Re: A.E. Van Vogt on erasure/discreation
computeruser
> On Nov 11, computeruser wrote:
> > On Nov 11, Eldon wrote:
>
> > > Interesting viewpoint.
>
> > >www.google.com/gwt/n?u=http%3A%2F%2Fvanvogt.www4.mmedia.is%2FPlattpro...
>
> > > One of the reasons why the book "Dianetics" impressed me was the fact
> > > that it had not one line of mysticism in it that I could detect. I
> > > didn't know, at that time, [editor John W.] Campbell had dissuaded
> > > Hubbard from putting any into it. You see previously I had met Hubbard
> > > in 1945; I had dinner with him and about a dozen other persons, and it
> > > became apparent to me that he was very mystically oriented. So when
> > > there was, later, not a line of that in the book I thought, by God,
> > > this has really got to be a good system, because it has already
> > > knocked that out of him!"
>
> > > Dianetics has since been "incorporated into the framework of
> > > Scientology, as an earlier phase you have to go through," according to
> > > van Vogt, but he remains uninterested in Scientology, because of its
> > > mystical/religious aspects. He retains faith in the principles of
> > > Dianetics, and is still president of the Californian Association of
> > > Dianetic Auditors. He recalls personal experiences using the system:
>
> > > My wife [E. Mayne Hull] had been ill, and had had operations about
> > > every two years, starting almost within a year of our marriage, in
> > > 1939. She made her will at least six times during that period. When I
> > > talked to the doctors, every time they said, It looks like cancer. In
> > > 1951 there was another doctor that examined her, and said to me, We've
> > > got to watch out, that has all the sound of cancer.
>
> > > "But right in there she got some [Dianetic] auditing, and the problem
> > > all faded away just like it never was. She was not sick again, she
> > > didn't go to a doctor, until we went to a funeral of a friend who had
> > > died of cancer in Phoenix in 1970. On he way back she said, It's like
> > > the end of an era; and she burst into tears. One month later she had
> > > blood in her urine and they examined her and this time they said, It
> > > is cancer. The point is, it had been put aside somehow by the Dianetic
> > > thing. Dianetics is essentially based upon Freudian therapy, but Freud
> > > allowed the patient to freely associate, and he never concentrated
> > > upon one incident. Dianetics concentrated upon one incident, going
> > > through it again and again. When that was done, things seemed to fade
> > > away. Certain incidents that my wife ran seemed to be keyed to her
> > > health; clearly they were not erased, they were just put back, you
> > > might say, into some slot."
>
> > Is he the only one that you are aware of who accepts aspects of
> > Dianetics and rejects Scientology in total?
>
> > Am I accurately summarizing his position In Your Opinion?
>
> The California Dianetic Auditors' Association existed into the 1970s
> until Scientology harassed them out of existence. Frank (Sarge)
> Gerbode still teaches Traumatic Incident Reduction, which is an
> adaptation of Dianetics.
>
> http://www.tir.org/metapsy/frank/
>
> He doesn't talk about it much, but he ran the Scienotlogy mission in
> Palo Alto for a number of years until they harassed him out of
> business around 1982. Nice guy.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Do you know if Peter Monk or Mike Mauer was part of this auditors'
association?
Looking back at what Werner Erhard tapped in to; it seems like
Auditing and some elements of a commucication course, C0$ was offering
in the late 1960's, were what interested him the most. The specifics
of what Mike Mauer and Peter Monk did while working for Werner is not
fully known to the public.
Around the time Werner met (1967) and worked with these two he had
gone through the marathon sessions (18 hour days, for 4 days) at the
Enlightment Entensives put on by Charles Berner (Abilitism). Berner
was a former Scientologist and declared Fair Game by L Ron, for
Squirreling the tech, and whatever the other trumped up charges there
were, for competitors.
***
This from the archive is limited to Mike Mauer and Peter Monk; and
their relationship with Werner Erhard:
From: computeruser
Newsgroups: alt.fan.landmark
Subject: Mike Mauer and Peter Monk
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004
Mike Mauer and Peter Monk
From:
http://www.forumgrads.org/Werner6.htm
"Sixth and last in a series of articles on Werner's Sources based on
Werner
Erhard by W. W. Barltey III"
"In April 1969, Werner resigned from Parents Magazine to become a
division
manager for the Grolier Society.
Two years before the founding of est, Werner's friend Mike Maurer
learned
about Scientology. Mike introduced Scientology member Peter Monk and
Werner.
Although he knew nothing about Scientology, Werner agreed to have a
Scientology communication course presented to his staff at Grolier.
His
conclusion--"The course was brilliant."
Werner then read several books by Ron Hubbard and took courses at the
Scientology organization progressing through five Scientology levels."
**********************************************
and from:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/door2.html
"A Door to Door Mind Salesman
by Stephen Pressman
from the book Outrageous Betrayal published by St. Martin's Press
Copyright © 1993 Stephen Pressman
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even as he continued to explore with Erhard the intricacies of
Scientology,
Peter Monk read with curiosity a local newspaper ad in the fall of
1970 for
a lecture that was to be given about a program called Mind Dynamics.
He tore
out the ad and showed it to Erhard, who instantly seemed interested.
Mind
Dynamics, as it turned out, was about to lead to a much more rewarding
opportunity than Scientology for an ambitious and charismatic salesman
named
Werner Erhard.
Launched in the Bay Area only a few months earlier, Mind Dynamics was
the
hybrid creation of Alexander Everett, a former English schoolmaster
whose
own fascination with mind-cure principles had begun in the 1950s, when
he
worked in Kansas City for one of the Unity Schools of Christianity, a
mind-cure offshoot. From there Everett had wandered down to Texas,
where he
found work as an assistant principal at an exclusive private school in
Fort
Worth. It was in Texas that Everett ran across a man named Jose Silva
who
years earlier had concocted something called Mind Control that
purported to
teach its adherents over the course of four twelve-hour sessions how
to
relax and harness the power of their minds. By controlling the brain's
alpha
waves, Mind Control held out the promise of extraordinary results,
from
waking up without an alarm clock to ridding the body of dangerously
addictive habits. "
*************************************************
Peter Monk is mentioned on this page as being around Harry Palmer's
Avatar
Courses:
http://www.scientology-kills.org/avatarpg1.htm
"It sounded fair enough to me, so I signed up with about 20 other
people.
Just about all were former Scientologists, including a number of local
luminaries. One was Peter Monk, the man who had first introduced
Werner
Erhard to Scientology shortly before Erhard developed the est course.
"
************************************************
Eldon
Not really. I do know that they were Freezone Scientology enthusiasts.
>
> Looking back at what Werner Erhard tapped in to; it seems like
> Auditing and some elements of a commucication course, C0$ was offering
> in the late 1960's, were what interested him the most. The specifics
> of what Mike Mauer and Peter Monk did while working for Werner is not
> fully known to the public.
>
> Around the time Werner met (1967) and worked with these two he had
> gone through the marathon sessions (18 hour days, for 4 days) at the
> Enlightment Entensives put on by Charles Berner (Abilitism). Berner
> was a former Scientologist and declared Fair Game by L Ron, for
> Squirreling the tech, and whatever the other trumped up charges there
> were, for competitors.
The Enlightenment Intensive is based on a dyad Zen process. It's very
much like the Training Routines used in Scientology on the basic
Communication Course, and gets people higher than a kite (if you call
that a "breakthrough"). Berner helped Hubbard develop that stuff, and
should have been lauded rather than vilified. His stuff is still used
today, and is not confidential at all.
Hari Palmer mixed the dyad thing with affirmations for his Source List
and Reality Creation List exercises. There's something similar in
Landmark, I believe. I remember that when I took Lifespring, some
silly girl spent a few minutes shouting "What do you want?" at me, at
the top of her voice without waiting for any response. What a bore.
qt2t...@yahoo.com
List
and Reality Creation List exercises. There's something similar in
Landmark, I believe. I remember that when I took Lifespring, some
silly girl spent a few minutes shouting "What do you want?" at me, at
the top of her voice without waiting for any response. What a bore."
What a bore?
Telling comment; like your perspective is so self-absorbed that you
think everything is for your entertaniment or benefit.
It was her time to explore the exercise and instead of supporting her
as her dyad partner you're sitting there judging that she is boring
YOU.
Eldon
Er, no, at the time, she was running it on ME. I also returned the
favor and asked her that question, but did it in a softer tone of
voice, and checked to see whether she might have an answer.
qt2t...@yahoo.com
Then I apologize for jumping to the conclusion but it does beg the
question as to what the proper way to do the exercise is.
You'd think that if everyone else in the room were doing it softly
while she's yelling, she'd stick out like a sore thumb and an
assistant would come over and help make a correction.
Or that you'd intervene and say, "I don't think this is how we are
supposed be doing it. Let's call someone over and consult with them."
Wayne
> You'd think that if everyone else in the room were doing it softly
> while she's yelling, she'd stick out like a sore thumb and an
> assistant would come over and help make a correction.
>
> Or that you'd intervene and say, "I don't think this is how we are
> supposed be doing it. Let's call someone over and consult with them."
Maybe something about Eldon invites shouting.
A proper correction might have been to take him outside and kick his ass
around the schoolyard and in that fashion set the world in better order.
Opportunity missed.
qt2t...@yahoo.com
> Maybe something about Eldon invites shouting.
>
> A proper correction might have been to take him outside and kick his ass
> around the schoolyard and in that fashion set the world in better order.
>
> Opportunity missed.
LOL! Wayne, sometimes you're really bad but I couldn't help laughing
anyway. At least when you're bad it's always entertaining.
Eldon
> On Nov 12, 12:39 pm, Eldon <EldonB...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 12, 8:24 pm, "qt2th...@yahoo.com" <qt2th...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > "Hari Palmer mixed the dyad thing with affirmations for his Source
> > > List
> > > and Reality Creation List exercises. There's something similar in
> > > Landmark, I believe. I remember that when I took Lifespring, some
> > > silly girl spent a few minutes shouting "What do you want?" at me, at
> > > the top of her voice without waiting for any response. What a bore."
>
> > > What a bore?
>
> > > Telling comment; like your perspective is so self-absorbed that you
> > > think everything is for your entertaniment or benefit.
>
> > > It was her time to explore the exercise and instead of supporting her
> > > as her dyad partner you're sitting there judging that she is boring
> > > YOU.
>
> > Er, no, at the time, she was running it on ME. I also returned the
> > favor and asked her that question, but did it in a softer tone of
> > voice, and checked to see whether she might have an answer.
>
> Then I apologize for jumping to the conclusion but it does beg the
> question as to what the proper way to do the exercise is.
Maybe not to do it in a group of 150 people (split into dyads), after
a minute of instruction from one arrogant group leader, for about five
minutes. That asshole had already scapegoated one woman, right at the
beginning, by ordering her to collect a refund check and leave -- a
cheap trick when I reflected on it, and something Lifespring did EVERY
time, just to intimidate people.
How nice that they're out of business now, at least in the US.
Tom Booth
Dianetics" DVD.
I thought, all in all, that it was a good overview.
One thing, though, that I was a little puzzled about, was the absence
of any reference or instruction in either the film or the accompanying
booklet to the induction of "reverie". (i.e. when I count from 1 to 7
your eyes will close... {eyelids flutter and eyes close
involuntarily).
I've done a little auditing and have seen this phenomenon first hand
(the involuntary fluttering of the eyelids) and I don't believe that
this is something that could be faked. Hubbard states that it is the
signal that the person has entered "optimum reverie".
In the DVD that step is skipped completely without so much as a
mention and proceeds directly to "installing the canceler" which, as I
understand it is something that should be done AFTER reverie is
established.
I did notice in a footnote in Dianetics that mention is made that the
counting is not absolutely necessary, however, much more emphasis is
put on the eye fluttering during the counting as the signal that
optimum reverie has been established.
Anyway, I do tend to agree that keeping things within the bounds of
what can be established scientifically was a strong point of Dianetcs
and the abandonment of that stand is what has sent Scientology off the
rails.
Since you brought this up Eldon, I'd be interested in hearing your
personal opinion about Dianetics, more or less as it existed (or
exists) independent of Scientology.
I remember when first going to a Scientology Mission to ask about
Dianetics that I was told it was "obsolete" and no longer used and
that what I really needed to do was to "get on the bridge"... So now,
in that respect, the appearance of this DVD also puzzles me.
If it is so "obsolete" why produce a DVD about it?
I was pleased though that the DVD was an actual How To with no strings
attached. That is, the suggestion made is to find a friend to co-audit
with not come to a Church to PAY for auditing.
Serena Nordstrup
> On Nov 12, 12:39 pm, Eldon <EldonB...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 12, 8:24 pm, "qt2th...@yahoo.com" <qt2th...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > "Hari Palmer mixed the dyad thing with affirmations for his Source
> > > List
> > > and Reality Creation List exercises. There's something similar in
> > > Landmark, I believe. I remember that when I took Lifespring, some
> > > silly girl spent a few minutes shouting "What do you want?" at me, at
> > > the top of her voice without waiting for any response. What a bore."
>
> > > What a bore?
>
> > > Telling comment; like your perspective is so self-absorbed that you
> > > think everything is for your entertaniment or benefit.
>
> > > It was her time to explore the exercise and instead of supporting her
> > > as her dyad partner you're sitting there judging that she is boring
> > > YOU.
>
> > Er, no, at the time, she was running it on ME. I also returned the
> > favor and asked her that question, but did it in a softer tone of
> > voice, and checked to see whether she might have an answer.
>
> Then I apologize for jumping to the conclusion but it does beg the
> question as to what the proper way to do the exercise is.
An LGAT with a "proper way"?
> You'd think that if everyone else in the room were doing it softly
> while she's yelling, she'd stick out like a sore thumb and an
> assistant would come over and help make a correction.
An LGAT which does "correction"?
> Or that you'd intervene and say, "I don't think this is how we are
> supposed be doing it. Let's call someone over and consult with them."
An LGAT with a "supposed"?
Wow!
Next they'll start calling it ~education~...
Simpatice
Serena