Mind Control Made Easy
jol...@yahoo.com
Mind Control Made Easy, or
How to Become a Cult Leader
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E
note the similarities between all of our favorite groups and
leaders.........
enjoy!
Eldon
with a high purpose and a low budget!
jol...@yahoo.com
common LGATs, etc.
If you liked it, feel free to spread the link around to others and see
how similar it is to other questionable groups.
Eldon
alt.clearing.avatar. This guy did an excellent job of providing
examples that apply to various groups. Just when I thought he might
have missed a trick or a specific angle... along it came.
I think I'll notify the various anticult webmasters too. This has a
good mix of satirical elements to counterbalance the "shadow side" of
the phenomenon.
its_my_dime
<jol...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162356993....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Very clever and well done for a "low budget" video.
On one viewing, however, it seems to put significant emphasis on group
pressure, but says very little about what makes a "cult" leader. Unless it
is about money, one of the abilities of a good leader, cult or otherwise, is
to get people who are smarter, more talented, better looking, better
managers or whatever to FOLLOW you and accept you and your ideas. I think
Werner had that ability...his early trainers were spectacular.
So this video may tell "what you need to do" but not how to get people to
follow and carry out your directives.
Eldon
True, it may be lacking in that regard. But it will certainly alert
potential recruits about what is going on, and warn them that what they
need to do is head for the nearest door and run.
its_my_dime
"Eldon" <Eldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1162405701.9...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
NONSENSE!
For lots of reasons.
No single group incorporates encompasses everything on that video....unless
you know a workshop where one participant shoots another through the head (I
think it is supposed to remind you of the Manchurian Candidate).
About 30 years ago there was a remarkably funny send-up of Werner and est in
a movie called "Semi-Tough" starring Burt Reynolds and others. The guru was
even called Friedrich Bismark I'm sure it had no effect on enrollment.
People are familiar with exaggeration for effect. You seem to consider
anyone who shows up at a guest seminar as an idiot. In my experience, most
are not idiots; they can think for themselves; they make informed
decisions. They enroll because they want to.
If est / Landmark had to survive only by recruiting people with room
temperature IQ's who could easily be manipulated, it would have never gotten
off the ground. On the other hand, there are a few who are easily
manipulated to enroll. I suspect that those who take the above video
seriously are among that group.
So, any potential recruit who would take the above video seriously would not
head for the door, he / she would be a prime candidate for enrollment.
Eldon
Fine. Let all the potential recruits watch it and see how many head for
the door. In fact, if Landmark truly believes in the "don't believe me"
credo espoused by the trainers per script, they should be showing this
video at the beginning of the course as ~education~ in how NOT to
become culted.
Why don't they do that? It might be an interesting PR gimmick. If I
were presenting a personal development course, I would do that... I
would show this video just to present an interesting challenge to
myself.
Just to make sure I wouldn't become Werner. Or Harry Palmer. Or worse
yet, L. Ron Hubbard. These cult leaders quite obviously fucked
themselves over, you see. I wouldn't wanna do that to myself. What was
that about "rackets"? Oh, yeah, I got that.
BTW, why do you think LE tried so desperately to suppress that France 3
video? Gotta clue?
HAPPYsamurai
> No single group incorporates encompasses everything on that video....unless
> you know a workshop where one participant shoots another through the head (I
> think it is supposed to remind you of the Manchurian Candidate).
i think everyone will agree with this one... theres different
demographics, there has to be some specialisation in the real world --
can please all the people all the time -- but by showing the gamut
available has a warning effect and a comedic entertaining spoof one as
well
>
> About 30 years ago there was a remarkably funny send-up of Werner and est in
> a movie called "Semi-Tough" starring Burt Reynolds and others. The guru was
> even called Friedrich Bismark I'm sure it had no effect on enrollment.
did you really expect a burt reynolds movie to have an impact on
anything at all [sorry burt]
did any body see him guest star in flipper and get beaten up by the
dolphin -- did it have an effct on crime?
> People are familiar with exaggeration for effect. You seem to consider
> anyone who shows up at a guest seminar as an idiot. In my experience, most
> are not idiots; they can think for themselves; they make informed
> decisions. They enroll because they want to.
and here is some more info for them to make the informed descision
with... that's win/ win isn't it mr covey?
> If est / Landmark had to survive only by recruiting people with room
> temperature IQ's who could easily be manipulated, it would have never gotten
> off the ground. On the other hand, there are a few who are easily
> manipulated to enroll. I suspect that those who take the above video
> seriously are among that group.
no i don't think that is LM's demographic do you -- in fact i think the
strongest tendency that gives a person their "cult fodder" rating is
not about IQ, tho there is usually more than one tendency involved,
sell them their dreams -- some people have some very intelligent
desires - world peace is one, cults are about using a persons
intelligence against them, in the same way con men use a persons greed
against them.... hence the cognitive dissonce etc
> So, any potential recruit who would take the above video seriously would not
> head for the door, he / she would be a prime candidate for enrollment.
well that last comment needs no further comment i'm sure
Dakota
> Let all the potential recruits watch it and see how many head for
> the door. In fact, if Landmark truly believes in the "don't believe me"
> credo espoused by the trainers per script, they should be showing this
> video at the beginning of the course as ~education~ in how NOT to
> become culted.
>
> Why don't they do that?
Eldon,
As someone who has participated in both est and the Landmark Forum, I
can say with certainty that, although they don't show this video, they
do process what people have "heard about" est/LF, or when people stand
up and say that their friends say trainers seek to "brainwash" them.
They actually welcome such sharing.
Cody
Dakota
I was pleased that, although it obviously focused more on the CoS, it
didn't give the Christians or the really deadly cults a break, either.
I think people are slowly starting to see how their own religions also
do some of this stuff, and that's a Good Thing. It may lead to healthy
internal changes in many faith groups.
Cody
computeruser
news:l852h.11933$dN4....@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com...
Newsgroups: alt.fan.landmark
Subject: OT: LifeStream
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004
http://www.cameronfreeman.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=ArticleList&Sectio...
Confessions of a Cult Leader
What I learned about getting the best of life while owning and operating a
personal growth company.
From 1987 to 1998, I worked with the founder and creator of the LifeStream
Experiential Basic Seminar, James (Jim) H. Quinn (1927-1998). Jim's motto,
"My life works in direct proportion to the commitments I make and keep", was
his mantra for personal success.
My Lifestream Experience
In October of 1987, I enrolled into The Lifestream Basic Seminar which was
held in Toronto, Ontario. Basic was conducted over 4 days; Thursday night,
Friday night, all day Saturday and all day Sunday. In Basic, I learned how
to get the best of life by experiencing and reflecting on various life
concepts such as trust, forgiveness, responsibility, win/win, intentions
equals results, and accountability.
I liked the program so much I bought the company in Toronto and by 1997 I
had expanded to 5 city centers which included, Toronto Ontario, Ottawa
Ontario, Vancouver BC, Columbus Ohio, and Jacksonville Florida. Over a
period of 11 years, I scheduled, planned, and organized more than 200
Lifestream programs and events.
During my years running Lifestream, I experienced many variations of the
human equation - people from all walks of life who taught me how complex
people really are, as well as, how much we are all very much alike. I was
often asked if Lifestream was a cult. This was due primarily to some of the
dramatic changes people would make as result of experiencing this 32 hour
seminar - this often threatened people who had not taken the course, didn't
understand it and we're being highly encouraged by the recent graduate to
take it. Many people would finish the course and go back into their lives
and make extraordinary changes that were very positive in nature. But, many
would keep coming back to the class, looking to rekindle that initial "warm
and fuzzy" feeling they got when the took the class for the first time. As a
result, many graduates kept in touch with one another forming a "Lifestream
alumni community" that at the best of times was fun and celebratory but at
the worst of times was incestuous, wrought with "needy" dysfunctional
attitudes. It is in this vein, that I have entitled this series of articles
"Confessions of a Cult Leader" mainly because most of time I did not feel
like I was the CEO of a personal development company but rather a cult
leader for the Lifestream Alumni.
I will state for the record, working with LifeStream founder, Jim Quinn, has
been a highlight in my life. His points-of-view, teachings, skills and
techniques for living life have been a tremendous inspiration to me. He was
truly a "centered man". Very little "ruffled" his feathers and in the 11
years that I knew him, I never saw him lose his "center". He was the "real
McCoy". That's why I've decided to publish my experience of the 4 days of
the LifeStream Basic Seminar, as taught by Jim Quinn, for those who care to
read it, know it and perhaps even experience it.
Note: It is important to remember that the LifeStream experience was
conducted in a large group setting (30 - 100 participants, depending on the
size of the class). I have modified the material presented from group
inter-active experiences to self-introspective exercises for the benefit of
the reader.
Cameron Freeman
Background
James H. Quinn was born in Washington state and served in the U.S. Corps of
Cryptographers in China during World War II. He worked in sales for JC
Penney Inc. in Los Angeles and opened a clothing store in California. In
1973, he founded LifeStream, an experiential training seminar company and
right up until his death in 1998 he introduced to tens of thousands of
people all over the world, how to get the best of life.
The roots of Lifestream and the experiential seminar movement goes back to
the late 1960's and a course called, Mind Dynamics founded by Alexander
Everett. Mind Dynamics was the major forerunner of most of the Large Group
Awareness Trainings.
Born in England, Alexander Everett arrived in America in 1962 and went to
Missouri. "Deciding that the Unity ministry was not his calling, he
(Alexander Everett) left Missouri in 1963 and went to Fort Worth, Texas,
where he had been invited to help establish a private boarding school. He
remained in Texas for seven years. In Texas, he not only helped set up the
Fort Worth Country Day School but more importantly, completed the work that
led to the founding in 1968 of Mind Dynamics, the experiential human
potential training organization that was to become the forerunner of est,
Lifespring, Actualizations, and several other human potential training
organizations that flourished in the 1970s and continue to do so in the 80s.
Alexander's Mind Dynamics grew out of the various paths of spiritual and
personal growth that he had been exploring since leaving England. He lists,
as the primary influences, Edgar Cayce's work, Theosophy, Rosicrucianism,
Egyptology, Silva Mind Control, and Unity. He knew when he put the Mind
Dynamics course together that, primarily, he wanted to develop a training
that dealt with the workings of the mind, and secondly, since we live in the
Aquarian Age, a mind sign, that he wanted to have the word "mind" in the
organization's name.
The four-day trainings, which were largely experiential, caught on rapidly
in California, where Alexander was soon being invited to present them. As a
result the headquarters of Mind Dynamics was moved to San Francisco in 1970.
Interest in the course, however, was not restricted to California. During
the four remaining years of the organization's existence, the course was
taught throughout the United States and in Europe and Australia.
Continuing his quest for knowledge, Everett journeyed in 1974 to Russia and
India to study and experience Eastern philosophy and religion. Returning
from his travels, he began teaching Success Dynamics. In 1977, he created
and started teaching Inward Bound, an activity that occupies most of his
time to this day. Everett's Inward Bound two-day seminar is devoted to
helping attendees enjoy personal growth and discover the genius within then.
Everett also presents his Love, Life and Light program annually. In 1989,
attendees from 16 countries participated in his Orcas Island presentation.
Mind Dynamics was a huge success and attracted William Penn Patrick's
attention. He had a network marketing sales organization called Holiday
Magic, which sold cosmetics. He also had a training organization known as
Leadership Dynamics. He bought Everett's training in 1970 intending to use
it as an additional training vehicle for his distributors. While Mind
Dynamics was a non-confrontational course in
self-hypnosis/centering/visualization like the Silva Method, the Leadership
Dynamics program was a hard hitting group encounter. The influences of both
trainings are found in the training organizations which followed.
William Penn Patrick's Leadership Dynamics training organization attracted
much attention in its methods according to a book called "The Pit, a group
encounter defiled" by Gene Church (out of print). The resulting lawsuits
pretty much shut down Leadership Dynamics as well as Mind Dynamics. The
Holiday Magic MLM was busted as a pyramid scheme. Penn Patrick died crashing
his 45-11620, N2872D P-51 Mustang (pictured left) at an airshow in
Sacramento, June 9, 1973.
When Leadership Dynamics and Mind Dynamics shut down, many of the
instructors went out on their own and were soon leaders in the human
potential movement that spread throughout California in the 1970s and,
later, across the country. They were:
- Jim Quinn founded Lifestream in 1973.
- Bob White, Randy Revell, Charlene Afremow, John Hanley founded
Lifespring in 1974.
- Werner Erhard, founded est in 1971 which was renamed "The Forum" and is
now known as Landmark Education.
- Bob White left Lifespring, went to Japan, and started a training
organization there called Life Dynamics.
- Randy Revell left Lifespring and founded the Context Trainings.
- Charlene Afremow joined Erhard's organization as a trainer. She later
left in a dispute and went back to Lifespring.
- Howard Nease founded Personal Dynamics.
- Thomas Willhite founded PSI World Seminars
- Stewart Emery worked for est and later founded Actualizations
Other influences on LGAT development include Napoleon Hill's "Think and Grow
Rich", the experiential exercises developed by National Training Labs (which
has its own share of controversy), the Esalen Institute, and Gestalt
Therapy.
Courage - A handout at the Lifestream Basic Seminar
Why is it that most men's lives are controlled by small and petty
circumstances? I am saddened as I watch people lose the good and the great
things that are within their reach, that could be theirs with but a little
act of courage.
The mediocre man, the average man, is the one I speak of here. He is the one
who has so little self-esteem that he cannot trust his own thoughts and
judgments, and who, in the final analysis, must rely on outside sources for
his decisions. This is the man who is ruled by the mob, or who accepts all
that he reads as the truth, and finally becomes like the mob. This is the
man who has some degree of success, only when he is caught upon the crest of
a wave that was generated by one of the few, exceptional self-directed
individuals.
This is the man who has a positive attitude for that moment he is in the
presence of positive individuals, but when left alone, falls to his negative
knees. This is the man who sells his birthright and the commitment to his
own thoughts for fear of what he thinks his neighbor might think. This is
the man who stands tall as he is prompted by the actions of the mob, but is
terrified of the silence of his own presence.
This is the man who follows and fears to lead. This is the man who hides his
deeds in the cloak of nobility, since his dishonesty prevents him from
dealing with truth and reality. This is the man who cries 'foul' when life
has passed him by. This is the man who is ruled by circumstances.
Strong men create circumstances which serve their needs and desires. If you
are a man of circumstance, the cure for this disease is courage.
Courage is the most beautiful of all human expressions. Courage, as I see
it, is an act in the face of fear. We only need courage when we are afraid,
which means that we need courage almost all of the time because we are
afraid of something almost all of the time.
I have discovered that fear becomes a coward when faced with but a small act
of courage, and further, that the muscle of courage will grow stronger with
continued use.
My advice to myself is...Do those things which you fear and keep doing them
until you are no longer afraid. Then you will become the master of your
fate.
I have studied the deeds of men both great and small. In this study there
appears to be many differences. But all the differences that count have one
single thing at their base - Courage!
Courage is that one ingredient that separates the strong from the weak, the
successful from the unsuccessful, and the great from the average. All the
things you desire in life have one common handle that is made for the hand
of the man of courage.
To be afraid is to be alive. To act against that fear is to be a Man!
Someone once said, "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees!
By William Penn Patrick
Serena Nordstrup
Interesting phrasing there: "process"...
> They actually welcome such sharing.
... and the segue: ~sharing~
Simpatice
Serena
Dakota
Serena Nordstrup wrote:
> Interesting phrasing there: "process"...
>
> > They actually welcome such sharing.
>
> ... and the segue: ~sharing~
Serena,
If you actually attend the LE Forum so you can have a meaningful
conversation with those of us who have, I'm almost willing to chip in
for one of those Christian cult de-programmers lauded here as "experts"
(who endlessly cite each other) if you feel you get "brainwashed."
Oh, wait--if you *are* brainwashed, you won't know! It will reside in
the domain of what you don't know that you don't know! Don't worry. I
have integrity. I'll let you know if it happens. Or we can designate
Hap to do the evaluation. And Eldon can write an article. This could
be a win-win!
Cody
Tex
"Dakota" <poodle...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1162447021....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
ROTFLMAO!!!
That was very good.
>
HAPPYsamurai
> Oh, wait--if you *are* brainwashed, you won't know! It will reside in
> the domain of what you don't know that you don't know! Don't worry. I
> have integrity. I'll let you know if it happens. Or we can designate
> Hap to do the evaluation. And Eldon can write an article. This could
> be a win-win!
its such a mire...
there's enough anti LMers who have taken the course here [do we need
more?] and i do belive [so far] S is intelligent enough to discus the
issues without having done the course
assuming the course is not about becoming a better landmarkian but
about becoming a better human
its not like we're discussing the shape of God.. in which case
different backgrounds would be an issue
we're discussing being human -- we're all qualified... tho i do
understand some of the language skills needed and psychological
concepts do require a bit of effort occasionally
******or is it totally impossible for humans to communicate about LM
without doing it?******
and belief creating reality and all -- if someone beieves its
impossible to communicate LM to a non customer/student then does that
belief create that reality
woooooo
would you know the truth about real communication from your own
asshole?
maybe there's room for werner to develop a new course?
the.... "how to do LM in such a way that you can communicate about it
with others" course....
because EVERYTHING is POSSIBLE with LANDMARK....
Serena Nordstrup
Dakota wrote:
> Serena Nordstrup wrote:
>
> > Interesting phrasing there: "process"...
> >
> > > They actually welcome such sharing.
> >
> > ... and the segue: ~sharing~
>
> Serena,
>
> If you actually attend the LE Forum so you can have a meaningful
> conversation with those of us who have, I'm almost willing to chip in
> for one of those Christian cult de-programmers lauded here as "experts"
> (who endlessly cite each other) if you feel you get "brainwashed."
Huh? Do you really think that ~landmark education~ would let me enrol
myself in some course with the stated aim of having them ~process~ me
so that I could have a meaningful ~conversation~? The rosenbergist
mantra that "it doesn't mean anything ...." etc does not promise
meaningfulness to me. I'd much rather have the meaningful discussion
without the risk of brainwashing or coming to despise meaning. And we
can do that right now. Why wait for the next brainwashing seminar?
Seize the day!
And then, perhaps I haven't paid enough attention to the more dramatic
side of things, but I hadn't really noticed the lauding of "those
Christian cult de-programmers" here. I don't even know which
de-programmers you meant to refer to. We'd better get that sorted out
before we make any sort of de-programming deal. Who knows, our tastes
in Christianity may differ somewhat...
> Oh, wait--if you *are* brainwashed, you won't know!
So the theory goes.
> It will reside in the domain of what you don't know that you don't know!
Foreknowledge might weaken the dominion over the domain. Maybe a
pre-anti-brainwash brainwash could solve this. Or a meme-inoculation.
> Don't worry. I have integrity.
Phew, You had me worried there. -- Tell me, where did you get that
integrity?
> I'll let you know if it happens. Or we can designate
> Hap to do the evaluation. And Eldon can write an article. This could
> be a win-win!
A ~conversation for enrolment~, huh? Just like so many another: all
roads lead to the ~forum~, which will resolve all doubts and cure all
perceived shortcomings, all in a process so mysterious and secretive
that we dare not speculate how it might happen... <sigh>. Honestly,
Cody, I once thought better of you.
Simpatice
Serena
computeruser
Newsgroups: alt.fan.landmark
dunkirk
Dakota wrote:
Blah, blah, blah, blah
Photo of Cody:
http://psychotherapyclothing.com/images/thumb_w_brainwashed.png
Tex
http://internetarguing.ytmnd.com/
"dunkirk" <barr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1163068550.7...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Dakota
Serena Nordstrup wrote:
> Dakota wrote:
> > If you actually attend the LE Forum so you can have a meaningful
> > conversation with those of us who have, I'm almost willing to chip in
> > for one of those Christian cult de-programmers lauded here as "experts"
> > (who endlessly cite each other) if you feel you get "brainwashed."
>
> Huh? Do you really think that ~landmark education~ would let me enrol
> myself in some course with the stated aim of having them ~process~ me
> so that I could have a meaningful ~conversation~? The rosenbergist
> mantra that "it doesn't mean anything ...." etc does not promise
> meaningfulness to me. I'd much rather have the meaningful discussion
> without the risk of brainwashing or coming to despise meaning. And we
> can do that right now. Why wait for the next brainwashing seminar?
> Seize the day!
OK, so I completed the training and judged it to be of value, and
you've made a decision that you're closed to it and only open to
criticizing those who say they judged it to be of value.
I can't undo the fact that I've participated, and you're not going to
participate, so there really isn't any meaningful conversation for us
to have at this point.
> And then, perhaps I haven't paid enough attention to the more dramatic
> side of things, but I hadn't really noticed the lauding of "those
> Christian cult de-programmers" here. I don't even know which
> de-programmers you meant to refer to. We'd better get that sorted out
> before we make any sort of de-programming deal. Who knows, our tastes
> in Christianity may differ somewhat...
I'll bet they do.
> > Oh, wait--if you *are* brainwashed, you won't know!
>
> So the theory goes.
>
> > It will reside in the domain of what you don't know that you don't know!
>
> Foreknowledge might weaken the dominion over the domain. Maybe a
> pre-anti-brainwash brainwash could solve this. Or a meme-inoculation.
Maybe so.
> > Don't worry. I have integrity.
>
> Phew, You had me worried there. -- Tell me, where did you get that
> integrity?
You know, it was just one of those unexpected gifts.
> > I'll let you know if it happens. Or we can designate
> > Hap to do the evaluation. And Eldon can write an article. This could
> > be a win-win!
>
> A ~conversation for enrolment~, huh? Just like so many another: all
> roads lead to the ~forum~, which will resolve all doubts and cure all
> perceived shortcomings, all in a process so mysterious and secretive
> that we dare not speculate how it might happen... <sigh>. Honestly,
> Cody, I once thought better of you.
The Forum will *not* resolve all doubts and cure all perceived
shortcomings. I *can* promise you that. If you're not interested in
it, don't do it.
Let's talk about the experience of attending Harvard Law School. I'm
sure we can come to a deep understanding of what that experience must
be like so we can actually have a conversation like 2 people who
completed a course of study there. I'm sure talking about it or
watching snippets of classes on video and reading a book about it will
tell us as much as someone who actually experienced it. What a great
idea. We can memorize the jargon and even sound like we know something
about it.
Cody
Tex
Unfortunately Cody, trying to have a discussion with certain people here is
like talking to a wall.
Certainly, non-participants can talk about what they see, what is so.
Landmark's business plan is there for everyone to see.
They use participants to sell their products, and they use seminars that
participants have paid for to "coach" and encourage them to proselytize for
Landmark. No one denies that this is true.
Some of the participants talk in a psycho-babble jargon that turns off
freinds and family members. Some of the participants talk incessantly and
annoyingly about all the wonderful things that have happened to them since
they took Landmark courses.
It sounds an awful lot like this to some, as well as me.
From the Machurian Candidate
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056218/quotes
"Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being
I've ever known in my life."
One can see where people could deduce that Landmark has somehow
"brainwashed" people into parroting "killer shares" that "touch, move and
inspire."
I always wondered why a handful of people sounded this way. I wouldn't say
everyone, but a selct few "true believers." Most sounded like they were
trying to convince themselves as well as others that they had found the
"answer."
Now, you and I can discuss the drawbacks and merits of the programs from
the context of having seen the operation from the inside.
I still stand by the claim that the est Training was valuable for me and
most everyone I know who took the course.
When I took the course I didn't know about their business practices or
Werner himself. I enjoyed the est Training. Didn't like how they ran their
business. Still don't. The fact that people here or elsewhere don't approve
of such an opinion doesn't negate my experience of it, both positive and
negative.
Some people live their life based on a consensus of opinion. That's their
prerogative.
Dakota
Tex wrote:
> "Dakota"
> Unfortunately Cody, trying to have a discussion with certain people here is
> like talking to a wall.
> Certainly, non-participants can talk about what they see, what is so.
Yes, they can. anti-cult perspective.
> Landmark's business plan is there for everyone to see.
> They use participants to sell their products, and they use seminars that
> participants have paid for to "coach" and encourage them to proselytize for
> Landmark. No one denies that this is true.
Yes, their business model requires word-of-mouth enrollment.
> Some of the participants talk in a psycho-babble jargon that turns off
> freinds and family members. Some of the participants talk incessantly and
> annoyingly about all the wonderful things that have happened to them since
> they took Landmark courses.
>
> It sounds an awful lot like this to some, as well as me.
Yes, when I hear the jargon being *gushed* I do think "gag me."
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056218/quotes
> "Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being
> I've ever known in my life."
>
> One can see where people could deduce that Landmark has somehow
> "brainwashed" people into parroting "killer shares" that "touch, move and
> inspire."
Yeah, the old sales paradigm!!!
> I always wondered why a handful of people sounded this way. I wouldn't say
> everyone, but a selct few "true believers." Most sounded like they were
> trying to convince themselves as well as others that they had found the
> "answer."
Yes, there are zealots. est isn't immune!
> Now, you and I can discuss the drawbacks and merits of the programs from
> the context of having seen the operation from the inside.
> I still stand by the claim that the est Training was valuable for me and
> most everyone I know who took the course.
> When I took the course I didn't know about their business practices or
> Werner himself. I enjoyed the est Training. Didn't like how they ran their
> business. Still don't. The fact that people here or elsewhere don't approve
> of such an opinion doesn't negate my experience of it, both positive and
> negative.
I wasn't crazy about the business model myself. I certainly wasn't
inspired to go on staff. And yes, the people here don't negate my
experience at all in my own mind. I was surprised to see the venomous
attacks. In fact, I probably would have just ignored the group except
that people immediately started name-calling when I first posted. That
intrigued me. I wanted to understand why that was happening. I've
never stood out in newsgroups, and I was posting back when there was no
web!
> Some people live their life based on a consensus of opinion. That's their
> prerogative.
Yes, it is. Interesting that they choose the ignorance of public
opinion over the more than 90 per cent positive opinion of actual
participants. In fact, it's like they are conducting a witch-hunt, and
overlooking unbelievably destructive cults while they try to take out
organizations that actually help people.
Cody
Tex
At least here, the mindset of many of the participants on the group is to
angrily attack the pro side.
I'd say this is because they are angry at Landmark, and you and even "Tex"
represent the closest thing to Landmark to attack.
Chris is upset at my posting style. Yet he has attacked Bruno and now you.
If it weren't for the detractors also trying to chase me away with their
vitriolic attacks I would have had my say and left. The more they atack,
the more I am prone to stay.
Chris says he has taken Landmark. He does use the anti-cult jargon rather
liberally though, making me wonder if he is simply prone to "brain washing."
Eldon and Happy are more interested in Avatar, but few people care about
that, so entering the Landmark discussion is probably more lively and
interesting for them. Enric(Claigari) has taken est and assisted for Werner
personally. Computeruser has taken some courses. Both are more dispassionate
and objective about the subject than some of the others.
The vitriol spewed by Ellen, Glam, Dunkirk, Markus, Chris, Estie and
occassionally even Serena indicates to me that these people were either
deeply hurt by Landmark or someone who participated in Landmark, or that
they are just nasty, unreasonable people by their very nature.
You have exhibited a great deal more patience than I.
On this forum, propaganda and heated exchanges rule the day. If there is a
DMZ, it is a small one. ;-D
>
> Cody
>
chris
news:Adudnb3BLM5W3M7Y...@adelphia.com...
> Unfortunately Cody, trying to have a discussion with certain people here
> is like talking to a wall.
You can relate to that too?
You sure you're not my ideal tantric bride-in-waiting?
I checked with Rick but he's already taken.
I'm free Wednesdays................. how much are flights to Boston? I
always wanted to meet the guys in the Cheers bar.
Chris
chris
> At least here, the mindset of many of the participants on the group is to
> angrily attack the pro side.
> I'd say this is because they are angry at Landmark, and you and even "Tex"
> represent the closest thing to Landmark to attack.
Better than angrily attacking anti-cultists for the sake of 'fun' and
'turning the tables' Tex.
That's just sadism.
You into BDSM? I could see that...............
Attacking Landmark for those of us who see the harm it does to people is a
logical and sensible thing to do, and you are an incorrigible old
unreformable estie.
Some people just can't change and undo their programming.
> Chris says he has taken Landmark.
Yup, London, Sept/Oct 1998, Forum led by David somethingorother from
Florida, looked a lot like a junior Tony Robins. Advanced Course Dec 1998,
also London, led by the Aussie Forum Leader also called David
somethingelseIforget (looked a bit like Chris Reeves). 23 December 1998 I
got on a plane to spend Xmas with my cousins in New Zealand and in the next
seat was another Aussie from my Forum on his way home for Christmas .
> He does use the anti-cult jargon rather liberally though, making me wonder
> if he is simply prone to "brain washing."
LOLOL. You got me there, I stayed till 2001 before I was deprogrammed ;-)
(not by Rick).
> Eldon and Happy are more interested in Avatar, but few people care about
> that, so entering the Landmark discussion is probably more lively and
> interesting for them. Enric(Claigari) has taken est and assisted for
> Werner personally. Computeruser has taken some courses. Both are more
> dispassionate and objective about the subject than some of the others.
>
> The vitriol spewed by Ellen, Glam, Dunkirk, Markus, Chris, Estie and
> occassionally even Serena indicates to me that these people were either
> deeply hurt by Landmark or someone who participated in Landmark, or that
> they are just nasty, unreasonable people by their very nature.
No, we just like to warn people from wasting time and money on a potentially
damaging scam, and you like to attack us for doing that.
Shame on you. But you do provide evidence on afl of the effect the ~tech~
has on folks, so I forgive you as long as your behaviour here goes on
supporting my case ;-)
Chris
Tex
"chris" <ch...@veggies.org> wrote in message news:45535e09.0@entanet...
You have it wrong Chris. If I am attacking you it is for the ad hominems you
hurl at Bruno, Dakota or me.
I warn people about the programs, the nature of the dependencies people have
on them (seminar junkies) and the push for people to sign up their friends
to continue the "transformation of the world."
That's manipulative bullshit.
But I don't have to attack the participants and call them names to make that
point.
Do you think that calling people names that disagree with you some how
stengthens you mission to warn people, or simply gets them to dig in their
heals further against what you say, shutting off the "listening?"
chris
That's a laugh, since I'm attacking you for *your* ad hominens.
> I warn people about the programs, the nature of the dependencies people
> have on them (seminar junkies) and the push for people to sign up their
> friends to continue the "transformation of the world."
>
> That's manipulative bullshit.
>
> But I don't have to attack the participants and call them names to make
> that point.
How do you think attacking the anti-cutists (who you agree with that the
programmes are 'manipulative bullshit') furthers your making of 'that
point'?
> Do you think that calling people names that disagree with you some how
> stengthens you mission to warn people, or simply gets them to dig in their
> heals further against what you say, shutting off the "listening?"
I ask you the same thing, how does your attaciking the anti-cultists
strengthen your pov, other than getting them riled and not listening to you?
Chris
Tex
"chris" <ch...@veggies.org> wrote in message news:455374cd.0@entanet...
It doesn't make any point whatsoever, now does it?
I am not on a mission to destroy or to save Landmark.
That's the "holy" mission of others here.
I'm still quite surprised they've lasted this long. I was sure that a few
years after Werner fled the country in shame that they would have folded up
their tents and disappeared. I was wrong.
>
>> Do you think that calling people names that disagree with you some how
>> stengthens your mission to warn people, or simply gets them to dig in
>> their heals further against what you say, shutting off the "listening?"
>
> I ask you the same thing, how does your attaciking the anti-cultists
> strengthen your pov, other than getting them riled and not listening to
> you?
Again Chris, I'm not on a mission, you are.
My point of view remains largely unchanged. It won't have an impact on those
that also have a strong POV.
I have found it interesting to hear the point of view of those that took the
courses or assisted, like you, Larry, Enric, Estie, Fred, Siam, Gerald,
Patrick, Dakota, Bruno, Computeruser etc.
For the longest time, the most disgruntled est/Landmark attendee I knew was
me.
I left rather abruptly mid way through my GSLP. (I was tossed on the twice
late rule)
It was a relief. If not tossed, I was going to quit. I had seen enough
Chris.
dunkirk
Tex wrote:
> The vitriol spewed by Ellen, Glam, Dunkirk, Markus, Chris, Estie and
> occassionally even Serena indicates to me that these people were either
> deeply hurt by Landmark or someone who participated in Landmark, or that
> they are just nasty, unreasonable people by their very nature.
Thanks for including me in with these people Tex. I consider it an
honor. But how 'bout capping it off with a label. How about "The
Anti-Cultists". In fact I do believe you did label us that in the past,
and I told you at the time that's a label I'm proud to accept. You're
not as nasty as Landmark is Tex; Landmark's labels against their
enemies are VERY nasty: arrogant, closed-minded, resigned, "full of
rackets", "full of stories", "has to be right", and how 'bout this one:
UNCOACHABLE!! LOL
You call us "nasty" Tex; but I'd say Landmark are the nasty ones;
besides these ugly labels look how nasty Art Schreiber is these days
sending out all kinds of letters threatening legal action. Now THAT'S
nasty!! He's a snarly old goat isn't he?
I laughed when you called us "unreasonable". Tex my boy, that's what
they tell you to be at Landmark, UNREASONABLE!! Right Dakota?
LOLOL
HAPPYsamurai
> Tex wrote:
> > "Dakota"
>
> > Unfortunately Cody, trying to have a discussion with certain people here is
> > like talking to a wall.
> > Certainly, non-participants can talk about what they see, what is so.
>
> Yes, they can. anti-cult perspective.
try not to see it as anti cult
so much as PRO positive cult
or PRO uncultable people
or PRO understanding group dynamics
or PRO -- I'll let you come up with your own
as you know we are just discussing the mechanisms that you yourself
percieve as being misused by some polygamous mormon types
in truth we all probably draw the LINE in different places... but even
you draw the line
--------the following is said with the usual net filter
disclaimers------------------
if i may be so forward... because you are so enthusiastic, it will take
a little more time for your understanding to grow and catch up before
the two become in BALANCE
this is not a put down of your understanding -- merely a recognition
of your enthusiasm and loyalty
HAPPYsamurai
> Yes, it is. Interesting that they choose the ignorance of public
> opinion over the more than 90 per cent positive opinion of actual
> participants. In fact, it's like they are conducting a witch-hunt, and
> overlooking unbelievably destructive cults while they try to take out
> organizations that actually help people.
>
> Cody
witch hunts?
it does LOOK that way doesn't it -- and i can't speak for anyone else
here
but to use the LM analogy
client -- my mother hates me
leader -- what do you MEAN your mother hates you? etc etc
how is it the client saw his mother's love as hate [this is a REAL LM
testimonial told me by a friend who was there by the way, and the
mother who he later saw loved him , had brought him there]
try and see how, like the mother, we MAY be motivated by good
intentions and how we may even have it right -- knowing what you do
about ericksons model that you are growing and that your perceptions
will change with maturation
forget that we are talking about landmark or something that you have an
emotional investment in
[feeling vulnerable-- i'll abuse you now, just kidding and i assume
you're past the NEED for that]
lets say werner is the 2nd coming of christ but the devil kidnaps him
and pretends to be him
is the organisation so ethically designed that it is above manipulation
by the devil?
big concept huh -- no practical application in the real world?
forget all the excuses about the devil doing this to every other org
and what right do we have to call for even higher standards from
werner's org than any other
consider the TOP line
consider the bottom line
now you're in traffic and you've just been cut off ... do you wanna ice
cream?
bruno Tonon
You've hit it on the nail here Cody. Thats what I can't figure out.
That they are attacking an organisation that actually helps most
people.
Wonder how they got that all twisted up?????
Interesting??
cheers Bruno
>
> Cody
>
Tex
>
> Tex wrote:
>> The vitriol spewed by Ellen, Glam, Dunkirk, Markus, Chris, Estie and
>> occassionally even Serena indicates to me that these people were either
>> deeply hurt by Landmark or someone who participated in Landmark, or that
>> they are just nasty, unreasonable people by their very nature.
>
>
> Thanks for including me in with these people Tex. I consider it an
> honor. But how 'bout capping it off with a label. How about "The
> Anti-Cultists". In fact I do believe you did label us that in the past,
> and I told you at the time that's a label I'm proud to accept. You're
> not as nasty as Landmark is Tex; Landmark's labels against their
> enemies are VERY nasty: arrogant, closed-minded, resigned, "full of
> rackets", "full of stories", "has to be right", and how 'bout this one:
> UNCOACHABLE!! LOL
LOL!!!
Yes, uncoachable.
That line is one of the manipulative ploys Landmark uses.
Good observation on your part.
>
> You call us "nasty" Tex; but I'd say Landmark are the nasty ones;
> besides these ugly labels look how nasty Art Schreiber is these days
> sending out all kinds of letters threatening legal action. Now THAT'S
> nasty!! He's a snarly old goat isn't he?
I don't know, he sounds like a lawyer doing his job.
A friend of mine who sells some things on the internet was contacted by a
major automobile manfacturer and told he could not use their logo.
Copyright infringement. He was selling a T shirt that used the word Jeep.
Corporations do this kind of thing all the time.
Landmark had one guy take down his reprint on a web page of the Book of
Aphorisms by Werner
>
> I laughed when you called us "unreasonable". Tex my boy, that's what
> they tell you to be at Landmark, UNREASONABLE!! Right Dakota?
> LOLOL
Well save yourself the $450 then!! {;-D
Dakota
HAPPYsamurai wrote:
> Dakota wrote:
> > Tex wrote:
> > > "Dakota"
> >
> > > Unfortunately Cody, trying to have a discussion with certain people here is
> > > like talking to a wall.
> > > Certainly, non-participants can talk about what they see, what is so.
> >
> > Yes, they can. anti-cult perspective.
>
>
>
> try not to see it as anti cult
>
> so much as PRO positive cult
>
> or PRO uncultable people
>
> or PRO understanding group dynamics
>
> or PRO -- I'll let you come up with your own
I just call it as I see it. It's anti-LE and and categorizing LE as a
cult, and publishing anti-cult URLs. I've seen plenty of name-calling
and ad hominem attacks and no real effort to just "understand group
dynamics" here. I'm here as a fan of LE, which I consider valid. I'm
curious about people who are venomously against it.
> as you know we are just discussing the mechanisms that you yourself
> percieve as being misused by some polygamous mormon types
> in truth we all probably draw the LINE in different places... but even
> you draw the line
I don't see Mormonism as showing people the cultural brainwash--I view
it as establishing one. I view LE as showing the cultural brainwash to
people--just so they know it for what it is. Zealots exist everywhere,
and some of them are in LE. So what?
> --------the following is said with the usual net filter
> disclaimers------------------
> if i may be so forward... because you are so enthusiastic, it will take
> a little more time for your understanding to grow and catch up before
> the two become in BALANCE
>
> this is not a put down of your understanding -- merely a recognition
> of your enthusiasm and loyalty
You are enthusiastic and loyal to Jesus. It will take a little more
time for your understanding to grow and catch up before the two become
in BALANCE.
this is not a put down of your udnerstanding -- merely a recognition of
your enthusiasm and loyalty.
Cody
Dakota
It's automatic for you. I think you've been in the guru business too
long!
> lets say werner is the 2nd coming of christ but the devil kidnaps him
> and pretends to be him
>
> is the organisation so ethically designed that it is above manipulation
> by the devil?
It's a workshop (for Christ's sake). Do I have to question the
validity of every class in nursery, kindergarten, elementary, middle,
high, college, grad school, and every training course I've ever taken?
Do I really have to do a deep examination of all of them to meet some
criterion you've set in place?
Maybe my nursery school teachers were demonic manipulators! Why aren't
you ranting against nursery school?! Maybe kindergarten is a cult!!!
Maybe it's been infiltrated by the devil!
> big concept huh -- no practical application in the real world?
I tend to take what I get from classes and not get that philosophical
about them unless I'm the teacher who needs to design courses for
others. This was a class that taught me something useful. Nothing
more. I also liked my chemistry classes. Omigod! I must be
brainwashed! I need to go back and consider how my professors were
seeking to control my mind!
> forget all the excuses about the devil doing this to every other org
> and what right do we have to call for even higher standards from
> werner's org than any other
I thought it was a very well-designed course, and it was hands-down the
most carefully crafted to take care of people. College and even
nursery school weren't that attentive to my human needs.
> consider the TOP line
>
> consider the bottom line
>
> now you're in traffic and you've just been cut off ... do you wanna ice
> cream?
No, I make traffic a game. I guess who will try to cut in and then
make sure I give them a wide berth. They usually wave to me!!! LOL!!!
I get to brighten their day.
Cody
chris
news:4553b9ef$0$21086$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Bruno, you're an addict, addicts can't see their own addictions.
~Get it~?
> That they are attacking an organisation that actually helps most
> people.
Brainwashes most people.
> Wonder how they got that all twisted up?????
Must be the ~technology~ Bruno.
> Interesting??
Shameful, sad, disappointing, troubling, yes. 'Interesting', not at all.
Chris
> cheers Bruno
>
>
>>
>> Cody
>>
>
>
bruno Tonon
"chris" <ch...@veggies.org> wrote in message news:45543941.0@entanet...
No I don't however thank you for warning me . I will take it into account.
>
>> That they are attacking an organisation that actually helps most
>> people.
>
> Brainwashes most people.
>
>> Wonder how they got that all twisted up?????
>
> Must be the ~technology~ Bruno.
Nuh. There is more to it . I think it has something to do with
Ethics and honesty. Just my gut feel
>
>> Interesting??
>
> Shameful, sad, disappointing, troubling, yes. 'Interesting', not at all.
Funny Chris I fel the same way about some of the criticism that is
spouted here.
Curious how we have opposite views about our experiences.
I can accept you are pissed off and angry at LEC . There probably
are valid reasons from your point of view.
Can't see why you can't accept my experience, or Cody's
and Texe's and others.
Mostly what we have claimed is that we enjoyed the ride and
got something from it.
Didn't say it was for everybody, or that we even went out of
our way to recruit, because we saw through that bullshit
and we werent prepared to carry it out.
Is that too hard for you to accept.?????
You seem to be more agitated these days compared to when we
conversed last year?????
Have you been doing any other courses???
Just curious
cheers bruno
I wasn't too pleased with your personal criticism of me however thats okay
I forgive you.
I learn't that in Forum I think????
>
> Chris
>
>> cheers Bruno
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Cody
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
bruno Tonon
I don't know if I have understood the above paragraph but my experience of
the
genuine shares were that I felt they were genuine and thats why they were
valid.
Thats the power of Forum and thats where the therapeutics or catharsis took
place.
When people were parroting it sounded phony to me and I was bored stiff
and swithched off. I felt then they were attention seekers trying to look
more important than what they were.
Usually the Forum leader would finally find them out.
I also was enrolled when I heard someone share, and that helped me to
to decide to have a go at Forum.
I could see how it had changed the behaviour of one of my nephews for the
better.( I must add that the change in behaviour of my nephew was not
permanent
and that he slackened off and partly went back to his old ways much to my
disappointment.
However he is approachable to talk about it and he realises that he could
be behaving in a more positve way. ( That may demonstrate that whatever the
fix
may have been its certainly was not permanent.)
Had it not been for the share I probably may have stalled, and chickened
out to do the course.
I'm glad I took the chance and completed Forum.
cheers
Tex
I'm talking about the people in the ILP, or in my day the GSLP, who grab a
mike a a Special Intro and "share" some nonsense story about how life is now
wonderful after Landmark. MAny sound forced and contrived. some are
practiced over and over again.
That's why I used the Raymond Shaw quote form the Manchurian Candidate as an
example of what it might look like to outsiders.
Eldon
ROFLMAO!!!
You might also take into account that Kirstie Alley recently exposed
newly reduced bod clad in a bikini on the Oprah show... having
reportedly said that although Scientology fixed her cocaine addiction,
it couldn't help with her weight problem. So she switched to Jenny
Craig as her guru for that aspect of life.
Different strokes as they say ;-)
>
> Chris
chris
>>> That they are attacking an organisation that actually helps most
>>> people.
>>
>> Brainwashes most people.
>>
>>> Wonder how they got that all twisted up?????
>
>>
>> Must be the ~technology~ Bruno.
>
> Nuh. There is more to it . I think it has something to do with
> Ethics and honesty. Just my gut feel
Landmark is to 'Ethics and honesty' what Rumsfeld is to 'peace in Iraq'.
>>> Interesting??
>>
>> Shameful, sad, disappointing, troubling, yes. 'Interesting', not at all.
>
> Funny Chris I fel the same way about some of the criticism that is
> spouted here.
>
> Curious how we have opposite views about our experiences.
Not curious, sad.
> I can accept you are pissed off and angry at LEC . There probably
> are valid reasons from your point of view.
Yes, there are.
> Can't see why you can't accept my experience, or Cody's
> and Texe's and others.
Oh, I do 'accept' it, I just think you're all addicts, which is sad.
> Mostly what we have claimed is that we enjoyed the ride and
> got something from it.
> Didn't say it was for everybody, or that we even went out of
> our way to recruit, because we saw through that bullshit
> and we werent prepared to carry it out.
>
> Is that too hard for you to accept.?????
What's with the ?????? Bruno? Your hands shaking or something? Bad nerves?
Need some herbs to calm you down?
> You seem to be more agitated these days compared to when we
> conversed last year?????
Thanks for the concern. Maybe it's a projection of your own agitation?????
Just don't call me '~having an upset or breakdown~, OK ? ;-))
We didn't converse last year, it was 2/3 years ago.
I've toughened up that's all Bruno, the shit on afl hasn't gone away, you
and the other clones are still addicted, so I've stepped up my game.
Is that too hard for you to accept?
> Have you been doing any other courses???
>
> Just curious
You know what curiosity did to the cat.
Yes, I did loads of courses before Landmark, it's all well documented on
afl.
Now I just do regular courses for my work, by qualified educators, not
Landmark amateurs.
And don't go all 'ignorant' about my work now, you know what I do for a
living.
Chris
Tex
Chris is just a bitter, nasty guy that needs to make fun of those that don't
agree with him.
No point allowing him to egg you on.
This week he's called you a ingenue, hypochondriac and now an addict.
Angry and self-righteous, Chris knows it all.
"chris" <ch...@veggies.org> wrote in message news:4554b6a4.0@entanet...
Eldon
chris wrote:
> "bruno Tonon" <bto...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:45545be8$0$19406$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> >
> > "chris" <ch...@veggies.org> wrote in message news:45543941.0@entanet...
>
> >>> That they are attacking an organisation that actually helps most
> >>> people.
> >>
> >> Brainwashes most people.
> >>
> >>> Wonder how they got that all twisted up?????
> >
> >>
> >> Must be the ~technology~ Bruno.
> >
> > Nuh. There is more to it . I think it has something to do with
> > Ethics and honesty. Just my gut feel
>
> Landmark is to 'Ethics and honesty' what Rumsfeld is to 'peace in Iraq'.
Chris, just one question: What do you think of Byron Katie's Four
Questions and her "flip it" technique?
And you, Bruno?
I think that paradigm is a good gauge of projection at least, and a jog
toward transformation
Not to be overly picky, Bruno, but how does your wife rate your
lovemaking ability before and after est/Landmark? --- since you brought
up the topic in the first place.
chris
news:1163171497.6...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> chris wrote:
>> "Tex" <ritte...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:Adudnb3BLM5W3M7Y...@adelphia.com...
>>
>> > Unfortunately Cody, trying to have a discussion with certain people
>> > here
>> > is like talking to a wall.
>>
>> You can relate to that too?
>>
>> You sure you're not my ideal tantric bride-in-waiting?
>>
>> I checked with Rick but he's already taken.
>>
>> I'm free Wednesdays................. how much are flights to Boston? I
>> always wanted to meet the guys in the Cheers bar.
>
> ROFLMAO!!!
>
> You might also take into account that Kirstie Alley recently exposed
> newly reduced bod clad in a bikini on the Oprah show
Oh yuk, Diane Chambers was always my Sam's girlfriend of choice, not fat
Kirstie!
Sam once swept Diane off her feet at her flat revealing her beautiful arse
(don't you call them 'fannies'?) and I couldn't sleep for days ..........
Wasn't it great when Diane turned up years later on Frasier?
<hot flush coming, goes to lie down>
Chris
chris
>
> chris wrote:
>> "bruno Tonon" <bto...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
>> news:45545be8$0$19406$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> >
>> > "chris" <ch...@veggies.org> wrote in message news:45543941.0@entanet...
>>
>> >>> That they are attacking an organisation that actually helps most
>> >>> people.
>> >>
>> >> Brainwashes most people.
>> >>
>> >>> Wonder how they got that all twisted up?????
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Must be the ~technology~ Bruno.
>> >
>> > Nuh. There is more to it . I think it has something to do with
>> > Ethics and honesty. Just my gut feel
>>
>> Landmark is to 'Ethics and honesty' what Rumsfeld is to 'peace in Iraq'.
>
> Chris, just one question: What do you think of Byron Katie's Four
> Questions and her "flip it" technique?
Never done her work, I just post on things I have direct experience of, like
loopy Zen and mad Landmark.
Don't get me going on NLP or shamanism ;-)
> And you, Bruno?
>
> I think that paradigm is a good gauge of projection at least, and a jog
> toward transformation
Every time I hear the word 'transformation' or 'spirituality' I know I'm in
for the big sell.
Better to run a mile in the opposite direction than engage with a
transformed or enlightened person.
> Not to be overly picky, Bruno, but how does your wife rate your
> lovemaking ability before and after est/Landmark? --- since you brought
> up the topic in the first place.
I'm not Bruno, but tantric sex is *good* sex.
Chris
chris
> Bruno,
>
> Chris is just a bitter, nasty guy
Oooh, been promoted from JFL to Forum Leader now eh Tex?
Only a true Forum Leader uses insults like that, asshole ;-)
I can just see you mid-Atlantic between Forums on your laptop composing afl
abuse.............
> that needs to make fun of those that don't agree with him.
> No point allowing him to egg you on.
You suggesting our friend Bruno can't stand up for himself but needs your
~coaching~?
That's mean.
Or do you think he's too ~reactive~ to look after himself?
> This week he's called you a ingenue, hypochondriac and now an addict.
>
> Angry and self-righteous, Chris knows it all.
You know it Tex.
Takes one to know one.
Chris
bruno Tonon
>> "bruno Tonon" <bto...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
>> news:45545be8$0$19406$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> >
>> > "chris" <ch...@veggies.org> wrote in message news:45543941.0@entanet...
>>
>> >>> That they are attacking an organisation that actually helps most
>> >>> people.
>> >>
>> >> Brainwashes most people.
>> >>
>> >>> Wonder how they got that all twisted up?????
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Must be the ~technology~ Bruno.
>> >
>> > Nuh. There is more to it . I think it has something to do with
>> > Ethics and honesty. Just my gut feel
>>
>> Landmark is to 'Ethics and honesty' what Rumsfeld is to 'peace in Iraq'.
Nuh can't buy that one. Rumsfeld was a war monger. bad example.
>
> Chris, just one question: What do you think of Byron Katie's Four
> Questions and her "flip it" technique?
>
> And you, Bruno?
>
> I think that paradigm is a good gauge of projection at least, and a jog
> toward transformation
>
> Not to be overly picky, Bruno, but how does your wife rate your
> lovemaking ability before and after est/Landmark? --- since you brought
> up the topic in the first place.
I don't know where you get that idea about lovemaking and est/Landmark???
But if you really want to know I'm a very conservative Missionary position
man. Have lived in the Cloisters too long and willing to experiement at the
ripe
age of 75+
If I could be guaranteed another 25 years of orgasm I may get to the 100
mark.
Last year I was introduced to a book called " How to Make love all night
and drive a woman wild" by Barbara Keesling Ph.D You may know it being
a man of the world and living in "Paris"
Hopefully my kids will be able to make some use by reading it.
Hard to practice her techniques but a very practical manual which
everyone can understand.
If I was disciplined enough to practise Dr. Keesling's techniques and you
were
interested in my progress I could keep you up to date and tell you
how well I was doing.
I would recommend the book to you if you are at all interested.
The book was given to me by a retired Queenslander ( state down South) who
was
caught Skinny dipping on the back beach of Bridey Island near Calloundra.
There was no one on the beach except possibly some Sharks in the surf,
however a Police Patrol concerned with security issues ( I think the Ronald
Reagan Aircraft Carrier may have been docked in Brisbane on R+R 100 kms
away)
spotted him and the Sergeant was offended and charged him for nude bathing.
Thats the conservative thinking that exhists in some parts of Wasp State
Quensland, that a human being cannot swim in the surf all alone with no one
around for miles just because a member of the Police force is offended
by the human body. I don't know what he could see because the man was in
the Surf .
That conservatism seems to be also in this group when it comes to
Freedom of thought and expereince.
Wanting to stop people from looking outside their normal realm of
experience.
It seems to me that the bleaters here want you to work yourself to
death for the corporations without any fun or play on the side.
I believe in playing with work the last thing on a mind. In fact its a
necessary evil.
Forum was a play experience for me and I recommend it to anyone
that may be interested.
>>
>> >>> Interesting??
>> >>
>> >> Shameful, sad, disappointing, troubling, yes. 'Interesting', not at
>> >> all.
>> >
>> > Funny Chris I fel the same way about some of the criticism that is
>> > spouted here.
>> >
>> > Curious how we have opposite views about our experiences.
>>
>> Not curious, sad.
Sad for who??? Certainly not me!!!!!!
>>
>> > I can accept you are pissed off and angry at LEC . There probably
>> > are valid reasons from your point of view.
>>
>> Yes, there are.
>>
>> > Can't see why you can't accept my experience, or Cody's
>> > and Texe's and others.
>>
>> Oh, I do 'accept' it, I just think you're all addicts, which is sad.
Thanks for your concern Chris , but I don't think anyone of us are sad.
As I said before we enjoyed the ride!!!!!!
>>
>> > Mostly what we have claimed is that we enjoyed the ride and
>> > got something from it.
>> > Didn't say it was for everybody, or that we even went out of
>> > our way to recruit, because we saw through that bullshit
>> > and we werent prepared to carry it out.
>> >
>> > Is that too hard for you to accept.?????
>>
>> What's with the ?????? Bruno? Your hands shaking or something? Bad
>> nerves?
>> Need some herbs to calm you down?
Yes I do need something as I have recently had my Kidney stones blasted .
Not very nice I can tell you.
Regards the herbs my wife has recently got sucked in to Gotji Juice so since
she purchased it I'm drinking it.
I wanted to tell her all about the MLM and the exhorbitant price of the
product
but she was so excited about it, that I kept my mouth shut.
You can't allways be right in a relationship.
Its her choice and her time and she can find out for herself whether the
product
is of any value or benefit .
Meanwhile I am drinking .
Who knows it may be a valuable experience for her and she may get something
out
of it. On the other hand she may learn she has been duped and it was all a
waste
of time.
Time will tell.
Isn't life all about experiences and learning from our mistakes no matter
what
age we are.
Why would we want to stop that?????
>>
>> > You seem to be more agitated these days compared to when we
>> > conversed last year?????
>>
>> Thanks for the concern. Maybe it's a projection of your own
>> agitation?????
I am agitated and concerned having to make decisions about retiring,
finances
nephews going off the rails, and my own two kids overseas having a great
time
but still concerned for their safety.
My son who is in France somewhere and uncontactable has had his
credit card drained by some unscrupulous character. I am concerned for his
safety
as he has not called in as he usually does if he is short of monies.
Thats not pleasant when you don't know what is happening????
.
>>
>> Just don't call me '~having an upset or breakdown~, OK ? ;-))
>>
>> We didn't converse last year, it was 2/3 years ago.
>>
>> I've toughened up that's all Bruno, the shit on afl hasn't gone away, you
>> and the other clones are still addicted, so I've stepped up my game.
>> Is that too hard for you to accept?
No I am glad that things have been working out for you.
>>
>> > Have you been doing any other courses???
>> >
>> > Just curious
>>
>> You know what curiosity did to the cat.
Yes but it made life were interestsing and exciting. Remember the cat
had nine lives on his side.
>>
>> Yes, I did loads of courses before Landmark, it's all well documented on
>> afl.
I was thinking of after AFL.
>>
>> Now I just do regular courses for my work, by qualified educators, not
>> Landmark amateurs.
>>
>> And don't go all 'ignorant' about my work now, you know what I do for a
>> living.
I wasn"t enquiring about your living
Anyhow I'm glad all is well
cheers Bruno
Tex
"chris" <ch...@veggies.org> wrote in message news:4554f257.0@entanet...
> "Tex" <ritte...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:UpGdnQ0IEcdzKsnY...@adelphia.com...
>> Bruno,
>>
>> Chris is just a bitter, nasty guy
>
> Oooh, been promoted from JFL to Forum Leader now eh Tex?
> Only a true Forum Leader uses insults like that, asshole ;-)
>
> I can just see you mid-Atlantic between Forums on your laptop composing
> afl
> abuse.............
>
>> that needs to make fun of those that don't agree with him.
>> No point allowing him to egg you on.
>
> You suggesting our friend Bruno can't stand up for himself but needs your
> ~coaching~?
> That's mean.
>
> Or do you think he's too ~reactive~ to look after himself?
He's actually egging you on. Bruno is as sly as a fox.
I often think of the Saturday Night Live character, Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer,
when he posts.
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/91/91gcaveman.phtml
<begin quote>
Cirroc: [ stepping out] It's just "Cirroc", your Honor.. and, yes, I'm
ready. [ approaches the jury box ] Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm
just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your
scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes the honking
horns of your traffic make me want to get out of my BMW.. and run off into
the hills, or wherever.. Sometimes when I get a message on my fax machine, I
wonder: "Did little demons get inside and type it?" I don't know! My
primitive mind can't grasp these concepts. But there is one thing I do
know - when a man like my client slips and falls on a sidewalk in front of a
public library, then he is entitled to no less than two million in
compensatory damages, and two million in punitive damages. Thank you.<end
quote>
>
>> This week he's called you a ingenue, hypochondriac and now an addict.
>>
>> Angry and self-righteous, Chris knows it all.
>
> You know it Tex.
>
> Takes one to know one.
You've got me there Chris. ;-D
>
> Chris
>
>
>
chris
<snip>
>> Or do you think he's too ~reactive~ to look after himself?
>
> He's actually egging you on. Bruno is as sly as a fox.
Nah, he's not that sophisticated.
Unless he's a 75 year old retired Forum Leader in elaborate disguise.
Which is possible given his style here and on R&R hasn't changed in years,
he portrays a great tragic innocence worthy of a Shakespearean clown or
'fool'.
Chris
chris
>> Not to be overly picky, Bruno, but how does your wife rate your
>> lovemaking ability before and after est/Landmark? --- since you brought
>> up the topic in the first place.
>
> I don't know where you get that idea about lovemaking and est/Landmark???
>
> But if you really want to know I'm a very conservative Missionary
> position
> man. Have lived in the Cloisters too long and willing to experiement at
> the ripe
> age of 75+
> If I could be guaranteed another 25 years of orgasm I may get to the 100
> mark.
You're really 75? Good on ya mate.
I look after my 87 year old mum, she keeps me busy!
> Yes I do need something as I have recently had my Kidney stones blasted
> .
> Not very nice I can tell you.
Get well Bruno.
<snip>
> I am agitated and concerned having to make decisions about retiring,
> finances
> nephews going off the rails, and my own two kids overseas having a great
> time
> but still concerned for their safety.
>
> My son who is in France somewhere and uncontactable has had his
> credit card drained by some unscrupulous character. I am concerned for
> his safety
> as he has not called in as he usually does if he is short of monies.
> Thats not pleasant when you don't know what is happening????
Good luck to your family.
My son had just started Uni.
My advice is don't retire yet, unless you win the Lotto!
Chris
Tex
"chris" <ch...@veggies.org> wrote in message news:4555ed4c.0@entanet...
Under what name?
I couldn't find him.
> Chris
>
>
>
Markus Welch
non sequitur
You really should do some investigation of Landmark some time, scientist.
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Tex
"Markus Welch" <mar...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Aym5h.645$Sw1...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
I did recently Markus.
I checked out the "When Pigs Fly" graduate event recently.
It reminded me of why I stopped participating in their programs.
>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Markus Welch
I suggest research "outside" the little pond....not that I should have to
encourage a scientist with respect to methods.
I also suggest that you are confusing experience with investigation. It's
to be expected of some.
That's my working theory anyway....
>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Tex
I've been posting and reading here for a couple of years.
Is that outside the "pond?"
My life is busy and complicated.
you do the "research" and report back on your findings.
>
>
>
>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Markus Welch
Graduates like you confuse experience with investigation.
You'll let me know when that changes.....when your posts indicate so.
Perhaps you don't know the difference or distinction....even as a scientist.
Not yet anyway.
chris
>> Which is possible given his style here and on R&R hasn't changed in
>> years,
>> he portrays a great tragic innocence worthy of a Shakespearean clown or
>> 'fool'.
>>
> i didn't know he posted at rr.com.
> Under what name?
> I couldn't find him.
Bruno was on R&R (Linda's Rants & Raves at delphi.forums
http://forums.delphiforums.com under 'aflcommunity', not your mate Rick) for
years and years.
He majored in ever decreasing circles.
Chris
Dakota
I wouldn't dismiss Bruno just because his style isn't overt verbal
warfare, or because he doesn't typically use words as bullets. He sees
a lot more than you give him credit for, and he alludes to it without a
full frontal (ad hominem) attack.
Cody
Serena Nordstrup
bruno Tonon wrote:
> "Eldon" <Eldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1163180274.6...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > chris wrote:
> >> "bruno Tonon" <bto...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> >> news:45545be8$0$19406$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> >> >
> >> > "chris" <ch...@veggies.org> wrote in message news:45543941.0@entanet...
> >>
> >> >>> That they are attacking an organisation that actually helps most
> >> >>> people.
> >> >>
> >> >> Brainwashes most people.
> >> >>
> >> >>> Wonder how they got that all twisted up?????
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Must be the ~technology~ Bruno.
> >> >
> >> > Nuh. There is more to it . I think it has something to do with
> >> > Ethics and honesty. Just my gut feel
> >>
> >> Landmark is to 'Ethics and honesty' what Rumsfeld is to 'peace in Iraq'.
>
> Nuh can't buy that one. Rumsfeld was a war monger.
Precisely.
<snip>
> Isn't life all about experiences and learning from our mistakes no matter
> what age we are.
I dunno. Where do you get weird ideas like that from, Bruno?
And how would we test that assertion?
If we could prove that ~life~ had something to do with (say)
perpetuating genes, or growth... then that would suggest that ~life~
had more to it than just ~experiences~ and mistake-making...
Slipperily
Serena
Serena Nordstrup
bruno Tonon wrote:
<snip>
> [...] my experience of the genuine shares were that I felt they were genuine
But how do you spot genuine ~shares~ in the first place?
> and thats why they were valid.
arsy versy.
> Thats the power of Forum and thats where the therapeutics or catharsis took
> place.
non sequitur.
Slimily
Serena
Serena Nordstrup
Dakota wrote:
> Serena Nordstrup wrote:
> > Dakota wrote:
>
> > > If you actually attend the LE Forum so you can have a meaningful
> > > conversation with those of us who have, I'm almost willing to chip in
> > > for one of those Christian cult de-programmers lauded here as "experts"
> > > (who endlessly cite each other) if you feel you get "brainwashed."
> >
> > Huh? Do you really think that ~landmark education~ would let me enrol
> > myself in some course with the stated aim of having them ~process~ me
> > so that I could have a meaningful ~conversation~? The rosenbergist
> > mantra that "it doesn't mean anything ...." etc does not promise
> > meaningfulness to me. I'd much rather have the meaningful discussion
> > without the risk of brainwashing or coming to despise meaning. And we
> > can do that right now. Why wait for the next brainwashing seminar?
> > Seize the day!
>
> OK, so I completed the training and judged it to be of value,
Oh no -- not ~completed~ and ~value~ again!
> and you've made a decision that you're closed to it
It certainly looks that way to you, I suspect. I want nothing to do
with participation in any ~landmark~ activity. Does that somehow mean
"closed to it" in your book?
> and only open to criticizing those who say they judged it to be of value.
Far from it: I remain open to many, many things apart from
participating in selected nasty cults.
Asking questions of ~completers~ forms only a small part of my
activities.
> I can't undo the fact that I've participated, and you're not going to
> participate, so there really isn't any meaningful conversation for us
> to have at this point.
You probably think I haven't "participated" in ~landmark~-stuff. (Tex's
imagination does run away with him sometimes.) But even in that case, I
don't see that different ~experiences~ should prevent us from having
meaningful conversations. Why should it? Does having "participated" cut
you off from 99.9% of the world's people? If it does, no wonder
~graduates~ find recruitment so difficult these days.
> > And then, perhaps I haven't paid enough attention to the more dramatic
> > side of things, but I hadn't really noticed the lauding of "those
> > Christian cult de-programmers" here. I don't even know which
> > de-programmers you meant to refer to.
Which "Christian cult de-programmers" did you have in mind, again?
> > We'd better get that sorted out
> > before we make any sort of de-programming deal. Who knows, our tastes
> > in Christianity may differ somewhat...
>
> I'll bet they do.
>
> > > Oh, wait--if you *are* brainwashed, you won't know!
> >
> > So the theory goes.
> >
> > > It will reside in the domain of what you don't know that you don't know!
> >
> > Foreknowledge might weaken the dominion over the domain. Maybe a
> > pre-anti-brainwash brainwash could solve this. Or a meme-inoculation.
>
> Maybe so.
>
> > > Don't worry. I have integrity.
> >
> > Phew, You had me worried there. -- Tell me, where did you get that
> > integrity?
>
> You know, it was just one of those unexpected gifts.
Wow. Did it come as a single package, or did the
degree/quantity/quality of integrity increase over time?
> > > I'll let you know if it happens. Or we can designate
> > > Hap to do the evaluation. And Eldon can write an article. This could
> > > be a win-win!
> >
> > A ~conversation for enrolment~, huh? Just like so many another: all
> > roads lead to the ~forum~, which will resolve all doubts and cure all
> > perceived shortcomings, all in a process so mysterious and secretive
> > that we dare not speculate how it might happen... <sigh>. Honestly,
> > Cody, I once thought better of you.
>
> The Forum will *not* resolve all doubts and cure all perceived
> shortcomings. I *can* promise you that. If you're not interested in
> it, don't do it.
Other recruiters for ~landmark~ paint a much rosier picture of such
benefits...
> Let's talk about the experience of attending Harvard Law School. I'm
> sure we can come to a deep understanding of what that experience must
> be like so we can actually have a conversation like 2 people who
> completed a course of study there. I'm sure talking about it or
> watching snippets of classes on video and reading a book about it will
> tell us as much as someone who actually experienced it. What a great
> idea. We can memorize the jargon and even sound like we know something
> about it.
If you want to talk about ~experience~ of Harvard Law School we can
start researching. I might learn something in passing. But if you want
to talk about Harvard Law School per se, its activities and outcomes, I
might learn even more, much of it of considerable interest. We could
cover ~experience~ as a minor sub-topic, without the need to restrict
ourselves artificially and closedly.
Simpatice
Serena
Serena Nordstrup
Dakota wrote:
> Tex wrote:
<snip>
> > Some people live their life based on a consensus of opinion. That's their
> > prerogative.
>
> Yes, it is. Interesting that they choose the ignorance of public
> opinion over the more than 90 per cent positive opinion of actual
> participants.
I dunno about "living a life" in this context, and I might also dispute
that people ~choose~ one opinion, ice-cream-flavor-wise, over another.
But it doesn't take a great deal of analysis to suspect flaws in the
"90 per cent positive opinion of actual participants" claims. Or to
realize that non-participants may have a much less warped view of the
outcomes from ~landmark~.
> In fact, it's like they are conducting a witch-hunt, and
> overlooking unbelievably destructive cults while they try to take out
> organizations that actually help people.
I oppose environmental degradation in Indonesia too. But in the context
of this ~landmark~ newsgroup, somehow I concentrate my attention more
on ~landmark education~.
Simpatice
Serena
Serena Nordstrup
Dakota wrote:
> HAPPYsamurai wrote:
> > Dakota wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, it is. Interesting that they choose the ignorance of public
> > > opinion over the more than 90 per cent positive opinion of actual
> > > overlooking unbelievably destructive cults while they try to take out
> > > organizations that actually help people.
> > >
> >
> > witch hunts?
> >
> > it does LOOK that way doesn't it -- and i can't speak for anyone else
> > here
> >
> > but to use the LM analogy
> >
> > client -- my mother hates me
> >
> > leader -- what do you MEAN your mother hates you? etc etc
> >
> > how is it the client saw his mother's love as hate [this is a REAL LM
> > testimonial told me by a friend who was there by the way, and the
> > mother who he later saw loved him , had brought him there]
> >
> > try and see how, like the mother, we MAY be motivated by good
> > intentions and how we may even have it right -- knowing what you do
> > about ericksons model that you are growing and that your perceptions
> > will change with maturation
> >
> > forget that we are talking about landmark or something that you have an
> > emotional investment in
> >
> > [feeling vulnerable-- i'll abuse you now, just kidding and i assume
> > you're past the NEED for that]
>
> It's automatic for you. I think you've been in the guru business too
> long!
>
> > lets say werner is the 2nd coming of christ but the devil kidnaps him
> > and pretends to be him
> >
> > is the organisation so ethically designed that it is above manipulation
> > by the devil?
>
> It's a workshop (for Christ's sake). Do I have to question the
> validity of every class in nursery, kindergarten, elementary, middle,
> high, college, grad school, and every training course I've ever taken?
> Do I really have to do a deep examination of all of them to meet some
> criterion you've set in place?
>
> Maybe my nursery school teachers were demonic manipulators! Why aren't
> you ranting against nursery school?! Maybe kindergarten is a cult!!!
> Maybe it's been infiltrated by the devil!
>
> > big concept huh -- no practical application in the real world?
>
> I tend to take what I get from classes and not get that philosophical
> about them unless I'm the teacher who needs to design courses for
> others. This was a class that taught me something useful. Nothing
> more. I also liked my chemistry classes. Omigod! I must be
> brainwashed! I need to go back and consider how my professors were
> seeking to control my mind!
>
> > forget all the excuses about the devil doing this to every other org
> > and what right do we have to call for even higher standards from
> > werner's org than any other
>
> I thought it was a very well-designed course, and it was hands-down the
> most carefully crafted to take care of people. College and even
> nursery school weren't that attentive to my human needs.
"By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:16)
Simpatice
Serena
Serena Nordstrup
bruno Tonon wrote:
<snip>
> It seems to me that the bleaters here want you to work yourself to
> death for the corporations without any fun or play on the side.
How so, Bruno? Who said what to that effect?
I have seen one of the earlier analyses of est, though, (from Steven M.
Tipton in "Religion and America", if memory serves) suggesting that
that training served as a "bootcamp for bureaucracy".
Slipperily/slimily
Serena
Dakota
Serena Nordstrup wrote:
> bruno Tonon wrote:
> > "Eldon" <Eldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:1163180274.6...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > chris wrote:
> > >> "bruno Tonon" <bto...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> > >> news:45545be8$0$19406$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> > >> >
> > >> > "chris" <ch...@veggies.org> wrote in message news:45543941.0@entanet...
> > >>
> > >> >>> That they are attacking an organisation that actually helps most
> > >> >>> people.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Brainwashes most people.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> Wonder how they got that all twisted up?????
> > >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Must be the ~technology~ Bruno.
> > >> >
> > >> > Nuh. There is more to it . I think it has something to do with
> > >> > Ethics and honesty. Just my gut feel
> > >>
> > >> Landmark is to 'Ethics and honesty' what Rumsfeld is to 'peace in Iraq'.
> >
> > Nuh can't buy that one. Rumsfeld was a war monger.
>
> Precisely.
I agree with Bruno that the analogy doesn't hold. Although I may
disagree with some aspects of how it conducts business, LE provides a
product that helps people. Rumsfeld never considers people at all,
whether he's pushing untested chemicals past the FDA or misrepresenting
the facts in Iraq in order to justify an attack.
> <snip>
>
> > Isn't life all about experiences and learning from our mistakes no matter
> > what age we are.
>
> I dunno. Where do you get weird ideas like that from, Bruno?
>
> And how would we test that assertion?
>
> If we could prove that ~life~ had something to do with (say)
> perpetuating genes, or growth... then that would suggest that ~life~
> had more to it than just ~experiences~ and mistake-making...
Hap has alluded to the fact that he believes there is something--maybe
not a purpose--but an ethical awareness that can somehow *improve* life
for humans. I get the idea that his time in a commune/ashram setting
was about finding some utopia that could be rolled out to the larger
world. He apparently is focused on ethics in commerce and
organizations generally in his current life.
The CoS, oddly enough, when you really get down to it is also about
ethics. I strongly disagree with their pricing structure and their
totalitarian centralized control (which I also dislike about the
Catholics, Southern Baptists, etc.), but some of their courses are
amazingly insightful. I am just as likely to take a course from the
Jesuits, the CoS, or other local groups as I am from my own church
(Unitarian-Universalist). I see gems of value in all of them.
> Slipperily
Wondering minds need to know--can you distinguish when it's "slippery"
and when it's "slimey?"
Cody
Dakota
Serena Nordstrup wrote:
> Dakota wrote:
> > I thought it was a very well-designed course, and it was hands-down the
> > most carefully crafted to take care of people. College and even
> > nursery school weren't that attentive to my human needs.
>
> "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:16)
Yes, and just as we don't hold Jesus and most Christians accountable
for the Spanish Inquisition or witch-burning, the church based on his
teaching did, in fact, perpetrate these horrors, just as its
practitioners have killed people *accidentally* while conducting
exorcisms and on purpose when they've bombed clinics, during the
crusades, and as they practiced colonialism, for example.
I'm not arguing here *for* all of LE's business practices. My only
argument is that their seminars are helpful to a lot of people, and as
Tex has pointed out, most people do nothing but the basic course
anyway. One could argue the Catholic church is a cult, which I've done
solely for the sake of showing similarities.
Should LE be operating as a non-profit or as a church? Now *that's* a
different question altogether. That's the route the CoS took, and it's
come under fire, too. The bible is chock full of people perpetrating
dirty deeds of aggression, and no organization where humans are
involved is immune.
Cody
Dakota
bruno Tonon wrote:
> I also was enrolled when I heard someone share, and that helped me to
> to decide to have a go at Forum.
> I could see how it had changed the behaviour of one of my nephews for the
> better.( I must add that the change in behaviour of my nephew was not
> permanent
> and that he slackened off and partly went back to his old ways much to my
> disappointment.
Yes, it's just a tool, and just like a hammer, if you leave it in the
toolbox, you don't hit nails. That's why the whole cult thing makes no
sense. Some people choose to run with it and get as much from it as
they can, while others just take what they get in the moment and it's
unclear if they use any of it later.
> However he is approachable to talk about it and he realises that he could
> be behaving in a more positve way. ( That may demonstrate that whatever the
> fix
> may have been its certainly was not permanent.)
Again, I don't see it as a *fix.* I see it as another tool in the
toolbox, and I've used what I learned quite a bit--although I never
really think "oh, this is from est!!!" I just have it available to me.
I think that's a reason people may not "see" the change another
describes. It also can be a very small change or an epiphany,
depending on what's going on in one's life at the moment. I also don't
think it has the same effect on all people. If one is open to gaining
insights, then I think they are more likely to attain them. (It is
done unto you as you believe...)
I certainly didn't consider the organization behind the training to be
one I wanted to join as an employee or permanent volunteer. Yet, for
some it was a match, just as some Catholics choose to become celibate
priests.
Cody
elle...@hotmail.com
> > Dakota wrote:
>
> > > I thought it was a very well-designed course, and it was hands-down the
> > > most carefully crafted to take care of people. College and even
> > > nursery school weren't that attentive to my human needs.
Lucky you. (Not so lucky if you had had some problem, as an
ex-Landmark employee has written about recently on Rants & Raves a
while back):
http://forums.delphiforums.com/aflcommunity/messages/?msg=444.1
("Gingertigger" is reponding to some questions from JimP. I've snipped
it up a bit, and thanks to "gingertigger" for writing publically.)
Ellen
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...i have witnessed 8 people experiencing a psychotic episode while
participating in a landmark course...
i am not quite sure what you mean here - and i am not a psychiatrist -
but a couple of 'commonalities' were - two people 'spun out' in the
'life is empty and meaningless' conversation in the Landmark forum -
one guy stood up - convinced that the world was being run by ants -
another guy - 'spun out' during the 'racket' conversation - he thought
he was 'number 21' (he became convinced he was some sort of guru) - i
talked to him later - after he was taken out from the forum by the
forum leader. The forum leader rang the psychiatrist on call - who
asked a few questions via the forum leader - then they simply sent the
guy home.
I have seen a woman 'spin out' during an advanced course - she was
convinced that plants were speaking to her - and started to say this
after a conversation with the forum leader where he coached her about
being 'on it' with her parents. There were a few other people,
incidents which i am not going to describe - except to say that one guy
- a successful businessman - jumped from the first floor of a car park.
These incidents are NOT investigated by landmark (and when you say
'establish causality' - what are you suggesting? that it's a
co-incidence that they all flipped out during an experience that can be
extremely stressful for people?! (dont get me wrong - i think some of
the ideas in the course are great - but i think LEC's attitude to
wellbeing is extremely irresponsible to the point of pig
ignorance/nastiness.
FOr the record - what happens when someone flips out - is that the
course supervisor faxes america - with what has happened. That's all
they do - the friends and family are left to deal with the mess of the
poor person who has had the 'episode'. (and hopefully they don't use
landmark distinctions such as 'racket' on the person )
very sad. I had an experience of flipping out in a course. i was not
treated well - in fact i was treated with suspicion and mistrust - and
my 'integrity' was queried. May you never end up in the same position.
----
ps. one of the things the staff do when someone flips out is that they
quickly check to see if the person 'lied' on their forms...eg was on
medication (eg antidepressant). They tend to look for anything that
makes them less culpible. I had the misfortune to overhear the
conversation of a person 'assisting' who was looking through the
appointments diary of a guy who flipped out. She said 'he doesn't have
the handwriting of someone who would flip out.' SHe seemed to think
that messy handwriting would be a 'symptom'. The staff are not trained
to deal with people who are mentally ill - and generally - when someone
'shares' about wanting to come off their medication - the course tends
to applaud.
see 'what the bleep do we know" - it has the same regrettably
irresponsible attitude - the actress is shown to throw away her
medication.
There is still a hell of lot of misinformation - and a lack of
understanding and compassion - when it comes to mental illness in our
society....(you never see a diabetic being told to throw away THEIR
medication!!)
Sadly there is still an uninformed 'you're just being indulgent'
/you're a drama queen'/'it's all in your mind" /"get off it" etc kind
of attitude....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eldon
"In fact, it's like they [critics] are conducting a witch-hunt, and
overlooking unbelievably destructive cults while they try to take out
organizations that actually help people."
"Although I may disagree with some aspects of how it conducts business,
LE provides a
product that helps people."
"My only argument is that their seminars are helpful to a lot of
people,,,."
Just to inject a degree of specificity: How helpful to how many people,
according to what criteria, and for how long?
As opposed to: How harmful to some people (or at best ineffective)
using the same standards of measurement?
I really don't know the answers myself. But Cody and other LE fans
somehow appear to have gained absolute certainty on these matters.
Glam
Dakota wrote:
> bruno Tonon wrote:
>
> > I also was enrolled when I heard someone share, and that helped me to
> > to decide to have a go at Forum.
> > I could see how it had changed the behaviour of one of my nephews for the
> > better.( I must add that the change in behaviour of my nephew was not
> > permanent
> > and that he slackened off and partly went back to his old ways much to my
> > disappointment.
>
> Yes, it's just a tool, and just like a hammer, if you leave it in the
> toolbox, you don't hit nails. That's why the whole cult thing makes no
> sense. Some people choose to run with it and get as much from it as
> they can, while others just take what they get in the moment and it's
> unclear if they use any of it later.
THAT'S why the whole cult thing doesn't make sense? Well, thanks for
clarifying!
So the reason Landmark can't be a cult is because...some people use its
"teachings" more than others do?
Is that it, Cody?
Or is this sort of thinking indicative of your acute mental condition
kicking in again? I've never had one myself, but I can imagine it must
be terrifying. My heart goes out to you, truly.
Glam
Tex
> Cody asserts repeatedly:
>
> "In fact, it's like they [critics] are conducting a witch-hunt, and
> overlooking unbelievably destructive cults while they try to take out
> organizations that actually help people."
>
> "Although I may disagree with some aspects of how it conducts business,
> LE provides a
> product that helps people."
>
> "My only argument is that their seminars are helpful to a lot of
> people,,,."
>
> Just to inject a degree of specificity: How helpful to how many people,
> according to what criteria, and for how long?
>
> As opposed to: How harmful to some people (or at best ineffective) using
> the same standards of measurement?
It's all anecdotal evidence Eldon. I'm sure you believed leading Avatar
courses was beneficial for the participants.
I can only go by what people tell me, and my judgment of them.
I will tell you this, many people I've met who claimed "miracles" from
est/Landmark seemed to be trying to convince themselves they got something.
I've met a few at a "pro" newsgroup. My bullshit meter pegs into the red
zone when I hear people trying to convince others and often themselves of
what they've learned. Not everyone is like this of course. And I see this
other places as well.
Many people attracted to these programs are almost hopelessly fucked up,
searching for a clue. You must have met some like this during you Avatar and
Scientology days. People seek out the "alternative" approaches when
conventional paths have not worked for them. Unfortunately, "things not
working" often follow the person looking for answers everywhere they go.
They can claim they have found the "answer," but often it is what they
don't know they don't know," their blindspots, that everyone else sees but
them. Isn't this how it works for all of us sometimes.
For the most part, I think people learn something or have some small benefit
that may lead to more satisfaction in life.
On the flip side, if some of the people that are attracted to it are
clueless or lost, the "technology"may just add a level of confusion to their
life, not any added clarity. It doesn't have to be a psychotic breakdown.
Cost to value ratio, plenty of people are probably losing at Landmark,
spending tons of money for yet another "answer." Always hoping this one will
put them over the top.
I feel I got fair value for my dollar from est. No Six Day, only 2 seminars
and only 3 months of GSLP. GSLP was a positive the first 2 months, but the
last month it became a negative drag for me. If I had stayed with it longer,
perhaps I would have the same opinion that Chris, Estie and Caligari have of
it. But I cashed in my chips and moved on. My girlfriend at the time told me
to take est but stay away from assisting. It was good advice others should
follow if they take the seminars. That would be my advice to people now.
Eldon
really have no problem with that mode of communication. Personal points
of view are valid as far as they go, which averages out to about par
for the golf course of human endeavor.
Were the statements I quoted from Cody anecdotal? Or were they
presented as unequivocal fact?
HAPPYsamurai
LE provides a
> product that helps people.
all i ask is what it helps and how it helps -- tex confirmed the
"mental process" avenue
> Hap has alluded to the fact that he believes there is something--maybe
> not a purpose--but an ethical awareness that can somehow *improve* life
> for humans. I get the idea that his time in a commune/ashram setting
> was about finding some utopia that could be rolled out to the larger
> world. He apparently is focused on ethics in commerce and
> organizations generally in his current life.
as tex pointed out -- its not about character -- and from the beginning
i assumed it was
for reasons i won't bore you with
ashrams, cormerce orgs they all have one thing in common -- they don't
exist without humans
if you want me to agree try this
changing the way people think via helping them look at their thought
processes can help some of the people some of the time
but there are limitations -- and i believe an exploration of these
limitations [and forget the easy ones like mental illness] would reveal
a deeper truth
and i will say it that nebulously lest some fool think i'm enlightened
and have all the answers
chris
news:1163334957.2...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I certainly didn't consider the organization behind the training to be
> one I wanted to join as an employee or permanent volunteer. Yet, for
> some it was a match, just as some Catholics choose to become celibate
> priests.
Mainly male Catholics I hear.
Are nuns still discriminated against?
And why are there so few female Forum Leaders?
Are they less susceptible to ~coaching~? [ducking]
That's my wife's opinion by the way!
Chris
chris
> LE provides a
> product that helps people.
'Helps people' is a bit vague.
'Helps people' to finance Landmark perhaps?
Chris
chris
>The bible is chock full of people perpetrating
> dirty deeds of aggression, and no organization where humans are
> involved is immune.
Amen.
Landmark please note and acknowledge your sins and pray for salvation.
I offer absolutions for a fixed fee.
Chris
> Cody
>
chris
What does he 'see'?
(Other than the ~value~ he got from Landmark?)
Chris
Tex
> Thanks for putting the anecdotal disclaimer label upfront, Tex. I
> really have no problem with that mode of communication. Personal points
> of view are valid as far as they go, which averages out to about par
> for the golf course of human endeavor.
>
> Were the statements I quoted from Cody anecdotal? Or were they presented
> as unequivocal fact?
Opinion. I don't think there is empirical data to back up such a claim.
In fact, I think it is unmeasurable.
It is my observation that people claim to derive benefit from it.
I have my own judgments about those I know making these clams.
Some I think did benefit, others I didn't.
Some people I think would have been better off without it.
Serena Nordstrup
Dakota wrote:
> Serena Nordstrup wrote:
> > bruno Tonon wrote:
> > > "Eldon" <Eldo...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1163180274.6...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > >
> > > > chris wrote:
> > > >> "bruno Tonon" <bto...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> > > >> news:45545be8$0$19406$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> > > >> >
> > > >> > "chris" <ch...@veggies.org> wrote in message news:45543941.0@entanet...
> > > >>
> > > >> >>> That they are attacking an organisation that actually helps most
> > > >> >>> people.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Brainwashes most people.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>> Wonder how they got that all twisted up?????
> > > >> >
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Must be the ~technology~ Bruno.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Nuh. There is more to it . I think it has something to do with
> > > >> > Ethics and honesty. Just my gut feel
> > > >>
> > > >> Landmark is to 'Ethics and honesty' what Rumsfeld is to 'peace in Iraq'.
> > >
> > > Nuh can't buy that one. Rumsfeld was a war monger.
> >
> > Precisely.
>
> I agree with Bruno that the analogy doesn't hold. Although I may
> disagree with some aspects of how it conducts business, LE provides a
> product that helps people. Rumsfeld never considers people at all,
> whether he's pushing untested chemicals past the FDA or misrepresenting
> the facts in Iraq in order to justify an attack.
Perhaps Comrade Rumsfeld has a smaller circle of people he cares about
than do you and I.
> > <snip>
> >
> > > Isn't life all about experiences and learning from our mistakes no matter
> > > what age we are.
> >
> > I dunno. Where do you get weird ideas like that from, Bruno?
> >
> > And how would we test that assertion?
> >
> > If we could prove that ~life~ had something to do with (say)
> > perpetuating genes, or growth... then that would suggest that ~life~
> > had more to it than just ~experiences~ and mistake-making...
>
> Hap has alluded to the fact that he believes there is something--maybe
> not a purpose--but an ethical awareness that can somehow *improve* life
> for humans. I get the idea that his time in a commune/ashram setting
> was about finding some utopia that could be rolled out to the larger
> world. He apparently is focused on ethics in commerce and
> organizations generally in his current life.
>
> The CoS, oddly enough, when you really get down to it is also about
> ethics. I strongly disagree with their pricing structure and their
> totalitarian centralized control (which I also dislike about the
> Catholics, Southern Baptists, etc.), but some of their courses are
> amazingly insightful. I am just as likely to take a course from the
> Jesuits, the CoS, or other local groups as I am from my own church
> (Unitarian-Universalist). I see gems of value in all of them.
>
> > Slipperily
>
> Wondering minds need to know--can you distinguish when it's "slippery"
> and when it's "slimey?"
Wondering minds will need to consult Bruno, the guru and originator of
slippery/slimy.
Simulating a ~stand~ for subversion and satire
Serena
Serena Nordstrup
Dakota wrote:
> Serena Nordstrup wrote:
> > Dakota wrote:
>
> > > I thought it was a very well-designed course, and it was hands-down the
> > > most carefully crafted to take care of people. College and even
> > > nursery school weren't that attentive to my human needs.
> >
> > "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:16)
>
> Yes, and just as we don't hold Jesus and most Christians accountable
> for the Spanish Inquisition or witch-burning, the church based on his
> teaching did, in fact, perpetrate these horrors, just as its
> practitioners have killed people *accidentally* while conducting
> exorcisms and on purpose when they've bombed clinics, during the
> crusades, and as they practiced colonialism, for example.
>
> I'm not arguing here *for* all of LE's business practices. My only
> argument is that their seminars are helpful to a lot of people,
So prove that. Objectively. Set parameters. Quantify. Weigh up any
alleged good against all the alleged bad.
> and as
> Tex has pointed out, most people do nothing but the basic course
> anyway. One could argue the Catholic church is a cult, which I've done
> solely for the sake of showing similarities.
>
> Should LE be operating as a non-profit or as a church?
It seems that est in the early days, organizationally, operated as a
non-profit: "The Foundation for the Realization of Man". (Ah, the
sexist 70s...!) What changed and when?
> Now *that's* a
> different question altogether. That's the route the CoS took, and it's
> come under fire, too. The bible is chock full of people perpetrating
> dirty deeds of aggression, and no organization where humans are
> involved is immune.
... whereas organizations involving deities...