Re: India's man who lives on sunshine
Me, ...again!
These stories come up from time to time, complete with claims of
extraordinary prowess of some kind. Of the ones I have followed, carefull
study has always revealed a trickster.
On Tue, 18 May 2010 hari....@indero.com wrote:
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/may/18/prahlad-jani-india-sunshine
>
> Sanal Edamaruku
> guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 18 May 2010 15.30 BST
>
> The crimson-clad old man with the nose ring tries to tell us that he
> hasn't eaten or drunk anything since the goddess Ambaji touched his
> tongue with her finger. That must have been around the time of the
> outbreak of the second world war.
>
>
> As there are few things so well established as the biological law no
> human (and no animal) can survive without the regular intake of food
> and water, it may be sensible to approach his claim with a degree of
> scepticism. It is not usually very difficult to expose such
> characters; I have done it in several cases. But Prahlad Jani has some
> influential protectors.
>
> Dr Sudhir Shah, neurologist and head of Ahmedabad's Sterling hospital,
> propelled the silly story of Prahlad Jani into the limelight. In a
> sensational "scientific" research project, he and his team subjected
> him between 22 April and 6 May to observation and medical scrutiny.
> This project is financed and supervised by the Indian defence
> institute of physiology and allied sciences (Dipas), a wing of the
> defence research and development organisation. The public figurehead
> of the study is Dipas director Govindasamy Ilavazhagan, who seems to
> share Shah's enthusiasm for the case. Jointly, the gentlemen were
> reported to have confirmed that Jani did not eat a crumb and - more
> crucially - did not drink a single drop of water during his 15 days
> under observation - which seems completely impossible. Can scientists
> be so gullible as to salute a man who claims to turn the basic laws of
> biology upside down? Did they close their eyes (and the non-stop CCTV
> camera) when Jani quenched his thirst? There is no doubt that the
> "total surveillance" had loopholes and the "great scientific test" was
> a farce.
>
> While the test was running, I exposed some of those loopholes in a
> live programme on India TV: an official video clip revealed that Jani
> would sometimes move out of the CCTV camera's field of view; he was
> allowed to receive devotees and could even leave the sealed test room
> for a sun bath; his regular gargling and bathing activities were not
> sufficiently monitored and so on. I demanded an opportunity to check
> the test set-up with an independent team of rationalist experts. There
> was no immediate reaction from Ahmadabad. But a sudden call from
> Sterling hospital invited me - live on TV - to join the test the next
> day itself.
>
> Early morning, ready to fly to Gujarat, we were informed that we had
> to wait for the permission of the "top boss" of the project. Needless
> to say: this permission never came.
>
> Similarly, we were unable to attend Shah's first Jani test in November
> 2003 (that was financed by Dipas too). Shah has a long record of
> conducting these studies, which up till now have never been discussed
> in any scientific journal. They merely try to prove his strange
> sunshine theory: that humans can stop eating and drinking and switch
> to "other energy sources, sunlight being one". Prahlad Jani is not
> Shah's first poster child. In 2000/2001, he tested one Hira Manek for
> more than a year and confirmed his claim that he was feeding on
> sunshine only (and sometimes a little water). The idea that Shah's
> research was investigated by Nasa and the University of Pennsylvania
> was officially denied by both the misrepresented parties.
>
> Shah is a deeply religious Jain. As the president of the Indian Jain
> Doctors' Federation (JDF), he proposes that via research, the still
> imperfect science of medicine is to be brought in line with the
> Jainist '"super-science" as revealed by the omniscient Lord Mahavir.
> We can only wonder whether his researcher eyes are sometimes clouded
> by religious zeal. Interestingly, many members of his team are Jains
> and his partner in the Manek test was a former president of JDF too.
>
> Shah has also suggested this phenomenon might have potential "military
> use". And - what a shame! - the Indian defence ministry took the bait.
> Can they really be so naive as to consider putting the army on
> sunshine diet? We are trying to find out.
>
>
hari....@indero.com
results of the test it reports upon.
Perhaps to make it more interesting he can be tested with a $1000000 -
us dollars - prize as an incentive. His claim to not eat or drink for
decades can be demonstrated for the world to behold in wonder his
spiritual powers and the prize his to do as he wishes.
An american organization tests people who claim to have supernatural
powers and offers this prize for a positive test result. The original
hospital group can even be involved again if they wish, they stand only
to gain much attention for a positive test.
Read here about the details:
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html?tmpl=component&print=1&page=
Arindam Banerjee
> The original news article raised several points by which to question the
> results of the test it reports upon.
So basically the DRDO is under scrutiny and is a party to fraud?
> Perhaps to make it more interesting he can be tested with a $1000000 -
> us dollars - prize as an incentive. His claim to not eat or drink for
> decades can be demonstrated for the world to behold in wonder his
> spiritual powers and the prize his to do as he wishes.
Why bring money into it? He has submitted himself to testing, and if
the process is faulty that is not his fault. The party to blame for
fraud if any is the DRDO.
>
> An american organization tests people who claim to have supernatural
> powers and offers this prize for a positive test result. The original
> hospital group can even be involved again if they wish, they stand only
> to gain much attention for a positive test.
First be very clear that the DRDO did not do a good job at testing the
claim.
>
> Read here about the details:
>
> http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html?tmpl=component&...
Me, ...again!
On Tue, 18 May 2010 hari....@indero.com wrote:
Randi is a famous magician who has been involved in finding tricksters in
the past.
You might not find a trickster using scientists because they might be too
honest, but if you find a trickster and hire him to find the fraud, the
trickster will be more agresssive in exposing the trick.
This is sometimes why the authorities try to hire criminal hackers to help
find other criminal hackers because the criminal hackers are -- maybe
usually-- smarter than the cop anti-hackers.
>
>
>
Ray Fischer
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/may/18/prahlad-jani-india-sunshine
>
> Sanal Edamaruku
> guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 18 May 2010 15.30 BST
>
> The crimson-clad old man with the nose ring tries to tell us that he
> hasn't eaten or drunk anything since the goddess Ambaji touched his
> tongue with her finger. That must have been around the time of the
> outbreak of the second world war.
He's lying or insane. Everything else is religious propaganda.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Arindam Banerjee
> <hari.ku...@indero.com> wrote:
> >http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/may/18/prahlad-ja...
>
> > Sanal Edamaruku
> > guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 18 May 2010 15.30 BST
>
> > The crimson-clad old man with the nose ring tries to tell us that he
> > hasn't eaten or drunk anything since the goddess Ambaji touched his
> > tongue with her finger. That must have been around the time of the
> > outbreak of the second world war.
>
> He's lying or insane. Everything else is religious propaganda.
If he is lying or insane, the DRDO is responsible. And the DRDO is
the most prestigious organisation in India, bar none.
Cheers,
Arindam Banerjee
>
> --
> Ray Fischer
> rfisc...@sonic.net
ro ha ha
the man is true ....... and confirmed .... during the tests ...
he did not take anything ...... and doctors are also
flabbergasted at the old mans resilience ..... :)))))))
so wether the white man / follower of the white man / converted
hindu to christian / secularist / media bastards .........
denigrate other cultures or beliefs ... can just go and fuck
themselves , they would prefer ... to believe in
jesus who never existed or , mohammed the paedophile ,
while they also praise and honour murderers of millions like
stalin and marx ........ in name of ideology for they like
parasites live on peoples flesh .... even if they are
alive ....
hari....@indero.com
he did not take anything ...... and doctors are also
flabbergasted at the old mans resilience ..... :)))))))"
If you read the original to the end, it is clear this test was fatally
flawed in many aspects.
"so wether the white man / follower of the white man / converted hindu
to christian / secularist / media bastards ......... denigrate other
cultures or beliefs ... can just go and fuck themselves , they would
prefer ... to believe in jesus who never existed or , mohammed the
paedophile , while they also praise and honour murderers of millions
like stalin and marx ........ in name of ideology for they like
parasites live on peoples flesh .... even if they are alive ...."
It is not a question of religion, it is one of science. When someone in
the religious realm enters into the scientific realm and makes
scientific assertions, he too must follow the rules of science and must
have scientific evidence.
The rules of science were not followed and the results are no better
then at the start.
You ascribe motivations to the author of the article, but it was the
religious motivations of the people doing the test that must first be
resolved. If you doubt the author then you must provide evidence to
counter it. Personal attack is not evidence.
IT Helpdesk
news:4bf3c9e3$0$11058$1c46...@news.club.cc.cmu.edu...
Science and Religion seek precisely the same thing - the truth.
Both have unanswered questions, and both have been wrong at times in the
past. Still, the truth is what is being sought.
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
hari....@indero.com
in
> the religious realm enters into the scientific realm and makes
> scientific assertions, he too must follow the rules of science and
must
> have scientific evidence.
>
> The rules of science were not followed and the results are no better
> then at the start.
>
> You ascribe motivations to the author of the article, but it was the
> religious motivations of the people doing the test that must first be
> resolved. If you doubt the author then you must provide evidence to
> counter it. Personal attack is not evidence.
"Science and Religion seek precisely the same thing - the truth."
But the truth each of them can produce are quite different.
"Both have unanswered questions, and both have been wrong at times in
the past. Still, the truth is what is being sought."
Fine, but in this case grave questions have arisen less about truth then
about fraud and of sloppy science that does not answer any questions but
the folly of what some want to see.
As the author of the original article said, proper science in this
matter is quite possible but was not found in the sloppy proceedures in
the test done.
harmony
"Ray Fischer" <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4bf34fb1$0$1635$742e...@news.sonic.net...
the author is from brown christian establishment loyal to vatican and/or
southern baptists, hence anti-hindu. brown kirastanis get a cardiac arrest
any time good is said about hindus.
hari....@indero.com
"the author is from brown christian establishment loyal to vatican
and/or southern baptists, hence anti-hindu. brown kirastanis get a
cardiac arrest any time good is said about hindus."
No, silly boy he is just about as far from your claims as one can get,
he is your greatest nightmare. Read more of his articles concerning his
battle in india concerning similar things here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/sanal-edamaruku
He is president of the Indian Rationalist Association. Read in part
about it here:
http://www.indianrationalists.blogspot.com/
India's largest rationalist organisation. Founded in 1949. Fights for
scientific temper, secularism, freedom of thought and expression.
Defends reason and science. Exposes superstition, blind belief,
obscurantism, paranormal claims caste-based social divisions and
guru-politics nexus. Strives for a post-religious society. President:
Sanal Edamaruku Contact: H...@indianrationalist.org Phone: + 91-11-2275
3255, 6569 9012 Fax:+91-11-22755379
Arindam Banerjee
That may well be, but are they challenging the DRDO's credentials for
testing this matter on a proper scientific basis?
Me, ...again!
Hey, that sounds pretty good, if you ask me.
>
>
Me, ...again!
I'd like to know, too.
Ray Fischer
>
>the man is true ....... and confirmed .... during the tests ...
>he did not take anything ...... and doctors are also
>flabbergasted at the old mans resilience ..... :)))))))
Bullshit. As I stated, either lying or insane.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
>>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/may/18/prahlad-jani-india-sunshine
>>>
>>> Sanal Edamaruku
>>> guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 18 May 2010 15.30 BST
>>>
>>> The crimson-clad old man with the nose ring tries to tell us that he
>>> hasn't eaten or drunk anything since the goddess Ambaji touched his
>>> tongue with her finger. That must have been around the time of the
>>> outbreak of the second world war.
>>
>> He's lying or insane. Everything else is religious propaganda.
>
>the author is from brown christian establishment loyal to vatican and/or
It is impossible to live for even one year without food, much less 70.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Arindam Banerjee
Looks like the sceptics are silent on this issue. Much easier to call
a harmless old man a fraud, I take it.
hari....@indero.com
testing this matter on a proper scientific basis?"
No, for failing to do so in a proper manner.
Arindam Banerjee
You mean yes, or no?
hari....@indero.com
> testing this matter on a proper scientific basis?"
>
> No, for failing to do so in a proper manner.
"You mean yes, or no?"
I mean no, he knows but has failed to do so.
harmony
he is a shiddha, dear.
> --
> Ray Fischer
> rfis...@sonic.net
>
harmony
"Arindam Banerjee" <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:8957051c-7560-4099...@p5g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
----------------------------------
you may be dealing with a guy who says no while his bobbing head says yes.
hari....@indero.com
> testing this matter on a proper scientific basis?"
>
> No, for failing to do so in a proper manner.
You mean yes, or no?
----------------------------------
"you may be dealing with a guy who says no while his bobbing head says
yes."
This is an interesting topic. There is no rigid rule followed among the
worlds thousands of cultures what meaning is given to which motion of
the head.
But when all is said and done, the dr. knew good science proceedure, he
failed to follow it.
Wait, you are moving your head. Is that a rattle we hear?
harii...@indeero.com
and/or
>
> It is impossible to live for even one year without food, much less 70.
>
"he is a shiddha, dear."
But sweetie, you were shown the author is a strong atheist. You may
hang head in shame so well earned now, very good hold it there for a
bit. Is that a new youga pose, that foot in mouth thing?
The man in question must demonstrate any supernatural claims he makes
using the rules of science if he wants science to support him.
This has yet to be done.
Arindam Banerjee
Let me put it as clearly as I can. Are you sayiing that the DRDO has
failed to conduct this test properly?
hari....@indero.com
for
> > testing this matter on a proper scientific basis?"
>
> > No, for failing to do so in a proper manner.
>
> "You mean yes, or no?"
>
> I mean no, he knows but has failed to do so.
"Let me put it as clearly as I can. Are you sayiing that the DRDO has
failed to conduct this test properly?"
That is a new question from you. Yes, he failed to do what he knew to
be the best science.
There is an old american song, 'yes we have no banannas".
uNmaivirumbi
I thought he showed he survived and it was conducted by DRDO properly
I do not see what the problem is except Sonia's followers are angry he
is not a Jesus follower!
Ray Fischer
>"Ray Fischer" <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote in message
>> harmony <aka@hotmail> wrote:
>>>"Ray Fischer" <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote in message
>>>> <hari....@indero.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/may/18/prahlad-jani-india-sunshine
>>>>>
>>>>> Sanal Edamaruku
>>>>> guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 18 May 2010 15.30 BST
>>>>>
>>>>> The crimson-clad old man with the nose ring tries to tell us that he
>>>>> hasn't eaten or drunk anything since the goddess Ambaji touched his
>>>>> tongue with her finger. That must have been around the time of the
>>>>> outbreak of the second world war.
>>>>
>>>> He's lying or insane. Everything else is religious propaganda.
>>>
>>>the author is from brown christian establishment loyal to vatican and/or
>>
>> It is impossible to live for even one year without food, much less 70.
>
>he is a shiddha, dear.
Why do you think that that means something? It is impossible to live
for even one year without food, much less 70. Do you not understand
the word "impossible"?
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
hari....@indero.com
> failed to conduct this test properly?
"I thought he showed he survived and it was conducted by DRDO properly"
No, it was not conducted with scientific rigor. That was the point of
the original article that started this thread.
"I do not see what the problem is except Sonia's followers are angry he
is not a Jesus follower!"
Silly boy, the author of the article is a strong atheist. Do you find a
religion hiding under every bed? The author would laugh in your face.
harmony
yes, it is impossible - for common folks, not for a siddha.
> --
> Ray Fischer
> rfis...@sonic.net
>
uNmaivirumbi
> Silly boy, the author of the article is a strong atheist. Do you find a
> religion hiding under every bed? The author would laugh in your face.
So called atheists in India are crypto-Christians who operate under
cover of atheism to condemn anything Hindu. They are plenty in TN
where many athiests are Christians and muslims who use every
opportunity to destroy and attack Hindus. This is part of
proselytisation
Ray Fischer
>"Ray Fischer" <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote in message
>> harmony <aka@hotmail> wrote:
>>>"Ray Fischer" <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote in message
>>>> harmony <aka@hotmail> wrote:
>>>>>"Ray Fischer" <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> <hari....@indero.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/may/18/prahlad-jani-india-sunshine
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sanal Edamaruku
>>>>>>> guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 18 May 2010 15.30 BST
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The crimson-clad old man with the nose ring tries to tell us that
>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>> hasn't eaten or drunk anything since the goddess Ambaji touched his
>>>>>>> tongue with her finger. That must have been around the time of the
>>>>>>> outbreak of the second world war.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He's lying or insane. Everything else is religious propaganda.
>>>>>
>>>>>the author is from brown christian establishment loyal to vatican and/or
>>>>
>>>> It is impossible to live for even one year without food, much less 70.
>>>
>>>he is a shiddha, dear.
>>
>> Why do you think that that means something? It is impossible to live
>> for even one year without food, much less 70. Do you not understand
>> the word "impossible"?
>
>yes, it is impossible - for common folks, not for a siddha.
Unless a "siddha" is a machine it is impossible also for a siddha.
Your silly superstition cannot make the impossible become reality.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
harmony
ray, when you have lived long enough you will be right some day. that day
isn't today. in the mean time do learn some sanskrit.
> --
> Ray Fischer
> rfis...@sonic.net
>
Ray Fischer
hari....@indero.com
Sanal Edamaruku
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 18 May 2010 15.30 BST
The crimson-clad old man with the nose ring tries to tell us that he
hasn't eaten or drunk anything since the goddess Ambaji touched his
tongue with her finger. That must have been around the time of the
outbreak of the second world war.
As there are few things so well established as the biological law no
human (and no animal) can survive without the regular intake of food
and water, it may be sensible to approach his claim with a degree of
scepticism. It is not usually very difficult to expose such
characters; I have done it in several cases. But Prahlad Jani has some
influential protectors.
Dr Sudhir Shah, neurologist and head of Ahmedabad's Sterling hospital,
propelled the silly story of Prahlad Jani into the limelight. In a
sensational "scientific" research project, he and his team subjected
him between 22 April and 6 May to observation and medical scrutiny.
This project is financed and supervised by the Indian defence
institute of physiology and allied sciences (Dipas), a wing of the
defence research and development organisation. The public figurehead
of the study is Dipas director Govindasamy Ilavazhagan, who seems to
share Shah's enthusiasm for the case. Jointly, the gentlemen were
reported to have confirmed that Jani did not eat a crumb and - more
crucially - did not drink a single drop of water during his 15 days
under observation - which seems completely impossible. Can scientists
be so gullible as to salute a man who claims to turn the basic laws of
biology upside down? Did they close their eyes (and the non-stop CCTV
camera) when Jani quenched his thirst? There is no doubt that the
"total surveillance" had loopholes and the "great scientific test" was
a farce.
While the test was running, I exposed some of those loopholes in a
live programme on India TV: an official video clip revealed that Jani
would sometimes move out of the CCTV camera's field of view; he was
allowed to receive devotees and could even leave the sealed test room
for a sun bath; his regular gargling and bathing activities were not
sufficiently monitored and so on. I demanded an opportunity to check
the test set-up with an independent team of rationalist experts. There
was no immediate reaction from Ahmadabad. But a sudden call from
Sterling hospital invited me - live on TV - to join the test the next
day itself.
Early morning, ready to fly to Gujarat, we were informed that we had
to wait for the permission of the "top boss" of the project. Needless
to say: this permission never came.
Similarly, we were unable to attend Shah's first Jani test in November
2003 (that was financed by Dipas too). Shah has a long record of
conducting these studies, which up till now have never been discussed
in any scientific journal. They merely try to prove his strange
sunshine theory: that humans can stop eating and drinking and switch
to "other energy sources, sunlight being one". Prahlad Jani is not
Shah's first poster child. In 2000/2001, he tested one Hira Manek for
more than a year and confirmed his claim that he was feeding on
sunshine only (and sometimes a little water). The idea that Shah's
research was investigated by Nasa and the University of Pennsylvania
was officially denied by both the misrepresented parties.
Shah is a deeply religious Jain. As the president of the Indian Jain
Doctors' Federation (JDF), he proposes that via research, the still
imperfect science of medicine is to be brought in line with the
Jainist '"super-science" as revealed by the omniscient Lord Mahavir.
We can only wonder whether his researcher eyes are sometimes clouded
by religious zeal. Interestingly, many members of his team are Jains
and his partner in the Manek test was a former president of JDF too.
Shah has also suggested this phenomenon might have potential "military
use". And - what a shame! - the Indian defence ministry took the bait.
Can they really be so naive as to consider putting the army on
sunshine diet? We are trying to find out.
harmony
you are the one hanging on to kirastani superstition in definace of
scietific inquiry that established facts on the ground. given that, jesus is
now ready to save you.
Ray Fischer
>scietific inquiry that established facts on the ground.
Whines the irrational idiot who insists that a person can live for
years without food or water.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Moorthy
Then why do so many "strong atheists" silent when Western head of
state kiss ass of respective Popes including the current one, who
apart from heading a protection racket for pedophile, believe in
immaculate conception, dead rising and all sorts of irrationality. Yet
there is not so much of whisper of the news channels, print media or
these "strong atheists" as why such irrationality is being given so
much respectability. Yet when it comes to a harmless hermit
volunteering himself for study it has sent a hot rod up your tail of
these strong atheists?
hari....@indero.com
70.
>
> "he is a shiddha, dear."
>
> hang head in shame so well earned now, very good hold it there for a
>
> The man in question must demonstrate any supernatural claims he makes
> using the rules of science if he wants science to support him.
>
> This has yet to be done.
"Then why do so many "strong atheists" silent when Western head of state
kiss ass of respective Popes including the current one, who apart from
heading a protection racket for pedophile, believe in immaculate
conception, dead rising and all sorts of irrationality. Yet there is not
so much of whisper of the news channels, print media or these "strong
atheists" as why such irrationality is being given so much
respectability. Yet when it comes to a harmless hermit volunteering
himself for study it has sent a hot rod up your tail of these strong
atheists?"
Are you sure atheists don't complain about riligious activities in civic
settings? If you think so you are greatly uninformed.
HThe man in question makes assertions of a scientific nature. He must
then provide evidence as science requires. The test as reported was
greatly flawed. That is the end of it.
If some other person says they can on command perform those things you
mention, then they too enter into the setting of scientific enquery and
face the same requirements. But they are not doing so.
The original poster tried to tie religious motives to the reporting of
the failure of the test. He proved his own worst enemy for also being
ignorant of that of which he spoke.
Should we now give permission to remove his foot from his mouth?
Arindam Banerjee
The test wasn't "greatly flawed". The only negative is that he went
out of the CCTV camera range for some time. That amounts to a
disqualification, which is very different from being labelled a fraud/
scamster which is what the atheists claim.
Ray Fischer
Says a lying religious fanatic.
> The only negative is that he went
>out of the CCTV camera range for some time.
Which completely invalidates the test.
> That amounts to a
>disqualification, which is very different from being labelled a fraud/
>scamster
When you claim that the test is valid then you lie.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Me, ...again!
I agree that this "negative" really means a disqualification. But, then,
that disqualification means that the original claim remains unproven or
unsubstantiated.
Arindam Banerjee
Perfectly correct. A disqualification is something that occurs to
practically all sportsperson. In this case, it was a technical error
and not the man's fault - he was out of the camera range for a while.
It is really not easy to have perfect conditions for testing,
especially when the subject is a live and highly respected human
being. Still, enough evidence is already available from the many
doctors who saw him throughout this phase, and unless one is a total
racist, bigot or corrupt, it is impossible to declare him a fraud
based upon a mere technical lapse on the monitoring apparatus.
Cheers,
Arindam Banerjee
hari....@indero.com
out of the CCTV camera range for some time. That amounts to a
disqualification, which is very different from being labelled a fraud/
scamster which is what the atheists claim."
What was actually observed:
" While the test was running, I exposed some of those loopholes in a
live programme on India TV: an official video clip revealed that Jani
would sometimes move out of the CCTV camera's field of view; he was
allowed to receive devotees and could even leave the sealed test room
for a sun bath; his regular gargling and bathing activities were not
sufficiently monitored and so on. I demanded an opportunity to check"
As I observed previously:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/may/18/prahlad-jani-india-s
Read the article and list the noted flaws and objections raised, then
one by one comment on them and show clearly how they do not bring into
sharp question the claimed results.
If this publicity scheme were to be written up and an attempt to have it
published in a known science journal, they would be laughed out of the
door for the sloppy methods and flawed conclusions drawn. They would
not even have to consider the assertions made nor like or dislike the
reported "results" to do so.
Better still, let it be done again in a site where third party
disinterested testers in a strictly controled neutral setting can do it.
Ideally these people would be from another country with no local
possible intrests to serve and perhaps even prformed in another country.
Let no water or food for any reason enter the setting. Let no one but
the third party persons enter the setting. Let all parts of the setting
at all times be recorded on video. Let a panel of standard metabolic
tests before and after be done and the results published. Let the third
party people decide which tests to be done.
There is an adage in science, extraordinary claims require extraordinary
evidence and the best possible science to produce it. This is an
extraordinary claim and the evidence and methods and room for doubt are
of a kind that can not in any possible way serve.
Arindam Banerjee
> "The test wasn't "greatly flawed". The only negative is that he went
> out of the CCTV camera range for some time. That amounts to a
> disqualification, which is very different from being labelled a fraud/
> scamster which is what the atheists claim."
>
> What was actually observed:
>
> " While the test was running, I exposed some of those loopholes in a
> live programme on India TV: an official video clip revealed that Jani
> would sometimes move out of the CCTV camera's field of view;
the only point where the test fails on technical terms
he was
> allowed to receive devotees and could even leave the sealed test room
> for a sun bath;
fair enough, for the man needs the sun to survive.
his regular gargling and bathing activities were not
> sufficiently monitored and so on.
mere displeasure is not a technical flaw, when it cannot be quantified
as it has been for just the above case
I demanded an opportunity to check"
>
> As I observed previously:
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/may/18/prahlad-ja...
Me, ...again!
(quoted material at end)
I'll make a short comment: plants can live on sunlight and the scientific
basis is solid and well understood. Life needs a source of (chemical)
energy and materials (CNHO). There are histories of some wild claims being
exposed as frauds and they are difficult to establish as frauds when
"personal needs" require some suspension of supervision even for a short
time. Does the guy never go to the toilet, either? Is he green from all
the chlorophyll he would need? If he does essentially almost zero work,
then he would need (physiologically) a minimal level of energy for
maintenance. At some point that would have to be restored.
I will recognize one, tentative, conclusion: his claim has been unproven
by rigorous and thorough examination.
================
hari....@indero.com
out of the CCTV camera range for some time. That amounts to a
disqualification, which is very different from being labelled a fraud/
scamster which is what the atheists claim."
What was actually observed:
" While the test was running, I exposed some of those loopholes in a
live programme on India TV: an official video clip revealed that Jani
would sometimes move out of the CCTV camera's field of view;
"the only point where the test fails on technical terms"
Not at all, it fails to be able to confirm to exclude being passed
water:
he was
allowed to receive devotees and could even leave the sealed test room
for a sun bath;
"fair enough, for the man needs the sun to survive."
But his claim is that he recieves water from a hole in the roof of his
mouth. In addition to having it passed to him, intake of water can not
be excluded given this:
his regular gargling and bathing activities were not
sufficiently monitored and so on. I demanded an opportunity to check"
"mere displeasure is not a technical flaw, when it cannot be quantified
as it has been for just the above case"
It is reason to reject the test results when its methods can not exclude
fraud.
Displeasure is in the realm of poor sloppy methods and public relations
hand waving. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence based
on the very best science. This test being passed off for this is indeed
a source of displeasure on scientif grounds alone. There is no reason
to have to question motivation nor the truthfullness of the man.
harmony
lol.
i ain't whining. i am having a great time.
you a victim of kirastani faith based science - you can't tell what whining
is - and is fast crashing in front of hindu people's scientic superstitions.
apparently, jezus loves you.
> Ray Fischer
> rfis...@sonic.net
>
Ray Fischer
>On May 31, 10:37�pm, hari.ku...@indero.com wrote:
>> "The test wasn't "greatly flawed". �The only negative is that he went
>> out of the CCTV camera range for some time. �That amounts to a
>> disqualification, which is very different from being labelled a fraud/
>> scamster which is what the atheists claim."
>>
>> What was actually observed:
>>
>> " � While the test was running, I exposed some of those loopholes in a
>> � �live programme on India TV: an official video clip revealed that Jani
>> � �would sometimes move out of the CCTV camera's field of view;
>
>the only point where the test fails on technical terms
Other than the fact that he could have been eating and drinking during
the mny times he was out of view, the test is a complete success!
And yes, that is sarcasm.
>he was
>> � �allowed to receive devotees and could even leave the sealed test room
>> � �for a sun bath;
>
>fair enough, for the man needs the sun to survive.
And food and water.
Kook.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
>i ain't whining. i am having a great time.
That's the hysteria of a zealot who cannot justify his beleifs.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
harmony
another wrong diagnosis by your kirastani faith based science.
> Ray Fischer
> rfis...@sonic.net
>
Moorthy
> > > It is impossible to live for even one year without food, much less
> 70.
>
> > "he is a shiddha, dear."
>
> > But sweetie, you were shown the author is a strong atheist. =A0You may
> > hang head in shame so well earned now, very good hold it there for a
> > bit. =A0Is that a new youga pose, that foot in mouth thing?
>
> > The man in question must demonstrate any supernatural claims he makes
> > using the rules of science if he wants science to support him.
>
> > This has yet to be done.
>
> "Then why do so many "strong atheists" silent when Western head of state
> kiss ass of respective Popes including the current one, who apart from
> heading a protection racket for pedophile, believe in immaculate
> conception, dead rising and all sorts of irrationality. Yet there is not
> so much of whisper of the news channels, print media or these "strong
> atheists" as why such irrationality is being given so much
> respectability. Yet when it comes to a harmless hermit volunteering
> himself for study it has sent a hot rod up your tail of these strong
> atheists?"
>
> Are you sure atheists don't complain about riligious activities in civic
> settings? If you think so you are greatly uninformed.
>
> HThe man in question makes assertions of a scientific nature. He must
> then provide evidence as science requires. The test as reported was
> greatly flawed. That is the end of it.
Yet churchmen have been making "assertions of a scientific nature"
for many centuries, with anyone asking for evidence "as science
requires".
Instead these churchmen form an integral part of many states.
Let Pope provide proof that he is Gods representative, or stop this
"Holy Father" nonsense.
hari....@indero.com
"Yet churchmen have been making "assertions of a scientific nature" for
many centuries, with anyone asking for evidence "as science requires".
Instead these churchmen form an integral part of many states. Let Pope
provide proof that he is Gods representative, or stop this "Holy Father"
nonsense."
Does he make such claims within the scientific arena or only the
theological? What "churchman" statement that enters into the scientific
arena has gone unchallenged from the science arena?
If you can think of any, apart from merely just asserting it, then the
below applies in the exact way it did to the "test" of not consuming
food and water.
> If some other person says they can on command perform those things
you
> mention, then they too enter into the setting of scientific enquery
and
> face the same requirements. =A0But they are not doing so.
>"
Arindam Banerjee
> "The test wasn't "greatly flawed". The only negative is that he went
> out of the CCTV camera range for some time. That amounts to a
> disqualification, which is very different from being labelled a fraud/
> scamster which is what the atheists claim."
>
> What was actually observed:
>
> " While the test was running, I exposed some of those loopholes in a
> live programme on India TV: an official video clip revealed that Jani
> would sometimes move out of the CCTV camera's field of view;
>
> "the only point where the test fails on technical terms"
>
> Not at all, it fails to be able to confirm to exclude being passed
> water:
Your meaning is not clear to me. What are you saying? That he
received water from someone, or he passed water or peed? Yes, because
of the technical lapse of the camera, someone could have given him
food or water in that interval and that is the sole valid reason for
technical disqualification. Which is not his fault, and does not
count as fraud.
>
> he was
> allowed to receive devotees and could even leave the sealed test room
> for a sun bath;
>
> "fair enough, for the man needs the sun to survive."
>
> But his claim is that he recieves water from a hole in the roof of his
> mouth.
His claim is that the Goddess blessed him, and ever since he has not
eaten or drunk anything. Has anyone seem him eat or drink for the
last 70 years? If so, then let the person stand up and make such a
claim!
In addition to having it passed to him, intake of water can not
> be excluded given this:
>
> his regular gargling and bathing activities were not
> sufficiently monitored and so on. I demanded an opportunity to check"
The bathing video was to the 2003 trial, and even there he was not
shown drinking any water. Just bathing. In short, despite all
efforts, no one has ever seen him eating and drinking, so that is as
per what he claims.
> "mere displeasure is not a technical flaw, when it cannot be quantified
> as it has been for just the above case"
>
> It is reason to reject the test results when its methods can not exclude
> fraud.
When one technical lapse is highlighted, and all other facts such as
his general good health totally ignored, despite his non-intake of
food and water over extended periods when the CCTV camera or other
monitoring systems worked, the denigrators are exposed as being frauds
themselves.
> Displeasure is in the realm of poor sloppy methods and public relations
> hand waving. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence based
> on the very best science. This test being passed off for this is indeed
> a source of displeasure on scientif grounds alone. There is no reason
> to have to question motivation nor the truthfullness of the man.
Point is, this sort of "scientists" are also ardent einsteinians. Why
don't they attack the sloppy, wrong, fraudulent scam that is the
theory of relativity? Why do they accept the first postulate of
Einstein, the constancy of c? Why don't they accept that e=mcc is
bullshit and e=0.5mVVN(N-k) is right? Because they are not only
wrong, they are also corrupt and cowardly. They will not dare to
attack the powerful vested interests.
Arindam Banerjee
Arindam Banerjee
hari....@indero.com
any possible question.
> "the only point where the test fails on technical terms"
>
> Not at all, it fails to be able to confirm to exclude being passed
> water:
"Your meaning is not clear to me. What are you saying? That he
received water from someone, or he passed water or peed? Yes, because
of the technical lapse of the camera, someone could have given him food
or water in that interval and that is the sole valid reason for
technical disqualification. Which is not his fault, and does not count
as fraud."
He had water in his mouth. Was there a before and after measure of the
amount of water he used?
He bathed, what measures were taken to see he did not intake water nor
urinate in his bath?
Both of these activities commenced at his request on day 5, a typical
period when water intake becomes critical.
He recieved followers who no doubt had multiple chances either by direct
contact to pass water or to leave it in the test setting where he was
free to roam around, including outside places. We can not exclude that
the staff could have done same.
Were all people who came into contact with him searched carefully to
exclude this possibility?
This included movements outside the video recorder coverage area where
water could have been stashed.
This is not one "technical lapse" it is many each one of these events
happend over several days.
Now consult the first sentence above as the standard to be met.
This test did come close.
In fact if a first year student were to submit it he would recieve a
failing mark for sloppy methods.