. Wish I had the skill to do it :-) I
>>think in large part it's "Show, don't tell". If the situation and
>>story is strong enough, you don't need to use the characters to push
>>the message, or worst of all infodump the message as an (inner or
>>outer) monologue.
>
>Good lord, is that how it's done?
I apologise, that came across as somewhat patronising, which wasn't the
intent.
>
>But I don't accept your basic premise
>that there are big messages being peddled, although -- as with some
>previous books -- people are finding plenty.
Hum. Surely it's more or less impossible to write anything without
peddling some message or other? And when you address Big Subjects (TM)
like gender politics and war, you get Big Messages. For me, I'd say
that in recent books the messages seem somewhat more overt, and I don't
think I'm alone in that view. Whether that's a change in your style or
due to a change in the subject matter of the themes you want to mine is
an open question (if indeed those two reasons are so easily separable).
>
>I can't conceive of MR
>working without being quite tightly focussed one on group, just as Jingo
>had to be told from several viewpoints. You disgree.
Not so - I'm not the one saying I didn't get on with the tightly
focused viewpoint, that was 'im over there <points vaguely>. I'm the
one saying that some of the characters felt overly familiar despite
being ostensibly new.
>
>But there's only one person there when the cursor is winking:-)
*g* I should count your blessings [2]. I've just been bashing a
scientific paper into shape, with 8 other co-authors, and a host of
different journal styles to fit into. Continents have gone to war over
less. I won at least a few of the that/which arguments, though some of
the arguments over commas went to the mat.
Cheers,
Peter
[1] Granny
[2] Well, the blessings and the filthy lucre :-)
Stacie Hanes
> In message <MPG.1a00f24ef...@news.cis.dfn.de>, Peter Ellis
> <pj...@cam.ac.uk> writes
>>
>
>>
>> True, true, but I'm afraid I still don't see the necessity for it
>> to have been *Vimes* rather simply a "real" Keel.
>
> You don't. Okay.
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's why I'm very glad that MR is almost entirely new cast,
>>>> though unfortunately
>>>> <spoiler, I suppose>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>> Vimes comes in in the teasing/training of subordinates,
>> especially during the scene where Jackrum's quizzing the sentries,
>> and Polly catches him out by cadging the answers off the previous
>> sentry. That smelt *exactly* like a talk Vimes could have given to
>> a bunch of raw Watch recruits.
>
> With the best will in the world, you're straining more a bit.
> Polly and the rest of them do exactly what recruits do in this sort
> of situation -- you share information with your mates.
Maybe other veterans want to weigh in...but to me, that looked/felt real.
Boot camp on the march.
<snip sergeants>
>> Ah, now there's a conundrum. Wish I had the skill to do it :-) I
>> think in large part it's "Show, don't tell". If the situation and
>> story is strong enough, you don't need to use the characters to
>> push the message, or worst of all infodump the message as an
>> (inner or outer) monologue.
>
> Good lord, is that how it's done? But I don't accept your basic
> premise that there are big messages being peddled, although -- as
> with some previous books -- people are finding plenty. I can't
> conceive of MR working without being quite tightly focussed one on
> group, just as Jingo had to be told from several viewpoints. You
> disgree. But there's only one person there when the cursor is
> winking:-)
Okay, you're not peddling messages in the evangelical sense. I believe
that--you're writing stories. But messages *stow away* in stories; just
because an author didn't carefully and deliberately insert a "message"
doesn't mean there isn't something there. It's a novice mistake to say that
Terry Pratchett = Vimes, or any other character in a direct 1:1 comparison.
Still, there are principles you consistently present in a positive light,
and others you present negatively. To paraphrase Polly since I don't have
the book immediately to hand, sometimes enough lies show you the shape of
the truth. After enough stories, patterns emerge.
Besides, finding meanings embedded in Discworld novels keeps me out of worse
mischief.
Stacie
Richard Eney
Callas <cal...@summerblue.net> wrote:
>tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk wrote:
>> Believe me, if I took notice of my e-mail and what people in the queues
>> say, every DW book since Feet of Clay would be about the Watch -- which
>> pretty much means 'about Vimes' in some way. NW was for me far more of
>> an excuse to visit 'old' Ankh-Morpork and see it though modern eyes, and
>> Vimes was exactly placed to be the patsy. As I've said elsewhere, a
>> copper is such a useful character.
>
>What strikes me, though, is that the books - like episodes of a long
>running TV series - always have to have an engaging *plot*. So we
>always meet the characters in trying and unusual circumstances; coups,
>dragons attacking the city, invasion by foreign powers, etc.
>
>I think there's a fundamental problem here, because life is humdrum far
>more often than it is eventful. When we first find ourselves learning
>about the characters (in the book or TV program) we can accept we're
>learning about them at an unusual time; but when we see them facing
>equally trying circumstances on a *regular basis* there is a
>fundamentally unacceptable aspect within the suspension of belief.
Any series will have that problem. Columbo had to solve a new murder
every time the show was one. Vimes has to solve a crime of some sort.
We often see a certain amount of humdrum in MAA, in the stuff going on
around him in FoC, etc. The humdrum is there.
>Suspension of belief entails accepting the existance of Ankh-Morpork,
>the Disc, Vimes and so on - all of which are logically self-consistent,
>and that's the key, so that's fine. But I see no reason why life should
>not be mainly humdrum on the Disc, but of course the dictates of a
>thrilling book require unusual circumstances.
>
>We never get to see them just being themselves, living their day to day
>lives. I'd really enjoy a book just of the characters going about their
>lives, day to day.
The Disc is not the sort of place where you get recognizable Roundworld
humdrumness. For instance, in the Ramtops, people only get upset when
they _don't_ see walking trees, etc. In A-M, if the sounds of screams
coming from the Shades ever stops, or the Alchemists' Guild building stops
blowing up routinely, there will be worried conferences and people heading
for the hills (as happened in MP, IIRC). William de Worde doesn't put
wizards being weird on the front page because wizards being weird is
just wizards being wizards.
What we see as exciting conflict really is just another day in A-M for
Vimes. At the beginning of NW, he is considering how unexciting (and
comfortable) his life has become.
=Tamar
Torak
>
> We never get to see [the characters] just being themselves, living their day to day
> lives, day to day.
Hmmm... to some extent, perhaps, but surely a whole book of nothing but
humdrum stuff would be just a tad... well, humdrum?
Torak
>
> Maybe other veterans want to weigh in...but to me, that [scene in MR] looked/felt real.
> Boot camp on the march.
I haven't read MR yet, but other boot camp-type scenes in the DW books
have certainly seemed real.
Morph
> lives. I'd really enjoy a book just of the characters going about their
> lives, day to day
But that'll be like a Rincewind book where he stays in his room and
catalogues the rocks he's got. All those misadventures he goes on (that is
to say, he prefers to miss adventures, bad pun) are part of his 'adverage'
day.
Odd thing about Rincewind, where has he got left to go? He's gone back in
time, to Hades, the moon, Dunmanifestin, the Roundworld, as well as the
'mundane' locations like the Counterweight Continent and XXXX.
He's got nowhere else to go.
Terry Pratchett
<to...@andrew-perry.com> writes
that it works...
--
Terry Pratchett
Eric Jarvis
compared with most fantasy Discworld already has a lot more detail of how
ordinary things work...there's a fair bit of domestic detail about the
lives of the Lancre Witches and the Ankh Morpork Watch...the fact that we
tend to see Vimes's daily ablutions only when somebody tries to kill him,
for example, doesn't negate the fact that we had a glimpse into his normal
daily life
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
all these years I've waited for the revolution
and all we end up getting is spin
Callas
Would it?
I love reading the books when they come out, of course. They're great.
But after I've read them, as I come to know them, opening the book on a
random page now and then and reading some more, usually while the
computer reboots :), what I find I come to love most is *not* the drama,
or the plot - despite the can't-stop-turning-the-page intoxication of
the first read - but the conversations, the life of the characters,
right at the beginning of the book and at the end, before the plot has
begun and after it has ended; and the little things you sometimes find
in the books proper, where you glimpse day to day life before the
characters are struggling with events.
I'm thinking of Nobby and Colon, talking and sharing a ciggie, as they
stand guard at the gates at the beginning of The Truth. Nobby, on a
sting operation with Angua in Fifth Elephant, giving Done It Duncan some
money to eat, after Done It tried to steal his handbag. Carrot playing
football with the kid street gangs in Jingo. Vimes struggling with his
paperwork :)
I love reading about Ankh-Morpork, about the people and lives there, the
characters we've come to know so well. I don't need no steeeeeeeeenking
plot :)
--
Callas
Callas
> Callas <cal...@summerblue.net> wrote:
> Any series will have that problem. Columbo had to solve a new murder
> every time the show was one. Vimes has to solve a crime of some sort.
> We often see a certain amount of humdrum in MAA, in the stuff going on
> around him in FoC, etc. The humdrum is there.
Yes, but there's very little of it compared to the bulk of the book
which is of course taken up dealing with the plot.
Moreover, my point is - it doesn't have to be like this. Why not have a
book of normal life? indeed, why not have a Colombo espisode where he
just lives his life, does the shopping, talks to his friends at the
police office, etc.
> The Disc is not the sort of place where you get recognizable Roundworld
> humdrumness. For instance, in the Ramtops, people only get upset when
> they _don't_ see walking trees, etc. In A-M, if the sounds of screams
> coming from the Shades ever stops, or the Alchemists' Guild building stops
> blowing up routinely, there will be worried conferences and people heading
> for the hills (as happened in MP, IIRC). William de Worde doesn't put
> wizards being weird on the front page because wizards being weird is
> just wizards being wizards.
Beautifully put; and I think this is the key. Discworld humdrum is
fascenating and wonderful to *us*.
> What we see as exciting conflict really is just another day in A-M for
> Vimes. At the beginning of NW, he is considering how unexciting (and
> comfortable) his life has become.
No...I disagree that the events in NW, or an event of that magnitude
(foreign invasion, etc) are "just another day". The regularality of
events of that magnitude are due to the need for a plot. If AM *really*
faced such regular threats, it would cease to exist in reasonably short
order, due to the lack of a Vimes or Vetinari to save the day.
--
Callas
Callas
> > We never get to see them just being themselves, living their day to day
> > lives. I'd really enjoy a book just of the characters going about their
> > lives, day to day
>
> But that'll be like a Rincewind book where he stays in his room and
> catalogues the rocks he's got.
And goes down for meals, talks to the Librarian, walks around the
Library and AM, meets other characters, eats C.M.O.T.Dibblers deadly
food, and so on.
And in the same book, there's Vimes, dealing with day to day crime,
trying to get second hand boots, discussing matters with Carrot and
Vetinari, coping with Colon's written reports, rigging the traps in his
house, and so on.
--
Callas
Rhiannon S
>From: "Morph" mo...@trekkers1701.fsnet.com
>Date: 23/10/2003 11:31 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <bn8alr$5ob$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>
Of course if we suggest anywhere he could go, then it's specualtion and Pterry
can't write it.
--
Rhiannon
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rhiannon_s/
Q: how many witches does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: depends on what you want it changed into!
Eric Jarvis
> >Subject: Re: NW question (spoiler warning)
> >From: "Morph" mo...@trekkers1701.fsnet.com
> >Date: 23/10/2003 11:31 GMT Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <bn8alr$5ob$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>
> >
> >> We never get to see them just being themselves, living their day to day
> >> lives. I'd really enjoy a book just of the characters going about their
> >> lives, day to day
> >
> >But that'll be like a Rincewind book where he stays in his room and
> >catalogues the rocks he's got. All those misadventures he goes on (that is
> >to say, he prefers to miss adventures, bad pun) are part of his 'adverage'
> >day.
> >
> >Odd thing about Rincewind, where has he got left to go? He's gone back in
> >time, to Hades, the moon, Dunmanifestin, the Roundworld, as well as the
> >'mundane' locations like the Counterweight Continent and XXXX.
> >He's got nowhere else to go
>
> Of course if we suggest anywhere he could go, then it's specualtion and Pterry
> can't write it.
>
Rincewind doesn't "go to" places...he's never "gone to"
anywhere...Rincewind "runs away from" places
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Orjan Westin
> dic...@radix.net wrote:
>
>> What we see as exciting conflict really is just another day in A-M
>> for Vimes. At the beginning of NW, he is considering how unexciting
>> (and comfortable) his life has become.
>
> No...I disagree that the events in NW, or an event of that magnitude
> (foreign invasion, etc) are "just another day". The regularality of
> events of that magnitude are due to the need for a plot. If AM
> *really* faced such regular threats, it would cease to exist in
> reasonably short order, due to the lack of a Vimes or Vetinari to
> save the day.
Well, if you consider G!G!, MAA, FoC and TT, the basic premise is the same,
and we are told that this is no unusual occurence; in fact, the same idea is
said to occur much more often, instigated by Vetinari. Without Vetinari,
these particular plots would not have happened.
In J, you have a momentous event, which happens at regular, albeit long,
intervals, and in NW you have the effects of extradiscly interference in
ToT.
I can't really agree that things happen to get a plot. Well, obviously they
do when seen from the outside, but from within AM, I think it's just another
day in the big city. The Vetinari plots doesn't even involve the common man,
apart from in G!G!
Orjan
Luna
"Morph" <mo...@trekkers1701.fsnet.com> wrote:
I thought that Rincewind had nowhere else to go a while back, and then The
Last Hero came out.
--
-Michelle Levin (Luna)
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick
http://www.mindspring.com/~designbyluna
Matt
> In article <bn8alr$5ob$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> "Morph" <mo...@trekkers1701.fsnet.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> Odd thing about Rincewind, where has he got left to go? He's gone back in
>> time, to Hades, the moon, Dunmanifestin, the Roundworld, as well as the
>> 'mundane' locations like the Counterweight Continent and XXXX.
>> He's got nowhere else to go.
>
> I thought that Rincewind had nowhere else to go a while back, and then The
> Last Hero came out.
This thread's getting dangerousely close to speculation everybody!
Don't spoil anything please.
Duke of URL
>>> But that'll be like a Rincewind book where he stays in his room
>>> and catalogues the rocks he's got. All those misadventures he
>>> goes on (that is to say, he prefers to miss adventures, bad pun)
>>> are part of his 'adverage' day.
>>> Odd thing about Rincewind, where has he got left to go? He's gone
>>> back in time, to Hades, the moon, Dunmanifestin, the Roundworld,
>>> as well as the 'mundane' locations like the Counterweight
>>> Continent and XXXX. He's got nowhere else to go
??? I can't recall him going to Hades or Dunmanifestin. Which book(s)
was that?
Callas
> Callas wrote:
> > No...I disagree that the events in NW, or an event of that magnitude
> > (foreign invasion, etc) are "just another day". The regularality of
> > events of that magnitude are due to the need for a plot. If AM
> > *really* faced such regular threats, it would cease to exist in
> > reasonably short order, due to the lack of a Vimes or Vetinari to
> > save the day.
>
> Well, if you consider G!G!, MAA, FoC and TT, the basic premise is the same,
> and we are told that this is no unusual occurence; in fact, the same idea is
> said to occur much more often, instigated by Vetinari. Without Vetinari,
> these particular plots would not have happened.
In each book, remarkable events are occuring; a dragon, an epoc making
invention, a self-made Golem, a coup attempt.
In my life, I get up, work, go to bed. In the world around me, not much
of real note happens.
*That's* my point. AM is but a single city - but it's a lot more
fraught than any city in existance here, and the reason for that is that
there's a plot per book.
(BTW, I don't see how any of the books you mentioned here had plots
instigated by V. He coped with some of the events - in particular, in
MAA he has his hide-away, but that's about it, AFAICS.)
> I can't really agree that things happen to get a plot. Well, obviously they
> do when seen from the outside, but from within AM, I think it's just another
> day in the big city.
Given the number of high order events occuring to AM, I think I'd move
away if I lived there! I certainly wouldn't regard dragons, guns and
coup attempts as "just another day".
--
Callas
Luna
Callas <cal...@summerblue.net> wrote:
>
> Given the number of high order events occuring to AM, I think I'd move
> away if I lived there! I certainly wouldn't regard dragons, guns and
> coup attempts as "just another day".
>
> --
> Callas
>
What about muggings, rapes, kidnappings, murders, and car accidents? These
happen every day or nearly every day in most real-life cities. You can get
plenty of exciting stories about any real-life cop or emergency room worker
in the real world, there are entire reality shows based around this fact.
Their "every day" life is chock full of adventure and life/death struggles,
even without anything supernatural going on.
Beth Winter
Eric and The Last Hero, respectively.
--
Beth Winter
The Discworld Compendium <http://www.extenuation.net/disc/>
"To absent friends, lost loves, old gods and the season of mists."
-- Neil Gaiman
Orjan Westin
> nos...@cunobaros.demon.co.uk wrote:
>> Callas wrote:
>
>>> No...I disagree that the events in NW, or an event of that magnitude
>>> (foreign invasion, etc) are "just another day". The regularality of
>>> events of that magnitude are due to the need for a plot. If AM
>>> *really* faced such regular threats, it would cease to exist in
>>> reasonably short order, due to the lack of a Vimes or Vetinari to
>>> save the day.
>>
>> Well, if you consider G!G!, MAA, FoC and TT, the basic premise is
>> the same, and we are told that this is no unusual occurence; in
>> fact, the same idea is said to occur much more often, instigated by
>> Vetinari. Without Vetinari, these particular plots would not have
>> happened.
>
> In each book, remarkable events are occuring; a dragon, an epoc making
> invention, a self-made Golem, a coup attempt.
In each book, there is a plot to replace Vetinari, ok? That's the central
premise. The details surrounding it varies, yes, but it's only through the
main plot they're brought to our attention.
The epoch making invention, BTW, was invented long before. It just happened
to escape then.
> In my life, I get up, work, go to bed. In the world around me, not
> much of real note happens.
And the same goes for the majority of AM citizens, with the dragon and war
being the only notable items.
> *That's* my point. AM is but a single city - but it's a lot more
> fraught than any city in existance here, and the reason for that is
> that there's a plot per book.
Now, someone in Washington D.C. could presumably draw to mind a sniper, two
wars, biological warfare and the swearing in of a president who didn't get
the majority of votes, all in the last three years. Remember, Ankh-Morpork
is a huge city.
> (BTW, I don't see how any of the books you mentioned here had plots
> instigated by V. He coped with some of the events - in particular, in
> MAA he has his hide-away, but that's about it, AFAICS.)
No, but it's been stated many times that he's behind most of the plots
against him. These just happened to be private ventures that slipped past
his safeguards.
>> I can't really agree that things happen to get a plot. Well,
>> obviously they do when seen from the outside, but from within AM, I
>> think it's just another day in the big city.
>
> Given the number of high order events occuring to AM, I think I'd move
> away if I lived there! I certainly wouldn't regard dragons, guns and
> coup attempts as "just another day".
People still live in New York, Washington, Belfast, Manila... Your point
being?
Orjan
Duke of URL
news:3F97FBC3...@astercity.net
> Duke of URL wrote:
>>
>>>>> From: "Morph" mo...@trekkers1701.fsnet.com
>>
>>>>> But that'll be like a Rincewind book where he stays in his room
>>>>> and catalogues the rocks he's got. All those misadventures he
>>>>> goes on (that is to say, he prefers to miss adventures, bad pun)
>>>>> are part of his 'adverage' day.
>>>>> Odd thing about Rincewind, where has he got left to go? He's
>>>>> gone back in time, to Hades, the moon, Dunmanifestin, the
>>>>> Roundworld, as well as the 'mundane' locations like the
>>>>> Counterweight Continent and XXXX. He's got nowhere else to go
>>
>> ??? I can't recall him going to Hades or Dunmanifestin. Which
>> book(s) was that?
>
> Eric and The Last Hero, respectively.
Ah. I'ven't been able to find The Last Hero yet. Will have to re-read
Eric.
Duke of URL
news:MPG.1a020a156...@news-east.giganews.com
You've never lived in Chicago, huh?
Callas
> Callas <cal...@summerblue.net> wrote:
> > Given the number of high order events occuring to AM, I think I'd move
> > away if I lived there! I certainly wouldn't regard dragons, guns and
> > coup attempts as "just another day".
> What about muggings, rapes, kidnappings, murders, and car accidents? These
> happen every day or nearly every day in most real-life cities. You can get
> plenty of exciting stories about any real-life cop or emergency room worker
> in the real world, there are entire reality shows based around this fact.
> Their "every day" life is chock full of adventure and life/death struggles,
> even without anything supernatural going on.
There are hundreds of muggings, prolly a few rapes, maybe one murder a
day, in London. That's common, everyday drama. I imagine it's exactly
the same in AM. Events on the order of a dragon, a coup and an epoch-
marking invention are, however, noticable by their *absence*.
You need to differentiate between common and usual individual drama
repeated a hundred times (muggings) and uncommon and unusual mass drama
(dragons, coups) which should occur infrequently.
--
Callas
Callas
> Callas wrote:
> > nos...@cunobaros.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > In each book, remarkable events are occuring; a dragon, an epoc making
> > invention, a self-made Golem, a coup attempt.
>
> In each book, there is a plot to replace Vetinari, ok? That's the central
> premise. The details surrounding it varies, yes, but it's only through the
> main plot they're brought to our attention.
Perhaps I misunderstood, for you said "at the instigation of Vetinari".
I took this to mean you thought the plots were essentially of his
creation, by his actions, and under his control.
> > In my life, I get up, work, go to bed. In the world around me, not
> > much of real note happens.
>
> And the same goes for the majority of AM citizens, with the dragon and war
> being the only notable items.
And the coup. And the invention of newspapers. You omitted the gun.
And of return of the Auditors, with time being frozen. And that
business with Music with Rocks in, and the reality distortions with
Moving Pictures. In fact, as I would expect, in every book which is in
AM, something remarkable happens.
> > *That's* my point. AM is but a single city - but it's a lot more
> > fraught than any city in existance here, and the reason for that is
> > that there's a plot per book.
>
> Now, someone in Washington D.C. could presumably draw to mind a sniper, two
> wars, biological warfare and the swearing in of a president who didn't get
> the majority of votes, all in the last three years. Remember, Ankh-Morpork
> is a huge city.
A sniper would be the equivelent of Carcer. Nasty, but not Dragon-
level. The wars were overseas affairs, small fry for country; there was
no potential for D.C *itself* to be invaded, as happend to AM. As for a
president who didn't get the majority of votes, that IS Ventinari :)
And I suspect AM is huge *for the Discworld*. By our standards, AM
would be a mid 16th Century London or somesuch.
> > Given the number of high order events occuring to AM, I think I'd move
> > away if I lived there! I certainly wouldn't regard dragons, guns and
> > coup attempts as "just another day".
>
> People still live in New York, Washington, Belfast, Manila... Your point
> being?
Being that events of the magnitude of Dragons and invasions don't happen
in NY, W, B, M, etc, which is why people still live there :)
--
Callas
Callas
> "Callas" <cal...@summerblue.net> wrote in message
> > Given the number of high order events occuring to AM, I think I'd
> > move away if I lived there! I certainly wouldn't regard dragons,
> > guns and coup attempts as "just another day".
>
> You've never lived in Chicago, huh?
Nope. OTOH, I learned to trim quoted text ;)
--
Callas
Daibhid Ceannaideach
>Date: 23/10/03 19:04 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <MPG.1a022892a...@news-east.giganews.com>
>
>nos...@cunobaros.demon.co.uk wrote:
>> > In my life, I get up, work, go to bed. In the world around me, not
>> > much of real note happens.
>>
>> And the same goes for the majority of AM citizens, with the dragon and war
>> being the only notable items.
>
>And the coup. And the invention of newspapers. You omitted the gun.
Which the majority of citizens probably *didn't* notice.
>And of return of the Auditors, with time being frozen.
Which the entirity of citizens (with three exceptions) *can't* have noticed, by
definition.
--
Dave
Now Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc for FOUR years
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"The Democrats are now wondering where they can find a liquid metal candidate
for Governer."
-The Now Show, 10/10/02
Alec Cawley
<cal...@summerblue.net> writes
>Being that events of the magnitude of Dragons and invasions don't happen
>in NY, W, B, M, etc, which is why people still live there :)
I would call the events of 11 Sept.2001 of the same magnitude as a
Dragon. Then an aircraft crash in suburbia a few weeks later. And I
haven't seen NY being evacuated yet. The inhabitants of Baghdad have had
quite a bit of turbulence recently. And any history of Jerusalem can
hardly escape being called "eventful" - ditto Rome.
--
Alec Cawley
Stacie Hanes
>> From: Callas cal...@summerblue.net
>> Date: 23/10/03 19:04 GMT Daylight Time
>> Message-id: <MPG.1a022892a...@news-east.giganews.com>
>>
>> nos...@cunobaros.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
>>>> In my life, I get up, work, go to bed. In the world around me,
>>>> not much of real note happens.
>>>
>>> And the same goes for the majority of AM citizens, with the
>>> dragon and war being the only notable items.
>>
>> And the coup. And the invention of newspapers. You omitted the
>> gun.
> Which the majority of citizens probably *didn't* notice.
No, it was mentioned a little earlier as "epoch-making invention" or
similar.
Stacie
Torak
> Terry Pratchett wrote:
>><to...@andrew-perry.com> writes
>>
>>>Hmmm... to some extent, perhaps, but surely a whole book of nothing but
>>>humdrum stuff would be just a tad... well, humdrum?
>>
>>I'm not actually dismissing this. I think there's a way of doing it so
>>that it works...
>
> compared with most fantasy Discworld already has a lot more detail of how
> ordinary things work...there's a fair bit of domestic detail about the
> lives of the Lancre Witches and the Ankh Morpork Watch...the fact that we
> tend to see Vimes's daily ablutions only when somebody tries to kill him,
> for example, doesn't negate the fact that we had a glimpse into his normal
> daily life
Very true - and, I think, if anyone can do it it's Terry.
Callas
> In message <MPG.1a022892a...@news-east.giganews.com>, Callas
> <cal...@summerblue.net> writes
>
> >Being that events of the magnitude of Dragons and invasions don't happen
> >in NY, W, B, M, etc, which is why people still live there :)
>
> I would call the events of 11 Sept.2001 of the same magnitude as a
> Dragon.
I concur. Note one event in RL, many in AM.
> Then an aircraft crash in suburbia a few weeks later. And I
> haven't seen NY being evacuated yet.
See previous sentance.
> The inhabitants of Baghdad have had
> quite a bit of turbulence recently. And any history of Jerusalem can
> hardly escape being called "eventful" - ditto Rome.
The point about people leaving a city if high-order events repeatedly
happen has been over-focused on. It was made in passing. The point I
want to make is given in the original post.
--
Callas
Orjan Westin
Callas wrote:
> nos...@cunobaros.demon.co.uk wrote:
>> Callas wrote:
>>> nos...@cunobaros.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
>>> In my life, I get up, work, go to bed. In the world around me, not
>>> much of real note happens.
>>
>> And the same goes for the majority of AM citizens, with the dragon
>> and war being the only notable items.
>
> And the coup.
Um. That's thirty years ago. Unless you're thinking of some other coup.
> And the invention of newspapers.
All right. The invention of Internet.
> You omitted the gun.
No, I didn't. First of all, it's hardly epoch making, seeing as it was
locked away quite soon after its invention, brought out for a few days and
used to kill a dwarf and a beggar girl. And who cares if a dwarf or a beggar
girl dies? It's not noticed by people at large.
> And of return of the Auditors, with time being frozen.
And who notices? How do you know time hasn't frozen where you live?
> And that business with Music with Rocks in,
You mean, a new fad that comes and then goes? Pokemon?
> and the reality distortions with Moving Pictures.
Huh? Another fad that came and went. Sure, there are those who say that
there was a giant woman climbing up the Tower of Art, but then there are
people who claim that Elves Stole My Husband.
> In fact, as I would expect, in every book which is
> in AM, something remarkable happens.
Every day, in every city, something remarkable happens. Are you sure you're
not arguing for arguing's sake? It's a fantasy world, in which magic
exists, ok? Things happen that we'd consider unusual. Isn't it remarkable
that there is enough things happening to exactly fill a book?
> A sniper would be the equivelent of Carcer. Nasty, but not Dragon-
> level. The wars were overseas affairs, small fry for country; there
> was no potential for D.C *itself* to be invaded, as happend to AM.
Others have covered this.
> And I suspect AM is huge *for the Discworld*. By our standards, AM
> would be a mid 16th Century London or somesuch.
AM has a hundred thousand souls, and ten times that many people in it, a
population in excess of one million.
Orjan
Callas
> >From: Callas cal...@summerblue.net
> >And of return of the Auditors, with time being frozen.
>
> Which the entirity of citizens (with three exceptions) *can't* have noticed, by
> definition.
My original point was many high-order events occur in AM (due to the
need for a plot per book).
Whether or not the event is of a type which freezes time and so is not
noticed does not change the fact it is a high-order event.
--
Callas
Callas
> >> And the coup. And the invention of newspapers. You omitted the
> >> gun.
> > Which the majority of citizens probably *didn't* notice.
> No, it was mentioned a little earlier as "epoch-making invention" or
> similar.
Quite so. Gunpower and the gun in all it's forms revolutionized Europe
and indeed the world. The mere invention of such an item, despite the
fact it was suppressed in the Discworld, is a high-order event.
--
Callas
Aquarion
wrote:
You're talking about a Discworld fly on the wall documentary. Stopit.
I'd write it...[1]
--
Aq
Andy Davison
<rg2$op$TJ7l$EA...@unseen.demon.co.uk>:
> I'm not actually dismissing this. I think there's a way of doing it so
> that it works...
I was listening to a tape of Round the Horne yesterday (the show with the
Case of the Tapdancing Monk) where J Peasmould Gruntfuttock was
complaining that programmes on TV didn't have enough violence and
depravity and the BBC had a duty to show everyday life as it really is.
When he was told everyday life isn't like that his reply was "Mine is!"
--
Andy Davison
an...@oiyou.force9.co.uk
Daibhid Ceannaideach
Um, you said:
>> > In my life, I get up, work, go to bed. In the world around me, not
>> > much of real note happens.
The folk of the Disc felt much the same way about the day ToT is set.
The point is "high order" events *do* happen all the time. Most people don't
notice most of them.
Callas
> >Whether or not the event is of a type which freezes time and so is not
> >noticed does not change the fact it is a high-order event.
>
> Um, you said:
>
> >> > In my life, I get up, work, go to bed. In the world around me, not
> >> > much of real note happens.
>
> The folk of the Disc felt much the same way about the day ToT is set.
Indeed. Doesn't change the fact it's a high-order event. My - or the
entire population - noticing or not noticing the event doesn't change
that.
> The point is "high order" events *do* happen all the time. Most people don't
> notice most of them.
Rubbish. High-order events are inherently noticeable. If airplanes
crash into buildings, people notice. For a high-order event *not* to be
noticed is inherently unlikely - note that time actually had to *freeze*
for people not to notice ToT. That comes under the heading of
inherently unlikely!
--
Callas
Terry Pratchett
>
>Very true - and, I think, if anyone can do it it's Terry.
>
through a 'normal' day -- no dragons, no elfish invasions -- as they
meet, patrol, visit, deal with everyday things. Everything they do has
an effect, which causes other effects . And so the effects spread out
like a dreamcatcher, causing or preventing other small things, some of
which later affect the people concerned. To the subjects, these are
just random events in one day, but the reader sees it from above and
sees the patterns in the chaos. it would be like unfolding and
re-folding a Chinese puzzle. It would take a lot of forethought, but it
might work quite well.
--
Terry Pratchett
Alec Cawley
<cal...@summerblue.net> writes
>Rubbish. High-order events are inherently noticeable. If airplanes
>crash into buildings, people notice. For a high-order event *not* to be
>noticed is inherently unlikely - note that time actually had to *freeze*
>for people not to notice ToT. That comes under the heading of
>inherently unlikely!
How do you know? All you know is that you haven't seen it. But it is
inherent in the nature of it that you wouldn't have seen it. Events like
the gonne sequence and most of ToT could have happened right down your
street, and you would have carried on with your humble life. The dragon
was a biggie, admittedly - but could compare to 9/11. We do things more
peacefully, but the events of FoC could be compared to Watergate or to
the impeachment of Clinton - attempts (successful in one case) to topple
the ruler of the day. We just do it differently in democracies. T5E
happened off-stage. J is all too appropriate to goings on at the moment.
Plus the anthrax scare, the Washington snipers...
--
Alec Cawley
Alec Cawley
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
>I'd start possibly with the Witches, or possibly the Watch. We see
>them through a 'normal' day -- no dragons, no elfish invasions -- as
>they meet, patrol, visit, deal with everyday things. Everything they
>do has an effect, which causes other effects . And so the effects
>spread out like a dreamcatcher, causing or preventing other small
>things, some of which later affect the people concerned. To the
>subjects, these are just random events in one day, but the reader sees
>it from above and sees the patterns in the chaos. it would be like
>unfolding and re-folding a Chinese puzzle. It would take a lot of
>forethought, but it might work quite well.
That sounds very, very good indeed. I think you do detail very well, so
a book full of detail would be a real joy.
--
Alec Cawley
Callas
Old English word: interlockingless.
--
Callas
Callas
> I'd start possibly with the Witches, or possibly the Watch. We see them
> through a 'normal' day -- no dragons, no elfish invasions -- as they
> meet, patrol, visit, deal with everyday things. Everything they do has
> an effect, which causes other effects . And so the effects spread out
> like a dreamcatcher, causing or preventing other small things, some of
> which later affect the people concerned. To the subjects, these are
> just random events in one day, but the reader sees it from above and
> sees the patterns in the chaos. it would be like unfolding and
> re-folding a Chinese puzzle. It would take a lot of forethought, but it
> might work quite well.
BTW, I think that's beautiful.
Hope you're feeling better - or not, maybe, if being ill generates stuff
like this :)
--
Callas
Callas
A remarkable aspect of this is that as a book "plot" it can only be
accomplished when a series of well known books have established the
characters and their surroundings.
Imagine the first episode of Columbo trying to do a day-to-day plot;
it'd be bizzare. But after a hundred episodes, people *know* the man;
they don't need an introduction and what they love is the *man*, not the
plot. It's rather like Clint Eastwood or Harrison Ford, in the movies.
When you see them in a role, you already *know* so much about them,
because they always play similar roles; they can immediately get on with
being hard bitten or heroic.
It seems to me there is a transition where people go from being
primarily interested in the plot to being primarily interested in the
people.
--
Callas
Graycat
wrote:
>Callas wrote:
>>
>> We never get to see [the characters] just being themselves, living their day to day
>> lives. I'd really enjoy a book just of the characters going about their
>> lives, day to day.
>
>Hmmm... to some extent, perhaps, but surely a whole book of nothing but
>humdrum stuff would be just a tad... well, humdrum?
There's a great simpson episode along these lines. It's a bunch of
little scenes from the lives of the various people of springfield, not
connected to each other. Just little glimpses, short enough to contain
some sort of event and not get boring while still only depicting
normal everyday things.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/index.html
From adress valid, but rarely checked. Use Reply-To to contact me
Sanity
article <rdkl61x...@reef.water.gkhs.net>:
> You're talking about a Discworld fly on the wall documentary. Stopit.
>
> I'd write it...[1]
You'd better start small, like a day in the life of a footnote that has
gone off to explore the wonders of the world :-p
TTFN,
Michel AKA Sanity
--
"Sanity shall make ye -ing fret": | "A cat has 40 million hairs: 5
www.affordable-prawns.co.uk | million on its back, 10 million on
www.affordable-hedgehogs.co.uk | its belly, and 25 million on your
Check the AFPChess Tournament! | couch." --Midas Dekkers
Graycat
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message
><Pine.SOL.4.44.03102...@green.csi.cam.ac.uk>, Peter
>Ellis <pj...@cam.ac.uk> writes
>>
>>
>>Harsh, very harsh, but unfortunately containing more than a grain of
>>truth. Not an *intentional* MS, obviously, but dumping Vimes into another
>>character's shoes feels like "an excuse to write more Vimes", which is a
>>slippery slope.
>
>Fans, eh?
>
>Believe me, if I took notice of my e-mail and what people in the queues
>say, every DW book since Feet of Clay would be about the Watch -- which
>pretty much means 'about Vimes' in some way. NW was for me far more of
>an excuse to visit 'old' Ankh-Morpork and see it though modern eyes, and
>Vimes was exactly placed to be the patsy. As I've said elsewhere, a
>copper is such a useful character.
Sure, but he's not the only copper on the disc, is he? Nor do I see
why it's not equally useful to drop, say, the modern day Rosie Palm
into the role of Madam? Or, which would have been my favourite, drop
no-one anywhere and just do the story straight. Still, you're the
writer, and it was a good book. But as dedicated fan, it's my job to
pick at it :o)
Stevie D
Callas wrote:
> No spoiler space, because NW is out in paperback now.
No spoiler space - message failed.
You've been here long enough to know how things are supposed to work
here, so you've got no excuse for either of those.
ALWAYS put in spoiler space if what you say might spoil the story for
someone who hasn't read it yet. That is true whether it is the latest
Discworld book, an early Discworld book, _any_ bloody book, any film,
any anything.
ALWAYS.
--
Stevie D
\\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the
\\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________
Graycat
<sanityDE...@affordable-hedgehogs.co.uk> wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:34:33 +0000, gra...@passagen.se (Graycat) wrote in
>article <3f964cc1...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>:
>
>> On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:45:25 +0100, Callas <cal...@summerblue.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>No spoiler space, because NW is out in paperback now.
>>
>> Always spoilerspace. I know you put it in the header, so no wagging
>> fingers, but always use spoilerspace anyway. People are constantly
>> discovering new authors and starting to read their stuff - lots of
>> people haven't read NW just because it's paperback now.
>
>Yup. For example, I have never read FoC yet. Ever. And that's been out for
>a while ;-)
>
>So, spoiler space.
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>> Couldn't it have been interesting to read the actual history, the one
>> where a very young and impressionable Vimes finds a mentor called John
>> Keel? Rather than another one in which Vimes is the only upstanding
>> and moral citicen of the entire planet.
>
>In a way, that's what happened.
Yes, but we didn't get to read it.
>Keel did teach Vimes everything, only in
>this history it didn't happen. But it did happen, we assume as readers,
>only in a different way. And Vimes isn't the only moral citizen in the
>world. All the characters, from the rebellers to Lord Winder think they
>are right.
Yes, but since Vimes seems to always be cast as the hero it starts to
seem as though he is the only one who can ever accomplish anything. If
it wasn't for Vetinari and Carrot (though he sadly has seemed to fade
away lately) it would be downright annoying.
>> I mean, understand me right, I like Vimes, he's one of my all-time
>> favourite characters (I love the whole watch actually) but he's almost
>> verging on Maru Sue here.
>
>The ship that was found empty? ;-)
huh?
ingenious paradox
***Big spoiler for things not yet published (or possibly written) -
consider the following paragraph carefully before you scroll down***
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:36:53 +0100, Peter Ellis <pj...@cam.ac.uk>
wrote:
>You've also said at a CCDE that you've had intimations of being able to
>write very strong material involving the death of a major canon figure
>which I'll footnote as a potential spoiler [1].
Keeping lots of spoiler space
d
o
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>
>[1] Granny
Oooh, I do hope so!
I wasn't among those who felt CJ was too much in terms of Granny's
power but I do think she needs to be got rid of (despite the fact that
she's my favourite and I know I shall cry. I cry every time I read
L&L).
I had envisaged a new book simply starting with "a little while after
Esme's funeral" but if there's a story in the death which could be
made to work I would find it deeply satisfying.
LBs
Julie
RelMark
"Graycat" <gra...@passagen.se> wrote in message news:3f983ee0...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:26:49 +0200, Sanity
> <sanityDE...@affordable-hedgehogs.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:34:33 +0000, gra...@passagen.se (Graycat) wrote in
> >article <3f964cc1...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>:
> >
> >> On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:45:25 +0100, Callas <cal...@summerblue.net>
> >> wrote:
<snip>
> >> I mean, understand me right, I like Vimes, he's one of my all-time
> >> favourite characters (I love the whole watch actually) but he's almost
> >> verging on Maru Sue here.
> >
> >The ship that was found empty? ;-)
>
> huh?
That's be the Mary Celeste, IIRC.
RelMark
PussInSpooks
>I'd start possibly with the Witches, or possibly the Watch. We see them
>through a 'normal' day -- no dragons, no elfish invasions -- as they
>meet, patrol, visit, deal with everyday things. Everything they do has
>an effect, which causes other effects . And so the effects spread out
>like a dreamcatcher, causing or preventing other small things, some of
>which later affect the people concerned. To the subjects, these are
>just random events in one day, but the reader sees it from above and
>sees the patterns in the chaos. it would be like unfolding and
>re-folding a Chinese puzzle. It would take a lot of forethought, but it
>might work quite well.
I think that sounds rather wonderful, though there would probably be a hue and
cry from some quarters about the lack of 'action', but I think it sounds as if
it would have a beguiling gentleness, easy-osaying along....... 'proceeding'
even.
Guitar Huw
hedgehogs.co.uk>, Sanity says...
> On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:49:05 +0100, Aquarion <drw...@tmbg.org> wrote in
> article <rdkl61x...@reef.water.gkhs.net>:
>
> > You're talking about a Discworld fly on the wall documentary. Stopit.
> >
> > I'd write it...[1]
>
> You'd better start small, like a day in the life of a footnote that has
> gone off to explore the wonders of the world :-p
>
As you well know, these half-baked ideas have a dreadful tendency
towards fulfillment. Maybe not today, but at some point when you're
least expecting it, it will happen. This is Aquarion we're talking
about ;)
--
Huw
Torak
I wish nobody had mentioned this now - now I want to read that book!
When's it being released?
Torak
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:26:49 +0200, Sanity
>>>favourite characters (I love the whole watch actually) but he's almost
>>>verging on Maru Sue here.
>>
>>The ship that was found empty? ;-)
>
> huh?
The Kobayashi Maru Su? ;-)
Torak
And it means the plot could concentrate more on gentle comedy than any
major plot... I'd like that.
Rhiannon S
>From: Callas cal...@summerblue.net
>Date: 23/10/2003 19:52 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <MPG.1a0233c09...@news-east.giganews.com>
But the Disc does have Gunpowder, or number 1 powder it's called. It's just
that for some reason very few people have thought of making a weapon out of it.
Anyway, during the roundworld Industrial revoloution something extraordinary
happened nearly everyday in one field of science or engineering. Perhaps the
disc is just going through the same phase?
--
Rhiannon
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rhiannon_s/
Q: how many witches does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: depends on what you want it changed into!
Aquarion
<sanityDE...@affordable-hedgehogs.co.uk> wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:49:05 +0100, Aquarion <drw...@tmbg.org> wrote in
>article <rdkl61x...@reef.water.gkhs.net>:
>
>> You're talking about a Discworld fly on the wall documentary. Stopit.
>>
>> I'd write it...[1]
>
>You'd better start small, like a day in the life of a footnote that has
>gone off to explore the wonders of the world :-p
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
--
'q
X Kyle M Thompson
> What about muggings, rapes, kidnappings, murders, and car accidents?
> These happen every day or nearly every day in most real-life cities.
H'm.
Where I live (Woking, Surrey, UK)
* muggings: Not terribly newsworthy, but not that frequent either.
every day is a possibility, but I'd say less frequent.
* rapes: High profile news item, I have heard of no more than 2
in the past year
* kidnappings: Never heard of a kidnapping in my area
* murders: I've heard of a couple of stabbings, but that's it.
* car accidents:Prolly multiple incidents par day...
Not really that crime-ridden round here.
kt.
--
.sig is in the post
Callas
> >From: Callas cal...@summerblue.net
> >Quite so. Gunpower and the gun in all it's forms revolutionized Europe
> >and indeed the world. The mere invention of such an item, despite the
> >fact it was suppressed in the Discworld, is a high-order event.
> But the Disc does have Gunpowder, or number 1 powder it's called. It's just
> that for some reason very few people have thought of making a weapon out of it.
Only takes one. When something that useful begins to be used, other
people take notice pronto.
> Anyway, during the roundworld Industrial revoloution something extraordinary
> happened nearly everyday in one field of science or engineering. Perhaps the
> disc is just going through the same phase?
Could be. Clacks have been invented as well, printing has taken
off...does seem a rather inventive period.
--
Callas
Andrew Gray
Thompson wrote:
>
> Where I live (Woking, Surrey, UK)
>
> * muggings: Not terribly newsworthy, but not that frequent either.
> every day is a possibility, but I'd say less frequent.
> * rapes: High profile news item, I have heard of no more than 2
> in the past year
> * kidnappings: Never heard of a kidnapping in my area
> * murders: I've heard of a couple of stabbings, but that's it.
> * car accidents:Prolly multiple incidents par day...
(1990 crime statistics, because they're handy in this here book)
Let's say a "normal" city has 500,000 people, for the entirely arbitrary
reason that this one does and it makes the maths easy. In the UK in
1990, there were 3 murders, 7 rapes, ~6,500 thefts per hundred thousand
people, which'd give us 15 murders, 35 rapes, and around 33,000 thefts a
year.
(In a comparative US sample of the same year, our city would have 45,
~20, ~27,000 respectively. France; 20, 40, ~20,000; Germany much the
same, petty crime slightly higher)
Allowing for a slight increase due to urbanity, we can guess the average
British city of half-a-million would see a murder every three weeks, a
rape about every ten days (I'd guess a little more common), and the
petty crime comes in at something a little under a hundred a day. The
average American city would see a murder a week, at a guess, and a rape
about twice a month.
Not sure which side these support, but hey :-)
--
-Andrew Gray
shim...@bigfoot.com
Daibhid Ceannaideach
That sounds brilliant. My vote's for the witches, BTW.
Daibhid Ceannaideach
>From: Callas cal...@summerblue.net
>Date: 23/10/03 20:37 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <MPG.1a023e5c1...@news-east.giganews.com>
>
>daibhidc...@aol.com wrote:
>> >From: Callas cal...@summerblue.net
>
>> >Whether or not the event is of a type which freezes time and so is not
>> >noticed does not change the fact it is a high-order event.
>>
>> Um, you said:
>>
>> >> > In my life, I get up, work, go to bed. In the world around me, not
>> >> > much of real note happens.
>>
>> The folk of the Disc felt much the same way about the day ToT is set.
>
>Indeed. Doesn't change the fact it's a high-order event. My - or the
>entire population - noticing or not noticing the event doesn't change
>that.
That's *my* point. As detailed below.
>> The point is "high order" events *do* happen all the time. Most people
>don't
>> notice most of them.
>
>Rubbish. High-order events are inherently noticeable. If airplanes
>crash into buildings, people notice.
Could you please pick a definition of "high order event" and stick to it? I
thought things like radical inventions (even supressed ones) and secret
plottings counted?
>For a high-order event *not* to be
>noticed is inherently unlikely - note that time actually had to *freeze*
>for people not to notice ToT. That comes under the heading of
>inherently unlikely!
How do you know? It could happen on the third of every month, regular.
And I thought your point was that high order events were very unlikely full
stop?
And what about MAA? Most people *don't* know what happened. They've maybe heard
rumours that someone took potshots at the Patrician with some sort of
mechanical sling, or possibly a firework (but they all know you can't reliably
aim a firework), but that's about it.
Lesley Weston
news.arghbug...@spamgourmet.com wrote on 24/10/2003 4:05 AM:
> Luna wrote:
>> What about muggings, rapes, kidnappings, murders, and car accidents?
>> These happen every day or nearly every day in most real-life cities.
>
> H'm.
>
> Where I live (Woking, Surrey, UK)
>
> * muggings: Not terribly newsworthy, but not that frequent either.
> every day is a possibility, but I'd say less frequent.
> * rapes: High profile news item, I have heard of no more than 2
> in the past year
That would be *reported* rapes - you've heard of two, but there may well be
more; the victims often keep quiet about it.
> * kidnappings: Never heard of a kidnapping in my area
> * murders: I've heard of a couple of stabbings, but that's it.
> * car accidents:Prolly multiple incidents par day...
>
> Not really that crime-ridden round here.
It sounds like a nice place to live.
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, so as not to upset the sys-apes, but I don't
actually read anything sent to it before I empty it. To reach me, use lesley
att vancouverbc dott nett, changing spelling and spacing as required.
Eric Jarvis
> in article bnb11t$vc4kl$1...@ID-142568.news.uni-berlin.de, X Kyle M Thompson at
> news.arghbug...@spamgourmet.com wrote on 24/10/2003 4:05 AM:
> >
> > Not really that crime-ridden round here.
>
> It sounds like a nice place to live.
>
it's one of the few places I've ever been scared whilst walking on my own
at night
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Sanity
wrote in article <MPG.1a02ef9be...@news.individual.net>:
That why I posted that. I'm rather looking forward to a story like that.
Or am I the only person who wonders what the little feetneet do when I'm
not reading them?
Sanity
article <3f983ee0...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>:
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:26:49 +0200, Sanity
> <sanityDE...@affordable-hedgehogs.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:34:33 +0000, gra...@passagen.se (Graycat) wrote in
>>article <3f964cc1...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>:
[...]
>>So, spoiler space.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>.
>>
>
>>> Couldn't it have been interesting to read the actual history, the one
>>> where a very young and impressionable Vimes finds a mentor called John
>>> Keel? Rather than another one in which Vimes is the only upstanding
>>> and moral citicen of the entire planet.
>>
>>In a way, that's what happened.
>
> Yes, but we didn't get to read it.
We did read it. Only *we* knew it was Vimes, everybody else was convinced
that it was Keel. What it lacked was seeing it from Young Vimes' point of
view though.
>>Keel did teach Vimes everything, only in
>>this history it didn't happen. But it did happen, we assume as readers,
>>only in a different way. And Vimes isn't the only moral citizen in the
>>world. All the characters, from the rebellers to Lord Winder think they
>>are right.
>
> Yes, but since Vimes seems to always be cast as the hero it starts to
> seem as though he is the only one who can ever accomplish anything.
True. But he is in a position to accomplish stuff without miracles, so
it's not entirely surprising. He's a very rich and powerfull man, and
probably closer to Vetinari than anyone else.
> If
> it wasn't for Vetinari and Carrot (though he sadly has seemed to fade
> away lately) it would be downright annoying.
Probably, but I'm not sure. I can't really put it to words, but I think
there's also something reassuring that Vimes might save the day. Perhaps
not in the way he'd like, perhaps not completely saved, but somehow saved
anyway. In NW, he doesn't really save the day, he's being dragged along
with History, and in the end, it doesn't happen the way he likes.
>>> I mean, understand me right, I like Vimes, he's one of my all-time
>>> favourite characters (I love the whole watch actually) but he's almost
>>> verging on Maru Sue here.
>>
>>The ship that was found empty? ;-)
>
> huh?
Well, not *all* my jokes can be funny. It was a thought that crossed my
mind quickly before realising that's the Mary Celeste. :-)
Richard Eney
Callas <cal...@summerblue.net> wrote:
>luna...@NOSPAMmindspring.com wrote:
>> Callas <cal...@summerblue.net> wrote:
>>> Given the number of high order events occuring to AM, I think I'd
>>> move away if I lived there! I certainly wouldn't regard dragons,
>>> guns and coup attempts as "just another day".
Coup attempts have been normal for A-M since the beginning; people
reminisce about the various insane patricians they've had in the past.
The gonne didn't affect a lot of individuals. The dragon did, but
even it (technically, and because Vimes stopped it) didn't actually
succeed in affecting more people than were probably killed in an
average fire (TCoM, people were used to opening the flood gates
to douse yet another city fire).
While some individuals move out, more come in and the city continues.
Pseudopolis and Quirm seem to be quieter. (But I wonder. Madam
lives in Quirm, and was it the mayor of Quirm who reported a
nasty storm that chased him down an alley?)
spoilers for Watch books
>> What about muggings, rapes, kidnappings, murders, and car accidents?
>> These happen every day or nearly every day in most real-life cities.
<snip>
>> even without anything supernatural going on.
>
> That's common, everyday drama. I imagine it's exactly the
>same in AM. Events on the order of a dragon, a coup and an epoch-
>marking invention are, however, noticable by their *absence*.
>You need to differentiate between common and usual individual drama
>repeated a hundred times (muggings) and uncommon and unusual mass
>drama (dragons, coups) which should occur infrequently.
However, in two cases at least, the unusual mass drama was the result
of a human attempt to take over the city from Vetinari. The dramatic
fantasy stuff was just the weapon used. In the third, the big dramatic
element was more of an annoyance than a city-shattering event, and the
plot was again, an attempted coup.
I'm not actually sure what my point is in this post, but I'm going to
discuss the Watch books and the normal or non-normal quality of some
of the events in them.
Generally, though, people in A-M tend to treat unusual events as
a form of cheap entertainment. As long as they are not personally
involved or afraid that they will be, they don't usually care or
worry.
(Argh. It just occurred to me that ToT is a "watch" book.)
spoiler space for Watch books
10
8
6
4
2
0
G!G!: a human wanted to take over, so he found a weapon: in the
library, a book that would let him call up a dragon, and a group
of people small-minded enough to be manipulated into doing it.
MaA: a human wanted to take over (for the person he thought would 'make
it all better' by being a king), so he found a weapon: in his own Guild,
a weapon that had been put into supposed safe-keeping when it was
supposed to have been destroyed - the gonne. The gonne then became a
literal 'loose cannon', trying to take over itself, using any person
who touched it. The gonne eventually would have tried to kill Vetinari
because of its compulsion to offer its holder total power.
FoC: is more complicated, yes. The human plot actually has nothing
to do with the golem plot. The golem plot is just an annoyance that
distracts Vimes while he tries to solve the other one.
A human cabal wanted to take over so they had a set of candles made
and waited for events to happen. An accidental side effect was the
deaths of two innocents who were exposed to the candles. This plot
was probably not really ever solved, just ended.
Meanwhile, coincidentally, a group of golems wanted to have their
own leader, so they made a new golem and had it animated, but made the
mistake of giving it conflicting orders and their own old belief that
it had to have a master. The resulting cognitive dissonance and
madness drove it to commit several murders, which drew attention away
from the subtler murder attempt on Vetinari. This plot was solved.
A third plot, possibly related to the first one, was the revelation
to Vimes that the chief herald had been tracking the various family
lines of A-M and possibly planning marriages to 'create' certain
connections, perhaps with a view to eventually producing a controllable
king-puppet with the necessary charisma to take over and the stupidity
to be manipulated. This plot was solved and, if not ended, at least
postponed considerably.
A mad golem is a non-normal event, even for A-M, but once the problem
was solved, independent golems became normal for A-M.
A manipulative herald was apparently normal for a long time, and most
of the old families probably would not have raised much objection to his
activities. The cabal would have agreed to a manipulatable leader and
would have assumed that they would be doing the manipulating.
A group of plotters against Vetinari, or any Patrician, is a normal
event in A-M.
In this context, what is unusual about FoC is that it is close to a noir
novel, because the major group of plotters are not caught; only their
dupe, the candle-maker, is identified. That is balanced by the fact that
the golem murders are solved and the entity who may have been responsible
for the severe decline of intellect in the old families of Ankh-Morpork
is interrupted in his work. It's too late for Lord Rust and his cronies,
but the A-M part of the human genome may recover in a few generations.
FoC is the closest to a typical police procedural of the 'humdrum' type
because it has three unrelated plot strands all being worked on at once,
with a fairly 'typical' police procedural result: one happy end, one
problematic end, one stopped but not solved.
The golem plot doesn't cause large crowds to leave the city, as far
as we know. Only three people are killed by it, IIRC; if one death that
seems to have been caused by dragon king of arms was related to the cabal
plot (and thus dragon king of arms was in the cabal, maybe the power
behind it), then it's three deaths each. For all the on-page drama of
the golem king staggering around howling in the night, the city itself
isn't especially upset.
In other books, the invention of the clicks was a fad that passed.
Total physical damage, not much. Psychic shock level to the populace,
probably less than the events of Jingo because of less individual
effect.
Jingo was out of the usual phase, but it still included another attempt at
a coup, this time by Rust and his pals acting openly, using the existence
of the island and the war as their weapon. Vetinari used the Watch more
directly to manage the events and do some of his own investigating, and he
used information about the island to end the coup attempt rather publicly.
T5E: The invention of the clacks has settled in, possibly just because
they are not magical and not wildly magical. Vimes is out of the city
again, dealing with politics. This book doesn't seem to involve an
attempt to take over from Vetinari, unless you look at the negative side
of Carrot, who may be trying to take over the Watch from Vimes as a first
step. It may or may not have failed; he found out that "his" Watchmen
all quit (returning only when threatened), and only Vimes's stayed on.
TT: The main interest is quite literally A-M's mundane life, being
reported. The plot is another cabal attempt to replace Vetinari with a
more controllable individual. William investigates because he's a nosy
person. So TT is another Watch book, only it's seen from the outside, by
a more impartial watcher with a different point of view.
NW: the plot against the patrician is not against Vetinari...
=Tamar
Richard Eney
Duke of URL <macbenahATkdsiDOTnet> wrote:
>
>Ah. I'ven't been able to find The Last Hero yet. Will have to re-read
>Eric.
I've seen the h/c TLH remaindered inexpensively by Hamilton Books,
no doubt because the pb has more pictures. The story's the same.
=Tamar
Daibhid Ceannaideach
>Date: 24/10/03 21:55 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <bnc3kl$m36$1...@news1.radix.net>
>
>spoilers for Watch books
>spoiler space for Watch books
Just FoC now.
>10
9
>8
7
>6
5
>4
3
>2
1
>0
-1
>FoC: is more complicated, yes. The human plot actually has nothing
>to do with the golem plot. The golem plot is just an annoyance that
>distracts Vimes while he tries to solve the other one.
>
> A human cabal wanted to take over so they had a set of candles made
>and waited for events to happen. An accidental side effect was the
>deaths of two innocents who were exposed to the candles. This plot
>was probably not really ever solved, just ended.
It was solved, more or less. Vimes, at least, seemed pretty sure the Dragon
King of Arms was the ringleader, and arrested him. He probably didn't *stay*
arrested, but he was.
> Meanwhile, coincidentally, a group of golems wanted to have their
>own leader, so they made a new golem and had it animated, but made the
>mistake of giving it conflicting orders and their own old belief that
>it had to have a master. The resulting cognitive dissonance and
>madness drove it to commit several murders, which drew attention away
>from the subtler murder attempt on Vetinari. This plot was solved.
I'm not sure it was unrelated, either. It didn't start murdering until it had
been used to make the candles. That's unlikely to be a coincidence, although
I'm not sure what it suggests.
> A third plot, possibly related to the first one, was the revelation
>to Vimes that the chief herald had been tracking the various family
>lines of A-M and possibly planning marriages to 'create' certain
>connections, perhaps with a view to eventually producing a controllable
>king-puppet with the necessary charisma to take over and the stupidity
>to be manipulated. This plot was solved and, if not ended, at least
>postponed considerably.
I have to admit, I *didn't* get the impression the Dragon King had been doing
anything that isn't normal heralding, *until* he became involved in the
poisoning plot. Which is, IIRC, what he gets arrested for. Vimes disaproves of
the whole heraldry concept, and puts a spoke in its wheel while he's there, but
that's a seperate issue.
Richard Eney
Daibhid Ceannaideach <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote:
> dic...@radix.net (Richard Eney)
>>spoiler space for Watch books
>
>Just FoC now.
>
>>10
>
>9
>
>>8
>
>7
>
>>6
>
>5
>
>>4
>
>3
>
>>2
>
>1
>
>>0
>
>-1
>>FoC: is more complicated, yes. The human plot actually has nothing
>>to do with the golem plot. The golem plot is just an annoyance that
>>distracts Vimes while he tries to solve the other one.
>>
>> A human cabal wanted to take over so they had a set of candles made
>>and waited for events to happen. An accidental side effect was the
>>deaths of two innocents who were exposed to the candles. This plot
>>was probably not really ever solved, just ended.
>
>It was solved, more or less. Vimes, at least, seemed pretty sure the Dragon
>King of Arms was the ringleader, and arrested him. He probably didn't *stay*
>arrested, but he was.
The death in the alley seemed to connect the two, yes. But the golem
plot was still distinct.
>> Meanwhile, coincidentally, a group of golems wanted to have their
>>own leader, so they made a new golem and had it animated, but made the
>>mistake of giving it conflicting orders and their own old belief that
>>it had to have a master. The resulting cognitive dissonance and
>>madness drove it to commit several murders, which drew attention away
>>from the subtler murder attempt on Vetinari. This plot was solved.
>
>I'm not sure it was unrelated, either. It didn't start murdering
>until it had been used to make the candles. That's unlikely to be
>a coincidence, although I'm not sure what it suggests.
I don't think it had any commands like Asimov's Three Laws, so just
killing the humans who had caused its pain by making it exist at all
shouldn't have been a problem for it. Making too many candles was just
how it tried to overcome the pain of its conflicting instructions from
the golems. I think it was a coincidence, but it is an interesting one.
>> A third plot, possibly related to the first one, was the revelation
>>to Vimes that the chief herald had been tracking the various family
>>lines of A-M and possibly planning marriages to 'create' certain
>>connections, perhaps with a view to eventually producing a controllable
>>king-puppet with the necessary charisma to take over and the stupidity
>>to be manipulated. This plot was solved and, if not ended, at least
>>postponed considerably.
>
>I have to admit, I *didn't* get the impression the Dragon King had been
>doing anything that isn't normal heralding, *until* he became involved
>in the poisoning plot. Which is, IIRC, what he gets arrested for. Vimes
>disaproves of the whole heraldry concept, and puts a spoke in its wheel
>while he's there, but that's a seperate issue.
Dragon King of Arms was investigating possible matches for Carrot, and
would have approved of Angua's nobility if the family hadn't been
werewolves. As a vampire, he was against putting a werewolf in power,
so he began constructing another possible match on paper for Carrot.
That sounds to me like a hint that he had been planning family lines
to be conspired toward, not just recording them. And he's been in
A-M for a very long time, controlling who gets to have a coat of arms
(and the accompanying impression/assumption of nobility). If he didn't
let someone be considered noble, that someone is unlikely to have been
married by anyone in the old Ankh families. (Lady Sybil is a law unto
herself, but the men in her family tended to be just as uncreative
as any other nobility; it was their unusual good sense that made them
have BSJ thrown out, not their intelligence or creativity.)
The cabal he is working with/using are trying actively to find a _noble_
potential ruler who is controllable. They don't want Carrot because he
isn't controllable. If they can control him, they would accept even
Nobby, as long as Dragon can give him a written pedigree. Dragon may
have set that up for them because he wanted more control over the city,
or he may have done it as a joke to keep them busy while he worked on
finding a mate for Carrot that would make his offspring controllable.
What other reason can there be for Dragon to bother with a coup attempt?
=Tamar
Marco Villalta
> Graycat wrote:
>> Sanity <sanityDE...@affordable-hedgehogs.co.uk> wrote:
>>> gra...@passagen.se (Graycat) wrote:
>>>
>>>> I like Vimes, [...] but he's almost verging on Maru Sue here.
>>>
>>> The ship that was found empty? ;-)
>>
>> huh?
>
> The Kobayashi Maru Su? ;-)
I can see two reasons why nobody has mentioned the Eureka Maru
yet:
1) It doesn't qualify, not being empty;
2) The tastes of people on this group don't swing that way, you
don't know what I'm talking about, and I'm a pervert.
Please don't reply to this post.
--
Marco Villalta -- afpStuff in headers
Lora D
wrote:
>daibhidc...@aol.com wrote:
>> The folk of the Disc felt much the same way about the day ToT is set.
>
>Indeed. Doesn't change the fact it's a high-order event. My - or the
>entire population - noticing or not noticing the event doesn't change
>that.
>
>> The point is "high order" events *do* happen all the time. Most people don't
>> notice most of them.
>
>Rubbish. High-order events are inherently noticeable. If airplanes
>crash into buildings, people notice. For a high-order event *not* to be
>noticed is inherently unlikely - note that time actually had to *freeze*
>for people not to notice ToT. That comes under the heading of
>inherently unlikely!
Well. You really can't have it both ways. Must the populace
"inherently" notice a high-order event or not?
I'll give you a hint. In the eighteen years I lived in San Francisco,
there was at least one event you could describe as "high-order" per
year. Earthquakes, riots, assassinations, cranes falling from
skyscrapers into busy downtown streets, mass suicides, buildings
collapsing, strikes, explosions, mass murder, streets collapsing and
swallowing cars and buildings -- I could go on. Most of these events
had little or no effect on the majority of people. Most people who
were directly affected were held up in traffic. Aside from the
earthquakes, most people only knew about these events because of TV,
radio, and newspapers. ( I only know about some of them because a
friend happened to work in the emergency "command center" as a
dispatcher; I had to pick up her child when anything extraordinary
occurred.) A-M has a newspaper now, but is still not what you could
call saturated by mass media.
In a large city, a high-order event that affects hundreds of people
directly still affects only a small percentage of the population. If
San Francisco were attacked by a dragon, I will bet money that most
people would react by leaving work early on account of the extra
traffic, and expecting to read about how the authorities dealt with it
in tomorrow's paper.
And then some guy in the pub growling about how he doesn't see what's
the big deal, whe he was a boy they walked right down Mission St. all
the time, caught a tail in the trolley wires one time, the MUNI driver
had to untangle it with his pole, kids today just don't have the
experience. No perspective, y'know? Buy the next round? Everybody else
nods absently and continues playing Liar's Dice.
--
Lora in MT
David Chapman
> Torak <to...@andrew-perry.com> wrote:
>> The Kobayashi Maru Su? ;-)
>
> I can see two reasons why nobody has mentioned the Eureka Maru
> yet:
> 2) The tastes of people on this group don't swing that way, you
> don't know what I'm talking about, and I'm a pervert.
I know...
--
I spent six months in the cheese bin!
Torak
>
> Please don't reply to this post.
OK.
Rhiannon S
>Message-id: <MPG.1a03333a8...@news-east.giganews.com>
>
>mdde...@aol.comlemon wrote:
>> >From: Callas cal...@summerblue.net
>
>> >Quite so. Gunpower and the gun in all it's forms revolutionized Europe
>> >and indeed the world. The mere invention of such an item, despite the
>> >fact it was suppressed in the Discworld, is a high-order event.
>
>> But the Disc does have Gunpowder, or number 1 powder it's called. It's
>just
>> that for some reason very few people have thought of making a weapon out of
>it.
>
>Only takes one. When something that useful begins to be used, other
>people take notice pronto.
>
seem to missing large chunks of a lot of threads.
Would gunpowder weapons really have that much impact on DW? I mean they have
wizards capable of turning people into clouds of greasy smoke after all. With
wizards around you don't really need firearms do you? The only culture on the
DW that seems to have investigated them is the one that seems to have done away
with wizards.
Marco Villalta
> Marco Villalta did not say this. Marco Villalta was not here:
Hmm, but...
>> 2) The tastes of people on this group don't swing that way, you
>> don't know what I'm talking about, and I'm a pervert.
>
> I know...
But if I wasn't there, how would you know?
Ahah! I have foiled you with my superior logic!
Or did you mean you mean you know what I'm talking about? In
that case, kindly disregard this message...
Graycat
<sanityDE...@affordable-hedgehogs.co.uk> wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:52:32 +0000, gra...@passagen.se (Graycat) wrote in
>article <3f983ee0...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>:
>
>> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:26:49 +0200, Sanity
>> <sanityDE...@affordable-hedgehogs.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:34:33 +0000, gra...@passagen.se (Graycat) wrote in
>>>article <3f964cc1...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>:
>[...]
>>>So, spoiler space.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>.
>>>
>>
>>>> Couldn't it have been interesting to read the actual history, the one
>>>> where a very young and impressionable Vimes finds a mentor called John
>>>> Keel? Rather than another one in which Vimes is the only upstanding
>>>> and moral citicen of the entire planet.
>>>
>>>In a way, that's what happened.
>>
>> Yes, but we didn't get to read it.
>
>We did read it. Only *we* knew it was Vimes, everybody else was convinced
>that it was Keel. What it lacked was seeing it from Young Vimes' point of
>view though.
No, we didn't. Before Vimes got sent back there was a past where the
real Keel was Vimes' mentor, after he got sent back there was a past
where he was his own mentor. However, the past that created the Vimes
we know, who then taught himself, was the Vimes who was taught by
Keel. Now it is the Vimes that was taught by Vimes, but before he got
sent back, it wasn't - and if it hadn't been for the Vimes who was
taught by Keel, he wouldn't have been the right man to teach himself.
Anyway, I'd rather have read the first version.
But I don't mind if you don't agree.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/index.html
From adress valid, but rarely checked. Use Reply-To to contact me
CCA
>I can see two reasons why nobody has mentioned the Eureka Maru
>yet:
(snip)
>2) The tastes of people on this group don't swing that way...
How do you know?
>... you don't know what I'm talking about...
How do you know?
>...and I'm a pervert.
How do you- alright, I'll assume it's better not to ask...
>Please don't reply to this post.
And now you're just encouraging us ;-)
CCA:)
--
Family Bites Website and sample chapter at http://www.falboroughhall.co.uk
grahamafforda...@hotmail.com
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:58:19 +0200, Marco Villalta
<marcos_b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I can see two reasons why nobody has mentioned the Eureka Maru
>yet:
>
>1) It doesn't qualify, not being empty;
>
>2) The tastes of people on this group don't swing that way, you
>don't know what I'm talking about, and I'm a pervert.
Well I'm a pervert as well, but I don't know what you're talking
about!
>Please don't reply to this post.
Oops! Too late!!
Cheers,
Graham.
Carol Hague
<grahamafforda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:58:19 +0200, Marco Villalta
> <marcos_b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I can see two reasons why nobody has mentioned the Eureka Maru
> >yet:
> >
> >1) It doesn't qualify, not being empty;
> >
> >2) The tastes of people on this group don't swing that way, you
> >don't know what I'm talking about, and I'm a pervert.
>
> Well I'm a pervert as well, but I don't know what you're talking
> about!
I think he's confessing to the deep shame of watching Andromeda, in
which one of the spaceships is called the Eureka Maru.
And yep, I watch it too , but as a self-confessed afphilistine, I'm not
ashamed, so there :-)
--
Carol Hague
"Mmmmooooowooooff!" - the Moobark, "The Treacle People"