CAN A BHARAT-CHINA-RUSSIA STRATEGIC TRIANGLE REALLY WORK?
Dr. Jai Maharaj
[...]
"Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov called here Monday for
a 'strategic triangle' between Russia, India and China to ensure
regional peace and stability.
[...]
"Following a formal welcoming ceremony by Indian Prime Minister
Athal Behari Vajpayee, Primakov told reporters the regional
importance of Russia, India and China necessitated a strong
three-way relationship.
[...]
"Russia has already signed a "strategic partnership" with China,
while it has strong traditional ties with India, founded on decades
of military cooperation.
[...] End of Excerpts
- Agence France-Presse, Nayee Dillee, December 21, 1998
Jai Maharaj
Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer
"A king, though endowed with little prowess,
starting on an expedition at the proper time, in
view of the good positions of the planets, achieves
greatness that is eulogised in the scriptures."
- Brhat Samhita, 104.60
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti
Kh...@onramp.com
Maharaj) wrote:
>Excerpts
> [...]
> "Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov called here Monday for
>a 'strategic triangle' between Russia, India and China to ensure
>regional peace and stability.
Russia<>China? YES, Russia<>India its already there
BUT Russia<>China<>India NO, NO, NO. it won't work.
Reason, any country with common borders with India has a problem.
Momin
Kh...@onramp.com wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 02:05:16 GMT, address....@web.site (Dr. Jai
> Maharaj) wrote:
>
> >Excerpts
> > [...]
> > "Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov called here Monday for
> >a 'strategic triangle' between Russia, India and China to ensure
> >regional peace and stability.
>
> Russia<>China? YES, Russia<>India its already there
> BUT Russia<>China<>India NO, NO, NO. it won't work.
This pimp has finally lost it. This is what happens when you
start flagellating your head with butt-lifts facing Mecca.
> .
Kh...@onramp.com
And this dallal(pimp) of his didi in bombay has finally made it to the
club of pimps. This is what happens when paindoos humb him and his
didi at the same time.
>> .
>
Momin
Kh...@onramp.com wrote:
Go easy on those butt-lifts facing Mecca otherwise you may have to relearn
Gurmukhi and search what "humb" means...
Dr. Jai Maharaj
By Shubha Singh
Editorial
The Pioneer
Thursday, December 24, 1998
A possible partnership between Russia, China and India seems to be
a favoured prospect which comes to the mind of Russian leaders when
they come avisiting India, whether it is President Boris Yeltsin,
Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov, Secretary General of the Russian
Communist Party Zyuganov or assorted Russian parliamentarians.
On the face of it, no one can gain say the large areas of
commonality of interests between Russia, India and China which make
eminent sense to craft a partnership. But New Delhi has never
responded with any alacrity to such Russian suggestions in the
past. This may be due to the Indian aversion to participation in
any strategic or cooperative pact, or the shaky state of its
relations with China. But the suggestions have never taken a more
concrete shape.
The other factor is than no one is sure of what the Chinese
reaction would be to such a proposal. Also, although Russian
visitors may make high sounding claims and proposals while talking
to Indian audiences, they have not pursued their concept any
further, even with the Chinese. An important reason is that
different sections of the Russian government are still to adjust to
the strong gusts of the winds from America wafting through Moscow.
Till Andrei Kozyrev headed the Russian Foreign Ministry it was
firmly rooted to the West. It was only the imperatives of the
substantial trade and military ties with India that forced New
Delhi into the reckoning into Moscow's western influenced world
view. Kozyrev's departure ended the pro-West tilt in Russian
policy, but it is still to settle down after its rude shake-up.
President Yeltsin had said that a qualitative change had taken
place in Russia-China relations and in India-China relations.
"Based on the principles of mutual trust and good neigbourliness,
these three large countries -- Russia, China and India, could
become a major force in the region." While visiting Delhi Gennady
Zhuganov had said that good relations between the three countries
will assure stability of the Euro-Asian continent.
It was in the same context that Primakov responded to a specific
question, that a 'strategic triangle' would be a good idea since a
lot of what happens in the region depended on the policies and
decisions taken by Russia, India and China. But after a two-hour-
long discussion with his hosts through the day, the Russian Prime
Minister was quick to make amends later in the evening and clarify
that he had not made any formal proposal.
This was followed by Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee terse
comment that India's relations with Russia were time-tested, they
were relations of traditional friendship. While with China, India
was trying to improve relations and go in a direction of
normalising them. It was a comment which said it all -- displaying
India's reluctance to look at any alliance between the three large
countries.
It is a concept far away in the realm of the future since there is
a qualitative difference in the bilateral relationships of the
three countries. Russia which has improved its relations with China
in the recent years, after resolving its border problem, still
terms the Sino-Russian relationship as a "partnership for strategic
interaction into the 21st century". With India, Russia is planning
to sign a "strategic partnership" document at the next Indo-Russian
summit. A strategic triangle is a far cry in the present context,
but the commonality of interests and perceptions can become a
strong binding factor if the equations change in this region.
The need for multipolarity in world politics has become more than
evident with the recent US strike at Iraq. But would China and
India, both in the process of building ties with Washington, be
willing to ruffle American feathers? Especially when Russia itself
is not the economic giant it used to be.
The political relations between India and Russia are traditionally
close. New Delhi has placed considerable emphasis on the fact that
Prime Minister Primakov's visit is the first one by a permanent
member of the UN Security Council after the nuclear tests at
Pokhran and the harsh response it evoked from the Security Council.
And then Primakov is from a different mould than those Russian
leaders who brought its economy to the brink of default.
Even during the great state of flux in Moscow, though there was a
sense of dislocation which naturally affected ties with New Delhi,
the underpinning of the bilateral bonds remained strong. Sections
in the Russia's foreign and economic departments found the
allurements of the western economies more attractive, but the
strong economic, political and defence ties could not be ignored
for too long. After all, India is the only country which is
repaying its Soviet-era debt in full, and on time. Also about 80
per cent of its military hardware requirement is sourced from
Russia.
Among the seven documents signed during Primakov's visit is the
long term defence and equipment agreement till 2010, which sets the
direction for the defence cooperation. A strategic partnership is
to be formalised early next year. The Russian share of the
international arms export market came down from 21 per cent in 1992
to 6 per cent in 1994, a period of barely two years. India,
however, was still willing to source a large part of its
requirements of military hardware from Russia. Last year the level
of Russia's international trade decreased but trade with India
remained steady.
The opening up of its economy has made the economic interaction
with India a tortuous one. However, things have been improving in
the past couple of years, with the two way trade going up to $2
billion, registering a growth of 14 per cent in 1997-98 over the
previous year's figures. As Primakov told Indian businessmen that
the two sides were "untying the knots which had prevented full
trade between us."
The utilisation of the $1 billion Indian debt repayment each year
has also picked up, with only $700 million remaining in the debt
repayment rupee account. The system of auctioning the funds to
different organisations has helped in its utilisation for purchases
from India. The Indian side has conveyed that it wanted the process
to be transparent, predictable and effective.
The Russians complained about the anti-dumping duty imposed on
steel from Russia. It was explained that the anti-dumping authority
in the Commerce Ministry looked into all complaints about dumping
before additional duty is imposed. The Indian Commerce Ministry
would provide assistance in case there was a misunderstanding on
the subject. Similarly, Indian businessmen complained about their
money stuck in Russian banks, the vast majority of whom are likely
to fail. Primakov asserted that money had been placed in Russian
banks to take advantage of the large difference in interest rates.
It was a purely commercial decision, he said, though he added that
his government would provide whatever assistance it could to Indian
businessmen in this matter.
Electronic goods are slowly being added to the traditional items
for trade like tea, tobacco, rice. Indian tea was losing out to the
more aggressive marketing of Shri Lankan tea, but this year Indian
tea is back in samovars of discerning Russian tea drinkers. A sign
of the resilience of Indo-Russian ties.
Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the
educational purposes of research and open discussion.
Jai Maharaj http://www.flex.com/~jai Om Shanti
A previous post:
Excerpts
[...]
"Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov called here Monday for
a 'strategic triangle' between Russia, India and China to ensure
regional peace and stability.
NoSpamlchow
Dr. Jai Maharaj (address....@web.site) wrote:
: STRATEGIC TRIANGLE
: By Shubha Singh
: Editorial
: The Pioneer
: Thursday, December 24, 1998
: A possible partnership between Russia, China and India seems to be
: a favoured prospect which comes to the mind of Russian leaders when
: they come avisiting India, whether it is President Boris Yeltsin,
: Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov, Secretary General of the Russian
: Communist Party Zyuganov or assorted Russian parliamentarians.
Such a partnership is reasonable, based upon the common needs of these
three countries. The idealogy of these three countries are compatible
enough, that such a strategic alliance for the security of the region is
possible.
: On the face of it, no one can gain say the large areas of
: commonality of interests between Russia, India and China which make
: eminent sense to craft a partnership. But New Delhi has never
: responded with any alacrity to such Russian suggestions in the
: past. This may be due to the Indian aversion to participation in
: any strategic or cooperative pact, or the shaky state of its
: relations with China. But the suggestions have never taken a more
: concrete shape.
: The other factor is than no one is sure of what the Chinese
: reaction would be to such a proposal. Also, although Russian
: visitors may make high sounding claims and proposals while talking
: to Indian audiences, they have not pursued their concept any
: further, even with the Chinese.
This is true!
: An important reason is that
: different sections of the Russian government are still to adjust to
: the strong gusts of the winds from America wafting through Moscow.
: Till Andrei Kozyrev headed the Russian Foreign Ministry it was
: firmly rooted to the West. It was only the imperatives of the
: substantial trade and military ties with India that forced New
: Delhi into the reckoning into Moscow's western influenced world
: view. Kozyrev's departure ended the pro-West tilt in Russian
: policy, but it is still to settle down after its rude shake-up.
While there are many fundamental differences between China and India,
India and Russia, these countries can find common ground for their own
security and mutual advantage. What tends to bring these countries
together is the lies propagated by the Clinton administration, while
Americans REFUSE to believe that their government is errant.
Honest and upright behavior in international politics, AS I HAVE TOLD
Clinton, should be America's foremost concern...in effect, Clinton said
____ ___! I have no gripes against Clinton and I know that America will
be paying for Clinton's unrighteousness. I want to see a better and
strong America, but not one that acts corruptly in the international
political arena. How many Americans are willing to impeach an errant
American President and how many are willing to support him. What is most
wrong is that Congress and the media have NOT published all of Clintons
wrongs and treason. We tend to want to punish him for midnight panty
raids or censure him, rather than take a hard look at his sins. Cover up
and treason that have gone unpublished.
: President Yeltsin had said that a qualitative change had taken
His Imperial Majesty Yao Sui,
Emperor of China
jags...@hotmail.com
j...@mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
> Excerpts
> [...]
> "Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov called here Monday for
> a 'strategic triangle' between Russia, India and China to ensure
> regional peace and stability.
> [...]
> "Following a formal welcoming ceremony by Indian Prime Minister
> Athal Behari Vajpayee, Primakov told reporters the regional
> importance of Russia, India and China necessitated a strong
> three-way relationship.
> [...]
> "Russia has already signed a "strategic partnership" with China,
> while it has strong traditional ties with India, founded on decades
> of military cooperation.
> [...] End of Excerpts
> - Agence France-Presse, Nayee Dillee, December 21, 1998
>
> Jai Maharaj
Anything India-China can't work because the USA won't allow it. International
relations between countries are based on balances of power. India+China = too
much for the USA to handle. Russia vs China vs India vs Pakistan is how the
Americans like it. This way they use the threat of favours to one country as a
way to make its imediate opponent behave according to their wishes. Obviously
Pakistan is the "bottom-feeder", literally, in all off this which is why the
Clinton dumps so much on it and they just have to take it all.
--
Jag Sharma
**********
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Igor V Litvinyuk
: Anything India-China can't work because the USA won't allow it. International
: relations between countries are based on balances of power. India+China = too
: much for the USA to handle. Russia vs China vs India vs Pakistan is how the
: Americans like it. This way they use the threat of favours to one country as a
: way to make its imediate opponent behave according to their wishes. Obviously
: Pakistan is the "bottom-feeder", literally, in all off this which is why the
: Clinton dumps so much on it and they just have to take it all.
And how is that exactly "the USA won't allow it"? Bomb all three
countries or what? The presumed omnipotence of the USA is a joke,
just ask any Somalian rifleman.
Igor
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
> Anything India-China can't work because the USA won't allow it. International
> relations between countries are based on balances of power. India+China = too
> much for the USA to handle. Russia vs China vs India vs Pakistan is how the
> Americans like it. This way they use the threat of favours to one country as a
Hmm, why wouldn't we try to change it?
> way to make its imediate opponent behave according to their wishes. Obviously
> Pakistan is the "bottom-feeder", literally, in all off this which is why the
> Clinton dumps so much on it and they just have to take it all.
> --
> Jag Sharma
> **********
--
Andrey Nikolaev Ulm university,
Department of Biophysics. Germany.
Email: Andrey.Nikolaev@!get-lost-spammer!.uni-ulm.de
Substitute physik instead of !*! .
shrivatsa...@my-dejanews.com
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de wrote:
> In soc.culture.russian jags...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Anything India-China can't work because the USA won't allow it.
International
> > relations between countries are based on balances of power. India+China =
too
> > much for the USA to handle. Russia vs China vs India vs Pakistan is how the
> > Americans like it. This way they use the threat of favours to one country
as a
>
> Hmm, why wouldn't we try to change it?
How will you when you need Uncle Sam to bail you out. Uncle Sam is needed to
Bail Pakistan out, Uncle sam is needed for huge Chinese export market, uncle
sam is needed for Indian industries too.
Uncle Sam is got too many strings to control unlike China, Russia, India &
Pakistan. The best thing for India is to use Uncle Sam than vice versa. I
think we can do it better than anyone because we will never have a misile
aimed at LA vs Chian and Russia, and we will never be an Islamic tinderbox
like pakistan. We have everything US needs. Democracy, Stability, Open
market, huge potential for a level playing field. We should use our potential
to extarct the maximum out of US by playing the right cards.
>
> > way to make its imediate opponent behave according to their wishes.
Obviously
> > Pakistan is the "bottom-feeder", literally, in all off this which is why the
> > Clinton dumps so much on it and they just have to take it all.
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Niraj Agarwalla
: jags...@hotmail.com wrote:
: : Anything India-China can't work because the USA won't allow it. International
: : relations between countries are based on balances of power. India+China = too
: : much for the USA to handle. Russia vs China vs India vs Pakistan is how the
: : Americans like it. This way they use the threat of favours to one country as a
: : way to make its imediate opponent behave according to their wishes. Obviously
: : Pakistan is the "bottom-feeder", literally, in all off this which is why the
: : Clinton dumps so much on it and they just have to take it all.
: And how is that exactly "the USA won't allow it"? Bomb all three
: countries or what? The presumed omnipotence of the USA is a joke,
: just ask any Somalian rifleman.
And the Russians were a smashing success in both Chechnya and Afghanistan, right?
And the so-called Indian Peace Keeping Force were highly successful in Sri Lanka,
right? So successful, in fact, that it cost a PM his life. Give me a break.
--
Niraj Agarwalla -- ni...@shore.net -- http://www.shore.net/~niraj
Igor V Litvinyuk
: Igor V Litvinyuk (i...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: : And how is that exactly "the USA won't allow it"? Bomb all three
: : countries or what? The presumed omnipotence of the USA is a joke,
: : just ask any Somalian rifleman.
: And the Russians were a smashing success in both Chechnya and Afghanistan, right?
: And the so-called Indian Peace Keeping Force were highly successful in Sri Lanka,
: right? So successful, in fact, that it cost a PM his life. Give me a break.
So? What's your point? Is it supposed to prove that USA is not a joke?
Igor
Michael Lipin
messed up on Somalia... Bosnia.... didn't do a thing to stop Croatian ehtnic cleansing...
hmm..... BRAVO!
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
> In article <3687e...@news.uni-ulm.de>,
> Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de wrote:
>>
>> > Anything India-China can't work because the USA won't allow it.
> International
>> > relations between countries are based on balances of power. India+China =
> too
>> > much for the USA to handle. Russia vs China vs India vs Pakistan is how the
>> > Americans like it. This way they use the threat of favours to one country
> as a
>>
> How will you when you need Uncle Sam to bail you out. Uncle Sam is needed to
> Bail Pakistan out, Uncle sam is needed for huge Chinese export market, uncle
> sam is needed for Indian industries too.
It is selfboosted need. In 1985 we didn't need Uncle Sam for sure.
As for bailing out - uncle Sam bails out only himself it is proven fact.
F.e. read about last "food bail out".
> Uncle Sam is got too many strings to control unlike China, Russia, India &
> Pakistan. The best thing for India is to use Uncle Sam than vice versa. I
> think we can do it better than anyone because we will never have a misile
> aimed at LA vs Chian and Russia, and we will never be an Islamic tinderbox
> like pakistan. We have everything US needs. Democracy, Stability, Open
> market, huge potential for a level playing field. We should use our potential
> to extarct the maximum out of US by playing the right cards.
Wishful thinking mostly. First will go out your airspace companies. What
for do you need to produce planes if you can buy Boeings? They will provide
you bail out to refit your aircraft park in accordance with the "world
standards" (shhhh, TWA 800 was just a chance!). Then it will come closer in
agriculture - what for to produce agricultural machines if you can buy them
in US? And so it will go. In the moment your country will start to protect
itself on economical ground it will appear suddenly that somehow Pakistan got
something new and wants to send new guerlas to the north of India.
But go on, why not.
Tom Billings
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de wrote:
> Andrey Nikolaev Ulm university,
> Department of Biophysics. Germany.
What a Hoot!! Some behavior patterns take
a _long_ time dying, it seems, they just shift
from one place to another for a while.
Andrey, here, does sound like so many of the
good ol' boys who used to tell me that "them
damn Japanese are going to be shipping their
cheap cars here, till there ain't no more cars
the US can make, cause our factories will close,
if'n the Congress don't 'do sumpthin' about it".
Of course, _Andrey_ won't be the one to pay
more for the consumer and industrial goods _he_
purchases, if Indian import restrictions are raised
to keep industries under the control of Indian pols in
business. The truth is that the aerospace companies
are going international at a rapid rate. This shouldn't
surprise anyone here. The grief nationalists have with
that is that they are no longer soley under the thumb
of any one set of politicians.
We're already getting complaints here that Boeing is
laying off people to allow work to go to the countries
where they have partnerships with other countries
firms. At some point, Indian aerospace will probably
do likewise, or will innovate so well on their own that
they have unique products where Boeing and Lock/Mart
aren't competing. Several US companies are doing just
that, and may yet leave Boeing in the dust in the new
markets opened up.
For an example, see: www.rotaryrocket.com
Economic "protectionism" only protects the elites of
an industrializing nation, while subtly undercutting
the advance of those in society who still need cheaper
goods and cann't afford the higher prices that the
nationalistic "protectionism" brings. Using the US
as a bogeyman is as idiotic as using the Japanese for
it in the 1970s-80s was, here. Of course, to someone
ensconced in a european academic milieu, that may
seem not even part of the same world. It is, and to
the extent that the socialism of Europe isolates it
from the networks of industrialization around the
world, even Andrey will be able to feel the pinch of it,
eventually. What was the average wait for new jobs in
Germany this year for graduates, Andrey?
Regards,
Tom Billings
--
Oregon L5 Society
noone
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de wrote:
> In soc.culture.russian Tom Billings <it...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> >> Wishful thinking mostly. First will go out your airspace companies. What
> >> for do you need to produce planes if you can buy Boeings? They will provide
> >> you bail out to refit your aircraft park in accordance with the "world
> >> standards" (shhhh, TWA 800 was just a chance!). Then it will come closer in
> >> agriculture - what for to produce agricultural machines if you can buy them
> >> in US? And so it will go. In the moment your country will start to protect
> >> itself on economical ground it will appear suddenly that somehow Pakistan got
> >> something new and wants to send new guerlas to the north of India.
>
> >> But go on, why not.
>
> > What a Hoot!! Some behavior patterns take
> > a _long_ time dying, it seems, they just shift
> > from one place to another for a while.
>
> No, man, I never used to use this pattern until
> late 1995 when I read papers about American "help"
> to Russia.
>
> > Andrey, here, does sound like so many of the
> > good ol' boys who used to tell me that "them
> > damn Japanese are going to be shipping their
> > cheap cars here, till there ain't no more cars
> > the US can make, cause our factories will close,
> > if'n the Congress don't 'do sumpthin' about it".
>
> I don't care about Congress, America, US citizens.
> I see what is going on in Russia. I see relations,
> certain people, US policy in Russia and raw data.
> BTW there are now trade wars inbetween US and Japan
> and US and EU and all about US putting very high
> tax on imported goods. Of course you are not the
> one who'll pay more for goods because of that.
> Some people in Russia complining about high tarifs
> on a US steel market, and of course it is not you
> who are paying more for American steel when you can
> use Russian of the same quality but cheaper.
>
> > Of course, _Andrey_ won't be the one to pay
> > more for the consumer and industrial goods _he_
> > purchases, if Indian import restrictions are raised
> > to keep industries under the control of Indian pols in
> > business. The truth is that the aerospace companies
>
> Man I was one who paid more for dropping down all
> protection of Russian and Ukrainian market in respect
> to import from US and EU. So save me from your hollow
> rethorics. You can't fool me, but you can hope to
> succeed in brainwashing of somebody from India or China.
> Last case is extremily hard, my condolence. They put US
> as far as possible from their economy in the beginning
> of 90s and it was wise decision as time has shown us.
>
> > are going international at a rapid rate. This shouldn't
>
> Only American ones and _may_ be French but they operate
> mostly in EU.
>
> > surprise anyone here. The grief nationalists have with
> > that is that they are no longer soley under the thumb
> > of any one set of politicians.
>
> I'm not grief nationalist, you have missed but neither
> I'm pro american.
>
> > We're already getting complaints here that Boeing is
> > laying off people to allow work to go to the countries
> > where they have partnerships with other countries
> > firms. At some point, Indian aerospace will probably
>
> Your problems.
>
> > do likewise, or will innovate so well on their own that
> > they have unique products where Boeing and Lock/Mart
> > aren't competing. Several US companies are doing just
> > that, and may yet leave Boeing in the dust in the new
> > markets opened up.
>
> > For an example, see: www.rotaryrocket.com
>
> Personally my experience of communication with Russian
> space agency people says that they have nothing but
> frustration about their RSA-NASA paratnership. Of course
> you can say that they are thiefs incompetenet or whatever,
> I met here one guy who said it, but I'd like to point your
> attention that thiefs are in command of RSA now and are
> just happy with this partnership selling on a bargain prices
> everything they know about in RSA to NASA. NASA does like
> it of course. Same goes in Kurchatov institute of atomic
> energy and in a few other places I know about.
>
> > Economic "protectionism" only protects the elites of
> > an industrializing nation, while subtly undercutting
> > the advance of those in society who still need cheaper
> > goods and cann't afford the higher prices that the
> > nationalistic "protectionism" brings. Using the US
>
> Lie. Take a look on last food "help". Russia can buy
> unnecessary food for price which is 3 times higher then
> on the market. Such a partnership.
>
> > as a bogeyman is as idiotic as using the Japanese for
> > it in the 1970s-80s was, here. Of course, to someone
> > ensconced in a european academic milieu, that may
> > seem not even part of the same world. It is, and to
> > the extent that the socialism of Europe isolates it
> > from the networks of industrialization around the
> > world, even Andrey will be able to feel the pinch of it,
> > eventually. What was the average wait for new jobs in
> > Germany this year for graduates, Andrey?
>
> Plenty if you have necessary skills.
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Tom Billings
>
> Tom, it is just about my curiosity.
> I'm in Germany 11 monthes. I'm not immigrant, I'm not
> German, I don't know for how long I'll stay here after my
> PhD etc etc etc.
> I've full health insurance for 97 DM/month and I've to
> admit I used help of dantist many times.
Another freeloading russian who thinks he can get something for nothing. The 97dm is
a token payment, the major cost of health services are borne by the taxpayer.
> Do you have health insurance yourself in your God Blessed
> US?
>
> > --
> > Oregon L5 Society
>
> BTW, Tom looks like I was very near to be right and it
> explains your verbal explosion in my direction. Save your
> US propaganda for someone else, please.
>
> --
> Andrey Nikolaev Ulm university,
> Department of Biophysics. Germany.
firefly
THEY DON'T NEED A UNCLE SAM.RUSSIA ,INDIA AND CHINE HAS MANY SCIENTISTS.
. THEY HAVE MORE SCIENTISTS HOW UNCLE SAM. ALL THE SCIENTISTS IN US ARE
FOREIGNERS.PLUS RUSSIA HAS RESOURCES
BIG LAND.RUSSIA NEED GOOD LEADER< THAT ALL WHAT RUSSIA NEEDS, AND PARTNERS
LIKE CHINA AND INDIA.
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
Your problems.
> Regards,
> Tom Billings
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
>> Tom, it is just about my curiosity.
>> I'm in Germany 11 monthes. I'm not immigrant, I'm not
>> German, I don't know for how long I'll stay here after my
>> PhD etc etc etc.
>> I've full health insurance for 97 DM/month and I've to
>> admit I used help of dantist many times.
> Another freeloading russian who thinks he can get something for nothing. The 97dm is
> a token payment, the major cost of health services are borne by the taxpayer.
Exactly noone, by taxpayer. And I'm taxpayer too. But that means I know
and I'm sure in state which can help me when I need and to which I'll help
in my turn.
And you, small shithole, have the same conditions in Canada. So shud up.
>> Do you have health insurance yourself in your God Blessed
>> US?
>>
--
noone
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de wrote:
> In soc.culture.russian noone <no...@noneofyourbusiness.com> wrote:
> >> Tom, it is just about my curiosity.
> >> I'm in Germany 11 monthes. I'm not immigrant, I'm not
> >> German, I don't know for how long I'll stay here after my
> >> PhD etc etc etc.
> >> I've full health insurance for 97 DM/month and I've to
> >> admit I used help of dantist many times.
>
> > Another freeloading russian who thinks he can get something for nothing. The 97dm is
> > a token payment, the major cost of health services are borne by the taxpayer.
>
> Exactly noone, by taxpayer. And I'm taxpayer too. But that means I know
> and I'm sure in state which can help me when I need and to which I'll help
> in my turn.
> And you, small shithole, have the same conditions in Canada. So shud up.
Little blowhard russian with a head full of rotten teeth... you have to have a job to pay
taxes.
>
>
> >> Do you have health insurance yourself in your God Blessed
> >> US?
> >>
>
> --
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
jags...@hotmail.com wrote:
: In article <Bharat-18...@news.mantra.com>,
: j...@mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
: > Excerpts
: > [...]
: > "Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov called here Monday for
: > a 'strategic triangle' between Russia, India and China to ensure
: > regional peace and stability.
: > [...]
: > "Following a formal welcoming ceremony by Indian Prime Minister
: > Athal Behari Vajpayee, Primakov told reporters the regional
: > importance of Russia, India and China necessitated a strong
: > three-way relationship.
: > [...]
: > "Russia has already signed a "strategic partnership" with China,
: > while it has strong traditional ties with India, founded on decades
: > of military cooperation.
: > [...] End of Excerpts
: > - Agence France-Presse, Nayee Dillee, December 21, 1998
: >
: > Jai Maharaj
: Anything India-China can't work because the USA won't allow it. International
: relations between countries are based on balances of power. India+China = too
: much for the USA to handle. Russia vs China vs India vs Pakistan is how the
: Americans like it. This way they use the threat of favours to one country as a
: way to make its imediate opponent behave according to their wishes. Obviously
: Pakistan is the "bottom-feeder", literally, in all off this which is why the
: Clinton dumps so much on it and they just have to take it all.
: --
: Jag Sharma
: **********
: -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
: : Anything India-China can't work because the USA won't allow it. International
: : relations between countries are based on balances of power. India+China = too
: : much for the USA to handle. Russia vs China vs India vs Pakistan is how the
: : Americans like it. This way they use the threat of favours to one country as a
: : way to make its imediate opponent behave according to their wishes. Obviously
: : Pakistan is the "bottom-feeder", literally, in all off this which is why the
: : Clinton dumps so much on it and they just have to take it all.
: And how is that exactly "the USA won't allow it"? Bomb all three
Ok correct it to 'Would NOT LIKE to allow it" ;-)
: countries or what? The presumed omnipotence of the USA is a joke,
: just ask any Somalian rifleman.
: Igor
ROLO15
1. India and China (who helps Pakistan) can reconsile their differences so
that Russia can act out thir fantasies about the military alliance?
2. Will Russia, which would be the smallest country with the poorest
economy, be willing to take orders from China is such an alliance?
Bholu
ROLO15 wrote:
> Do y ou think that:
> 1. India and China (who helps Pakistan) can reconsile their differences so
> that Russia can act out thir fantasies about the military alliance?
Yes. As soon as they cut Pakistan loose and forget about
what happens south of the Himalayas. We take care of
Indian Ocean rim and South Asia. Split the difference in
Burma.
>
> 2. Will Russia, which would be the smallest country with the poorest
> economy, be willing to take orders from China is such an alliance?
No. Do not underestimate Russia and overestimate
China and India. Russia still has a massive military
research and production complex. Lets look at it
as a mutually cooperative relationship.
Russia get control of Central Asia and near abroad.
India gets control of S Asia (incl. Afghanistan) and Indian Ocean Rim
China makes off with E ASia and Pacific Rim (split some
differences in SE Asia with India).
I think this recipe will best serve the interests of humanity
over the longer run. Like it or not this kind of division has
to be worked out sooner or later.
LND
But fun and the reality are pretty different things, at least regarding to Russia.
Look at this country .... :))....
can you ...or anyone .....say that they can get control anything now or in future?
This is totally uncontrolled territory , domestically first of all - with a great
chance to be collapsed finally. They can get a big mess...that's correct...but not
a control.
So....I would recommend you to stop dreaming and solve your own problems/ambitions
based on more relyable partner.
But, anyway....your posting was very funny. Thanx.
Bholu wrote:
> No. Do not underestimate Russia ..... (cut) Russia get control of Central
> Asia and near abroad.
Bholu
better shape economically than commie
China was in the 50s and 60s.
Those who ignore Russia do it out of
ignorance and at their own peril. History
is not over yet.
LND
Comparison with China (50s, 60s)..... is just kidding. It's well known what China (I
mean economy, politics and...not a great Culture) was at that time.
But those who cannot give up with so called "Importance of Russian Empire".....are just
those who have no idea about USSR/ Russia: how this country was created, how they ran
domestic economy/politics, etc. and what's Russia's real potency, and traditional ways
of managing economy and politic.
From other side, I am not surprised by your opinion at all. Perhaps, countries in Asia
and Latin America have solid arguments to be angry on USA and Europe. This forced them
to find out an opposite side, traditionally being tried to confront with the West. I
have witnessed this many times in South America, where ppl expressed a "blind love" and
preference to USSR, without any knowledge of it's domestic politics (repressions,
aggressions, etc. ), economy (actually anti economy) and other state institutions.
Simply, because Russians (more correctly Soviets) opposed to USA.
If this is your case too, be calm - it's curable. :))
L.Gordeev
On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, LND wrote to Bholu:
>
> But those who cannot give up with so called "Importance of Russian
> Empire" .....are just those who have no idea about USSR/ Russia:
Wrong guess.
> From other side, I am not surprised by your opinion at all. Perhaps,
> countries in Asia and Latin America have solid arguments to be angry on
> USA and Europe. This forced them to find out an opposite side,
> traditionally being tried to confront with the West.
Right. However, I wonder about that unification "USA and Europe" = "West".
Europe too has solid arguments against USA. Actually, it should read
*nobody likes USA*. The reasons are both rational and irrational. For
example, people often say "why should we obey orders from that loony
superpower? -- two superpowers are better -- duality is good for normal
coexistence!". Being anti-Western is less relevant to the point.
L.G
Bholu
even without a near abroad, with its 150
million educated and technically sofisticated
people is down on its luck, not out.
Naturally there exists a power vaccuum in
Central Asia and I would rather see our
Russian friends control the peace there,
than Taliban or Ayatollahs or Lebensraum
invoking Han Chinese.
Each sphere of influence that I outlined is
quite natural given the geography and the
respective strengths of China, India and
Russia. Much of Eurasian continent will
thus find peace in Pax Indica, Pax Sinica
and Pax Rossiya.If each sticks to his
own "backyard" a durable peace will emerge
that will benefit all mankind (most of
which lives in these countries anyway).
In article
<Pine.LNX.3.96.990112...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
L.Gordeev
On 13 Jan 1999, Bholu wrote:
> I am not talking empire shempire. Russia,
> even without a near abroad, with its 150
> million educated and technically sofisticated
> people is down on its luck, not out.
>
> Naturally there exists a power vaccuum in
> Central Asia and I would rather see our
> Russian friends control the peace there,
> than Taliban or Ayatollahs or Lebensraum
> invoking Han Chinese.
>
> Each sphere of influence that I outlined is
> quite natural given the geography and the
> respective strengths of China, India and
> Russia. Much of Eurasian continent will
> thus find peace in Pax Indica, Pax Sinica
> and Pax Rossiya.If each sticks to his
> own "backyard" a durable peace will emerge
> that will benefit all mankind (most of
> which lives in these countries anyway).
Agreed.
Also add Pax Euro (Euroland) to that hmmm idyllic picture of Eurasia, and
I'll sign your memo. Pluralism (well, reasonably restricted, sorry
Latvians :-) is crucial for progress. One-power preference is a kind of
Totalitarism -- regardless of ideology.
L.G
NoSpamlchow
: Do y ou think that:
: 1. India and China (who helps Pakistan) can reconsile their differences so
: that Russia can act out thir fantasies about the military alliance?
Yes, this is possible!
: 2. Will Russia, which would be the smallest country with the poorest
: economy, be willing to take orders from China is such an alliance?
Without a doubt! Russia would be the country in charge of any alliance
between Russia, India, and China. Russia is far superior.
GOMER (Go'mer) [completion].
1. Grandson of Noah and first-named son of Japheth born after the Flood. (Gen.
10:1,2; 1 Chron 1:4,5) He and his sons, Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah, are
among "the families of the sons of Noah according to their family descents"
from whom the nations were spread about after the Deluge. Gen. 10:3,32.
The nation that descended from Gomer is historically associated with the
ancient Cimmerians, an Aryan race called Gimirrai in the Assyrian inscriptions
and who settled in the region N of the Black Sea. The Crimea (the peninsula of
the southern Ukraine extending into the northern portion of The Black Sea)
evidently derives its name from this basically nomadic people. In the eighth
century B.C.E. during the reign of Assyrian King Sargon they came through the
Caucasus (the mountainous region between the Black and Caspian Seas), attacking
the kingdoms of Urartu (Ararat) and Tubal (Tubal). Perhaps pressured by the
Scythians or else subsequently reinforced by them they penetrated eastern Asia
Minor where this Armenian name for Cappadocia, Gamir, doubtless reflects their
invasion. Faced with a strong Assyrian Empire to the east, the Cimmerians
pushed westward and warred against the Phrygians of central and NW Asia Minor.
Essarhaddon claims to have defeated the Cimmerians and Ashurbanipal, later
mentions their invasion of the kingdom of Lydia. They were finally expelled
from Lydia by Lydian King Alyattes (predecessor of Croesus).
In Ezekiel's prophecy concerning the assault by "Gog of the land of Magog"
against the regathered people of Jehovah (the writing of which was evidently
completed by 591 B.C.E.), "Gomer and all its bands" are listed among Gog's
forces along with Togarmah "of the remotest parts of the north, and all its
bands." -Ezek. 338:2-8; See Gog No. 2; Magog; Togarmah.
While mention in secular history of the Cimmerians (by that name) ends about
the sixth century B.C.E., they are associated by many scholars with the Celtic
(or, Gallic) peoples of Europe, thus indicating a movement in early times of
the Gimirrai (or, Gomerians) westward into Europe proper. The Jewish historian
Josephus connected the descendants of Gomer with the Gauls (called Galatians by
the Greeks), a number of whom invaded Asia Minor during the third century
B.C.E., giving their name to the later province of Galatia. Other ancient
historians viewed the Galatians and Cimmerians as the same race. -See Galatia.
Traces of the name of Gomer (via that of the Cimmerians) are found in other
Celtic tribes of northern Europe such as the Cimbri. The Cimbri at one time
occupied the whole of the British Isles until finally driven into the districts
where presently are found the Gael in Ireland, and Scotland, and the Cymry in
Wales. Thus, The Anchor Bible in its commentary on Genesis (1964, p. 66) says
concerning Gomer: "a name still in use apparently for the Welsh (Cymry)."
Hence, if these historical relationships are accurate, it would seem likely
that Gomer was the progenitor not only of early Cimmerians, but also of the
later Celtic peoples as a whole.
In the opposite direction to such a westward migration, in the Chinese province
of Sinkiang the tribe called the Tokhari are referred to as "linguistic
cousins" of the Celts of western Europe.
Whatever is the actual connection of these various tribes and peoples with
Gomer, the evidence presented clearly supports the Bible description of the
dispersion and spread of various families and nations from one central area in
the Middle East.
2. The daughter of Diblaim who became the wife of Hosea in accord with
Jehovah's instructions to that prophet. (Hos. 1:2, 3) Gomer thereafter gave
birth to three children whose significant names were used by God to foretell
the disastrous results of Israelis spiritual adultery in the form of idolatry.
In relating the birth of the first child, a son named Jezreel, the account
states that Gomer "bore to him [Hosea] a son." In connection with the births
of the next two children, however, no reference is made to the prophet as the
father, and this has been the basis for considering them as probably
illegitimate (1:3-9). Chapter 3 verses 1-3, appears to describe Gomer's being
brought back from an adulterous course, to the prophet, being purchased as
though a slave, thus illustrating Israel being received back by God on the
basis of their repentance.
- - - - -
PUT [perhaps, bow]. A son of Ham. (Gen. 10:6; 1 Chron. 1-8) Although Put is
mentioned elsewhere in the Bible, none of his individual offspring are named.
Often his descendants lent military support to Egypt (Jer. 46:9; Ezek. 30:4-6;
Nah. 3:9). They served as mercenaries in the armies of Tyre and contributed
to that city's greatness (Ezek. 27:3, 10). Put was also foretold to be among
the forces of Gog of Magog. -Ezek. 38:5.
Available evidence points to a connection between Put and the Libyans of N.
Africa. In four of its occurrences, Put is rendered "Libyans" or "Libya" by
the Greek Septuagint and Latin Vulgate (Jer. 46:9; Ezek. 27:10; 30:5; 38:5).
The Hebrew Put also closely corresponds to the Putaya (usually considered to
be Libya) of Old Persian inscriptions. However, Nahum 3:9 seems to indicate
that Put and Lu.vim (Libyans) are separate peoples. But this in itself would
not rule out identifying Put with the Libyans. The term "Libyans" was more
comprehensive than the Hebrew designation Lu.vim, as may be inferred from
Herodotus' reference to Libyans and various nations of Libyans. -Book II, sec.
32.
The identification of Put with the Punt of Egyptian inscriptions is not
generally accepted today for phonetic reasons. Lastly, there is a belief,
among some Chinese, based on ancient genealogy documents, that the Chinese
race descends from the 11th son of Put.
- - - - -
MAGOG (Magog). A son of Japheth and grandson of Noah. His name appears among
the family heads from whom the initial national groups were dispersed about
the earth following the Flood. -Gen. 10:1,2,5; 1 Chron. 1:5.
The name thereafter occurs in Ezekiel's prophecy concerning the storm like
attack by Gog of the land of Magog against Jehovah's regathered people. It,
therefore, appears to be used by the prophet to indicate a land or region in
the remotest parts of the north, out of which Gog's host comes forth. His
plundering forces described as riding on {symbolic} horses . . . a great
congregation {grouping of people}, even a numerous military force . . .
employing sword and bow. -Ezek. 38:2-4,8,9,13-16; 39:1-3,6.
From the time of the Jewish historian Josephus the "land of Magog" has been
suggested to relate to the fierce Scythian tribes found in NE Europe and
Central Asia. [Notation: History research texts have traced the migration of
the tribe of Magog from the southern coastal region just below the Black Sea,
to territories north of both the Black and Caspian Seas.]
Classical writers of Greek and Roman times described the Scythians as northern
barbarians rapacious and warlike equipped with large cavalry forces, well
armored, and skilled with the bow. While the name Scythian may originally
derive from "Ashkenaz" another descendant of Japheth (Gen 10:2 3), the
Encyclopoedia Britannica (1959 ed., Vol 20,, p. 235) states that throughout
classical literature Scythia generally meant all regions to the north and
northeast of the Black Sea and a Scythian (Skuthes) any barbarian coming from
those parts. Other authorities likewise show that the term "Scythian" was used
rather flexibly to embrace generally the nomadic tribes N of the Caucasus (the
region between the Black and Caspian Seas), similar to the modern use of the
term "Tartar". Hence The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
(Vol. V p. 14) comments: The name Scythians was among the ancients an elastic
appellation, and so was the Hebrew use of Magog.
SYMBOLIC USE
The fact that the definite location of the "land of Magog" is left uncertain
and indeterminate to us in the Bible (as well as in secular history) along with
the prophet's reference to the final part of the years (Ezek. 38:8) and the
fact that the described invasion is not known to have taken place literacy
upon Israel provides the basis for viewing the prophet as relating to a future
time in the Biblical time of the end. Thus many commentators see in it a
forecast of the final attack of the world powers upon the kingdom of God, and
the land of Magog as representing the world as hostile to God's people and
kingdom. New Standard Bible Dictionary by Jacobus, Lane and Zenos, p. 307.
As shown in the article on Gog (which see), the land of Magog manifestly has a
symbolic significance. The fact that the term "Scythian", with which Magog is
usually associated, came to be used as a synonym for that which is brutal and
degraded would logically seem to point to a fallen state or position of
debasement, analogous to the position assigned to Satan and his angels
following the war in heaven from which debased position he wrathfully wages
war with the remaining ones of [the woman's] seed as described at Revelation
12:7-17.
The final appearance of the term "Magog" is at Revelation 20:8, and here the
connection with God's prime adversary, Satan the Devil, is plainly stated.
However, the vision here differs in that it relates events to occur, not in
the time of the end, but at the close of the thousand-year reign of Christ
Jesus and subsequent to the loosing of Satan from the abyss. Rather than a
particular land or location, "Gog and Magog" here is used to describe those on
earth who yield to the released adversary's influence and rebel against God's
rule as expressed through the holy ones and the beloved city. Rev 2O:3, 7-10.
- - - - -
TUBAL (Tu.bal). One of the seven sons of Japheth (Gen. 10:2; 1 Chron. 1:5).
The name is thereafter used as referring to a people or land and usually in
association with Meshech, the name of another of Japheth's sons. Tubal, along
with Javan and Meshech, engaged in trading with Tyre, dealing in slaves and
copper articles (Ezek. 27:13). Tubal was included in Ezekiel's dirge over
Egypt as being among the "uncircumcised" ones with whom the Egyptians would
lie in Sheol, because of the terror they had wrought (Ezek. 32:26, 27). They
are also included among those uniting with Gog of the land of Magog (who is
called, head chieftain of Meshech and Tubal) and who comes storming out of the
remotest parts of the north in a fierce attack against God's people (Ezek.
38:2,3, 39:1,2; see Gog No. 2). In another prophesy, Jehovah foretells that
he will send envoys to proclaim his glory to Tubal, Javan and other lands.
-Isa. 66:19.
Tubal thus lay to the N of Israel but not so distant as to be out of commercial
contact with Tyre in Phoenicia. Most authorities consider the name to refer to
the same people as the Tabal or Tabali of Assyrian inscriptions where Tabal and
Mushku (evidently Meshech) are frequents mentioned together. Herodotus, some
centuries later, also listed them together as the Ti.ba.re.noi and the
Mo.skhoi. On this basis, the land of Tubal is considered to have been situated
in eastern Asia Minor. The existence of copper mines in this region coincides
with the Biblical account.
- - - - -
MESHECH (Me'shech) [a drawing out, or skinning].
1. One of the sons born after the Flood to Japheth, the son of Noah (Gen.
10:2; 1 Chron. 1:5). The name evidently extended to his descendants and the
land mentions of their settlement. The prophet Ezekiel regularly mentions
Meshech along with Tubal, indicating that they were located to the N of
Palestine. They are described as exporting slaves and cooper to Tyre and as
being warlike and as either allies or subjects of 'Gog of Magog' in his
prophesied vicious campaign against "the mountains of Israel" (Ezek. 27:13;
32:26; 38:2,3; 39:1,2; see Gog No.2). Meshech is mentioned independently of
Tubal at Psalms 120:5, evidently as representing an aggressive, barbarous
people.
About a thousand years after the Flood, Assyrian inscriptions begin to mention
a people called the Mushku occupying an area in Asia Minor to the W of Assyria.
Assyrian Emperors Tiglath-pileser I, Tukulti-Ninurta II, Ashurnasirpal II, and
Sargon all mention conflicts with them. The fact that the Mushku are
frequently mentioned along with the Tabali (evidently the Biblical Tubal)
gives reason for believing that the name Mushku derives from Meshech.
Herodotus later refers to the Mo'skhoi and the Tibarenoi' in the same manner.
Many scholars suggest that the Mushku are to be related with the Phrygians, who
apparently dominated much of western and central Asia Minor about the close of
the second millennium B.C.E. King Mita, of Mushku, referred to by Assyrian
Emperor Sargon, is construed as being identical with King Midas of Phrygia,
described in Greek tradition as ruling in the same period.
It is generally agreed that in a later period, the Mushku moved farther towards
the N. Some suggest that the name of the Mushku is to be traced on to that of
the later Muscovites of Russia.
2. Meshech appears in the Masoretic text at 1 Chronicles 1:17 as a descendant
of Shem, but the corresponding genealogy at Genesis 10:23 reads "Mash."
- - - - -
Copyright (c) 1993, 1998 Lester D. K. Chow
Original text by the International Bible Students Association.
All rights protected, 1969, 1971.
NoSpamlchow
: Yes, look at this country. Its still in a lot
: better shape economically than commie
: China was in the 50s and 60s.
: Those who ignore Russia do it out of
: ignorance and at their own peril. History
: is not over yet.
The Chow Dynasty
(China's Evil Commie Imperial Family. These people are the scorge of the
earth. They represent an evil power = Communism! We Americans hate
Commies! We would rather make friends with Russia, than bow down to
China!)
By the dynasty of Chou was consummated all that was great and good in China.
Preceding dynasties initiated the rudimentary forms of civilization, but laws,
customs, ceremonial, ethics, and the first definite forms of the written
character all trace their real beginning to Chow. The story of its rise and
progress, is, therefore of more than ordinary interest. This story as related
by the historians of the later period of the dynasty is in its entirety
incredible. Certain facts recorded are however, not only incredible, but yield
a probable account of the earliest beginnings of the civilization, which has
guided China to the present. Examination of the historical dawn of Chow
presents us moreover with valuable Information as to the probable origin of the
Chinese people.
The Chow historians assert that their people were the descendants of Howchi,
founder of agriculture and minister of Yao and connects him with Liw, who lived
under the last king of the Hsia dynasty. By this king, noted for his cruelty
and vice, he suffered such persecution for some unknown reason that he fled
from China going westwards across the Yellow River to seek refuge among the
nomadic inhabitants of Shensi. There, in B.C. 1796, he took up his abode at
the foot at Mount Pin, where he commenced agricultural operations. These he
conducted with such intelligence and industry laboring day after day, early
and late, that he produced abundance of grain. With a wise liberality he
secured the goodwill of his roving neighbors. His prosperity was so great
that many of the natives abandoned their nomadic life and betook themselves to
farming. They acquired herds of cattle and stores of grain had enough for
themselves and to spare for the wayfarer. His bounty was so freely given that
his reputation spread widely and men resorted to him from all quarters. His
operations extended to the rivers Chi and Chu affluents of the Wei, whose
products he annexed. The people confided in his protection, relied on his
faithfulness and sincerity, and praised his generosity. So many followed his
example that be became head of a considerable community. Thus, did he lay the
foundation of the Chow kingdom.
After the lapse at four and a half unrecorded centuries, Tan Fu is said to have
been head of Mount Pin settlement. His name appears in B.C. 1327 as descendant
and successor of Liw. He was troubled by the nomadic barbarians who surrounded
him on all sides. Mencius states that he lived among the Ti barbarians, who
desired to "swallow him up." He offered them skins and cloth, which did not
satisfy them. He presented horses and dogs, but they were not appeased.
Pearls and jade did not purchase peace. Then he summoned the elderly men of
his settlement and said that what the Ti wanted was the cultivated land. There
was a proverb to the effect that men should not injure others for the sake of
those things intended for the use of man. There was no ruler in the land,
therefore he suggested that he should leave that place and search out another
situation for a new settlement. He then abandoned Pin and went south to Mount
Ki, a distance of about eighty miles. The men of the Pin "kingdom," saying
that he was a good man, followed him to the number of two thousand like riders
going to a fair.
In his new kingdom, he speedily acquired so excellent a reputation that the
people from neighboring kingdoms adhered to him. To the new settlement he gave
the name Chow, signifying plenty. He was apparently satisfied with the change.
The lessons of the past were not lost upon him.
He introduced changes. He erected a fort built houses, with rooms in which to
live. The wall was surrounded by a moat. Within a year the houses inside that
wall were completed and in another year the fort became a "capital." He
instituted five officials, one to oversee his followers, another to superintend
the horses, a third to take charge of vacant ground, a fourth of cultivated
lands, and the fifth to superintend criminal affairs. His people praised him,
and his reputation was widely extended.
The diligence, the wisdom, the justice, and the benevolence congregated and
welded together a large community and laid the foundations of China.
It was in King Wen, however, that all the good qualities of the founders of
Chow (were) combined to make a character of such elevation . . . that he to
this day is regarded as the real founder of the civilization of the Chinese
nation. He devoted himself entirely to the welfare of the State. He
formulated laws; he instituted tithing of the produce of the land as income for
the government; he made office hereditary. To meet the necessities of aged men
and widows, the solitary who were without means of support and young orphans,
all of whom were the most helpless of the community. He enacted ordinances of
benevolence. He commanded his followers to bury carefully the bones of dead
men found in the wilds. The report of the incident spread over the whole
empire, producing a most favorable impression, for if he so cared for the
bones of the dead how much more would he consider the needs of the living. He
was polite to men of the lowest ranks, if they were known to be men of good
character. During daytime he ate sparingly that he might be able to attend at
all times to any business.
The last king of the previous dynasty, in his first year, became notorious for
extravagance and excessive drinking. (He) was reported guilty of the wildest
excesses and the most brutal of murders. He had discarded every good and noble
quality. Over the reports of such unnatural cruelty, King Wen sighed in
secret. His sentiments were known to his neighboring chief, the Lord of Tsung,
who accused him to Chow Sin of harboring rebellious designs. He was seized and
imprisoned for two years.
His ministers were grieving over his imprisonment. One of them adopted a
method accordant with the character of Chow Sin. From a tribe of the Yung he
procured a young woman of uncommon beauty, piebald horses, a quartet of sets
of chariot horses of a rare variety, each set consisting of four. These, with
various other curiosities. He presented to Chow Sin to purchase the liberty of
his Lord. The King received the gifts joyfully, and set the prisoner free.
The Count in his gratitude offered to the King the lands west of the river Lo,
which was the first part of Shensi annexed to China. The King was so pleased
that he granted to the Count a bow, arrows, a headman's and a battle axe,
emblems implying the right of making war. He also granted the prayer of the
Count for the abolition of branding. The Count's political creed is said to
have involved the criminality of rebellion of what wickedness so ever the King
may have been guilty. This creed was not modified by his imprisonment. He
restored to the King some "kingdoms" which had revolted.
In the year after his liberation, two Chiefs who could not agree as to their
boundaries appealed to the Count.
When they crossed the frontier of Chow they noticed the farmers yielding to
each other on points affecting their property. Travellers going in opposite
directions obligingly yielded the right of way. Entering the city they saw men
and women walking, each in their own street, without jostling or pushing.
Inside the Court, lower officials made way for the higher, and the higher for
ministers. The Chiefs were charmed with the order everywhere prevailing and
confessed themselves unworthy to enter the palace of the noble man. They
agreed to yield to each other and made the land which had been subject of
dispute neutral ground. They finished the business by acknowledging the Count
as their feudal superior. The story was widely repeated and forty "kingdoms"
followed their example and submitted to the Count of the west King Wen. He had
established a reputation for wise and just rule.
With respect to the prevailing social order and religion, it was the duty of
the King to perform religious ceremony and to conduct prayer on behalf of the
nation.
The original religion of China was or should have been the direct worship of
Heaven (or God) rather than any other manifestation. Chinese were originally
not Buddhist, nor Taoist, nor Nestorian, nor Manichean, nor Hindu, nor Muslim.
- - - - -
* The last king of Yin was Chow Sin (Shang Dynasty).
Excerpts taken from "The Origin of the Chinese People" by John Ross, D.D. and
published by OLIPHANTS of London, Eng. 1916. Additional comments by author,
HIM Yao Sui, Emperor of the nation of China.
All rights protected, 1996. Lester D. K. Chow, P.O.Box 4604, Honolulu, Hawaii
96812 for any inquiries.
gan...@my-dejanews.com
<Bholu-12019...@47.minneapolis-06-07rs.mn.dial-access.att.net>,
Bh...@bholu.land (Bholu) wrote:
> I am not talking empire shempire. Russia,
A bhiya Kirar talking "empire" again. Back to the
"padded cell" bholu. You know the instructions and
have the "passport" for getting there in you dhoti.
You have a sharp memory but next time keep the fantasies of
empire, udan khatolas, monkey armies, etc. proportional
to a banyan tree or hati!
Your folks also owe the Sakas 2500 years of rent and tax on the
banyan tree where palms were being read and profits made! Your
family's personal debt to your local Saka jagir-dar and landlord
is gold 5,000,000,000 dinars. Once you pay up, Sakas also want
back the loot that your fellas pillages under Kirar Sirkar them
over past 50 years.
You guys ripped each Saka farmer of half his income over a life
time with price fixing (50% below real prices). My estimate is
that a Saka with 10 acres is owed
20 acres (legal ceiling set by kirars, while none for
dukans/factories needing Permit Raj permission)
x 50 years (avg. working life)
x 10,000 rps/acre (50% prices not paid per acre by Kirar price
fixers - 50% of real price; 1998 prices)
= 10 million rupees (plundered from each Saka household by Kirars
and their harami government).
Note, this is not compounded with interest.
Then, there are is all the rishwat for getting any sirkari and
government work done (e.g. tubewells, court work, electricity connection).
Probably, another 1 million ruppee over a Saka's life.
With compounded interest on the above principal, each Saka family could have
bought a few benzs and MBAs at Harvard with all that loot. Now poverty
stricken Sakas drive the kids of their former low caste massaleh-wallahs and
bata-wallah beggers to the airport to get their degree at Pittsburg and NY.
Each Saka's kirar-rip-off bill is $11 million rupees for their
harami-riskwat khori raj!
> even without a near abroad, with its 150
> million educated and technically sofisticated
> people is down on its luck, not out.
>
> Naturally there exists a power vaccuum in
The Sakas will fill all the "power vacuum" there is
to be filled but bhiya bholu first attend to your debts.
> Central Asia and I would rather see our
> Russian friends control the peace there,
> than Taliban or Ayatollahs or Lebensraum
> invoking Han Chinese.
>
> Each sphere of influence that I outlined is
> quite natural given the geography and the
> respective strengths of China, India and
> Russia. Much of Eurasian continent will
> thus find peace in Pax Indica, Pax Sinica
> and Pax Rossiya.If each sticks to his
> own "backyard" a durable peace will emerge
> that will benefit all mankind (most of
> which lives in these countries anyway).
Bholu, you are losing humans again - keep to this side
of the monkey-man divide.
Gandasa
PS Dont forget the debt. The Saka interest meter is on!
>
> In article
> <Pine.LNX.3.96.990112...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
> "L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, LND wrote to Bholu:
> > >
> > > But those who cannot give up with so called "Importance of Russian
> > > Empire" .....are just those who have no idea about USSR/ Russia:
> >
> > Wrong guess.
> >
> > > From other side, I am not surprised by your opinion at all. Perhaps,
> > > countries in Asia and Latin America have solid arguments to be angry on
> > > USA and Europe. This forced them to find out an opposite side,
> > > traditionally being tried to confront with the West.
> >
> > Right. However, I wonder about that unification "USA and Europe" = "West".
> > Europe too has solid arguments against USA. Actually, it should read
> > *nobody likes USA*. The reasons are both rational and irrational. For
> > example, people often say "why should we obey orders from that loony
> > superpower? -- two superpowers are better -- duality is good for normal
> > coexistence!". Being anti-Western is less relevant to the point.
> >
> > L.G
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Bholu
Oh no! President Gandasa of Sakasthana
is too smart, he has figured it out.
Ok I will pay up, lets see...
Sakasthani $11 million = US $ 0.02
Well, thats my two cents worth.
If you want Sakasthani currency you will
have to wait until I buy another set of
monopoly.
humbly
bahman kirar bhiya
Boris B Gorshkov
discourse and will probably never realize that this war is over. It is
not easy for one who has lived for decades in that anti-Russian discourse to
find out new rhetoric and new ways or reasoning. So their narrow attitudes
toward Russia and sick imagination of this country will persist in this news
group until those people will pass away like dinosaurus millions years ago.
Bholu
ill informed and narrow minded
fools. Like I said, its at their
own peril that they ignore or
put-down Russia.
In article <77mafe$nn2$4...@ultranews.duc.auburn.edu>,