Harmonic steering wobble
Bob Hobden
thing, the boss was with me collecting the Christmas Tree and she was not
amused, it's so violent it's frightening! As soon as I hit any bump in the
road on a slight bend at over 35 mph it does it and I have to slow down to
stop it happening and creep along. The whole vehicle starts to shake
violently if you don't react immediately. The old 50,000 mile OE one never
allowed this to happen but both the Britpart ones have, and I thought I was
making an improvement changing it. Another vote for "if it ain't broke....."
Still not got my money back from Paddocks for the first one so what chance
another claim.
I'll have to buy an OE one now or the 90s undrivable.
How are you doing with the similar situation Austin?
--
Regards
Bob Hobden
1986 90 Utility 2.5 petrol
johnty
"Bob Hobden" <Bo...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:7o951vF...@mid.individual.net...
Swivel pre load ?
Bob Hobden
"johnty" wrote ...
> "Bob Hobden" wrote in message
>> Well the second Britpart Dynamic Damper has now started doing the same
>> thing, the boss was with me collecting the Christmas Tree and she was not
>> amused, it's so violent it's frightening! As soon as I hit any bump in
>> the road on a slight bend at over 35 mph it does it and I have to slow
>> down to stop it happening and creep along. The whole vehicle starts to
>> shake violently if you don't react immediately. The old 50,000 mile OE
>> one never allowed this to happen but both the Britpart ones have, and I
>> thought I was making an improvement changing it. Another vote for "if it
>> ain't broke....."
>> Still not got my money back from Paddocks for the first one so what
>> chance another claim.
>>
>> I'll have to buy an OE one now or the 90s undrivable.
>>
>> How are you doing with the similar situation Austin?
>>
> Swivel pre load ?
Yes, we have been down this road and I have yet to check it but why should
changing the damper cause this problem if it's the pre load? It didn't
happen with the old damper.
Oily
"Bob Hobden" wrote..........
>
> "johnty" wrote ...
> > Swivel pre load ?
> Yes, we have been down this road and I have yet to check it but why should
> changing the damper cause this problem if it's the pre load? It didn't
> happen with the old damper.
>
Put another way, why does it need a steering damper?. If it was set up or
designed right then it shouldn't need a steering damper. It's near
impossible though to balance the wheels properly with most 4x4 tyres and a
vehicle that gets knocked about off road even if the pre-load etc. is ok. I
had the same problem when one end of the damper broke off, practically
undriveable, but I couldn't find any other obvious fault. It's still ok
with a new OE damper.
Martin
johnty
"Oily" <martin...@nospambtconnect.com> wrote in message
news:ae6dndEcnsSGHYLW...@bt.com...
My '69 88" doesn't have a steering damper and ive never had any issues with
wobble.....ex-friends disco had problems with wobble (despite new damper),
checked and adjusted swivel pre load and all was fine.
Have removed damper from my D2 and dont have any issues with that either,
steering dampers in my mind shouldnt be fitted in an attempt to cure a fault
(as far as i know they are more for trying to stop the wheel being whiped
out of your hands when say hitting a bit of rough)
As to why its doing it now with the new damper.......did you compare the two
for correct function.....are the bushes softer on the new one....did you
prime it .......did you check for correct function at the mid point of
travel (where the damper would usually sit )
Nige
"johnty" <kaptink...@invalidgmail.com> wrote in message
news:00257cc5$0$22967$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
> Have removed damper from my D2 and dont have any issues with that
> either, steering dampers in my mind shouldnt be fitted in an attempt
> to cure a fault (as far as i know they are more for trying to stop the
> wheel being whiped out of your hands when say hitting a bit of rough)
ffs, you took off an OE bit of kit?
Lets hope you don't wipe out yours or any other cunts family then eh?
Have you any idea of what could happen to you if you are involved in
*any* kind of crash?
FFS.
Bob Hobden
"johnty" wrote ...
> "Oily" wrote
>> "Bob Hobden" wrote..........
>>> "johnty" wrote ...
>>
>>> > Swivel pre load ?
>>
>>> Yes, we have been down this road and I have yet to check it but why
>>> should
>>> changing the damper cause this problem if it's the pre load? It didn't
>>> happen with the old damper.
>>>
>>
>> Put another way, why does it need a steering damper?. If it was set up
>> or
>> designed right then it shouldn't need a steering damper. It's near
>> impossible though to balance the wheels properly with most 4x4 tyres and
>> a
>> vehicle that gets knocked about off road even if the pre-load etc. is ok.
>> I
>> had the same problem when one end of the damper broke off, practically
>> undriveable, but I couldn't find any other obvious fault. It's still ok
>> with a new OE damper.
>>
> My '69 88" doesn't have a steering damper and ive never had any issues
> with wobble.....ex-friends disco had problems with wobble (despite new
> damper), checked and adjusted swivel pre load and all was fine.
>
> Have removed damper from my D2 and dont have any issues with that either,
> steering dampers in my mind shouldnt be fitted in an attempt to cure a
> fault (as far as i know they are more for trying to stop the wheel being
> whiped out of your hands when say hitting a bit of rough)
>
> As to why its doing it now with the new damper.......did you compare the
> two for correct function.....are the bushes softer on the new one....did
> you prime it .......did you check for correct function at the mid point of
> travel (where the damper would usually sit )
>
My 1974 SWB Series 111 didn't have a damper and that was always OK,
excellent steering, however this 1986 90 has had a damper (and power
steering) from new and obviously needs it.
I will do the pre-load when I get time but really can't see how that could
be the problem when it didn't happen with the old OE damper I took off or
with the present one at first. Just came on suddenly and dramatically whilst
driving yesterday, like something broke/failed.
I understood the pre-load problem creeps up on you, it doesn't happen
suddenly.
If a vehicle is fitted with a damper by it's manufacturer then it's for a
reason, they don't waste money. My understanding is if you take one off you
need to inform your insurance Co. because you have modified the vehicle. I
do hope you don't have what I experienced yesterday, perhaps at a higher
speed, and have a nasty accident as a result.
John Williamson
Errr...
I thought the bit that goes through the chassis on a series vehicle had
a friction damping system built in? Two cones keyed to the shaft mating
with cups attached to the outer tube with a rather large spring trying
to force them apart. I know you've got to be careful when you strip it
down, as bits tend to embed theselves in you, the workshop wall or
ceiling, depending on which way it's pointing.
--
Tciao for Now!
John.
johnty
"John Williamson" <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:7oa47sF...@mid.individual.net...
OK perhaps i didnt make my point clear enough.........
I removed steering damper from D2 because i fitted heavy duty track
rods....these dont even have the fittings for a damper (due to their weight
its unnecessary so im lead to believe and ive certainly not had any sort of
problem with it, and yes its listed with my insurance company.
As to your sudden problem (perhaps its somehow lost fluid/got an air
bubble/fallen off)what i was trying to get across was that loss of damper by
whatever means shouldn't cause such a profound problem if everything else is
in good order, which is why i mentioned the ex-friend with a very similar
problem (and the swivel adjustment which cured it for him). The preload
problem would creep up on you by the fact that its something gradually
wearing that creates it (which could be masked by your oe damper(did you
have the problem before you changed dampers?))
As to the steering relay acting as a damper, since friction is involved it
must do to some effect, however it can be that perfect because steering
dampers were fitted to some series vehicles
John Williamson
> OK perhaps i didnt make my point clear enough.........
>
> I removed steering damper from D2 because i fitted heavy duty track
> rods....these dont even have the fittings for a damper (due to their weight
> its unnecessary so im lead to believe and ive certainly not had any sort of
> problem with it, and yes its listed with my insurance company.
>
contributory cause to whatever they're booking you for.
> As to your sudden problem (perhaps its somehow lost fluid/got an air
> bubble/fallen off)what i was trying to get across was that loss of damper by
> whatever means shouldn't cause such a profound problem if everything else is
> in good order, which is why i mentioned the ex-friend with a very similar
> problem (and the swivel adjustment which cured it for him). The preload
> problem would creep up on you by the fact that its something gradually
> wearing that creates it (which could be masked by your oe damper(did you
> have the problem before you changed dampers?))
>
> As to the steering relay acting as a damper, since friction is involved it
> must do to some effect, however it can be that perfect because steering
> dampers were fitted to some series vehicles
>
I'm not the OP, and I have no problems with my steering. I was just
trying to point out that Series vehicles *do* have a steering damper of
sorts fitted, it is just part of another component. As for external
steering dampers on Series vehicles, I sit to be corrected, but aren't
they needed only on vehicles with power steering?
johnty
My 109 has a steering damper fitted (its not a retrofit cause the chassis
has the bracket as part of it so does the drag link....i so wish it had
power steering on it)
Vosa dont seem to have a problem with it.....we get a stop and check quite
often round here and my D2 has been inspected by them twice so far this year
local plod must think all landrovers are running on red (i suppose its the
price of living so close to one of their favorite spots).
I know your not the OP i was just trying to reply to everything at
once......
I think i'll stop trying to help and go back to just lurking
mark
wrote:
The steering relay is not meant to be a damper.The idea of the tapered
bushes and spring is to make it self adjusting.Years ago I had an S111
brand new without power steering but it had a steering damper.
John Williamson
> I think i'll stop trying to help and go back to just lurking
>
Apparently, I read the book wrong, too, when I did, many years ago.
John Williamson
> The steering relay is not meant to be a damper.The idea of the tapered
> bushes and spring is to make it self adjusting.Years ago I had an S111
> brand new without power steering but it had a steering damper.
I sit profoundly corrected.
I'll just go and lurk behind these tyres, then....
Paul - xxx
On my Disco we've never had a really bad problem, but when we did get a
slight wobble replacing the rear A-Frame bushes cured it completely!
I reckon that all the links and bushes on Landrovers are a contributory
factor, it only needs one to fail big style and the rest soon go ... so
I'd suggest checking _all_ bushes, front and rear. There's a distinct
possibility that although it's a steering wobble, there may be nothing,
directly, wrong with the steering!! ;)
Also worth checking tyres are pumped equally and wheel bearings are in
good fettle, along with the obvious as has been said earlier in the
thread, like the swivel pre-load etc.
--
Paul - xxx
'96/'97 Landrover Discovery 300 Tdi
Dyna Tech Cro-Mo comp
Bob Hobden
"Paul - wrote
I have no doubt you are correct, a slow deterioration in all bushes/bearings
cannot help my situation, it is a 1986 vehicle after all, even if it's only
done just over 50K miles. Certainly the A frame is something I have to get
round to.
Dave Baxter
johnwil...@btinternet.com says...
No sadly, my old 109 needed one, even though the swivel pre-load was OK,
bearigs too etc and the steering relay. Not a "problem" per se', but it
was a whole lot nicer to drive with the damper, than without.
Dave B.
Bob Hobden
"Bob Hobden" <Bo...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:7o951vF...@mid.individual.net...
Paddocks have told me today that they are refunding the cost of the first
damper but as this is the first one they have found faulty they have
suggested....
"The customer who had a similar problem was advised to check his swivel
pins and all his bushes, as this could cause problems if they are worn. He
found a worn bush which he replaced and this cured the problem. This may
not be the same with your vehicle but we would ask if you could double check
them"
Dougal
I think that Paddock have been very good to you! A damper that is dead
as you take it out of the box is, I would have thought, almost impossible.
I'm going to make myself unpopular by suggesting that all the reported
'cures' brought about by changing the damper are not cures at all but
rather a decent damper concealing a fault or multiple faults elsewhere.
An earlier poster was correct in stating that a steering system in good
condition does not need a damper. The fact that Land Rover have fitted
one as original equipment for reasons other than to produce a working
steering system doesn't alter that.
If you want to see the difference between a system that needs a damper
and one that doesn't try the following:
a) Jack up the vehicle so that both front wheels are off the ground.
Operate the steering by turning the steering wheel or grabbing hold of a
road wheel and moving it to replicate a steering movement. Note that
there is no 'springness' in the system, nothing oscillates if you give
it a sharp rotational movement and let go. This is not a sprung system
which needs a damper to control it. Do this with the steering damper
connected and disconnected. All that you may find is that there will be
more resistance to quick movements with the damper connected. Land Rover
provided the damper for some protection from impacts (things that snatch
the steering wheel from your grip) either in off-road use or of more
relevance to the condition of today's roads when dropping into potholes.
The presence of the damper can improve the steering feel as has been
mentioned as it damps out external shocks.
b) Bounce the bodywork up and down at one end of the vehicle or the
other with and without the suspension dampers connected on the axle in
question. It should be obvious that the damper is an essential part of
the suspension system. The dampers control the oscillation of the sprung
system. (Don't try to drive with the dampers disconnected!)
Things, of course, aren't always that simple. There is a connection
between a steering component (the damper) and the front suspension - but
in its lateral motion rather than the vertical motion. The steering
damper can help to control that lateral motion (i.e. that of the front
axle relative to the chassis) under some conditions. It is this
'by-product' that enables some front suspension faults to be concealed
by a working steering damper.
I've gone on too long.
Bob, the steering damper isn't your problem. It's probably:
a) swivel pin bearings or pins (and not just the pre-load as is usually
mentioned)
b) front suspension bushes (panhard rod and axle to radius arm) and
their hardware and bracketry.
c) front dampers (shockers)
... or any combination of these.
I'd suggest that you start by getting someone to rock the front wheels
vertically whilst you view from the back. There should be no motion
between the swivel ball and the housing. Do this with the wheel loaded
and on the ground (which unloads the upper bearing) and hanging free
from a raised axle (which unloads the lower bearing). Also try levering
the wheel upwards away from the ground in the latter condition. I don't
think that you will like what you see! My money's on the lower swivel
bearing being shot. This would fit your description because if the lower
bearing becomes unloaded by going over a bump (compounded possibly by a
duff shocker) location at the lower swivel pin is lost and the wheel is
'flopping about' in all directions, wheel tracking is lost etc. - a big
shimmy!
If you can give that area a clean bill of health then move on to the
front suspension bushes. As I've mentioned here before the condition of
the bracketry is frequently ignored. If the internal tube of the bushes
(only about 3mm wide) cannot seat fully on the bracket because the
bracket holes are elongated and/or the bolts worn you'll never get the
bushes to work properly. Loose bolts or bolts that don't stay tight are
a symptom of this.
Bob Hobden
"Dougal" wrote
> Bob Hobden wrote:
>> "Bob Hobden" wrote in message
Thanks for that Dougal, a plan of attack is always useful. :-)
Austin Shackles
enlightened us thusly:
The heater's f*cked in the Rangie and I'm buggered if I'm driving it in the
current weather without a heater.
Mine still wobbles a tad, but it's bearable - it was the damper that made
the most obvious difference to mine - and I didn't even fit a new one, just
a better one. Maybe the 90 is worse because of the shorter wheelbase and
different dynamics?
handy info about the britprat dampers, though: I was wondering about some of
theird for the disco II, which needs all 4 changing. I won't bother now,
either stick with OEM or there are some others to think about.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms...
------------------------------------------------\
>> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them.
a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too!
Austin Shackles
<martin...@nospambtconnect.com> enlightened us thusly:
I'm guessing it needs a damper because somewhere along the line they screwed
up the design of the front suspension.
However, unlike the series motors, the damper is not optional on the
coilers, every one I've had suffers with this and it often seems to be the
damper.
The one I took off the Rangie was an Allmakes one, wasn't dead, but
obviosuly didn't damp enough.
other things which had a lesser effect were also worn in the steering, and
when I first had it, better front tyres made a differnce.
Austin Shackles
<nigel.in...@btinternet.com> enlightened us thusly:
I wouldn't remove the damper from any of the coil-spring ones. The Series
always was optional, AFAIK, and in fact not really needed. Come to think of
it, I reckon the on the Rangie is the one I took off the SIII (where it did
nothing useful and restricted the already-rubbish turning circle), and yes
it is the same part! (dunno about the DII one)
The DII does seem to have much better-damped steering and of course doesn't
have the same front axle. But still, I'd not fancy running it without the
damper - on the ones I've had, they're all fine most of the time until you
hit the conditions that make the damper non-optional.
It's also true that all the rest of the front end including swivel preload
needs to be right.
Austin Shackles
<kaptink...@invalidgmail.com> enlightened us thusly:
>
>My 109 has a steering damper fitted (its not a retrofit cause the chassis
>has the bracket as part of it so does the drag link....i so wish it had
>power steering on it)
the series motors, AFAIK were fitted to take a damper as an optional extra,
I believe it's about controlling the tendency to remove your thumbs
off-road. The relay does indeed have some damping effect as well, but the
coil-spring ones don't have that of course.
Notwithstanding the heavy duty rods, I'd still want the damper fitted. I
thought the damper fitting on the DII rod was clamped onto the rod, but I
may be wrong.
Dougal
> On or around Wed, 9 Dec 2009 10:53:09 -0000, "Oily"
> <martin...@nospambtconnect.com> enlightened us thusly:
>
>> "Bob Hobden" wrote..........
>>> "johnty" wrote ...
>>>> Swivel pre load ?
>>> Yes, we have been down this road and I have yet to check it but why should
>>> changing the damper cause this problem if it's the pre load? It didn't
>>> happen with the old damper.
>>>
>> designed right then it shouldn't need a steering damper. It's near
>> impossible though to balance the wheels properly with most 4x4 tyres and a
>> vehicle that gets knocked about off road even if the pre-load etc. is ok. I
>> had the same problem when one end of the damper broke off, practically
>> undriveable, but I couldn't find any other obvious fault. It's still ok
>> with a new OE damper.
>
> I'm guessing it needs a damper because somewhere along the line they screwed
> up the design of the front suspension.
>
> However, unlike the series motors, the damper is not optional on the
> coilers, every one I've had suffers with this and it often seems to be the
> damper.
The relay unit on the series models provided some damping and that
device isn't fitted on the coilers - I guess that's why the external
unit was then fitted as standard.
> The one I took off the Rangie was an Allmakes one, wasn't dead, but
> obviously didn't damp enough.
>
> other things which had a lesser effect were also worn in the steering, and
> when I first had it, better front tyres made a difference.
Austin Shackles
<Dou...@Hiskennel.free-online.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
>I think that Paddock have been very good to you! A damper that is dead
>as you take it out of the box is, I would have thought, almost impossible.
sadly not, I had one of a set of 4 suspension dampers that was way softer
than the others.
The steering damper doesn't have to be dead, just softer than it should be.
If there's another fault on mine, then both I and the MOT have, as yet,
failed to find it.
I've a theory that, LR being what they are, some of the coiler chassis are
more prone to this than others.
Dougal
> On or around Fri, 11 Dec 2009 22:19:25 +0000, Dougal
> <Dou...@Hiskennel.free-online.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
>
>> I think that Paddock have been very good to you! A damper that is dead
>> as you take it out of the box is, I would have thought, almost impossible.
>
> than the others.
>
> The steering damper doesn't have to be dead, just softer than it should be.
> If there's another fault on mine, then both I and the MOT have, as yet,
> failed to find it.
>
> I've a theory that, LR being what they are, some of the coiler chassis are
> more prone to this than others.
Certainly larger, heavier wheels/tyres are bound to be more prone to
have 'issues'. On a SWB Series with 7.50 XYs I needed the damper to deal
with potholes which were not a serious problem with 6.50 crossplies.
Bob Hobden
"Austin Shackles" wrote
>"Bob Hobden" enlightened us thusly:
I feel the same about sitting/lying on the ground trying to sort out the
suspension, looking for faults that the recent MOT didn't pick up on when
it's near freezing. Unfortunately I have no garage to work on the 90 in.
Went out in it today, didn't have much choice having to cross a muddy field,
kept below 35mph on the road and no problems at all but it's got to be fixed
permanently soon. I've actually got a bag full of Polybushes that came with
the vehicle, and whilst I know a lot of owners don't like them I have not
got the tools/press to fit the OEM ones, so if I find it's the bushes they
will have to do.
At least I proved that two brand new Britpart dynamic steering dampers are
neither as effective as a 50,000 mile OEM one, whether there is another
problem or not.
So no matter what I find with the suspension I will have to get an OEM
damper anyway to feel safe.