Nasty, Brutish and Short
Vanessa Siegl
Robin Carmody <ro...@elidor.freeserve.co.uk> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
8g9blr$n76$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> So I assume I'm the first person to share my thoughts on the new Momus
> thought ...
hello ...now writing from the comfor of my room ..this is phantastic.
I liked the thought ... absolutely agreed on Punk ... although I guess I am
too young to judge.
it is illegal in Britain to have oral sex? I think that's ..funny.
it probably isn't, though.
off to downloading again ... I need loads of stuff .. *fun*!
love van/essaxxx
Robin Carmody
> hello ...now writing from the comfor of my room ..this is phantastic.
> I liked the thought ... absolutely agreed on Punk ... although I guess I
am
> too young to judge.
That said, I do feel that a certain amount of uncontrolled agression was
necessary ***at the time*** ... but it's continued far too long and gone far
too far now, of course, and this country has become an ever more repressive
and backward-looking place to live with every year that has passed since.
> it is illegal in Britain to have oral sex? I think that's ..funny.
> it probably isn't, though.
>
> off to downloading again ... I need loads of stuff .. *fun*!
I'm off to find new ways of escape :).
Robin
--------
np: Momus, "The Day The Circus Came To Town"
http://www.elidor.freeserve.co.uk - major update coming soon!
dym...@ripco.com
Robin Carmody wrote:
>
> So I assume I'm the first person to share my thoughts on the new Momus
> thought ...
>
> And I agree with every word of it. It articulates my own frustration
> perfectly. Far be it from me to defend my own country simply because I live
> here - that is the route of the far-Right, to always stand up for what you
> were born to.
>
> For me, this *is* the most repressive nation in Europe. And I don't think
> anyone could put it better than Nick.
Is this really true, though? Or maybe I should ask the
degree to which it is true. I'm wondering what some
other Brits have to say about it. I mean, there really
can't be only about five interesting people in London. :)
I'll just try to be "liberal" and refrain from comment,
but it does account for some past frustrations I've had
with British friends. It's more macho a place
than Americans are encouraged to think (via tv). But you
know, we have plenty of people here whose idea of excitement
is to hang around in sports bars, which are very much like
your pubs, from what I've seen. Actually, I could have
sworn he was writing about Cubs fans!
I was amused to see the word "dude" crop up in this essay.
--
Kerry
Robin Carmody
> Is this really true, though? Or maybe I should ask the
> degree to which it is true. I'm wondering what some
> other Brits have to say about it. I mean, there really
> can't be only about five interesting people in London. :)
He's exaggerating to an extent, and I must admit I don't go as far as him
... I feel that, frustrating as the aggressive element in modern British
society can be, the stiffness, emotional restraint and stultifying
politeness of the old Britain was just as bad, and it was even more about a
total embarrassment with sex and a polite xenophobia than the post-punk form
of Britishness is (the Daily Telegraph is still living in this world, for
one). While my discontent with British values is not on his scale, I share
many of his feelings, but I admire him for correcting himself ***three
times*** in succession and reminding himself, and us, that most of the US is
not like that. I'm sure large parts of it are as frustrating and
claustrophobic as much of "provincial" Britain is.
> I'll just try to be "liberal" and refrain from comment,
> but it does account for some past frustrations I've had
> with British friends. It's more macho a place
> than Americans are encouraged to think (via tv).
True, and the tendency of American TV channels to buy only the British
programmes which reflect a past way of life, only ever lived by the upper
and middle classes anyway, has distorted this country's reputation no end.
I've always found that old British culture very interesting, but I've been
more fascinated by semi-surrealist, brutal descriptions of it, and then
escape / destruction ... it should come as no surprise that "If..." is one
of my favourite films ever.
But you
> know, we have plenty of people here whose idea of excitement
> is to hang around in sports bars, which are very much like
> your pubs, from what I've seen. Actually, I could have
> sworn he was writing about Cubs fans!
Erm ... "Cubs" ... is that a sports team? I may have written previously
that Nick's slightly idealistic tendencies towards Italy don't exactly fit
with the Neanderthal football stadium culture and neo-fascist, racist
football crowds, who are now far more of a problem in Italy than here, so I
can see where you're coming from.
I'm still terrified of greater internet censorship in this country, though.
Robin
--------
np: "Paper Wraps Rock"
http://www.elidor.freeserve.co.uk/day.htm - the restraint of Old Britain.
dym...@ripco.com
Robin Carmody wrote:
>
> Kerry wrote:
> > Actually, I could have
> > sworn he was writing about Cubs fans!
>
> Erm ... "Cubs" ... is that a sports team?
It's supposed to be, but IMO, it isn't. :)
--
Kerry
Robin Carmody
> > Erm ... "Cubs" ... is that a sports team?
Kerry wrote:
> It's supposed to be, but IMO, it isn't. :)
See what you mean ... I've encountered enough of those myself :).
Robin
--------
np: James Lucas, "Mr Moore You've Got A Lovely Daughter"
http://www.elidor.freeserve.co.uk/startup.htm - an old English ritual.
Nick Currie
> programmes which reflect a past way of life, only ever lived by the upper
> and middle classes anyway, has distorted this country's reputation no end.
Actually, here in New York the only televisual sign that Britain exists
takes the form of reruns of 'Are You Being Served?' which I assume has a
large gay following in Gotham and neighbouring Gomorrah.
> ... it should come as no surprise that "If..." is one
> of my favourite films ever.
Was just reading in the Grauniad online version about his self-hatred
(not to mention exile in the face of contempt by the British
establishment) on discovering he was gay at a time when all homosexual
acts in the UK were illegal.
Was also just reading dear old Geilgud's obituary, and learned that he
had been arrested for 'importuning' youths in the 50s, and almost been
expelled from Equity as a result. No wonder he took off for Broadway to
do Albee. He had a choice of surrealisms there, it seems to me, the
British trad surrealism you talk about, and the American-French
surrealism of Absurd Theatre.
Nick
Current listening: Max Tundra: Some Best Friend You Turned Out To Be
Robin Carmody
> > True, and the tendency of American TV channels to buy only the British
> > programmes which reflect a past way of life, only ever lived by the
upper
> > and middle classes anyway, has distorted this country's reputation no
end.
Nick wrote:
> Actually, here in New York the only televisual sign that Britain exists
> takes the form of reruns of 'Are You Being Served?' which I assume has a
> large gay following in Gotham and neighbouring Gomorrah.
Still kind of old-school "English" in that Whitehall farce sense of the
word, though.
> > ... it should come as no surprise that "If..." is one
> > of my favourite films ever.
>
> Was just reading in the Grauniad online version about his self-hatred
> (not to mention exile in the face of contempt by the British
> establishment) on discovering he was gay at a time when all homosexual
> acts in the UK were illegal.
I've long found Lindsay Anderson very interesting, almost as much so as I do
Derek Jarman, and for not dissimilar reasons ... Anderson seems to have been
one of the very few genuinely intelligent figures in British cinema. One of
my main early inspirations was reading a 1969 book on his work, and I'd like
to quote the following because it reminds me very much of your position:
"If I go to Cannes, for instance, I am asked questions about Free Cinema; if
I go to Warsaw, I am asked questions about Free Cinema. In Britain they
don't know what it is ... when the British Governmental representative had
seen "If" at Cannes he came to the stand of the British Film Producers'
Association chattering with rage, and said it was disgusting that such a
film should be shown."
Anderson strikes me as a very Momus-like film-maker, especially in the
incredible sense of escape and release he articulated in the animalised,
growling sex scene of "If ..."
> Was also just reading dear old Geilgud's obituary, and learned that he
> had been arrested for 'importuning' youths in the 50s, and almost been
> expelled from Equity as a result. No wonder he took off for Broadway to
> do Albee. He had a choice of surrealisms there, it seems to me, the
> British trad surrealism you talk about, and the American-French
> surrealism of Absurd Theatre.
And did better for it ... most of the really creative figures in British
film and theatrical history were un-Brutish, and even when they used the
iconography and language of traditional "Englishness" it was a completely
different take on it, cf Powell & Pressburger of course.
---------
Robin
Nick Currie
> film and theatrical history were un-Brutish, and even when they used the
> iconography and language of traditional "Englishness" it was a completely
> different take on it, cf Powell & Pressburger of course.
Or dear old Joe Orton, whose name I'm delighted to appear alongside in
The Times. Orton's grotesque sitcom style owes as much to Gombrowicz as
it does to naughty seaside postcards.
I wonder if Johnny Rotten would claim someone like Orton as a
progenitor? I see him as a bit of a Beckett, and I remember the (old)
NME running a cover story on him titled 'L'Homme Revolte', drawing a
direct parallel with Camus' Rebel.
I rewrote the piece slightly at the end to portray Lydon as an innocent
(and, essentially, an Irishman) goaded by class hatred into portraying
himself as an antichrist, in a Dickensian pantomime villain sort of way.
That's one way creative people can excorcise the demons of their
(trained and ingrained) sense of inferiority, and turn them into some
sort of demonic triumph.
I still wish people didn't have to resort to these strategies in the
first place, though.
Nick
Robin Carmody
> I wonder if Johnny Rotten would claim someone like Orton as a
> progenitor? I see him as a bit of a Beckett, and I remember the (old)
> NME running a cover story on him titled 'L'Homme Revolte', drawing a
> direct parallel with Camus' Rebel.
>
> I rewrote the piece slightly at the end to portray Lydon as an innocent
> (and, essentially, an Irishman) goaded by class hatred into portraying
> himself as an antichrist, in a Dickensian pantomime villain sort of way.
> That's one way creative people can excorcise the demons of their
> (trained and ingrained) sense of inferiority, and turn them into some
> sort of demonic triumph.
Indeed - the pressure of anti-intellectualism pushing down people's backs.
A very accurate analysis of Lydon's situation.
> I still wish people didn't have to resort to these strategies in the
> first place, though.
As do I ... it comes, as you say, from the constraints and repression of a
class-ridden and class-riven society, that this tactic is forced on people
who are, genuinely, above it.
-------
Robin
frank being
>Current listening: Max Tundra: Some Best Friend You Turned Out To Be
That stuff is sick, Nick! Good choice!
.ir.
- - -
My subjectivity and the creator : this is too much for one brain.
--Lautremont
John Thelin
Usenet, for all the world to see, the following:
>
> Robin Carmody <ro...@elidor.freeserve.co.uk> wrote :
>
>> Erm ... "Cubs" ... is that a sports team?
>
> Oh, as if I weren't already excessively fond of Robin, now he's showing
> ignorance of sports teams! Honestly, he's just doing this to TEASE me,
> isn't he?
Don't get too hot and bothered, even the most sports-obsessed Europeans
would be hard pressed to know off-hand what 'The Cubs' are.
--
CountV/John T
"Entropy and irony live together in perfect harmony." - The Brunching
Shuttlecocks
alt.fan.momus homepage; http://www.m-ideas.com/afm/index.htm
John's World - http://www.m-ideas.com/jw/index.htm
james...@my-deja.com
..have a tie-in re:Cannes below...as well as some thoughts about The
Thought
Nick wrote at http://www.demon.co.uk/momus/thought210500.html
...recently proposed flogging me the lot for a hundred quid just to free
up the space in their warehouse.
Me:
even though we’re talking text, If there were only a way to make MP3s
pay...no more warehousing hassles! (bringers of gatekeys/wearers of rio)
Nick:
But I think that if you look deeper you
see a fear of diversity itself, a fear of the breakup of consensus and
unity, which is
very deep in Brutish culture, where the idea of tribe (football team,
band loyalty) is always being uneasily reconciled with the idea of
nation.
Me:
One wonders if the unification efforts of Elizabeth the First worked too
well...
Nick:
Hello, Earth to Prince Charles! The world is already
a huge laboratory, it's called Nature. It's
experimental, it's dangerous, it's cutting edge.
Nothing is in control of it,
Me: except physics. The more changes we make to the basic systems the
more we create the unknown, so therefore we can control it to the extent
of rate*distance
beyond a sort of
opportunistic proliferation. There is no ultimate
purpose behind it all.
Me:
The ultimate purpose is HARVEST, and finding new ways to EXPLOIT. We
created dust bowls and love canal, we created selective industrial uses
of selected systems. Locked those uses into the American psyche,
use systems that engender waste
We live in a huge, out-of-control experiment.
Me;
Yes, Nick we do...so eat your veggies, drink alot of good water and
exercise that PC muscle.
..I won't even go into the much more serious introduction of the
Regulation of Investigatory Powers Bill (RIP), the legislation which
restricts key escrow encryption and makes ISPs responsible for all
content carried on the internet, which threatens to nip in the bud
the whole future of weblife in Britain, and make it the most reactionary
nation in the digital world outside of China and Iran.
Me: There’s probably moral majority whacks in the US just waiting to see
how that comes down!
Filth And The Fury
I recently saw Julien Temple's new Sex Pistols documentary,
'The Filth And The Fury'. It's a good film,
Me:
Almost went into that one but instead saw “Ghost Dog”, great film, Wu
Tang and RZA soundtrack.
.. PRML SCRM,
Unkle, and the massed ranks of punky yuppies in combat trousers)
Me:
And now their girlfriends in leather lingerie...did any other
voyeurs check the archive from Cannes from last Thurs?
There was actually one chick with a bobbed haircut wearing a black
leather teddy with the words Victoria Secret in studs across her
midriff...no lie, I was howling!
... I have Plone, Broadcast and MaxTundra
Me:
Yes I got Broadcast this past weekend, and surprise I like it. Much more
creative/genuine musically than those other bands with the word stereo in
their names.
James
Fakeways West Rules!
(the Fakeways cheer: Westcoast! Fake, fake..throw a sign, make it up like
it's by design!)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Tom
>So I assume I'm the first person to share my thoughts on the new Momus
>thought ...
>
>And I agree with every word of it. It articulates my own frustration
>perfectly. Far be it from me to defend my own country simply because I live
>here - that is the route of the far-Right, to always stand up for what you
>were born to.
I *quite* liked the Thought - it just didn't seem to describe the
London or England I'm familiar with. For me the problem is not so much
that it's repressive but that Britain's liberated qualities are so
half-hearted and ironised that they end up being just as frustrating
and straitjacketing as the (much more full-blooded) aggression and
sexophobia etc.
Was it intentional I wonder that this came out so close to the opening
of Tate Modern, which I can't comment on as I haven't been to it yet,
but the general consensus seems to be that it's a) very good and b)
what a surprise that it's here of all places.
I do worry somewhat that Momus' criteria for whether a country is
culturally healthy seems to be how many Momus records get sold there,
too. ;)
Cheers,
Tom.
np: Belle And Sebastian - "The State I Am In"
Freaky Trigger: http://www.freakytrigger.com
The Bad Music Issue
http://www.freakytrigger.com/hate.html
Bands execrated upon request.
Layna Andersen
Robin Carmody <ro...@elidor.freeserve.co.uk> wrote :
> Erm ... "Cubs" ... is that a sports team?
Oh, as if I weren't already excessively fond of Robin, now he's showing
ignorance of sports teams! Honestly, he's just doing this to TEASE me,
isn't he?
Layna
Layna Andersen
Nick Currie <ni...@momus.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:392966...@momus.demon.co.uk...
>
> Was also just reading dear old Geilgud's obituary, and learned that he
> had been arrested for 'importuning' youths in the 50s, and almost been
> expelled from Equity as a result.
I initially read this as "importing youths," and wondered why on earth the
domestic ones wouldn't do.
Layna
np: little boys outside in the street singing "We Will Rock You"
Mr. Kite
Bible Belt and it can be quite hard on the creative at times as well.
Although it sounds like Britain is a much more extreme case, I think
it's important to remember that some places in America aren't all that
peachy either. For example, in much of the "underground" music scene,
there seems to be more acting -being acting cool and making sure you
are "at the scene"- than playing -being actively enjoying the scene
and the music it produces...
Btw, I have been reading Frank Zappa's autobiography lately and he has
a lot of interesting criticisms about Britain in it as well (though
most of those are aimed at the pompous legal system).
Thanks for the thought!
Adam Bruneau
"Vanessa Siegl" <vaness...@chello.at> wrote:
>
>Robin Carmody <ro...@elidor.freeserve.co.uk> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
>8g9blr$n76$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> So I assume I'm the first person to share my thoughts on the new Momus
>> thought ...
>
>
>
>hello ...now writing from the comfor of my room ..this is phantastic.
>I liked the thought ... absolutely agreed on Punk ... although I guess I am
>too young to judge.
>
>it is illegal in Britain to have oral sex? I think that's ..funny.
>it probably isn't, though.
>
>off to downloading again ... I need loads of stuff .. *fun*!
>
>
>love van/essaxxx
>
>
>
>
Jamie Anderson
<vaness...@chello.at> wrote:
>
>it is illegal in Britain to have oral sex? I think that's ..funny.
>it probably isn't, though.
Many places have laws against "unnatural acts" that leave plenty of
room for interpretation.
Having read the thought I can't help thinking that down here in
Australia all the worst aspects of Brutish culture have been distilled
then exported back. (re: Rupert Murdoch, Rugby and New Labour)
Could it be that fearing brute culture might not survive the
enlightenment, a colony was set up on the other side of the world as a
kind of yob sanctuary?
Jamie
Robin Carmody
> Btw, I have been reading Frank Zappa's autobiography lately and he has
> a lot of interesting criticisms about Britain in it as well (though
> most of those are aimed at the pompous legal system).
Wasn't he banned from playing the Albert Hall in London at some point?
Robin
--------
np: The Auteurs, "Future Generation"
http://www.elidor.freeserve.co.uk/johnny.htm - how Fake Folk began.
Robin Carmody
> >> Erm ... "Cubs" ... is that a sports team?
Layna:
> > Oh, as if I weren't already excessively fond of Robin, now he's showing
> > ignorance of sports teams! Honestly, he's just doing this to TEASE me,
> > isn't he?
CountV:
> Don't get too hot and bothered, even the most sports-obsessed Europeans
> would be hard pressed to know off-hand what 'The Cubs' are.
Wouldn't call myself sports-*obsessed*, but you're right ... I doubt whether
even the most sport-fixated people in this country have heard of "The Cubs",
anymore than American sports obsessives could recognise English football
teams :).
Robin
--------
np: Broadcast, "Unchanging Windows"
http://www.elidor.freeserve.co.uk/music.htm - Top 10 updated daily!
Robin Carmody
> One wonders if the unification efforts of Elizabeth the First worked too
> well...
Well she certainly inspired one of your best songs IMHO, so maybe we can
forgive her for that alone ...
> Almost went into that one but instead saw "Ghost Dog", great film, Wu
> Tang and RZA soundtrack.
How is it? I've kind of fallen out of touch with the Wu's recent
developments, but I thought Method Man's "Tical 2000" was horribly
underrated ("Spazzola" was one of the tightest funk pieces in years).
> Yes I got Broadcast this past weekend, and surprise I like it. Much more
> creative/genuine musically than those other bands with the word stereo in
> their names.
Got to admit, I'm very pleased to see "Come On Let's Go" in Tom's current
Top 10 ... the closest we've come to prime Joe Meek in years.
Robin
--------
np: Max Tundra, "Doggy Biscuits"
http://www.elidor.freeserve.co.uk/plone.htm - one of my earliest pieces.
Robin Carmody
> I *quite* liked the Thought - it just didn't seem to describe the
> London or England I'm familiar with.
Doesn't mean it isn't applicable to many experiences and environments,
though. Most of my own life (yours may be totally different, of course) has
seemed like that, and I do find London totally lacking in the instant
charisma and excitement, when I get there, that I *imagine* Tokyo would
have.
For me the problem is not so much
> that it's repressive but that Britain's liberated qualities are so
> half-hearted and ironised that they end up being just as frustrating
> and straitjacketing as the (much more full-blooded) aggression and
> sexophobia etc.
That's true - British liberalism can very often seem embarrassed with
itself, just not *wanting* to carry things further, and underestimating the
scale of the problem.
> Was it intentional I wonder that this came out so close to the opening
> of Tate Modern, which I can't comment on as I haven't been to it yet,
> but the general consensus seems to be that it's a) very good and b)
> what a surprise that it's here of all places.
While I imagine I'd find it fascinating, I think the *national* condition of
Britain, rather than one admittedly brilliant development in its capital, is
the main subject for discussion here.
> I do worry somewhat that Momus' criteria for whether a country is
> culturally healthy seems to be how many Momus records get sold there,
> too. ;)
My suspicion is that Nick makes his own success or otherwise in a particular
country into a metaphor for all kinds of other attitudes in that place ...
and I can see where he's coming from, although I wouldn't go *quite* as far.
Robin
--------
np: Broadcast, "Come On Let's Go"
Robin Carmody
> Having read the thought I can't help thinking that down here in
> Australia all the worst aspects of Brutish culture have been distilled
> then exported back. (re: Rupert Murdoch, Rugby and New Labour)
Hmmm ... did Tony Blair steal some of his rhetoric and ideas from Paul
Keating? Totally agreed on Murdoch incidentally, even though Momus was
mentioned at the weekend in one of his papers :).
> Could it be that fearing brute culture might not survive the
> enlightenment, a colony was set up on the other side of the world as a
> kind of yob sanctuary?
Well the British did send their criminals there so ... :).
Robin
--------
np: Broadcast, "Long Was The Year"
http://www.elidor.freeserve.co.uk/day.htm - magic and repression.
Nigel Robinson
eb...@netcomuk.co.uk (Tom) wrote: on the new Momus thought:
>
> I *quite* liked the Thought - it just didn't seem to describe the
> London or England I'm familiar with.
> of Tate Modern, which I can't comment on as I haven't been to it yet,
> but the general consensus seems to be that it's a) very good and b)
> what a surprise that it's here of all places.
>
stil debating whether Nick is being a teasing agent provacateur, or
really means all he says. :-)
As for the Tate Modern - it really is worth all the hype, and I loved
most of it, especially the jarring juxtapositions of artists and
styles. Pity about the crowds, many of whom were there only because of
the hype, and didn't really seem to appreciate what they were seeing.
But - for the benefit of everyone not in the UK - there really is a
definite buzz about the Tate Modern, unlike the Millennium Dome, and
one which which the Press here, for whatever reasons, are presenting as
an indication of how happening Britain is once again.
On the other hand, the biggest event I'm looking forward to in the next
couple of weeks is Laurie Anderson at the Barbican... How un-British
can you get?
NIgel
frank being
>> Almost went into that one but instead saw "Ghost Dog", great film, Wu
>> Tang and RZA soundtrack.
Oh my god! I saw the RZA perform on sunday at the House of Blues in LA. He had
giant wings on! Scary!
Robin Carmody
> But - for the benefit of everyone not in the UK - there really is a
> definite buzz about the Tate Modern, unlike the Millennium Dome,
Don't get me started on *that* doomed attempt to restore a dead national
consensus. I recall Nick's March 98 column "On Transgression", with its
reference to the way nations with withering power vaguely clutch at
meaningless symbols like the Dome, for me one of his best and wisest columns
ever.
But naturally I am saddened (though not surprised) by the news of that
18-year-old girl in North East England, turned down by Oxford University
despite achieving just about the best grades possible, who has followed
another student from the same school and gone to Harvard instead. I can't
think of a greater indication of just what is wrong with this country and
what *is* superior about the US: in a republic, people matter. Not their
accent, or their social background, or what school they went to, but ***who
they are***. It was deeply depressing having to listen to Oxford's director
of admissions on the radio trying to defend herself, when *everyone* could
tell the motives behind her attitudes. There is a regular contributor to
this newsgroup who went to a school where it was *assumed* that you'd go to
either Oxford or Cambridge, there are millions of people who have the entire
system stacked up against their chances of even entering what *are*,
academically, our leading universities. In terms of education, I can hardly
imagine a less equal society than this one ...
Robin
--------
np: Max Tundra, "Life in a Lift Shaft"
http://www.elidor.freeserve.co.uk/telegraph.htm - when Old Britain dies.
Nick Currie
men and women, black and white, playing chess with each other in the
open air. And thought 'How come I've never seen people playing chess in
a park in the centre of London? How come there aren't these tables with
chess boards painted on the top in British parks?' Somehow it seems too
intellectual a pursuit for people to pursue in Britain in the open air.
They're a bit ashamed, and keep it indoors. Perhaps there's even a class
element: it's too bourgeois an activity in Britain to conduct in plain
view of the world and his dog. Whereas here it seems totally democratic.
Also, why can you get such great flavours of Haagen Dazs here (vanilla
pecan, my favourite, or black cherry, or mango) whereas in Britain all
you can get is sticky alcoholic flavours and biscuit shrapnel?
Nick
Kerry
>
> But naturally I am saddened (though not surprised) by the news of that
> 18-year-old girl in North East England, turned down by Oxford University
> despite achieving just about the best grades possible, who has followed
> another student from the same school and gone to Harvard instead. I can't
> think of a greater indication of just what is wrong with this country and
> what *is* superior about the US: in a republic, people matter. Not their
> accent, or their social background, or what school they went to, but ***who
> they are***. It was deeply depressing having to listen to Oxford's director
> of admissions on the radio trying to defend herself, when *everyone* could
> tell the motives behind her attitudes. There is a regular contributor to
> this newsgroup who went to a school where it was *assumed* that you'd go to
> either Oxford or Cambridge, there are millions of people who have the entire
> system stacked up against their chances of even entering what *are*,
> academically, our leading universities.
We have some of that here, too, but then again, we have many
more "elite" universities. But we do have a lot of private
schools that seem to have a direct line to the Ivies. The
school I went to was called a "college prep" school,
meaning that about 90% of the students went to college (the rest
of them usually went into the military). Other schools have
no such preparation. I think the school you go to *does* have
a major impact on whether you get into a Harvard-caliber school.
The thing is, you don't *need* to go to those schools to get
an excellent education.
Still, if you look at the leaders in business and media, it's
clear that the institution name on your diploma will open a
lot of doors for you, whether you're more qualified or not.
We have an excellent state university in Illinois, and you can
get as good an education there as you can at the two major private
institutions, but I've noticed that the mention of my alma
mater raises eyebrows in a way that the University of Illinois
does not, for the simple and stupid reason that U of I graduates
far more people. It's kind of embarrassing, actually, to the
point that I feel overly conspicuous in certain environments,
and I cringe at telling people what my alma mater is - "oh
wow, you must be either very rich or very smart!". The funny
thing is, I only went there because they gave me so much
financial aid that it was cheaper for me to go there. :)
I'm not complaining of course - it's just that the silliness
of people's reactions is depressing. But I think my "college
prep" high school background helped greatly - if anything,
my application probably sat closer to the top of the pile
because of that.
I can't comment on the British system, of course, but all of
my sources tell me that it's far worse. That's not saying
that the American situation is ideal, however, because I think
that Americans betray "their own" ideals on this matter time
and again.
--
Kerry
Kerry
>
> I foot-scootered through Washington Square Park today, passing rows of
> men and women, black and white, playing chess with each other in the
> open air. And thought 'How come I've never seen people playing chess in
> a park in the centre of London? How come there aren't these tables with
> chess boards painted on the top in British parks?' Somehow it seems too
> intellectual a pursuit for people to pursue in Britain in the open air.
> They're a bit ashamed, and keep it indoors. Perhaps there's even a class
> element: it's too bourgeois an activity in Britain to conduct in plain
> view of the world and his dog. Whereas here it seems totally democratic.
You can see that here in Chicago, too! Right out on the lakefront,
there is a little concrete pavilion with chessboards painted *right*
onto the concrete. And it's true - you see people of all ethnicities
and ages playing chess with one another. I was surprised to see it,
too - I don't know what my prejudices about the game had been previously,
since I played against my father growing up, but I was
surprised to see it. I think it's mainly a "big city" thing, and
I think the game is popularized when city kids ride or walk past
other people playing chess in public and think - "hey, that's cool".
It's really weird, because Chicago is a segregated city in lots of
ways, but I'll often see young black men playing alongside or against
old-European-men-in-undershirts. It's kind of a nice thing - seems
very "European" and is no doubt the result of the immigrant influence.
There's also a cafe at the corner of my block with chess boards, and
sometimes when I go in there, I'll see a lone young man, just waiting
for someone to play him. I've never seen any women players, though.
>
> Also, why can you get such great flavours of Haagen Dazs here (vanilla
> pecan, my favourite, or black cherry, or mango) whereas in Britain all
> you can get is sticky alcoholic flavours and biscuit shrapnel?
We take our ice cream very seriously, as you've no doubt guessed by now.
I saw a special on it on tv, and the history of the "weird" ice cream
flavor goes back much, much further than Ben & Jerry's or Haagen Dazs -
I think it has its roots in eccentric "Yankee ingenuity" of the early
twentieth century. I believe they even used to call that sort of food
"novelties". I'm surprised that gelato has not caught on, though,
because it's really, really, really good - better than "ice cream".
--
Kerry
victorian squid
> You can see that here in Chicago, too! Right out on the lakefront,
> there is a little concrete pavilion with chessboards painted *right*
> onto the concrete.
I dunno what you're thinking of but several parks have them. In Hyde
Park there's an outdoor courtyard thing where people go every Sunday and
listen to jazz on their boomboxes and play chess when the weather's
nice. it's fairly lovely. This is where I first saw speed chess, which
if you (generic you, I know Kerry has :)) haven't seen it, is pretty
cool. In Hyde Park people also used to play chess in the bars too, some
still maybe do, but there's an ordinance against gaming in bars that
don't have a games license that some bars decided to enforce. Mostly, I
think, because the chess players take up a table for hours and maybe
spend two dollars on soda the entire evening. I never saw any of the
chess players drinking alcohol. There is a related story about how one
time someone saw two of the "chess guys" have an argument and one of
them banged the table, scattered a few of the pieces onto the floor and
then skulked out of the bar in a pouty funk. It was sometimes referred
to among my friends as "The Great Jimmy's Chess Brawl" and cited as an
illustration of the great need for enforcement of the gaming law, in
order to protect the patrons of Jimmy's Woodlawn Tap from the dangers
posed by violence-prone chess players.
> surprised to see it. I think it's mainly a "big city" thing, and
> I think the game is popularized when city kids ride or walk past
> other people playing chess in public and think - "hey, that's cool".
I would agree that it's a big city thing, and I think maybe.....the
people that play speed chess, especially for money, may be partly
responsible for that since it gives the game a bit more of an aura of
danger and risk, I guess. Something you have to be sharp to play and not
just a game for old men or the effete.
> sometimes when I go in there, I'll see a lone young man, just waiting
> for someone to play him. I've never seen any women players, though.
Where is that? Doug likes to play, I'll send him over and he'll play the
guy all day :).
Love on ya,
v. squid
John Thelin
to the Usenet, for all the world to see, the following:
> This is where I first saw speed chess, which
> if you (generic you, I know Kerry has :)) haven't seen it, is pretty
> cool.
Might I recommend what we dubbed 'Rally Chess' (because, at the time,
'rally' was an adjective me and my friends applied to most everything - I
think you have to be Swedish to truly get it)? It basically works like one
of those video games where if you scroll off to the right, you reappear on
the left. In Rally Chess all three sides except back from yourself are open,
so go out to the left and you enter to the right, go into the other player's
territory and through it, and you come out back in your own area. Backing
off the board doesn't work, because if that border was open, both players
would be in simultaneous check on starting play.
This makes for a much more defensive game, as any game piece is under
potential attack from many more than usually. Play it that way for a while
and then go back to normal chess, and it almost seems easy by comparison.
--
CountV/John T
"Entropy and irony live together in perfect harmony." - The Brunching
Shuttlecocks
Unreal Conspiracy - the Squire/Sherwood computer game link;
http://www.m-ideas.com/yes/consp.htm
Tom
> It was deeply depressing having to listen to Oxford's director
>of admissions on the radio trying to defend herself, when *everyone* could
>tell the motives behind her attitudes. There is a regular contributor to
>this newsgroup who went to a school where it was *assumed* that you'd go to
>either Oxford or Cambridge
I plead guilty.
> there are millions of people who have the entire
>system stacked up against their chances of even entering what *are*,
>academically, our leading universities. In terms of education, I can hardly
>imagine a less equal society than this one ...
Oxbridge's admissions policy is actually a bit more capricious than
mere snobbery would account for. They seem to work essentially from
the basis that they are special, and that therefore they can basically
ignore exam results (once the minimum grades have been achieved)
because they are concerned with potential, 'spark', finding the angel
in the block of marble etc. So the interview, where their 'intuition'
is invoked, becomes incredibly important.
Now, I don't know the circumstances here, but I suspect that the
tutors involved would have privately thought that the girl lacked
flair, was somehow boring, had learned by rote etc. etc. And they
would defend themselves using the argument that you can't quantify
these things, and to an extent that's true, but if you've grown up
around public school people and you're used to them and comfortable
with them, then that's the brand of confidence and spark you'll
respond to. So it's still snobbery, but subconscious rather than
overt.
Cheers,
Tom
frank being
>
>I foot-scootered through Washington Square Park today, passing rows of
>men and women, black and white, playing chess with each other in the
>open air. And thought 'How come I've never seen people playing chess in
>a park in the centre of London? How come there aren't these tables with
>chess boards painted on the top in British parks?' Somehow it seems too
>intellectual a pursuit for people to pursue in Britain in the open air.
>They're a bit ashamed, and keep it indoors. Perhaps there's even a class
>element: it's too bourgeois an activity in Britain to conduct in plain
>view of the world and his dog. Whereas here it seems totally democratic.
I live next door to a dormatory that gets filled with British exchange students
every semester right in the middle of a big city. There is a little liquor
store in between and I like to sit out side of it and drink a beer. I find that
the exchange students LOVE it when I invite them to drink with me in front of a
store. They get so excited when we go to bars that have a big outdoors area.
They always end up running around in their little soccer shorts.
>Also, why can you get such great flavours of Haagen Dazs here (vanilla
>pecan, my favourite, or black cherry, or mango) whereas in Britain all
>you can get is sticky alcoholic flavours and biscuit shrapnel?
We like fruity shit here.
Vanessa Siegl
> You can see that here in Chicago, too! Right out on the lakefront,
> there is a little concrete pavilion with chessboards painted *right*
> surprised to see it. I think it's mainly a "big city" thing, and
> I think the game is popularized when city kids ride or walk past
> other people playing chess in public and think - "hey, that's cool".
no they have that here in Innsbruck too ... in every park there are
hugechessboards with figures to go with it and smaller tables with
chessboards painted opn them. It's mostlys old people that play, though ...
My friend and I always said we wanted to play but never seem to get round to
...ok we've been saying this for the last few monhs anyway ..
maybe he's embarrassed about being beaten by me in ublic ;-)
love van/essaxxx
Kerry
>
> Kerry wrote:
>
> > You can see that here in Chicago, too! Right out on the lakefront,
> > there is a little concrete pavilion with chessboards painted *right*
>
> I dunno what you're thinking of but several parks have them.
I've seen them in the parks that are more inland, but I've
not seen too many people playing chess there. The one I'm
thinking of is on the lakefront, just south of North Avenue,
near where I go lap swimming. It's a little pavilion.
I didn't know they were playing chess for money!
> > sometimes when I go in there, I'll see a lone young man, just waiting
> > for someone to play him. I've never seen any women players, though.
>
> Where is that? Doug likes to play, I'll send him over and he'll play the
> guy all day :).
It's at the corner of Sheridan and Dakin - I forgot the name of
the coffee house. I think it's called Emerald City or something.
It's one of the few neighborhood coffee houses that hasn't been
pushed out by Starbuck's.
--
Kerry
victorian squid
wrote:
> I've seen them in the parks that are more inland, but I've
> not seen too many people playing chess there. The one I'm
> thinking of is on the lakefront, just south of North Avenue,
> near where I go lap swimming. It's a little pavilion.
Oh yeah ok, North Avenue Beach, that's what I thought you were
describing but I wasn't sure.
> I didn't know they were playing chess for money!
I dunno about there. The speed chess guys in Hyde Park did (or do, I
just haven't been there in a long time :)). It's like, I dunno, a
quarter for each opponents' piece you capture and maybe the loser pays
the winner five bucks. It's not big stakes stuff, it's just a little bit
to add some spice. I guess it's possible that some of those guys play
for bigger stakes but from what I've seen it's mostly kinda like penny
poker games for them.
> It's at the corner of Sheridan and Dakin - I forgot the name of
> the coffee house. I think it's called Emerald City or something.
Oh, I know Emerald City. Are you sure that's the place you're thinking
of tho? Just asking cause I wouldn't call Emerald City a coffeehouse,
more like a primarily Middle Eastern deli that has three or four tables
but seems more geared towards takeout. I've stopped in there for falafel
sandwiches before. I couldn't say what corner it's on, I only remember
it's close to the Century Mall. That Wizard of Oz mural makes me think
the current owners may not be the original owners, but they kept it
because it's something people remember. A bit like Rajun Cajun in Hyde
Park, which has actually been an Indian restaurant for a number of years
now- the Indian owners kept the name and still offer Cajun fried chicken.
Muz UK
>As for the Tate Modern - it really is worth all the hype, and I loved
>most of it, especially the jarring juxtapositions of artists and
>styles.
Well I'll be there tomorrow to judge it for myself, and I must say I'm looking
forward to it. There's certainly been a lot of criticism about the
presentation of the works thematically rather than chronologically, but Tate
Britain on Millbank did this a couple of months ago and for my money have come
up with some of the most intriguing displays I've seen there for many years.
I'm looking forward to being similarly thrilled tomorrow at the Modern.
>On the other hand, the biggest event I'm looking forward to in the next
>couple of weeks is Laurie Anderson at the Barbican... How un-British
>can you get?
Hey, you and me both....I'll be there tomorrow night. As well as the show
itself (which sounds like it should be something pretty spectacular) I'm
looking forward to the post show talk as well, her voice has a cadence I could
listen to for hours!
Miles
dym...@ripco.com
victorian squid wrote:
>
> In article <392BCDB9...@ripco.com>, Kerry <dym...@ripco.com>
> wrote:
> > It's at the corner of Sheridan and Dakin - I forgot the name of
> > the coffee house. I think it's called Emerald City or something.
>
> Oh, I know Emerald City. Are you sure that's the place you're thinking
> of tho? Just asking cause I wouldn't call Emerald City a coffeehouse,
> more like a primarily Middle Eastern deli that has three or four tables
> but seems more geared towards takeout.
We must be thinking of two different places. The one
I'm thinking of is further north - right down the
street from the Sheridan L, and they don't make felafel.
Believe me, if there were a felafel joint right down the
street from me, I'd *know* about it, being a felafel fiend!
--
Kerry
Robin Carmody
> We have some of that here, too, but then again, we have many
> more "elite" universities. But we do have a lot of private
> schools that seem to have a direct line to the Ivies. The
> school I went to was called a "college prep" school,
> meaning that about 90% of the students went to college (the rest
> of them usually went into the military). Other schools have
> no such preparation. I think the school you go to *does* have
> a major impact on whether you get into a Harvard-caliber school.
Same as here - looking back through my original posting I think I was
exaggerating the "America: classless" thing, maybe in reaction to my
depression at certain developments at Oxford and Cambridge.
> The thing is, you don't *need* to go to those schools to get
> an excellent education.
Here neither - much of the best education on offer here is in the state
sector, and the problem is always with outmoded perceptions rather than what
is actually true.
> Still, if you look at the leaders in business and media, it's
> clear that the institution name on your diploma will open a
> lot of doors for you, whether you're more qualified or not.
> We have an excellent state university in Illinois, and you can
> get as good an education there as you can at the two major private
> institutions, but I've noticed that the mention of my alma
> mater raises eyebrows in a way that the University of Illinois
> does not, for the simple and stupid reason that U of I graduates
> far more people.
Unfortunately, it's the same here, but perhaps it's inevitable - you can
never realistically hope for as many people to instantly recognise Oxford
Brookes University as recognise Oxford itself.
It's kind of embarrassing, actually, to the
> point that I feel overly conspicuous in certain environments,
> and I cringe at telling people what my alma mater is - "oh
> wow, you must be either very rich or very smart!". The funny
> thing is, I only went there because they gave me so much
> financial aid that it was cheaper for me to go there. :)
> I'm not complaining of course - it's just that the silliness
> of people's reactions is depressing. But I think my "college
> prep" high school background helped greatly - if anything,
> my application probably sat closer to the top of the pile
> because of that.
>
> I can't comment on the British system, of course, but all of
> my sources tell me that it's far worse. That's not saying
> that the American situation is ideal, however, because I think
> that Americans betray "their own" ideals on this matter time
> and again.
You're probably right. When you say "their own" ideals I assume you mean
the original Revolutionary ideal of creating a kind of classless utopia,
removing every last trace of the British old-boy network. Most of the worst
aspects of the British system date back to centuries before 1776, and
removing them is harder in this country than perhaps anywhere else.
Robin
--------
np: The James, "The James"
http://www.elidor.freeserve.co.uk/johnny.htm - playing with Old America.
Robin Carmody
> Oxbridge's admissions policy is actually a bit more capricious than
> mere snobbery would account for. They seem to work essentially from
> the basis that they are special, and that therefore they can basically
> ignore exam results (once the minimum grades have been achieved)
> because they are concerned with potential, 'spark', finding the angel
> in the block of marble etc. So the interview, where their 'intuition'
> is invoked, becomes incredibly important.
Which is how it *seems* from reading articles and listening to interviews by
those responsible for admissions at Oxford - that the "spark" in a student's
personality is important, that exam results are not necessarily even the
main criteria for entry, and that this particular student lacked "that
little extra" as they call it. But ...
> Now, I don't know the circumstances here, but I suspect that the
> tutors involved would have privately thought that the girl lacked
> flair, was somehow boring, had learned by rote etc. etc. And they
> would defend themselves using the argument that you can't quantify
> these things, and to an extent that's true, but if you've grown up
> around public school people and you're used to them and comfortable
> with them, then that's the brand of confidence and spark you'll
> respond to.
Indeed - and maybe there's a certain failure to understand the very
different *kind* of confidence and spark that inevitably comes from
comprehensive schools.
So it's still snobbery, but subconscious rather than
> overt.
True - it tends to lurk inside them and come out without them even
*noticing*, rather than deliberate and *meant*.
Robin
--------
np: The Auteurs, "Sick of Hari Krisna"
http://www.elidor.freeserve.co.uk - past culture dissected.
Robin Carmody
> I foot-scootered through Washington Square Park today, passing rows of
> men and women, black and white, playing chess with each other in the
> open air. And thought 'How come I've never seen people playing chess in
> a park in the centre of London? How come there aren't these tables with
> chess boards painted on the top in British parks?' Somehow it seems too
> intellectual a pursuit for people to pursue in Britain in the open air.
> They're a bit ashamed, and keep it indoors. Perhaps there's even a class
> element: it's too bourgeois an activity in Britain to conduct in plain
> view of the world and his dog. Whereas here it seems totally democratic.
Most of the restrictive and strict elements of British life are
class-inspired in some way, so you're probably right. I also love chess,
not that I've played it for some years, I must confess :).
Robin
--------
np: Max Tundra, "Life in a Lift Shaft"
http://www.elidor.freeserve.co.uk/music.htm - Top 10 updated *often*.
Robin Carmody
> I've just realized this is of very little interest to the wider
> readership of the group. I apologize :).
As are a good proportion of my postings, so you shouldn't worry :).
---------
Robin
Vanessa Siegl
> Most of the restrictive and strict elements of British life are
> class-inspired in some way, so you're probably right. I also love chess,
> not that I've played it for some years, I must confess :).
what about an afm chess competion ..you can play in yahoo as long as you got
an account
love van/essaxxx
victorian squid
> We must be thinking of two different places.
Well, I wondered if I were just really confused or something, so I
looked in the phone book and yep, there are THREE places by the name of
"Emerald City". I wonder if they've all got a 'Wizard of Oz" mural like
the one on Clark does :).
> I'm thinking of is further north - right down the
> street from the Sheridan L, and they don't make felafel.
Ah, ok. Do they sell beans also or just the brew? Just wondering because
I have a friend who lives over by there who keeps telling me about the
neighborhood shop where he buys coffee. I keep forgetting to ask him the
name but I'm thinking this might be the place he means.
I've just realized this is of very little interest to the wider
readership of the group. I apologize :).
Love on ya,
squids
Robin Carmody
> what about an afm chess competion ..you can play in yahoo as long as you
got
> an account
Just thinking I have a Ladybird book "How to Play Chess" or somesuch,
published in 1980, which includes an absolute classic computer that could be
programmed to play it ... how about that for a Momus concept, early
computers and chess in one!
Robin
--------
np: Max Tundra: "Life in a Lift Shaft" (again)
http://www.elidor.freeserve.co.uk - more than you ever imagined.
Kerry
>
> Vanessa:
>
> > what about an afm chess competion ..you can play in yahoo as long as you
> got
> > an account
>
> Just thinking I have a Ladybird book "How to Play Chess" or somesuch,
> published in 1980, which includes an absolute classic computer that could be
> programmed to play it ... how about that for a Momus concept, early
> computers and chess in one!
Yeah, just like the Hal 9000!
--
Kerry
Layna Andersen
Robin Carmody <ro...@elidor.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8ghfuf$u43$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> V.Squid:
>
> > I've just realized this is of very little interest to the wider
> > readership of the group. I apologize :).
>
Yeah, who minds that, around HERE? ;-)
Here in Bellevue, suburb-across-the-lake of Seattle, there's a shopping
center called Crossroads, across the road from me. There is a giant chess
set there, as well as a number of tables with normal-size boards. Any time
you go there, you'll see people playing.
What makes it particularly cool is that this particular neighborhood is
inhabited by many immigrants, from Russia and Korea, Mexico and
Czekoslovakia (sp!), and I have NO idea where else; there are also several
old-folks homes nearby, and a residence for people with Down's Syndrome.
Chess is apparently a universal language, and so you will see players of
every sort competing with players of every other sort, without care for
translation, age, or ability of other kinds besides chess-playing.
Layna
np: vertical blinds rustling in the breeze from the fan
Vanessa Siegl
(afm chess)
> count me in! It's only I have some preconceptions against yahoo so I
> prefer playing simultaneously by email.
> Michael (who lives in a small town, where people also play outdoors)
yeah that'd be cool too. I have a chessboard and figures at home so it
wouldn't e a problem. Actually I need to find them first :-)
(quoting from another post)
>By the way, what about the Knitactive website? I cannot get the clips
>started anymore. Same with other artists. Is this a general
>observation or just a problem of my configuration?
yesss!! I have that problem too. I thought this was _me_ because I got a new
computer and the realplayer kept claiming some plugin was missing when I
tried to listen to something else (online radiostation) ...
love van/essaxxx
--
slowly getting there ....
http://www.crosswinds.net/~clodia/
Robin Carmody
> > Just thinking I have a Ladybird book "How to Play Chess" or somesuch,
> > published in 1980, which includes an absolute classic computer that
could be
> > programmed to play it ... how about that for a Momus concept, early
> > computers and chess in one!
Kerry:
> Yeah, just like the Hal 9000!
I'll hopefully scan it in and put it up on a secret page this weekend ...
Robin
--------
np: Paul Van Dyk featuring Saint Etienne, "Tell Me Why (The Riddle)"
http://www.elidor.freeserve.co.uk - the cultural dissecting table.
eloquent valix
>because it's really, really, really good - better than "ice cream".
>
much better.
much much better.
my italian professoressa took us to a new gelateria in atlanta, and it was just
breathtaking. i even took my xenophobic roommate and he was enamored of the
stuff. i don't even remember it beign that good in italy (of course, i was in
sixth grade, and was touring about the place singing and wearing a red dress
with the atlanta boy choir, so my shame couldve contributed to my repressed
memories).
everyone should eat gelato, at least once a week. especially: kiwi flavor.
oh, i'm neil. hi.
~neil.
your love is BOSS.