Perception and experience for the benefit of the Muse.

[tubby]

" Shame on you, Bruno! Always henceforward I shall ~experience~ doubt
when you preach the value of direct ~experience~ .... "


May I remind the fair Muse that Perception comes before logic.

When we get things wrong it mainly because we have not "perceived "
the information as other people have and that may cause
disagreements of what we saw felt experienced or had sensations of..

Now the Muse claims she has never perceived or participated in any of
the Landmark workshops and offers her so called insights and
questions mainly through hearsay and other peoples opinions.

Landmark workshops aren't full proof and often people get upset with
some of the content. Example Patrick in this group still hates the
Jinn for valid reasons in regards to his perception of how the Jinn
treated him in one of the workshops. This is a valid point from
Patrick's point of view however I do recall he had also been smoking a
bit before participating in the workshops. ( Correct me if I am wrong
Patrick)
Now the Muse basis her perceptions of what may have taken place at
these workshops of people like Patrick and others who for various
reasons did not enjoy the workshops.


That '' s why IMO Direct experience is such a valuable action to take
so as fully judge for yourself what is really happening rather than
allowing other peoples prejudices, values affect your judgements and
conclusions.

Its the individual against the Collective in simple terms.

The Muse in this case sides with the collective, and does not have the
"Coyones" to actually research and make up her own experience of what
actually happens at these workshops.

So my dear Muse that's why I hold direct experience with all its
pitfalls more important than listening to
mere hearsay, gossip and opinion that you so dearly hold close to you.

cheers

[patrick]

On Friday, November 23, 2012 6:08:55 AM UTC-6, tubby wrote:
> " Shame on you, Bruno! Always henceforward I shall ~experience~ doubt
>
> when you preach the value of direct ~experience~ .... "
>
>
>
>
>
> May I remind the fair Muse that Perception comes before logic.
>
>
>
> When we get things wrong it mainly because we have not "perceived "
>
> the information as other people have and that may cause
>
> disagreements of what we saw felt experienced or had sensations of..

tubby some of your arguments may be true in most day to day experiences
but not when it comes to a for profit organization that wants to
empower u.

do u believe landmark would ever empower u with any ideas that didnt
help their bottom line ?

>
>
>
> Now the Muse claims she has never perceived or participated in any of
>
> the Landmark workshops and offers her so called insights and
>
> questions mainly through hearsay and other peoples opinions.
>
>
>
> Landmark workshops aren't full proof and often people get upset with
>
> some of the content. Example Patrick in this group still hates the
>
> Jinn for valid reasons in regards to his perception of how the Jinn
>
> treated him in one of the workshops.

this is the truth. that nasty little man jinn, that was a landmark
forum leader and now is supposedly according to landmark someone they
call on for information and leadership.

hey they guy plays filthy games, of course the people dont seem to mind.
u may not believe it but there have others before u that say it doesnt
mean anything. there are those who say that even if this is a group with
a litle satanic background that they dont care. they feel they got something
from it and it doesnt matter that that is what it is.

This is a valid point from
>
> Patrick's point of view however I do recall he had also been smoking a
>
> bit before participating in the workshops. ( Correct me if I am wrong
>
> Patrick)

i am going to assume u are saying that i smoked some marijuana before
parts or at least one part of my forum experience , then i would have
to correct u.

on the other hand if u say i smoked marijuana in my life at some
point in my life before the forum, u would be correct.

>
> Now the Muse basis her perceptions of what may have taken place at
>
> these workshops of people like Patrick and others who for various
>
> reasons did not enjoy the workshops.

i dont know if understand that there have been that have taken the
forum and then had to be hospitalized, maybe a short time later.

i know u wont believe this. but some of those people were intentionally
taken down. if u dont leave landmark brainwashed they would have
u injured, and remember they tell u up front u can be injured.

that is when they have u sign away your rights just in case u fail.

landmark wants all the attendees to be happy landmark campers.
if u are not , attempts can and will be made to push u over the edge.

the last thing werner and hubbard would want is for u to talk about
the jinn, the satanic religion that jinnendra is a part of.

and u may say he is not of the religion jinn, but a member of jain
then maybe u can explain why he word a name tag of jinn and never
one of jain, and told us that his last name is the name of a religion.

landmark has truth, i just told u some. u wont believe it though.

>
>
>
>
>
> That '' s why IMO Direct experience is such a valuable action to take
>
> so as fully judge for yourself what is really happening rather than
>
> allowing other peoples prejudices, values affect your judgements and
>
> conclusions.

getting with other people and learning from each other is a good thing.
not a bad one. using your own experience is a good thing also.

u dont seem to understand that landmark is using mind control techniques
to make u happy. apparently it worked on u.


u defend them.

the moment u step into the room with landmark they give u what u cant
perceive and what u get is not real.

>
>
>
> Its the individual against the Collective in simple terms.
>
>
>
> The Muse in this case sides with the collective, and does not have the
>
> "Coyones" to actually research and make up her own experience of what
>
> actually happens at these workshops.
>

shes a female. she doesnt have any coyones silly :)

>
>
> So my dear Muse that's why I hold direct experience with all its
>
> pitfalls more important than listening to
>
> mere hearsay, gossip and opinion that you so dearly hold close to you.

possibly true if u are not duped by profit seeking organizations. maybe not if
are a human and makes mistakes.

for years there has been an invitation for jinn to come to this group
and explain himself. he never has.




>
>
>
> cheers

[Kenny McCormick]

> i am going to assume u are saying that i smoked some marijuana before
> parts or at least one part of my forum experience , then i would have
> to correct u.
> on the other hand if u say i smoked marijuana in my life at some
> point in my life before the forum, u would be correct.

I trust potheads only so far, if at all.

Smoking Marijuana can result in brain damage, can result in memory
loss and can result in dullness and impair judgement. I was told
this by a scientist friend though I will offer no statistics nor
evidence to back this point of view.

But let's look at it in the real world. All other things being equal,
would you prefer a stoner- pilot who is known to be a pothead piloting
the jumbo jet you are travelling in or a pilot who has never smoked
marijuana, piloting your airplane?

[patrick]

On Friday, November 23, 2012 10:48:17 AM UTC-6, Kenny McCormick wrote:
> > i am going to assume u are saying that i smoked some marijuana before
>
> > parts or at least one part of my forum experience , then i would have
>
> > to correct u.
>
> > on the other hand if u say i smoked marijuana in my life at some
>
> > point in my life before the forum, u would be correct.
>
>
>
>
>
> I trust potheads only so far, if at all.
>
>
>
> Smoking Marijuana can result in brain damage, can result in memory
>
> loss and can result in dullness and impair judgement. I was told
>
> this by a scientist friend though I will offer no statistics nor
>
> evidence to back this point of view.

have u ever taken any kind of prescription drugs in your life ?

>
>
>
> But let's look at it in the real world. All other things being equal,
>
> would you prefer a stoner- pilot who is known to be a pothead piloting
>
> the jumbo jet you are travelling in or a pilot who has never smoked
>
> marijuana, piloting your airplane?

i would never want anyone who has just smoked to drive an airplane.
i would also never want anyone who has taken medications to drive one either.

again i ask.

have u ever taken any kind of drug. and by the way i dont consider marijuara
a drug.

also u snipped all of my post. now with my mariquana mind, as u might want
to call it, i have taken notice of your snipping posts.

can u put away the mariquana issue for a moment and tell me what in my
post that u cut do u not want continued ?

[Kenny McCormick]

> i would never want anyone who has just smoked to drive an airplane.

I did not ask about one who "just smoked". Reread what I actually
said/asked.

> and by the way i dont consider marijuara a drug.

Interesting

> also u snipped all of my post. now with my mariquana mind, as u might want
> to call it, i have taken notice of your snipping posts.

the original post is above snipping does not conceal or distort
anything. snipping allows for discussing the points any person at any
time might want to comment on.

> can u put away the mariquana issue for a moment and tell me what in my
> post that u cut do u not want continued ?

If you are a pothead or "recreational smoker", it could impact
people's opinion of what you say

[patrick]

now if u would answer my question. how about just one of them.

have u ever taken prescription drugs that were yours or somebody
elses ?

a truthful answer may color the way some people percieve u and what
value if any they give to your posts.

[Kenny McCormick]

> now if u would answer my question. how about just one of them.

> have u ever taken prescription drugs that were yours or somebody
> elses ?

Yes.

> a truthful answer may color the way some people percieve u and what
> value if any they give to your posts.

AND, all other things being equal, I would prefer to be on an
airplane that is being piloted by a pilot who has NEVER smoked
marijuana products or used other recreational drugs over one who has.

[patrick]

i suppose u dont have a problem with a pilot who has ingested drugs
in his past.

do u believe it would be possible to find a pilot who hasnt ingested drugs ?

what kind of drugs have u ingested ?

[Kenny McCormick]

> i suppose u dont have a problem with a pilot who has ingested drugs
> in his past.

Here it is again: I would prefer to be on an airplane that is being
piloted by a pilot who has NEVER ingested MARIJUANA PRODUCTS nor has
ever used what are commonly referred to as RECREATIONAL DRUGS of any
kind, over a pilot who has.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_drug_use#Gallery_of_some_recreational_drugs

> do u believe it would be possible to find a pilot who hasnt ingested drugs ?

Would I say it is possible to find an airline pilot who has not
ingested MARIJUANA PRODUCTS nor has ever used other RECREATIONAL
DRUGS in his or her lifetime?

Most definitely yes.

> what kind of drugs have u ingested?

List all the drugs you have ingested Patrick?

[patrick]

On Friday, November 23, 2012 12:56:26 PM UTC-6, Kenny McCormick wrote:
> > i suppose u dont have a problem with a pilot who has ingested drugs
>
> > in his past.
>
>
>
> Here it is again: I would prefer to be on an airplane that is being
>
> piloted by a pilot who has NEVER ingested MARIJUANA PRODUCTS nor has
>
> ever used what are commonly referred to as RECREATIONAL DRUGS of any
>
> kind, over a pilot who has.
>
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_drug_use#Gallery_of_some_recreational_drugs
>
>
>
> > do u believe it would be possible to find a pilot who hasnt ingested drugs ?
>
>
>
> Would I say it is possible to find an airline pilot who has not
>
> ingested MARIJUANA PRODUCTS nor has ever used other RECREATIONAL
>
> DRUGS in his or her lifetime?

that wasnt my question. do u believe its possible to find a pilot that
hasnt injested drugs of any kind .

not just recreational but prescribed ones.

>
>
>
> Most definitely yes.
>
>
>
> > what kind of drugs have u ingested?
>
>
>
> List all the drugs you have ingested Patrick?

quit being grumpy please and answer the question .

[Kenny McCormick]

> that wasnt my question. do u believe its possible to find a pilot that
> hasnt injested drugs of any kind .
>> not just recreational but prescribed ones.

I don't know and don't care.

> quit being grumpy please and answer the question.

Go smoke another joint Patrick, and stay away from courses and no
operating heavy machinery.

[patrick]

u appear to me to be much like tex. we cant have a discussion either
if he is asked a question.

how many courses have u taken ?

[tubby]

On Nov 24, 3:08 am, patrick <patrickda...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> On Friday, November 23, 2012 6:08:55 AM UTC-6, tubby wrote:
> > " Shame on you, Bruno! Always henceforward I shall ~experience~ doubt
>
> > when you preach the value of direct ~experience~ .... "
>
> > May I remind the fair Muse that Perception comes before logic.
>
> > When we get things wrong it mainly because we have not "perceived "
>
> > the information  as other people have and that may cause
>
> > disagreements of what we saw felt experienced or had sensations of..
>
> tubby some of your arguments may be true in most day to day experiences
> but not when it comes to a for profit organization that wants to
> empower u.
>
> do u believe landmark would ever empower u with any ideas that didnt
> help their bottom line ?

Their product has value or it does not.In your case you weren't happy
with what you bought
and in my view it would have made good business sense to return your
monies had you made it known to them.
Their Marketing techniques are all about the bottom line however they
are up front about how they operate.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Now the Muse claims she has never perceived or participated in any of
>
> > the Landmark workshops and offers her so called insights and
>
> > questions  mainly through hearsay and other peoples opinions.
>
> > Landmark workshops aren't full proof and often people get upset with
>
> > some of the content. Example  Patrick in this group still hates the
>
> > Jinn for valid reasons in regards to his perception of how the Jinn
>
> > treated him in one of the workshops.
>
> this is the truth. that nasty little man jinn, that was a landmark
> forum leader and now is supposedly according to landmark someone they
> call on for information and leadership.
>
> hey they guy plays filthy games, of course the people dont seem to mind.
> u may not believe it but there have others before u that say it doesnt
> mean anything. there are those who say that even if this is a group with
> a litle satanic background that they dont care. they feel they got something
> from it and it doesnt matter that that is what it is.
>
>  This is a valid point from
>
>
>
> > Patrick's point of view however I do recall he had also been smoking a
>
> > bit before participating  in the workshops. ( Correct me if I am wrong
>
> > Patrick)
>
> i am going to assume u are saying that i smoked some marijuana before
> parts or at least one part of my forum experience , then i would have
> to correct u.

I take that back Patrick and thank you for the correction.

Yes I do because no one here except possibly Caligari has got down to
the nitty gritty
of how their techniques work.
Even he was then ignored on what he was trying to explore..
People fall into these groups because something works otherwise they
wouldn't continue
to hang around.
If we discovered what is the positives that these groups deliver then
we may have a chance to investigate
and discover the so called negatives that you claim are there.
I don't relate to The Jinn. My perceptions of the event are different
to yours and so cannot understand your position.

>
> the moment u step into the room with landmark they give u what u cant
> perceive and what u get is not real.

Okay so what was it you got. It must have been positive otherwise you
would not have hung around??

>
>
>
> > Its the individual against the Collective in simple terms.
>
> > The Muse in this case sides with the collective, and does not have the
>
> > "Coyones" to actually research and make up her own experience of what
>
> > actually happens at these workshops.
>
> shes a female. she doesnt have any coyones silly :)

Do we really know that????
What about Pau her alter ego???/
Who is he/she

>
>
>
> > So my dear Muse that's why I hold direct experience with all its
>
> > pitfalls more important than listening to
>
> > mere hearsay, gossip and opinion that you so dearly hold close to you.
>
> possibly true  if u are not duped by profit seeking organizations. maybe not if
> are a human and makes mistakes

>

> for years there has been an invitation for jinn to come to this group
> and explain himself. he never has.

I can't speak for the Jinn but since you were offended by him , you
could write to him care off
Landmark. I think the easy access to communication these days may
give you a good chance of reply.
Who knows????

Thanks for having the courage to tell us about yourself Patrick ( Your
Manuscript on line ) and what is driving you in this debate.
At least we may understand that there is a person and not a robot who
was not happy with the result of attending a workshop.

And also what is important at least in my mind that you are human with
all the frailties and challenges that we all have to face to some
degree or
other. So we are all in the same boat together trying to figure out
what is the best way to the promised land.

Pity the robots in the boat can't or don't want to at least try to get
to the land which is supposedly just over the horizon.

On another note, are you inspired by Ben's approach to life where he
has got the bull by the horns and enjoying all the challenges
thrown to him by time??????

I can tell you I am because the reality is that those many younger
people placed in some retired villages are having a real
hard time just getting out of bed and facing the day.

I just hope that we can all have that jest for life as we approach
time because there is no escape.

Cheers bruno

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > cheers

[Kenny McCormick]

> Yes I do because no one here except possibly Caligari has got down to
> the nitty gritty
> of how their techniques work.

Caligari "possibly" "got down to the nitty gritty" of his personal
opinions of how their techniques work cherry picking and presenting
selections of info. in the same way that Ellen and Serena do, that
confirmed the POV he harboured AFTER est and solely coming from the
POV he harboured AFTER est. Not much different than the distorted
views one hears from an estranged romantic partner. There is complete
denial of the many long years spent together that was satisfying and
beneficial in a myriad of ways, in favour of it all being rewritten to
paint the ex in the worst possible light.

[Serena Nordstrup]

On Nov 24, 7:32 am, Kenny McCormick <kennymccormicksfa...@gmail.com>
wrote:

No doubt. And in terms of Bruno's advocacy of ~experience~, that
fictional pilot who has never "smoked marijuana products or used other
recreational drugs" might well have less ~experience~ than a pilot who
has (say) consumed mind-altering substances (alcohol, for instance) in
the dim and distant past...

[Serena Nordstrup]

On Nov 24, 1:08 am, tubby <btono...@gmail.com> wrote:
> " Shame on you, Bruno! Always henceforward I shall ~experience~ doubt
> when you preach the value of direct ~experience~ .... "
>
> May I remind the fair Muse that Perception comes before logic.

You may not, for you have not established that perception does "come

before" logic.

> When we get things wrong it mainly because we have not "perceived "
> the information  as other people have and that may cause
> disagreements of what we saw felt experienced or had sensations of..

Why do you regard different perception as "wrong"?

> Now the Muse claims she has never perceived or participated in any of
> the Landmark workshops

You made that up, Bruno.

> and offers her so called insights and
> questions  mainly through hearsay and other peoples opinions.

You don't like questions which attempt to cut through hearsay and
~opinion~?

> Landmark workshops aren't full proof and often people get upset with
> some of the content. Example  Patrick in this group still hates the
> Jinn for valid reasons in regards to his perception of how the Jinn
> treated him in one of the workshops. This is a valid point from
> Patrick's point of view however I do recall he had also been smoking a
> bit before participating  in the workshops. ( Correct me if I am wrong
> Patrick)
> Now the Muse basis her perceptions of what may have taken place at
> these workshops  of people like Patrick and others who for various
> reasons did not enjoy the workshops.

You made that up, Bruno.

> That '' s why IMO Direct experience is such a valuable action to take
> so as fully judge for yourself what is really happening  rather than
> allowing other peoples prejudices, values  affect your judgements and
> conclusions.

Huh? Oneself remains immune from prejudices and values?

> Its the individual against the Collective in simple terms.

... in over-simplistic terms.

> The Muse in this case sides with the collective, and does not have the
> "Coyones" to actually research and make up her own experience of what
> actually happens at these workshops.

You made that up, Bruno.

> So my dear Muse that's why I hold direct experience with all its
> pitfalls more important than listening to
> mere hearsay, gossip and opinion that you so dearly hold close to you.

Non sequitur.

When you wrote that you could not look at the solar eclipse because
you lacked the proper glasses, Bruno, did you base your conclusion on
hearsay? Did you pass on ~experiencing~ the eclipse on the basis of
science-hearsay?

[Serena Nordstrup]

On Nov 24, 1:20 pm, tubby <btono...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 24, 3:08 am, patrick <patrickda...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>
> > On Friday, November 23, 2012 6:08:55 AM UTC-6, tubby wrote:
> > > " Shame on you, Bruno! Always henceforward I shall ~experience~ doubt
>
> > > when you preach the value of direct ~experience~ .... "
>
> > > May I remind the fair Muse that Perception comes before logic.
>
> > > When we get things wrong it mainly because we have not "perceived "
>
> > > the information  as other people have and that may cause
>
> > > disagreements of what we saw felt experienced or had sensations of..
>
> > tubby some of your arguments may be true in most day to day experiences
> > but not when it comes to a for profit organization that wants to
> > empower u.
>
> > do u believe landmark would ever empower u with any ideas that didnt
> > help their bottom line ?
>
> Their product has value or it does not.

Depending on circumstances and individuals involved, component A of
the rosenbergist "product" may or may not may a perceived certain
amount of ~value~.

Depending on circumstances and individuals involved, component B of
the rosenbergist "product" may or may not may a perceived certain
amount of ~value~.

Depending on circumstances and individuals involved, component C of
the rosenbergist "product" may or may not may a perceived certain
amount of ~value~.

Depending on circumstances and individuals involved, component D of
the rosenbergist "product" may or may not may a perceived certain
amount of ~value~.

... etc.

> In your case you weren't happy
> with what you bought
> and in my view it would have made good business sense to return your
> monies had you made it known to them.
> Their Marketing techniques are all about the bottom line however they
> are up front about how they operate.

Except when otherwise...

<snip>

> > u dont seem to understand that landmark is using mind control techniques
> > to make u happy. apparently it worked on u.
>
> > u defend them.
>
> Yes I do because no one here except possibly Caligari has got down to
> the nitty gritty
> of how their techniques work.

Non sequitur.

> Even he was then ignored on what he was trying to explore..
> People fall into these groups because something works otherwise they
> wouldn't continue
> to hang around.

Not that many do hang around for long.

> If we discovered what is the positives that these groups deliver then
> we may have a chance to investigate
> and discover the so called negatives that you claim are there.

Non sequitur.

> I don't relate to The Jinn. My perceptions of the event are different
> to yours and so cannot understand your position.
>
> > the moment u step into the room with landmark they give u what u cant
> > perceive and what u get is not real.
>
> Okay so what was it you got. It must have been positive otherwise you
> would not have hung around??

Non sequitur.

<snip>

> Thanks for having the courage to tell us about yourself Patrick ( Your
> Manuscript on line )  and what is driving you in this debate.
> At least we may understand that there is a person and not a robot  who
> was not happy with the result of attending a workshop.

At this point in the discussion participants may pause to state that
they have no prejudices against robots, let alone against unhappy
robots.

> And also what is important at least in my mind that you are human with
> all the frailties and challenges that we all have to face to some
> degree or
> other.  So we are all in the same boat together trying to figure out
> what is the best way to the promised land.

Sounds like a Judeo-Christian meme smuggled in there...

> Pity the robots in the boat can't or don't want to at least try to get
> to the land which is supposedly just over the horizon.

Have you assimilated someone's marketing about horizons?

> On another note, are you inspired by Ben's approach to life where he
> has got the bull by the horns and enjoying all the challenges
> thrown to him by time??????

All?

> I can tell you I am because the reality is that those many younger
> people placed in some retired villages are having a real
> hard time just getting out of bed and facing the day.

And you base this "reality" on direct personal ~experience~? ...

> I just hope that we can all have that jest for life as we approach
> time because there is no escape.

Oh, really?

[patrick]

On Friday, November 23, 2012 6:20:47 PM UTC-6, tubby wrote:
> On Nov 24, 3:08 am, patrick <patrickda...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>
> > On Friday, November 23, 2012 6:08:55 AM UTC-6, tubby wrote:
>
> > > " Shame on you, Bruno! Always henceforward I shall ~experience~ doubt
>
> >
>
> > > when you preach the value of direct ~experience~ .... "
>
> >
>
> > > May I remind the fair Muse that Perception comes before logic.
>
> >
>
> > > When we get things wrong it mainly because we have not "perceived "
>
> >
>
> > > the information  as other people have and that may cause
>
> >
>
> > > disagreements of what we saw felt experienced or had sensations of..
>
> >
>
> > tubby some of your arguments may be true in most day to day experiences
>
> > but not when it comes to a for profit organization that wants to
>
> > empower u.
>
> >
>
> > do u believe landmark would ever empower u with any ideas that didnt
>
> > help their bottom line ?
>
>
>
>
>
> Their product has value or it does not.In your case you weren't happy
>
> with what you bought
>
> and in my view it would have made good business sense to return your
>
> monies had you made it known to them.
>
> Their Marketing techniques are all about the bottom line however they
>
> are up front about how they operate.

if someone close to u attended a landmark event and had to be hospitalized
later because of a mental breakdown would u have a issue with this or would
u say that landmark told them upfront and had them sign waivers to release
landmark of any responsibility of their state of mind ?

hey , i didnt enjoy jinn talking filthy talk to my group.

if that was done in your program maybe u didnt mind it.

i can accept this if this is true. maybe your forum leader didnt use
filthy talk.

did he or didnt he or she .

>
> >
>
> > i dont know if understand that there have been that have taken the
>
> > forum and then had to be hospitalized, maybe a short time later.
>
> >
>
> > i know u wont believe this. but some of those people were intentionally
>
> > taken down. if u dont leave landmark brainwashed they would have
>
> > u injured, and remember they tell u up front u can be injured.
>
> >
>
> > that is when they have u sign away your rights just in case u fail.
>
> >
>
> > landmark wants all the attendees to be happy landmark campers.
>
> > if u are not , attempts can and will be made to push u over the edge.
>
> >
>
> > the last thing werner and hubbard would want is for u to talk about
>
> > the jinn, the satanic religion that jinnendra is a part of.
>
> >
>
> > and u may say he is not of the religion jinn, but a member of jain
>
> > then maybe u can explain why he word a name tag of jinn and never
>
> > one of jain, and told us that his last name is the name of a religion.
>
> >
>

> > landmark has no truth, i just told u some. u wont believe it though.

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > That '' s why IMO Direct experience is such a valuable action to take
>
> >
>
> > > so as fully judge for yourself what is really happening  rather than
>
> >
>
> > > allowing other peoples prejudices, values  affect your judgements and
>
> >
>
> > > conclusions.
>
> >
>
> > getting with other people and learning from each other is a good thing.
>
> > not a bad one. using your own experience is a good thing also.
>
> >
>
> > u dont seem to understand that landmark is using mind control techniques
>
> > to make u happy. apparently it worked on u.
>
> >
>
> > u defend them.
>
>
>
> Yes I do because no one here except possibly Caligari has got down to
>
> the nitty gritty
>
> of how their techniques work.

maybe caligari can explore again how it works.

>
> Even he was then ignored on what he was trying to explore..
>
> People fall into these groups because something works otherwise they
>
> wouldn't continue
>
> to hang around.

its the hypnosis that works. under the hypnosis i say that it appears
landmark has helped people. they of course dont mention that they are
going to use hypnosis on u before u go there.

the crowd is pumped .

do u remember the danger process , formally the empowerment process.

im not sure how good for want of a better word your forum leader was,
but jinn did manage to get people rolling on the carpet in fear and
scream at the top of their lungs.

wailing and screaming and crying.

>
> If we discovered what is the positives that these groups deliver then
>
> we may have a chance to investigate
>
> and discover the so called negatives that you claim are there.

there are no positives. just because u interpret landmark to have
positives, this is not the truth. many people are relieved of their
past issues, but not really because they still carry their past with them
and put it away in their minds under direction of the forum leader.

>
> I don't relate to The Jinn. My perceptions of the event are different
>
> to yours and so cannot understand your position.

do u have any problems with people being misled in any kind of lgat ?

is your interpretation the truth of what happened or is it possible
that were made to feel good and go with the flow.

>
>
>
> >
>
> > the moment u step into the room with landmark they give u what u cant
>
> > perceive and what u get is not real.
>
>
>
> Okay so what was it you got. It must have been positive otherwise you
>
> would not have hung around??

actually weeks before i did the forum , i seem to have done what a women
that works for landmark said that i was doing the forum on myself.

my roommate told me this. he was being led her and he said that after
he told her what i was doing to myself was like the forum. of course
i had no one to coach me.

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > Its the individual against the Collective in simple terms.
>
> >
>
> > > The Muse in this case sides with the collective, and does not have the
>
> >
>
> > > "Coyones" to actually research and make up her own experience of what
>
> >
>
> > > actually happens at these workshops.
>
> >
>
> > shes a female. she doesnt have any coyones silly :)
>
>
>
>
>
> Do we really know that????
>
> What about Pau her alter ego???/
>
> Who is he/she
>
> >

we dont actually know that u have me. do u want to post a pic of yours on the
internet ?

>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > So my dear Muse that's why I hold direct experience with all its
>
> >
>
> > > pitfalls more important than listening to
>
> >
>
> > > mere hearsay, gossip and opinion that you so dearly hold close to you.
>
> >
>
> > possibly true  if u are not duped by profit seeking organizations. maybe not if
>
> > are a human and makes mistakes
>
>
>
> >
>
> > for years there has been an invitation for jinn to come to this group
>
> > and explain himself. he never has.
>
>
>
> I can't speak for the Jinn but since you were offended by him , you
>
> could write to him care off
>
> Landmark. I think the easy access to communication these days may
>
> give you a good chance of reply.
>
> Who knows????

i believe people have done this in the past.
art came to the newsgroup and mentioned that he read every day.
they have the info, why doesnt jinn react to it.

he is no longer a forum leader but a consultant now.

what do u think he consults landamrk about.

>
>
>
> Thanks for having the courage to tell us about yourself Patrick ( Your
>
> Manuscript on line ) and what is driving you in this debate.
>
> At least we may understand that there is a person and not a robot who
>
> was not happy with the result of attending a workshop.
>
>
>
> And also what is important at least in my mind that you are human with
>
> all the frailties and challenges that we all have to face to some
>
> degree or
>
> other. So we are all in the same boat together trying to figure out
>
> what is the best way to the promised land.

now if we could just agree that that giving your mind to a for profit
organization that has as its first priority to get u back for more is not
the way.

>
>
>
> Pity the robots in the boat can't or don't want to at least try to get
>
> to the land which is supposedly just over the horizon.
>
>
>
> On another note, are you inspired by Ben's approach to life where he
>
> has got the bull by the horns and enjoying all the challenges
>
> thrown to him by time??????

of course. i bengi is quite awesome.

>
>
>
> I can tell you I am because the reality is that those many younger
>
> people placed in some retired villages are having a real
>
> hard time just getting out of bed and facing the day.

ok, heres a question. hypothetical if u will. if people are
made in the lgats to feel good about themselves and feel they
want to recuit other to their group (while there may be some
satanic religion in the background that they are aware of)
would u have any kind of problem with this ?

>
>
>
> I just hope that we can all have that jest for life as we approach
>
> time because there is no escape.

it is unfortanate how so many people have been abused by others that
they look at someone who has taken a course and see how they feel
better about themselves that they want to feel better too.

its a shame how we treat each other.



can u give us some insight into how u felt before u took any courses
and give us the before and after u.


>
>
>
> Cheers bruno
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > cheers

love is all u need.

and speaking of love, does anybody know how to add a signature for the
new google groups ?

[Serena Nordstrup]

On Nov 25, 2:40 am, Kenny McCormick <kennymccormicksfa...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > Yes I do because no one here except possibly Caligari has got down to
> > the nitty gritty
> > of how their techniques work.
>
> Caligari "possibly" "got down to the nitty gritty" of his personal
> opinions of how their techniques work cherry picking and presenting
> selections of info.

"Possibly". But in this case we can review Caligari's posts and cherry-
pick evidence to support or to refute that ~ possibility ~...

> in the same way that Ellen and Serena do,  that
> confirmed the  POV he harboured AFTER est  and solely coming from the
> POV he harboured AFTER est.

"Solely"? Caligari expunged all disconfirming memories and
~experiences~. -- Once again we have text to trawl through to
establish the truth of this claim...

> Not much different than the distorted
> views one hears from an estranged romantic partner.  There is complete
> denial of the many long years spent together that was satisfying and
> beneficial in a myriad of ways, in favour of it all being rewritten to
> paint the ex in the worst possible light.

... and therefore we should ban divorce and rosenbergists should
corral all their recalcitrant defectors into re-education prisons...

[bentot]

The lawyers would love, and the airlies would hate, it if a plane
piloted by someone with a history of druge use crashes. For the dead,
the resulting donnybrook doesn't matter. The tug of war among
surviving kin, airline companies, law makers and lawyers to make rules
about who can and can't fly airplanes does matter. After the rules,
(full of compromises) are made comes the hard part, vetting pilots and
enforcing the rules.

What kind of pilot woud you bet your life on?

Not being suicidal, I am very clear about who I would choose to
command the plane I'm on!

bentot

[Serena Nordstrup]

On Nov 27, 11:22 am, bentot <bentot1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 22:47:22 -0800 (PST), Serena Nordstrup
>

> <s_nordst...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >On Nov 24, 7:32 am, Kenny McCormick <kennymccormicksfa...@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >> > now if u would answer my question. how about just one of them.
> >> > have u ever taken prescription drugs that were yours or somebody
> >> > elses ?
>
> >> Yes.
>
> >> > a truthful answer may color the way some people percieve u and what
> >> > value if any they give to your posts.
>
> >> AND, all other things being equal, I would prefer to be on an
> >> airplane that is being piloted by a pilot who has NEVER smoked
> >> marijuana products or used other recreational drugs over one who has.
>
> >No doubt. And in terms of Bruno's advocacy of ~experience~, that
> >fictional pilot who has never "smoked marijuana products or used other
> >recreational drugs" might well have less ~experience~ than a pilot who
> >has (say) consumed mind-altering substances (alcohol, for instance) in
> >the dim and distant past...
>
> No doubt. And in terms of Bruno's advocacy of ~experience~, that
> fictional pilot who has never "smoked marijuana products or used other
> recreational drugs" might well have less ~experience~ than a pilot who
> has (say) consumed mind-altering substances (alcohol, for instance) in
> the dim and distant past...

Furthermore, in terms of Bruno's advocacy of ~experience~, that

fictional pilot who has never "smoked marijuana products or used
other
recreational drugs" might well have less ~experience~ than a pilot
who
has (say) consumed mind-altering substances (alcohol, for instance)
in
the dim and distant past...

> The lawyers would love, and the airlies would hate, it if a plane
> piloted by someone with a history of druge use crashes.  For the dead,
> the resulting donnybrook doesn't matter.  The tug of war among
> surviving kin, airline companies, law makers and lawyers to make rules
> about who can and can't fly airplanes does matter.  After the rules,
> (full of compromises) are made comes the hard part, vetting pilots and
> enforcing the rules.
>
> What kind of pilot woud you bet your life on?

Oh, if I considered ~life~ important ...

> Not being suicidal, I am very clear about who I would choose to
> command the plane I'm on!

Come the day you feel suicidal, do you get the ~choice~ ?

[tubby]

There Muse then go back to your heavens with your Muses and leave us
mere mortals
to tend to our own life. ( lives)

Can now understand finally why you are so mean and miserable.

MM now stands for Miserable Muse.

Have fun
Cheers

>
> > Not being suicidal, I am very clear about who I would choose to
> > command the plane I'm on!
>

> Come the day you feel suicidal, do you get the ~choice~ ?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[bentot]

Choice, with or without tildes, is available, suicidal or not. And,
not-choosing is still choice.

bentot

[patrick]

On Friday, November 23, 2012 6:08:55 AM UTC-6, tubby wrote:

have ay of u actually actually ever made a decision as to who has
piloted your plane for u :)

[Serena Nordstrup]

Can you now understand (~get~ the booby-prize) the bankruptcy of
preaching ~experience~ from the roof-tops, Bruno?

> MM now  stands for  Miserable Muse.

You get to ~create~ your own universe, Bruno -- positive or negative.

[Serena Nordstrup]

On Nov 28, 3:45 am, bentot <bentot1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 00:43:50 -0800 (PST), Serena Nordstrup
>

You demonstrate yet another way of making rosenbergist wittering
meaningless and empty.

[Serena Nordstrup]

I place faith and trust in the regulatory authorities of civil
aviation and in the pilot-training schools (the ones who did deals to
educate the pilots of September 11, 2001).

[bentot]

As do, you....

[Serena Nordstrup]

!