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Apr 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/15/97

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MEET THE PRESS - NBC NEWS

MR. RUSSERT: Welcome again to MEET THE PRESS. Our
issues this Sunday
morning: race, rhetoric and responsibility. In his
first appearance ever on MEET THE
PRESS, the organizer of the Million Man March, the
leader of the Nation of Islam,
Minister Louis Farrakhan.

But first, an update on the gridlock in Washington, as
bickering continues over tax cuts
and Medicare. Why can't Washington get anything done?
We'll ask the chairman of the
House Budget Committee and potential presidential
candidate Republican John
Kasich of Ohio.

And joining me in the questioning today is David
Broder of The Washington Post. And
with us now, John Kasich. Good morning. Welcome.

REP. KASICH: Hi, Tim. Good morning.

MR. RUSSERT: A critical time between the White House
and Congress. Will there be
a comprehensive budget deal done this year?

REP. KASICH: I don't know, Tim. Let me just lead off
by saying that I feel a lot better
this year about things. I like the people that we're
talking with at the White House.
We've developed a relationship, all of us talking to
one another, trusting one another.
We didn't have that the last time. And that's the
first big step towards reaching an
agreement. But let me explain the differences. The
administration basically believes
that a lot of the government we've created hasn't
solved the problems and all we need
is more government. And what the Republicans believe
is we ought to fix the
government that we currently have and don't create any
more, because that takes
money out of people's pockets, and in some cases, we
ought to get rid of some of the
government that's actually harassing citizens across
the country. So we have a
dramatic difference in the way in which we view the
way that the federal government
ought to work. Now, the question is, can they move
towards us in a compromise
without abandoning their principles, and can we move
towards them in a compromise
without abandoning our principles? And, frankly, it
may be a bridge too far. I just don't
know, and we just got to stay calm, keep talking, keep
working and see where we end
up.

MR. RUSSERT: This morning's New York Times, Mr.
Chairman, reports that the
deficit will probably go down to about $90 billion.
When President Clinton took office it
was $255 billion. His economic plan passed without one
Republican vote. In light of the
state of the economy and the deficit being lowered by
nearly 3/4, doesn't President
Clinton deserves some credit?

REP. KASICH: Hey, look, he's the president, Tim, and
the deficit has come down. But
the Republicans have controlled the Congress. Let's
not worry about that. But let me
suggest this to you: Middle- income Americans are not
getting ahead. You know, we're
supposedly in this good economic times, yet it's
taking Mom and Dad both to go to
work, not to get ahead, but just to keep their heads
above water. Frankly, even though
the deficit has come down, as you know, and the
distinguished David Broder knows,
this is a sleeping giant. The entitlement programs
threaten to sink our children and they
have eroded our ability to have decent wage increases
so that Americans can get
ahead. You know, the idea that balancing the budget
just means you add up the
numbers isn't where it's at. The simple fact of the
matter is, if we don't make
fundamental changes in entitlements and keep taking
from young working families to
give to the government, number one, our children will
be sunk in the future, and, number
two, America's families will not get ahead today. And
that's really the problem. The
growing difference between rich and middle-income and
poor in America, we need
very significant economic changes that involve being
able to be able to completely
change the way this federal government works.

MR. BRODER: Mr. Kasich, as you know, Wall Street seems
very nervous about what
may be happening or not happening in Washington.

REP. KASICH: Well, they really--they don't understand
Main Street, I know, a lot of the
times.

MR. BRODER: Do you think they misread Washington?
There's no budget proposal
from the Republicans, there's no sign of a budget
agreement and there's talk that there
may--interest rates may be going up again. You think
they have reason to be worried
about Washington?

REP. KASICH: Well, I mean, I will tell you that I have
friends that come to Washington
and they say, "Tell us the good things happening in
Washington." I say, "Well, there's
not much good to report." The good news in the country
is that Americans are working
to reclaim and heal their country. But frankly, David,
as you know, there isn't much good
happening in Washington. Now, I'm not pessimistic nor
optimistic about whether
there's going to be an agreement. We're just going to
work every day, stay calm and
see if we can reach out and strike a compromise. If we
don't, you know, the
Republicans, we're putting our plan together. I'll be
meeting aggressively with
Republicans this week and next week, talking about our
vision, a smaller government,
tax cuts, being able to liberate people, send power
back to people. But Wall Street has
it essentially right. Right now there is no
breakthrough. But, David, let's not count it out.
Let's just say that if we just keep working, maybe we
can get there. But, David, the
difference is--this is not about gridlock. You know,
one thing the public needs to
understand is that gridlock, if only done in the name
of partisanship, is terrible, but, you
know, my mother taught me, and I'll bet Tim's mother
taught him, compromise is good,
but don't compromise your principles.

MR. BRODER: Mr. Kasich...

REP. KASICH: We don't want to reach an agreement that
maintains this enormous
federal government that's hurting a lot of people
across the country.

MR. BRODER: Everything in the budget depends
ultimately on what happens in the
economy. Do you see this economy as one that is in
danger of overheating, where the
Fed might very well be justified in raising interest
rates again?

REP. KASICH: Obviously not, David. I think that the
kind of growth rates we
have--they're just too small. And the fact is even
though American workers have gotten
a little bit more in wages, the wages for
middle-income people are not growing. And if
you are poor in America, you come off welfare, your
dream is to someday get to be
middle-income and rich; you know, there's not a lot of
optimism about that. That's one
of the reasons, I think, that Chelsea Clinton went to
Africa and told young people in
Africa, "We're not very optimistic in America about
the future, and we know you're not,
either." We need to shatter that thought that we can't
get ahead, we can't do better.

And, frankly, I think the Fed has worked too quickly
to raise interest rates and shut
down economic growth, and that whole business of how
the Fed is operating really
needs to be reformed. I very much like Alan Greenspan,
but every time things get
going, and we start to reach a certain growth point,
they want to shut it down. And I
don't think that's the way we ought to go. We've got
to be mindful of inflation, but there
seems to be no indication of inflation out there in
this country, and I'm very nervous
about rising interest rates.

President Clinton told Pete Domenici and me at the
White House that we needed to
reach a budget deal because he was worried about the
economy. I think he's right to
be worried about the economy.

MR. BRODER: You told the Republican state chairman in
St. Petersburg the other
day that when Speaker Gingrich talked about abolishing
the estate tax and the
capital-gains tax that was just "locker room talk."
What's going on with you
Republicans? The leader of the House says one thing
and you turn around and dismiss
it the next day as locker room talk.

REP. KASICH: Well, David, I mean, Newt said we ought
to abolish the death tax and
we ought to abolish the capital-gains tax. I
completely agree with that. But unfortunately,
we got somebody elected president who doesn't
subscribe to that. Now, it is going to
be possible for us to get a lower capital- gains tax
and to give Americans a chance to
pass something on to their kids without being taxed
even when they die.

You know, what Mark Twain said, "There's nothing sure
in life but death and
taxes"--well, that's what you get, death and taxes.
And we shouldn't be punishing
people to take away their success...

MR. BRODER: So you're s...

REP. KASICH: ...that they had during their life.

MR. BRODER: You're saying...

REP. KASICH: So we're going to reduce it, David. But I
don't think we can get the
administration to say we ought to abolish it. But
we're going to work with the
administration and try to get as much tax cuts as we
can get.

MR. BRODER: But you're saying that there definitely
will be a tax cut in any budget
that this Congress passes?

REP. KASICH: There is no question. A Republican Party
that does not believe in tax
cuts is a Republican Party that's lost its soul. We
will have a tax cut in our budget if we
can't reach agreement with the administration. If we
do reach agreement with the
administration, you can count on tax cuts. And the
ones that you're going to see
affected are going to be capital gains, the estate or
the death tax. You're going to have
middle-income tax relief so middle-income Americans
can get something, and there'll
probably be something related to savings, like an IRA.
But if we get an agreement with
the White House, it's going to be a guarantee
Americans are going to have more
power in their pockets.

MR. BRODER: Let me ask...

REP. KASICH: If we don't, we'll have to see.

MR. BRODER: One other element in the budget: Do you
think there'll be any change
in the cost-of- living adjustment, the so-called
consumer price index figure, as part of
this budget agreement?

REP. KASICH: Well, David, it drives you and I crazy
that we haven't been able to get
the president to lead on this. And, you know, Trent
Lott's led on it. I have led on it
inside--well, in all my interviews. It's really up to
the president. Whether the president
wants to step up to the plate and do something on this
to make sure that this
measurement is accurate--I mean, when we're counting
tobacco more than we're
counting computers in terms of determining the cost of
living, that's pretty crazy. And
I'm very--I don't know. It's up to the president to be
a leader. Look, he's in his second
term. He has an opportunity to do some major things to
help the country and, boy, I
pray that he does, and we just have to see.

MR. RUSSERT: Congressman Kasich, tomorrow Janet Reno,
the attorney general,
will announce once again her decision about whether an
independent counsel is
necessary to look into the whole campaign fund-raising
situation. Should she appoint
an independent counsel?

REP. KASICH: Well, my sense is, Tim, that she should.
But, frankly, I'm not a scandal
expert. I've got too many other things I'm trying to
do. I'll tell you what the administration
ought to do. It ought to shake up this IRS from top to
bottom. You know, the story that
was in The Washington Post earlier this week that
they're investigating and looking in
people's files--frankly, when we look at tax reform,
I'm becoming more convinced we
ought to abolish the IRS because it's a very punitive
operation. It's not in the essence of
what America's all about. And, frankly, if they want
to get going on something, they
ought to shake this IRS from top and bottom, and we've
got to consider getting rid of it.

MR. RUSSERT: Finally, Mr. Kasich, before we go, our
next guest, Minister Louis
Farrakhan, leader of the Nation of Islam, heard you
speak in Florida recently. It
generated this headline: "Kasich Gets Farrakhan
Praise." He said, "There's a certain
passion in John Kasich that I believe could bode well
for the Republican Party." Bob
Novak, the conservative columnist, wrote that, "If
Farrakhan and Kasich got together,
the political landscape could be transformed." Could
you get together with Minister
Farrakhan and talk about Republican Party politics and
the future of America?

REP. KASICH: First of all, Tim, it's amazing in
Washington, you not only have to
defend yourself when somebody attacks you, but then
you have to defend yourself
when somebody praises you. That's what the
circumstance was when the minister did
say kind things about me. Look, there are many, many
people who have told me and
written me, phoned me to talk about some of the very
hateful things that Minister
Farrakhan has said. He has got to show Americans that
there's love in his heart and
not hatred, and he's got a long way to go in order to
get that done. And he needs to
apologize for some of the things that he's said, and
he needs to make it clear to
people that he is out to build America, not tear it
down and be demagogic in any way.
He's got a long way to go on that before people who
really have love in their heart and
want to heal America are willing to sit down with him.

MR. RUSSERT: John Kasich, you like to be known as a
straight shooter. Are you
going to run for president in the year 2000?

REP. KASICH: Tim, you know, I just got married, I'm
building a house, I'm writing a
book and working with my colleagues to balance the
budget. Let me take care of that
first, and then we'll just let the future take care of
itself, Tim.

MR. RUSSERT: But you're not closing the door?

REP. KASICH: All I'm doing is what I'm doing now. You
know, the Bible says, "Take
care of today. There's enough trouble today. Worry
about tomorrow tomorrow."

MR. RUSSERT: That sounds like a yes. Congressman John
Kasich, thanks very
much for joining us.

REP. KASICH: Thank you, Tim and David.

MR. RUSSERT: Coming next, the determined leader of the
Nation of Islam, Minister
Louis Farrakhan. What does he believe? What is his
mission? Coming up.

(Announcements)

MR. RUSSERT: And we're back with Minister Farrakhan.
Welcome to MEET THE
PRESS.

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Thank you. Honored to be here.

MR. RUSSERT: Bob Novak heard you speak in Florida
recently and wrote a column
entitled Farrakhan and the GOP. And he says that,
"Farrakhan is knocking on the door
of the Republican Party, the first modern black leader
to do so. But who will open the
door and sit down and talk to him?"

You just heard John Kasich, whom you praised. Jack
Kemp last night said it's
impossible to sit down with you because of things
you've said. Are you trying to reach
out and play a role in the Republican Party?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: First, let me say that when men of
high political standing say that
it is impossible to sit down with Farrakhan because of
the things he has said, should I
then say, "It is impossible to sit

down with white people for the things that they have
done"? I speak words, and I
believe my words are truth, but what my people have
suffered and continue to suffer in
America is very real. So if there's going to be some
meeting of the minds, intelligent
people should sit down--pardon me--and not give me
preconditions, but sit down and
talk about the future of this nation and the future of
suffering people in America.

MR. RUSSERT: In preparing for this interview I read
the literature that your
organization puts out and publishes...

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: ...and I'd like to go through it to find
out what you believe and how it
affects America. This is your newspaper, which comes
out once a month, and on the
back page...

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Once a week.

MR. RUSSERT: Once a week. On the back page is the
Muslim program, What the
Muslims Want. And if I can go through a few of
these--let me put one on the screen and
get your reaction. The first is in terms of territory,
and you'll see, "Since we cannot get
along with them in peace and equality, we believe our
contributions to this land and the
suffering forced upon us by white America justified
our demand for complete
separation in a state or territory of our own." Is
that your view in 1997, a separate state
for black Americans?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: First, the program starts with number
one. That is number four.
The first part of that program is that we want
freedom, a full and complete freedom.
And the second is, we want justice. And we want equal
justice under the law, and we
want justice applied equally to all, regardless of
race or class or color. And the third is
that we want equality. We want equal membership in
society with the best in civilized
society. If we can get that within the political,
economic, social system of America,
there's no need for point number four. But if we
cannot get along in peace after giving
America 400 years of our service and sweat and labor,
then, of course, separation
would be the solution to our race problem.

MR. RUSSERT: You told The Washington Times a few years
ago, "We have no hope
that we can effect true reconciliation between blacks
and whites in this country. The
answer, ultimately, is going to be separation."

MIN. FARRAKHAN: It appears that way. America right now
is faced with the same
problem that it faced in the 1860s with Abraham
Lincoln. You have a country, a great
nation, but it is divided. And so that time it was
North and South, and in the middle of
that divide was the question, "What are we going to do
with slavery?" Today America
is suffering the same problem, the racial divide, and
in the center of that, what are we
going to do about justice for the black and the red
and the brown?

MR. RUSSERT: Last year you gave an interview to Henry
Louis Gates, a professor
from Harvard, in New Yorker magazine where he asked
you whether you still subscribe
to the teachings of Elijah Mohammed on Yakub, a black
scientist who 6,600 years ago
created the white man, and that by the end of the 20th
century, a spaceship will come
and rain down upon white people and people who don't
embrace Islam. Do you
subscribe to the teachings of Yakub, that Yakub, the
black scientist, created the white
man?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: I subscribe to every word that the
Honorable Elijah Mohammed
taught us. You know, it's not unreal to believe that
white people who genetically cannot
produce yellow, brown or black had a black origin. The
scholars and scientists of this
world agree that the origin of man and mankind started
in Africa and that the first
parent of the world was black. The Koran says that God
created Adam out of black
mud and fashioned him into shape. So if white people
came from the original people,
the black people, what is the process by which you
came to life? That is not a silly
question. That is a scientific question with a
scientific answer. It doesn't suggest that
we are superior or that you are inferior. It suggests,
however, that your birth or your
origin is from the black people of this earth;
superiority and inferiorities determined by
our righteousness and not by our color.

MR. RUSSERT: So Yakub, a black scientist, created
whites?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: We believe that, yes. John in the
Bible, in Patmus, who was on
the Isle of Patmus, which is in the Agean Sea, for the
word of the Lord, which is to let
us make man in the image of the original.

MR. RUSSERT: Elijah Mohammed also said that whites are
blue-eyed devils. Do you
believe that?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Well, you have not been saints in the
way you have acted toward
the darker people of the world and toward even your
own people. But in truth, Mr.
Russert, any human being who gives themself over to
the doing of evil could be
considered a devil. And in the Bible, in the Book of
Revelations, it talks about the fall of
Babylon. And it says Babylon is fallen because she has
become the habitation of
devils. And we believe that that ancient Babylon is a
symbol of a modern Babylon
which is America. And in America, America has become a
land of people who want to
do their own thing, and their own thing is in direct
contravention and rebellion against
the will of God which makes any rebel against God an
agent of Satan.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me go back to the Muslim program. One
of the points also is
interracial marriage, and we'll take a look at that on
our screen. "We believe that
interracial marriage or race mixing should be
prohibited." Is that still your view?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Our view is that there are at least
five or six black women to
every black male. The black male is either in prison,
in the Armed Forces, in the
streets, on drugs. The black woman needs a mate, and
if the black man is a suitable
mate, I believe I would prefer that he chooses one of
his own women. Racial harmony
to me does not mean racial mixing. Racial harmony to
me means mutual respect of
one people for another.

MR. RUSSERT: Can you, as a black man, marry a white
woman, or a black woman
marry a white man, and still be in good standing in
the Nation of Islam?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: The mother of the leader who came to
North America to teach
us, Farad Mohammed, his mother was a white woman. His
father was a black man. So
where there is love, love transcends our racial
denomination or ethnicity. Love is the
great power of transformation. So I don't think that
we can say when two people are in
love that they shouldn't marry one another. But I
would prefer that the black man and the
black woman marry into their own kind.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me show you two other points quick.
One is on the whole idea of
prisons, which I found interesting. "We want freedom
for all believers of Islam now held
in federal prison and also on taxes. We want the
government of the United States to
exempt our people from all taxation as long as we are
deprived of equal justice under
the laws of the land." Anyone who believes in Islam
should be freed from federal prison
and black Americans should not pay taxes?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Well, if you look at Islam, Islam is a
religion that absolutely
reforms and transforms our life. If I might take just
a moment to say something about
the religion of Islam--while we believe that
Christianity and the Judeo-Christian context
is the most evangelical of the religions, Islam is the
most ecumenical, because in
Islam, we believe in Moses and the Torah. We believe
in Jesus and the gospel. We
believe in all of the prophets and the Scriptures that
they brought.

So when a person goes to prison who has been deprived
of equal justice, and
because of the lack of equality of opportunity and the
pursuit of happiness, gets
involved in social conduct that is against the law,
when that person accepts Islam and
their life is transformed into that of a righteous
person, we believe that a righteous
person should be freed from prison. And about
taxation, I would respectfully say that
some of the Founding Fathers of this great nation said
that taxation without
representation is tyranny, and as long as we are
deprived of equal justice under the
law, why should we pay taxes to a system that
certainly is not good for us as it is
presently structured?

MR. RUSSERT: You are heading to south Philadelphia at
the invitation of the mayor
of Philadelphia to address an ecumenical meeting,
because there had been some
racial killings in Philadelphia, both whites and
blacks. Jewish organizations refuse to
participate. Yesterday, the Catholic Church refused to
participate, and they cited some
of the things you said in your past. I want to walk
through those and find out why they
are so offended and your reaction to it. You heard
John Kasich talk about love as
opposed to hate in your heart. The Catholic Church
cited this in my conversations, and
I'll put it on the board. "We just got to tell the
truth. Catholicism has been by white
people, for white people, to subject black people to a
white kind of theology that strips
us of ourselves." That was you in 1994. And they
particularly took great offense to
Khallid Muhammad, your former chief spokesman, who
said, "The old no-good
Pope--you know that cracker, somebody needs to raise
that dress up and see what's
really under there." Do you understand why Catholics
take offense and believe that you
are bigoted towards them?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Do you understand why black people
would be upset that we
were brought to America on the slave ships run by
Christian--so-called Christians--and
while we were being burned at the stake and hung on
trees and castrated and
dehumanized, the Catholic Church did not speak out on
our behalf, nor did the
Christian church. And it was three centuries that the
Bible was locked against us.

If I might respectfully say, Mayor Rendell is Jewish.
He invited me to the city. I hope to
speak to that condition, and I would hope that the
Catholic Church would not fasten on
words while we could fasten on deeds. Do you know that
the young men who ran out
and beat up that young lady in Philadelphia came out
of a Catholic Church? The recent
incident in Bridgeport in Chicago--those young men
were Catholics. I am called a hate
teacher, a hate preacher, an anti-Semite, a bigot. And
nobody wants to talk with me
because it doesn't appear that I have love in my
heart.

But look, in the 20 years that I have been the leader
of the Nation of Islam there is not
one single incident of any Muslim being arrested for a
hate crime. Yet, the church is the
bastion of love, but all of this hate is coming toward
us out of the church. I think it is a
mistake that the church won't be present. I think it
is a mistake that members of the
synagogue won't be present. But that is exactly the
way it has been. The members of
the church abdicate their responsibility to social
justice. Something has to be done,
and the church has a very important role to play, not
only the black church, but the white
church as well.

MR. RUSSERT: Do you believe the Catholic church is
anti-black and the pope is a
no-good cracker?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: I don't use that cheap language. I
don't like that. And the
honorable Elijah Muhammad also did not subscribe to
that kind of language. I do
believe, however, that white Eurocentric supremacy has
been placed on religion, and
that's why in most of the black churches and in some
Catholic churches today they
have replaced the image of a white Jesus with a black
Jesus. And out of Christianity is
coming a black theology because they recognize that
white supremacy has permeated
Christianity and particularly Catholicism.

MR. RUSSERT: Your comments about Jews--and they also
are refusing to participate
in this meeting-- are widely reported; the reference
to it as a dirty religion. I went and
reviewed what you said and I went back and I watched
your speech from 1995. And I'd
like to play just a piece of that for you to explain
exactly what you meant.

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Sure.

MR. RUSSERT: And let's roll the tape, if we can.

(Videotape, March 19, 1995):

MIN. FARRAKHAN: German Jews financed Hitler right here
in America: Loeb and
Kuhn and Jacob Schiff. International bankers financed
Hitler, and poor Jews died while
big Jews were at the root of what you call the
Holocaust. Why don't you tell that one?

Little Jews dying while big Jews made money. Little
Jews being turned into soap while
big Jews washed themselves with it. Jews playing
violin. Jews playing music while
other Jews marching into the gas chambers.

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: Now, if you were a Jewish American
watching that, your reference to
"what you call the Holocaust," suggesting whether
there was a Holocaust, and the
whole reference to big Jews and little Jews and the
emphasis you use, why wouldn't
you say that's anti-Semitic?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: The question is: Is it truth? If it is
truth, then it is not anti-Semitic, it
is truth. My problem with the Jewish community is that
most of the Jewish people feel
that if you criticize any act of Jews, that is
anti-Semitic. If I criticize Arabs, if I criticize
the government of the United States, if I criticize
white people or my own black people,
I'm not considered anti-black, anti-Arab. Why should
anybody who criticizes Jewish
behavior that ill affects black people and their
pursuit of happiness be considered
anti-Semitic?

Last week Orthodox Jews made the statement that reform
and conservative Jews are
off the page of Judaism. I saw it not in The New York
Times, but I saw it in the Chicago
papers, just a little writing. But nobody called them
anti-Semitic. But if I said that
reformed Jews or conservative Jews are those that do
not follow the laws,
commandments and statutes given by God to the prophets
of Israel are not really
Jews, then I'm considered anti-Semitic. I am not
anti-Semitic. I do not hate Jewish
people. I hate actions of any people, including my
own, that are evil and are obstructive
to justice, freedom and equity.

MR. RUSSERT: Do you believe there was a Holocaust in
which six million Jews
perished?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Of course I believe that Jews perished
in Germany, and the
same Jews that perished in Germany while the Pope Pius
XII looked the other way and
the government of America looked the other way. Now,
there is reconciliation between
Jews and Catholics, and the government of the United
States. What is wrong with
reconciliation between those who looked the other way
when my fathers were being
brought into America as slaves, and to this very
moment have not received justice? I
think atonement, reconciliation and responsibility
should be the watchword for this
time, and I am willing to sit down with any who wish
to discuss atonement,
reconciliation and responsibility.

MR. RUSSERT: Would you be willing to retract or
apologize for some of the things
you've said?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: If, in any dialogue, I can be shown to
be in error, I would most
surely apologize. But you cannot put me off in a
corner and not dialogue with me and
then say to me, "Farrakhan speaks words that are
hateful."

If I can defend every word that I speak, and every
word that I speak is truth, then I have
nothing to apologize for. But if, in a dialogue, you
can show me where I am in error, I
am not a proud man. I will humble myself and go before
the world and apologize. But
now the burden is, will you show me where I am wrong?

MR. RUSSERT: I went up on the Internet last night,
www.noi--Nation of Islam--org and
found that With the an essay written by one of your
followers, and it said the following:
"The Jews' awesome control over American society and
government; all presidents
since Franklin Roosevelt, 1932, are controlled by
Jews." Do you believe that?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: I believe that, for the small numbers
of Jewish people in the
United States, they exercise a tremendous amount of
influence on the affairs of
government. Right now there is a tremendous problem in
the Middle East, a very grave
problem. I do not think that President Clinton is
handling his role in the most
responsible manner. As you know, East Jerusalem was
under Palestinian control until
the year 1967. After the Six-Day War, it was annexed
by Israel. It is part of ongoing
negotiations. Now, for Netanyahu to say he wishes to
build now in East Jerusalem, and
the world says he shouldn't do this, and since he said
he would build and started
moving on that, violence has erupted, and the peace
process has been brought to a
halt. Mr. Clinton, instead of exercising the strength
of a man whose country contributes
at least $4 billion every year to the state of Israel,
America has influence in Israel, but is
not using that influence in a constructive way, but
rather pays lip service to the
Palestinians while she bows to the dictates of
Netanyahu and the strong political
Jewish lobby.

MR. RUSSERT: Mr. Farrakhan, you seem to be suggesting
that what you told Henry
Louis Gates in New York--or you still believe there's
a small Jewish cabal that meets
on Park Avenue or Hollywood and tries to shape our
culture.

MIN. FARRAKHAN: I don't know why you would put that on
me. I was quoting a
Jewish movie producer in Jamaica, producing the movie
"Lost In the Stars," and it was
that Jewish producer who told me this. I didn't ask
him. He mentioned this to me.

MR. RUSSERT: But this is what you said, sir: "Who
controls black art? Who controls
black sports figures? Who controls black
intellectuals, black politicians? When I talk to
the Jews, I'm talking to a segment of that quorum that
holds my people in their grip."

MIN. FARRAKHAN: And that is true. Who controls the
movement of the NAACP? The
Urban League? Who controls black politicians?

MR. RUSSERT: Who does?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Why is it that when I go before our
brothers in quiet they can say
good things about me. But when they fear of the Jewish
reaction to any kind word--look
at Mr. Novak. Look at--he just said a few kind words
about my work, and look at the
kind of brickbats he has received. Mayor Rendell
invited me to Philadelphia, and look
at the brickbats he's receiving from his own people.
Yes, they exercise extraordinary
control, and black people will never be free in this
country until they are free of that kind
of control. And I do intend by the help of God to
break up that control so that when a
new relationship is structured, it is structured on
the basis of equity and reciprocity. We
cannot allow ourselves to be controlled by any outside
group. We must take control of
our own destiny. That is what I preach, and that is
what I believe, and that is what I'm
striving for.

MR. RUSSERT: We have to take a very quick break. We'll
be right back with more of
our interview with Minister Louis Farrakahn of the
Nation of Islam right after this.

(Announcements)

MR. RUSSERT: We're back on MEET THE PRESS with the
leader of the Nation of
Islam, Minister Louis Farrakhan. Our next question is
from David Broder.

MR. BRODER: Mr. Farrakhan, President Clinton has said
that if the United States
determines that a foreign government had a part in the
attack on the Saudi U.S.
barracks in Saudi Arabia, where 19 Americans were
killed, that we will retaliate
against that country. My paper reports today that
there is now evidence that Iran was
perhaps linked to that attack. Would we be justified
in retaliating?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: You know, Libya was bombed under the
Reagan administration,
under the alleged bombing of a discotheque in Germany
where three people
lost--three American soldiers lost their lives. It has
since come out that Libya was not
responsible for that bombing, yet Reagan ordered the
most expensive assassination
attempt in the history of the world. Now, America has
also in the beginning-- when Pan
Am 103 was downed, America said it was Syria. It was
possibly Iranian, but Libya was
not mentioned. A few years later it became a
Libyan-sponsored terrorist act to justify
the continued embargo on Libya. Now, America sees
Iran, an Islamic republic, as a
serious threat. Recently Congress voted $20 million
more for covert operations
against Iran. It is feared--America fears the rise of
Islam, those in government. And so
now they're hinting that there may be some Iranian
involvement in this bombing.
America shot down an Iranian plane with over 300
Iranians. America has not even
apologized to Iran or offered compensation. Now, she
talks about wanting to retaliate?
What kind of retaliation? It is this kind of sick
foreign policy objectives of our
government that will bring her ultimately to her ruin.

MR. BRODER: Your travel to some of those countries,
including Libya, where you
were quoted as describing Mr. Qaddafi as a freedom
fighter, has drawn a great deal
of criticism. Let me ask you this. I came across a
clipping of a speech--actually, a
transcript of a speech--that you made here in
Washington just about a year ago at the
National Press Club where you said, "As a Muslim, I
cannot pledge allegiance to the
flag. My allegiance is to God." We all know the words
of the Pledge of Allegiance. I
wonder what it is in those words that you find
impossible to say.

MIN. FARRAKHAN: "Liberty and justice for all" is one.
And as a Muslim, I cannot give
my all to the symbol of a government, no matter what
that government is. As a Muslim, I
give my allegiance only to God. And I submit to the
laws that govern this land, as long
as those laws do not conflict with my religion. That
is a basic principle of my belief, and
there are many American citizens who subscribe to
faiths other than Islam who will not
pledge allegiance to the flag. I will never disrespect
that flag. I don't agree with flag
burnings. I don't agree with draping the flag of an
independent and sovereign nation
over toilets. I don't believe in anyone not respecting
the flag of this sovereign nation.
And whenever "The Star Spangled Banner" is played,
even though I will not pledge
allegiance, I stand in respect. That is the best that
I can give to the flag, is respect.

MR. BRODER: You told Mr. Russert that your goal is to
"break up the kind of control"
that you say...

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Yes.

MR. BRODER: ...Jews now exert over black people in
this country.

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Yes.

MR. BRODER: By what means do you intend to break up
that control?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: To continue to point out the truth of
that control, and how that
control never will allow us to be full and completely
men, free, justified and equal. Why
should we be controlled by the power, influence and
money of others? We should not
be under that kind of control which limits us and
makes us act like little boys going to
Jewish philanthropists, begging them for money to
support our causes, and through
that money, there is control. And that kind of control
limits the freedom of our people to
speak freely, write freely, think freely and act as
free men. And it is that that I oppose,
and I shall continue to oppose that until our people
are completely free.

MR. BRODER: The country, as you know, is riveted this
weekend by the extraordinary
spectacle of Tiger Woods, this 21-year-old black man,
who is setting a course on a
once-segregated golf course in Georgia; that has won
the admiration, apparently, of all
of his fellow professionals, most of them white, of
course. Do you think that he is
somehow in the control of a group of Jews or other
people, or what does that represent
to you?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: I'm not familiar with Tiger Woods'
management, agents and all of
the things that go into...

MR. BRODER: Well, suppose he had a black man--I mean,
had a Jewish manager?

What would that...

MIN. FARRAKHAN: I'm not saying that that's bad. I'm
saying that the way black
entertainers and sports figures are handled, they are
nothing more than glorified
pieces of meat.

MR. BRODER: Is that how you see Tiger Woods?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: I don't know Tiger Woods. I'm proud of
his work. I'm proud of his
accomplishments. He is a giant in his field, as most
of our sports figures are. But what
I'm concerned with, Mr. Broder is, you know, America
glorifies sports and
entertainment figures who are black. Where are our
scientists? Our doctors? Our
scholars? Our people who add to the development of
civilization rather than glorifying
only those who embellish the civilization through art?
And then, of course, the
degenerate culture that is coming from some of our
artists--I am angry at that. And
Time Warner and those fellows who have our rap artists
and promote this degenerate
language, this filthy speech, this gangster talk, they
have to accept some responsibility
for this, and this is wrong. And I will continue to
speak out against it.

MR. BRODER: I attended the Million Man March and, like
many others, was
impressed by the turnout there. What sort of political
leverage do you think that that has
given black people or yourself in particular?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: In the last election, those who
studied the election said that 1.7
million black males, more than before, voted in this
election. It says that blacks heard
our message, they responded to our message. And we
hope to organize and mobilize
black people so that we can become an economic and
political force in the landscape
of America.

MR. RUSSERT: Black Americans voted overwhelmingly,
nine out of 10, for Bill
Clinton.

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Yes.

MR. RUSSERT: Is that a good thing?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: No, it is not. I feel that our people,
who were once Republicans,
were very loyal to the Republican Party because of
what Abraham Lincoln did. When
Franklin Delano Roosevelt came up with the New Deal
during the Depression and
black folk found in him a person who was sensitive to
the needs of the poor, they left
the Republican Party and became Democrats.

Now, black people are taken for granted in the
Democratic Party and not even sought
after in the Republican Party. But there is a
substantial vote that must not be taken for
granted by either party, and we hope to break up that
as well.

MR. RUSSERT: We have just 10 seconds. What do you
think of the teaching of
Ebonics to black students in schools across America?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: I think that we always have had a way
of expressing ourselves
that is, at home, different. But I think we must learn
the language and speak the
language well in order to communicate our ideas
properly.

MR. RUSSERT: Minister Louis Farrakhan, we thank you
very much for joining us this
morning and sharing your views with us.

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Thank you for the honor of being on
MEET THE PRESS.

MR. RUSSERT: And we'll be right back with more right
here on MEET THE PRESS.

THE ABOVE IS FROM THE AMERICAN NEWS PROGRAMME "MEET THE PRESS".
THE INTERVIEW WAS GIVEN BY IMAM LOUIS FRRAKHAN.
IMAM FARRAKHAN ADDRESSED A VARIOUS SUBJECT INCLUDING HIS INVISTATION BY
THE MAYOR OF PHILADELPHIA AND THE REACTIONS OF THE "HATE GROUPS LIKE THE
KKK.
HE ALSO COVER "TIGER WOODS" AND POLITICS IN AMERICA.

M.A.ON THE SIMPSON'S VICTORY TRAIN TO
"PHILADELPHIA".......................!

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From: joy...@worldnet.att.net (Joyce Roberts)
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Subject: Minister Farrakhan
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:11:19 GMT
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Hi M.A.,

How are you today? Did you take a nap? I did! :-)

This is the transcript of Sunday's program with Iman
=46arrakhan.

joyce

MEET THE PRESS - NBC NEWS

And joining me in the questioning today is David
Broder of The Washington Post. And
with us now, John Kasich. Good morning. Welcome.

REP. KASICH: Hi, Tim. Good morning.

MR. RUSSERT: A critical time between the White House
and Congress. Will there be
a comprehensive budget deal done this year?

MR. BRODER: Mr. Kasich, as you know, Wall Street seems
very nervous about what
may be happening or not happening in Washington.

REP. KASICH: Well, they really--they don't understand
Main Street, I know, a lot of the
times.

MR. BRODER: Mr. Kasich...

REP. KASICH: We don't want to reach an agreement that
maintains this enormous
federal government that's hurting a lot of people
across the country.

President Clinton told Pete Domenici and me at the
White House that we needed to
reach a budget deal because he was worried about the
economy. I think he's right to
be worried about the economy.

You know, what Mark Twain said, "There's nothing sure
in life but death and
taxes"--well, that's what you get, death and taxes.
And we shouldn't be punishing
people to take away their success...

MR. BRODER: So you're s...

REP. KASICH: ...that they had during their life.

MR. BRODER: You're saying...

MR. BRODER: But you're saying that there definitely
will be a tax cut in any budget
that this Congress passes?

MR. BRODER: Let me ask...

REP. KASICH: If we don't, we'll have to see.

MR. BRODER: One other element in the budget: Do you
think there'll be any change
in the cost-of- living adjustment, the so-called
consumer price index figure, as part of
this budget agreement?

MR. RUSSERT: Finally, Mr. Kasich, before we go, our
next guest, Minister Louis
Farrakhan, leader of the Nation of Islam, heard you
speak in Florida recently. It
generated this headline: "Kasich Gets Farrakhan
Praise." He said, "There's a certain
passion in John Kasich that I believe could bode well
for the Republican Party." Bob
Novak, the conservative columnist, wrote that, "If
=46arrakhan and Kasich got together,
the political landscape could be transformed." Could
you get together with Minister
Farrakhan and talk about Republican Party politics and
the future of America?

MR. RUSSERT: John Kasich, you like to be known as a
straight shooter. Are you
going to run for president in the year 2000?

MR. RUSSERT: But you're not closing the door?

REP. KASICH: All I'm doing is what I'm doing now. You
know, the Bible says, "Take
care of today. There's enough trouble today. Worry
about tomorrow tomorrow."

MR. RUSSERT: That sounds like a yes. Congressman John
Kasich, thanks very
much for joining us.

REP. KASICH: Thank you, Tim and David.

MR. RUSSERT: Coming next, the determined leader of the
Nation of Islam, Minister
Louis Farrakhan. What does he believe? What is his
mission? Coming up.

(Announcements)

MR. RUSSERT: And we're back with Minister Farrakhan.
Welcome to MEET THE
PRESS.

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Thank you. Honored to be here.

MR. RUSSERT: In preparing for this interview I read
the literature that your
organization puts out and publishes...

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: ...and I'd like to go through it to find
out what you believe and how it
affects America. This is your newspaper, which comes
out once a month, and on the
back page...

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Once a week.

MR. RUSSERT: So Yakub, a black scientist, created
whites?

MR. RUSSERT: Elijah Mohammed also said that whites are
blue-eyed devils. Do you
believe that?

MR. RUSSERT: Can you, as a black man, marry a white
woman, or a black woman
marry a white man, and still be in good standing in
the Nation of Islam?

MR. RUSSERT: Do you believe the Catholic church is
anti-black and the pope is a
no-good cracker?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Sure.

MR. RUSSERT: And let's roll the tape, if we can.

(Videotape, March 19, 1995):

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: Do you believe there was a Holocaust in
which six million Jews
perished?

MR. RUSSERT: Would you be willing to retract or
apologize for some of the things
you've said?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: And that is true. Who controls the
movement of the NAACP? The
Urban League? Who controls black politicians?

MR. RUSSERT: Who does?

MR. RUSSERT: We have to take a very quick break. We'll
be right back with more of
our interview with Minister Louis Farrakahn of the
Nation of Islam right after this.

(Announcements)

MR. RUSSERT: We're back on MEET THE PRESS with the
leader of the Nation of
Islam, Minister Louis Farrakhan. Our next question is
from David Broder.

MR. BRODER: You told Mr. Russert that your goal is to
"break up the kind of control"
that you say...

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Yes.

MR. BRODER: ...Jews now exert over black people in
this country.

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Yes.

MR. BRODER: By what means do you intend to break up
that control?

MIN. FARRAKHAN: I'm not familiar with Tiger Woods'
management, agents and all of
the things that go into...

MR. BRODER: Well, suppose he had a black man--I mean,
had a Jewish manager?

What would that...

MIN. FARRAKHAN: I'm not saying that that's bad. I'm
saying that the way black
entertainers and sports figures are handled, they are
nothing more than glorified
pieces of meat.

MR. BRODER: Is that how you see Tiger Woods?

MR. RUSSERT: Black Americans voted overwhelmingly,
nine out of 10, for Bill
Clinton.

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Yes.

MR. RUSSERT: Is that a good thing?

MR. RUSSERT: We have just 10 seconds. What do you
think of the teaching of
Ebonics to black students in schools across America?

MR. RUSSERT: Minister Louis Farrakhan, we thank you
very much for joining us this
morning and sharing your views with us.

MIN. FARRAKHAN: Thank you for the honor of being on
MEET THE PRESS.

MR. RUSSERT: And we'll be right back with more right
here on MEET THE PRESS.

(Announcements)

MR. RUSSERT: Watch "Dateline" tonight. Then start your
day tomorrow with Katie
and Matt tomorrow on the "Today" program, then the
"NBC Nightly News" with Tom
Brokaw. That's all for today. We'll be back next week.
If it's Sunday, it's MEET THE
PRESS.

=A9 1997 MSNBC

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