Silence
Bill Lazenby
of postings on this NG in recent days. Usually I just lurk or post
something critical of Laurie King's so-called SH novels. I'm curious
about what others have to say about Holmes' connections with the United
States, particularly pastiches which are set in this fair land. I've been
working on a story that involves a visit to New Orleans by the Great
Detective (narrated by a PI with whom he works on a case) and wonder how
such a story might be received (assuming it is well written).
"Samson" (Art Bergeron--not Bill Lazenby)
Seacat
As a fellow lurker I thought I'd come down from the rafters and comment on
your question. Concerning SH stories set in the US, my opinion of the ones
I've read so far are quite similar to your opinion of the Laurie King novels
(with the possible exception of "Sherlock Holmes and the Red Demon"). They
seem (thus far) to lack some crucial element (I'm speaking in general
terms). Maybe it's the writers who try to american-ize their stories and
just end up with weak characters.
Part of the appeal of the original Holmes stories is the mystique and
intrigue of a shady London underworld that we just glimpse. Kind of like
when you see a shape in the dark and your imagination fills in the blanks to
make something sinister out of it. Even when Holmes and Watson travel
abroad, this element seems to travel with them. Everything then becomes
suspect, even Holmes' behavior as he works. Watson is our anchor to reality,
and even this is suspect due to his unfailing ability to be fooled (although
he, like the reader, is no fool). For some reason, this multi-layered thread
seems to vanish as soon as Holmes and Watson set foot on American soil in
many novels. Perhaps it's the writers' desire to portray a gritty, realistic
frontier America. That's fine, but our heroes and the people they meet
shouldn't suffer because of it. Perhaps they think it's unnecessary to spend
time developing the setting for an already American audience. This is a
gross mistake, because we see things through the eyes of our heroes.
I'm not saying it can't be done, and your idea sounds good. New Orleans
would offer a good mix of characters and locations. It would have a built-in
mystique about it, and could offer a nice spring-board to other places
Holmes and Watson might visit. Our characters could be struck by the
similaries and differences to London, or even other places they have
visited.
Anyway, just my opinion.
--
Seacat
seacat-at-bellsouth-dot-net
KAYVEN
>intrigue of a shady London underworld that we just glimpse.
> For some reason, this multi-layered thread
>seems to vanish as soon as Holmes and Watson set foot on American soil in
>many novels. Perhaps it's the writers' desire to portray a gritty, realistic
>frontier America. That's fine, but our heroes and the people they meet
>shouldn't suffer because of it.
Its a good observation. I've often noticed that American pastiches usually are
rather dreary dull things simply because the setting overshadows Sherlock & Co.
No doubt this is how they are first conceived. Think of a neat locale or crime
committed in the US around the turn of the century, add Sherlock Holmes,
sprinkle a few famous personalities into the mix and, viola!, you've got a
novel. But as you point out, Sherlock Holmes' setting is as much a part of him
as his occasional quoting of Shakespeare. So if you write _Sherlock Holmes'
Adventure of the Mayan Pyramid_ it might be a neat little story, but usually
not one worth re-reading and certainly not one that captures what we commonly
think of as "The Sherlock Holmes Feeling." Another good example would be the
relatively recent Holmes story taking place on the Titantic. Can anyone who
has read it honestly say that they became so interested in the plot that they
forgot the ship was going to go down?
This isn't to say that it can't be pulled off. The trick is to compensate for
the change in setting. A good example of this is _The Angel of the Opera_ where
Holmes goes to Paris and becomes intangled with the Phantom of the Opera.
Another is the excellent Sherlock Holmes/Fu Manchu novel _Ten Years Beyond
Baker Street_. They seem to work because by changing the narrator from Watson
to another person, they .initially inform the reader that this ISN'T going to
be a story in the style of Doyle. Also, through this method, there can be a
avoidance of going into detail about a given location. If Watson is along, he
will focus on the setting simply because its logical for him to. He's never
been there before. But a native narrator familiar with the setting isn't going
to find anything worth mentioning about the streets and weather that he has
seen dozens of times each day of his life.
Another mistake some writers make is turning Sherlock Holmes into a superman
in these different locations. Holmes has studied the manners and methods of
English Victorian society with some observations on Western Europe. At most,
his knowledge of the Americas is based on the newspapers. So Holmes should,
once he's set foot on American soil, be somewhat lost. Sure, he would be able
to determine a few things about individuals from their manners, but his
inferences would contain enough doubt that he isn't likely to vocalize one of
his "observation games" on an unsuspecting person. I'd like to think that
Holmes was humble enough, in theory if not in personality, to see himself as a
mere consultant on a case. His ignorance of a city's geography, socially as
well as physically, would require him to seek considerable assistance from the
local authorities rather than work alone, as is his usual Modus Operandi. In
other words, Holmes himself would need a local consulting detective.
So to wrap up: simple settings and a human Sherlock Holmes.
Naturally, this is only an opinion.
--- Steven Marc Harris
Paul Weiss
<emailme:sea...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> As a fellow lurker I thought I'd come down from the rafters and comment on
> your question. Concerning SH stories set in the US, my opinion of the ones
> I've read so far are quite similar to your opinion of the Laurie King novels
> (with the possible exception of "Sherlock Holmes and the Red Demon"). They
> seem (thus far) to lack some crucial element (I'm speaking in general
> terms). Maybe it's the writers who try to american-ize their stories and
> just end up with weak characters.
>
Any opinions and comments from the NG's participants on "SH and the Red
Demon"? It's on sale at the local Indigo and I've thought about it a few
times but haven't indulged yet.
--
Cheers,
Paul Weiss
E-mail: cpw...@netaccess.on.ca
Personal Home Page: http://www.netaccess.on.ca/~cpweiss/
Quote: "To you, it's a six-pack ... to me, it's a support group!"
"Don't take life too seriously ... nobody gets out alive!"
Paul Weiss
(KAYVEN) wrote:
>
> Another mistake some writers make is turning Sherlock Holmes into a superman
> in these different locations. Holmes has studied the manners and methods of
> English Victorian society with some observations on Western Europe. At most,
> his knowledge of the Americas is based on the newspapers. So Holmes should,
> once he's set foot on American soil, be somewhat lost. Sure, he would
be able
> to determine a few things about individuals from their manners, but his
> inferences would contain enough doubt that he isn't likely to vocalize one of
> his "observation games" on an unsuspecting person. I'd like to think that
> Holmes was humble enough, in theory if not in personality, to see
himself as a
> mere consultant on a case. His ignorance of a city's geography, socially as
> well as physically, would require him to seek considerable assistance
from the
> local authorities rather than work alone, as is his usual Modus Operandi. In
> other words, Holmes himself would need a local consulting detective.
>
> So to wrap up: simple settings and a human Sherlock Holmes.
>
> Naturally, this is only an opinion.
Never thought about that but, of course, you're right. There are always
significant cultural differences when one travels to a different country.
It would make a VERY amusing scene to have Holmes playing one of his
"observation games", as you call them, and to have him be completely wrong
on the basis of a plausible cultural difference. It would make an
interesting sidebar to have the author be sure to spell out Watson's
carefully hidden snicker.
MARY HAWKINS
Perhaps my system isn't working properly, but I've noticed a decided
lack of postings on this NG in recent days. Usually I just lurk or post
something critical of Laurie King's so-called SH novels. I'm curious
about what others have to say about Holmes' connections with the United
States, particularly pastiches which are set in this fair land. I've
been working on a story that involves a visit to New Orleans by the
Great Detective (narrated by a PI with whom he works on a case) and
wonder how such a story might be received (assuming it is well written).
"Samson" (Art Bergeron--not Bill Lazenby)
Bristish Victorian society which so beautifully defined his personality
In subtle ways the setting and character mutually complimet each
other.
When reading "Study in Scarlet" and "Valley of Fear" which both had
background plots set in america I raced thru Doyle"s interpretations.
finding it less interesting or authentic. I felt Doyle was struggling. I
wanted to get back to sherlock and all that he was doing in London.
I'm not a writer, but what I long for is a pastiche written in a British
colony. From what I have read the British took their persona with them.
Horse races, cricket matches, men's clubs all sprang up within a few
years no matter wherever they were.They formed tightly knit enclaves in
the most exotic places in the world, seemingly oblivious and unaffected
by their environment. What about Sherlock in one of these locales?
British Hong Kong for instance which is neglected by writers had a
corrupt govenment at odds with the foreign office. There were pirates,
unbelievably wealthy tea merchants, British and Chinese collaborators
in opium smuggling and the constant conflict of two cultures that could
not understand each other.
Would it be asking too much of you to move your plot from New Orleans to
British Hong Kong?
Mary
Depend upon it. There is nothing so unnatural as the commonplace.
Charles Prepolec
Don't bother! Samba for Sherlock is possibly the worst Holmes pastiche in some
time. I received email from a couple Brazilians who strongly disagreed with my
views on this book because I "...do not understand the culture." My dislike of
this book has nothing to do with the locale, the culture or the people, only
the plot, the characterization of Holmes and Watson and the incredibly poor
writing. You have been warned, proceed at your own risk! :)
As to Holmes in the US, I can highly recommend 'The Surrogate Assassin' by
Christopher Leppek. This one has Edwin Booth hiring our duo to protect him from
a lunatic assassin, leading to an investigation of the Lincoln assassination. I
couldn't put this one down. The best pastiche in the last 5 years. Beats merry
hell out of the 2 books by Millett. Get your hands on this one!
Regards,
Charles Prepolec
Robert Cain wrote:
> I also have "A Samba for Sherlock", in which Holmes and Watson go to Rio to
> solve a case. Haven't read that one yet, it's next on the list.
>
> Robert
Robert Cain
Paul Weiss wrote in message ...
>In article <r4IR2.128$6U5....@news1.mia>, "Seacat"
><emailme:sea...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>Any opinions and comments from the NG's participants on "SH and the Red
>Demon"? It's on sale at the local Indigo and I've thought about it a few
>times but haven't indulged yet.
Thought it was decent. Read it a while back, but it was enjoyable. I did
have this nagging feeling the whole time that something wasn't quite right
about Holmes and Watson, but could never quite place my finger on it.
I understand the author (Millet I think his name was) has another Holmes
book coming out, anyone know anything about it?
I'm also about done reading "The Angel of The Opera". Interesting, although
I'm not sure how much I like the theme about Sherlock and women. The book
does remind me very much of another Sherlock meets the Phantom book, "The
Canary Trainer" by Nicolas Meyer.
Seacat
that you have a great idea. A Holmes story set in a british colony of the
period would be capital. I don't recall one off hand that was anything more
than a brief aside. British Hong Kong is good, or India perhaps. If handled
correctly, this could solve a lot of the problems we've been discussing. The
"comfortable" victorian atmosphere of the colony could serve as a transition
to the more exotic surroundings, people and customs.
--
Seacat
seacat-at-bellsouth-dot-net
MadiHolmes
>interesting sidebar to have the author be sure to spell out Watson's
>carefully hidden snicker.
>
Perhaps India or even a return to Afghanistan.. where Watson could explain all
the little details to Holmes :)
Personally, I'd like to see them in Canada...
Also, on a sidebar. I didn't read Angel of the Opera. I had just read "The
Canary Keeper" and it seemed like a rip-off to me (also, I couldn't stand not
having Watson there. They are a team, and as a team they were. :)
MadiHolmes
Richard Brooks
I had, for some strange reasons, allwyas pictured him at the Russian court
prior to the reveolution. There is enough intrige going on there to
embelish it slightly for a good Holmes story. Would probably be along the
lines of Scandal..... whereby Holmes has to perform some task for the
greater good, perhaps prevent the revolution?
Anyway i think the character and feel of the originals could be maintained
in this setting.
Richard
Seacat heeft geschreven in bericht ...
Paul E. Jamison
> Interesting,
>
> I had, for some strange reasons, allwyas pictured him at the Russian court
> prior to the reveolution. There is enough intrige going on there to
> embelish it slightly for a good Holmes story. Would probably be along the
> lines of Scandal..... whereby Holmes has to perform some task for the
> greater good, perhaps prevent the revolution?
>
> Anyway i think the character and feel of the originals could be maintained
> in this setting.
>
This might work out nicely. I wonder if Afghanistan might not also figure into
this particular adventure as well. The idea of Watson visiting the ghosts of
his old Army days would add an interesting flavor to it (and perhaps the Mystery
of the Traveling Wound could be explained!).
So far there have been some excellent suggestions for locale in this thread. I
like Art Bergeron's idea to use New Orleans. The city itself could easily
become a "third character" in the adventure (and after all, doesn't London
itself become a character in many of the stories?).
Paul E. Jamison, Esq.
--
"So this Vorlon says to me, 'Never ask that question!' And I go, I says,
'IT'S THE ONLY QUESTION I'VE GOT, BABY!!"
- The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs Space Stations at Midnight
ste...@hotmail.com
> (Holmes') ignorance of a city's geography, socially as
> well as physically, would require him to seek considerable assistance from the
> local authorities rather than work alone, as is his usual Modus Operandi. In
> other words, Holmes himself would need a local consulting detective.
Holmes' knowledge, and therefore his very reason for existance, is limited to
that which he has studied. Take him from his 'element' and all sorts of weird
psychological things happen to him.
This is illustrated perfectly in Andy Lane's novel 'All-Consuming Fire':
Featuring Holmes, Watson, Mycroft, Siger, Sherringford (...), Moriarty, The
Doctor, Ace and Professor Bernice Summerfield- as well as the pope, the
Library of St. John The Beheaded, a certain large rodent from a distant land,
a bunch of alien creatures and a planet inside an ice-encrusted sky. It's
utterly wonderful, and is published by Virgin, in their 'Doctor Who: The New
Adventures' range. Buy it.
Steev
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
X. Sanguin8
I to have noticed this newsgroup withering away lately. I believe that
you are on the right track in choosing New Orleans. It has it's own
distinctive flair. San Francisco(which is my hometown by the way) has
fog and hills and a great deal of oriental influence that makes for a
great mystery backdrop. Although I have never been there I have heard
that Boston is another city that has it's rich history in it's favor.
The interesting thing that I find is that all of the above mentioned
locations are port city's. And were (prior to airline travel) hubs of
ideas and influences from all over the world!
Best Regards,
X. Sanguin8
Bill Lazenby wrote:
>
> Perhaps my system isn't working properly, but I've noticed a decided lack
> of postings on this NG in recent days. Usually I just lurk or post
> something critical of Laurie King's so-called SH novels. I'm curious
> about what others have to say about Holmes' connections with the United
> States, particularly pastiches which are set in this fair land. I've been
> working on a story that involves a visit to New Orleans by the Great
> Detective (narrated by a PI with whom he works on a case) and wonder how
> such a story might be received (assuming it is well written).
> "Samson" (Art Bergeron--not Bill Lazenby)
--
Best regards,
X. Sanguin8
To reply, remove -nospamplease- from address
X. Sanguin8
Save your hard earned money, The author was too involved with this
story's location and history. He does not understand Holmes and
Watson's relationship, or is incapable of writing the critical tight
dialog that is essential between these characters. In the "Red Demon"
Holmes and Watson are like fire and ice. Often Holmes is downright
rude and disrespectful to Watson. As I read this book I couldn't
understand why Holmes and Watson were tolerating each others company!
Best Regards,
X. Sanguin8
To reply, remove -nospamplease- from address
Paul Weiss wrote:
>
> In article <r4IR2.128$6U5....@news1.mia>, "Seacat"
> <emailme:sea...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > As a fellow lurker I thought I'd come down from the rafters and comment on
> > your question. Concerning SH stories set in the US, my opinion of the ones
> > I've read so far are quite similar to your opinion of the Laurie King novels
> > (with the possible exception of "Sherlock Holmes and the Red Demon"). They
> > seem (thus far) to lack some crucial element (I'm speaking in general
> > terms). Maybe it's the writers who try to american-ize their stories and
> > just end up with weak characters.
> >
>
> Any opinions and comments from the NG's participants on "SH and the Red
> Demon"? It's on sale at the local Indigo and I've thought about it a few
> times but haven't indulged yet.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Paul Weiss
>
> E-mail: cpw...@netaccess.on.ca
> Personal Home Page: http://www.netaccess.on.ca/~cpweiss/
>
> Quote: "To you, it's a six-pack ... to me, it's a support group!"
> "Don't take life too seriously ... nobody gets out alive!"
--
Bill Lazenby
MSSB...@webtv.net (MARY HAWKINS) wrote:
[snipped]
>Would it be asking too much of you to move your plot from New Orleans to
>British Hong Kong?
>
>Mary
>
It certainly would be for me, Mary. As a native of the Bayou State, I
feel much more comfortable writing about the Crescent City than a place
I've never visited. Perhaps someone else can transport Holmes to the
colony.
"Samson"
Robert Cain
Charles Prepolec <3157...@3web.net> wrote in message
<3717DFD2...@3web.net>...
>Robert,
>Don't bother! Samba for Sherlock is possibly the worst Holmes pastiche in
some
>time. I received email from a couple Brazilians who strongly disagreed with
my
>views on this book because I "...do not understand the culture." My dislike
of
>this book has nothing to do with the locale, the culture or the people,
only
>the plot, the characterization of Holmes and Watson and the incredibly poor
>writing. You have been warned, proceed at your own risk! :)
Hmm. I'm beginning to wish I'd listened to you. Started Samba Friday, and am
almost done with it. If it wasn't for his terrible portrayal of
Holmes/Watson, it would be an enjoyable read. Unfortunately, he chose to
portray Watson as an idiot, and Sherlock as a bumbler who fakes his way
through his cases. When I got to the chapter where Holmes smokes pot and
attempts to seduce a mulatto actress I was disgusted I almost put it down.
I'm curious to see who did it, though, so I'll probably go ahead and finish
it.
It's really pretty sad, in a way, as the portrayal of 1886 Rio is really
quite fascinating. Most of the other characters in the book are enjoyable,
especially the Rio detective. I think the book could have been actually good
if the author had left out Holmes and Watson! Sadly, it appears his only
exposure to our favorite duo was via some bad films. Like the one where
Michael Caine portrayed an actor playing Holmes, and it was Watson who was
the true detective. Except for Moriarty, everyone in the public was fooled.
Can't remember the name of the movie, but I'm sure someone will chime in
with it's name shortly.
I definitely won't be recommending Samba to anyone else...
Robert
JJ Rains
Bill Lazenby wrote in message ...
>As a native of the Bayou State, I
>feel much more comfortable writing about the Crescent City than a place
>I've never visited.
Excellent. Maybe you can find out about something for me. I've been to New
Orleans a lot and am always drawn to the large memorial to somebody buried
there. it is about twenty feet high, and is visible in a cemetary from I-10
as you drive from Metairie and take the turn towards downtown. It says in
black letters on the white stone, MORIARTY. This has always led me to
envision an Anerican adventure between the Great Detective and the
Professor. Who's buried there, and when did they die?
MARY HAWKINS
Would it be asking too much of you to move your plot from New Orleans to
British Hong Kong? Mary
feel much more comfortable writing about the Crescent City than a place
I've never visited.
Of Course. I had also asked Anne Rice to move her Vampire series to
British Hong Kong and couldn't get her to budge either. BG.
MadiHolmes
>Michael Caine portrayed an actor playing Holmes, and it was Watson who was
>the true detective. Except for Moriarty, everyone in the public was fooled.
>Can't remember the name of the movie, but I'm sure someone will chime in
>with it's name shortly.
>
>I definitely won't be recommending Samba to anyone else...
>
> Robert
>
I happened to like that movie (if you can't laugh at a parody, then what can
you laugh at?)
A well-down parody is great. A bad parody is hell.
This is one of the better parodies I've seen in a long time :)
MadiHolmes