Just so much more selling power to the powerless and hope to the hopeless (or the illusion of power to the powerless and a parcel of false hopes to the hopeless):
Schuller Hands His Son Keys to Crystal Cathedral By William Lobdell and Dan Weikel Times Staff Writers
January 2, 2006
The Rev. Robert H. Schuller handed over the leadership of the Crystal Cathedral to his only son on Sunday, ending a half-century as pastor of a church he started in a drive-in movie theater in Orange County and built into a worldwide ministry.
Schuller, 79, waited until the close of his New Year's Day sermon to announce that Robert A. Schuller would succeed him as senior pastor Jan. 22. He will also take over the popular "Hour of Power," a religious program broadcast around the world.
"Bob needs your prayers," Schuller said, fighting back tears, his strong voice wavering with emotion. "But it is up to the congregation, not this guy or that guy - to make it happen."
The younger Schuller asked the congregation for help. "I need your prayers. I covet your prayers. From the time I was born, God has equipped me and allowed me to take on this incredible challenge. I am honored and humbled."
Like the pastor sons of evangelists Billy Graham and Oral Roberts, Robert A. Schuller, 51, follows a well-known figure of 20th century American Protestantism. But unlike televangelists such as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, the elder Schuller stayed out of politics.
He set the tone for his upbeat ministry by first preaching from the roof of a drive-in theater snack bar in 1955. Setting aside the fire-and-brimstone sermons then common, Schuller developed a relentlessly optimistic form of Christianity that linked the power of positive thinking and self-esteem with uplifting Gospel messages. The mix was appealing enough to pack his church and attract millions of TV viewers around the world.
His ministry became a model for the thousands of nondenominational congregations - including some of the nation's largest churches - that have popped up in recent decades to serve believers uncomfortable with the formality of old-line faiths.
"Schuller is to be credited as one of the inventors of the megachurch," said Donald E. Miller, director for USC's Center for Religion and Civic Culture. "I suppose he is also someone who caused critics to raise questions whether this was just about marketing or about the truth of religion."
A devotee of the Rev. Norman Vincent Peale, the power-of-positive-thinking pioneer, Schuller has written more than 30 books, including five New York Times bestsellers. His writing is filled with aphorisms such as "inch by inch, it's a cinch," "turn your scars into stars" and "I will bloom where I am planted today!"
Schuller's message of optimism found favor among world leaders and celebrities, including every U.S. president from Richard Nixon to George W. Bush, industrialist Armand Hammer, Mother Teresa, deposed Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos and Coretta Scott King.
"Robert Schuller has had a major religious impact, not only in the United States, but in many parts of the world through his writings and television broadcasts," the Rev. Billy Graham said in a statement. The TV programs offered some of the first Christian broadcasting in the Soviet Union.
"Rev. Robert H. Schuller's great legacy will be his creative use of television to bring the message of Jesus Christ to the world," said Cardinal Roger M. Mahony of Los Angeles. "He was always searching for new ways to bring the Gospel message to as many people as possible."
The elder Schuller built the sprawling church complex in Garden Grove, including a glass-walled cathedral with 10,000 panes of glass, so architecturally rich that he received a lifetime achievement award from the American Institute of Architects.
Schuller's presence will still be felt throughout the ministry with its $72-million budget, 500 employees and 3,500 volunteers, according to church figures. Crystal Cathedral, part of the Reformed Church in America, has about 10,000 members; its broadcasts reach millions.
Freed from managing daily operations, Schuller plans to continue to preach at the church and has formulated a 20-year plan he hopes will culminate with him preaching at the Crystal Cathedral when he is 100. His title will be founding pastor.
"I am not retiring," Schuller insisted in an interview Friday.
He plans to raise an endowment of about $100 million to cover the $4 million in annual maintenance needed for the church buildings and grounds. Schuller said this would give the Crystal Cathedral the financial footing to continue for "a thousand years."
When the younger Schuller is installed as senior pastor, it will mark the culmination of a succession plan formalized in 1996.
After his father made the announcement Sunday, the younger Schuller joined him at the altar, and they embraced before an audience of 2,157 people who attended the first of two morning services. An additional 2,200 attended the second service. The church holds 3,000.
Crystal Cathedral members said afterward that while the senior Schuller drew them to the church, his son had grown to be a more confident and powerful preacher. They said they expected the church's upbeat tone to change little.
"I think young Robert has come a long way," said Virginia O. Hamilton, 79, of Irvine who has been attending the church for 36 years.
Floyd and Rae Baker, a retired Anaheim couple, agreed. But, his father "will be a hard act to follow," Floyd Baker said.
Some churchgoers said the younger Schuller faced a challenge in taking over a congregation drawn by his father's charisma and eloquence. "His dad, when he talks, he talks straight to your heart," said Celia Concepcion, 45, a cosmetics company owner from Carson.
The new senior pastor is a tall, handsome man with short brown hair and a rugged jaw. He has four children and lives in Laguna Beach with his second wife, Donna. He tries to lift weights daily and is a 20-handicap golfer in the sport he took up eight years ago, after giving up his hobby as a marlin fisherman.
His messages are delivered in a stiffer style than his father, but show the same optimism that runs through the family.
The elder Schuller's path to the Crystal Cathedral was forged on his own will and vision. A native of Iowa, he started preaching in Orange County in the mid-1950s, drawn to California because of its beaches, mountains, deserts and mild weather. He brought with him his wife, Arvella, to whom he has been married 55 years.
In the 1960s, Schuller moved his growing flock to a $5-million complex he called the Garden Grove Community Church. Schuller walked door to door, asking residents what they wanted in a church. His marketing survey would be emulated by churches nationwide.
Through the years, the church campus expanded to 40 acres and includes the work of some of the world's foremost architects. Philip Johnson designed the Crystal Cathedral and Richard Neutra the 14-story Tower of Hope, which houses a round-the-clock telephone counseling service, and is topped by a 90-foot illuminated cross.
Richard Meier designed the $40-million International Center for Possibility Thinking, a building that took 17 years to complete, in part, because of a neighbor who demanded - and got - $1 million for a tract house that stood in the minister's way.
Schuller said the design of the church was intended to reflect his philosophy: A person's deepest need is a spiritual hunger for glory.
Unlike some televangelists and major church leaders, the elder Schuller has remained untouched by major scandal, but not free of controversy. In 1997, he avoided a trial on assault charges when he apologized for "aggressively" grabbing a flight attendant by the shoulders in a dispute over service in the first class cabin.
Critics usually focus on Schuller's theology, believing that his optimistic messages and self-help philosophy act to water down Christianity.
"The idea that people could come to church in their pajamas and sit in their cars, that raised the question: What did this have to do with the cross of Jesus?" said USC's Miller. "Is this religion on the light side?"
A. Larry Ross, president of a Dallas-based public relations firm whose clients include Billy Graham and other famous Christian pastors, said Schuller's nonjudgmental approach brought many questioning people to accept the Gospel.
"Dr. Schuller has been one of God's great servants in the past generation," Ross said. "There is no telling how many people started as tire-kickers and are now believing Christians due to their exposure to Schuller's Gospel message."
7:30am -- Read LA Times. Read all stories looking for a slant to portray Landmark in a bad light. 8:00am -- Haha! There is an article on how an accountant stole from the company and another article how a person thinks the world is ending. Run over to computer and post!!! 8:30am -- Salivating and waiting for Tex to respond. 9:00am -- Still salivating and waiting for Tex to respond. 9:30am -- Still salivating. 10:00am -- Bingo! Tex responds. I am going to let him have it and make myself feel really good! Wowser. What an opening he let me have.
> 7:30am -- Read LA Times. Read all stories looking for a slant to > portray Landmark in a bad light. > 8:00am -- Haha! There is an article on how an accountant stole from > the company and another article how a person thinks the world is > ending. Run over to computer and post!!! > 8:30am -- Salivating and waiting for Tex to respond. > 9:00am -- Still salivating and waiting for Tex to respond. > 9:30am -- Still salivating. > 10:00am -- Bingo! Tex responds. I am going to let him have it and > make myself feel really good! Wowser. What an opening he let me have.
LOL Happy New Year Siam! Hey, when do I ever leave Ellen an opening???? At least one that can't be sealed shut once the bait has been taken? {:~D
Newsgroups: alt.fan.landmark From: "Tex" <ritter_...@yahoo.com> - Find messages by this author Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:26:48 -0500 Local: Mon, Jan 2 2006 9:26 am Subject: Re: International Center for Possibility Thinking Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
> Beat my prediction by 5 minutes. > 7:30am -- Read LA Times. Read all stories looking for a slant to > portray Landmark in a bad light. > 8:00am -- Haha! There is an article on how an accountant stole from > the company and another article how a person thinks the world is > ending. Run over to computer and post!!! > 8:30am -- Salivating and waiting for Tex to respond. > 9:00am -- Still salivating and waiting for Tex to respond. > 9:30am -- Still salivating. > 10:00am -- Bingo! Tex responds. I am going to let him have it and > make myself feel really good! Wowser. What an opening he let me have.
<<LOL Happy New Year Siam! Hey, when do I ever leave Ellen an opening???? At least one that can't be sealed shut once the bait has been taken? {:~D >>
>> 7:30am -- Read LA Times. Read all stories looking for a slant to >> portray Landmark in a bad light. >> 8:00am -- Haha! There is an article on how an accountant stole from >> the company and another article how a person thinks the world is >> ending. Run over to computer and post!!! >> 8:30am -- Salivating and waiting for Tex to respond. >> 9:00am -- Still salivating and waiting for Tex to respond. >> 9:30am -- Still salivating. >> 10:00am -- Bingo! Tex responds. I am going to let him have it and >> make myself feel really good! Wowser. What an opening he let me have.
> <<LOL > Happy New Year Siam! > Hey, when do I ever leave Ellen an opening???? > At least one that can't be sealed shut once the bait has been taken? > {:~D >>
> And I was 34 minutes off on your response!
> Happy New Year's to you as well.
I slept in! {:~D But you are psychic. {:~D On a different topic, it appears Rick has figured out the appropriate way to engage in our little game. Took him a while though!
Since even Schuller is a scam to you can you please let us know who you would replace him with. Who are the people that you admire or have done things worthy of mention.
I have seen him on the odd occasion here on Aust .TV , and I certainly was impressed by his charm and ability to communicate.
Everything everyone says ACCORDING TO YOU seems to be a created Illusion of false hopes.?????
SO who in your mind is telling the truth ???? Rick Ross ????????
> Just so much more selling power to the powerless and hope to the > hopeless (or the illusion of power to the powerless and a parcel of > false hopes to the hopeless):
> Schuller Hands His Son Keys to Crystal Cathedral > By William Lobdell and Dan Weikel > Times Staff Writers
> January 2, 2006
> The Rev. Robert H. Schuller handed over the leadership of the Crystal > Cathedral to his only son on Sunday, ending a half-century as pastor of > a church he started in a drive-in movie theater in Orange County and > built into a worldwide ministry.
> Schuller, 79, waited until the close of his New Year's Day sermon to > announce that Robert A. Schuller would succeed him as senior pastor > Jan. 22. He will also take over the popular "Hour of Power," a > religious program broadcast around the world.
> "Bob needs your prayers," Schuller said, fighting back tears, his > strong voice wavering with emotion. "But it is up to the congregation, > not this guy or that guy - to make it happen."
> The younger Schuller asked the congregation for help. "I need your > prayers. I covet your prayers. From the time I was born, God has > equipped me and allowed me to take on this incredible challenge. I am > honored and humbled."
> Like the pastor sons of evangelists Billy Graham and Oral Roberts, > Robert A. Schuller, 51, follows a well-known figure of 20th century > American Protestantism. But unlike televangelists such as Jerry Falwell > and Pat Robertson, the elder Schuller stayed out of politics.
> He set the tone for his upbeat ministry by first preaching from the > roof of a drive-in theater snack bar in 1955. Setting aside the > fire-and-brimstone sermons then common, Schuller developed a > relentlessly optimistic form of Christianity that linked the power of > positive thinking and self-esteem with uplifting Gospel messages. The > mix was appealing enough to pack his church and attract millions of TV > viewers around the world.
> His ministry became a model for the thousands of nondenominational > congregations - including some of the nation's largest churches - > that have popped up in recent decades to serve believers uncomfortable > with the formality of old-line faiths.
> "Schuller is to be credited as one of the inventors of the megachurch," > said Donald E. Miller, director for USC's Center for Religion and Civic > Culture. "I suppose he is also someone who caused critics to raise > questions whether this was just about marketing or about the truth of > religion."
> A devotee of the Rev. Norman Vincent Peale, the > power-of-positive-thinking pioneer, Schuller has written more than 30 > books, including five New York Times bestsellers. His writing is filled > with aphorisms such as "inch by inch, it's a cinch," "turn your scars > into stars" and "I will bloom where I am planted today!"
> Schuller's message of optimism found favor among world leaders and > celebrities, including every U.S. president from Richard Nixon to > George W. Bush, industrialist Armand Hammer, Mother Teresa, deposed > Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos and Coretta Scott King.
> "Robert Schuller has had a major religious impact, not only in the > United States, but in many parts of the world through his writings and > television broadcasts," the Rev. Billy Graham said in a statement. The > TV programs offered some of the first Christian broadcasting in the > Soviet Union.
> "Rev. Robert H. Schuller's great legacy will be his creative use of > television to bring the message of Jesus Christ to the world," said > Cardinal Roger M. Mahony of Los Angeles. "He was always searching for > new ways to bring the Gospel message to as many people as possible."
> The elder Schuller built the sprawling church complex in Garden Grove, > including a glass-walled cathedral with 10,000 panes of glass, so > architecturally rich that he received a lifetime achievement award from > the American Institute of Architects.
> Schuller's presence will still be felt throughout the ministry with its > $72-million budget, 500 employees and 3,500 volunteers, according to > church figures. Crystal Cathedral, part of the Reformed Church in > America, has about 10,000 members; its broadcasts reach millions.
> Freed from managing daily operations, Schuller plans to continue to > preach at the church and has formulated a 20-year plan he hopes will > culminate with him preaching at the Crystal Cathedral when he is 100. > His title will be founding pastor.
> "I am not retiring," Schuller insisted in an interview Friday.
> He plans to raise an endowment of about $100 million to cover the $4 > million in annual maintenance needed for the church buildings and > grounds. Schuller said this would give the Crystal Cathedral the > financial footing to continue for "a thousand years."
> When the younger Schuller is installed as senior pastor, it will mark > the culmination of a succession plan formalized in 1996.
> After his father made the announcement Sunday, the younger Schuller > joined him at the altar, and they embraced before an audience of 2,157 > people who attended the first of two morning services. An additional > 2,200 attended the second service. The church holds 3,000.
> Crystal Cathedral members said afterward that while the senior Schuller > drew them to the church, his son had grown to be a more confident and > powerful preacher. They said they expected the church's upbeat tone to > change little.
> "I think young Robert has come a long way," said Virginia O. Hamilton, > 79, of Irvine who has been attending the church for 36 years.
> Floyd and Rae Baker, a retired Anaheim couple, agreed. But, his father > "will be a hard act to follow," Floyd Baker said.
> Some churchgoers said the younger Schuller faced a challenge in taking > over a congregation drawn by his father's charisma and eloquence. "His > dad, when he talks, he talks straight to your heart," said Celia > Concepcion, 45, a cosmetics company owner from Carson.
> The new senior pastor is a tall, handsome man with short brown hair and > a rugged jaw. He has four children and lives in Laguna Beach with his > second wife, Donna. He tries to lift weights daily and is a 20-handicap > golfer in the sport he took up eight years ago, after giving up his > hobby as a marlin fisherman.
> His messages are delivered in a stiffer style than his father, but show > the same optimism that runs through the family.
> The elder Schuller's path to the Crystal Cathedral was forged on his > own will and vision. A native of Iowa, he started preaching in Orange > County in the mid-1950s, drawn to California because of its beaches, > mountains, deserts and mild weather. He brought with him his wife, > Arvella, to whom he has been married 55 years.
> In the 1960s, Schuller moved his growing flock to a $5-million complex > he called the Garden Grove Community Church. Schuller walked door to > door, asking residents what they wanted in a church. His marketing > survey would be emulated by churches nationwide.
> Through the years, the church campus expanded to 40 acres and includes > the work of some of the world's foremost architects. Philip Johnson > designed the Crystal Cathedral and Richard Neutra the 14-story Tower of > Hope, which houses a round-the-clock telephone counseling service, and > is topped by a 90-foot illuminated cross.
> Richard Meier designed the $40-million International Center for > Possibility Thinking, a building that took 17 years to complete, in > part, because of a neighbor who demanded - and got - $1 million for > a tract house that stood in the minister's way.
> Schuller said the design of the church was intended to reflect his > philosophy: A person's deepest need is a spiritual hunger for glory.
> Unlike some televangelists and major church leaders, the elder Schuller > has remained untouched by major scandal, but not free of controversy. > In 1997, he avoided a trial on assault charges when he apologized for > "aggressively" grabbing a flight attendant by the shoulders in a > dispute over service in the first class cabin.
> Critics usually focus on Schuller's theology, believing that his > optimistic messages and self-help philosophy act to water down > Christianity.
> "The idea that people could come to church in their pajamas and sit in > their cars, that raised the question: What did this have to do with the > cross of Jesus?" said USC's Miller. "Is this religion on the light > side?"
> A. Larry Ross, president of a Dallas-based public relations firm whose > clients include Billy Graham and other famous Christian pastors, said > Schuller's nonjudgmental approach brought many questioning people to > accept the Gospel.
> "Dr. Schuller has been one of God's great servants in the past > generation," Ross said. "There is no telling how many people started as > tire-kickers and are now believing Christians due to their exposure to > Schuller's Gospel message."
> Since even Schuller is a scam to you can you please let us know who you > would replace him with. Who are the people that you admire or have done > things worthy of mention.
> I have seen him on the odd occasion here on Aust .TV , and I certainly was > impressed by his charm and ability to communicate.
> Everything everyone says ACCORDING TO YOU seems to be a created Illusion > of false hopes.?????
> SO who in your mind is telling the truth ???? Rick Ross ????????
> <deprogra...@MailandNews.com> wrote in message > news:1136217300.399830.35310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > > Just so much more selling power to the powerless and hope to the > > hopeless (or the illusion of power to the powerless and a parcel of > > false hopes to the hopeless):
> > (I wonder if he pays Weenie any royalties.....)
> > Schuller Hands His Son Keys to Crystal Cathedral > > By William Lobdell and Dan Weikel > > Times Staff Writers
> > January 2, 2006
> > The Rev. Robert H. Schuller handed over the leadership of the Crystal > > Cathedral to his only son on Sunday, ending a half-century as pastor of > > a church he started in a drive-in movie theater in Orange County and > > built into a worldwide ministry.
> > Schuller, 79, waited until the close of his New Year's Day sermon to > > announce that Robert A. Schuller would succeed him as senior pastor > > Jan. 22. He will also take over the popular "Hour of Power," a > > religious program broadcast around the world.
> > "Bob needs your prayers," Schuller said, fighting back tears, his > > strong voice wavering with emotion. "But it is up to the congregation, > > not this guy or that guy - to make it happen."
> > The younger Schuller asked the congregation for help. "I need your > > prayers. I covet your prayers. From the time I was born, God has > > equipped me and allowed me to take on this incredible challenge. I am > > honored and humbled."
> > Like the pastor sons of evangelists Billy Graham and Oral Roberts, > > Robert A. Schuller, 51, follows a well-known figure of 20th century > > American Protestantism. But unlike televangelists such as Jerry Falwell > > and Pat Robertson, the elder Schuller stayed out of politics.
> > He set the tone for his upbeat ministry by first preaching from the > > roof of a drive-in theater snack bar in 1955. Setting aside the > > fire-and-brimstone sermons then common, Schuller developed a > > relentlessly optimistic form of Christianity that linked the power of > > positive thinking and self-esteem with uplifting Gospel messages. The > > mix was appealing enough to pack his church and attract millions of TV > > viewers around the world.
> > His ministry became a model for the thousands of nondenominational > > congregations - including some of the nation's largest churches - > > that have popped up in recent decades to serve believers uncomfortable > > with the formality of old-line faiths.
> > "Schuller is to be credited as one of the inventors of the megachurch," > > said Donald E. Miller, director for USC's Center for Religion and Civic > > Culture. "I suppose he is also someone who caused critics to raise > > questions whether this was just about marketing or about the truth of > > religion."
> > A devotee of the Rev. Norman Vincent Peale, the > > power-of-positive-thinking pioneer, Schuller has written more than 30 > > books, including five New York Times bestsellers. His writing is filled > > with aphorisms such as "inch by inch, it's a cinch," "turn your scars > > into stars" and "I will bloom where I am planted today!"
> > Schuller's message of optimism found favor among world leaders and > > celebrities, including every U.S. president from Richard Nixon to > > George W. Bush, industrialist Armand Hammer, Mother Teresa, deposed > > Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos and Coretta Scott King.
> > "Robert Schuller has had a major religious impact, not only in the > > United States, but in many parts of the world through his writings and > > television broadcasts," the Rev. Billy Graham said in a statement. The > > TV programs offered some of the first Christian broadcasting in the > > Soviet Union.
> > "Rev. Robert H. Schuller's great legacy will be his creative use of > > television to bring the message of Jesus Christ to the world," said > > Cardinal Roger M. Mahony of Los Angeles. "He was always searching for > > new ways to bring the Gospel message to as many people as possible."
> > The elder Schuller built the sprawling church complex in Garden Grove, > > including a glass-walled cathedral with 10,000 panes of glass, so > > architecturally rich that he received a lifetime achievement award from > > the American Institute of Architects.
> > Schuller's presence will still be felt throughout the ministry with its > > $72-million budget, 500 employees and 3,500 volunteers, according to > > church figures. Crystal Cathedral, part of the Reformed Church in > > America, has about 10,000 members; its broadcasts reach millions.
> > Freed from managing daily operations, Schuller plans to continue to > > preach at the church and has formulated a 20-year plan he hopes will > > culminate with him preaching at the Crystal Cathedral when he is 100. > > His title will be founding pastor.
> > "I am not retiring," Schuller insisted in an interview Friday.
> > He plans to raise an endowment of about $100 million to cover the $4 > > million in annual maintenance needed for the church buildings and > > grounds. Schuller said this would give the Crystal Cathedral the > > financial footing to continue for "a thousand years."
> > When the younger Schuller is installed as senior pastor, it will mark > > the culmination of a succession plan formalized in 1996.
> > After his father made the announcement Sunday, the younger Schuller > > joined him at the altar, and they embraced before an audience of 2,157 > > people who attended the first of two morning services. An additional > > 2,200 attended the second service. The church holds 3,000.
> > Crystal Cathedral members said afterward that while the senior Schuller > > drew them to the church, his son had grown to be a more confident and > > powerful preacher. They said they expected the church's upbeat tone to > > change little.
> > "I think young Robert has come a long way," said Virginia O. Hamilton, > > 79, of Irvine who has been attending the church for 36 years.
> > Floyd and Rae Baker, a retired Anaheim couple, agreed. But, his father > > "will be a hard act to follow," Floyd Baker said.
> > Some churchgoers said the younger Schuller faced a challenge in taking > > over a congregation drawn by his father's charisma and eloquence. "His > > dad, when he talks, he talks straight to your heart," said Celia > > Concepcion, 45, a cosmetics company owner from Carson.
> > The new senior pastor is a tall, handsome man with short brown hair and > > a rugged jaw. He has four children and lives in Laguna Beach with his > > second wife, Donna. He tries to lift weights daily and is a 20-handicap > > golfer in the sport he took up eight years ago, after giving up his > > hobby as a marlin fisherman.
> > His messages are delivered in a stiffer style than his father, but show > > the same optimism that runs through the family.
> > The elder Schuller's path to the Crystal Cathedral was forged on his > > own will and vision. A native of Iowa, he started preaching in Orange > > County in the mid-1950s, drawn to California because of its beaches, > > mountains, deserts and mild weather. He brought with him his wife, > > Arvella, to whom he has been married 55 years.
> > In the 1960s, Schuller moved his growing flock to a $5-million complex > > he called the Garden Grove Community Church. Schuller walked door to > > door, asking residents what they wanted in a church. His marketing > > survey would be emulated by churches nationwide.
> > Through the years, the church campus expanded to 40 acres and includes > > the work of some of the world's foremost architects. Philip Johnson > > designed the Crystal Cathedral and Richard Neutra the 14-story Tower of > > Hope, which houses a round-the-clock telephone counseling service, and > > is topped by a 90-foot illuminated cross.
> > Richard Meier designed the $40-million International Center for > > Possibility Thinking, a building that took 17 years to complete, in > > part, because of a neighbor who demanded - and got - $1 million for > > a tract house that stood in the minister's way.
> > Schuller said the design of the church was intended to reflect his > > philosophy: A person's deepest need is a spiritual hunger for glory.
> > Unlike some televangelists and major church leaders, the elder Schuller > > has remained untouched by major scandal, but not free of controversy. > > In 1997, he avoided a trial on assault charges when he apologized for > > "aggressively" grabbing a flight attendant by the shoulders in a > > dispute over service in the first class cabin.
> > Critics usually focus on Schuller's theology, believing that his > > optimistic messages and self-help philosophy act to water down > > Christianity.
> > "The idea that people could come to church in their pajamas and sit in > > their cars, that raised the question: What did this have to do with the > > cross of Jesus?" said USC's Miller. "Is this religion on the light > > side?"
> > A. Larry Ross, president of a Dallas-based public relations firm whose > > clients include Billy
> <<On a different topic, it appears Rick has figured out the > appropriate way to > engage in our little game.>>
> I am not sure what you mean by this. > Cheers
This response and then shutting up.
"Anyone interested can read both what the Scientology-run Web site has to say and those links posted in response at the Ross Institute. They then can then make up their own mind whatever they wish to surmise from the information provided."
>> <<On a different topic, it appears Rick has figured out the >> appropriate way to >> engage in our little game.>>
>> I am not sure what you mean by this. >> Cheers
> This response and then shutting up.
> "Anyone interested can read both what the Scientology-run Web site has > to say and those links posted in response at the Ross Institute. They > then can then make up their own mind whatever they wish to surmise from > the information provided."
of course people making up their own minds is not something that landmark grads want. they would prefer u get yourself brainwashed and then landmark can decide for u.
-- Love is all u need. Even landmark grads can be loved. Its not easy but it is a possibility.
>>> <<On a different topic, it appears Rick has figured out the >>> appropriate way to >>> engage in our little game.>>
>>> I am not sure what you mean by this. >>> Cheers
>> This response and then shutting up.
>> "Anyone interested can read both what the Scientology-run Web site has >> to say and those links posted in response at the Ross Institute. They >> then can then make up their own mind whatever they wish to surmise from >> the information provided."
> of course people making up their own minds is not > something that landmark grads want. they would prefer > u get yourself brainwashed and then landmark can > decide for u.
Decide for yourself Patrick.
http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.com/false_exp/RICK_ROSS_AND_THE_ROSS... The above PDF document has scanned copies of the original court documents, probation officer reports, psychiatric evaluations, criminal convictions, arrests, lawsuits against him from his own uncle and aunt, forced abductions, attempts to "deprogram" Christians and others and it goes on and on Patrick.
You can read the original documents, not someone's sanitized version of them. page 93 of the above PDF has Jason Scott's statement about his abduction by Ross and his attempt to "deprogram" him. He was a Christian who attended a Pentecostal Church, Patrick. First chance he got, he ran to a phone a called the police. I guess he wasn't very persuasive at shaking Jason's faith.
Here's part of the statement.
"Rick started in again ridiculing me about my church, my fiancé, my pastor, our worship, the church superintendent, the bible, our salvation, our baptism, our doctrine, our holiness standards, my truck, me and my self worth. He called me names like stupid and mush head. He degraded me and my school. He tore apart everything that I was and I stood for...."
Do you think Jason has the right to worship as he chooses Patrick? He's a Christian, like you.
Below is a link to Rick Ross' apologetic on his various mis-steps over the last 30 years. Or at least some of them. If you need an apologetic this long it should be a red flag that there is something seriously wrong. You are one of the top posters at his website. Do you condone his actions Patrick?
>> Since even Schuller is a scam to you can you please let us know who you >> would replace him with. Who are the people that you admire or have done >> things worthy of mention.
>> I have seen him on the odd occasion here on Aust .TV , and I certainly >> was >> impressed by his charm and ability to communicate.
>> Everything everyone says ACCORDING TO YOU seems to be a created >> Illusion >> of false hopes.?????
>> SO who in your mind is telling the truth ???? Rick Ross ????????
>> cheers Bruno
> Everything? Everyone?
> Glam
Why don't you answer the question then??????
It seems like Ellen can spit venom at Schuller and yet not reply who she is in admiration off. So until she replies I can only assume that everyone creates Illusions of false hopes for her.????
Maybe her friend Rick Ross is the only person that tells it as it is. The only person that carries the torch of Truth??????
So who are your Torch bearers of Truth???? Who are your mentors that don't create illusions and false hopes??
Please name them so we can understand all your values and viewpoints?????
I certainly admired Schuller although at times he may have been a little soapy; however he has achieved and delivered hope to thousands of people to help get them through the night and I think he should be acknowledged and respected for his achievements.
Words are cheap and anyone can criticise and pull someone down.
What have any of us here done that we can be proud of.???
Some achievement that has brought some hope or change for the better to this world, so then we can compare our achievements with Dr. Schullers???
>> <deprogra...@MailandNews.com> wrote in message >> news:1136217300.399830.35310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... >> > Just so much more selling power to the powerless and hope to the >> > hopeless (or the illusion of power to the powerless and a parcel of >> > false hopes to the hopeless):
>> > (I wonder if he pays Weenie any royalties.....)
>> > Schuller Hands His Son Keys to Crystal Cathedral >> > By William Lobdell and Dan Weikel >> > Times Staff Writers
>> > January 2, 2006
>> > The Rev. Robert H. Schuller handed over the leadership of the Crystal >> > Cathedral to his only son on Sunday, ending a half-century as pastor of >> > a church he started in a drive-in movie theater in Orange County and >> > built into a worldwide ministry.
>> > Schuller, 79, waited until the close of his New Year's Day sermon to >> > announce that Robert A. Schuller would succeed him as senior pastor >> > Jan. 22. He will also take over the popular "Hour of Power," a >> > religious program broadcast around the world.
>> > "Bob needs your prayers," Schuller said, fighting back tears, his >> > strong voice wavering with emotion. "But it is up to the congregation, >> > not this guy or that guy - to make it happen."
>> > The younger Schuller asked the congregation for help. "I need your >> > prayers. I covet your prayers. From the time I was born, God has >> > equipped me and allowed me to take on this incredible challenge. I am >> > honored and humbled."
>> > Like the pastor sons of evangelists Billy Graham and Oral Roberts, >> > Robert A. Schuller, 51, follows a well-known figure of 20th century >> > American Protestantism. But unlike televangelists such as Jerry Falwell >> > and Pat Robertson, the elder Schuller stayed out of politics.
>> > He set the tone for his upbeat ministry by first preaching from the >> > roof of a drive-in theater snack bar in 1955. Setting aside the >> > fire-and-brimstone sermons then common, Schuller developed a >> > relentlessly optimistic form of Christianity that linked the power of >> > positive thinking and self-esteem with uplifting Gospel messages. The >> > mix was appealing enough to pack his church and attract millions of TV >> > viewers around the world.
>> > His ministry became a model for the thousands of nondenominational >> > congregations - including some of the nation's largest churches - >> > that have popped up in recent decades to serve believers uncomfortable >> > with the formality of old-line faiths.
>> > "Schuller is to be credited as one of the inventors of the megachurch," >> > said Donald E. Miller, director for USC's Center for Religion and Civic >> > Culture. "I suppose he is also someone who caused critics to raise >> > questions whether this was just about marketing or about the truth of >> > religion."
>> > A devotee of the Rev. Norman Vincent Peale, the >> > power-of-positive-thinking pioneer, Schuller has written more than 30 >> > books, including five New York Times bestsellers. His writing is filled >> > with aphorisms such as "inch by inch, it's a cinch," "turn your scars >> > into stars" and "I will bloom where I am planted today!"
>> > Schuller's message of optimism found favor among world leaders and >> > celebrities, including every U.S. president from Richard Nixon to >> > George W. Bush, industrialist Armand Hammer, Mother Teresa, deposed >> > Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos and Coretta Scott King.
>> > "Robert Schuller has had a major religious impact, not only in the >> > United States, but in many parts of the world through his writings and >> > television broadcasts," the Rev. Billy Graham said in a statement. The >> > TV programs offered some of the first Christian broadcasting in the >> > Soviet Union.
>> > "Rev. Robert H. Schuller's great legacy will be his creative use of >> > television to bring the message of Jesus Christ to the world," said >> > Cardinal Roger M. Mahony of Los Angeles. "He was always searching for >> > new ways to bring the Gospel message to as many people as possible."
>> > The elder Schuller built the sprawling church complex in Garden Grove, >> > including a glass-walled cathedral with 10,000 panes of glass, so >> > architecturally rich that he received a lifetime achievement award from >> > the American Institute of Architects.
>> > Schuller's presence will still be felt throughout the ministry with its >> > $72-million budget, 500 employees and 3,500 volunteers, according to >> > church figures. Crystal Cathedral, part of the Reformed Church in >> > America, has about 10,000 members; its broadcasts reach millions.
>> > Freed from managing daily operations, Schuller plans to continue to >> > preach at the church and has formulated a 20-year plan he hopes will >> > culminate with him preaching at the Crystal Cathedral when he is 100. >> > His title will be founding pastor.
>> > "I am not retiring," Schuller insisted in an interview Friday.
>> > He plans to raise an endowment of about $100 million to cover the $4 >> > million in annual maintenance needed for the church buildings and >> > grounds. Schuller said this would give the Crystal Cathedral the >> > financial footing to continue for "a thousand years."
>> > When the younger Schuller is installed as senior pastor, it will mark >> > the culmination of a succession plan formalized in 1996.
>> > After his father made the announcement Sunday, the younger Schuller >> > joined him at the altar, and they embraced before an audience of 2,157 >> > people who attended the first of two morning services. An additional >> > 2,200 attended the second service. The church holds 3,000.
>> > Crystal Cathedral members said afterward that while the senior Schuller >> > drew them to the church, his son had grown to be a more confident and >> > powerful preacher. They said they expected the church's upbeat tone to >> > change little.
>> > "I think young Robert has come a long way," said Virginia O. Hamilton, >> > 79, of Irvine who has been attending the church for 36 years.
>> > Floyd and Rae Baker, a retired Anaheim couple, agreed. But, his father >> > "will be a hard act to follow," Floyd Baker said.
>> > Some churchgoers said the younger Schuller faced a challenge in taking >> > over a congregation drawn by his father's charisma and eloquence. "His >> > dad, when he talks, he talks straight to your heart," said Celia >> > Concepcion, 45, a cosmetics company owner from Carson.
>> > The new senior pastor is a tall, handsome man with short brown hair and >> > a rugged jaw. He has four children and lives in Laguna Beach with his >> > second wife, Donna. He tries to lift weights daily and is a 20-handicap >> > golfer in the sport he took up eight years ago, after giving up his >> > hobby as a marlin fisherman.
>> > His messages are delivered in a stiffer style than his father, but show >> > the same optimism that runs through the family.
>> > The elder Schuller's path to the Crystal Cathedral was forged on his >> > own will and vision. A native of Iowa, he started preaching in Orange >> > County in the mid-1950s, drawn to California because of its beaches, >> > mountains, deserts and mild weather. He brought with him his wife, >> > Arvella, to whom he has been married 55 years.
>> > In the 1960s, Schuller moved his growing flock to a $5-million complex >> > he called the Garden Grove Community Church. Schuller walked door to >> > door, asking residents what they wanted in a church. His marketing >> > survey would be emulated by churches nationwide.
>> > Through the years, the church campus expanded to 40 acres and includes >> > the work of some of the world's foremost architects. Philip Johnson >> > designed the Crystal Cathedral and
Disgruntled Landmark Education (LE) "fans" often like to spam personal attacks at discussion groups like this one against their perceived enemies.
LE and its fans are not happy that the Ross Institute of New Jersey (RI) remains one of the most visible archives about controversial groups and movements, some called "cults" accessible through the Internet.
The RI database includes previously published media reports, court documents, research and critical comments from past participants concerning LE, formerly known as Erhard Seminar Training (EST) that features a large group awareness training (LGAT) seminar called the Forum.
RI has hundreds of group/topic subsections, but the LE subsection remains consistently one of the most popular and visited within its database.
Apparently in response to this during 2004 LE filed a lawsuit in New Jersey federal court against both me personally and RI claiming "product disparagement."
Through that lawsuit LE had the opportunity to prove in court that the information archived within the RI database was somehow either false and/or misleading.
However, rather than proceed and prove that point in its litigation LE chose instead to dismiss its own lawsuit in 2005.
RI also maintains an active message board that includes thousands of posts from people affected by controversial groups and movements, some called "cults" and various related topics.
At times LE fans have posted at the RI message board under various aliases in an apparent attempt to subvert the board and/or harass those posting there.
The board is moderated and has posted rules, which must be agreed upon first by any potential participant.
LE fans have at times violated these rules and subsequently been banned from the RI message board, such violations have included posting under more than one name and harassing members with unwanted spam through the board member's private messaging system.
Some of those banned have then subsequently posted personal attacks here against me and/or at other discussion groups that often ignore pertinent facts and/or historical context in an apparent effort to mislead the public.
Many of these attacks rely primarily upon material posted publicly through the Internet by a Church of Scientology-run Web site called "Religious Freedom Watch."
My published response to this Scientology sponsored attack has been publicly accessible through the Internet since 1998 and periodically updated in response to other claims that have been added.
If you read through this response with attached supporting documents, you can see how Landmark fans frequently and deliberately distort or completely ignore crucial and/or relevant facts regarding my personal/professional history in an attempt to mislead the public.
Please excuse the possible repetition of this posted response at various threads within this discussion group, but it is important to set the record straight when people posting comments here deliberately attempt to malign me through misinformation in an effort to mislead the public.
> It seems like Ellen can spit venom at Schuller and yet not reply who she > is in admiration off. > So until she replies I can only assume that everyone creates Illusions of > false hopes for her.????
Why would you assume that? It sounds like that's your "story," Bruno. It's not my "story." I see that Ellen points out false gurus and questionable beliefs...she doesn't find fault with *everyone.*
> Maybe her friend Rick Ross is the only person that tells it as it is. The > only person that carries the torch of Truth??????
> So who are your Torch bearers of Truth???? > Who are your mentors that don't create illusions and false hopes??
> Please name them so we can understand all your values and viewpoints?????
I don't really have any "Torch Bearers of Truth," actually. I admire many people for their accomplishments...scientists, doctors, researchers, artists, musicians, writers...
> I certainly admired Schuller although at times he may have been a little > soapy; however he has achieved and delivered hope to thousands of people to > help get them through the night and I think he should be acknowledged and > respected for his achievements.
> Words are cheap and anyone can criticise and pull someone down.
> What have any of us here done that we can be proud of.???
> Some achievement that has brought some hope or change for the better to > this world, so then we can compare our achievements with Dr. Schullers???
> cheers Bruno
> >> <deprogra...@MailandNews.com> wrote in message > >> news:1136217300.399830.35310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > >> > Just so much more selling power to the powerless and hope to the > >> > hopeless (or the illusion of power to the powerless and a parcel of > >> > false hopes to the hopeless):
> >> > (I wonder if he pays Weenie any royalties.....)
> >> > Schuller Hands His Son Keys to Crystal Cathedral > >> > By William Lobdell and Dan Weikel > >> > Times Staff Writers
> >> > January 2, 2006
> >> > The Rev. Robert H. Schuller handed over the leadership of the Crystal > >> > Cathedral to his only son on Sunday, ending a half-century as pastor of > >> > a church he started in a drive-in movie theater in Orange County and > >> > built into a worldwide ministry.
> >> > Schuller, 79, waited until the close of his New Year's Day sermon to > >> > announce that Robert A. Schuller would succeed him as senior pastor > >> > Jan. 22. He will also take over the popular "Hour of Power," a > >> > religious program broadcast around the world.
> >> > "Bob needs your prayers," Schuller said, fighting back tears, his > >> > strong voice wavering with emotion. "But it is up to the congregation, > >> > not this guy or that guy - to make it happen."
> >> > The younger Schuller asked the congregation for help. "I need your > >> > prayers. I covet your prayers. From the time I was born, God has > >> > equipped me and allowed me to take on this incredible challenge. I am > >> > honored and humbled."
> >> > Like the pastor sons of evangelists Billy Graham and Oral Roberts, > >> > Robert A. Schuller, 51, follows a well-known figure of 20th century > >> > American Protestantism. But unlike televangelists such as Jerry Falwell > >> > and Pat Robertson, the elder Schuller stayed out of politics.
> >> > He set the tone for his upbeat ministry by first preaching from the > >> > roof of a drive-in theater snack bar in 1955. Setting aside the > >> > fire-and-brimstone sermons then common, Schuller developed a > >> > relentlessly optimistic form of Christianity that linked the power of > >> > positive thinking and self-esteem with uplifting Gospel messages. The > >> > mix was appealing enough to pack his church and attract millions of TV > >> > viewers around the world.
> >> > His ministry became a model for the thousands of nondenominational > >> > congregations - including some of the nation's largest churches - > >> > that have popped up in recent decades to serve believers uncomfortable > >> > with the formality of old-line faiths.
> >> > "Schuller is to be credited as one of the inventors of the megachurch," > >> > said Donald E. Miller, director for USC's Center for Religion and Civic > >> > Culture. "I suppose he is also someone who caused critics to raise > >> > questions whether this was just about marketing or about the truth of > >> > religion."
> >> > A devotee of the Rev. Norman Vincent Peale, the > >> > power-of-positive-thinking pioneer, Schuller has written more than 30 > >> > books, including five New York Times bestsellers. His writing is filled > >> > with aphorisms such as "inch by inch, it's a cinch," "turn your scars > >> > into stars" and "I will bloom where I am planted today!"
> >> > Schuller's message of optimism found favor among world leaders and > >> > celebrities, including every U.S. president from Richard Nixon to > >> > George W. Bush, industrialist Armand Hammer, Mother Teresa, deposed > >> > Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos and Coretta Scott King.
> >> > "Robert Schuller has had a major religious impact, not only in the > >> > United States, but in many parts of the world through his writings and > >> > television broadcasts," the Rev. Billy Graham said in a statement. The > >> > TV programs offered some of the first Christian broadcasting in the > >> > Soviet Union.
> >> > "Rev. Robert H. Schuller's great legacy will be his creative use of > >> > television to bring the message of Jesus Christ to the world," said > >> > Cardinal Roger M. Mahony of Los Angeles. "He was always searching for > >> > new ways to bring the Gospel message to as many people as possible."
> >> > The elder Schuller built the sprawling church complex in Garden Grove, > >> > including a glass-walled cathedral with 10,000 panes of glass, so > >> > architecturally rich that he received a lifetime achievement award from > >> > the American Institute of Architects.
> >> > Schuller's presence will still be felt throughout the ministry with its > >> > $72-million budget, 500 employees and 3,500 volunteers, according to > >> > church figures. Crystal Cathedral, part of the Reformed Church in > >> > America, has about 10,000 members; its broadcasts reach millions.
> >> > Freed from managing daily operations, Schuller plans to continue to > >> > preach at the church and has formulated a 20-year plan he hopes will > >> > culminate with him preaching at the Crystal Cathedral when he is 100. > >> > His title will be founding pastor.
> >> > "I am not retiring," Schuller insisted in an interview Friday.
> >> > He plans to raise an endowment of about $100 million to cover the $4 > >> > million in annual maintenance needed for the church buildings and > >> > grounds. Schuller said this would give the Crystal Cathedral the > >> > financial footing to continue for "a thousand years."
> >> > When the younger Schuller is installed as senior pastor, it will mark > >> > the culmination of a succession plan formalized in 1996.
> >> > After his father made the announcement Sunday, the younger Schuller > >> > joined him at the altar, and they embraced before an audience of 2,157 > >> > people who attended the first of two morning services. An additional > >> > 2,200 attended the second service. The church holds 3,000.
> >> > Crystal Cathedral members said afterward that while the senior Schuller > >> > drew them to the church, his son had grown to be a more confident and > >> > powerful preacher. They said they expected the church's upbeat tone to > >> > change little.
> >> > "I think young Robert has come a long way," said Virginia O. Hamilton, > >> > 79, of Irvine who has been attending the church for 36 years.
> >> > Floyd and Rae Baker, a retired Anaheim couple, agreed. But, his father > >> > "will be a hard act to follow," Floyd Baker said.
> >> > Some churchgoers said the younger Schuller faced a challenge in taking > >> > over a congregation drawn by his father's charisma and eloquence. "His > >> > dad, when he talks, he talks straight to your heart," said Celia > >> > Concepcion, 45, a cosmetics company owner from Carson.
> >> > The new senior pastor is a tall, handsome man with short brown hair and > >> > a rugged jaw. He has four children and lives in Laguna Beach with his > >> > second wife, Donna. He tries to lift weights daily and is a 20-handicap > >> > golfer in the sport he took up eight years ago, after giving up his > >> > hobby as a marlin fisherman.
> >> > His messages are delivered in a stiffer style than his father, but show > >> > the same optimism that runs through the family.
> >> > The elder Schuller's path to the Crystal Cathedral was forged on his > >> > own will and vision. A native of Iowa, he started preaching in Orange > >> > County in the mid-1950s, drawn to California because of its beaches, > >> > mountains, deserts and mild weather. He brought with him his wife, > >> > Arvella, to whom he has been married 55 years.
> >> > In the 1960s, Schuller moved his growing flock to a $5-million complex > >> > he called the Garden Grove Community Church. Schuller walked door to > >> > door, asking residents what they wanted in a church. His marketing > >> > survey would be emulated by churches nationwide.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.landmark From: "Tex" <ritter_...@yahoo.com> - Find messages by this author Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:24:19 -0500 Local: Mon, Jan 2 2006 6:24 pm Subject: Re: International Center for Possibility Thinking Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
> 5. Tex > Jan 2, 10:30 am show options > <<On a different topic, it appears Rick has figured out the > appropriate way to > engage in our little game.>> > I am not sure what you mean by this. > Cheers
<<This response and then shutting up.
"Anyone interested can read both what the Scientology-run Web site has to say and those links posted in response at the Ross Institute. They then can then make up their own mind whatever they wish to surmise from
Rick sees that on attack on him is somehow defending Landmark.
Funny that he keeps saying that a Scientology website exposed him as if if that makes it not as bad. Who cares who exposed the truth? Ross only came out without after he realized he was being exposed as a convict. It was his only choice. It could not be ignored.
And, as Ross likes to repeat himself, so will I.
There are much better deprogrammers. Ones that have went to college, studied the field, and haven't committed any felonies.
>Since even Schuller is a scam to you can you please let us know who you >would replace him with. Who are the people that you admire or have done >things worthy of mention.
Oh, I don't know, Bruno.
Let me ask you something. Does the following quote from the above article make sense to you? Do you think it's true for most people? Is it true for you? Is "glory" YOUR deepest need? Do you concern yourself with it on a daily/weekly/monthly basis? Is it the "deepest need" for anyone you know?
"...Schuller said the design of the church was intended to reflect his philosophy: A person's deepest need is a spiritual hunger for glory."
I like better the notion that one should make his own communion with whatever diety he imagines IN HIS OWN CLOSET. The other is just so much show-biz, social"networking," stage-production, see-and-be-seen, opportunity to dress up, and EZ route to ~salvation,~ or something. Everybody loves a spectacle. Doesn't have much to do with any ~real~ religious feeling I can come up with.
Since I'm not religious, I'm not in a position to offer a "replacement," but this guy seems a better choice: (Scroll down to 'Heretics.' The program is one hour but I highly recommend taking the time to listen to it. It's also informative on some of the techniques used to manipulate people.)
The story of Reverend Carlton Pearson, a renowned evangelical pastor in Tulsa, Oklahoma, who cast aside the idea of hell, and with it, everything he'd worked for over his entire life. Prologue. Carlton Pearson's church, Higher Dimensions, was once one of the biggest in the city, drawing crowds of 5,000 people every Sunday. But several years ago, scandal engulfed the Reverend. He didn't have an affair. He didn't embezzle lots of money. His sin was something that to a lot of people is far worse ... he stopped believing in hell. (2 minutes) Act One. Rise. Reporter Russell Cobb takes us through the remarkable and meteoric rise of Carlton Pearson from a young man to a Pentecostal Bishop: from the moment he first cast the devil out of his seventeen-year-old girlfriend, to the days when he had a close, personal relationship with Oral Roberts and had appearances on TV and at the White House. Just as Reverend Pearson's career peaked, with more than 5,000 members of his congregation coming every week, he started to think about hell, wondering if a loving God would really condemn most of the human race to burn and writhe in the fire of hell for eternity. (30 minutes) Act Two. Fall. Once he starts preaching his own revelation, Carlton Pearson's church falls apart. After all, when there's no hell (as the logic goes), you don't really need to believe in Jesus to be saved from it. What follows are the swift departures of his pastors, and an exodus from his congregation - which quickly dwindled to a few hundred people. Donations drop off too, but just as things start looking bleakest, new kinds of people, curious, start showing up on Sunday mornings. (23 minutes) Song: "Let the Church Roll On," Mahalia Jackson
> >Since even Schuller is a scam to you can you please let us know who you >>would replace him with. Who are the people that you admire or have done >>things worthy of mention.
> Oh, I don't know, Bruno.
> Let me ask you something. Does the following quote from the above > article make sense to you? Do you think it's true for most people? Is > it true for you? Is "glory" YOUR deepest need? Do you concern > yourself with it on a daily/weekly/monthly basis? Is it the "deepest > need" for anyone you know?
> "...Schuller said the design of the church was intended to reflect > his > philosophy: A person's deepest need is a spiritual hunger for glory."
I think Schuller hit a button here that many people yearn for | "Meaning and purpose" He was on the right path for his congregation that supported him to build his Church, no mean feat.
Another word may be "Self Actualisation" as Maslow puts it.
> I like better the notion that one should make his own communion with > whatever diety he imagines IN HIS OWN CLOSET.
I get that but we are all different.
The other is just so
> much show-biz, social"networking," stage-production, see-and-be-seen, > opportunity to dress up, and EZ route to ~salvation,~ or something. > Everybody loves a spectacle. Doesn't have much to do with any ~real~ > religious feeling I can come up with.
It may have something to do with the magic of Group dynamics which Werner also hit on. If people feel good about themeselves by being with similar folks, singing those hymns and hoping for a better future surely you are not against that??? Schuller uses, music, song, a beautiful Glass Cathederal, and a very positive sermon where all the congregation is accepted as part of the human family. The wanting to belong is also a strong need in many of us.
The fact that in the bunch may be some hypocrites, Christian grace allows people to have compassion for their fellow beings.
I think the question to ask is whether Schuller is a fraud and to date you have not shown this, in the same manner that you have not shown Werners ideas were fraudelent.( The ideas and concepts borrowed from other thinkers)
Werners past behaviour may have been suspect and if it was he also was caught being a hypocrite.
May I remind you how has your behaviour been in the past. Are you as squeaky clean as you make out to be or did you also have something to hide from the past ??? I don't know Ellen and I'm not claiming anything as I don't know you, but just to remind you that all humans are frail and when the right buttons come along its very easy to fall into a hole.
> Since I'm not religious, I'm not in a position to offer a > "replacement," but this guy seems a better choice: (Scroll down to > 'Heretics.' The program is one hour but I highly recommend taking the > time to listen to it. It's also informative on some of the techniques > used to manipulate people.)
I think the underlying message in religion is hope. Hope for the future which is a very basic need in all of us. Maslow called it "Security" I think , the second rung on the ladder of his triangle just after food and basic neccesities. I like to live in hope and have some form of security that makes my life more pleasant to live. Ofcourse it can be taken away from me any moment from now and I have no control over it. Eg Tsunami , Motor accident, disease
So what, there's nothing I can do anyhow if Tragedy strikes, so I may as well live in hope and security till its time to go into the grave.
Maybe you don't need it and have other needs that satisfy you.
All it shows is that we are different people with different needs .
> The story of Reverend Carlton Pearson, a renowned evangelical pastor in > Tulsa, Oklahoma, who cast aside the idea of hell, and with it, > everything he'd worked for over his entire life. > Prologue. Carlton Pearson's church, Higher Dimensions, was once one of > the biggest in the city, drawing crowds of 5,000 people every Sunday. > But several years ago, scandal engulfed the Reverend. He didn't have an > affair. He didn't embezzle lots of money. His sin was something that to > a lot of people is far worse ... he stopped believing in hell. (2 > minutes) > Act One. Rise. Reporter Russell Cobb takes us through the remarkable > and meteoric rise of Carlton Pearson from a young man to a Pentecostal > Bishop: from the moment he first cast the devil out of his > seventeen-year-old girlfriend, to the days when he had a close, > personal relationship with Oral Roberts and had appearances on TV and > at the White House. Just as Reverend Pearson's career peaked, with more > than 5,000 members of his congregation coming every week, he started to > think about hell, wondering if a loving God would really condemn most > of the human race to burn and writhe in the fire of hell for eternity. > (30 minutes) > Act Two. Fall. Once he starts preaching his own revelation, Carlton > Pearson's church falls apart. After all, when there's no hell (as the > logic goes), you don't really need to believe in Jesus to be saved from > it. What follows are the swift departures of his pastors, and an exodus > from his congregation - which quickly dwindled to a few hundred > people. Donations drop off too, but just as things start looking > bleakest, new kinds of people, curious, start showing up on Sunday > mornings. (23 minutes) > Song: "Let the Church Roll On," Mahalia Jackson
>I think Schuller hit a button here that many people yearn for | "Meaning and >purpose" >He was on the right path for his congregation that supported him
.to build his Church, no mean feat.
>Another word may be "Self Actualisation" as Maslow puts it.
Gee, Bruno - a long response with NO answer to my question.
Here it is again:
Do you feel a "deep spiritual hunger for glory?" Does anyone you know? Do you think "most" people do?
>It may have something to do with the magic of Group dynamics which Werner >also >hit on.
[...and figured out how to exploit.}
>If people feel good about themeselves by being with similar folks, >singing those hymns >and hoping for a better future surely you are not against that??? >Schuller uses, music, song, a beautiful Glass Cathederal, and a very >positive sermon where all >the congregation is accepted as part of the human family. >The wanting to belong is also a strong need in many of us.
[....one easily tapped by scammers.]
>I think the question to ask is whether Schuller is a fraud and to date you >have not shown this,
[...pretty tough to prove someone cannot or has not delivered on some "promise" of eternal life (or whatever) when there is no proof it exists and no one has come back to verify that it does.]
>in the same manner that you have not shown Werners ideas were fraudelent.( >The ideas and concepts borrowed from other thinkers)
In the same manner! Good grief, Bruno. You can't be that dense.
I, and lots of other writers here, where you've been hanging out for (?) how many years, have CATALOGED all of Werner Erhard's bogus claims countless times.
The notion of ~completion,~ for instance. Scientology sells some ~technology~ that supposedly gives people the power to eradicate bad feelings from bad memories, which was Werner Erhard's mistake to pinch from them. It's as stupid as anything that has come out of the "New Age Self-Improvement Scam" business.
>Werners past behaviour may have been suspect and if it was he also was >caught being a hypocrite.
SUSPECT!! Oh please....you really are beyond reasoning with.
ellena...@gmail.com wrote: > >I think Schuller hit a button here that many people yearn for | "Meaning and > >purpose" > >He was on the right path for his congregation that supported him > .to build his Church, no mean feat.
> >Another word may be "Self Actualisation" as Maslow puts it.
> Gee, Bruno - a long response with NO answer to my question.
> Here it is again:
> Do you feel a "deep spiritual hunger for glory?" Does anyone you > know? Do you think "most" people do?
> >It may have something to do with the magic of Group dynamics which Werner > >also > >hit on.
> [...and figured out how to exploit.}
(...as have countless others....many, many well before Rosenberg.)
>>I think Schuller hit a button here that many people yearn for | "Meaning >>and >>purpose" >>He was on the right path for his congregation that supported him > .to build his Church, no mean feat.
>>Another word may be "Self Actualisation" as Maslow puts it.
> Gee, Bruno - a long response with NO answer to my question.
> Here it is again:
> Do you feel a "deep spiritual hunger for glory?" Does anyone you > know? Do you think "most" people do?
Well it all depends what Schuller means by this. I think there is a hunger for "Meaning and purpose" in the Western world.
Yes I do know some people that are not happy with all the goodies we have in the West and are looking for more satisfaction to life than just materialism. I think Maslow explains it well with his Hierarchal values sytem. Self actualisation is the pinnacle for people who have achieved all the other values.
Do most people want this????,
I don't know. It all depends where you are on the Maslow scale to what your needs are?????
>>It may have something to do with the magic of Group dynamics which Werner >>also >>hit on.
> [...and figured out how to exploit.}
>>If people feel good about themeselves by being with similar folks, >>singing those hymns >>and hoping for a better future surely you are not against that??? >>Schuller uses, music, song, a beautiful Glass Cathederal, and a very >>positive sermon where all >>the congregation is accepted as part of the human family. >>The wanting to belong is also a strong need in many of us.
> [....one easily tapped by scammers.]
>>I think the question to ask is whether Schuller is a fraud and to date you >>have not shown this,
> [...pretty tough to prove someone cannot or has not delivered on some > "promise" of eternal life (or whatever) when there is no proof it > exists and no one has come back to verify that it does.]
This belief of life after death is difficult to grasp. Its been debated ever since man created culture. You can't prove it and you can't disprove it. ( The sceptical argument " How do you know" works both ways here.)
>>in the same manner that you have not shown Werners ideas were fraudelent.( >>The ideas and concepts borrowed from other thinkers)
> In the same manner! Good grief, Bruno. You can't be that dense.
Yes I am dense.
You have never argued or debated with any of the pro LEC Stalwarts without resorting to personal; attacks, generalisations and often just creating stories which often are false. Whenever I have invited you to criticise any of the Emails put forth by LEC stalwarts that are more articulate and knowledgable than me your absence has been noted. You are as quite as a church mouse.
> I, and lots of other writers here, where you've been hanging out for > (?) how many years, have CATALOGED all of Werner Erhard's bogus claims > countless times.
What other writers??? Glam, who else???? I have never seen the bogus claims you say you have catalogued???. Where are they???????
> The notion of ~completion,~ for instance. Scientology sells some > ~technology~ that supposedly gives people the power to eradicate bad > feelings from bad memories, which was Werner Erhard's mistake to pinch > from them. It's as stupid as anything that has come out of the "New > Age Self-Improvement Scam" business.
Here you go again, what does Scientology have to do with LEC. Keep to the topic Ellen as the concepts and ideas are hard enough to understand without you dragging Scientology into the argument.
Completion, forgiveness, pardon, absolve, excuse, finishing an action work for many people.
It all depends whether you are a believer of the New testament that espouses forgiveness, or the Old Testament that still calls on " An eye for an eye and a toooth for a tooth"
I was brought up in the Christian faith and forgiveness is an acceptable behaviour for me.
If you think its stupid fine, I don't.
>>Werners past behaviour may have been suspect and if it was he also was >>caught being a hypocrite.
> SUSPECT!! Oh please....you really are beyond reasoning with.
He was a Hypocrite and got caught out. He paid the price and sold the business to others. Mere mortals make these mistakes all the time.
