New Haven August 14, 1983
computeruser
Did you hear about James Slee when you were in GSLP?
Did you know any assistants who were at this est training?
http://en.allexperts.com/e/j/ja/james_slee.htm
Tex
I think this happened after I had left est for good.
I did go back as a guest of a staff member for some of the Satuday
Sattelite stuff.
I was not aware of the story until a few years ago,
Were you still doing stuff with them when this happened?
What was the spin?
computeruser
On Nov 6, computeruser wrote:
> Tex
>
> Did you hear about James Slee when you were in GSLP?
>
> Did you know any assistants who were at this est training?
>
> http://en.allexperts.com/e/j/ja/james_slee.htm
I think this happened after I had left est for good.
I did go back as a guest of a staff member for some of the Satuday
Sattelite stuff.
I was not aware of the story until a few years ago,
Were you still doing stuff with them when this happened?
What was the spin?
===
This was before my time. I stumbled upon this site, yesterday. I remembered
you started your est journey in Boston, and thought it might have been
close, time wise.
.
Eldon
That's pretty strange. It says he was on the stage, so presumably he
dropped dead during a "share." Hard to imagine stress causing that in
an apparently healthy 24-year-old.
Eldon
Here's another one that sounds a bit more plausible:
computeruser
On Nov 7, "computeruser" wrote:
> Tex
>
> Did you hear about James Slee when you were in GSLP?
>
> Did you know any assistants who were at this est training?
>
> http://en.allexperts.com/e/j/ja/james_slee.htm
That's pretty strange. It says he was on the stage, so presumably he
dropped dead during a "share." Hard to imagine stress causing that in
an apparently healthy 24-year-old.
---
This is what I thought of when reading him being on Stage. At one point
during the training one row at a time; the participants went up on stage to
confront their ability to be ~~present~~ under scrutiny of the audience,
assistants, and the trainer. Shoulder to Shoulder practically. There would
be 10 to 20 people up on stage at a time; depending on the size of the stage
and the volume a participants in the specific training. After a while,
during the exercise. it became more intense as an assistant came right up to
the participant and stood face to face about a foot and a half away. Eye
contact locked in. This was known to me as a ~~Be With~~. The participants
were guided to explore what it was like and to introspect on their own
reactions of ~~being~~ with another. Perhaps someone else could elaborate
more about this process or processes on stage.
Depending on the person it could have been stressful enough for him to check
out, if the psycho-drama in his thoughts elevated his heart rate, enough to
blow something out. The leader could have been pressing the envelope with
him individually or it could have been induced by the drama going on with
others etc.
I bet the informed consent and the hold harmless clause went in the
paperwork shortly after this event.
Caligari
It was called the Fear-Danger Process when I was involved in est. It
went on for what felt like hours and was very strange, hypnotic and
stressful.
-- Caligari
Tex
>
> - Show quoted text -
I found it powerful, liberating and an exercise that allowed me to
have greater compassion for others and myself.
Try just looking at each other without judgement and seeing the
relationship you have with others when you realize you don't need to
fear them.
This was a big breakthrough for many.
You know, the people that pass you in the street and stare at the
pavement?
Or stare at the numbers on the elevator until it's their time to step
off?
I don't believe anyone knows what caused JAmes Slee to faint.
My understanding is that his death was caused by the trauma of the
fall.
After this, they had "catchers" standing behind people in case they
fainted.
The stage part lasted 4 or 5 minutes per group. Then you sat down and
quietly focused on those on stage.
Look at the people in the audience, then look at the assistants
standing in front of you, silently, without expression.
For people with stage fright, looking out at 250 other people could be
stressful.
It wasn't for me. I wasn't afraid of those people.
Eldon
What? He "fainted" and then died from a concussion? Gee, I think that
if his haid was fractured, the coroner might have caught that. The
worst epileptic seizures don't ordinarily kill people, though they
might crack a few bones or knock out some teeth when they fall.
qt2t...@yahoo.com
exercise?
When you think of the sheer volume of people who've done est I thnk
the statistic is going to come out at the far right hand side of a
scale like 00.00001% of people had a serious problem.
How the heck are you going to predict that? And are you going to
decide that if one in a million people might die are you going to
eliminate the exercise from the workshop? Adding the catchers was the
appropriate response IMO.
As Eldon knows I've been known to log a lot of hours in various LGATs
in the past 35 years. I've seen people faint, pee in their pants, lose
their connection with present time, kick, scream and cry, shake
uncontrollably, flee from the room and even take all their clothes off
in front of everyone.
I also know one person who went psychotic in the days after an
intensive workshop (not Avatar). After trying to help her stabilize
myself for a few days I finally had to take her to the hospital where
she wound up staying for several months. They attributed her psychosis
to a chemical imbalance they called a "thyroid strorm" and removed her
thyroid gland while she was there. I don't think anyone could have had
any way to predict that she was vulnerable to this reactionby
participating in the workshop.
And I was present at a video feedback workshop called Playground where
an elderly Chinese man collapsed and died while doing his personal
exercise in front of the whole group. (BTW he was not fearful or
resisting anything but was having a ball pretending to be conducting a
symphony).
So this stuff happens in trainings and it happens in life. If there's
that one in a million person who is going to react this way then so be
it. There's too much good that is produced for too many people to
eliminate an exercise for that one person who may react in the
extreme.
Intake forms that would alert admins to any pre-existing conditions
that would indicate a person not do the more stressful exercises,
"catchers", and possibly medical equipment on hand like defibrillation
paddles or oxygen tanks and trained personnel to use them are about as
far as you could go in protecting people should something like this
happen are about as far as you can go.
Life = risk. There's at least some risk involved with everything we do
including sitting here at my computer. A wheel could fall off a plane
and come crashing through my ceiling.
I've done est at least half a dozen times and that exercise was always
extremely powerful for me in a good way as it was for all the other
participants as far as I could tell.
Tex
Certainly it didn't kill James Slee.
There is WAAAAY more stress involved in participating in a 5th grade
play.
Grown adults standing silentl on a stage looking at each other??????
Really not on the same scale, unless it conjures up that 5th grade
experience. ;-)
Six times????
Perhaps we've met along the way.
Caligari
As long as you convince each other, that's all that matters. Right?
Eldon
One in a million? Sounds like you're talking about ten people who
freaked out or had other bad reactions, including one who died in
front of you. Right?
So were there a total of ten million people attending those various
workshops? This is just simple math.
>
> Intake forms that would alert admins to any pre-existing conditions
> that would indicate a person not do the more stressful exercises,
> "catchers", and possibly medical equipment on hand like defibrillation
> paddles or oxygen tanks and trained personnel to use them are about as
> far as you could go in protecting people should something like this
> happen are about as far as you can go.
In fact, at the original est workshops led by Werner, who could get
pretty abusive, they used to have a psychiatrist on call to handle any
psychotic breaks that occurred. So they must have anticipated the
possibility.
Serena Nordstrup
How many?
Serena Nordstrup
According to Steven Pressman (as channeled in detail by Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_of_Jack_Slee_v._Werner_Erhard ) a
body-catcher caught Slee: "Individuals were known to collapse during
the est training, and an est graduate whose role was called a "body
catcher" or "people catcher" broke Slee's fall and then went to get
help."
> The stage part lasted 4 or 5 minutes per group. Then you sat down and
> quietly focused on those on stage.
> Look at the people in the audience, then look at the assistants
> standing in front of you, silently, without expression.
> For people with stage fright, looking out at 250 other people could be
> stressful.
> It wasn't for me. I wasn't afraid of those people.
Fear has something to do with stress?
computeruser
___
Of course its possibly when they are crushing strongly held paradigms.
Having a psychiatrist on-call was not limited to est or the sessions lead by
Werner. This practice was still going on with The Forum (late 1980's) with
any leader facilitating.
People who were in therepy with a psychologist or psychiatrist were required
to get a release from them before their registration was considered
complete.
> Life = risk. There's at least some risk involved with everything we do
> including sitting here at my computer. A wheel could fall off a plane
> and come crashing through my ceiling.
>
> I've done est at least half a dozen times and that exercise was always
> extremely powerful for me in a good way as it was for all the other
> participants as far as I could tell.
.
Caligari
From WSJ Article, "Self-Help Doesn't Help—And Often Hurts ",
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704597704574487361535281216.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
:
'...Consider that today's increasingly popular "large group awareness
training" (LGAT) incorporates tactics more commonly identified with
psychological warfare. Facilitators bully attendees verbally and
sometimes physically, call upon them to relive their worst experiences
in humiliating detail in front of strangers, deprive them of sleep and
even bathroom privileges—all in the name of self-actualization. In
expert testimony in a 1992 lawsuit against the best-known of these
LGATs, Landmark Forum (long a favored choice for corporate retreats),
the clinical psychologist Margaret Singer observed that Forum "applies
a number of powerful and psychologically disturbing, emotionally
arousing and defense destabilizing techniques to large groups of
people, in an intense, marathon-like period." How can this not have a
catastrophic effect on people in a fragile emotional state—which is
surely the case with a sizable contingent of those who seek out these
"transformational" courses to begin with?
Other offerings, bracketed as "relationships therapy" or
"assertiveness training," can wreak havoc on existing interpersonal
bonds. Stories abound of couples whose marriages fell victim to gurus
who celebrated promiscuity and "personal morality," or who chastised
participants for their codependent (that is, caring and empathetic)
ways.
Apologists argue that there are bad outcomes in any endeavor, that
it's unfair to single out self-help when, say, conventional medicine
kills thousands each year. The difference is that in medicine,
practitioners share demonstrated expertise in methods that evolved
over time and have been tested and retested for efficacy. A bad
outcome in a field with proven benefits is unfortunate. A bad outcome
in a field with little basis for existing in the first place is
unforgivable. As noted psychologist Michael Hurd told me, "Gurus
encourage these poor, already troubled souls to literally take leave
of their senses, as if departing reason will somehow liberate you."...'
tex
>
> - Show quoted text -
Convince each other of what, Enric?
You were so "horrified" by the danger process that you dedicated 6
years of "volunteer" service to Werner and company.
Perhaps you have now convinced yourself it was worse than it actually
was.
We can chalk it up to the fact that you were young and naive.
At 24, I was one of the younger volunteers.
I'm assuming you were also among the youngest, starting at 18.
tex
We are talking about the death of James Slee.
MY math says that adds up to one.
>
> So were there a total of ten million people attending those various
> workshops? This is just simple math.
Counting to one should be easy, even to you CU. ;-)
So his math is correct.
It is you that has multilied by 10.
Congratulations, you can multiply 1x10 and get the correct answer.
You are ready to advance to the next level. :-)
>
>
>
> > Intake forms that would alert admins to any pre-existing conditions
> > that would indicate a person not do the more stressful exercises,
> > "catchers", and possibly medical equipment on hand like defibrillation
> > paddles or oxygen tanks and trained personnel to use them are about as
> > far as you could go in protecting people should something like this
> > happen are about as far as you can go.
>
> In fact, at the original est workshops led by Werner, who could get
> pretty abusive, they used to have a psychiatrist on call to handle any
> psychotic breaks that occurred. So they must have anticipated the
> possibility.
>
> ___
>
> Of course its possibly when they are crushing strongly held paradigms.
>
> Having a psychiatrist on-call was not limited to est or the sessions lead by
> Werner. This practice was still going on with The Forum (late 1980's) with
> any leader facilitating.
>
> People who were in therepy with a psychologist or psychiatrist were required
> to get a release from them before their registration was considered
> complete.
>
> > Life = risk. There's at least some risk involved with everything we do
> > including sitting here at my computer. A wheel could fall off a plane
> > and come crashing through my ceiling.
>
> > I've done est at least half a dozen times and that exercise was always
> > extremely powerful for me in a good way as it was for all the other
> > participants as far as I could tell.
>
> .- Hide quoted text -
computeruser
On Nov 8, computeruser wrote:
> "Eldon" wrote...
> On Nov 7, qt2th...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > So this is one death in how many people that have passed through that
> > exercise?
>
> > the statistic is going to come out at the far right hand side of a
> > scale like 00.00001% of people had a serious problem.
>
> > How the heck are you going to predict that? And are you going to
> > decide that if one in a million people might die are you going to
> > eliminate the exercise from the workshop? Adding the catchers was the
> > appropriate response IMO.
>
> > As Eldon knows I've been known to log a lot of hours in various LGATs
> > in the past 35 years. I've seen people faint, pee in their pants, lose
> > their connection with present time, kick, scream and cry, shake
> > uncontrollably, flee from the room and even take all their clothes off
> > in front of everyone.
>
> > I also know one person who went psychotic in the days after an
> > intensive workshop (not Avatar). After trying to help her stabilize
> > myself for a few days I finally had to take her to the hospital where
> > she wound up staying for several months. They attributed her psychosis
> > thyroid gland while she was there. I don't think anyone could have had
> > any way to predict that she was vulnerable to this reaction by
> > participating in the workshop.
>
> > And I was present at a video feedback workshop called Playground where
> > an elderly Chinese man collapsed and died while doing his personal
> > exercise in front of the whole group. (BTW he was not fearful or
> > resisting anything but was having a ball pretending to be conducting a
> > symphony).
>
> > So this stuff happens in trainings and it happens in life. If there's
> > that one in a million person who is going to react this way then so be
> > it. There's too much good that is produced for too many people to
> > eliminate an exercise for that one person who may react in the
> > extreme.
>
> One in a million? Sounds like you're talking about ten people who
> freaked out or had other bad reactions, including one who died in
> front of you. Right?
We are talking about the death of James Slee.
MY math says that adds up to one.
> So were there a total of ten million people attending those various
> workshops? This is just simple math.
Counting to one should be easy, even to you CU. ;-)
So his math is correct.
It is you that has multiplied by 10.
Congratulations, you can multiply 1x10 and get the correct answer.
You are ready to advance to the next level. :-)
~~~~
Tex - Newsflash! you are attributing something to me which Eldon wrote.
>
>
>
> > Intake forms that would alert admins to any pre-existing conditions
> > that would indicate a person not do the more stressful exercises,
> > "catchers", and possibly medical equipment on hand like defibrillation
> > paddles or oxygen tanks and trained personnel to use them are about as
> > far as you could go in protecting people should something like this
> > happen are about as far as you can go.
>
> In fact, at the original est workshops led by Werner, who could get
> pretty abusive, they used to have a psychiatrist on call to handle any
> psychotic breaks that occurred. So they must have anticipated the
> possibility.
>
> ___
This next section was mine:
> Of course its possibly when they are crushing strongly held paradigms.
>
> Having a psychiatrist on-call was not limited to est or the sessions lead
> by
> Werner. This practice was still going on with The Forum (late 1980's) with
> any leader facilitating.
>
> People who were in therapy with a psychologist or psychiatrist were
Tex
> "tex" <ritter_...@yahoo.com> wrote ...
Could you possibly reply in such a way that we can tell what you say
and what you are replying to?
Google groups does this just fine.
How many years have you been posting on usenet?
>
>
>
> > Of course its possibly when they are crushing strongly held paradigms.
>
> > Having a psychiatrist on-call was not limited to est or the sessions lead
> > by
> > Werner. This practice was still going on with The Forum (late 1980's) with
> > any leader facilitating.
>
> > People who were in therapy with a psychologist or psychiatrist were
> > required
> > to get a release from them before their registration was considered
> > complete.
>
> > > Life = risk. There's at least some risk involved with everything we do
> > > including sitting here at my computer. A wheel could fall off a plane
> > > and come crashing through my ceiling.
>
> > > I've done est at least half a dozen times and that exercise was always
> > > extremely powerful for me in a good way as it was for all the other
> > > participants as far as I could tell.
>
> > .- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
computeruser
Of course psychotic breaks are possible when they are crushing
strongly held paradigms.
Having a psychiatrist on-call was not limited to est or the sessions
lead by
Werner. This practice was still going on with The Forum (late 1980's)
with
any leader facilitating.
People who were in therepy with a psychologist or psychiatrist were
required
to get a release from them before their registration was considered
complete.
~~~
Re-posted via Google, with some slight editing. Apparently, when
replying via my newsreader; Outlook Express, it doesn't always add
the ">" which caused some confusion for Tex.
> > Life = risk. There's at least some risk involved with everything we do
> > including sitting here at my computer. A wheel could fall off a plane
> > and come crashing through my ceiling.
>
> > I've done est at least half a dozen times and that exercise was always
> > extremely powerful for me in a good way as it was for all the other
> > participants as far as I could tell.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
tex
LOL!!!
Oh really?
How do you crush a paradigm?
You still sound like a cult member?
You mean I can go 5 hours without needing to go wee wee?????
Get me a straight jacket. ;-)
Does that "mean" anything to you?
paradigm
A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes
a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them,
especially in an intellectual discipline.
Eldon
What a nasty, supercilious piece of shit you are. People can die
before your eyes (or within your knowledge) and you justify it.
OK. Go ahead. Just thought I would point that out. Plus the fact that
you're an anonymous troll.
Tex
Oh please, spare me the melodrama.
You were looking into cashing in on the seminar market as an Avatar
"Master", and have probably taken dozens of them.
Now you feign offense because I suggest that radical "paradigms" such
as staying in the room for 4 to 5 hours at a time is probably not a
psychosis inducing event?
CU and Caligari give way to much power to the seminar leaders at the
est/landmark events.
You did Lifespring.
How many people did you see die that weekend?
How many "psychotic" breaks did you witness?
Come to think of it, this could explain your obsessive/compulsive
behavior towards Avatar.
You snapped.
>
> OK. Go ahead. Just thought I would point that out. Plus the fact that
> you're an anonymous troll.
LOL!!!
And you're a drunk old drama queen. ;-)
At least that's what Wayne told me!!!
Tex
Ahh, I had the same problem with Outlook Express.
When comcast stopped offering news server service my problems were
solved.
I should be more understanding.
Serena Nordstrup
~possibly~ with an alternative paradigm.
(Some paradigms develop or come with competitor-crushing modules...)
Sophomorically
Serena
Eldon
Do believe everythig Wayne teells you. He's a paragon of sincerity.
tex
So the two of you were meant for each other????
Eldon
Maybe in karrmic terms. But in your case, maybe you should drop in for
a visit next time you're in San Diego and get to know him personally.
Maybe he'll have an extra "sister bride" available to shag.
Wayne
> On Nov 10, 4:34 pm, tex <ritter_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Maybe in karrmic terms. But in your case, maybe you should drop in for
> a visit next time you're in San Diego and get to know him personally.
> Maybe he'll have an extra "sister bride" available to shag.
>
>>
Or maybe you could wander into the public toilets in the park and tap on
stall walls, Eldon. I can't imagine you earn much but, as they say,
it's a living and probably better than plagiarising the work of others
and peddling it as your own.
Eldon
Freaking out, aren't you Waynus? Why might that be?
Wayne
Not a bit and don't know why you'd think so. I'm having one of the best
times of my life. Right place, right time, right me.
How're things for you as a public utility?
Eldon
Maybe I'll ask Lana for a little confirmation. That's her on Facebook,
right?
computeruser
newspapers about a man who died during a Werner Erhard and Associates
seminar, commenting: "Art anticipates life." Ebert further questioned the
conceit of the film, asking the question: "Could a major corporation get
away with this brainwashing?"
However, the authors of the book upon which the film was based, conluded
their preface by stating: "And please remember as you read - it's true."
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_Power
**
I've always known this film as Brainwash.
It was actually based on Leadership Dynamics, the harsh leadership training
developed by William Penn Patrick for his Holiday Magic distributors, and
very differnt than the Mind Dynamics course developed by Alexander Everett
with the funding of William Penn Patrick.
Mind Dynamics is likely closer to est. Erhard may have done this Leadership
Dynamics course while he was with Patrick's Holiday Magic organization.
****
Circle of Power, a 1983 film, co-produced by Gary Mehlman, Anthony Quinn and
Jeffrey White , was based on the book The Pit: A Group Encounter Defiled.
The film is also known as Mystique, Brainwash and The Naked Weekend.
Plot synopsis
Yvette Mimieux plays the chief executive of a giant corporation called
"Mystique"[1], but the organization is also known as "Executive Development
Training", or EDT[2]. Christopher Allport plays Jack Nilsson, a decent
all-American young executive[3].
Top management executives are required to spend a weekend with her at a
hotel, where they are put under psychological pressure[1]. As a prerequisite
to the training course, participants must sign a waiver giving the company
the release to physically and psychologically abuse the individuals in the
course[3]. The participants struggle with their shortcomings, such as
obesity and alcoholism[3]. Another individual is a closet homosexual, and a
fourth is a transvestite[2]. At one point in the film, the obese trainee is
forced to eat trash and discarded food in front of the other seminar
participants[2]. Eventually, the seminar executives and their wives lose
their inhibitions later on in the "consciousness-raising" coursework[4].
Reception
The film won a Dramatic Films award at the 1982 Sundance Film Festival[5].
Circle of Power played under the title: Mystique, at the 1981 Chicago
International Film Festival[1].
A review in The New York Times described Roth's Circle of Power as an
"attack on monolithic belief systems", and stated that the film was "a
worthwhile movie"[3]. Allmovie compared the psychological nature of the
techniques utilized by Executive Development Training to Erhard Seminars
Training, calling them "EST-like excesses"[2]. Roger Ebert gave the film
three-stars, and wrote that "..it's an entertaining film with serious
intentions.."[1]. Ebert's review of the film also compared it to events
reported in Boston newspapers about a man who died during a Werner Erhard
and Associates seminar, commenting: "Art anticipates life."[1] Ebert further
questioned the conceit of the film, asking the question: "Could a major
corporation get away with this brainwashing?"[1] However, the authors of the
book upon which the film was based, conluded their preface by stating: "And
please remember as you read - it's true.