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Fatal Utah Land Rover accident - several questions
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Unknown
Mar 19, 2012, 4:43:10 PM3/19/12
to
This appeared today on the web:
http://news.yahoo.com/utah-crash-victim-planning-wedding-proposal-dies-143141366.html
Stuck accelerator AND failed brakes? I'm thinking the accelerator may
have gotten stuck under, or hung up on, a floormat, and he panicked
and burned up the brakes.
Thoughts on this? I'm unfamiliar with Land Rovers, but it seems like
he should have downshifted to a lower gear if automatic, turned off
the engine, and hauled on the emergency brake. Some newer vehicles
won't allow the engine to be turned off.
It probably makes a diff which LR he was driving also. Any
ideas/thoughts?
I checked Mapquest - there's something called "Sardine Summit" so he
may have been on a pretty good grade.
Calling 911 is definitely NOT what I would've done!
http://news.yahoo.com/utah-crash-victim-planning-wedding-proposal-dies-143141366.html
Stuck accelerator AND failed brakes? I'm thinking the accelerator may
have gotten stuck under, or hung up on, a floormat, and he panicked
and burned up the brakes.
Thoughts on this? I'm unfamiliar with Land Rovers, but it seems like
he should have downshifted to a lower gear if automatic, turned off
the engine, and hauled on the emergency brake. Some newer vehicles
won't allow the engine to be turned off.
It probably makes a diff which LR he was driving also. Any
ideas/thoughts?
I checked Mapquest - there's something called "Sardine Summit" so he
may have been on a pretty good grade.
Calling 911 is definitely NOT what I would've done!
DaveB
Mar 20, 2012, 8:41:33 AM3/20/12
to
In article <746fm7t8arvle7d5g...@4ax.com>, Just_Interested
<> says...
> http://news.yahoo.com/utah-crash-victim-planning-wedding-proposal-dies-143141366.html
>
Presumably a Disco or RR?
Not 100% sure with the modern cars, and US spec too, but just turning
the key ONE click back, could have cut the engine WITHOUT locking the
steering, but he could have lost lights then. Or, as someone suggestd,
he could have put the thing in Neutral, again, not 100% sure if all the
variations of transmission would allow that. OK, the engine would have
been racing at full RPM, but the drive would have been cut off, and he'd
not have lost power steering, lights, or what was left of the brakes.
(Even metal to metal, would do something to slow it down.)
applying the parking brake on many LR vehicles while it is moving (and
fast) is less of a good idea.
Sad for the family, but when I learnt to drive (Wayyyyyy back!) They
used to teach you how the car worked (at a basic level) too, also
teaching you what to do in an emergency, at least, what was safe to
do...
I do know someone who put a GM V8 in a Defender 110, replacing the fuel
injection for a 4 barrel Holly carb. It went like stink, but at one
point, his cobbled together throttle linkage "flipped over center", and
jammed full open!...
Oddly, for someone who had actually built the thing, instead of just
turning off the ignition, he put it into reverse (Auto box.)
Resulting in most of the transmission being spread over a fair stretch
of the A5, but it did (eventually) stop, more or less in one piece. He
sold what was left of the 110 not long after.
Remember the similar "jammed wide open" throttle on the Toyota in CA a
year or three back where several people sadly died? Seems (so I'm
told) that the root cause was a "tin whisker" within the Throttle peadal
pot assembley, giving a false 100% signal to the car. I have no proof
of that, but google "tin whisker problem" and be scared about modern
electronics in road cars, or other "consumer" safety critical products..
There's a good reason, why Leaded solder is still allowed for medical
military and aerospace needs.
Cheers.
Dave B.
<> says...
> http://news.yahoo.com/utah-crash-victim-planning-wedding-proposal-dies-143141366.html
>
Presumably a Disco or RR?
Not 100% sure with the modern cars, and US spec too, but just turning
the key ONE click back, could have cut the engine WITHOUT locking the
steering, but he could have lost lights then. Or, as someone suggestd,
he could have put the thing in Neutral, again, not 100% sure if all the
variations of transmission would allow that. OK, the engine would have
been racing at full RPM, but the drive would have been cut off, and he'd
not have lost power steering, lights, or what was left of the brakes.
(Even metal to metal, would do something to slow it down.)
applying the parking brake on many LR vehicles while it is moving (and
fast) is less of a good idea.
Sad for the family, but when I learnt to drive (Wayyyyyy back!) They
used to teach you how the car worked (at a basic level) too, also
teaching you what to do in an emergency, at least, what was safe to
do...
I do know someone who put a GM V8 in a Defender 110, replacing the fuel
injection for a 4 barrel Holly carb. It went like stink, but at one
point, his cobbled together throttle linkage "flipped over center", and
jammed full open!...
Oddly, for someone who had actually built the thing, instead of just
turning off the ignition, he put it into reverse (Auto box.)
Resulting in most of the transmission being spread over a fair stretch
of the A5, but it did (eventually) stop, more or less in one piece. He
sold what was left of the 110 not long after.
Remember the similar "jammed wide open" throttle on the Toyota in CA a
year or three back where several people sadly died? Seems (so I'm
told) that the root cause was a "tin whisker" within the Throttle peadal
pot assembley, giving a false 100% signal to the car. I have no proof
of that, but google "tin whisker problem" and be scared about modern
electronics in road cars, or other "consumer" safety critical products..
There's a good reason, why Leaded solder is still allowed for medical
military and aerospace needs.
Cheers.
Dave B.
hugh
Mar 20, 2012, 3:18:32 PM3/20/12
to
In message <746fm7t8arvle7d5g...@4ax.com>, Just_Interested
<?@?.?.invalid> writes
Probably a Disco.
Must have panicked.
Had a similar situation with my Defender diesel messing about with LPG
seeding. Liquid gas got past the shut off valve.
Careering down the road flat out is not a good idea. Put it neutral and
let it blow up. Switching off the diesel fuel was ineffective at that
stage.
--
hugh
<?@?.?.invalid> writes
Must have panicked.
Had a similar situation with my Defender diesel messing about with LPG
seeding. Liquid gas got past the shut off valve.
Careering down the road flat out is not a good idea. Put it neutral and
let it blow up. Switching off the diesel fuel was ineffective at that
stage.
--
hugh
hugh
Mar 20, 2012, 3:23:34 PM3/20/12
to
In message <MPG.29d28b4d1...@aioe.org>, DaveB
<g8...@uko2.co.uk> writes
The Ford Exploder allegedly had a quite exiting feature. It seemed to
involve one half of the cruise control thinking it was off and the other
half thinking you wanted to go very fast. A documentary showed someone
following the Ford advise - put the brakes on. It was very very
difficult to stop or hold the car
--
hugh
<g8...@uko2.co.uk> writes
involve one half of the cruise control thinking it was off and the other
half thinking you wanted to go very fast. A documentary showed someone
following the Ford advise - put the brakes on. It was very very
difficult to stop or hold the car
--
hugh
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
DaveB
Mar 21, 2012, 6:07:38 AM3/21/12
to
In article <jkc0g0$5jv$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, je...@jsystems.com says...
>
> >
> > Heh, seen a few videos of diesels running on their own engine oil ..
> > not pretty! Impressive, mind, just not pretty .. ;)
> >
>
> Yep! mine did when the head gasket went, fortunately it was a manual and
> I stopped it by stalling the engine, but it was a bit of a surprise when
> turning off the ignition had no effect.
>
> Jeff
I remember a standby genset doing the same thing at a telephone exchange
when I worked for them as a tender apprentice all those years ago.
Trouble was, it had a large sump, with lots of engine oil to use. The
"Remote Off" control of course did nothing.
I was told that when a tech type went to sort it (it was thought at
first to be an electrical problem) he couldnt get near the site at first
as Plod+Fire had cordoned off the exchange as they thought the place was
on fire there was so much smoke.
Dunno how it was eventualy stopped, vague memory has something about a
fire hose (or similar) in the engine inlet!
The silly thing was, it was a nearly new genset that replaced an "old as
the hill's" two cylinder Lister job ('cos the exchange grew and was
larger then it could handle) and was only run up remotely as a routine
test.
Don't know what make of engine it was, but it was painted blue when I
saw it some days later after being swapped for a complete trailer
mounted job, that was still there on stilts some years later when I left
the PO.
As Hugh said, gas leaks and diesels can be interesting. Compression
Ignition can be a bad thing.... Especially if you have a juicebox on
the back of it... Guess a Co2 extinguisher in the inlet would stop
it, if needed, or a good cork!
Regards.
Dave B.
>
> >
> > Heh, seen a few videos of diesels running on their own engine oil ..
> > not pretty! Impressive, mind, just not pretty .. ;)
> >
>
> Yep! mine did when the head gasket went, fortunately it was a manual and
> I stopped it by stalling the engine, but it was a bit of a surprise when
> turning off the ignition had no effect.
>
> Jeff
I remember a standby genset doing the same thing at a telephone exchange
when I worked for them as a tender apprentice all those years ago.
Trouble was, it had a large sump, with lots of engine oil to use. The
"Remote Off" control of course did nothing.
I was told that when a tech type went to sort it (it was thought at
first to be an electrical problem) he couldnt get near the site at first
as Plod+Fire had cordoned off the exchange as they thought the place was
on fire there was so much smoke.
Dunno how it was eventualy stopped, vague memory has something about a
fire hose (or similar) in the engine inlet!
The silly thing was, it was a nearly new genset that replaced an "old as
the hill's" two cylinder Lister job ('cos the exchange grew and was
larger then it could handle) and was only run up remotely as a routine
test.
Don't know what make of engine it was, but it was painted blue when I
saw it some days later after being swapped for a complete trailer
mounted job, that was still there on stilts some years later when I left
the PO.
As Hugh said, gas leaks and diesels can be interesting. Compression
Ignition can be a bad thing.... Especially if you have a juicebox on
the back of it... Guess a Co2 extinguisher in the inlet would stop
it, if needed, or a good cork!
Regards.
Dave B.
DaveB
Mar 21, 2012, 6:15:06 AM3/21/12
to
In article <WjNJ0hG2...@raefell.demon.co.uk>, hugh@[127.0.0.1]
says...
tyres (tires) it's electrics, door handles or steering etc.
A friend over there with a F250 truck, had a dealer recall to fix
something. When he got it back it was only running on 7 cylinders.
That was suposed to be what they fixed it for (they said.) So, that
was a new ECU and set of injectors, that they tried to charge him for.
His wife's a commercial lawyer, so guess who lost that argument. He
still has the 250, nice truck. Wouldnt want the fuel bill over hear
though, just seen Diesel at £148.9/ltr advertised in Buckingham!...
Yikes... And it's budget day too... Hmmmmm..
Dave B.
says...
>
>
> The Ford Exploder allegedly had a quite exiting feature. It seemed to
> involve one half of the cruise control thinking it was off and the
> other half thinking you wanted to go very fast. A documentary showed
> someone following the Ford advise - put the brakes on. It was very
> very difficult to stop or hold the car
> --
> hugh
Ah, the good old Ford Exploder, always good for a laugh. If it's not
>
> The Ford Exploder allegedly had a quite exiting feature. It seemed to
> involve one half of the cruise control thinking it was off and the
> other half thinking you wanted to go very fast. A documentary showed
> someone following the Ford advise - put the brakes on. It was very
> very difficult to stop or hold the car
> --
> hugh
tyres (tires) it's electrics, door handles or steering etc.
A friend over there with a F250 truck, had a dealer recall to fix
something. When he got it back it was only running on 7 cylinders.
That was suposed to be what they fixed it for (they said.) So, that
was a new ECU and set of injectors, that they tried to charge him for.
His wife's a commercial lawyer, so guess who lost that argument. He
still has the 250, nice truck. Wouldnt want the fuel bill over hear
though, just seen Diesel at £148.9/ltr advertised in Buckingham!...
Yikes... And it's budget day too... Hmmmmm..
Dave B.
Lizzy Taylor
Mar 21, 2012, 6:32:57 AM3/21/12
to
On 21/03/2012 10:15, DaveB wrote:
> Wouldnt want the fuel bill over hear
> though, just seen Diesel at £148.9/ltr advertised in Buckingham!...
> Yikes... And it's budget day too... Hmmmmm..
Wow! That IS expensive ;-)
> Wouldnt want the fuel bill over hear
> though, just seen Diesel at £148.9/ltr advertised in Buckingham!...
> Yikes... And it's budget day too... Hmmmmm..
Lizzy
EMB
Mar 21, 2012, 7:05:58 AM3/21/12
to
On 21/03/2012 11:07 p.m., DaveB wrote:
> As Hugh said, gas leaks and diesels can be interesting. Compression
> Ignition can be a bad thing.... Especially if you have a juicebox on
> the back of it... Guess a Co2 extinguisher in the inlet would stop
> it, if needed, or a good cork!
2-stroke Detroit diseasels generally have a sliding plate in the intake
> As Hugh said, gas leaks and diesels can be interesting. Compression
> Ignition can be a bad thing.... Especially if you have a juicebox on
> the back of it... Guess a Co2 extinguisher in the inlet would stop
> it, if needed, or a good cork!
to shut off the supply of air when they (rather regularly) decide to run
on their own oil.
DieSea
Mar 21, 2012, 11:04:03 AM3/21/12
to
"Lizzy Taylor" <li...@thetaylorfamily.org.uk> wrote in message
news:4f69ae55$0$2500$da0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
I've seen WCF flogging it for over £1.50 in the back woods of the lakes recently
--
DieSea
Dave Liquorice
Mar 21, 2012, 11:21:29 AM3/21/12
to
On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:04:03 -0000, DieSea wrote:
> | > though, just seen Diesel at £148.9/ltr advertised in Buckingham!...
> | > Yikes... And it's budget day too... Hmmmmm..
> |
> | Wow! That IS expensive ;-)
>
> | > though, just seen Diesel at £148.9/ltr advertised in Buckingham!...
> | > Yikes... And it's budget day too... Hmmmmm..
> |
> | Wow! That IS expensive ;-)
>
> IS THAT ALL
>
> I've seen WCF flogging it for over £1.50 in the back woods of the lakes
> recently
Ah yes buts thats WCF, never the cheapest then factor in the
>
> I've seen WCF flogging it for over £1.50 in the back woods of the lakes
> recently
backwoods. Tesco Carlisle 144.9 an hour or so back, Asda next
junction north 143.9.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Dougal
Mar 21, 2012, 11:35:31 AM3/21/12
to
knows where it will now find itself. As for the islands even with their
latest 'rebate'.....
DieSea
Mar 21, 2012, 12:44:35 PM3/21/12
to
"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.co.uk> wrote in message
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk...
On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:04:03 -0000, DieSea wrote:
> | > though, just seen Diesel at Ł148.9/ltr advertised in Buckingham!...
> | > Yikes... And it's budget day too... Hmmmmm..
> |
> | Wow! That IS expensive ;-)
>
> IS THAT ALL
>
> I've seen WCF flogging it for over Ł1.50 in the back woods of the lakes
> |
> | Wow! That IS expensive ;-)
>
> IS THAT ALL
>
> recently
Ah yes buts thats WCF, never the cheapest then factor in the
backwoods. Tesco Carlisle 144.9 an hour or so back, Asda next
junction north 143.9.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Believe it or believe it not
Ah yes buts thats WCF, never the cheapest then factor in the
backwoods. Tesco Carlisle 144.9 an hour or so back, Asda next
junction north 143.9.
--
Cheers
Dave.
There's a West Cumberland Farmers Distributor down near Denver in Norfolk
18 months ago , WCF were 15P a litre more than Tesco's in Wisbech when that was
Ł1.10 a litre
Needless to say I only put a tenners worth in
--
DieSea
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
DaveB
Apr 16, 2012, 5:15:02 AM4/16/12
to
In article <ctkco7tk8m6oon24f...@4ax.com>,
sac...@omen.net.au says...
> you just put a stout metal plate over the inlet.
>
> Older series landies had a "strangle" valve that would do the same
> thing by a cable to the steering column. Especially for the scenario
> of the oil bath air cleaner feeding the engine....
The cable pull by the steering column on a series diesel, is the main
engine stop. It operated a lever on the side of the injection pump,
that somehow (I forget exactly) prevents injection presure being built.
Nothing to do with the posiblility of injesting air cleaner oil.
The "strangle valve" bolted onto the inlet manifold of some, was to
build vaccuum for the brake servo where fitted (on 109's) it was coupled
to the throttle pedal and "sort of" closed off the inlet, when you took
your foot of the pedal, so you got some vaccuum for the servo. Worked
suprisingly well, when adjusted right..
(There was also a non return valve, and a vaccuum storage tank too,
"Tee'd" into the hose to the servo.)
It is useless to stop the engine when the trottle return spring on the
side of the pump breaks and fall's off (happened twice to me, crossing
the England Scotland border on both ocasions. At night too!) All it
does is create a "naval quality smoke screen" behind you, while the
engine races at full chat as normal. Probably be more effective if it
was using engine oil as fuel, but I sort of doubt it, just changing the
colour of the smoke at a guess.
The "Stout metal plate on the inlet" trick, only works if the inlet is
accessable, and is able to be nicely "blanked" like that, you *Have*
such a plate available, and you can make a good seal with it, plus you
have a volunteer with no sence of personal safety. Would you want to
aproach a run-away engine and do that?
I'd doubt the fire service would have done the hose in the inlet trick
lightly (*If* that's what they did) and not after considering
alternative options. (CO2 in the inlet?) The engine was probably scrap
by then, long before it was finally killed off in any case.
Regards.
Dave B.
sac...@omen.net.au says...
>
> On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:07:38 -0000, DaveB <g8...@uko2.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >I remember a standby genset doing the same thing at a telephone exchange
> >when I worked for them as a tender apprentice all those years ago.
> >Trouble was, it had a large sump, with lots of engine oil to use. The
> >"Remote Off" control of course did nothing.
> >
> >I was told that when a tech type went to sort it (it was thought at
> >first to be an electrical problem) he couldnt get near the site at first
> >as Plod+Fire had cordoned off the exchange as they thought the place was
> >on fire there was so much smoke.
> >
> >Dunno how it was eventualy stopped, vague memory has something about a
> >fire hose (or similar) in the engine inlet!
>
> That isn't a very smart way to deal with a runaway diesel. Normally,
> On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:07:38 -0000, DaveB <g8...@uko2.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >I remember a standby genset doing the same thing at a telephone exchange
> >when I worked for them as a tender apprentice all those years ago.
> >Trouble was, it had a large sump, with lots of engine oil to use. The
> >"Remote Off" control of course did nothing.
> >
> >I was told that when a tech type went to sort it (it was thought at
> >first to be an electrical problem) he couldnt get near the site at first
> >as Plod+Fire had cordoned off the exchange as they thought the place was
> >on fire there was so much smoke.
> >
> >Dunno how it was eventualy stopped, vague memory has something about a
> >fire hose (or similar) in the engine inlet!
>
> you just put a stout metal plate over the inlet.
>
> Older series landies had a "strangle" valve that would do the same
> thing by a cable to the steering column. Especially for the scenario
> of the oil bath air cleaner feeding the engine....
The cable pull by the steering column on a series diesel, is the main
engine stop. It operated a lever on the side of the injection pump,
that somehow (I forget exactly) prevents injection presure being built.
Nothing to do with the posiblility of injesting air cleaner oil.
The "strangle valve" bolted onto the inlet manifold of some, was to
build vaccuum for the brake servo where fitted (on 109's) it was coupled
to the throttle pedal and "sort of" closed off the inlet, when you took
your foot of the pedal, so you got some vaccuum for the servo. Worked
suprisingly well, when adjusted right..
(There was also a non return valve, and a vaccuum storage tank too,
"Tee'd" into the hose to the servo.)
It is useless to stop the engine when the trottle return spring on the
side of the pump breaks and fall's off (happened twice to me, crossing
the England Scotland border on both ocasions. At night too!) All it
does is create a "naval quality smoke screen" behind you, while the
engine races at full chat as normal. Probably be more effective if it
was using engine oil as fuel, but I sort of doubt it, just changing the
colour of the smoke at a guess.
The "Stout metal plate on the inlet" trick, only works if the inlet is
accessable, and is able to be nicely "blanked" like that, you *Have*
such a plate available, and you can make a good seal with it, plus you
have a volunteer with no sence of personal safety. Would you want to
aproach a run-away engine and do that?
I'd doubt the fire service would have done the hose in the inlet trick
lightly (*If* that's what they did) and not after considering
alternative options. (CO2 in the inlet?) The engine was probably scrap
by then, long before it was finally killed off in any case.
Regards.
Dave B.
Message has been deleted
DaveB
Apr 19, 2012, 12:06:15 PM4/19/12
to
In article <h9uuo7h5ka3rvj4oh...@4ax.com>,
sac...@omen.net.au says...
> to remove the air filter and its retention stud to do so. But we kept
> the speed down by blocking the inlet with rags and hands too, whilst
> organising this.
>
> It's no big deal.
I think it depends on how tightly it is all packed into the engine bay.
I can immagine on something like a 'dozer, it's a lot easier to get to
the filter, than on many cars/van's, and "small" plant etc.
C's n B's.
Dave B.
sac...@omen.net.au says...
>
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:15:02 +0100, DaveB <g8...@uko2.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >The "Stout metal plate on the inlet" trick, only works if the inlet is
> >accessable, and is able to be nicely "blanked" like that, you *Have*
> >such a plate available, and you can make a good seal with it, plus you
> >have a volunteer with no sence of personal safety. Would you want to
> >aproach a run-away engine and do that?
>
> I did it just the other day, actually. Runaway pump on an dozer. Had
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:15:02 +0100, DaveB <g8...@uko2.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >The "Stout metal plate on the inlet" trick, only works if the inlet is
> >accessable, and is able to be nicely "blanked" like that, you *Have*
> >such a plate available, and you can make a good seal with it, plus you
> >have a volunteer with no sence of personal safety. Would you want to
> >aproach a run-away engine and do that?
>
> to remove the air filter and its retention stud to do so. But we kept
> the speed down by blocking the inlet with rags and hands too, whilst
> organising this.
>
> It's no big deal.
I think it depends on how tightly it is all packed into the engine bay.
I can immagine on something like a 'dozer, it's a lot easier to get to
the filter, than on many cars/van's, and "small" plant etc.
C's n B's.
Dave B.
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