Lady Thatcher

[Larry Moore]

My sympathy - we passed 'Peak Colourful' in 1967 and probably shan't see
her like again.


--
"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
"And every single one of them is right!"
"In the Neolithic Age," R Kipling

[GaryN]

Larry Moore <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in news:kjubh1$thl$1@dont-
email.me:

> My sympathy - we passed 'Peak Colourful' in 1967 and probably shan't see
> her like again.
>
>

"Ding Dong the Witch is dead"

And on the day when the worst of the benefit-bashing comes into force!

Probably shuffled off thinking "My work here is done"

Good riddance, shame no Taliban sniper has got Blair and his hag yet.

gary

--
"I'm not twisted.
I'm a tortured soul in a flexible body"

The Contortionist in 'MicMacs'

[Lesley Weston]

On 04-08-13 5:00 AM, Larry Moore wrote:
> My sympathy - we passed 'Peak Colourful' in 1967 and probably shan't see
> her like again.
>
>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrEdYyejlj8

Not that she was able to do much more harm once her own palace guard had
mounted their coup. And delayed so long it's not much of a revenge for
all the people she damaged so severely, and for her destroying the
country in which I grew up and of which I'm still rather fond.

Lesley.

--
This address is real, but to reach me use leswes att shaw dott ca

[Nigel Stapley]

On 08/04/2013 13:00, Larry Moore wrote:
> My sympathy - we passed 'Peak Colourful' in 1967 and probably shan't see
> her like again.
>
>

Save your sympathy for the victims of her tunnel-visioned viciousness:
the poor, placed into deeper poverty with less chance of emerging from
it *and* then being told that it was their own moral faults which were
to blame; the communities which had their primary or sole means of
economic survival pulled out from under them for reasons of spiteful
ideology (and which have never come close to recovering); all those who
dared to try live in ways which were different to the prevailing norms
as defined by Paul Johnson, Jim Davidson and The Sun; others who were
also victims of police forces who allowed themselves gleefully to be
turned into private militias for corporations; and anyone else on the
receiving end of a tabloid culture allowed to go feral because it suited
her and her fellow extremists for it to do so.

From a society which - for all its faults - had some vestiges of a
sense of what was fair and honest, we have become one which is dominated
by the rule of sociopaths, where even simple human compassion is seen
either as pathetically 'weak', as something we can't 'afford' if we are
to be dynamic, thrusting and entrepreneurial, or as an opportunity to
sell virtue back to us at £1000 per ounce.

She was the primary enabler of all of this (not just here, either; she
was the main mentor of Ruinous Ronnie amongst others).

I wish I still believed (in as much as I ever did) in Hell.

'De mortuis non nisi bonum' can kiss my arse on this occasion.

--
Regards

Nigel Stapley

www.thejudge.me.uk

<reply-to will bounce>

[daniel goldsmith]

On 2013-04-08, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <Ps-dnW3psqkGdP_M...@brightview.co.uk>

> Nigel Stapley <un...@judgemental.plus.com> wrote:
>
>
>> She was the primary enabler of all of this (not just here, either; she
>> was the main mentor of Ruinous Ronnie amongst others).
>
>> I wish I still believed (in as much as I ever did) in Hell.
>
>> 'De mortuis non nisi bonum' can kiss my arse on this occasion.
>

> Hear, Hear!

As Ken Livingstone opined this evening:

She created today's housing crisis. She created the banking crisis. And she
created the benefits crisis. It was her government that started putting
people on incapacity benefit rather than register them as unemployed because
the Britain she inherited was broadly full employment. She decided when she
wrote off our manufacturing industry that she could live with two or three
million unemployed, and the benefits bill, the legacy of that, we are
struggling with today. In actual fact, every real problem we face today is
the legacy of the fact that she was fundamentally wrong.

No great loss.

--
Protected by their camouflage, the New International Militant Hedgehogs
__o __o __o __o (NIMH) Approach their Target
'/ '/ '/ '/ _____________________________________________________
*Daniel Goldsmith. Reply-to/Homepage in Headers*

[GaryN]

daniel goldsmith <dg...@ascraeus.bongley.net.invalid> wrote in
news:slrnkm681u...@ascraeus.bongley.net:

>
> On 2013-04-08, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> In message <Ps-dnW3psqkGdP_M...@brightview.co.uk>
>> Nigel Stapley <un...@judgemental.plus.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> She was the primary enabler of all of this (not just here, either;
>>> she was the main mentor of Ruinous Ronnie amongst others).
>>
>>> I wish I still believed (in as much as I ever did) in Hell.
>>
>>> 'De mortuis non nisi bonum' can kiss my arse on this occasion.
>>
>> Hear, Hear!
>
> As Ken Livingstone opined this evening:
>
> She created today's housing crisis. She created the banking crisis.
> And she created the benefits crisis. It was her government that
> started putting people on incapacity benefit rather than register them
> as unemployed because the Britain she inherited was broadly full
> employment. She decided when she wrote off our manufacturing industry
> that she could live with two or three million unemployed, and the
> benefits bill, the legacy of that, we are struggling with today. In
> actual fact, every real problem we face today is the legacy of the
> fact that she was fundamentally wrong.
>
> No great loss.
>

Not forgetting she left the place in such a shit awful mess that Tony
Blair seemed like a good idea. That was truly unforgiveable.

[Larry Moore]

On 2013-04-08, daniel goldsmith <dg...@ascraeus.bongley.net.invalid> wrote:
>
> On 2013-04-08, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> In message <Ps-dnW3psqkGdP_M...@brightview.co.uk>
>> Nigel Stapley <un...@judgemental.plus.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> She was the primary enabler of all of this (not just here, either; she
>>> was the main mentor of Ruinous Ronnie amongst others).
>>
>>> I wish I still believed (in as much as I ever did) in Hell.
>>
>>> 'De mortuis non nisi bonum' can kiss my arse on this occasion.
>>
>> Hear, Hear!
>
> As Ken Livingstone opined this evening:
>
> She created today's housing crisis. She created the banking crisis. And she
> created the benefits crisis. It was her government that started putting
> people on incapacity benefit rather than register them as unemployed because
> the Britain she inherited was broadly full employment. She decided when she
> wrote off our manufacturing industry that she could live with two or three
> million unemployed, and the benefits bill, the legacy of that, we are
> struggling with today. In actual fact, every real problem we face today is
> the legacy of the fact that she was fundamentally wrong.
>

Or, put more simply, she was a Hayekian neo-conservative.

> No great loss.
>

Actually, you have to be stung before you learn to disbelieve the
carefully crafted neo-con propaganda. It's so plausible-sounding when
it's proposed (it was called the "Common Sense Revolution" when we were
sucked into trying it provincially.)

Our present federal government is only willing to go to 'neo-con lite'
as they know that to go any faster/further would put them, again, into
the political wilderness.

That party was reduced to a two-Riding caucus the last time they
had power and mis-stepped to the Right.

[Lesley Weston]

And it may well happen again, but only if either Mulcair or Trudeau gets
his act together. Something that doesn't look too likely just now, with
both of them making vague promises that don't go beyond "things would be
better under me".

[Larry Moore]

Oh, the 'Vision' thing. I think Obama demonstrated that it's possible to
defang the mass media attack ads from the old-style politicos by
communicating through the horizontal social media.

I hope someone in either party had people on-site, studying the Obama
campaigns.

[nought]

Larry Moore wrote:
> My sympathy - we passed 'Peak Colourful' in 1967 and probably shan't see
> her like again.
>
>

My Take on the whole affair....


http://pragmocracy.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/margaret-thatchers-wake/

[Larry Moore]

Quite. What makes Mark Anthony's 'Friends, Romans, Countrymen' speech
in Julius Caesar so dramatically striking is that it violates the
funereal truce and was blatantly political.

It's not that we "don't speak ill of the dead" but that we search
our hearts to find some positive contribution they made during their
lives. AFAICT Lady Thatcher was an effective leader during the
Falkland Islands / Malvinas conflict. umm ... umm ... umm ... she liked
pets and got a cat from a rescue shelter ... was provident and thrifty
so left a comfortable net worth in her little tin box.

--
"With what confusion thinking's fraught!
I sometimes think I'll think no more.
For when I spend much time in thought
I unthink things I thought before."

[GaryN]

Larry Moore <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:kk65ih$2fk$1...@dont-email.me:

> On 2013-04-11, nought <nou...@nought.com> wrote:
>> Larry Moore wrote:
>>> My sympathy - we passed 'Peak Colourful' in 1967 and probably shan't
>>> see her like again.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> My Take on the whole affair....
>>
>>
>> http://pragmocracy.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/margaret-thatchers-wake/
>
> Quite. What makes Mark Anthony's 'Friends, Romans, Countrymen' speech
> in Julius Caesar so dramatically striking is that it violates the
> funereal truce and was blatantly political.
>
> It's not that we "don't speak ill of the dead" but that we search
> our hearts to find some positive contribution they made during their
> lives. AFAICT Lady Thatcher was an effective leader during the
> Falkland Islands / Malvinas conflict.

Errrr, yes but

"It has been confirmed that Argentine President Cristina Fernandez de
Kirchner will not be invited (to the funeral)."

I personally would have invited the bitch just to rub it in. It's what
the other bitch would have wanted.

[Larry Moore]

Ah, but will de Kirchner attend the interment, or plan to vacation in
England, in the next few years? It shouldn't be necessary to actually
dance - a pebble would be sufficient.

I believe that, some years ago, her family had to admit that Lady
Thatcher (like her friend Ronald Reagan,) was suffering from a progressive
dementia. The stroke that killed her was probably a grace and a release.

--
Josephin Peladan, the 19th-century French occultist liked to say that
society is an anonymous enterprise for living a life of secondhand
emotions.
John Michael Greer

[Lesley Weston]

I can't agree (but perhaps you guessed that). A demon doesn't turn into
an angel instantly just because she died. What she did isn't undone by
her death, unfortunately, so her victims are under no obligation to make
nice. To paraphrase Eric on FB (I can't remember the pome word for word,
sadly): "Maggie, I'm alive and you're dead. Nuff said". Poor form is
really not relevant in this case; nil nisi is an empty, meaningless
gesture anyway.

[Lesley Weston]

On 04-11-13 4:08 AM, Larry Moore wrote:
> On 2013-04-11, nought <nou...@nought.com> wrote:
>> Larry Moore wrote:
>>> My sympathy - we passed 'Peak Colourful' in 1967 and probably shan't see
>>> her like again.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> My Take on the whole affair....
>>
>>
>> http://pragmocracy.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/margaret-thatchers-wake/
>
> Quite. What makes Mark Anthony's 'Friends, Romans, Countrymen' speech
> in Julius Caesar so dramatically striking is that it violates the
> funereal truce and was blatantly political.

And Thatcherism doesn't violate anything?

>
> It's not that we "don't speak ill of the dead" but that we search
> our hearts to find some positive contribution they made during their
> lives.

Still searching...

> AFAICT Lady Thatcher was an effective leader during the
> Falkland Islands / Malvinas conflict.

Which she caused. It wouldn't have happened if she hadn't recalled the
gun boat that was stationed there.

> umm ... umm ... umm ... she liked
> pets and got a cat from a rescue shelter ...

Yes, but then she restricted its diet and constantly told it that it was
a worthless scrounger.

> was provident and thrifty
> so left a comfortable net worth in her little tin box.
>

At other people's expense.

[Lesley Weston]

No, that's a sign of respect. Something that was in short supply
anywhere that MT made an appearance or took any action.

>
> I believe that, some years ago, her family had to admit that Lady
> Thatcher (like her friend Ronald Reagan,) was suffering from a progressive
> dementia. The stroke that killed her was probably a grace and a release.
>

Yes OK, that's my limit too. Nobody deserves that, not even the most
evil woman in contemporary history, far worse than Reagan ever was.

[Paul Jamison]

"GaryN" <webm...@oxtoyrun.org.uk> wrote in message
news:XnsA19F7EB59FBF8...@216.196.109.145...

The other bitch would have wanted her funeral privatized, wouldn't she?
Who's paying for it, instead?

Paul

[Nigel Stapley]

Well, I might as well back shyly into the limelight myself (although the
meat of my views can be found in the two earlier pieces linked from this
one):

http://www.thejudge.me.uk/Rants/Rants_20130408.htm

[daniel goldsmith]

On 2013-04-11, Nigel Stapley <un...@judgemental.plus.com> wrote:
> On 11/04/2013 07:25, nought wrote:
>> Larry Moore wrote:
>>> My sympathy - we passed 'Peak Colourful' in 1967 and probably shan't see
>>> her like again.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> My Take on the whole affair....
>>
>>
>> http://pragmocracy.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/margaret-thatchers-wake/
>
> Well, I might as well back shyly into the limelight myself (although the
> meat of my views can be found in the two earlier pieces linked from this
> one):
>
> http://www.thejudge.me.uk/Rants/Rants_20130408.htm

Hear, bloody hear. All of what you said, and more.

There have been so many erudite people talking about this in words far
better than I could manage that I collated a tiny sample meself over at
http://www.ascraeus.bongley.net/ding-dong.html

That was done before the wonderful contribution to the debate made by
Glenda Jackson - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtClJYJBj8 - and even
in a tiny tiny way by John Bercow, who showed himself to be of far
more intelligence than i had previously suspected in the man.

If you don't want to watch the video (and I earnestly entreat you so
to do) then you can read it over on hansard.

"In coming to the basis of Thatcherism, I come to the spiritual part of
what I regard as the desperately wrong track down which Thatcherism took
this country. We were told that everything I had been taught to regard
as a vice - and I still regard them as vices - was, in fact, under
Thatcherism, a virtue: greed, selfishness, no care for the weaker, sharp
elbows, sharp knees, all these were the way forward."

That Jackson's incredibly mild utterances have been attacked by umpteen
Tory bigots as shameful and ill-mannered just proves how far this crap
of /De mortuis non nisi bonum/ has gone. This is insane - the woman was
a divisive force in England, let alone Scotland Wales and Northern
Ireland - and they're giving her a state funeral! (in all but name) At
a cost of *millions* when families are being stripped of monies because
"Britain can't afford it"???

Shameful. Shameful. Shameful.

[Larry Moore]

I apologize for the delay - we lost power for two nights and one day
after an ice storm toppled a row of power poles.

The question is not the demon but ourselves. We have the opportunity
that an edge affords if we but look.

I quite agree that the world is worse and smaller as a result of the
efforts of the movement that she was the figurehead for but even after
her death, the spokespeople from the Hayekian think tanks chatter on
unopposed as if they were the only possible 'common sense' and valid
answer to any social or economic question. The think tanks enjoy a
privileged tax position and are allowed to engage in the political
commerce backed by the contributions of the wealthy class who's sole
interest they are the running dogs and lackeys of.

Maggie was a creature and puppet, not an agent, and we would be better
served to look at the puppet masters who's hands were in the puppet.

--
. “Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off
every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Isaac Asimov

[Larry Moore]

Jackson is a brilliant extemporaneous speaker and I can't disgree with
her at all.

The Speaker of the House of Parliament, currently serving, is very fine
and fair.

[Lesley Weston]

On 04-12-13 9:23 AM, daniel goldsmith wrote:
>
> On 2013-04-11, Nigel Stapley <un...@judgemental.plus.com> wrote:
>> On 11/04/2013 07:25, nought wrote:
>>> Larry Moore wrote:
>>>> My sympathy - we passed 'Peak Colourful' in 1967 and probably shan't see
>>>> her like again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> My Take on the whole affair....
>>>
>>>
>>> http://pragmocracy.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/margaret-thatchers-wake/
>>
>> Well, I might as well back shyly into the limelight myself (although the
>> meat of my views can be found in the two earlier pieces linked from this
>> one):
>>
>> http://www.thejudge.me.uk/Rants/Rants_20130408.htm
>
> Hear, bloody hear. All of what you said, and more.
>
> There have been so many erudite people talking about this in words far
> better than I could manage that I collated a tiny sample meself over at
> http://www.ascraeus.bongley.net/ding-dong.html
>
> That was done before the wonderful contribution to the debate made by
> Glenda Jackson - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtClJYJBj8 - and even
> in a tiny tiny way by John Bercow, who showed himself to be of far
> more intelligence than i had previously suspected in the man.
>
> If you don't want to watch the video (and I earnestly entreat you so
> to do) then you can read it over on hansard.

I just have. A wonderful speech, beautifully delivered (but then look
who's delivering it) and entirely about Thatcherism and the harm /that/
did. Nothing about the woman herself, as is proper in the House. And
kudos to John Bercow too for acknowledging that.

>
> "In coming to the basis of Thatcherism, I come to the spiritual part of
> what I regard as the desperately wrong track down which Thatcherism took
> this country. We were told that everything I had been taught to regard
> as a vice - and I still regard them as vices - was, in fact, under
> Thatcherism, a virtue: greed, selfishness, no care for the weaker, sharp
> elbows, sharp knees, all these were the way forward."
>
> That Jackson's incredibly mild utterances have been attacked by umpteen
> Tory bigots as shameful and ill-mannered just proves how far this crap
> of /De mortuis non nisi bonum/ has gone.

Manners are irrelevant in this case. I find it sad that so many Labour
MPs obeyed their orders and stayed away because they didn't want to say
anything that might make people think about Thatcherism and what it
represents. Or about Cameronism and where that might be taking the UK.
Glenda Jackson's constituents were well-served that day, unlike those of
almost all the other Labour MPs.

> This is insane - the woman was
> a divisive force in England, let alone Scotland Wales and Northern
> Ireland - and they're giving her a state funeral! (in all but name) At
> a cost of *millions* when families are being stripped of monies because
> "Britain can't afford it"???
>
> Shameful. Shameful. Shameful.
>

You can add a few more shamefuls to that, along with something stronger.

[Nigel Stapley]

On 13/04/2013 14:30, Larry Moore wrote:

>
> Maggie was a creature and puppet, not an agent, and we would be better
> served to look at the puppet masters who's hands were in the puppet.
>

Sorry Larry, but that's bollocks on a plinth.

She knew full well what she was doing and why. She may well have been
vicious, vindictive, tunnel-visioned and callous, but 'a puppet' she
most emphatically was *not*. Claiming otherwise is a dangerous
distraction, rather like Michael Bentine's fatuous claim that Hitler
rose to power because he bewitched the entire German nation through
'demonic possssion'.

[Larry Moore]

On 2013-04-13, Nigel Stapley <un...@judgemental.plus.com> wrote:
> On 13/04/2013 14:30, Larry Moore wrote:
>
>>
>> Maggie was a creature and puppet, not an agent, and we would be better
>> served to look at the puppet masters who's hands were in the puppet.
>>
>
> Sorry Larry, but that's bollocks on a plinth.
>
> She knew full well what she was doing and why. She may well have been
> vicious, vindictive, tunnel-visioned and callous, but 'a puppet' she
> most emphatically was *not*.

They are not contradictory - Sir Richard Branson is a flamboyant
personality but at no time does be betray or fail to advance the
interests of his shareholders. At no point did Lady Thatcher degrade the
class of people who made her and installed her in power, nor question
their legitimacy, and she actively used her position to aggrandize and ease
their paths through life. If you believe in class warfare, it's not
automatic that you'll side with the lower depths - a self-interested
person may well decide that the deluge will come after they are gone and
that the perks and privileges fall to the 'running dogs and lackeys'.
With a net worth of L10 million, a seat in the Lords, a husband and
three sons ennobled, she seems to have chosen her side wisely.

> Claiming otherwise is a dangerous
> distraction, rather like Michael Bentine's fatuous claim that Hitler
> rose to power because he bewitched the entire German nation through
> 'demonic possssion'.
>

Adolph Schicklgruber was made and financed by the Junker class. After
the defeat of National Socialism, party members were hung but the Junker class
was left unharmed. Did we see any Krupps swaying in the wind?

--
It takes a special sort of evil to be able to get
Churchill and Stalin to ally
themselves against you.
- 'Free Lunch' AFP

[Larry Moore]

On 2013-04-13, Larry Moore <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote:
With a net worth of L10 million, a seat in the Lords, a husband and
> three sons ennobled, she seems to have chosen her side wisely.
>

s/three sons/a son/

[Larry Moore]

On 2013-04-14, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> Yeah, I don't see how anyone could think she was a puppet.
>

I'm sorry, English is my native language and I sometimes make mistakes
choosing just the right word. Too often there's more Malaprop than
Prothero present. Actor? Agent? Factor? Lackey? Running Dog?

I search for a more appropriate word.

[Gary R. Schmidt]

On 14/04/2013 10:14 PM, Larry Moore wrote:
> On 2013-04-14, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I don't see how anyone could think she was a puppet.
>>
>
> I'm sorry, English is my native language and I sometimes make mistakes
> choosing just the right word. Too often there's more Malaprop than
> Prothero present. Actor? Agent? Factor? Lackey? Running Dog?
>
> I search for a more appropriate word.
>

"Boss" is the word I think you are looking for.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.

[Lesley Weston]

On 04-13-13 6:30 AM, Larry Moore wrote:
> On 2013-04-11, Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04-10-13 11:25 PM, nought wrote:
>>> Larry Moore wrote:
>>>> My sympathy - we passed 'Peak Colourful' in 1967 and probably shan't see
>>>> her like again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> My Take on the whole affair....
>>>
>>>
>>> http://pragmocracy.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/margaret-thatchers-wake/
>>
>> I can't agree (but perhaps you guessed that). A demon doesn't turn into
>> an angel instantly just because she died. What she did isn't undone by
>> her death, unfortunately, so her victims are under no obligation to make
>> nice. To paraphrase Eric on FB (I can't remember the pome word for word,
>> sadly): "Maggie, I'm alive and you're dead. Nuff said". Poor form is
>> really not relevant in this case; nil nisi is an empty, meaningless
>> gesture anyway.
>>
>> Lesley.
>>
>
> I apologize for the delay - we lost power for two nights and one day
> after an ice storm toppled a row of power poles.

That's awful! How did you survive a Northern Ontario non-spring without
power? I'm glad you did, anyway.

>
> The question is not the demon but ourselves. We have the opportunity
> that an edge affords if we but look.

But we also have an opportunity to vent a little of our frustration with
the situation she created, and the added bonus that so doing doesn't
harm anyone.

>
> I quite agree that the world is worse and smaller as a result of the
> efforts of the movement that she was the figurehead for but even after
> her death, the spokespeople from the Hayekian think tanks chatter on
> unopposed as if they were the only possible 'common sense' and valid
> answer to any social or economic question. The think tanks enjoy a
> privileged tax position and are allowed to engage in the political
> commerce backed by the contributions of the wealthy class who's sole
> interest they are the running dogs and lackeys of.

Of course. But what she did then made it possible for them to do so now.

>
> Maggie was a creature and puppet, not an agent, and we would be better
> served to look at the puppet masters who's hands were in the puppet.
>

I don't think so. Even her worst enemies (and that's a huge amount of
hatred, worldwide) don't accuse her of being stupid. I think she was the
chief architect of the disaster, though of course she had henchmen, and
it just makes what she did worse that the people you call puppet masters
are still able to do what they do because she made it possible.

[Lesley Weston]

On 04-13-13 2:24 PM, Larry Moore wrote:
> On 2013-04-13, Nigel Stapley <un...@judgemental.plus.com> wrote:
>> On 13/04/2013 14:30, Larry Moore wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Maggie was a creature and puppet, not an agent, and we would be better
>>> served to look at the puppet masters who's hands were in the puppet.
>>>
>>
>> Sorry Larry, but that's bollocks on a plinth.
>>
>> She knew full well what she was doing and why. She may well have been
>> vicious, vindictive, tunnel-visioned and callous, but 'a puppet' she
>> most emphatically was *not*.
>
> They are not contradictory - Sir Richard Branson is a flamboyant
> personality but at no time does be betray or fail to advance the
> interests of his shareholders.

That's required of him by law. The law needs changing, obviously, but it
hasn't been changed yet, so his first duty is always to his shareholders.

> At no point did Lady Thatcher degrade the
> class of people who made her and installed her in power, nor question
> their legitimacy,

Of course not. That's what snobbery is: despising those you believe to
be below you and worshipping those you perceive as above you. That's why
the fake accent that she could never quite get right [1] and the handbag
carried the way the Queen carried hers at that time, only not exactly
the way; she couldn't quite get that one either.

The religious channel has just started re-showing /Keeping Up
Appearances/, and it's been long enough that we're re-watching them. I
guess it shows how out-of-touch I am that I've only just realised who
Hyacinth Bucket is modelled on. At least partially; Hyacinth does have
some vestigial sense of decency, which is why she can't help worrying
about her family even though she's so ashamed of them.

> and she actively used her position to aggrandize and ease
> their paths through life. If you believe in class warfare, it's not
> automatic that you'll side with the lower depths - a self-interested
> person may well decide that the deluge will come after they are gone and
> that the perks and privileges fall to the 'running dogs and lackeys'.
> With a net worth of L10 million, a seat in the Lords, a husband and
> three sons ennobled, she seems to have chosen her side wisely.

Indeed. So spontaneous street parties celebrating her death are in
order, and Glenda Jackson is even more of a hero than she was before.
Delaying the funeral so long by making it a State Funeral [2] might turn
out to be a mistake: Her political heirs won't be the only ones using
the extra time to organise events to do with it.

[1] And that Meryl Streep did get perfectly - not the accent that MT was
aping, but the one she ended up with.

[2] Doesn't matter what you call it, that's what it is.

[Alec Cawley]

Larry Moore <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2013-04-14, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I don't see how anyone could think she was a puppet.
>>
>
> I'm sorry, English is my native language and I sometimes make mistakes
> choosing just the right word. Too often there's more Malaprop than
> Prothero present. Actor? Agent? Factor? Lackey? Running Dog?
>
> I search for a more appropriate word.
>

I think people are disagreeing with your opinion, not your wording. She was
not a doer of others bidding, an agent of the plans of others. She was a
prime mover in her own right (ahem). Whilst there were others of a like
mind that she worked with, she did what she did from iron internal
conviction. The only person whose "puppet" she was was her father. She
admired some, such as Hayek, and von Mises, but she followed their precepts
from belief, not subservience.

I think some parts of the Conservative party, the wets, were dismayed at
the monster they had unleashed. I think they felt in their hearts that, as
any good Conservative wife should, she would allow herself to be guided by
the Men around her. They were wrong.

[Larry Moore]

On 2013-04-14, Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
> On 14/04/2013 10:14 PM, Larry Moore wrote:
>> On 2013-04-14, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, I don't see how anyone could think she was a puppet.
>>>
>>
>> I'm sorry, English is my native language and I sometimes make mistakes
>> choosing just the right word. Too often there's more Malaprop than
>> Prothero present. Actor? Agent? Factor? Lackey? Running Dog?
>>
>> I search for a more appropriate word.
>>
> "Boss" is the word I think you are looking for.
>
> Cheers,
> Gary B-)
>

"Bossy"

--
Calling terrorism an 'existential threat' is ridiculous in a country
where more people die each month in car crashes than died in the 9/11
terrorist attacks.
Schneier on Security

[Larry Moore]

On 2013-04-14, Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04-13-13 6:30 AM, Larry Moore wrote:
>> On 2013-04-11, Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04-10-13 11:25 PM, nought wrote:
>>>> Larry Moore wrote:
>>>>> My sympathy - we passed 'Peak Colourful' in 1967 and probably shan't see
>>>>> her like again.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My Take on the whole affair....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://pragmocracy.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/margaret-thatchers-wake/
>>>
>>> I can't agree (but perhaps you guessed that). A demon doesn't turn into
>>> an angel instantly just because she died. What she did isn't undone by
>>> her death, unfortunately, so her victims are under no obligation to make
>>> nice. To paraphrase Eric on FB (I can't remember the pome word for word,
>>> sadly): "Maggie, I'm alive and you're dead. Nuff said". Poor form is
>>> really not relevant in this case; nil nisi is an empty, meaningless
>>> gesture anyway.
>>>
>>> Lesley.
>>>
>>
>> I apologize for the delay - we lost power for two nights and one day
>> after an ice storm toppled a row of power poles.
>
> That's awful! How did you survive a Northern Ontario non-spring without
> power? I'm glad you did, anyway.

Northern Ontario? no, Southern - east of Michigan, about the same
latitude as Eugene OR. Non-spring? Let us say a slow and reluctant
spring . We keep kit for three days without power so we were
fine. A town within a half-hour had power restored before us so we had a
hot restaurant meal last night.

>>
>> The question is not the demon but ourselves. We have the opportunity
>> that an edge affords if we but look.
>
> But we also have an opportunity to vent a little of our frustration with
> the situation she created, and the added bonus that so doing doesn't
> harm anyone.

Venting is good.



--
"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use
as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to
use my telephone." - Bjarne Stroustrup (originator of C++)
[quoted: International Conference on Intelligent User Interfaces 2003]

[Larry Moore]

On 2013-04-14, Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> [1] And that Meryl Streep did get perfectly - not the accent that MT was
> aping, but the one she ended up with.
>

Madam Streep may be the best Method actor of our generation.

[Gary R. Schmidt]

On 15/04/2013 4:05 AM, Larry Moore wrote:
> On 2013-04-14, Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
>> On 14/04/2013 10:14 PM, Larry Moore wrote:
>>> On 2013-04-14, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yeah, I don't see how anyone could think she was a puppet.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, English is my native language and I sometimes make mistakes
>>> choosing just the right word. Too often there's more Malaprop than
>>> Prothero present. Actor? Agent? Factor? Lackey? Running Dog?
>>>
>>> I search for a more appropriate word.
>>>
>> "Boss" is the word I think you are looking for.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Gary B-)
>>
>
> "Bossy"
>

No. Boss.

"Bossy" implies some sort of frippery about it, by all reports and the
interviews I have seen with her, she was the boss.

[Lesley Weston]

On 04-14-13 11:23 AM, Larry Moore wrote:
> On 2013-04-14, Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04-13-13 6:30 AM, Larry Moore wrote:
>>> On 2013-04-11, Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 04-10-13 11:25 PM, nought wrote:
>>>>> Larry Moore wrote:
>>>>>> My sympathy - we passed 'Peak Colourful' in 1967 and probably shan't see
>>>>>> her like again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My Take on the whole affair....
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://pragmocracy.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/margaret-thatchers-wake/
>>>>
>>>> I can't agree (but perhaps you guessed that). A demon doesn't turn into
>>>> an angel instantly just because she died. What she did isn't undone by
>>>> her death, unfortunately, so her victims are under no obligation to make
>>>> nice. To paraphrase Eric on FB (I can't remember the pome word for word,
>>>> sadly): "Maggie, I'm alive and you're dead. Nuff said". Poor form is
>>>> really not relevant in this case; nil nisi is an empty, meaningless
>>>> gesture anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Lesley.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I apologize for the delay - we lost power for two nights and one day
>>> after an ice storm toppled a row of power poles.
>>
>> That's awful! How did you survive a Northern Ontario non-spring without
>> power? I'm glad you did, anyway.
>
> Northern Ontario? no, Southern - east of Michigan, about the same
> latitude as Eugene OR.

I don't know why I thought you were in the North, but in view of power
cuts I'm glad you're not.

> Non-spring? Let us say a slow and reluctant
> spring .

I don't remember ice-storms being part of the spring package, and even
on the wet coast there's been snow on higher elevations within the last
couple of days and it's icy cold everywhere in Vancouver. So I don't
care how many flowers are blooming, tra-la, this is not the spring I
signed up for.

There's a meme going around FB just now: '"Nice weather we're having",
said no Canadian ever.'

[Lesley Weston]

Indeed. Which still doesn't make her a feminist hero. She couldn't give
a toss for women's issues and she caused just as much harm to women as
she did to men, if not more. I think you're right about the wets' dismay
though, or as we like to call them "the normal, decent people".

[Jessica]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 06:33:50 -0700, Lesley Weston wrote:

> I don't remember ice-storms being part of the spring package, and even
> on the wet coast there's been snow on higher elevations within the last
> couple of days and it's icy cold everywhere in Vancouver. So I don't
> care how many flowers are blooming, tra-la, this is not the spring I
> signed up for.
>
> There's a meme going around FB just now: '"Nice weather we're
having",
> said no Canadian ever.'

<http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/canada-forum/179956-spring-isnt-
coming.html>

[Larry Moore]

The robins and red-wing blackbirds have returned; the crocuses are in
bloom. The sun is now getting up before our winter plant lights go on.
I haven't seen a hummingbird yet but we have the feeders hung.

Our trad garden planting weekend is May Two-Four (aka Victoria Day
weekend;) I remember having snow fall on the twenty-third, about a decade
ago. Yes, it melted overnight and we planted.

It's 'spring weather' - if you want predictability, try 'climate'.

--
"First they ignore you; then they ridicule you;
then they fight you; then you win." - Gandhi

[Larry Moore]

On 2013-04-15, Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> I don't remember ice-storms being part of the spring package, and even
> on the wet coast there's been snow on higher elevations within the last
> couple of days and it's icy cold everywhere in Vancouver. So I don't
> care how many flowers are blooming, tra-la, this is not the spring I
> signed up for.
>
> There's a meme going around FB just now: '"Nice weather we're having",
> said no Canadian ever.'
>
> Lesley.
>

Ice storms happen often enough that the prov gov't asks us to have a
three-day emergency kit. Most years, being downwind from the big lake
Huron makes our winters snowy but protects us from most freezing rain in the
springtime - they usually are diverted to the area of northern New York
state south of, and Ontario north and east of, the lake Ontario.

This time it didn't work and we spent the last couple of days cleaning
fallen trees and broken branches from our yard and my mom's.

A Canadian typically replies to 'Sure is nice weather' with
"Yes, we'll pay for it later."

[Larry Moore]

On 2013-04-15, Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
> On 15/04/2013 4:05 AM, Larry Moore wrote:
>> On 2013-04-14, Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
>>> On 14/04/2013 10:14 PM, Larry Moore wrote:
>>>> On 2013-04-14, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I don't see how anyone could think she was a puppet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry, English is my native language and I sometimes make mistakes
>>>> choosing just the right word. Too often there's more Malaprop than
>>>> Prothero present. Actor? Agent? Factor? Lackey? Running Dog?
>>>>
>>>> I search for a more appropriate word.
>>>>
>>> "Boss" is the word I think you are looking for.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Gary B-)
>>>
>>
>> "Bossy"
>>
> No. Boss.
>
> "Bossy" implies some sort of frippery about it, by all reports and the
> interviews I have seen with her, she was the boss.
>
> Cheers,
> Gary B-)
>

I sit corrected.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kkgvjv$e4u$1...@mud.stack.nl>,

They have nice weather in Victoria BC during the summer and up in
Whistler and on Vancouver Island. Few Canadians live in Victoria, they
all seem to be Englishmen holding on to the last vestige of Empire.
Goodness, things may have changed, it's been 30 years since I was
there.

--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kkh062$eh4$1...@mud.stack.nl>,

Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Indeed. Which still doesn't make her a feminist hero. She couldn't give
> a toss for women's issues and she caused just as much harm to women as
> she did to men, if not more. I think you're right about the wets' dismay
> though, or as we like to call them "the normal, decent people".

When it comes to economic depravation it's always women and children
first, except maybe for the cripples.

[Larry Moore]

On 2013-04-16, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <kkh062$eh4$1...@mud.stack.nl>,
> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Indeed. Which still doesn't make her a feminist hero. She couldn't give
>> a toss for women's issues and she caused just as much harm to women as
>> she did to men, if not more. I think you're right about the wets' dismay
>> though, or as we like to call them "the normal, decent people".
>
> When it comes to economic depravation it's always women and children
> first, except maybe for the cripples.
>

Low hanging fruit. When the tax-paying class are convinced by those who
have a political agenda that they are being over-taxed, exploited and
cheated, one-parent families and the unemployable are the most
vulnerable to cuts.
Before you can build momentum for tax-cutting for the rich, you have to build a
perception in the middle class that taxes are unfair and exploit(at)ive.
--
"People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the
U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant
man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless."
Editorial, Investor's Business Daily, 31 July 2009. Joke for the Day.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kkjcdr$18t$1...@dont-email.me>,

Larry Moore <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Low hanging fruit. When the tax-paying class are convinced by those who
> have a political agenda that they are being over-taxed, exploited and
> cheated, one-parent families and the unemployable are the most
> vulnerable to cuts.
> Before you can build momentum for tax-cutting for the rich, you have to build
> a
> perception in the middle class that taxes are unfair and exploit(at)ive.

Our politicians in the US are doing a fine job of that.

[Lesley Weston]

On 04-15-13 1:59 PM, Larry Moore wrote:
> On 2013-04-15, Jessica <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 06:33:50 -0700, Lesley Weston wrote:
>>
>>> I don't remember ice-storms being part of the spring package, and even
>>> on the wet coast there's been snow on higher elevations within the last
>>> couple of days and it's icy cold everywhere in Vancouver. So I don't
>>> care how many flowers are blooming, tra-la, this is not the spring I
>>> signed up for.
>>>
>>> There's a meme going around FB just now: '"Nice weather we're
>> having",
>>> said no Canadian ever.'
>>
>> <http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/canada-forum/179956-spring-isnt-
>> coming.html>
>
> The robins and red-wing blackbirds have returned; the crocuses are in
> bloom. The sun is now getting up before our winter plant lights go on.
> I haven't seen a hummingbird yet but we have the feeders hung.

I thought I saw some swallows a couple of days ago, but I hope I didn't.
There's nothing for them to eat.

>
> Our trad garden planting weekend is May Two-Four (aka Victoria Day
> weekend;) I remember having snow fall on the twenty-third, about a decade
> ago. Yes, it melted overnight and we planted.

We intended to plant tomatoes this week, indoors so it shouldn't matter.
But there's still the question of what happens when we put them outside,
which has to be done when they reach that stage whatever the weather is
doing, so we're hesitating about starting them.

>
> It's 'spring weather' - if you want predictability, try 'climate'.
>

I don't care about predictability, I just want warmth.

[Lesley Weston]

They *used to* have nice weather in those places, yes. There are plenty
of Canadians in Victoria, but English or Canadian they're all old; it's
the dullest place in Canada.

[Lesley Weston]

On 04-15-13 5:34 PM, Walter Bushell wrote:
> In article <kkh062$eh4$1...@mud.stack.nl>,
> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Indeed. Which still doesn't make her a feminist hero. She couldn't give
>> a toss for women's issues and she caused just as much harm to women as
>> she did to men, if not more. I think you're right about the wets' dismay
>> though, or as we like to call them "the normal, decent people".
>
> When it comes to economic depravation it's always women and children
> first, except maybe for the cripples.
>

Something that Cameron seems to be taking as a guideline. Thatcher's
legacy is going to take a long time to heal.

[Lesley Weston]

On 04-16-13 6:25 AM, Walter Bushell wrote:
> In article <kkjcdr$18t$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Larry Moore <sshirley...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Low hanging fruit. When the tax-paying class are convinced by those who
>> have a political agenda that they are being over-taxed, exploited and
>> cheated, one-parent families and the unemployable are the most
>> vulnerable to cuts.
>> Before you can build momentum for tax-cutting for the rich, you have to build
>> a
>> perception in the middle class that taxes are unfair and exploit(at)ive.
>
> Our politicians in the US are doing a fine job of that.
>

Not fine enough, though. The rich and their running dogs and lackeys [1]
are fighting back far too effectively.

[1] Thank you, Larry. it's high time we started talking like that again.

[Larry Moore]

On 2013-04-16, Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Not fine enough, though. The rich and their running dogs and lackeys [1]
> are fighting back far too effectively.
>
> [1] Thank you, Larry. it's high time we started talking like that again.
>
> Lesley.
>

I try to follow the holy instructions of Strunk and White (*Third
Edition*,) but I am weak and my writing is neither plain nor precise.

I thank the Chinese for 'loaning' us 'running dogs' as it's beautifully
visual.

--
Kyle Thompson (one-time denizen of afp) once claimed to have walked into
his local Waterstones, gone up to the counter, told the girl there that
all their Feng Shui books were lined up in the wrong direction, then
walked out.

[Grymma]

On 16/04/2013 15:16, Lesley Weston wrote:
> On 04-15-13 5:34 PM, Walter Bushell wrote:
>> In article <kkh062$eh4$1...@mud.stack.nl>,
>> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Indeed. Which still doesn't make her a feminist hero. She couldn't give
>>> a toss for women's issues and she caused just as much harm to women as
>>> she did to men, if not more. I think you're right about the wets' dismay
>>> though, or as we like to call them "the normal, decent people".
>>
>> When it comes to economic depravation it's always women and children
>> first, except maybe for the cripples.
>>
> Something that Cameron seems to be taking as a guideline. Thatcher's
> legacy is going to take a long time to heal.
>

He's trying to finish what she started I think... even she didn't dare
go after the disabled, children and disabled children the way this
government has... which is how all the cuts are hitting the hardest.



--
Grymma AFPOh Goddess Of Hangovers; DAcFD, BF (UU)
As soon as I can find a good position, I intend to take a firm stand.

[Stanley Daniel de Liver]

There's no healing. Just further cuts.

--
It's a money /life balance.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <ryibt.1164$3g....@fx19.fr7>,

Grymma <ne...@grymma.co.invalid> wrote:

> On 16/04/2013 15:16, Lesley Weston wrote:
> > On 04-15-13 5:34 PM, Walter Bushell wrote:
> >> In article <kkh062$eh4$1...@mud.stack.nl>,
> >> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Indeed. Which still doesn't make her a feminist hero. She couldn't give
> >>> a toss for women's issues and she caused just as much harm to women as
> >>> she did to men, if not more. I think you're right about the wets' dismay
> >>> though, or as we like to call them "the normal, decent people".
> >>
> >> When it comes to economic depravation it's always women and children
> >> first, except maybe for the cripples.
> >>
> > Something that Cameron seems to be taking as a guideline. Thatcher's
> > legacy is going to take a long time to heal.
> >
>
> He's trying to finish what she started I think... even she didn't dare
> go after the disabled, children and disabled children the way this
> government has... which is how all the cuts are hitting the hardest.
>
>
>

For all that she did, one must remember their is no word or song that
denigrates males like "witch" does to women.

[Lesley Weston]

On 04-16-13 1:31 PM, Grymma wrote:
> On 16/04/2013 15:16, Lesley Weston wrote:
>> On 04-15-13 5:34 PM, Walter Bushell wrote:
>>> In article <kkh062$eh4$1...@mud.stack.nl>,
>>> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Indeed. Which still doesn't make her a feminist hero. She couldn't give
>>>> a toss for women's issues and she caused just as much harm to women as
>>>> she did to men, if not more. I think you're right about the wets'
>>>> dismay
>>>> though, or as we like to call them "the normal, decent people".
>>>
>>> When it comes to economic depravation it's always women and children
>>> first, except maybe for the cripples.
>>>
>> Something that Cameron seems to be taking as a guideline. Thatcher's
>> legacy is going to take a long time to heal.
>>
>
> He's trying to finish what she started I think... even she didn't dare
> go after the disabled, children and disabled children the way this
> government has... which is how all the cuts are hitting the hardest.

Does he carry his handbag the same way? She started her career by going
after children, snatching their milk and thus allowing rickets to return
after it had been eradicated. But he may well turn out to be worse, if
that's possible, going on what he's done so far.

I've just read the BBC's reverential account of her State funeral
(excuse me while I go and vomit), and was disappointed that there don't
seem to have been any disruptions. What's the matter with you lot over
there?

[Lesley Weston]

We'll invent one. And we'll travel back in time to get an appropriate
song written and made famous.

[Nigel Stapley]

On 17/04/2013 15:42, Lesley Weston wrote:

>
> I've just read the BBC's reverential account of her State funeral
> (excuse me while I go and vomit), and was disappointed that there don't
> seem to have been any disruptions. What's the matter with you lot over
> there?
>

It's called "The Metropolitan Police (1) making it known not *quite*
explicitly that they would carry out pre-emptive arrests on anyone they
thought was going to organise anything, and that the slightest sign of
anyone causing 'distress' to the mourners would result in heads being
broken followed by politicised prosecutions with politicised sentences
at the end of them".

We do *not* live in a 'free' country anymore; all protest is permitted
so long as it's unlikely to be effective. Or even noticed.

(1) Or as the estimable Philip Challinor calls them, "The Metropolitan
Headbangers And Firearms Club"

--
Regards

Nigel Stapley

www.thejudge.me.uk

<reply-to will bounce>

[Grymma]

On 17/04/2013 15:42, Lesley Weston wrote:

there were disturbances at Ludgate, things thrown (which I actually
don't approve of), and silent protesters dotted along the route, turning
their backs on the procession (yaaay!) skynews.com at least have
pictures of various protesters, the BBC alas, are just toadies...

--
Grymma AFPOh Goddess Of Hangovers; DAcFD, BF (UU)

Develop your eccentricities while you are young. That way,
when you get old, people won't think you're going gaga.

[Nigel Stapley]

Goldthorpe in Yorkshire spoke for many of us:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/04/16/pictures-of-the-day-17th-april-2013_n_3092723.html?utm_hp_ref=picture-desk-live

As for the BBC, I'm glad I don't need to pay the Licence Fee anymore,
because it saves me the trouble of *refusing* to pay it; the BBC has
become a gigantic arse waiting to be sat on by anyone in power.

[Jonathan Ellis]

"Grymma" <ne...@grymma.co.invalid> wrote in message
news:1xzbt.18936$DQ3....@fx27.fr7...

Excuse me?

The BBC are not, and never have been, toadies to Thatcher or the right
wing.

-- Jonathan.

[Alec Cawley]

Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Does he carry his handbag the same way? She started her career by going
> after children, snatching their milk and thus allowing rickets to return
> after it had been eradicated. But he may well turn out to be worse, if
> that's possible, going on what he's done so far.
>

Except that she spoke and voted against removing the milk in Cabinet, but
was overruled and had to carry out the government policy.

[Alec Cawley]

[Kevin Wells]

In message <kkmccp$l52$1...@mud.stack.nl>

Respect for her family, how would you like it if at a funeral of a loved
one of yours if people disrupted it.

A funeral is for family and friends of the deceased.
>


--
Kev Wells http://riscos.kevsoft.co.uk/
http://kevsoft.co.uk/ http://kevsoft.co.uk/AleQuest/
ICQ 238580561
Ah beer. My love for you will never die.

[Nigel Stapley]

Unless it is turned into a public spectacle for political purposes; then
it becomes fair game as far as I'm concerned.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Wednesday, 17 April 2013 14:59:06 UTC+1, Walter Bushell

> For all that she did, one must remember their is no word
> or song that denigrates males like "witch" does to women.

I haven't fully considered this but I think "bastard" is
in the running.

The song "Who's The Bastard In The Black" is specifically
addressed to your association football referee.

And anyway it isn't denigrating if somebody really is
as bad as that - although I suppose it isn't really
fair to accuse her of performing sex acts with Satan
his hairy self in return for dreadful magical powers,
which doesn't seem to be involved on Discworld unless
it's something that you go in for anyway. Although
naming the Downing Street cat "Great Astaroth" stands
out a bit.

Another thing said against Mrs Thatcher's current
critics is to think of her children. Well, I have.
And maybe we shouldn't dismiss the Satan theory
so quickly.

Carol Thatcher sounded quite angry when she spoke
to the British media about her grief at losing her
mother, which would be odd, except in that specific
circumstance. Probably someone had just said
something outstandingly insensitive to her -
which also usually takes some doing.

[Grymma]

On 17/04/2013 18:29, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
> "Grymma" <ne...@grymma.co.invalid> wrote in message

>>

>> there were disturbances at Ludgate, things thrown (which I actually
>> don't approve of), and silent protesters dotted along the route,
>> turning their backs on the procession (yaaay!) skynews.com at least
>> have pictures of various protesters, the BBC alas, are just toadies...
>
> Excuse me?
>
> The BBC are not, and never have been, toadies to Thatcher or the right
> wing.

So they covered the huge anti-Thatcher protest in Trafalgar Square
yesterday? No, they didn't. It was massive.

--
Grymma AFPOh Goddess Of Hangovers; DAcFD, BF (UU)

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

[Grymma]

Quite. Had Mark and Carole had a private family funeral, disruption
would be outrageous. But as a public event we, the public, are being
made to pay for (despite 62% in a survey saying they disagreed with a
ceremonial/state funeral), and had the right to make feelings clear.
Personally I would not have thrown anything, but I firmly believe in the
right to peaceful protest. Had I been in London yesterday, I would have
been wearing red and turning my back as the procession passed.

[GaryN]

Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
news:kkmccp$l52$1...@mud.stack.nl:

<snip>

> I've just read the BBC's reverential account of her State funeral
> (excuse me while I go and vomit), and was disappointed that there
> don't seem to have been any disruptions. What's the matter with you
> lot over there?
>
> Lesley.

Errrr, let's see now.

Hordes of Metplod riot and armed anti-terrorist stormtroopers[1] with
open season declared on anyone who wasn't showing the correct reverence.

More CCTV than any other city anywhere and, of course, all the BBC
footage not shown publicly but undoubtedly minutely scanned by the
heresy sniffing Ministry of Serendipity[2] farsensors[3]

Quite possibly satellite surveillance leased from our Septic 'Special
Relationship" mates.

Doddering, senile, senior judges champing rabidly at the foam-flecked
bit to inflict "Maximum +10(years or Łx1k)" on anyone claimed to have
dissed the Blessed Saint Margaret.

That enuff for the why not?

The only thing we could really do was stay away, which I very
successfully did.

gary

[1]AKA "Metmonkey Headbangers"
[2]Sorry, slipped into Robert Rankin there.
[3]And Julian May
--
"I'm not twisted.
I'm a tortured soul in a flexible body"

The Contortionist in 'MicMacs'

[GaryN]

Kevin Wells <k...@kevsoft.co.uk> wrote in
news:687feb3d...@talktalk.net:

<snip>

> Respect for her family, how would you like it if at a funeral of a
> loved one of yours if people disrupted it.
>
> A funeral is for family and friends of the deceased.

Yup, but turning it into a big, expensive, political, dog and pony show
made it fair game. Probably deliberately.

As one protestor said "If there had just been a private service at her
local church I wouldn't have gone. But spending a huge amount on this is
obscene"

gary

[Lesley Weston]

On 04-17-13 8:27 AM, Nigel Stapley wrote:
> On 17/04/2013 15:42, Lesley Weston wrote:
>
>>
>> I've just read the BBC's reverential account of her State funeral
>> (excuse me while I go and vomit), and was disappointed that there don't
>> seem to have been any disruptions. What's the matter with you lot over
>> there?
>>
>
> It's called "The Metropolitan Police (1) making it known not *quite*
> explicitly that they would carry out pre-emptive arrests on anyone they
> thought was going to organise anything, and that the slightest sign of
> anyone causing 'distress' to the mourners would result in heads being
> broken followed by politicised prosecutions with politicised sentences
> at the end of them".

I can't really blame you then. I saw the bit a few days ago about how
anyone planning a protest was required to register it first with The
Authorities, but I had assumed that would be ignored as it would be
here. However, even though Her Majesty's Current Canadian Oppressors are
also Tories, they are as babes and sucklings when it comes to that sort
of thing, compared with the lot that you are suffering under.

>
> We do *not* live in a 'free' country anymore; all protest is permitted
> so long as it's unlikely to be effective. Or even noticed.

I was tickled by the sight of a group of people standing in neat rows
and chanting in well-ordered unison while waving carefully-lettered
signs that proclaimed them to be anarchists. Something a little more
effective and less ridiculous would have been welcome, but I quite see
why it wasn't forthcoming.

>
> (1) Or as the estimable Philip Challinor calls them, "The Metropolitan
> Headbangers And Firearms Club"
>

[Lesley Weston]

Me neither.

> , and silent protesters dotted along the route, turning
> their backs on the procession (yaaay!)

Yes, I saw that. Which of course forced the cops to turn their backs
also - even better. But in general, Canadian news reports were just as
reverential as the BBC. I was glad to see that there was nobody at all
from the White House.

> skynews.com at least have
> pictures of various protesters, the BBC alas, are just toadies...
>

Yes, I found:

http://news.sky.com/story/1079332/thatcher-funeral-pockets-of-protests

Which is a bit more like it.

[Lesley Weston]

On 04-18-13 2:08 AM, Grymma wrote:
> On 17/04/2013 18:29, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
>> "Grymma" <ne...@grymma.co.invalid> wrote in message
>
>>>
>>> there were disturbances at Ludgate, things thrown (which I actually
>>> don't approve of), and silent protesters dotted along the route,
>>> turning their backs on the procession (yaaay!) skynews.com at least
>>> have pictures of various protesters, the BBC alas, are just toadies...
>>
>> Excuse me?
>>
>> The BBC are not, and never have been, toadies to Thatcher or the right
>> wing.
>
> So they covered the huge anti-Thatcher protest in Trafalgar Square
> yesterday? No, they didn't. It was massive.
>

We got a brief mention of it here.

[Lesley Weston]

I thought was a myth that has since been debunked? But I can't remember
where I saw that, so I can't cite any more than you have.

[Lesley Weston]

None of my loved ones have committed anything remotely approaching
Thatcher's crimes. And all the ones I care about have made it clear that
when they die whoever is left is to dispose of the rotting meat in
whatever way causes the least trouble and leave it at that. That's how I
feel too.

>
> A funeral is for family and friends of the deceased.
>>
>

In which case it's paid for by said family and friends. So much for "She
didn't want a State funeral". I've just read on Sky that she planned it
down to the most minute detail. I was rather hoping for an effigy of her
hung from a lamp-post and full of bullet holes, like Mussolini; I'd have
gladly paid for that.

[Lesley Weston]

What should have happened was that Cameron made a short speech in the
House, announcing her death and saying that he personally admired her,
and then the family should have had a private funeral, as large or as
small as they wanted, but at their own expense and without any official
activities associated with it.

The fact that the Gibberment went to such extraordinary lengths to
prevent any kind of disruption shows that they are seriously worried
about revolution, which can only be a Good Thing. The worry, I mean, not
necessarily a revolution in which people could get hurt. Though a
peaceful one, starting with using the momentum from this to bring down
the Tories is different: Right on, sisters and brothers!

[Robert Carnegie]

On Thursday, 18 April 2013 15:24:33 UTC+1, Lesley Weston wrote:
> So much for "She didn't want a State funeral". I've just read on Sky
> that she planned it down to the most minute detail.

Does that include not disrupting any important debates in Parliament,
by having when "Prime Minister's Questions" is supposed to be on?

Couldn't MPs text or tweet questions to the PM so that he could answer
them anyway during the dull parts?

[Nigel Stapley]

On 18/04/2013 15:12, Lesley Weston wrote:
> On 04-17-13 8:50 AM, Grymma wrote:

>
>> , and silent protesters dotted along the route, turning
>> their backs on the procession (yaaay!)
>
> Yes, I saw that. Which of course forced the cops to turn their backs
> also - even better. But in general, Canadian news reports were just as
> reverential as the BBC. I was glad to see that there was nobody at all
> from the White House.

But they did have the cream of the Western world's war criminals:
Kissinger, Cheney, Blair and Netanyahu. All safe in the knowledge that
the cops would blow the head off the shoulders of any upright citizen
attempting to make a citizen's arrest and hand them over to the ICC.

[Jessica]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 07:24:33 -0700, Lesley Weston wrote:

> I was rather hoping for an effigy of her
> hung from a lamp-post and full of bullet holes, like Mussolini; I'd have
> gladly paid for that.

Can we hope that future April 17ths will become something like Nov 5th?

[Kevin Wells]

In message <8SObt.7854$dy5...@fx06.fr7>

Blame Tony Blair and Gordon Brown for this, they planned this originally
when she started getting frail.

>


--
Kev Wells http://riscos.kevsoft.co.uk/
http://kevsoft.co.uk/ http://kevsoft.co.uk/AleQuest/
ICQ 238580561

Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

[Kevin Wells]

In message <8vudnVJy1KnNZ_PM...@brightview.co.uk>

Planed by the last government not this one.

--
Kev Wells http://riscos.kevsoft.co.uk/
http://kevsoft.co.uk/ http://kevsoft.co.uk/AleQuest/
ICQ 238580561

The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

[Kevin Wells]

In message <slrnkmu2pc....@mbp55.local>
Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <687feb3d...@talktalk.net>

>Not when it is paid for by the state and turned into a huge media event.
>

Rubbish, you can have no complaints, if some one disrupts a funeral of a
loved one of yours then.

--
Kev Wells http://riscos.kevsoft.co.uk/
http://kevsoft.co.uk/ http://kevsoft.co.uk/AleQuest/
ICQ 238580561

Walk upon England's mountains green?

[Kevin Wells]

In message <kkovn2$26l0$1...@mud.stack.nl>

Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>>
>> Respect for her family, how would you like it if at a funeral of a loved
>> one of yours if people disrupted it.
>
>None of my loved ones have committed anything remotely approaching
>Thatcher's crimes. And all the ones I care about have made it clear that
>when they die whoever is left is to dispose of the rotting meat in
>whatever way causes the least trouble and leave it at that. That's how I
>feel too.
>>

What crimes did she commit apart from those imagined by the looney left?

>> A funeral is for family and friends of the deceased.
>>>
>>
>In which case it's paid for by said family and friends. So much for "She
>didn't want a State funeral". I've just read on Sky that she planned it
>down to the most minute detail. I was rather hoping for an effigy of her
>hung from a lamp-post and full of bullet holes, like Mussolini; I'd have
>gladly paid for that.
>

--
Kev Wells http://riscos.kevsoft.co.uk/
http://kevsoft.co.uk/ http://kevsoft.co.uk/AleQuest/
ICQ 238580561

But it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide

[Nigel Stapley]

It doesn't matter a flying one at the Moon exactly *which* set of
boodlers, chancers and hypocrites planned it.

[Nigel Stapley]

Is such a funeral likely to be a public display of political propaganda
at enormous expense? No? Well then, you're talking crap.

[Nigel Stapley]

On 18/04/2013 16:09, Kevin Wells wrote:
> In message <kkovn2$26l0$1...@mud.stack.nl>
> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Respect for her family, how would you like it if at a funeral of a loved
>>> one of yours if people disrupted it.
>>
>> None of my loved ones have committed anything remotely approaching
>> Thatcher's crimes. And all the ones I care about have made it clear that
>> when they die whoever is left is to dispose of the rotting meat in
>> whatever way causes the least trouble and leave it at that. That's how I
>> feel too.
>>>
>
> What crimes did she commit apart from those imagined by the looney left?

Oh bog off back to the Daily Mail, will you?

Crimes against - if not humanity - then certainly humaneness (1):

Deliberately creating mass unemployment as an instrument of both
ideological obsessiveness and class hatred?

Handing over public assets to chums (or chums of chums) so that public
money was to be used to subsidise the profits of badly-managed private
corporations in quasi-monopoly environments?

Encouraging the perception that the poor, disabled, unemployed, etc.
ended up that way through their own 'moral failings' (typical English
Methodist sermonising)?

Promoting the notion of the 'property-owning democracy', where only
property-owners (2) were thought to matter, and tenants of all sorts
were there simply to be screwed-over and dismissed for their perceived
'fecklessness'?

And that's just the entreé...

(1) If there wasn't such a word, then there is now.
(2) Somehow considered identical to mortgagees - if you have a mortgage
and default on it, you soon find out who *actually* owns your property.

[Nigel Stapley]

Hey, that's a runner! I like it!

[Grymma]

On 18/04/2013 16:06, Kevin Wells wrote:
> In message <8SObt.7854$dy5...@fx06.fr7>
> Grymma <ne...@grymma.co.invalid> wrote:

>> Quite. Had Mark and Carole had a private family funeral, disruption
>> would be outrageous. But as a public event we, the public, are being
>> made to pay for (despite 62% in a survey saying they disagreed with a
>> ceremonial/state funeral), and had the right to make feelings clear.
>> Personally I would not have thrown anything, but I firmly believe in the
>> right to peaceful protest. Had I been in London yesterday, I would have
>> been wearing red and turning my back as the procession passed.
>>
>
> Blame Tony Blair and Gordon Brown for this, they planned this originally
> when she started getting frail.

Absolutely I blame the Tory-lites^WLabour as much. Her family could have
refused all this though, and then just had a 'public' memorial service
at a later date.

--
Grymma AFPOh Goddess Of Hangovers; DAcFD, BF (UU)

I believe you should live each day as if it is your last, which is why I
don't have any clean laundry, because, come on, who wants to wash
clothes on the last day of their life? Author unknown

[ppint. at pplay]

- hi; in article, <kkp26d$28ah$1...@mud.stack.nl>,
brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk "Lesley Weston" asserted:

>
>The fact that the Gibberment went to such extraordinary lengths to
>prevent any kind of disruption shows that they are seriously worried
>about revolution

- *snurkle*

- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"in a well-governed country, poverty is something to be ashamed of;
in a poorly-governed country, wealth is something to be ashamed of."
- attrib. confucius [ref. needed for quote]

[Lesley Weston]

On 04-18-13 8:09 AM, Kevin Wells wrote:
> In message <kkovn2$26l0$1...@mud.stack.nl>
> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Respect for her family, how would you like it if at a funeral of a loved
>>> one of yours if people disrupted it.
>>
>> None of my loved ones have committed anything remotely approaching
>> Thatcher's crimes. And all the ones I care about have made it clear that
>> when they die whoever is left is to dispose of the rotting meat in
>> whatever way causes the least trouble and leave it at that. That's how I
>> feel too.
>>>
>
> What crimes did she commit apart from those imagined by the looney left?

I thought we were having a serious discussion here? I guess technically
the only actual crimes she committed were war crimes; she made sure that
everything else she did was sanctioned by the Government that she
controlled.

[Lesley Weston]

I will be happy to work towards that end. "Penny for the Maggie?"

[Lesley Weston]

On 04-18-13 4:50 AM, GaryN wrote:
> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
> news:kkmccp$l52$1...@mud.stack.nl:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I've just read the BBC's reverential account of her State funeral
>> (excuse me while I go and vomit), and was disappointed that there
>> don't seem to have been any disruptions. What's the matter with you
>> lot over there?
>>
>> Lesley.
>
>
> Errrr, let's see now.
>
> Hordes of Metplod riot and armed anti-terrorist stormtroopers[1] with
> open season declared on anyone who wasn't showing the correct reverence.
>
> More CCTV than any other city anywhere and, of course, all the BBC
> footage not shown publicly but undoubtedly minutely scanned by the
> heresy sniffing Ministry of Serendipity[2] farsensors[3]
>
> Quite possibly satellite surveillance leased from our Septic 'Special
> Relationship" mates.
>
> Doddering, senile, senior judges champing rabidly at the foam-flecked
> bit to inflict "Maximum +10(years or Łx1k)" on anyone claimed to have
> dissed the Blessed Saint Margaret.
>
> That enuff for the why not?
>
> The only thing we could really do was stay away, which I very
> successfully did.

Yes, I know, and I've already taken it back. At least there was some
good stuff in other parts of the country.

[Lesley Weston]

But none of those could be seen as representing the White House, far
from it. So the Obama administration intentionally boycotted it, which
is yet another reason to like them.

[Jonathan Ellis]

"Lesley Weston" <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:kkrktq$pdv$1...@mud.stack.nl...

Dangit, you're not referring to the sinking of the Belgrano are you?
Even the *Argentinians* these days don't call it a war crime. It was a
military battleship belonging to a hostile nation during an
officially-declared war, and therefore a fair target by anybody's
definition - even, these days, their own.

The fact that it was outside the so-called "theatre of operation" and
not heading into it is neither here nor there: the meaning of that term
is a warning to non-involved nations to keep out of the area (in other
words, "if you're outside the zone we will actually check your identity
and not shoot unless we can prove you're an enemy, if you're inside the
zone you're liable to be shot at without warning unless we know you're
one of ours".) It doesn't mean, and never did mean, that "anything
outside it is safe". When there is a declared war, a military battleship
containing armed soldiers of the declared enemy is a military target no
matter where it is and no matter which direction it is heading. If it
were in port in Buenos Aires it would still have been a legitimate
target, just like military bases for land, sea and air forces on the
mainland of Argentina would have been (and, indeed, were.)

If you're saying the whole rest of that war is a war crime... The
responsibility for *that* lies with the invading nation. Which was not
Britain. There was absolutely no justification for a military invasion
by Argentina of land which had not contained a single Argentine for well
over a hundred years, and whose residents regarded themselves almost
unanimously as British. Full stop. You can say she or her subordinates
(and indeed, more than one generation of politicians before her, from
both sides of the political divide) were guilty of diplomatic blunders
over the prior years, that gave Argentina the idea that Britain either
could not or would not resist the islands being taken: but no worse than
that.

The only other war I can think of, Gulf War 1 "Operation Desert Storm" -
well, she'd gone before it started, but she had a major role in building
the coalition that started it. But at least that was recognisable in the
"traditional" terms of coming to the military aid of an allied nation
that had been invaded, and in those terms was approved by the UN.
(Again, you could say that diplomatic blunders were initially made some
months before, suggesting that the West might turn a blind eye to an
invasion of Kuwait, but when the troops actually started building up, it
was already made clear that this would *not* be tolerated, long before
Iraq rolled over the Kuwait border.)

There is no justification to call Thatcher a war criminal. Many other
negative statements could be made about her, and depending which
direction you're looking from, some of them might even be true, but that
one is provably false to the point of slanderous.

-- Jonathan.

[Larry Moore]

I think it was more an aversion to Lord Mark - if nothing else Margaret
Thatcher could not (on her more aware days,) have been proud of the job
of parenting she did. He is barred from *how many* countries, including
the *Bush regime* USA?

--
Kyle Thompson (one-time denizen of afp) once claimed to have walked into
his local Waterstones, gone up to the counter, told the girl there that
all their Feng Shui books were lined up in the wrong direction, then
walked out.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Friday, 19 April 2013 15:52:28 UTC+1, Lesley Weston wrote:
> But none of those could be seen as representing the
> White House, far from it. So the Obama administration
> intentionally boycotted it, which is yet another reason
> to like them.

I think that could be more because of the shocking return
of terrorism - successful terrorism - to the U.S. after 9/11.

(Spraying bullets indiscriminately into cinemas, political
meetings, elementary schools, or several gas stations
doesn't count as terrorism in this context, according
to the BBC, although I've dropped a line to ask them
to make sure of this. I suppose instead it must count
as free speech.)

[GaryN]

"Jonathan Ellis" <jle3...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:kkrr0j$aoi$1...@speranza.aioe.org:

I have to agree with all of these points, and for those who would say
"It was a pointless war, we should have just let the Argies have them",
well no, we shouldn't. Start doing that sort of thing and we'll just
sit and watch while the French invade the Isle of White and the
Norwegians annexe the Shetlands.

Let's stick to reviling the old cow for all the stuff she genuinely did
wrong, Om only knows there's enough of it!

gary

--
"I'm not twisted.
I'm a tortured soul in a flexible body"

The Contortionist in 'MicMacs'