alt.fanv is not defunct
patrick
patience tex.
Eldon
> its just been running a little lite on landroids as of late.
>
> patience tex.
My guess is that things will pick up soon when a forthcoming scandal
hits. With all the recent stuff about Scientology and James Ray's
sweat lodge disaster, another Landmark scandal shouldn't be too far in
the future.
Tex
Name one you can recall?
patrick
one i remember was when the leader of part of landmarks cult stuff in
dallas
anally raped a forum attendee he lured to his home.
does that count ?
computeruser
On Nov 2, Eldon wrote:
> On Nov 1, patrick wrote:
>
> > its just been running a little lite on landroids as of late.
>
> > patience tex.
>
> My guess is that things will pick up soon when a forthcoming scandal
> hits. With all the recent stuff about Scientology and James Ray's
> sweat lodge disaster, another Landmark scandal shouldn't be too far in
> the future.
Name one you can recall?
***
1) Darren Mack
2) A French and a Dutch documentary.
---
W.E.
tex
Well, if Darren mack is a Landmark scandal then every church member
that commits a crime is also a scandal for that church, in your view?
Do you view every Athiest that committs a crime a reflection on you
and your beliefs?
Every Objectivist?
>
> 2) A French and a Dutch documentary.
The French documentary was a joke, for the most part.
The exposing of the the volunteer work force was a good thing and the
strongest part of the program.
Perhaps their enrollment is down these days.
Do you still keep in touch with the center your worked for, CU?
>
> ---
>
> W.E.
Tex
Didn't here about that one, Pat.
I heard about what these "good" Christians did, though.
http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/
Evidence suggests that many instances of child abuse by clergy were
not one-time, isolated incidents. Shielded by a church culture of
secrecy, some deviant priests preyed upon numerous victims during
multiple parish assignments. Four priests in particular stand out for
the number of abuse claims or the seriousness of the charges against
them.
• Now-defrocked priest John Geoghan allegedly preyed on young boys
in a half-dozen Boston-area parishes for decades. He is serving nine
to 10 years in prison for fondling a youth at a pool in Waltham; a
child rape charge and many civil claims are pending.
• Up until his death in 1989, the Rev. Joseph Birmingham allegedly
befriended and then abused at least 50 boys over a 29-year career as a
priest in the Boston Archdiocese, even as archdiocesan officials
ignored numerous complaints against him.
• The Rev. Paul R. Shanley ran a "street ministry" in Boston in
the 1960s and '70s, allegedly taking advantage of youths who came to
him for guidance. He is awaiting trial on charges he raped four boys
at a Newton parish.
• The Rev. Ronald H. Paquin is the only Boston-area priest who has
admitted guilt in a criminal molestation case, and is serving 12 to 15
years in prison for rape. He also has acknowledged molesting several
boys during his ministry at parishes in Haverhill and Methuen.
Church records have revealed stories of many other repeat abusers,
including priests who traded drugs for sex with minors, fathered
children, and physically assaulted their victims. In the case of
almost every predator priest, church officials had reports of abusive
behavior, but allowed the priests to remain in ministry, documents
show. In many cases, accused priests were sent for brief periods of
psychological evaluation, then returned to parishes -- where they
abused again.
Eldon
The enrollment in France is zero since 2004, and the Dutch documentary
probably put quite a dent in that country's stats.
computeruser
"tex" wrote ...
On Nov 2, computeruser wrote:
> On Nov 2, "Tex" wrote:
> On Nov 2, Eldon wrote:
> > On Nov 1, patrick wrote:
>
> > > its just been running a little lite on landroids as of late.
>
> > > patience tex.
>
> > My guess is that things will pick up soon when a forthcoming scandal
> > hits. With all the recent stuff about Scientology and James Ray's
> > sweat lodge disaster, another Landmark scandal shouldn't be too far in
> > the future.
>
> Name one you can recall?
>
> ***
>
> 1) Darren Mack
Well, if Darren Mack is a Landmark scandal then every church member
that commits a crime is also a scandal for that church, in your view?
~~~
Darren was no mere member. He was a leader, and had been well regarded for
many years.
When a leader commits a violent crime, it shows abuse-of-power and
hypocrisy.
This was cult leader behavior.
Around this scandal there was also the way that the internet was swept for
references of the victim. This PR attempt to sweep it under the rug, was a
"scandal" bigger than the scandal of the crimal acts of a individual leader.
Saying nothing is akin to sanctioning the behavior.
Much in the same way the pedophile priests are one problem. The way the
catholic church has been known to move them to new parishes and continue to
allow them access to a flock is quite another problem.
It is like putting food out for vermin.
~~~
[SNIP]
x
computeruser
On Nov 2, patrick wrote:
> On Nov 2, Tex wrote:
> > On Nov 2, Eldon wrote:
> > > > its just been running a little lite on landroids as of late.
>
> > > > patience tex.
>
> > > My guess is that things will pick up soon when a forthcoming scandal
> > > hits. With all the recent stuff about Scientology and James Ray's
> > > sweat lodge disaster, another Landmark scandal shouldn't be too far in
> > > the future.
>
> > Name one you can recall?
>
> one i remember was when the leader of part of landmarks cult stuff in
> dallas
> anally raped a forum attendee he lured to his home.
>
> does that count ?
Didn't here about that one, Pat.
I heard about what these "good" Christians did, though.
~~~
Catholics are distinct from the rest of Christianity for their widespread
acceptance of this type of behavior from their priests. I say acceptance
because there has been no meaningful action to stop it.
All four bullets mention a priests or parishes, = Catholic.
This wide brush attempt to redirect doesn't pass.
I think you recognize not all Muslims are suicide bomber terrorists.
Religion causes more strife than healing. [That is my blanket statement.]
~~~
http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/
----
---
tex
> "tex" wrote ...
> On Nov 2, computeruser wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 2, "Tex" wrote:
> > On Nov 2, Eldon wrote:
> > > On Nov 1, patrick wrote:
>
> > > > its just been running a little lite on landroids as of late.
>
> > > > patience tex.
>
> > > My guess is that things will pick up soon when a forthcoming scandal
> > > hits. With all the recent stuff about Scientology and James Ray's
> > > sweat lodge disaster, another Landmark scandal shouldn't be too far in
> > > the future.
>
> > Name one you can recall?
>
> > ***
>
> > 1) Darren Mack
>
> Well, if Darren Mack is a Landmark scandal then every church member
> that commits a crime is also a scandal for that church, in your view?
>
> ~~~
> Darren was no mere member. He was a leader, and had been well regarded for
> many years.
>
> When a leader commits a violent crime, it shows abuse-of-power and
> hypocrisy.
> This was cult leader behavior.
Nonsense.
He was a volunteer who led some seminars.
If he was paid it wasn;t much.
Name me another cult leader that murdered his wife and shot a judge?
You were on staff, does that make youa cult leader?
MAck wasn't even on staff.
>
> Around this scandal there was also the way that the internet was swept for
> references of the victim. This PR attempt to sweep it under the rug, was a
> "scandal" bigger than the scandal of the crimal acts of a individual leader.
>
> Saying nothing is akin to sanctioning the behavior.
>
> Much in the same way the pedophile priests are one problem. The way the
> catholic church has been known to move them to new parishes and continue to
> allow them access to a flock is quite another problem.
>
> It is like putting food out for vermin.
a much bigger problem than Landmark.
Don't you agree?
> ~~~
>
> [SNIP]
>
> x- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Tex
> "Tex" wrote ...
> On Nov 2, patrick wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 2, Tex wrote:
> > > On Nov 2, Eldon wrote:
> > > > On Nov 1, patrick wrote:
> > > > > its just been running a little lite on landroids as of late.
>
> > > > > patience tex.
>
> > > > My guess is that things will pick up soon when a forthcoming scandal
> > > > hits. With all the recent stuff about Scientology and James Ray's
> > > > sweat lodge disaster, another Landmark scandal shouldn't be too far in
> > > > the future.
>
> > > Name one you can recall?
>
> > one i remember was when the leader of part of landmarks cult stuff in
> > dallas
> > anally raped a forum attendee he lured to his home.
>
> > does that count ?
>
> Didn't here about that one, Pat.
>
> I heard about what these "good" Christians did, though.
> ~~~
>
> Catholics are distinct from the rest of Christianity for their widespread
> acceptance of this type of behavior from their priests. I say acceptance
> because there has been no meaningful action to stop it.
> All four bullets mention a priests or parishes, = Catholic.
More nonesense.
There is not widespread acceptance of this behavior.
There was widespread ignorance of the truth.
The scandal has had its effect.
Attendance and fundraising are down.
Parishes are closing across the country.
The diocese of NH is under a court ordered agreement to take specific
actions to protect children.
This is overseen by by the State Attorney Generals office.
But your ignornace of the subject matter is noted.
>
> This wide brush attempt to redirect doesn't pass.
>
> I think you recognize not all Muslims are suicide bomber terrorists.
>
> Religion causes more strife than healing. [That is my blanket statement.]
>
> ~~~http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/
> ---- Hide quoted text -
Eldon
Darren Mack? How do you know he wasn't grooming his young daughter for
swinger clubs and resorts in Las Vegas and Mazatlan? Not that we know,
but since he liked to watch Charla getting banged in such places....
computeruser
He was a paid Communication Course leader and one of the leaders who
helped drive enrollment and over saw the recruitment of volunteer's
into the TMLP Team Management and Leadership program. It is similar to
the GSLP/IFLP/ILP which you are familiar with.
> If he was paid it wasn;t much.
None of them are.
> Name me another cult leader that murdered his wife and shot a judge?
> You were on staff, does that make youa cult leader?
> Mack wasn't even on staff.
>
Being a perpetual contractor doesn't make him any less representaive
of the tone set by the leadership.
>
>
> > Around this scandal there was also the way that the internet was swept for
> > references of the victim. This PR attempt to sweep it under the rug, was a
> > "scandal" bigger than the scandal of the crimal acts of a individual leader.
>
> > Saying nothing is akin to sanctioning the behavior.
>
> > Much in the same way the pedophile priests are one problem. The way the
> > catholic church has been known to move them to new parishes and continue to
> > allow them access to a flock is quite another problem.
>
> > It is like putting food out for vermin.
>
> a much bigger problem than Landmark.
> Don't you agree?
On this we can agree.
>
> > ~~~
>
> > [SNIP]
>
> > x- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
computeruser
Doing nothing is a way of accepting and sanctioning the behavior. It
is common knowledge that this behavior is frequent and stereo types
have emerged about priests. These stereo types have a strong
resemblance to reality.
There is this well known quote which makes the point:
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
nothing." (Edmund Burke)
> There was widespread ignorance of the truth.
> The scandal has had its effect.
> Attendance and fundraising are down.
> Parishes are closing across the country.
> The diocese of NH is under a court ordered agreement to take specific
> actions to protect children.
> This is overseen by by the State Attorney Generals office.
The point is they haven't kept their own house clean.
If their wasn't widespread history of child endangering the court or
AGs office wouldn't have cause.
This has nothing to do with the protestant christians Patrick likes
and supports and you know it.
Why don't you discuss their short comings?
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Tex
How do I know that he wasn't a reptilian living in a cavern?
What a dumb question, Eldon?
How do I know that monkeys aren't flying out of your ass as we
speak? ;-)
>
>
>
>
> > > Around this scandal there was also the way that the internet was swept for
> > > references of the victim. This PR attempt to sweep it under the rug, was a
> > > "scandal" bigger than the scandal of the crimal acts of a individual leader.
>
> > > Saying nothing is akin to sanctioning the behavior.
>
> > > Much in the same way the pedophile priests are one problem. The way the
> > > catholic church has been known to move them to new parishes and continue to
> > > allow them access to a flock is quite another problem.
>
> > > It is like putting food out for vermin.
>
> > a much bigger problem than Landmark.
> > Don't you agree?
>
> > > ~~~
>
> > > [SNIP]
>
> > > x- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Tex
then he was hardly a cult leader.
Cult leaders reap all the profits, right?
>
> > Name me another cult leader that murdered his wife and shot a judge?
> > You were on staff, does that make youa cult leader?
> > Mack wasn't even on staff.
>
> Being a perpetual contractor doesn't make him any less representaive
> of the tone set by the leadership.
You were a paid, full-time staff member for Landmark.
Were you representative of the "tone set by the leadership"?
Did you ever get the urge to kill your kid's mother or shoot a judge
while involved with Landmark?
Aren't you also representative of the tone?
Tex
The point is everyone has skeletons in their closets, CU.
Take Ayn Rand, the adulterous homewrecker, for example.
>
> If their wasn't widespread history of child endangering the court or
> AGs office wouldn't have cause.
>
> This has nothing to do with the protestant christians Patrick likes
> and supports and you know it.
>
> Why don't you discuss their short comings?
OK, thanks for asking. ;-)
And thanks for playing.
Is this serial killer reflecting the tone of the Lutheran leadership?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article538016.ece
A former church leader today dramatically confessed to carrying out
the BTK serial killings which terrorised Kansas for nearly 20 years.
Dennis Rader, 60, the one-time president of the church council at
Christ Lutheran Church and Boy Scout, admitted to 10 counts of
premeditated murder in the Wichita area between 1974 and 1991.
The unexpected guilty plea came on the day that father of two's trial
was due to begin for the torture killings.
"I had never strangled anyone before, so I really didn’t know how much
pressure you had to put on a person or how long it would take," he
told the court in describing his first killings in 1974, a couple and
two children. "The whole family just panicked on me so I worked pretty
quick."
Serena Nordstrup
All?
Sophomoricallly
Serena
patrick
i think its interesting that every time we start to discuss landmarks
rapes, murders and pillaging that
tex just seems to ignore it with "well if they do it then its ok if we
do it " state of mind of his and
starts going after the bad christians.
tex
Of course, it isn't surprising that you once again miss the point,
Pat.
I know you have some cognitive deficits, but let me see if I can walk
you through this one.
Some Christians do bad things.
Some Landmarkers do bad things.
The bad Chrisitians don't represent most Christians.
The bad Landmarkers don't represent most Landmarkers.
As for the "we" comment, since I've never been invloved in Landmark,
and stopped my involvement with est in the mid 80s, before the Forum
replaced est, I wouldn't be in the "we" category for Landmark. I have
gone to over 500 Catholic masses in the last ten years. It's a family
thing.
Yet I don't condone the clergy pedophilia. Truth is, most of the
priests and brothers I've met over the years have been good men.
From an ego standpoint, there are similiarlities between Christian
clergy and Landmark seminar leaders, though.
And there is a similiar devotion to their respective organizations.
Neither group promotes their members and leaders to be rapists and
murderers though.
Did I lose you??? ;-)
patrick
lets see :)
> Some Christians do bad things.
i would say most christians do bad things.
> Some Landmarkers do bad things.
landmarkers do have the tendency to group together , while ignoring or
slighting other people.
an example of this would be going to a party as i have on a couple
of occasions. the droids all hang together and dont seem to engage
the party unless of course u consider blathering jargon to each
other and saying "it doesnt mean anything" at the end of the paragraph
with laughs and giggles participating.
> The bad Chrisitians don't represent most Christians.
this is interesing comment. if u were to consider bad christians
as those that commit muders, lie, cheat and steal then
u may have a slightly smaller number of them than if u
consider bad chrisitans just those that dont practice anything
that is remotly considerered chrisitan.
which has the higher do u t hink think tex ?
> The bad Landmarkers don't represent most Landmarkers.
i believe when the landmarks leaders are killing people
i believe it is in fact represenative of landamark.
i know u will want to chide me for saying this but their statement
"life is empy and meaningless" taken literally from the
mother church's behavior and i do believe it is respresentative.
i believe whenever a religious group teaches that "humans
have no value, that this opens up possibilities in the minds
of some of the radical members.
do u believe tex that landmark has some radical members ?
>
> As for the "we" comment, since I've never been invloved in Landmark,
> and stopped my involvement with est in the mid 80s, before the Forum
> replaced est, I wouldn't be in the "we" category for Landmark. I have
> gone to over 500 Catholic masses in the last ten years. It's a family
> thing.
i dont understand why u dont get it but landmark and est is very
very similar tex. i dont get it why u dont get it.
> Yet I don't condone the clergy pedophilia. Truth is, most of the
> priests and brothers I've met over the years have been good men.
> From an ego standpoint, there are similiarlities between Christian
> clergy and Landmark seminar leaders, though.
> And there is a similiar devotion to their respective organizations.
> Neither group promotes their members and leaders to be rapists and
> murderers though.
>
> Did I lose you??? ;-)
do u believe that landmarkers in general have a strong sense of
right and wrong ?
>
>
>
> > - Show quoted text -
analyze analyze analyze
tex
Could you rephrase that in English, Pat?
>
> > The bad Landmarkers don't represent most Landmarkers.
>
> i believe when the landmarks leaders are killing people
> i believe it is in fact represenative of landamark.
So you have a double standard then?
How about Army leaders, such as the Major who murdered those people
last week.
Is this indicative of the rest of the Army leadership?
>
> i know u will want to chide me for saying this but their statement
> "life is empy and meaningless" taken literally from the
> mother church's behavior and i do believe it is respresentative.
I took est, and I never once embraced the existential mantra that life
was "empty and meaningless."
I suppose some do.
>
> i believe whenever a religious group teaches that "humans
> have no value, that this opens up possibilities in the minds
> of some of the radical members.
>
> do u believe tex that landmark has some radical members ?
I'm not sure what you mean by "radical members," but I met plenty of
assholes, if that's what you mean.
Remember, I only stuck around for a couple of years.
By then I had become disillusioned by it.
>
>
>
> > As for the "we" comment, since I've never been invloved in Landmark,
> > and stopped my involvement with est in the mid 80s, before the Forum
> > replaced est, I wouldn't be in the "we" category for Landmark. I have
> > gone to over 500 Catholic masses in the last ten years. It's a family
> > thing.
>
> i dont understand why u dont get it but landmark and est is very
> very similar tex. i dont get it why u dont get it.
I'm well aware that it is essentially one and the same, Pat.
And if it were 26 years ago, I'd be a "we."
But I'm not involved at all anymore.
Not for 25 years.
>
> > Yet I don't condone the clergy pedophilia. Truth is, most of the
> > priests and brothers I've met over the years have been good men.
> > From an ego standpoint, there are similiarlities between Christian
> > clergy and Landmark seminar leaders, though.
> > And there is a similiar devotion to their respective organizations.
> > Neither group promotes their members and leaders to be rapists and
> > murderers though.
>
> > Did I lose you??? ;-)
>
> do u believe that landmarkers in general have a strong sense of right and wrong ?
Not much different than most people.
I did meet some people that used the "empty and meaningless" mantra to
make up their own rules, so to speak.
>
>
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> analyze analyze analyze- Hide quoted text -