Robyn Hitchcock
salad
I realise that this is not exactly Momus related, and that there is
probably an alt.fan.robyn-hitchcock or similar, but I'm just looking for
some simple advice.
I've heard several people on this list expressing admiration for
Hitchcock and seeing as how I'm interested in hearing his stuff, and
he's playing in my home town (Glasgow, Scotland) at the end of this
month I wondered if anyone could point me in the right directions.
Good first album to buy ahead of the concert? I know nothing of his work
at the moment, apart from discussions I have seen here. I think at least
one of you is a BIG fan - is it Layna?
Any help appreciated
Thanks
Salad
--
dress me in oil
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
victorian squid
> Hi all,
> I realise that this is not exactly Momus related, and that there is
> probably an alt.fan.robyn-hitchcock or similar, but I'm just looking for
> some simple advice.
There is an alt.music.fegmania, but it's little used. The main action is
on the fegmaniax mailing list- it's split into two lists,
fegmaniax-announce (for those who mainly want to know about shows,
appearances, and tape-trading stuff) and fegmaniax (for a fairly anarchic,
intelligent and often downright silly discussion community :)).
> he's playing in my home town (Glasgow, Scotland) at the end of this
> month
Is this solo or as part of the Music Against Brain Degeneration tour?
>I wondered if anyone could point me in the right directions.
> Good first album to buy ahead of the concert?
First off, do NOT, repeat, do NOT buy the "Greatest Hits". For most
artists, this'd be an OK place to start, but in this case- what happened
was that after he'd left A&M they put together a rather slipshod
compilation of singles and b-sides of material from approximately
1991-1993.
I'd recommend the following to start, take your pick according to which
one sounds appealing, they've all got fairly different moods....
The Soft Boys "Underwater Moonlight"- a near-perfect album. It'd be a
great introduction. It doesn't bear much resemblance to what he sounds
like today, but it's as good an introduction as any to his general
songwriting sensibility, I spose.
"I Often Dream of Trains"- quiet, acoustic, spare. Very wistful and
poetic. Definitely an autumnal sort of record.
"Fegmania"- gender confusion, surreal poetry, love and loss, set to an
appealing and catchy neo-psychedelic soundtrack.
"Moss Elixir"- probably the closest of these to what RH sounds like today.
Some of the loveliest songs he's ever written. Tends towards Byrds-ish and
Beatles-ish harmonies, with a bit of Celtic folk thrown in. "DeChirico
Street", "Filthy Bird", and "You and Oblivion" are some of my favorite RH
songs.
>I think at least one of you is a BIG fan - is it Layna?
There are a few fans here, but I think I probably qualify as the BIG fan
you were thinking of :).
Love on ya,
v. squid
--
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you odd."
- Flannery O'Connor
dyeatribe
>
>
> Good first album to buy ahead of the concert? I know nothing of his work
> one of you is a BIG fan - is it Layna?
> Thanks
But hey, my advice is don't buy any before the show. Songs like The Yip
Song, The Man With The Lightbulb Head and Egyptian Queen which are live
favourites, would be infinately more entertaining first time live.
Reminds me of those legendary 18 Wheeler concerts, when the only way to
hear their new album Year Zero, was to go and see them. I was sort of
disappointed with the final album!
If you can find "Underwater Moonlight" (coupled with "Can Of Bees, Two
Halves For The Price Of One") you've done well, although he rarely
features Soft Boys material live. Well not on the ocassions I have seen
him). Your more likely to hear our boy play songs " The Man From Your
Street"! But if you're sure you're gonna buy before you gig, then "Gotta
Let This Hen Out" would probably be the best preview.
Best album? I enjoy "Fegmania" of most. "Element Of Light" is less Syd
Barrett and more House Of Love.
I can remeber when he supported the Rain Parade. RP got boo'd off!
Robert
enjoying again A Thin Red Line, TV 21. (Having a vinyl binge).
Noah Wildman
almost a decade before discovering Momus. RH has a somewhat long and varied
career, so to point to one and say that represents his best is a little bit
faulty.
Best mellow acousticy - I Often Dream of Trains
Best poppy - Jewels for Sophia (his new one by the way)
Best rocking - Black Snake Diamond Role (his first solo effort)
Worst - Perspex Island (but even that has some goodies on it)
Divine Comedy I love, but Magnetic Fields leave me a bit wanting.
-Noah
James Dawson wrote:
> In article <7r114o$1mh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> salad <let...@excite.co.uk> wrote:
> > I've heard several people on this list expressing admiration for
> > Hitchcock and seeing as how I'm interested in hearing his stuff, and
> > he's playing in my home town (Glasgow, Scotland) at the end of this
> > month I wondered if anyone could point me in the right directions.
> > Good first album to buy ahead of the concert? I know nothing of his work
> > at the moment, apart from discussions I have seen here.
>
> No insult to any post-ers here is intended -- to each his own tastes, and
> it's all subjective anyhow -- but you should take all "if you like Momus,
> then you'll like (fill in other artist)" discussions with a grain of
> salt.
>
> Personally, I like Momus a lot, but I don't really care for either Robyn
> Hitchcock or Magnetic Fields (to name another artist who has been
> recommended by Momus fans on this newsgroup). I can take or leave Divine
> Comedy (yet another newsgroup recommendation). I would put none of them
> in the "Momus" category. That's a category of one, really.
>
> But hey, if you want to hear a great CD, get the new Craig Armstrong
> disc. It's absolutely nothing like Momus...but who cares?
>
> --James Dawson
Layna Andersen
salad <let...@excite.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7r114o$1mh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> I think at least
> one of you is a BIG fan - is it Layna?
I'm not the biggest -- that's our V. Squid -- but I'm a good-sized one, and
have the advantage of having seen him about seven hours ago! He played
acoustic and alone, a marvelous set at two in the afternoon to a large and
enthusiastic crowd in the Opera House as part of Seattle's Bumbershoot
festival. This seems to be a kind of second home to him; he's going to be
back already in November, and has dedicated a song on his newest album to us
("Viva Sea-Tac")! He is WONDERFUL live, lots of fun, goes on strange surreal
rambling digressions between songs, and seemed to be in a particularly good
mood this time. You MUST go see him!
Everyone else has made lots of good recommendations for albums -- I
particularly love "I Often Dream of Trains" and "Element of Light"; you
should be able to find his newest, "Jewels for Sophia", easily everywhere,
and it's quite good! I hope you find that you like him, as he's really one
of my favorites. If you don't, though, we'll still all be friends...
I wonder how Our Hero feels about Robyn?
Layna
James Dawson
Telmin
> salad wrote: I think at least one of you is a BIG fan - is it Layna?
>
> There are a few fans here, but I think I probably qualify as the BIG fan
> you were thinking of :).
>
> Love on ya,
> v. squid
> --
i would say that i'm a big fan too, but when he toured norway ten years ago
he had rather small audiences..
in trondheim he had about 20 seeing his show i think.. he was great fun tho'
claiming he was the OTHER famous hitchcock..
He didn't play or sing much then, he mostly made jokes and had conversations
with the audience.
His albums from the mid eighties (-86>> are no doubt the ones i'd recommend
(those released under glass fish or midnight music; my favourite is probably
"invisible hitchcock" ..
inge
dym...@ripco.com
I like that one a lot, too -- it's acoustic
stuff and outtakes, but it has a really
dark feel to it.
I was really into him for a period in
the mid-eighties -- I even forked over
$16 bucks a piece for two rare Soft Boys
records. I actually discovered him in high
school, when they played one of his videos
on the *USA* channel (was it "Night Flight"?)
Anyway, I stopped listening to Hitchcock
a long time ago (I always preferred his less
"produced" stuff), but out of curiosity
I picked up that K single that came out a few
years ago, and loved it.
--
Kerry
Telmin
>
> I like that one a lot, too -- it's acoustic
> stuff and outtakes, but it has a really
> dark feel to it.
>
> I was really into him for a period in
> the mid-eighties -- I even forked over
> $16 bucks a piece for two rare Soft Boys
> records. I actually discovered him in high
> school, when they played one of his videos
> on the *USA* channel (was it "Night Flight"?)
> Anyway, I stopped listening to Hitchcock
> a long time ago (I always preferred his less
> "produced" stuff), but out of curiosity
> I picked up that K single that came out a few
> years ago, and loved it.
>
> --
>
> Kerry
Yes
Ehrm...
i must confess i haven't heard any of the things he's done after the 2. or was it
third "a&m"- album... so i think i agree with you (very much so) in preferring
his less "produced" stuff.. (This generally is the case with me and artists i
like.) I still considering myself a big fan, though.., i'm too old (and/or too
un-wealthy) to buy all the records of all the artists i like.. But... i don't
have all that time to listen to music anymore either.
You know: reading news......
inge
victorian squid
> I wonder how Our Hero feels about Robyn?
I've often wondered about this. It really is kind of difficult to determine.
On the one hand, it's quite possible if M. thinks anything he thinks Robyn
is an old hippie :). And Robyn -hates- computers, which would only add
fuel to that idea. Additionally, Robyn is a big proponent of what Moby(?)
called "music made on traditional instruments"- he loves guitars (and is a
virtuoso player- this comes across better live than on the records,
really). And why do I get the feeling that he probably lives somewhere
slightly shabby, full of animals and art objects and odds and ends, where
Momus lives somewhere a good bit tidier and more fashionable, full of
high-tech gear and maybe a few, spare, very modernist articles of
furniture? I also think that....herm, how to put this......there is the
personality factor- both are charismatic, witty people with strong
personalities, and sometimes that can be like two positive ends of a
magnet repelling.
On the other, they're closer together in some respects than they are far
apart. Sex and death are Robyn's favorite song subjects, and he doesn't
shy away from writing about guts and spleens and bodily fluids, generally-
much of his lyrical imagery is surreal, granted, but often very sensual
and visceral in a way few writers even attempt. I think they'd agree that
there are too many people out there writing in cliches. I think they
probably both dislike football fans (sorry Robin! :)). They both have a
large collection of unusual shirts and a penchant for what might be called
"eccentric ensembles". They both agree that the idea that artists should
not concern themselves with filthy lucre is ridiculous and destructive.
They also both get called "eccentric" a lot by lazy reviewers- I think a
lot of the same people who think Momus is too effete for their tastes
probably feel the same way about Robyn Hitchcock.
Love on ya,
v. squid
--
victorian squid
> No insult to any post-ers here is intended -- to each his own tastes, and
> it's all subjective anyhow -- but you should take all "if you like Momus,
> then you'll like (fill in other artist)" discussions with a grain of
> salt.
I don't recall anyone having said that. I'd certainly be hesitant to. I
think the poster was thinking "hey, I've been wondering where to get
started with this guy and I've seen people talk about this person here,
maybe I'll ask them".
> I would put none of them in the "Momus" category. That's a category of
one, >really.
Well, OK. Personally I think Divine Comedy and Stephen Merritt (and
various associates thereof) are much more -obvious- choices to recommend
than Robyn Hitchcock would be, all told.
Generally band recommendation is very difficult. I have a theory about
that- I think it depends on isolating the factors that one likes about an
artist and going from there. For example, saying "you like Robyn
Hitchcock, you might like Syd Barrett" turned out to be accurate for this
listener, and "you like Robyn, you might like Viva Saturn" did not.
Because what I like (among other things) about Robyn Hitchcock is the
wordplay and harmonies and the sometimes wayward way of the melodies. So
Syd Barrett works. The vast majority of the people who would recommend
"Viva Saturn" are into neo-psychedelia sound and related nostalgia
tripping, not so much the lyrics or the writing, so that one fell flat
over here.
victorian squid
> If you can find "Underwater Moonlight" (coupled with "Can Of Bees, Two
> Halves For The Price Of One") you've done well, although he rarely
> features Soft Boys material live. Well not on the ocassions I have seen
> him).
He does "Queen of Eyes" and "Kingdom of Love" pretty often, actually. I
was very excited to hear him do "Tonight" (one of my favorites) at an
instore recently- when he got to the line "when you turn up the key to
your door, someone's been inside there before/ it was me but you don't
know what for/Tonight" he interjected "I was a creepy young man, wasn't
I?". Everybody cracked up. I think that gets to the heart of it tho- he
just doesn't really relate to a lot of that material anymore.
> Your more likely to hear our boy play songs " The Man From Your
> Street"!
Or "Circus Maximus". Which is a real shame, as I'd be really overjoyed to
hear "Lucky Like Sebastian" live. It seems the earliest he likes to go
back is "Tender Pervert", tho. Anyone recall hearing anything live
recently that goes back further than that?
dyeatribe
>
> dyeatribe wrote:
>
> > Your more likely to hear our boy play songs " The Man From Your
> > Street"!
>
> Or "Circus Maximus". Which is a real shame, as I'd be really overjoyed to
> hear "Lucky Like Sebastian" live. It seems the earliest he likes to go
> back is "Tender Pervert", tho. Anyone recall hearing anything live
> recently that goes back further than that?
Saint Seb was played at the end of a dedicated karaoke pre-released Ping
Pong gig at Londons Wag. He picked up support band Lucky 7 's guitar and
played it!
I'm sure Lawrence was in the audience holding a bag of shoping too.
Robert. Lucky as hell.
dym...@ripco.com
>
> > Your more likely to hear our boy play songs " The Man From Your
> > Street"!
>
> Or "Circus Maximus". Which is a real shame, as I'd be really overjoyed > to
> hear "Lucky Like Sebastian" live. It seems the earliest he likes to go
> back is "Tender Pervert", tho. Anyone recall hearing anything live
> recently that goes back further than that?
>
Aw, Squid, you missed it!
He *did* do "Lucky like St. Sebastian"
when he came to the Empty Bottle on
the "Amerikong" tour. I probably
shouldn't even tell you that....
--
dym...@ripco.com
>
[re: Hitchcock...]
>
> On the other, they're closer together in some respects than they are far
> apart. Sex and death are Robyn's favorite song subjects, and he doesn't
> shy away from writing about guts and spleens and bodily fluids, generally-
> much of his lyrical imagery is surreal, granted, but often very sensual
> and visceral in a way few writers even attempt.
Hitchcock is very much the classic surrealist -- biology,
both human and animal, takes center stage. I think of
how he's always making references to animals, or the animal
side of humans. His paintings have nature-type stuff in them,
too, no? So, you get this sense of people being at the mercy
of their biology, which is kind of a surrealist thing. Also,
an interest in the *irrational*, in dreams and the subconscious.
I think that may be, in part, why I lost interest in him
after a while -- in college, I was more interested in
surrealist writings and things. Later, I became more interested
in post-60s "pop" consciousness -- the surrealism thing was
just too murky for me, and didn't really *teach* me anything.
I like the surrealists value of *play* and *randomness* --
I think those are the aspects of it that influenced later
artists. But the rest of it is rather romantic, actually.
Not to slight Hitchcock as a songwriter, but I do think he's
more traditional and romantic. But I think your characterizations
are right on target.
Whereas with Momus, he's thinking more about social relations
and commerce -- there's more detachment. Sex is more of a
social thing, or when he's writing about something "personal",
it's like he never loses sight of the wider social/cultural
context. It's definitely more of a post-60s sensibility, and he's
less cynical about a lot of things.
--
victorian squid
something.
I wrote:
> "eccentric ensembles". They both agree that the idea that artists should
> not concern themselves with filthy lucre is ridiculous and destructive.
Well, apparently, according to this latest column, Our Man seems to think
that one shouldn't be particularly concerned with it either.
On the one hand he definitely doesn't like this whole "artist in a bubble"
thing. On the other, he writes rather cheerfully of not being amazingly up
on his own financial affairs and how it keeps him "youthful". It sounds a
little like "I'm above managing these things", frankly.
What goes on here? Is he espousing some sort of zen paradox- worry not
about the money, and you will create the sorts of things that bring it to
you? Can one have it both ways- I am in it for money but I don't think
it's seemly to think very -much- about it? I guess what I'm asking is- is
this divine paradox or simply a retreat from the fierce "Shakespeare wrote
for money" position taken when Stars was launched?
dym...@ripco.com
>
> James Dawson wrote:
>
> > No insult to any post-ers here is intended -- to each his own tastes, and
> > it's all subjective anyhow -- but you should take all "if you like Momus,
> > then you'll like (fill in other artist)" discussions with a grain of
> > salt.
>
> I don't recall anyone having said that. I'd certainly be hesitant to. I
> think the poster was thinking "hey, I've been wondering where to get
> started with this guy and I've seen people talk about this person here,
> maybe I'll ask them".
>
> > I would put none of them in the "Momus" category. That's a category of
> one, >really.
>
> Well, OK. Personally I think Divine Comedy and Stephen Merritt (and
> various associates thereof) are much more -obvious- choices to recommend
> than Robyn Hitchcock would be, all told.
>
> Generally band recommendation is very difficult. I have a theory about
> that- I think it depends on isolating the factors that one likes about an
> artist and going from there. For example, saying "you like Robyn
> Hitchcock, you might like Syd Barrett" turned out to be accurate for this
> listener, and "you like Robyn, you might like Viva Saturn" did not.
> Because what I like (among other things) about Robyn Hitchcock is the
> wordplay and harmonies and the sometimes wayward way of the melodies.
I'm wondering if anyone else here likes *Brazilian*
music, because when I first heard Momus, that's
what *I* liked about him -- the intricate guitar,
the soft singing voice, the attention paid to lyrics.
Brazilian music tends to be both intelligent and
sensually pleasing at the same time -- something that
is quite rare in American music, I think. Also, Brazilian
songwriters are influenced by European song movements,
and by classical (as well as contemporary pop, rock,
and blues), so the feel is often similar to Momus records.
Even if you don't know Portuguese, I'd say you'd
like a lot of Brazilian music. I only know some
words in Portuguese, but I can tell just from the
sound of the language that Brazilian songwriters
take a lot of care with the lyrics -- you can tell
by the syllables, sounds and the cadence of the phrases.
My favorite Brazilian songwriter is Caetano Veloso,
who I think is one of the greatest songwriters in
the world, period. But there are a *ton* of wonderful
musicians from Brazil.
--
Jay
>Saint Seb was played at the end of a dedicated karaoke pre-released Ping
>Pong gig at Londons Wag. He picked up support band Lucky 7 's guitar and
>played it!
I remember that. As I recall, he flubbed it pretty good! Actually, he
played the "techno" / Slender Sherbet version of SS at the Empty Bottle two
years ago (the show NOT with Kahimi Karie). That same night, my friend
Chris got up on stage with him and "beatboxed" to "Maoist Intellectual."
Very funny.
J
P.S. Robert, were you at the show he played a couple of weeks earlier
(than the Wag show) in Camden Town? As I recall, he played it that night
as well. Actually, he played a lot of guitar that night, including "Maoist
Intellectual" (with additional NME and Glastonbury-inspired lyrics) as well
as (gasp) "Right-Hand Heart!"
Robin Carmody
news:underwatermoonligh...@w020.z208176192.chi-il.dsl.cnc.net
...
> I think they
> probably both dislike football fans (sorry Robin! :)).
Hey, I can take it! But I don't like generalisations about football fans, a
massive group of people which *does* include a certain number of jingoists
and homophobes, but also includes Mike Alway, Louis Philippe and me.
> They also both get called "eccentric" a lot by lazy reviewers- I think a
> lot of the same people who think Momus is too effete for their tastes
> probably feel the same way about Robyn Hitchcock.
And they probably feel the same way about most of the music I love - High
Llamas, Cornelius, Yo La Tengo, Gainsbourg, Scarlet's Well, to say nothing
of the entire works of el Records.
robin
-------
"...the water that rippled on my face
was soft and warm and left no trace..."
Laila Amiezan / Louis Philippe, Singapore
victorian squid
> > They also both get called "eccentric" a lot by lazy reviewers- I think a
> > lot of the same people who think Momus is too effete for their tastes
> > probably feel the same way about Robyn Hitchcock.
>
> And they probably feel the same way about most of the music I love - High
> Llamas, Cornelius, Yo La Tengo, Gainsbourg, Scarlet's Well, to say nothing
> of the entire works of el Records.
You know, reading dymaxia's comments concerning Brazilian music (which I
-do- love, btw, tho so far all I have got is a 3 disc set of Jobim, but
more will be acquired as time and money allow), another similarity flashed
to mind.
I think Momus and Robyn Hitchcock, both, have a problem that very few
share in the world of pop, and it's two-fold.
Fold number one:
Different as some of the subject matter might be, they're both artists of
astounding verbosity. A lot of people aren't used to hearing this kind of
torrential verbosity in pop and don't know what to make of it. That means
their attention is overly drawn to the lyrics at the expense of the music.
I've read entire reviews of both artists that were devoted exclusively to
talking about the -lyrics- and nothing about the music at all.
Fold number two:
Another problem they share is having made the grave mistake of sometimes
being very funny, which often makes for an undue focus on that side of the
work. It doesn't matter if you've written primarily serious material, or
even if the comic material was intended to make serious points- you're the
funny guy now, buster. Let's see you get out of THAT one.
Love on ya,
v. squid
James Dawson
il.dsl.cnc.net>,
> I'd be really overjoyed to
> hear "Lucky Like Sebastian" live. It seems the earliest he likes to go
> back is "Tender Pervert", tho. Anyone recall hearing anything live
> recently that goes back further than that?
"Lucky Like St. Sebastian" was the last song he played at his October
1998 L.A. show, so you may get lucky! Having never seen him before, I
assumed that maybe he always ended with that song -- going full circle
back to his first album. I guess I was luckier than I realized!
salad
original post - I am now looking forward to the concert even more than I
was before. For those interested, I believe the set will be solo
and acoustic.
As several other people have said, I didn't ask about Robyn Hitchcock on
the blanket assumption that whatever else Momus fans like I will like
too. Rather I asked because I respect the musical and intellectual
opinions of the majority of people on this list, and was interested in
finding starting points from which to make up my own mind. And found
them I have! So, of I go with lots to explore and enjoy ...
I'm sure these 'Momus and other artists' threads will run and run, but
for now once again thanks.
Green Salad
--
dress me in oil
dym...@ripco.com
>
> dyeatribe <dyea...@easynet.co.uk> wrote in <37D577...@easynet.co.uk>:
>
> >Saint Seb was played at the end of a dedicated karaoke pre-released Ping
> >Pong gig at Londons Wag. He picked up support band Lucky 7 's guitar and
> >played it!
>
> I remember that. As I recall, he flubbed it pretty good! Actually, he
> played the "techno" / Slender Sherbet version of SS at the Empty Bottle two
> years ago (the show NOT with Kahimi Karie). That same night, my friend
> Chris got up on stage with him and "beatboxed" to "Maoist Intellectual."
> Very funny.
Were there two shows in Chicago that time?
Because at the one I went to, it was an
acoustic St. Sebastian and a "human beatbox"
to "Complete history...." (I think).
--
love onions,
Kerry
http://www.ripco.com/~dymaxia
Jay
>Because at the one I went to, it was an
>acoustic St. Sebastian and a "human beatbox"
>to "Complete history...." (I think).
Hmm. Maybe I'm wrong. I've only seen the "human beatbox" deal the one
time, and I could have sworn that he did St. Seb electronically. However,
I've seen Momus five times now (twice in London, three times at the Bottle
in Chicago), so I could be confusing things. I saw both nights of the
"Shopping" tour and they were different sets, so I could be mixed up in
that regard.
I've only been to one show at the Double Door (Alex Chilton), and I enjoyed
it. However, I must agree with you and Squid that there was sort of a
"hipper-than-thou" thing going on there. Nevertheless, I'm once again
planning on making the Chicago trek in November. Pray for me.
J
dym...@ripco.com
>
> dym...@ripco.com wrote in <37D672...@ripco.com>:
>
> >Because at the one I went to, it was an
> >acoustic St. Sebastian and a "human beatbox"
> >to "Complete history...." (I think).
>
> Hmm. Maybe I'm wrong. I've only seen the "human beatbox" deal the one
> time, and I could have sworn that he did St. Seb electronically. However,
> I've seen Momus five times now (twice in London, three times at the Bottle
> in Chicago),
Jeez, you get around.
> so I could be confusing things. I saw both nights of the
> "Shopping" tour and they were different sets, so I could be mixed up in
> that regard.
>
> I've only been to one show at the Double Door (Alex Chilton), and I enjoyed
> it. However, I must agree with you and Squid that there was sort of a
> "hipper-than-thou" thing going on there.
It's not so much "hipper-than-thou", unless I was there ;).
It's more apathetic -- there are usually lots of people
who merely *think* they're hip, and they go to the Double
Door because it was on that Best Buy commercial. It won't
be so bad -- really. I've seen the Frogs and Buffalo Daughter
there, and those were both good shows. Besides, I will get
to play pool in the basement before the show.
> Nevertheless, I'm once again
> planning on making the Chicago trek in November. Pray for me.
Be sure and say hi if you spot me!
Jay
>Jeez, you get around.
Well, not so much anymore, but I used to. I won't be going back to the UK
anytime soon (unfortunately), but Chicago's still within driving distance.
>It's not so much "hipper-than-thou", unless I was there ;).
Well, I didn't think that anyone there was ACTUALLY hipper than me, but if
you were there, I'm willing to concede that I was mistaken. ;>
>It won't be so bad -- really. I've seen the Frogs and Buffalo Daughter
>there, and those were both good shows. Besides, I will get
>to play pool in the basement before the show.
There's a basement? Sheesh, missed that one completely.
>Be sure and say hi if you spot me!
Count on it!
-J
dyeatribe
>
> P.S. Robert, were you at the show he played a couple of weeks earlier
> (than the Wag show) in Camden Town? As I recall, he played it that night
> as well. Actually, he played a lot of guitar that night, including "Maoist
> Intellectual" (with additional NME and Glastonbury-inspired lyrics) as well
> as (gasp) "Right-Hand Heart!"
Were you at that Chicago gig Jay? Wow.......I'm pretty impressed you
flung it. Yes, at Chalky Farm he played Right Hand Heart, but more akin
to the tripple by-pass production version from the Tender Chest rather
than the electro cardio graph version from Don't Stop My Heart.
Robert
dyeatribe
Robin Carmody
news:37D6A2...@easynet.co.uk...
> Jay wrote:
> > P.S. Robert, were you at the show he played a couple of weeks earlier
> > (than the Wag show) in Camden Town? As I recall, he played it that
night
> > as well. Actually, he played a lot of guitar that night, including
"Maoist
> > Intellectual" (with additional NME and Glastonbury-inspired lyrics)
What were they? I'm sure I'd agree with them...
robin (about to sell his NME collection)
-----------------------------------------------------
"hip (ish), young (ish) mudslingers..."
Robin Carmody
news:underwatermoonligh...@w020.z208176192.chi-il.dsl.cnc.net
...
> You know, reading dymaxia's comments concerning Brazilian music (which I
> -do- love, btw, tho so far all I have got is a 3 disc set of Jobim, but
> more will be acquired as time and money allow), another similarity flashed
> to mind.
There is definitely *some* Brazilian stuff available in RealAudio at
http://www.siesta.es ...
> I think Momus and Robyn Hitchcock, both, have a problem that very few
> share in the world of pop, and it's two-fold.
>
> Fold number one:
>
> Different as some of the subject matter might be, they're both artists of
> astounding verbosity. A lot of people aren't used to hearing this kind of
> torrential verbosity in pop and don't know what to make of it. That means
> their attention is overly drawn to the lyrics at the expense of the music.
> I've read entire reviews of both artists that were devoted exclusively to
talking about the -lyrics- and nothing about the music at all.
But I don't see any problem with that. With Momus, lyrics *are* the most
important thing. I'm sick of hearing so much "sincere" rock, with
"virtuoso" guitar solos etc. The critical tendency you identify is best
defined to the provincialism and anti-intellectualism of the music press, at
least in Britain - see the new Thought for the Day.
> Fold number two:
>
> Another problem they share is having made the grave mistake of sometimes
> being very funny, which often makes for an undue focus on that side of the
> work. It doesn't matter if you've written primarily serious material, or
> even if the comic material was intended to make serious points- you're the
> funny guy now, buster. Let's see you get out of THAT one.
But that's another of the things I love about Momus, his ever-changing
moods, his ability to make very serious points about homophobia, aggression,
Scottish puritan attitudes to broadcasting, etc. even through his most
apparently comic album, the vaudevillian Ultraconformist. An ability that
I, and most people here, would see as the sign of a great artist, but which
journalists at the NME (where derogatory phrases like "trendy nonsense",
"art wank" etc. are commonplace) would probably see as a threat to the
future of their
living-dead ideology of "authentic" rock.
Viva the bourgeois lifestyle revolution!
robin
-------
"We play pool all through the air raid, raid machines in the game arcade..."
larr...@io.com
and the Divine Comedy by the way.) I'd been thinking recently
about their similarities and differences. Momus doesn't include
the psychedelic references of Hitchcock. Their critical reception,
especially in how they're received in England (i.e. mostly ignored,
except maybe by Mojo -- in the case of H. zines like Bucketfull of
Brains and Ptolomaic Terrascope) and America (a cult audience) is
similar. Like many of the Hitchcock fans on the list, I went through
a much more intense stage of fandom earlier, and while I still pay
attention to his doings, I don't see every single tour anymore.
Album suggestions are as follows: my favorites are the 80s albums,
like Fegmaniax, I Often Dream of Trains, and Gotta Let This Hen
Out, though among recent records I like Respect, which is actually
fairly serious. His live shows are always interesting, due to his
skill at improvisational monologues. His songs are not as nonsensical
as they sometimes seem - and he often explains them in live performance
using additional unusual metaphors that somehow make sense.
I'm also curious as to what Momus things of Hitchcock, if anything;
the speculations so far posted sound fairly likely to me.
Larry-bob
dym...@ripco.com
>
> Robin wrote:
>
> > But I don't see any problem with that. With Momus, lyrics *are* the most
> > important thing.
>
> think it's exciting to hear so many different styles on "Stars"?
>
> Er, I dunno. I don't agree the lyrics are the main event. If they are he
> ought to chuck it in and be a spoken word artist :). I feel that that
> noise in the background there is pretty important.
>
I especially like his voice, and the way he
delivers a phrase. It makes all the difference
in the world. Quite a few poets have fronted
bands, and I don't think I've liked most of them.
> > I'm sick of hearing so much "sincere" rock, with
> > "virtuoso" guitar solos etc.
>
> Well...I'm not arguing with you, but I'm not sure I see the connection here.
>
> > But that's another of the things I love about Momus, his ever-changing
> > moods, his ability to make very serious points about homophobia, aggression,
> > Scottish puritan attitudes to broadcasting, etc. even through his most
> > apparently comic album, the vaudevillian Ultraconformist.
>
> Did I say it was something that I personally was bothered by?
>
> I mentioned both of these things as a -problem- not because I personally
> feel they're bad things. More that they are things that can lead to some
> people dismissing these two artists very quickly and on a shallow basis
> ("he's all words" or "he's that funny guy"), and I'm not only talking
> about critics. Or rather, "critics" as a couple people spit it out here, a
> large jello mass of people who are all exactly alike and out to destroy
> all the bands you like just because they can. I know some individual
> critics who are rather nice people, believe it or not.
Me too. Some people just fall into it -- they
don't set out to be a critic.
Now, how come no one has had any words to say
about the latest dispatch from Chairman Momo?
--
love onion,
Kerry
http://www.ripco.com/~dymaxia
Jay
<7r6adj$t27$1...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>:
>What were they? I'm sure I'd agree with them...
Well, I don't really remember the Glastonbury bit, although I do recall
something about sex in the mud. However, I am certain that he closed the
song with this couplet:
"If I could live my life again, I think I'd like to be
The man whose job is to stop the men who think like me, yes
If I could live my life again, that would be the thing to be
Steven Southerland, Editor, N M E!"
J
Jay
>Were you at that Chicago gig Jay? Wow.......I'm pretty impressed you
>flung it. Yes, at Chalky Farm he played Right Hand Heart, but more akin
>to the tripple by-pass production version from the Tender Chest rather
>than the electro cardio graph version from Don't Stop My Heart.
Right. Excellent description, by the way. God, I wish I had said that!
I was just curious if you were there, because I talked to a lot of people
that night. It was my first night in the UK, I was drunk, and I kept
telling everyone that I had come all the way from Ohio to see that show.
It was only a little lie.
J
P.S. How did I fling it? Would I know if I flung it?
Robin Carmody
news:7r6g2t$ktp$1...@208.29.74.48...
> Well, I don't really remember the Glastonbury bit, although I do recall
> something about sex in the mud. However, I am certain that he closed the
> song with this couplet:
>
> "If I could live my life again, I think I'd like to be
> The man whose job is to stop the men who think like me, yes
> If I could live my life again, that would be the thing to be
> Steven Southerland, Editor, N M E!"
And that bald head, fake cockney accent (see the new Thought), giving 8 out
of 10 to Reef and 9 to Gomez ... and he thinks The Grateful Dead are the
greatest band of all time!
Sutherland, fuck off.
love on ya
robin
CountV
> victorian squid wrote:
>> Er, I dunno. I don't agree the lyrics are the main event. If they are he
>> ought to chuck it in and be a spoken word artist :). I feel that that
>> noise in the background there is pretty important.
>
> I especially like his voice, and the way he
> delivers a phrase. It makes all the difference
> in the world. Quite a few poets have fronted
> bands, and I don't think I've liked most of them.
Momus's phrasing is impeccable, and note also the way so much of his writing
uses assonance rhyme, rather than 'real' rhyme, something that sounds much
better in performance than it looks printed.
Phrasing is a _very_ important part of why I will like a singer, and bad
phrasing can ruin something that is otherwise very good (Adrian Belew's solo
work comes to mind as an example).
CV/John
--
"I recognize no method of living that I know, I see only the basic materials
I may use" - 'Red Guitar', David Sylvian
design by Coercion; http://www.m-ideas.com/coercion/index.htm
victorian squid
> Hitchcock is very much the classic surrealist -- biology,
> both human and animal, takes center stage.
I'm not at all sure about that. I mean, to a certain extent, you're right,
but he spends an awful lot of time intellectualizing.
A friend of mine who has talked with him on a few occasions says that
after awhile, he felt like saying "Robyn, turn your brain off for a
second!".
> how he's always making references to animals, or the animal
> side of humans.
I know someone else who does that. This forum is named after him :).
Certainly not always, but there's quite a bit of it.
Mainly, RH is talking about sex and death, with a sideline in sexual power
struggles and psychology. Which are things Momus talks about quite a bit
too. They just don't have the same approach. You'd never hear RH do
something like "Loneliness of Lift Music", but I wouldn't be surprised to
hear he liked it.
>His paintings have nature-type stuff in them, too, no?
Sort of. They also have hats and ties and glasses and skulls
and.....stuff. They're only "nature paintings" in the sense that Magritte
and DeChirico painted nature paintings.
>So, you get this sense of people being at the mercy of their biology,
which is >kind of a surrealist thing.
I'm just not at all sure that's what he's mainly on about.
> an interest in the *irrational*, in dreams and the subconscious.
This, however, is definitely true.
> social thing, or when he's writing about something "personal",
> it's like he never loses sight of the wider social/cultural
> context.
What's the wider social/cultural context for "Right Hand Heart"? "Slide
Projector Lie Detector"? "Complicated"? "Tragedy and Farce"?
"Bluestocking"? "Hairstyle of The Devil"? "The Cabriolet"?
By the same token, there are many songs in the Hitchcock catalog which are
either overtly political ("I Wanna Destroy You", "The President","Brenda's
Iron Sledge", "Devils' Radio") or about something personal framed in a
larger context (lots of these- "Winchester", "(Feels Like) 1974", "Tell Me
About Your Drugs", "Filthy Bird", "Queen Elvis" are ones that come
immediately to mind).
Robin Carmody
> > > But I don't see any problem with that. With Momus, lyrics *are* the
most
> > > important thing.
> >
> > You don't think the music enhances the storytelling at all? You don't
> > think it's exciting to hear so many different styles on "Stars"?
> >
> > Er, I dunno. I don't agree the lyrics are the main event. If they are he
> > ought to chuck it in and be a spoken word artist :). I feel that that
> > noise in the background there is pretty important.
Of course I love the sheer range of Stars Forever ... it's one of the most
musically diverse albums I've ever heard, and one which reveals ever more
sounds with repeated listenings. My original point was that Nick is a
poet-songwriter rather than a musician-songwriter (which makes all the
difference).
> I especially like his voice, and the way he
> delivers a phrase. It makes all the difference
> in the world.
I think Gainsbourg was very expressive in much the same way ... his voice
could express *all* emotions (and not just some caricaturishly "French"
sexuality, which he's been reduced to by Steve Sutherland and his ilk).
Quite a few poets have fronted
> bands, and I don't think I've liked most of them.
>
> > > I'm sick of hearing so much "sincere" rock, with
> > > "virtuoso" guitar solos etc.
> >
> > Well...I'm not arguing with you, but I'm not sure I see the connection
here.
> >
> > > But that's another of the things I love about Momus, his ever-changing
> > > moods, his ability to make very serious points about homophobia,
aggression,
> > > Scottish puritan attitudes to broadcasting, etc. even through his most
> > > apparently comic album, the vaudevillian Ultraconformist.
> >
> > Did I say it was something that I personally was bothered by?
> >
> > I mentioned both of these things as a -problem- not because I personally
> > feel they're bad things. More that they are things that can lead to some
> > people dismissing these two artists very quickly and on a shallow basis
> > ("he's all words" or "he's that funny guy"), and I'm not only talking
> > about critics. Or rather, "critics" as a couple people spit it out here,
a
> > large jello mass of people who are all exactly alike and out to destroy
> > all the bands you like just because they can. I know some individual
> > critics who are rather nice people, believe it or not.
>
> Me too. Some people just fall into it -- they
> don't set out to be a critic.
I meant it that way ... I was thinking about a certain sort of deeply
ignorant British critic, rather than every critic in the world.
> Now, how come no one has had any words to say
> about the latest dispatch from Chairman Momo?
Well, I did refer to it earlier ... obviously I agree with all the points
about the NME, but that's pretty obvious. The rest of it ... I admire his
rescuing of Mark E. Smith from the view of him as a Northern Lad (the
difference between The Fall and Oasis is as big as the difference between
Momus and Oasis, IMO). I'm on his side, pretty much. I certainly share his
loathing of Beth Orton's middle-American rock fantasies, my least favourite
genre ever.
I ought to get to Brick Lane and Hoxton next time I'm in London, to see it
for myself...
love on ya
robin
-------
"qui est in ... qui est out"
dym...@ripco.com
>
> dymaxia wrote:
>
> > how he's always making references to animals, or the animal
> > side of humans.
>
> I know someone else who does that. This forum is named after him :).
>
> Certainly not always, but there's quite a bit of it.
Hmmm...see, I think they're really different in
this regard, because Momus is *much* less interested
in "nature" or forces of nature. It's like he's more
of a humanist, because he is intensely interested
in what people create and build and express themselves,
which are the things that distinguish them from the rest
of nature.
>
> Mainly, RH is talking about sex and death, with a sideline in sexual power
> struggles and psychology. Which are things Momus talks about quite a bit
> too.
Don't you get the feeling, though, that for Momus,
the "irrational" is something to be struggled against?
I think the one thing about him that stood out right
away and appealed to me was how he aims for *clarity*.
There's none of the "murk" that often passes for poetry
and "deepness" here. "Detachment" is part of that -- it's
about not getting caught up in your personal dramas. So,
I think for Momus, there's very much a sense that humans
can *overcome* their animal/psychological handicaps. For example,
look how optimistic he is about technology, about "cyborgs",
about sex changes. I think that's a pretty fundamental
difference between him and RH. Of course, I will admit
to not having listened to RH in quite a while, so I may
be wrong, or perhaps he's changed. I think there's an
argument for compassion and/or tolerance in the work of
both artists, but my impression is that for Hitchcock, it's
because of their *limitations* rather than their *potential*.
> They just don't have the same approach. You'd never hear RH do
> something like "Loneliness of Lift Music", but I wouldn't be surprised to
> hear he liked it.
>
> >His paintings have nature-type stuff in them, too, no?
>
> Sort of. They also have hats and ties and glasses and skulls
> and.....stuff. They're only "nature paintings" in the sense that Magritte
> and DeChirico painted nature paintings.
>
> >So, you get this sense of people being at the mercy of their biology,
> which is >kind of a surrealist thing.
>
> I'm just not at all sure that's what he's mainly on about.
Of course, my impressions are about 10-15 years old,
so you could be right.
>
> > an interest in the *irrational*, in dreams and the subconscious.
>
> This, however, is definitely true.
>
> > social thing, or when he's writing about something "personal",
> > it's like he never loses sight of the wider social/cultural
> > context.
>
> What's the wider social/cultural context for "Right Hand Heart"? "Slide
> Projector Lie Detector"? "Complicated"? "Tragedy and Farce"?
> "Bluestocking"? "Hairstyle of The Devil"? "The Cabriolet"?
I guess what I mean to say is that Momus always mediates
the personal content with a social perspective -- there is
*always* a context, which is a very post-modern thing.
dym...@ripco.com
> > delivers a phrase. It makes all the difference
> > in the world.
>
> I think Gainsbourg was very expressive in much the same way ... his voice
> could express *all* emotions (and not just some caricaturishly "French"
> sexuality, which he's been reduced to by Steve Sutherland and his ilk).
>
Yes, and this is what I was saying about
Brazilian singers, too -- it's not just the
words, and not just the melodies -- it's
how they're *conveyed*, often in a manner
that mimics conversation. I've always loved
singers who could do that.
[snippini]
> > Now, how come no one has had any words to say
> > about the latest dispatch from Chairman Momo?
>
> Well, I did refer to it earlier ... obviously I agree with all the points
> about the NME, but that's pretty obvious. The rest of it ... I admire his
> rescuing of Mark E. Smith from the view of him as a Northern Lad (the
> difference between The Fall and Oasis is as big as the difference between
> Momus and Oasis, IMO).
Oh, you know I love(d) the Fall. The Fall are to me
what Robyn Hitchcock is to V.Squid.
> I'm on his side, pretty much. I certainly share his
> loathing of Beth Orton's middle-American rock fantasies, my least favourite
> genre ever.
I was interested in the things he wrote about
"white trash" affectations and fetishes -- something
near and dear to my heart, since I, too, although
"white" and somewhat "trashy", am a second-generation
American. I appreciate articulateness and education
because I've had to struggle to get those things. I
never identified with a lot of "white" people in America.
Certainly it bugs me when educated people turn around
and dismiss the value of a college education just so
they can appear to be "anti-elitist". One thing, though --
my father wanted me to be a journalist or lawyer, but *I*
became a bohemian because journalism school nearly
drove me insane. I think he idealizes "upward mobility"
a bit, because usually the children and grandchildren of
immigrants are put under enormous pressure to be doctors
and lawyers, and are discouraged from becoming creative,
unless it is in a commercial realm.
>
> I ought to get to Brick Lane and Hoxton next time I'm in London, to see it
> for myself...
I'm going to London next January, so I need to know
which neighborhoods to check out....
Robin Carmody
> > > I especially like his voice, and the way he
> > > delivers a phrase. It makes all the difference
> > > in the world.
> >
> > I think Gainsbourg was very expressive in much the same way ... his
voice
> > could express *all* emotions (and not just some caricaturishly "French"
> > sexuality, which he's been reduced to by Steve Sutherland and his ilk).
>
> Yes, and this is what I was saying about
> Brazilian singers, too -- it's not just the
> words, and not just the melodies -- it's
> how they're *conveyed*, often in a manner
> that mimics conversation. I've always loved
> singers who could do that.
Momus's style is also very conversational, of course... I've always found
that the most expressive style of singing. To sound as passionate as he
can... Serge & BB's Bonnie and Clyde, which I'm listening to as I write, is
a brilliant example of that style.
> > > Now, how come no one has had any words to say
> > > about the latest dispatch from Chairman Momo?
> >
> > Well, I did refer to it earlier ... obviously I agree with all the
points
> > about the NME, but that's pretty obvious. The rest of it ... I admire
his
> > rescuing of Mark E. Smith from the view of him as a Northern Lad (the
> > difference between The Fall and Oasis is as big as the difference
between
> > Momus and Oasis, IMO).
>
> Oh, you know I love(d) the Fall. The Fall are to me
> what Robyn Hitchcock is to V.Squid.
And, of course, Mark E. is, in his way, every bit as literate as Momus, and
every bit as removed from the "noble savages" who took his name in vein.
> > I'm on his side, pretty much. I certainly share his
> > loathing of Beth Orton's middle-American rock fantasies, my least
favourite
> > genre ever.
>
> I was interested in the things he wrote about
> "white trash" affectations and fetishes -- something
> near and dear to my heart, since I, too, although
> "white" and somewhat "trashy", am a second-generation
> American. I appreciate articulateness and education
> because I've had to struggle to get those things.
Yes, I've had the same struggles.
I
> never identified with a lot of "white" people in America.
> Certainly it bugs me when educated people turn around
> and dismiss the value of a college education just so
> they can appear to be "anti-elitist".
I've come across a lot of that myself, intelligent people being slightly
ashamed of their education...
One thing, though --
> my father wanted me to be a journalist or lawyer, but *I*
> became a bohemian because journalism school nearly
> drove me insane. I think he idealizes "upward mobility"
> a bit, because usually the children and grandchildren of
> immigrants are put under enormous pressure to be doctors
> and lawyers, and are discouraged from becoming creative,
> unless it is in a commercial realm.
And, as we know from Shazna, some go through terrible experiences because
they want to be something other than what their families are trying to mould
them into. I can see what you mean about his idealizing, but I think it's
more a genuine sympathy with people working themselves up from nothing,
rather than dragging themselves down from everything. I think it's possible
to make a distinction between the people in pop who rise to new heights,
saying "nothing's too good for us" (like the Supremes in the 60s), and those
who kick against the expectation that they'll be doctors / lawyers, and move
into US rock / blues mythology (like the Rolling Stones in the 60s, when
they were the original mock-noble savages).
> > I ought to get to Brick Lane and Hoxton next time I'm in London, to see
it
> > for myself...
>
> I'm going to London next January, so I need to know
> which neighborhoods to check out....
Oooh, I'll try and see you there ...
love on ya
robin
-------
"and baby, best of all, I can see your love..."
Noah Wildman
unpretentiously 'unintellectual' in certain cases, which I guess is a bit twee
and pretentious) but as mucb as I love Mom and RH, this thread is a bit too
navel-gazing for my fragile lil' mahnd. Which leads to the obvious... a
classical internet newsgroup question that would of popped up much sooner if
it not were for the pro-intellectual forces running rampant in these parts. So
as one of (snobbish wink, bullying grin inserted here) the original posters to
this group, I must venture forth and ask...
Robyn & Nick - who would win in a fist fight?
Apologetically annoyed,
- Noah
victorian squid
> Robyn & Nick - who would win in a fist fight?
I don't think either of them is much of a fighter.
Tell you what I think you should do.
Mr. Paul Weller apparently has issued a standard challenge to all critics
who slam him- go a few rounds in the boxing ring.
Mr. Robbie Williams is rather open about being very upset when someone he
admires makes a nasty remark about him. Being a less sporting gent than
Mr. Weller, however, he prefers to just drop in on said person and sock
them (at least, this is what he told the folks at Rolling Stone).
I think if he wishes to maintain his reputation as "laddish but sensitive"
he needs to learn how to box in the ring. Obviously the thing to do is to
get him to write a bad review of a Paul Weller record, and have Mr. Weller
duly issue a challenge and call him a wanker, and then they can go at it.
Robbie Williams learns some rules of boxing, Paul Weller gets to show that
he makes good on his threats, and Noah gets to see that fight he's itching
to see. Plus the rest of us will get a good laugh out of it. Looks like a
win/win.
Telmin
> ..classical internet newsgroup question that would of popped up much sooner if
> it not were for the pro-intellectual forces running rampant in these parts. So
> as one of (snobbish wink, bullying grin inserted here) the original posters to
> this group, I must venture forth and ask...
>
> Robyn & Nick - who would win in a fist fight?
This is an essential issue when it comes to pop music; personally i always loved
the stranglers. And in a fist fight between rh and our main man the stranglers
would still win.
(well.. frankly i just posted this in order to be first out on the track.)
inge
dym...@ripco.com
>
> I dunno, maybe am anti-intellectual ( I like to think of myself as
> unpretentiously 'unintellectual' in certain cases, which I guess is a bit twee
> and pretentious) but as mucb as I love Mom and RH, this thread is a bit too
> navel-gazing for my fragile lil' mahnd. Which leads to the obvious... a
> it not were for the pro-intellectual forces running rampant in these parts. So
> as one of (snobbish wink, bullying grin inserted here) the original posters to
> this group, I must venture forth and ask...
If it does annoy you, then why don't you start a thread
on something that's more to your taste?
I don't have a problem with your being bored with these
threads, but you make it sound as if it's *our* fault,
or that we have a responsibility to entertain you. That's
not how Usenet works. And "navel-gazing" is kind of
an attack on our characters, no? How on earth is a conversation
about two artists that we like "navel-gazing"? If you want
to know what solipsism and myopia are, read one of the recovery /
support groups. I mean, all these years, I've had to participate
in music groups, and sit through boring fanboy conversations
about this rare import 7-inch and that bootleg and that b-side,
but when it got too boring, I either tried to contribute, or....
I think it's *great* to have a forum in which music actually
means something besides a product that enhances your "lifestyle".
I mean, I can't for the life of me figure out how a Momus
newsgroup is not going to touch on "philosophical" stuff.
--
la...@my-deja.com
> Noah Wildman wrote:
>
> Robyn & Nick - who would win in a fist fight?
Ooh, that's tough. Nick's very cunning, but Robyn's probably got a
couple dozen pounds on him... I'd have to hope for a draw before
anybody gets hurt, then we'll all retire for tea and cookies. Both can
claim they *really* won, and Stephin Merritt can write a few dozen
songs about it and invite all his friends to sing them.
Re: Fighting Popstars: Julian Koster, sawboy for Neutral Milk Hotel
etc, competed in karate as a middle-schooler! He has bunches of
trophies!
Layna
--
Reply to layn...@worldnet.att.net
(but first let the cat out)
vanessa
>this thread is a bit too navel-gazing
>for my fragile lil' mahnd
*gazes at navel and eats what she finds there*
victorian squid
dymaxia wrote:
> in what people create and build and express themselves,
> which are the things that distinguish them from the rest
> of nature.
On Hitch's part, songs like "My Favorite Buildings" and "Trams of Old
London", not to mention "De Chirico Street" seem to be very concerned with
these matters.
And Momus seems to be pretty damn interested in psychosexuality.
> Don't you get the feeling, though, that for Momus,
> the "irrational" is something to be struggled against?
Um, no, not really. I agree that he strives passionately for clarity, but
to my way of thinking, it has more to do with a deep desire for honesty
and calling a spade a spade, and not leaving the uglies of the world
unexamined. I don't feel that it's about struggling to -obliterate- so
much as struggling to drag things into the light and have a look at them.
Which I don't feel is entirely unrelated to what Robyn Hitchcock tries to
do in his writing, they just have very different ways of going about it.
> and "deepness" here. "Detachment" is part of that -- it's
> about not getting caught up in your personal dramas.
It's very funny in light of this discussion, but one of the complaints
people often voice about Robyn Hitchcock concerns a feeling of detachment
:).
> I think for Momus, there's very much a sense that humans
> can *overcome* their animal/psychological handicaps.
If I could be a man for a day or a week, and then go back to being female
(which I happen to like), that'd be super-groovy and I'd probably learn a
lot, but I don't see myself as being "handicapped" because I can't do it
(yet). If I could zip all over the world in a super duper space craft
that'd be amazing too, and I'm sure it's coming eventually, but I don't
see it as a handicap that I can't do it yet. What I'm trying to say is, I
guess........I'm not sure he does either. He's looking forward,
impatiently, but isn't "handicap" perhaps a strong way to put it?
(I wonder too.......is the irrational a handicap to your way of thinking
and is it of the animal variety? I wonder if there's a Momus column about
this somewheres)
I'm also not entirely sure that he's completely about overcoming
psychological handicaps, nor that Robyn Hitchcock's take is "oh, we're all
stuck in the mire". Actually his last three albums have had transcendence
and growth as an adult as major themes, particularly coming to terms with
grief and loss.
> look how optimistic he is about technology, about "cyborgs",
> about sex changes.
No doubt that's a fundamental difference. I think there's a danger in
taking either point of view too far, to be honest.
> I guess what I mean to say is that Momus always mediates
> the personal content with a social perspective
I see him being very much a storyteller, a purveyor of modern morality
fables, as it were, a tradition that has roots that go back a lot further
than post-modernity. As such he -must- make an effort to maintain a
certain amount of distance, which he does.
This discussion probably says more about our respective worldviews than it
does about Nicholas Currie's, in any event :).
victorian squid
> words, and not just the melodies -- it's
> how they're *conveyed*, often in a manner
> that mimics conversation. I've always loved
> singers who could do that.
I very much like that too. It's one of the things I really like about
Townes Van Zandt, who wasn't from anywhere more exotic than Texas *nudges
Robin* :).
> Certainly it bugs me when educated people turn around
> and dismiss the value of a college education just so
> they can appear to be "anti-elitist".
Particularly when they've got one themselves ;).
It is a very common cultural trope, obviously, that "smart is bad". I was
reading an article a few years ago that pointed out something I hadn't
even realized- do you know how many commonly-used insults have the word
"smart" as a base?
Incidentally, I don't see anyone telling Michael Jordan to quit making
those jump shots because it's making other people feel bad about
themselves. Why is that somehow different?
Robin Carmody
news:underwatermoonligh...@w020.z208176192.chi-il.dsl.cnc.net
...
> > words, and not just the melodies -- it's
> > how they're *conveyed*, often in a manner
> > that mimics conversation. I've always loved
> > singers who could do that.
>
> I very much like that too. It's one of the things I really like about
> Townes Van Zandt, who wasn't from anywhere more exotic than Texas *nudges
> Robin* :).
Oooh ... I can feel it!
> > Certainly it bugs me when educated people turn around
> > and dismiss the value of a college education just so
> > they can appear to be "anti-elitist".
>
> Particularly when they've got one themselves ;).
>
> It is a very common cultural trope, obviously, that "smart is bad". I was
> reading an article a few years ago that pointed out something I hadn't
> even realized- do you know how many commonly-used insults have the word
> "smart" as a base?
I've probably had most of them hurled at me sometime...
> Incidentally, I don't see anyone telling Michael Jordan to quit making
> those jump shots because it's making other people feel bad about
> themselves. Why is that somehow different?
Because a lot of people tend to see great athletic achievement as some
height of humanity, but they tend to see great artistic achievement as ...
suspicious.
sad to say...
-----------------
robin
dym...@ripco.com
>
> dymaxia wrote:
>
> > in what people create and build and express themselves,
> > which are the things that distinguish them from the rest
> > of nature.
>
> On Hitch's part, songs like "My Favorite Buildings" and "Trams of Old
> London", not to mention "De Chirico Street" seem to be very concerned with
> these matters.
Right...I didn't say that Hitchcock has no social
or cultural interests -- he certainly does. But
his views don't remind me of humanism in the philosophical
sense of the word -- they remind me much more of
19th century "naturalism", which emphasizes the animal
nature in people. The emphasis is on people being
limited and somewhat humbled by their animal natures.
I'm thinking of all the biomorphism in his mid-to-late
80s period, and the polemical liner notes on "Globe of Frogs".
>
> And Momus seems to be pretty damn interested in psychosexuality.
Well, yeah, but I feel the things he singles out are
quite different. I find Momus much less cynical, ultimately.
>
> > Don't you get the feeling, though, that for Momus,
> > the "irrational" is something to be struggled against?
>
> Um, no, not really. I agree that he strives passionately for clarity, but
> to my way of thinking, it has more to do with a deep desire for honesty
> and calling a spade a spade, and not leaving the uglies of the world
> unexamined. I don't feel that it's about struggling to -obliterate- so
> much as struggling to drag things into the light and have a look at them.
Hmmmm...
By "struggle against", I don't really mean "obliterate".
You struggle against things by becoming *aware* of them,
by becoming somewhat detached from them. I distinctly
got that impression in his "Beyond the Pale" essay,
and again in the interview in the Onion -- the struggle
against Romanticism, against narcissism. The way he
identifies more with the 18th century than the 19th.
> Which I don't feel is entirely unrelated to what Robyn Hitchcock tries to
> do in his writing, they just have very different ways of going about it.
Yeah, I just get the impression that their views
of "human nature" are quite different.
>
> > and "deepness" here. "Detachment" is part of that -- it's
> > about not getting caught up in your personal dramas.
>
> It's very funny in light of this discussion, but one of the complaints
> people often voice about Robyn Hitchcock concerns a feeling of detachment
> :).
I think they're misreading him, then. His work seems
to be much more personal.
>
> > I think for Momus, there's very much a sense that humans
> > can *overcome* their animal/psychological handicaps.
>
> If I could be a man for a day or a week, and then go back to being female
> (which I happen to like), that'd be super-groovy and I'd probably learn a
> lot, but I don't see myself as being "handicapped" because I can't do it
> (yet). If I could zip all over the world in a super duper space craft
> that'd be amazing too, and I'm sure it's coming eventually, but I don't
> see it as a handicap that I can't do it yet. What I'm trying to say is, I
> guess........I'm not sure he does either. He's looking forward,
> impatiently, but isn't "handicap" perhaps a strong way to put it?
>
Yes, it is. I should have said "limitations".
> (I wonder too.......is the irrational a handicap to your way of thinking
> and is it of the animal variety? I wonder if there's a Momus column about
> this somewheres)
I think so...since his talk of "objectivity" echoes
humanist ideas of what separates us from animals.
>
> I'm also not entirely sure that he's completely about overcoming
> psychological handicaps, nor that Robyn Hitchcock's take is "oh, we're all
> stuck in the mire".
"Overcome" is not really my word -- personally, it
smacks of psychotherapy speak. I think "struggle
against" is something different. Remember how he
said he used to be Romantic, but he's working against
that tendency? That's what I mean.
> > I guess what I mean to say is that Momus always mediates
> > the personal content with a social perspective
>
> I see him being very much a storyteller, a purveyor of modern morality
> fables, as it were, a tradition that has roots that go back a lot further
> than post-modernity.
Sure, I didn't say that it didn't. I mean, irony is
nothing new, but I think irony and detachment have
become particularly important since the 1960s. It
has a lot to do with the rise of mass culture.
> As such he -must- make an effort to maintain a
> certain amount of distance, which he does.
>
> This discussion probably says more about our respective worldviews than it
> does about Nicholas Currie's, in any event :).
Perhaps, but I could totally relate to some
of the things he wrote about being an ex-Romantic.
dymaxia
I don't mean to belabor this, and I'm
sure it's probably boring to some, if
not all of you, but it's just that I'm
intensely interested in people's philosophies
and I like to think about the similarities
& differences between them.
Anyway, I had some more thoughts on this:
On Thu, 9 Sep 1999 dym...@ripco.com wrote:
> victorian squid wrote:
> >
> > dymaxia wrote:
> >
> > > in what people create and build and express themselves,
> > > which are the things that distinguish them from the rest
> > > of nature.
> >
> > On Hitch's part, songs like "My Favorite Buildings" and "Trams of Old
> > London", not to mention "De Chirico Street" seem to be very concerned with
> > these matters.
>
> Right...I didn't say that Hitchcock has no social
> or cultural interests -- he certainly does. But
> his views don't remind me of humanism in the philosophical
> sense of the word -- they remind me much more of
> 19th century "naturalism", which emphasizes the animal
> nature in people. The emphasis is on people being
> limited and somewhat humbled by their animal natures.
> I'm thinking of all the biomorphism in his mid-to-late
> 80s period, and the polemical liner notes on "Globe of Frogs".
I went back and dug the album out, and had
a look at those liner notes. I guess they
left an impression on me because they seemed
*so* cynical. Anyhow, he says things like:
sex, media and consumerism are things we
use to distract ourselves from our animal
selves. He speaks of how underneath our
"civilised" veneer, we are "alone". He says
that the antichrist will wear a walkman.
I know that he's spoken in the past of the "horror"
of life, and a desire to make it easier for
himself and others in his music. I dunno --
I think that for him, life has this menacing,
Poe-ish quality -- there's something potentially
destructive that is being held at bay (or maybe
it's just death and disease). He writes often of
skins, and the grotesque interior they hide. "Some
things go in, some things go out." He's
ambivalent about this, maybe? There's a gothic
quality there. His music used to remind me of David
Cronenberg, who spoke about his fascination with
and horror at the human body. As I've said, I
haven't followed him lately, so maybe he's changed
all of that. Still, I don't get that from Momus.
Now, admittedly, I like Momus *much* better,
but I'm not being as hard on Robyn as you
might think. I'm kind of touched that it is
important to him to *communicate* -- that he
wants to communicate something, to the point
of putting this little essay on the back of
an album. Many "artists" just throw their
arms in the air and say things to the effect that
the audience's interpretation is up to them. I
really respect artists who *know* what they're about
and go so far as to say what they're getting at.
Which is what Momus also does.
--
Kerry
victorian squid
> > Incidentally, I don't see anyone telling Michael Jordan to quit making
> > those jump shots because it's making other people feel bad about
> > themselves. Why is that somehow different?
>
> Because a lot of people tend to see great athletic achievement as some
> height of humanity, but they tend to see great artistic achievement as ...
> suspicious.
Well, yes, of course, but why?
I -think- it's because great athletic ability is physically demonstrable.
You can SEE it. You can't very well claim that Michael Jordan's being more
athletically skilled is "pretentious" or "exaggerated". Additionally,
because it's physically demonstrable as a skill, everyone agrees. A
skillfully executed jump shot is a skillfully executed jump shot, period,
there's no argument about what it is.
Whereas when you're talking about "smart", well, that's fairly nebulous.
It tends to be like pornography, in that people "know it when they see
it", but they can't really put their finger on it. The word means
different things to different people. And you can be smart in a variety of
ways- it's often another way of saying "talented" or "has good instincts"-
you can be a smart computer tech, a smart actor, a smart architect.
"Athletic" doesn't have quite as many uses, it pretty much is what it is.
Also, I think getting back to the "human vs. animal" idea- that a physical
"animal" skill is not so threatening. Because if it's intelligence that
separates us from the rest of the animals around here and the thing that
makes us higher in the pecking order, it stands to reason that someone who
is more intelligent is de facto superior among the superiors, and if your
intelligence really shines out people might potentially perceive you as
"acting superior" even when that's not your intention.
dym...@ripco.com
These are all really good points,
but I think the last one gets the closest
to why "intelligence" (read: "education",
"literacy") is often resented. Literacy is
a privilege that not everyone can attain at
the same level. Knowledge and education are
also commodities in our society. I think this
"shame" about intelligence dovetails neatly with
the "shame" that people feel about money -- we
don't like to talk about how much we have, or
how much privilege we have over others. I think of
a college roommate I had, whose family owned
four houses in two different countries. She
often said, "we're not rich". The irony is that
those with the most power and/or wealth are not
necessarily the most intelligent. Our schools,
even the best ones, concern themselves mostly
with careerism.
The funny thing is, when my blue-collar father
has to introduce me to his steel industry buddies,
he always says, with great pride, "this is my daughter,
the intellectual."
victorian squid
dymaxia wrote:
> sex, media and consumerism are things we
> use to distract ourselves from our animal
> selves. He speaks of how underneath our
> "civilised" veneer, we are "alone".
I hate to put words in his mouth, but I really think he doesn't mean sex
in general, I think he's getting at something more along the lines of beer
commercials and "Melrose Place", if you see what I mean.
I think he must have had Lennon in the back of his mind somewhere too-
"they keep you doped with religion and sex and TV".
I also think he's right in one sense. We've got computers and zoot suits
and Susan Sontag, but we still have to eat and sleep and breathe. Don't
see much of a way around that. I don't think he's arguing at all that
that's all we ought to think about or all we ought to DO really
(obviously, since he himself is a performer, writer, and painter), just
that we ought not to forget that we're finite. Sort of like.......have you
ever read "Memento Mori", by Muriel Spark? Or for that matter, there's
always "Whiskey Bar", by our anti-romantic friend Bertolt :).
> I think that for him, life has this menacing,
> Poe-ish quality -- there's something potentially
> destructive that is being held at bay (or maybe
> it's just death and disease).
I think it's really decay. Or rather, there's this sense of impermanence
and time ultimately erasing everything. Which is still very much there
(cf., "Time Will Destroy You Like A Mexican God" on the newest one).
I feel that one really important reason for this is where he grew up. Now
although he and Mome are roughly of the same generation, Mome moved around
quite a bit. Robyn grew up in post-war England, reminders of the
destruction were everywhere.
"Village greens in England are dotted with old pillboxes and gun
emplacements, erected during the war when they thought the Germans might
come. When I was a kid, I used to play in them. They'd be full of old bits
of crumpled-up newspapers, dead cats, rats that had worked their way into
milk bottles and then died."- Invisible Hitchcock liner notes
He also seems to have spent quite a bit of time in places like
Cleethorpes, "seaside towns they forgot to close down", to paraphrase
someone else's description. It seems almost inevitable that the ravages of
time would become a preoccupation, and I think that's what fascinates and
frightens him, rather than disease specifically. Now that I think of it,
even a song like "My Favorite Buildings" is really about that as well-
"But why the hell bother with painting them brown/When they'll all be
pulled down in the end".
> the audience's interpretation is up to them. I
> really respect artists who *know* what they're about
> and go so far as to say what they're getting at.
> Which is what Momus also does.
This is something I really love about both of them, too. I'm sorry, but if
you won't even make the attempt to articulate these things (and it doesn't
have to be anything philosophical, it can just be "I like to see people
dance"), I'd really like to know why on earth I should bother. I mean,
really, this might sound harsh but to me music is fundamentally about
communication, so if you've nothing really to communicate, I'm fucked if I
know why I should waste my time and for that matter, I have no idea why
you chose this profession.
This goes double for bands like Ween and the Violent Femmes. You want to
make a mockery of a vital form of human communication, that's fine, but
frankly, what kind of person spends so much time and effort on what
basically amounts to nothing other than being a junior-high level wiseass?
Probably not anyone I want to know.
Robin Carmody
news:underwatermoonligh...@w020.z208176192.chi-il.dsl.cnc.net
...
> I think it's really decay. Or rather, there's this sense of impermanence
> and time ultimately erasing everything. Which is still very much there
> (cf., "Time Will Destroy You Like A Mexican God" on the newest one).
>
> I feel that one really important reason for this is where he grew up. Now
> although he and Mome are roughly of the same generation, Mome moved around
> quite a bit. Robyn grew up in post-war England, reminders of the
> destruction were everywhere.
Actually, I think Robyn was born in 1953, making him 7 years older than El
Momo, which in terms of how many reminders of the war there were makes quite
a difference.
> "Village greens in England are dotted with old pillboxes and gun
> emplacements, erected during the war when they thought the Germans might
> come. When I was a kid, I used to play in them. They'd be full of old bits
> of crumpled-up newspapers, dead cats, rats that had worked their way into
> milk bottles and then died."- Invisible Hitchcock liner notes
>
> He also seems to have spent quite a bit of time in places like
> Cleethorpes, "seaside towns they forgot to close down", to paraphrase
> someone else's description.
I too have spent rather too much time in such places, and it does create the
melancholy that seems to run through so much of Robyn's work... also I think
Robyn's from Cambridge, and was surrounded by the Fens which have a very
bleak, brooding air about them in winter (see the Pink Floyd "High Hopes"
video, they also being from Cambridge). Having lived in Athens and Montreal
during his youth, and in Paris since, Nick's work would inevitably be more
internationalist and less rooted in his own country. I was talking with
Robert Dye about the Momus / Morrissey thing yesterday ... we agreed it was
a case of opposites attracting, Momus's disillusionment with his country
("In the 1980s I really did feel doomed to living in Britain" - On
Transgression), versus Morrissey's isolationism and protectionism, his
apparent belief, judging from the second line of "Panic" that black / dance
music would cause Britain to lose its sanity.
It seems almost inevitable that the ravages of
> time would become a preoccupation, and I think that's what fascinates and
> frightens him, rather than disease specifically. Now that I think of it,
> even a song like "My Favorite Buildings" is really about that as well-
> "But why the hell bother with painting them brown/When they'll all be
> pulled down in the end".
>
> > the audience's interpretation is up to them. I
> > really respect artists who *know* what they're about
> > and go so far as to say what they're getting at.
> > Which is what Momus also does.
>
> This is something I really love about both of them, too. I'm sorry, but if
> you won't even make the attempt to articulate these things (and it doesn't
> have to be anything philosophical, it can just be "I like to see people
> dance"), I'd really like to know why on earth I should bother. I mean,
> really, this might sound harsh but to me music is fundamentally about
> communication, so if you've nothing really to communicate, I'm fucked if I
> know why I should waste my time and for that matter, I have no idea why
> you chose this profession.
>
> This goes double for bands like Ween and the Violent Femmes. You want to
> make a mockery of a vital form of human communication, that's fine, but
> frankly, what kind of person spends so much time and effort on what
> basically amounts to nothing other than being a junior-high level wiseass?
> Probably not anyone I want to know.
Certainly not me ... Momus has communicated so much to me that I couldn't
describe it.
love on ya
robin
-------
"out on the promenade etch a postcard
how I dearly wish I was not here"
victorian squid
> Actually, I think Robyn was born in 1953, making him 7 years older than El
> Momo, which in terms of how many reminders of the war there were makes quite
> a difference.
Ah, ok. I had thought El Momo turned 40 this year. I hope he's not too
upset by that :).
> Robyn's from Cambridge, and was surrounded by the Fens which have a very
> bleak, brooding air about them in winter (see the Pink Floyd "High Hopes"
> video, they also being from Cambridge).
You know, I think you're right about that. You're definitely right about
the Fens, anyway (have you ever read Graham Swift's "Waterland"?). IIRC,
and this is something else I find interesting in this context, the house
Robyn grew up in was previously an abandoned water mill.
> Transgression), versus Morrissey's isolationism and protectionism,
I'm not so sure about Morrissey being a "protectionist". There's no doubt
that England made him, however.
And here's a difference I seem to have with the majority here- I not only
don't mind that in a performer, but I think it can give artist's work a
lot of poetic resonance and savor. Not only that, but I have a distinct
feeling that something else that colors some of these aesthetic
disagreements may simply be that having been born and raised in these
United States, I'm probably picking up nuances in the work of say, Johnny
Cash, that a European isn't, just as you're probably getting resonances in
Morrissey that I'll never be able to really feel.
Love on ya,
v. squid
"Drink my wine and eat me like a sacrament"- John Prine
Robin Carmody
news:underwatermoonligh...@w020.z208176192.chi-il.dsl.cnc.net
...
> > Actually, I think Robyn was born in 1953, making him 7 years older than
El
> > Momo, which in terms of how many reminders of the war there were makes
quite
> > a difference.
>
> Ah, ok. I had thought El Momo turned 40 this year. I hope he's not too
> upset by that :).
I think Nick will be 40 on 11th February 2000, actually...
> > Robyn's from Cambridge, and was surrounded by the Fens which have a very
> > bleak, brooding air about them in winter (see the Pink Floyd "High
Hopes"
> > video, they also being from Cambridge).
>
> You know, I think you're right about that. You're definitely right about
> the Fens, anyway (have you ever read Graham Swift's "Waterland"?). IIRC,
> and this is something else I find interesting in this context, the house
> Robyn grew up in was previously an abandoned water mill.
Interesting that this should come up ... I've recently had an ongoing
correspondence with someone from Cambridgeshire, who disliked it intensely
and now lives in London. Last time I was in the area I met a writer who I
won't name, who grew up in a millhouse very close to Cambridge, and I
definitely had a sense of a unique, inspirational part of Britain. But I
also had a strong disagreement with an American woman, because I got the
impression she'd feel threatened by the fact that people listen to hip-hop
in Cambridgeshire, because it disturbs her vision of an "unchanging" rural
Britain. I'd have thought the Americans who post here are perfectly
prepared for Britain to change, and have no problem with people in the Fens
(or Dartmoor, or wherever) listening to hip-hop, but if anyone does, I think
they should admit to it.
> > Transgression), versus Morrissey's isolationism and protectionism,
>
> I'm not so sure about Morrissey being a "protectionist". There's no doubt
> that England made him, however.
I'm not sure either, but the second line to "Panic", "I wonder to myself -
could life ever be sane again?" does seem to suggest that he thought that
black / dance music would cause Britain to lose its sanity, which is not a
truly racist statement but still a highly questionable one.
> And here's a difference I seem to have with the majority here- I not only
> don't mind that in a performer, but I think it can give artist's work a
> lot of poetic resonance and savor. Not only that, but I have a distinct
> feeling that something else that colors some of these aesthetic
> disagreements may simply be that having been born and raised in these
> United States, I'm probably picking up nuances in the work of say, Johnny
> Cash, that a European isn't, just as you're probably getting resonances in
> Morrissey that I'll never be able to really feel.
Yes ... I have no problem with people taking much more from their native
traditions than Momus has (until Friday at least!) ... the problem comes
when they start regarding those traditions as the only ones that have any
worth, and the spread of other influences as a threat. Which,
unfortunately, is what Morrissey became in more recent years, IMO.
love on ya
robin
victorian squid
> also had a strong disagreement with an American woman, because I got the
> impression she'd feel threatened by the fact that people listen to hip-hop
> in Cambridgeshire, because it disturbs her vision of an "unchanging" rural
> Britain.
I'm not going to admit to being threatened by it, because I'm not :).
One of the most beautiful things about England, from this foreigner's
point of view, is the way all of these different points in time and
history sort of coalesce. It's a lot like what Momus was talking about
with Japan, the office buildings next to the ancient temples- I feel that
in England, I kind of wonder why he doesn't, maybe it's just too close to
home?
I will say tho, that I find it a little disconcerting, the same way I find
white suburban kids in the US going around talking about their "homies" a
little disconcerting.
My SO's nephew, a teenager from a very small town and a very
MTV-influenced boy, talks in gangsta talk among his friends and stuff and
loves Tupac, word. He came to visit us, and we took him to a baseball game
at Comiskey Park, from some parts of which you have a very clear view of a
major housing project. He pointed at the buildings and innocently inquired
if that was the ghetto.
> black / dance music would cause Britain to lose its sanity, which is not a
> truly racist statement but still a highly questionable one.
Well, there was black/dance music in Britain long before he said that.
What was he really talking about? Hip-hop -culture-, I suspect. I doubt
"northern soul" culture was something that deeply bothered him.
Love on ya,
v. squid
--
Robin Carmody
news:underwatermoonligh...@w020.z208176192.chi-il.dsl.cnc.net
...
> > also had a strong disagreement with an American woman, because I got the
> > impression she'd feel threatened by the fact that people listen to
hip-hop
> > in Cambridgeshire, because it disturbs her vision of an "unchanging"
rural
> > Britain.
>
> I'm not going to admit to being threatened by it, because I'm not :).
No, I never suspected you were. But I think some Americans *do* feel
threatened by it, and Cambridge is one of the places they tend to visit.
> One of the most beautiful things about England, from this foreigner's
> point of view, is the way all of these different points in time and
> history sort of coalesce. It's a lot like what Momus was talking about
> with Japan, the office buildings next to the ancient temples- I feel that
> in England, I kind of wonder why he doesn't, maybe it's just too close to
> home?
Yes, it's probably why I don't feel it here.
> I will say tho, that I find it a little disconcerting,
Do you mean that you find people in Dorset listening to hip-hop a little
disconcerting? If you do, you find *me* disconcerting, because that's me.
Why, exactly?
the same way I find
> white suburban kids in the US going around talking about their "homies" a
> little disconcerting.
>
> My SO's nephew, a teenager from a very small town and a very
> MTV-influenced boy, talks in gangsta talk among his friends and stuff and
> loves Tupac, word. He came to visit us, and we took him to a baseball game
> at Comiskey Park, from some parts of which you have a very clear view of a
> major housing project. He pointed at the buildings and innocently inquired
> if that was the ghetto.
>
> > black / dance music would cause Britain to lose its sanity, which is not
a
> > truly racist statement but still a highly questionable one.
>
> Well, there was black/dance music in Britain long before he said that.
> What was he really talking about? Hip-hop -culture-, I suspect. I doubt
> "northern soul" culture was something that deeply bothered him.
I agree. But I still wonder why Morrissey felt threatened by it. And, if
you find it disconcerting that people in Dorset listen to hip-hop, then you
have more in common with the stereotypical "gee, isn't it quaint" American
tourist than you think you have.
love on ya
robin
victorian squid
> Do you mean that you find people in Dorset listening to hip-hop a little
> disconcerting? If you do, you find *me* disconcerting, because that's me.
> Why, exactly?
Nothing to do with Dorset per se. Read the following again:
I wrote:
> > My SO's nephew, a teenager from a very small town and a very
> > MTV-influenced boy, talks in gangsta talk among his friends and stuff and
> > loves Tupac, word. He came to visit us, and we took him to a baseball game
> > at Comiskey Park, from some parts of which you have a very clear view of a
> > major housing project. He pointed at the buildings and innocently inquired
> > if that was the ghetto.
THIS is why I get a little disconcerted sometimes.
Here you have this kid all talking in the slang and dressing in the Tommy
Hilfiger, and he has no fucking clue what a ghetto even looks like. To him
it's like a cartoon thing. I don't know if even seeing a housing project
brought the reality behind the myths home.
Robin Carmody
news:underwatermoonligh...@w020.z208176192.chi-il.dsl.cnc.net
...
> > Do you mean that you find people in Dorset listening to hip-hop a little
Well, I agree with you here. I *don't* glamourise the ghetto, I *hate* the
fact that people do, and I *don't* listen to any of the playa / gangsta /
thug shit. I *do* love a lot of hip-hop, and I *do* use it as a means of
redefining myself and escaping my middle-English surroundings, in exactly
the same way that Mick Jagger used R&B.
I just had this idea that you read Thomas Hardy and based your entire vision
of Dorset on that, and you wouldn't like me, or anyone else here, listening
to hip-hop because it disturbed that vision. As long as you aren't like
that, I apologise. I've just encountered a lot of Americans who are, and it
gets depressing. Myself, I see nothing funny, and certainly nothing wrong,
about Cornish hip-hop. Anyone who does is, to a certain extent, racist,
isolationist and protectionist.
love on ya
robin
victorian squid
Robin Carmody:
> I just had this idea that you read Thomas Hardy and based your entire vision
> of Dorset on that, and you wouldn't like me, or anyone else here, listening
> to hip-hop because it disturbed that vision.
I can't imagine -where- you got it, however. I don't know what I ever said
to indicate that I felt that way, in fact, I thought I went out of my way
to make sure it was clear that I felt otherwise. That one American woman
you met must have left a very strong bad taste in your mouth.
> that, I apologise. I've just encountered a lot of Americans who are, and it
> gets depressing.
I've also encountered a fair amount of Europeans who are disappointed that
Al Capone and John Dillinger are no longer walking the streets of Chicago
;).
Love on ya,
v. squid
puzzled about the "vs." part as it seems we haven't really disagreed much
dym...@ripco.com
>
> > that, I apologise. I've just encountered a lot of Americans who are, and it
> > gets depressing.
>
> I've also encountered a fair amount of Europeans who are disappointed that
> Al Capone and John Dillinger are no longer walking the streets of Chicago
> ;).
Shhhhhhh!!!!
Squid, the Department of Tourism and the Chamber of Commerce
are going to be *very* unhappy that you've revealed that
bit of information....
--
"Chee-cah-go! Bang-Bang!"
Kerry
http://www.ripco.com/~dymaxia
Andy Coles
>Well, I agree with you here. I *don't* glamourise the ghetto, I *hate* the
>fact that people do, and I *don't* listen to any of the playa / gangsta /
>thug shit. I *do* love a lot of hip-hop, and I *do* use it as a means of
>redefining myself and escaping my middle-English surroundings, in exactly
>the same way that Mick Jagger used R&B.
>
>of Dorset on that, and you wouldn't like me, or anyone else here, listening
>about Cornish hip-hop. Anyone who does is, to a certain extent, racist,
>isolationist and protectionist.
>
>love on ya
>robin
hip-hop all in the one post. I apologise for a slight digression - I
know my question isn't directly relevant to where this thread is going,
but I'd like to ask Robin something...
Aren't you overstating the case somewhat? Have you ever *really* met
anyone who expected Dorset to come straight outta Hardy or who gave a
toss that you listened to hip-hop? If you have then I'm truly amazed.
I've lived in Dorset all my life and worked in a record shop for a good
part of it and I have to tell you that Tupac et al outsell Adge Cutler
and the Wurzels by a truly remarkable amount.
And while I'm nitpicking I'm not sure about the redneck thing over in
the other thread. Dorset, like most of the south of England, is
horribly C/conservative, but I think the term 'redneck' has connotations
(for me at least) that don't really apply. As for Cornish hip-
hop...whilst there's certainly nothing wrong with the concept per se, I
have to admit that the idea does raise the slightest hint of a smile
with me, but that may be because you used the words 'isolationist' and
'protectionist' in the next sentence (for non-UK readers who may not
know, similar words are often used to stereotype Cornishmen.)
--
Andy (just off to puncture some sheep)
victorian squid
Andy Coles wrote:
> Aren't you overstating the case somewhat? Have you ever *really* met
> anyone who expected Dorset to come straight outta Hardy or who gave a
> toss that you listened to hip-hop?
I wouldn't be surprised if he's met a few. There is a certain type of
American anglophile who really is unhappy when they get to London and it
doesn't look like what they'd imagine from reading Dickens or Conan Doyle.
What I was mildly surprised by was the idea that any given American one
talks to must de facto feel that way. I understand that encountering it a
few times would be vastly annoying. I'm annoyed by Europeans doing that
"Cheecago! Bang bang! Where do the gangsters live? Can we buy some bootleg
gin?" thang, or for that matter, asking me if I'm afraid of fires, nudge
nudge. But it never occurred to me that any and everyone I meet from
Europe might potentially be thinking it.
Love on ya,
v. squid
Robin Carmody
news:underwatermoonligh...@w020.z208176192.chi-il.dsl.cnc.net
...
> > I just had this idea that you read Thomas Hardy and based your entire
vision
> > of Dorset on that, and you wouldn't like me, or anyone else here,
listening
> > to hip-hop because it disturbed that vision.
>
> I can't imagine -where- you got it, however. I don't know what I ever said
> to indicate that I felt that way, in fact, I thought I went out of my way
> to make sure it was clear that I felt otherwise. That one American woman
> you met must have left a very strong bad taste in your mouth.
The word "disconcerting", though I misunderstood the way you meant it. As
I've said, I dislike the glamourisation of "the ghetto" as much as you do.
Obviously, you're a long way from that stereotypical American-in-Britain,
and I'd imagine the same applies to all the other Americans here.
> > that, I apologise. I've just encountered a lot of Americans who are,
and it
> > gets depressing.
>
> I've also encountered a fair amount of Europeans who are disappointed that
> Al Capone and John Dillinger are no longer walking the streets of Chicago
> ;).
I'm sure. I have no doubt that it works both ways.
love on ya
robin
Robin Carmody
news:underwatermoonligh...@w020.z208176192.chi-il.dsl.cnc.net
...
>
> > anyone who expected Dorset to come straight outta Hardy or who gave a
> > toss that you listened to hip-hop?
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if he's met a few. There is a certain type of
> American anglophile who really is unhappy when they get to London and it
> doesn't look like what they'd imagine from reading Dickens or Conan Doyle.
Yes, I have met a few people who seem down on me for the fact that I listen
to hip-hop in Dorset. I won't reveal any more details, but I'm not *only*
talking about Americans ... on my frequent visits to London I have,
occasionally, encountered sentimentalising Londoners who go on holiday in
Dorset partly to get away from the stronger hip-hop influence in the
capital, and don't like the fact that I listen to it there.
> What I was mildly surprised by was the idea that any given American one
> talks to must de facto feel that way.
Yes, that's true. I exaggerated the anti-American thing, probably because
of too many late-night postings.
I understand that encountering it a
> few times would be vastly annoying. I'm annoyed by Europeans doing that
> "Cheecago! Bang bang! Where do the gangsters live? Can we buy some bootleg
> gin?" thang, or for that matter, asking me if I'm afraid of fires, nudge
> nudge. But it never occurred to me that any and everyone I meet from
> Europe might potentially be thinking it.
I couldn't have put it better myself...
love on ya
robin
Robin Carmody
> >Well, I agree with you here. I *don't* glamourise the ghetto, I *hate*
the
> >fact that people do, and I *don't* listen to any of the playa / gangsta /
> >thug shit. I *do* love a lot of hip-hop, and I *do* use it as a means of
> >redefining myself and escaping my middle-English surroundings, in exactly
> >the same way that Mick Jagger used R&B.
> >
> >I just had this idea that you read Thomas Hardy and based your entire
vision
> >of Dorset on that, and you wouldn't like me, or anyone else here,
listening
> >to hip-hop because it disturbed that vision. As long as you aren't like
> >that, I apologise. I've just encountered a lot of Americans who are, and
it
> >gets depressing. Myself, I see nothing funny, and certainly nothing
wrong,
> >about Cornish hip-hop. Anyone who does is, to a certain extent, racist,
> >isolationist and protectionist.
Andy wrote:
> Wow, you really cram it all in don't you - Jagger, Hardy and Cornish
> hip-hop all in the one post. I apologise for a slight digression - I
> know my question isn't directly relevant to where this thread is going,
> but I'd like to ask Robin something...
> Aren't you overstating the case somewhat? Have you ever *really* met
> anyone who expected Dorset to come straight outta Hardy or who gave a
> toss that you listened to hip-hop? If you have then I'm truly amazed.
Andy...
I'm sure that most people in the rest of Britain, and *definitely* most
people in the rest of the world, don't think that Dorset is or should be
trapped 100 years ago or have any problem with the fact that I listen to
hip-hop. However...
I go to London quite frequently (how often do you go there?), and as I've
just said there are people there who dislike the multi-culturalism of the
city and go on holiday in Dorset partly because they see it as a haven from
the hip-hop influences. The fact that I listen to it while living there
obviously disturbs that idyllic vision, so I *have* had antagonism from
sentimentalists elsewhere in Britain. There is also, as the Squid's already
said, a certain type of American Anglophile who genuinely expects London to
be like it is in the works of Dickens and Conan Doyle, and that sort of
Anglophile would also expect Dorset to be like it is in the work of Hardy
(who has a massive American following). So I have had problems with them as
well. But I wouldn't suggest that all Londoners or all Americans were like
that.
> I've lived in Dorset all my life and worked in a record shop for a good
> part of it
Where? Contact me personally, please!
and I have to tell you that Tupac et al outsell Adge Cutler
> and the Wurzels by a truly remarkable amount.
I wasn't denying that they do! I was actually saying that certain people
have a problem with this fact, because it disturbs their fantasies.
> And while I'm nitpicking I'm not sure about the redneck thing over in
> the other thread. Dorset, like most of the south of England, is
> horribly C/conservative, but I think the term 'redneck' has connotations
> (for me at least) that don't really apply.
I was referring to the aspirational middle-American country music fans who
seem very common here.
As for Cornish hip-
> hop...whilst there's certainly nothing wrong with the concept per se, I
> have to admit that the idea does raise the slightest hint of a smile
> with me, but that may be because you used the words 'isolationist' and
> 'protectionist' in the next sentence (for non-UK readers who may not
> know, similar words are often used to stereotype Cornishmen.)
The real "isolationists" and "protectionists" are those who don't like the
idea of Cornish hip-hop, or for that matter hip-hop in North-East England
(cf Chris Moyles on Radio 1, with his "Geordie Rap"). I mentioned Mick
Jagger because he was a white middle-class English blues singer, which was
the equivalent, in 1965, of being a white middle-class English emcee.
I stopped reading the NME partly because I hate their regionalist
stereotypes and assumptions, and little instances like the sarcastic
phraseology of long-term NME stalwart Roger Morton a propos the Aphex Twin:
"He was born a poor white genius in the ghettos of Cornwall", in a biography
available at http://www.warprecords.com/warp/file/aphex.html ... I can see
why you find it funny, but just remember that in 1964 people would surely
have laughed at a blues band from Newcastle (just as Moyles laughs at
hip-hop from there today) ... and then came The Animals' "House of the
Rising Sun". Someone, somewhere in Cornwall is putting the finishing
touches to a similar bomb right now...
> Andy (just off to puncture some sheep)
Oh, don't play into their hands...
love on ya
robin
Andy Coles
>I go to London quite frequently (how often do you go there?)
Is this kind of attempt at oneupmanship really necessary?
>, and as I've
>just said there are people there who dislike the multi-culturalism of the
>city and go on holiday in Dorset partly because they see it as a haven from
>the hip-hop influences.
>
Perhaps the Dorset Tourist Board should adopt this as a slogan. If
there are people in London who travel a whole 150 miles south in the
belief that hip-hop, having crossed the Atlantic getting on for 20 years
ago, hasn't made it down the M3 yet then they need to get out and about
a bit more.
>> And while I'm nitpicking I'm not sure about the redneck thing over in
>> the other thread. Dorset, like most of the south of England, is
>> horribly C/conservative, but I think the term 'redneck' has connotations
>> (for me at least) that don't really apply.
>
>I was referring to the aspirational middle-American country music fans who
>seem very common here.
Sorry, you've lost me... very common where?
>
> As for Cornish hip-
>> hop...whilst there's certainly nothing wrong with the concept per se, I
>> have to admit that the idea does raise the slightest hint of a smile
>> with me, but that may be because you used the words 'isolationist' and
>> 'protectionist' in the next sentence (for non-UK readers who may not
>> know, similar words are often used to stereotype Cornishmen.)
>
>The real "isolationists" and "protectionists" are those who don't like the
>idea of Cornish hip-hop, or for that matter hip-hop in North-East England
>(cf Chris Moyles on Radio 1, with his "Geordie Rap"). I mentioned Mick
>Jagger because he was a white middle-class English blues singer, which was
>the equivalent, in 1965, of being a white middle-class English emcee.
>
>I stopped reading the NME partly because I hate their regionalist
>stereotypes and assumptions,
>and little instances like the sarcastic
>phraseology of long-term NME stalwart Roger Morton a propos the Aphex Twin:
>"He was born a poor white genius in the ghettos of Cornwall", in a biography
>available at http://www.warprecords.com/warp/file/aphex.html ...
I'll take your word for it - I stopped reading the NME a long time ago
but, having gone and had a look at this piece, if this is all you're
worried about I think you're over-reacting.
>I can see
>why you find it funny, but just remember that in 1964 people would surely
>have laughed at a blues band from Newcastle (just as Moyles laughs at
>hip-hop from there today) ... and then came The Animals' "House of the
>Rising Sun". Someone, somewhere in Cornwall is putting the finishing
>touches to a similar bomb right now...
I'll readily admit that the smile it raises comes from my lazy combining
of two stereotypes... I'll try harder in future.
>> Andy (just off to puncture some sheep)
>
>Oh, don't play into their hands...
>love on ya
Isn't that VS's line?
>robin
>
>
--
Andy
victorian squid
Andy Coles wrote:
> belief that hip-hop, having crossed the Atlantic getting on for 20 years
> ago, hasn't made it down the M3 yet then they need to get out and about
> a bit more.
I don't find this so amazingly difficult to swallow, myself. There are
loads of urbanites with idealized visions of small towns and rural life.
And they really do expect to drive a hundred miles from their home and see
quaint little stores and small farms and smiling people with rakes.
That hiphop is not part of their vision is to be expected. I'd also expect
that rock and roll, soul, ska, reggae, punk, salsa, bossa nova, outside
jazz, and a host of other musics are not part of the soundtrack in their
heads either.
But I do find a bit hard to believe that the music Robin (or anyone,
really) listens to in his own home is a matter of great concern to them. I
can see it coming into conflict with their imagination if someone is out
there playing it loudly on a boombox or their car radio or something, but
if it's only in Robin's personal space I'm sort of bemused as to how they
would even KNOW what music he liked.
> >love on ya
> Isn't that VS's line?
No, it's not mine. I saw Robyn Hitchcock sign things that way, liked it,
and adopted it. He certainly didn't invent it as David Bowie's "Pinups"
has a little note to the listener signed "Love on ya, Bowie". Knowing a
bit about David Bowie I really doubt -he- invented it either. It's up for
grabs.
Robin Carmody
news:Os7edJAn...@btinternet.com...
> >, and as I've
> >just said there are people there who dislike the multi-culturalism of the
> >city and go on holiday in Dorset partly because they see it as a haven
from
> >the hip-hop influences.
>
> Perhaps the Dorset Tourist Board should adopt this as a slogan. If
> there are people in London who travel a whole 150 miles south in the
> belief that hip-hop, having crossed the Atlantic getting on for 20 years
> ago, hasn't made it down the M3 yet then they need to get out and about
> a bit more.
That's true ... there's a certain sort of Londoner who views it that way,
sadly. Even now.
> >> And while I'm nitpicking I'm not sure about the redneck thing over in
> >> the other thread. Dorset, like most of the south of England, is
> >> horribly C/conservative, but I think the term 'redneck' has
connotations
> >> (for me at least) that don't really apply.
> >
> >I was referring to the aspirational middle-American country music fans
who
> >seem very common here.
>
> Sorry, you've lost me... very common where?
In Dorset, where I live.
> > As for Cornish hip-
> >> hop...whilst there's certainly nothing wrong with the concept per se, I
> >> have to admit that the idea does raise the slightest hint of a smile
> >> with me, but that may be because you used the words 'isolationist' and
> >> 'protectionist' in the next sentence (for non-UK readers who may not
> >> know, similar words are often used to stereotype Cornishmen.)
> >
> >The real "isolationists" and "protectionists" are those who don't like
the
> >idea of Cornish hip-hop, or for that matter hip-hop in North-East England
> >(cf Chris Moyles on Radio 1, with his "Geordie Rap"). I mentioned Mick
> >Jagger because he was a white middle-class English blues singer, which
was
> >the equivalent, in 1965, of being a white middle-class English emcee.
> >
> >I stopped reading the NME partly because I hate their regionalist
> >stereotypes and assumptions,
> >and little instances like the sarcastic
> >phraseology of long-term NME stalwart Roger Morton a propos the Aphex
Twin:
> >"He was born a poor white genius in the ghettos of Cornwall", in a
biography
> >available at http://www.warprecords.com/warp/file/aphex.html ...
> I'll take your word for it - I stopped reading the NME a long time ago
> but, having gone and had a look at this piece, if this is all you're
> worried about I think you're over-reacting.
That piece, yes ... but it got to the stage where, just about every week,
the NME would include a cheap regionalist joke, and as someone else once
said, that joke isn't funny anymore. In successive weeks late last year,
Andy Crysell made the most predictable joke imaginable (about old people)
when the Jungle Brothers played Bournemouth, and the next week he replied
sarcastically to a Weymouth reader for daring to espouse
socialist-revolutionary theories ("out there in the deprived urban
hinterland of Dorset" were Crysell's words).
Earlier in 1998, two different hacks used the phrases "deepest Dorset",
"sleepy Bridport" and "deepest Devon" in the same week's NME. I wrote to
Angst, telling them "This is the NME, not a West Country Tourist Board
brochure". Unsurprisingly, it wasn't printed, because it criticised not who
they had or didn't have on the cover, or who got or didn't get 9 out of 10,
but their entire ethos. Which they can't take.
> >I can see
> >why you find it funny, but just remember that in 1964 people would surely
> >have laughed at a blues band from Newcastle (just as Moyles laughs at
> >hip-hop from there today) ... and then came The Animals' "House of the
> >Rising Sun". Someone, somewhere in Cornwall is putting the finishing
> >touches to a similar bomb right now...
> I'll readily admit that the smile it raises comes from my lazy combining
> of two stereotypes... I'll try harder in future.
Yes, especially because you're from a county people stereotype in much the
same way they do Cornwall.
> >> Andy (just off to puncture some sheep)
> >
> >Oh, don't play into their hands...
>
> >love on ya
> Isn't that VS's line?
Yes, I've sampled it...
robin
la...@my-deja.com
victorian squid wrote:
>
> > that, I apologise. I've just encountered a lot of Americans who
are, and it
> > gets depressing.
>
> I've also encountered a fair amount of Europeans who are
disappointed that
> Al Capone and John Dillinger are no longer walking the streets of
Chicago
> ;).
And *everyone* expects all the denizens of Seattle to wear flannel,
drink a lot of coffee and stand around disconsolately in the rain; in
addition to that, we have the options of being either junkies or
Internet millionaires. I haven't had the heart to put on any flannel
since I've lived here!
Layna
--
Reply to layn...@worldnet.att.net
(but first let the cat out)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Robin Carmody
> > belief that hip-hop, having crossed the Atlantic getting on for 20 years
> > ago, hasn't made it down the M3 yet then they need to get out and about
> > a bit more.
The Victorian Squid wrote:
> I don't find this so amazingly difficult to swallow, myself. There are
> loads of urbanites with idealized visions of small towns and rural life.
> And they really do expect to drive a hundred miles from their home and see
> quaint little stores and small farms and smiling people with rakes.
I'm sure this also goes on in the US, and this is probably your experience
of it, but I can tell you it *definitely* exists in the UK, and I've come up
against it when in London, and when Londoners move here (often in search of
precisely that kind of idealized vision).
> That hiphop is not part of their vision is to be expected. I'd also expect
> that rock and roll, soul, ska, reggae, punk, salsa, bossa nova, outside
> jazz, and a host of other musics are not part of the soundtrack in their
> heads either.
But in my experience (which is exclusively British, so limited), they tend
to be *particularly* anti-hip-hop.
> But I do find a bit hard to believe that the music Robin (or anyone,
> really) listens to in his own home is a matter of great concern to them. I
> can see it coming into conflict with their imagination if someone is out
> there playing it loudly on a boombox or their car radio or something, but
> if it's only in Robin's personal space I'm sort of bemused as to how they
> would even KNOW what music he liked.
I was mostly referring to your first example - occasionally I go through
villages in mid-Dorset and hear sound systems playing hip-hop at top volume,
and that *definitely* interferes with their vision. If it's only in my
personal space ... I think they're prepared to tolerate it, but I also think
they'd *rather* I didn't listen to it.
love on ya
robin
Robin Carmody
> >> >I was referring to the aspirational middle-American country music fans
> >who
> >> >seem very common here.
> >>
> >> Sorry, you've lost me... very common where?
> >
> >In Dorset, where I live.
>
> Well, this reads as if you're encountering lots of aspirational middle-
> American country music fans in Dorset, but I think it would be
> disingenuous of me to take it that way. If you mean there are a lot of
> middle class aspirational people in Dorset then, yes, I suppose so. But
> middle class these days is a broad church and in a consumer society like
> ours *not* to be aspirational to some extent would be to vary from the
> norm. I don't want to seem like I have some bizarre sense of county-
> based patriotism, it's just that I don't see this part of the country
> being much different to any other in respect to the characteristics you
> mention.
You're probably right ... but actually, I simply meant that country music
seems very popular where I live. Nothing else was intended.
> I think I stopped listening to Radio 1 even before I gave up reading the
> NME.
Oooh, a man of taste ... but just think back to 1988, the days of "Stutter
Rap" and "Pump Up The Bitter", and you'll get an idea of what Moyles was
doing.
> > I mentioned Mick
> >> >Jagger because he was a white middle-class English blues singer, which
> >was
> >> >the equivalent, in 1965, of being a white middle-class English emcee.
> Hmmm. Rightly or wrongly (see the other thread) pop history has judged
> Mr Jagger to be a *good* white middle-class English blues singer. The
> only white English emcees that spring to mind right now (and I'm more
> than happy to be corrected) are Mr C (of The Shamen) and that chap who
> used to call himself MC Tunes. Of course this isn't to say that there
> never will be a good white English emcee (of any social grouping) but
> the signs aren't good:)
Have you heard Prime & Kela (from Misterton in Somerset)? They are
*dedicated* to hip-hop, and have made some pretty good records. There's a
similar strangeness born out of geographical isolation that you get in the
early Aphex Twin records (the ones made when he was still in Cornwall),
strangely enough.
> Perhaps I'm too lenient but I would be inclined to put it down to lazy
> journalism rather than some kind of Capitalist conspiracy to belittle
> the provinces.
I think you're right ... it *is* just lazy journalism, ultimately. I
hope...
I can imagine, however, it would be rather dispiriting
> if you were an aspiring musician living in an easily mocked district.
> Would you fall into that category by any chance?
No, but I feel for those who are, and also I think this kind of thing can
serve to reinforce the prejudices of people in other parts of Britain.
Right, now we should start talking about something relevant to Momists
beyond the UK...
robin
Robin Carmody
> >I'm sure that most people in the rest of Britain, and *definitely* most
> >people in the rest of the world, don't think that Dorset is or should be
> >trapped 100 years ago or have any problem with the fact that I listen to
> >hip-hop. However...
Kathryn wrote:
> Well, delurking and making a (fairly useless, I suspect) observation,
> most of the Americans I've met in Dorset seem to be surprised that I
> don't live in a thatched cottage and chew on straws. This, obviously,
> only says something about the people from the US I come into contact
> with, and not everyone from North American. But it is still annoying.
Which kind of proves my point. That kind of American *still* exists, and I
can vouch for it as well. But obviously I wouldn't generalise about the
whole of the US.
> To be honest though, a lot of people in Dorset DO live in villages with
> five houses and thatched roofs where the gene pool is somewhat limited.
Yes, but even they have modems, and no amount of parochialism will turn back
the clock once you have the Internet.
> However, they do tend to go to private school more than become farmers
> at 15. I don't feel like defending Dorset because I haven't really met
> any interesting people here,
Neither have I, actually, but there are wider concerns...
which is why it's somewhat surprising to
> find two in one small newsgroup :) Something about Momus, perhaps...
Oooh, you can't hold him back!
robin (waiting for a thread with remote international relevance!)
Andy Coles
>
>Well, delurking and making a (fairly useless, I suspect) observation,
>most of the Americans I've met in Dorset seem to be surprised that I
>don't live in a thatched cottage and chew on straws. This, obviously,
>only says something about the people from the US I come into contact
>with, and not everyone from North American. But it is still annoying.
A couple of days ago I would have said that this unfairly stereotyped
American tourists, but given posts from Robin and the Squid I'm not so
sure now.
>
>To be honest though, a lot of people in Dorset DO live in villages with
>five houses and thatched roofs where the gene pool is somewhat limited.
Surely the population of a single town like Bournemouth or Poole
outnumbers the inhabitants of all the tiny hamlets in Dorset put
together. And as for the gene pool I understand that the horseless
carriage, like hip-hop, has made inroads into village life, largely
negating the *need* for incest... At this point I'd just like to get in
a plug for the fiction of Jonathan Meades (better known for being a
restaurant critic for one of the broadsheets, a writer on architecture
and for his various BBC2 series.) There's a book of short stories
'Filthy English' which touches upon other things incest in the depths of
the New Forest, and a wonderful sprawling novel 'Pompey' (subtitled
'the sleaze epic.') I mention him here not only because he is one of my
favourite writers but because he apparently comes from around this area
and doesn't seem afraid to write sophisticated and literate fiction
about somewhere that, as we have seen, is more used to being a target
for cheap shots.
>However, they do tend to go to private school more than become farmers
>at 15.
And when they get to 18 go on to take some sort of media degree at
Bournemouth University like, it sometimes seems, at least 75% of the
local populace.
> I don't feel like defending Dorset because I haven't really met
>any interesting people here, which is why it's somewhat surprising to
>find two in one small newsgroup :) Something about Momus, perhaps...
>
>Kathryn
Maybe we need to promote a new stereotype for Dorset - we're all
Internet-using Momus fans. Borders are currently building a big new
store in Bournemouth - perhaps we should petition them to invite Momus
to perform the opening ceremony.
--
Andy
CountV
> And *everyone* expects all the denizens of Seattle to wear flannel,
> drink a lot of coffee and stand around disconsolately in the rain; in
> addition to that, we have the options of being either junkies or
> Internet millionaires.
Please, don't forget the Junkie Internet Millionaires.
Heroin.com
CV/John
--
"I recognize no method of living that I know, I see only the basic materials
I may use" - 'Red Guitar', David Sylvian
design by Coercion; http://www.m-ideas.com/coercion/index.htm
victorian squid
> addition to that, we have the options of being either junkies or
> Internet millionaires.
Nuh uh! You can also be a guitar player!
I hope you're excited at the range of careers available to you :).
Love on ya,
v. squid
--
"Please don't bury me down in that cold cold ground
No I'm gonna have em cut me up and pass me all around
Throw my brain in a hurricane and the blind can have my eyes
And the deaf can take botha my ears if they don't mind the size"- John Prine
Robin Carmody
> >Well, delurking and making a (fairly useless, I suspect) observation,
> >most of the Americans I've met in Dorset seem to be surprised that I
> >don't live in a thatched cottage and chew on straws. This, obviously,
> >only says something about the people from the US I come into contact
> >with, and not everyone from North American. But it is still annoying.
Andy wrote:
> A couple of days ago I would have said that this unfairly stereotyped
> American tourists, but given posts from Robin and the Squid I'm not so
> sure now.
Yes, I see what you mean...
> >To be honest though, a lot of people in Dorset DO live in villages with
> >five houses and thatched roofs where the gene pool is somewhat limited.
>
> Surely the population of a single town like Bournemouth or Poole
> outnumbers the inhabitants of all the tiny hamlets in Dorset put
> together. And as for the gene pool I understand that the horseless
> carriage, like hip-hop, has made inroads into village life, largely
> negating the *need* for incest... At this point I'd just like to get in
> a plug for the fiction of Jonathan Meades (better known for being a
> restaurant critic for one of the broadsheets, a writer on architecture
> and for his various BBC2 series.) There's a book of short stories
> 'Filthy English' which touches upon other things incest in the depths of
> the New Forest, and a wonderful sprawling novel 'Pompey' (subtitled
> 'the sleaze epic.') I mention him here not only because he is one of my
> favourite writers but because he apparently comes from around this area
> and doesn't seem afraid to write sophisticated and literate fiction
> about somewhere that, as we have seen, is more used to being a target
> for cheap shots.
I think I said yesterday that the early Aphex Twin stuff (when he was still
in Cornwall) has a beauty borne out of geographical isolation ... I can also
sense that in the hip-hop of Prime & Kela (Misterton, Somerset), 7MB (North
Devon) and others.
> >However, they do tend to go to private school more than become farmers
> >at 15.
>
> And when they get to 18 go on to take some sort of media degree at
> Bournemouth University like, it sometimes seems, at least 75% of the
> local populace.
Hmmm ... you didn't know *I* was thinking of applying there, did you? I'd
have thought rather too many of them go to Parkstone Grammar School, but I
speak from bitter experience on trains.
> > I don't feel like defending Dorset because I haven't really met
> >any interesting people here, which is why it's somewhat surprising to
> >find two in one small newsgroup :) Something about Momus, perhaps...
You can *never* hold him back...
> Maybe we need to promote a new stereotype for Dorset - we're all
> Internet-using Momus fans.
Hmmm, at least it's a stereotype with some acknowledgement of the modern
age...
Borders are currently building a big new
> store in Bournemouth - perhaps we should petition them to invite Momus
> to perform the opening ceremony.
When does that open? I'll be there...
love on ya
robin
victorian squid
> I'm sure this also goes on in the US, and this is probably your experience
> of it
Well, I actually -could- drive an hour and a half from Chicago and be in
some pretty bucolic territory :).
I remember reading recently that something like 90 percent of the land in
US is classified as undeveloped. Not underdeveloped. Undeveloped. I know
it sounds high, especially given the seemingly endless amount of
stripmalls one sees in suburban and urban areas, but drive through the
Midwest or the Southeast (not to mention Alaska ferchrissakes) and it
doesn't look so farfetched.
Anyway, sure, of course it happens. People looking to live inside a Norman
Rockwell painting are common, and commonly disappointed :). The almost
-over- use of it as a subject for comedy, from the sublimely funny S.J.
Perelman pieces on the subject to the comparatively limp Chevy Chase
vehicle "Funny Farm", would indicate that it's a huge part of the cultural
subconscious. And let's not even get into the popularity of the "I lived
in rural areas of Europe and encountered quaint natives" genre in both the
US and England, so hilariously slammed by Mr. Jarvis Cocker in "I Spy".
> I was mostly referring to your first example - occasionally I go through
> villages in mid-Dorset and hear sound systems playing hip-hop at top volume,
> and that *definitely* interferes with their vision.
They could just be annoyed by it. I know it annoys the shit out of me that
people are constantly driving down my street listening to it at top
volume, actually :).
> personal space ... I think they're prepared to tolerate it, but I also think
> they'd *rather* I didn't listen to it.
Here's a question- what do you think they'd prefer? Seriously.
Robin Carmody
> > I was mostly referring to your first example - occasionally I go through
> > villages in mid-Dorset and hear sound systems playing hip-hop at top
volume,
> > and that *definitely* interferes with their vision.
The Squid wrote:
> They could just be annoyed by it. I know it annoys the shit out of me that
> people are constantly driving down my street listening to it at top
> volume, actually :).
Yes, but I think that type of American tourist is annoyed by it for deeper
reasons.
> > personal space ... I think they're prepared to tolerate it, but I also
think
> > they'd *rather* I didn't listen to it.
>
> Here's a question- what do you think they'd prefer? Seriously.
I don't think they seriously expect me to listen to folk music (although
actually I'd rather listen to The Beta Band, who fuse folk with hip-hop,
than I would most other British bands). I think they'd just rather I listen
to bland chart-pop or MOR ballads. I think Momus fits into their vision
even less than hip-hop!
love on ya
robin