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"John Thomas" and Dalgliesh
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Joel Polowin
Jul 22, 2012, 2:49:13 PM7/22/12
to
I've heard a number of times that Heinlein was intentionally slipping
a dirty joke past Alice Dalgliesh when he named _The Star Beast_'s
protagonist "John Thomas". Is there any documentation of that,
such as a letter or a note in his files?
a dirty joke past Alice Dalgliesh when he named _The Star Beast_'s
protagonist "John Thomas". Is there any documentation of that,
such as a letter or a note in his files?
jeanette
Jul 23, 2012, 11:39:26 AM7/23/12
to
I think it is Grumbles from the Grave that talks about it the most.
Jeanette
Jeanette
Joel Polowin
Jul 23, 2012, 12:33:01 PM7/23/12
to
On Jul 23, 11:39 am, wo...@webtv.net (jeanette) wrote:
> I think it is Grumbles from the Grave that talks about it the most.
I checked in the section of the book that deals with _Star Beast_
> I think it is Grumbles from the Grave that talks about it the most.
and Dalgliesh, before asking here; it isn't mentioned.
Michael Black
Jul 23, 2012, 7:09:28 PM7/23/12
to
looking at it for something the other day and it really is a very brief
amount of anything per book. The only reason it's not a disappointment is
that there's nothing better.
There should be something there though, because I'm sure I've read
something about "John Thomas" beyond this newsgroup, and I can't imagine
where else.
The Patterson Biography likely will deal with it, but only when the second
volume comes out.
Michael
lal_truckee
Jul 23, 2012, 7:29:32 PM7/23/12
to
On 7/23/12 4:09 PM, Michael Black wrote:
>
> The Patterson Biography likely will deal with it, but only when the
> second volume comes out.
What "Patterson Biography?" You really think there is one?
>
> The Patterson Biography likely will deal with it, but only when the
> second volume comes out.
I've been waiting for Part Two so long I'll have to re-read Part One or
I won't remember the players...
Michael Black
Jul 23, 2012, 10:11:03 PM7/23/12
to
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012, lal_truckee wrote:
> On 7/23/12 4:09 PM, Michael Black wrote:
>>
>> The Patterson Biography likely will deal with it, but only when the
>> second volume comes out.
>
> What "Patterson Biography?" You really think there is one?
>
to cover new territory, since most of the time it covers predates his
science fiction phase.
But I think it ends too early to cover The Star Beast.
Michael
Chris Zakes
Jul 24, 2012, 7:28:16 AM7/24/12
to
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 22:11:03 -0400, an orbital mind-control laser
caused Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> to write:
>On Mon, 23 Jul 2012, lal_truckee wrote:
>
>> On 7/23/12 4:09 PM, Michael Black wrote:
>>>
>>> The Patterson Biography likely will deal with it, but only when the
>>> second volume comes out.
>>
>> What "Patterson Biography?" You really think there is one?
>>
>I saw it in the store last week. I've yet to get it, but I figure it has
>to cover new territory, since most of the time it covers predates his
>science fiction phase.
>
>But I think it ends too early to cover The Star Beast.
>
> Michael
Part 1 of the Biography ends with his marriage to Virginia in 1948.
caused Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> to write:
>On Mon, 23 Jul 2012, lal_truckee wrote:
>
>> On 7/23/12 4:09 PM, Michael Black wrote:
>>>
>>> The Patterson Biography likely will deal with it, but only when the
>>> second volume comes out.
>>
>> What "Patterson Biography?" You really think there is one?
>>
>I saw it in the store last week. I've yet to get it, but I figure it has
>to cover new territory, since most of the time it covers predates his
>science fiction phase.
>
>But I think it ends too early to cover The Star Beast.
>
> Michael
"Star Beast" wasn't published until 1954. So yeah, waiting is...
As i understand things, the book's been written, it's just a matter of
the publisher finishing his end of the deal. IIRC the current plan is
for a release around Christmas.
-Chris Zakes
Texas
--
Education is when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get if you don't.
- Pete Seeger
MikeC
Jul 24, 2012, 1:52:52 PM7/24/12
to
'Grumbles' but when I attempted to check I was not able to find it ready
to hand as it were. Maybe it was in one of the Society articles or a
posting on that website...
Further checking might turn it up though and it so I will post the
references then.
On to the issue of the second volume of RAH...
I think Chris is more hopeful than most with this timeline. Yes it
is[was?] intended to be a 'late new' or Post October Release for the
Christmas Season Sales in the US... but, reality happens all the same.
As Bill himself notes recently on his blog
http://www.whpattersonjr.com/blog/
Red Letter Day
Thursday July 19, 2012: Finished the last of the second-pass edits. No
edits have yet been received on the appendices � which includes a
chapter on the events of the world of Heinleiniana in the years
following his death and a chapter of some startling contemporaneous
recollections of the summer of 1947 when Heinlein�s marriage to Leslyn
broke up. Mrs. Grace Dugan Sang (now Wurtz) provided a great deal of
information and help for this biography after reading the first volume.
There will be, in addition, a complete bibliography in the form of the
Guide to the Virginia Edition, by special permission of the Prize Trust
and the Virginia Edition LLC. That seemed the most compact way of
getting all the core information in print and generally available.
and earlier in 2012
http://www.whpattersonjr.com/blog/?p=142
It�s been awhile since there was any real news to report. Following the
worldcon last year, I had a transmetatarsal amputation of my right foot
and was down for a couple of months but during recuperation completed
the first-pass edit of the second volume, tentatively titled �The Man
Who Learned Better� though I also favor �Time Enough for Love.�
We started the second pass edit late last year but had a long hiatus
after chapter 6 while David Hartwell finished up other contracts.
[continued within the blog]
_____
The amputation (half a foot, basically) put off Bill's ability to
complete his second pass edits; additionally David Hartwell's editing
was delayed -- the two periods of time did not coincide well.
Mike C
jeanette
Jul 25, 2012, 11:49:03 AM7/25/12
to
Librarian daughter is getting married this weekend and we are
remodelling so bookshelf is "in transition" (as it seems is whole house)
so I don't have time to look.
Is it perhaps in one of the amendments to the newer editions of one of
the books???
For some reason I am thinking Podkayne. Star Best makes more sense but
RAH was mad at what she had done to Red Planet so maybe there.
Jeanette
remodelling so bookshelf is "in transition" (as it seems is whole house)
so I don't have time to look.
Is it perhaps in one of the amendments to the newer editions of one of
the books???
For some reason I am thinking Podkayne. Star Best makes more sense but
RAH was mad at what she had done to Red Planet so maybe there.
Jeanette
Michael Black
Jul 25, 2012, 10:00:48 PM7/25/12
to
books, especially not when their price is so much higher than when I first
bought them, but I was reading some of those intros and afterwards in the
bookstore the other day.
Of course, there's no consistency, some of the juveniles are with one
publisher, who has republished them in trade paperback form, while the
other juveniles have gone to another publisher, which has republished them
in trade paperback, but with the forward and afterward. So they don't all
get the same treatment, a shame.
Michael
kuduzapper
Jul 31, 2012, 9:48:34 PM7/31/12
to
Mike Dworetsky
Aug 3, 2012, 4:00:58 AM8/3/12
to
Companion_ goes into this at some length, though no specific documentation
or "smoking gun" is mentioned. Heinlein was getting tired of Dalgliesh's
censorious editing, and slipping this double-entendre past her, complete
with references to "raising John Thomases", must have been immensely
satisfying.
--
Mike Dworetsky
(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)
Bookman
Aug 4, 2012, 8:29:13 PM8/4/12
to
well-known interest in naming his charachters. Granted, the first obvious
(or at lest admitted) book in which he makes a serious effort to use names
with /sepcific meanings/ for his characters is SiaSL, but that doesn't
preclude him doing so beforehand, especially as a small revenge on a
small-minded editor. ;-)
Regards,
--
Bookman
Hammer of Thor award, October 2005
Co-holder, Diamond Hammer of Thor, May 2007
(Along with the other(tino) AFA-B Bullies)
BARBARA WOODHOUSE MEMORIAL DOG-WHISTLE AWARD
"MIGUEL", TRAINED BY BOOKMAN
COOSN-266-06-89425
The Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in AFA-B
(Retired)
bpral...@aol.com
Aug 31, 2012, 10:32:59 PM8/31/12
to
of the subsequent comments, though I have been through the entire
thread. There is no documentation; he never mentioned it in
correspondence, and it's not in any file note. It's a speculation by
Jim Gifford, though I think it's a pretty well-founded speculation.
In the U.S. we get "John Thomas" as slang for penis from Lady
Chatterly's Lover, but it was underground slang in the UK for a long
time before that. It would be next to impossible for Heinlein not to
have known it in 1954. LCL is pretty visible to us because most of
the literary pornography Heinlein would have been familiar with (he
had some of Louys' books in his personal library until he died) has
faded out of public consciousness.
Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: in a
1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally. My
editor was an English woman from a (Negro =) Caribbean Island -- I
pointed out the proof to her some years after publication. She was
furious! Eventually it led to a parting with that publisher." And of
course Johnny Rico being Philippine (said to be the first Asian SF
hero) is held to almost the end of Starship Troopers (1959).
Joel Polowin
Sep 2, 2012, 3:06:58 PM9/2/12
to
On Aug 31, 10:32 pm, bpral22...@aol.com wrote:
> On Jul 22, 11:49 am, Joel Polowin <jpolo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I've heard a number of times that Heinlein was intentionally slipping
> > a dirty joke past Alice Dalgliesh when he named _The Star Beast_'s
> > protagonist "John Thomas". Is there any documentation of that,
> > such as a letter or a note in his files?
>
> I'm going to post this reply to the starting post, rather than to any
> of the subsequent comments, though I have been through the entire
> thread. There is no documentation; he never mentioned it in
> correspondence, and it's not in any file note. It's a speculation by
> Jim Gifford, though I think it's a pretty well-founded speculation.
> [etc.]
> On Jul 22, 11:49 am, Joel Polowin <jpolo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I've heard a number of times that Heinlein was intentionally slipping
> > a dirty joke past Alice Dalgliesh when he named _The Star Beast_'s
> > protagonist "John Thomas". Is there any documentation of that,
> > such as a letter or a note in his files?
>
> I'm going to post this reply to the starting post, rather than to any
> of the subsequent comments, though I have been through the entire
> thread. There is no documentation; he never mentioned it in
> correspondence, and it's not in any file note. It's a speculation by
> Jim Gifford, though I think it's a pretty well-founded speculation.
Okay; it's good to at least know how well-founded the speculation
is. Thanks.
Michael Stemper
Sep 6, 2012, 1:46:05 PM9/6/12
to
In article <d796a201-2882-43b8...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, bpral...@aol.com writes:
terminated his relationship with Scribner's based on his submission of
_Starship Troopers_ as a juvenile?
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Life's too important to take seriously.
>On Jul 22, 11:49=A0am, Joel Polowin <jpolo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I've heard a number of times that Heinlein was intentionally slipping
>> a dirty joke past Alice Dalgliesh when he named _The Star Beast_'s
>> protagonist "John Thomas". =A0Is there any documentation of that,
>> I've heard a number of times that Heinlein was intentionally slipping
>> a dirty joke past Alice Dalgliesh when he named _The Star Beast_'s
>> such as a letter or a note in his files?
>Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: in a
>1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
>used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
>buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally. My
>editor was an English woman from a (Negro =3D) Caribbean Island -- I
>1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
>used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
>buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally. My
>pointed out the proof to her some years after publication. She was
>furious! Eventually it led to a parting with that publisher."
It sounds like double-counting here. Wasn't it the case that Dalgliesh
>furious! Eventually it led to a parting with that publisher."
terminated his relationship with Scribner's based on his submission of
_Starship Troopers_ as a juvenile?
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Life's too important to take seriously.
bpral...@aol.com
Sep 6, 2012, 9:15:09 PM9/6/12
to
On 6 Sep., 10:46, mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper)
wrote:
she rejected a single ms. in 1959, with the specific recommendation
that he revisit the story again in a year. She had rejected previous
works (Red Planet for one in 1949/50).
Heinlein did not care for the way the Scriber's editorial board
handled the entire matter of Starship Troopers and refused to submit
anything to them ever again. Oversimplification, but that's the kernal
of it.
wrote:
>> Eventually it led to a parting with that publisher."
>
> It sounds like double-counting here. Wasn't it the case that Dalgliesh
> terminated his relationship with Scribner's based on his submission of
> _Starship Troopers_ as a juvenile?
>
No. Miss Dalgliesh did not terminate his relationship with Scribner;
>
> It sounds like double-counting here. Wasn't it the case that Dalgliesh
> terminated his relationship with Scribner's based on his submission of
> _Starship Troopers_ as a juvenile?
>
she rejected a single ms. in 1959, with the specific recommendation
that he revisit the story again in a year. She had rejected previous
works (Red Planet for one in 1949/50).
Heinlein did not care for the way the Scriber's editorial board
handled the entire matter of Starship Troopers and refused to submit
anything to them ever again. Oversimplification, but that's the kernal
of it.
tian
Sep 7, 2012, 3:25:16 AM9/7/12
to
--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Latest change: Added an update on the current state of my garden.
The Green pin I got from a Kiwi in Baltimore's on a Mississippi quarter.
Chris Zakes
Sep 7, 2012, 8:54:19 AM9/7/12
to
On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:46:05 +0000 (UTC), an orbital mind-control
laser caused mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) to write:
>In article <d796a201-2882-43b8...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, bpral...@aol.com writes:
>>On Jul 22, 11:49=A0am, Joel Polowin <jpolo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I've heard a number of times that Heinlein was intentionally slipping
>>> a dirty joke past Alice Dalgliesh when he named _The Star Beast_'s
>>> protagonist "John Thomas". =A0Is there any documentation of that,
>>> such as a letter or a note in his files?
>
>>Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: in a
>>1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
>>used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
>>buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally.
The version *I* recall is that, in replying to a fan letter accusing
laser caused mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) to write:
>In article <d796a201-2882-43b8...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, bpral...@aol.com writes:
>>On Jul 22, 11:49=A0am, Joel Polowin <jpolo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I've heard a number of times that Heinlein was intentionally slipping
>>> a dirty joke past Alice Dalgliesh when he named _The Star Beast_'s
>>> protagonist "John Thomas". =A0Is there any documentation of that,
>>> such as a letter or a note in his files?
>
>>Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: in a
>>1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
>>used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
>>buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally.
him of being a racist, Heinlein pointed out that he had a Negro hero
in "Tunnel", but didn't specify the hero's gender. I've always taken
that to mean Caroline Mshiyeni, not Rod Walker.
Is there another, more specific letter, because there's a fair bit of
evidence suggesting that Rod *wasn't* Negro.
-Chris Zakes
Texas
--
Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out.
-Arthur C. Clarke, "The Nine Billion Names of God"
Michael Stemper
Sep 7, 2012, 9:02:43 AM9/7/12
to
Yisroel Markov
Sep 7, 2012, 9:03:02 AM9/7/12
to
On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 00:25:16 -0700, tian <tnha...@aceweb.com.nospam>
said:
>On 07/25/2012 07:00 PM, Michael Black wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, jeanette wrote:
>>
>>> Librarian daughter is getting married this weekend and we are
>>> remodelling so bookshelf is "in transition" (as it seems is whole house)
>>> so I don't have time to look.
>>>
>>> Is it perhaps in one of the amendments to the newer editions of one of
>>> the books???
>>>
>>> For some reason I am thinking Podkayne. Star Best makes more sense but
>>> RAH was mad at what she had done to Red Planet so maybe there.
>>>
>> That's a good suggestion. I can't bring myself to buy another set of the
>> books, especially not when their price is so much higher than when I
>> first bought them, but I was reading some of those intros and afterwards
>> in the bookstore the other day.
>>
>> Of course, there's no consistency, some of the juveniles are with one
>> publisher, who has republished them in trade paperback form, while the
>> other juveniles have gone to another publisher, which has republished
>> them in trade paperback, but with the forward and afterward. So they
>> don't all get the same treatment, a shame.
>>
>There are plenty of copies in used bookstores....
A friend of mine bought all Heinlein's juveniles in omnibus editions
put out by the Science Fiction Book Club. For the first in series, see
http://www.amazon.com/Four-Frontiers-Rocketship-Galileo-Planet/dp/0739453459/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
and check the "Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought" for the
rest. All are available used for decent prices.
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
said:
>On 07/25/2012 07:00 PM, Michael Black wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, jeanette wrote:
>>
>>> Librarian daughter is getting married this weekend and we are
>>> remodelling so bookshelf is "in transition" (as it seems is whole house)
>>> so I don't have time to look.
>>>
>>> Is it perhaps in one of the amendments to the newer editions of one of
>>> the books???
>>>
>>> For some reason I am thinking Podkayne. Star Best makes more sense but
>>> RAH was mad at what she had done to Red Planet so maybe there.
>>>
>> That's a good suggestion. I can't bring myself to buy another set of the
>> books, especially not when their price is so much higher than when I
>> first bought them, but I was reading some of those intros and afterwards
>> in the bookstore the other day.
>>
>> Of course, there's no consistency, some of the juveniles are with one
>> publisher, who has republished them in trade paperback form, while the
>> other juveniles have gone to another publisher, which has republished
>> them in trade paperback, but with the forward and afterward. So they
>> don't all get the same treatment, a shame.
>>
>There are plenty of copies in used bookstores....
put out by the Science Fiction Book Club. For the first in series, see
http://www.amazon.com/Four-Frontiers-Rocketship-Galileo-Planet/dp/0739453459/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
and check the "Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought" for the
rest. All are available used for decent prices.
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
Michael Stemper
Sep 7, 2012, 9:17:26 AM9/7/12
to
In article <p4rj481o36qb8749h...@4ax.com>, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:46:05 +0000 (UTC), an orbital mind-control laser caused mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) to write:
>>In article <d796a201-2882-43b8...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, bpral...@aol.com writes:
>>>Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: in a
>>>1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
>>>used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
>>>buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally.
>
>The version *I* recall is that, in replying to a fan letter accusing
>him of being a racist, Heinlein pointed out that he had a Negro hero
>in "Tunnel", but didn't specify the hero's gender. I've always taken
>that to mean Caroline Mshiyeni, not Rod Walker.
Is she the one described as being of Zulu extraction? If so, there's
>On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:46:05 +0000 (UTC), an orbital mind-control laser caused mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) to write:
>>In article <d796a201-2882-43b8...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, bpral...@aol.com writes:
>>>Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: in a
>>>1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
>>>used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
>>>buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally.
>
>The version *I* recall is that, in replying to a fan letter accusing
>him of being a racist, Heinlein pointed out that he had a Negro hero
>in "Tunnel", but didn't specify the hero's gender. I've always taken
>that to mean Caroline Mshiyeni, not Rod Walker.
another point in the book where Rod thinks of how she looks very much
like his sister. I think.
Michael Black
Sep 7, 2012, 9:37:03 AM9/7/12
to
More than once, I've seen someone and I can't place why they seem
familiar, until I realize their face or mannerisms are like someone I
know. I don't realize that initially because one is white, one is black.
But they don't look alike because they have the same skin color, they look
alike because they have something else in common despite different skin
color.
That line is not definite. To read it as such is to believe that skin
color is the only thing that matters, that I am the same as you because we
have white skin.
We tend to associate with people like us. That once meant same skin
color, but now that that's gone, the chances are that that black or asian
friend is like you are, something in common. I was talking to a woman a
few years ago who had an accent, sounded like she did grow up in Africa,
I'm not sure. But there were things we had in common, even spending time
as a child in a foreign country and picking up some of the country's
culture (since when you're a child, everything has impact on you). And I
would define her as more like me than a lot of other people, yet she is
very black.
Michael
gaeltach
Sep 8, 2012, 2:12:06 AM9/8/12
to
"Michael Black" <et...@ncf.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.12...@darkstar.example.net...
the same as yours (in fact, I brought that particular letter it to the
attention of this newsgroup when it appeared on *I think* eBay a few years
back now).
However, while Caroline's character is important, I didn't think one would
refer to her as a "hero" in the novel, but more as a "supporting character",
I would have thought.
Sean
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.12...@darkstar.example.net...
> On Fri, 7 Sep 2012, Michael Stemper wrote:
>
>> In article <p4rj481o36qb8749h...@4ax.com>, Chris Zakes
>> <dont...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:46:05 +0000 (UTC), an orbital mind-control laser
>>> caused mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) to write:
>>>> In article
>>>> <d796a201-2882-43b8...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
>>>> bpral...@aol.com writes:
>>
>>>>> Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: in a
>>>>> 1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
>>>>> used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
>>>>> buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally.
>>>
>>> The version *I* recall is that, in replying to a fan letter accusing
>>> him of being a racist, Heinlein pointed out that he had a Negro hero
>>> in "Tunnel", but didn't specify the hero's gender. I've always taken
>>> that to mean Caroline Mshiyeni, not Rod Walker.
>>
>> Is she the one described as being of Zulu extraction? If so, there's
>> another point in the book where Rod thinks of how she looks very much
>> like his sister. I think.
>>
> And we've been through this before.
I understand where you are coming from, and my recollection of the letter is
>
>> In article <p4rj481o36qb8749h...@4ax.com>, Chris Zakes
>> <dont...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:46:05 +0000 (UTC), an orbital mind-control laser
>>> caused mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) to write:
>>>> In article
>>>> <d796a201-2882-43b8...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
>>>> bpral...@aol.com writes:
>>
>>>>> Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: in a
>>>>> 1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
>>>>> used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
>>>>> buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally.
>>>
>>> The version *I* recall is that, in replying to a fan letter accusing
>>> him of being a racist, Heinlein pointed out that he had a Negro hero
>>> in "Tunnel", but didn't specify the hero's gender. I've always taken
>>> that to mean Caroline Mshiyeni, not Rod Walker.
>>
>> Is she the one described as being of Zulu extraction? If so, there's
>> another point in the book where Rod thinks of how she looks very much
>> like his sister. I think.
>>
> And we've been through this before.
the same as yours (in fact, I brought that particular letter it to the
attention of this newsgroup when it appeared on *I think* eBay a few years
back now).
However, while Caroline's character is important, I didn't think one would
refer to her as a "hero" in the novel, but more as a "supporting character",
I would have thought.
Sean
bpral...@aol.com
Sep 8, 2012, 10:56:29 AM9/8/12
to
On 7 Sep., 05:54, Chris Zakes <donti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:46:05 +0000 (UTC), an orbital mind-control
> laser caused mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) to write:
> On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:46:05 +0000 (UTC), an orbital mind-control
>
> >In article <d796a201-2882-43b8-98be-71611f978...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, bpral22...@aol.com writes:
> >>On Jul 22, 11:49=A0am, Joel Polowin <jpolo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> I've heard a number of times that Heinlein was intentionally slipping
> >>> a dirty joke past Alice Dalgliesh when he named _The Star Beast_'s
> >>> protagonist "John Thomas". =A0Is there any documentation of that,
> >>> such as a letter or a note in his files?
>
> >>Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: in a
> >>1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
> >>used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
> >>buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally.
>
> The version *I* recall is that, in replying to a fan letter accusing
> him of being a racist, Heinlein pointed out that he had a Negro hero
> in "Tunnel", but didn't specify the hero's gender. I've always taken
> that to mean Caroline Mshiyeni, not Rod Walker.
>
> Is there another, more specific letter, because there's a fair bit of
> evidence suggesting that Rod *wasn't* Negro.
>
> -Chris Zakes
> Texas
> --
>
> Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out.
>
> -Arthur C. Clarke, "The Nine Billion Names of God"
Heinein mentioned it only a few times, for the reason that if it
> >In article <d796a201-2882-43b8-98be-71611f978...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, bpral22...@aol.com writes:
> >>On Jul 22, 11:49=A0am, Joel Polowin <jpolo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> I've heard a number of times that Heinlein was intentionally slipping
> >>> a dirty joke past Alice Dalgliesh when he named _The Star Beast_'s
> >>> protagonist "John Thomas". =A0Is there any documentation of that,
> >>> such as a letter or a note in his files?
>
> >>Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: in a
> >>1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
> >>used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
> >>buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally.
>
> The version *I* recall is that, in replying to a fan letter accusing
> him of being a racist, Heinlein pointed out that he had a Negro hero
> in "Tunnel", but didn't specify the hero's gender. I've always taken
> that to mean Caroline Mshiyeni, not Rod Walker.
>
> Is there another, more specific letter, because there's a fair bit of
> evidence suggesting that Rod *wasn't* Negro.
>
> -Chris Zakes
> Texas
> --
>
> Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out.
>
> -Arthur C. Clarke, "The Nine Billion Names of God"
became widely realized, it would have subjected him to a very
inconvenient persecution. So far as I can tell, Miss Dalgliesh never
indicated whether she was as annoyed as Heinlein believes (but her
archivist has been in touch recently, and we'll see if she wrote to
someone else about it) -- but she did write things that indicate she
was sensitive to the possible impact on sales of a racially
heterogenous book. In reference to Tunnel in specific, she had
already worried that the vague implication that Australia had been
overrun by Asians might adversely affect sales in the Commonwealth.
The quotation I posted is rhe dispositive one for Rod being black..
(I don't think you can reasonaby construe him as saying that Caroline
Mshiyeni might have been the "hero" of the story -- In the simplified
story format of those juveniles, "hero" has to mean "viewpoint
character" (that is the character the story centers around) in the
parlance in use in the 1950's when he was doing them.) I don't think
there could have been any "smoking gun" for this, the way Starship
Troopers has, at the very end, a smoking gun for Johnny Rico being a
Filipino, given the mores of the time.
What is notable about the names in the classes of Tunnel is that it
implies a mix of race/cultural types that would have been quite
startling in the 1950's. In the world of America up to the 1960's,
(a) schools were still segregated; (b) there hadn't been quite so much
moving around yet, and there tended to be for any given locale _one_
minority that was the focus of community loathing (for my father, for
instance, who was born in 1932, in rural Missouri, it was "hunkies" --
Hungarians). Curiously, there were others, but they tended not to be
much on the radar.
Chris Zakes
Sep 8, 2012, 9:51:54 PM9/8/12
to
On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 13:17:26 +0000 (UTC), an orbital mind-control
>If so, there's
>another point in the book where Rod thinks of how she looks very much
>like his sister. I think.
Rod is speaking to his sister, Helen, about four pages from the end of
the final chapter. Here's the exact quote: "Shes's a big girl, even
bigger than you are--and she looks a bit like you."
And before anybody else brings it up, there's a bit in chapter 11
where Caroline says that Rod reminds her of her brother Rickie. But
are they talking facial features and skin color, or general build and
attitude in the case of the ladies and bumbling earnestness for the
guys?
laser caused mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) to write:
>In article <p4rj481o36qb8749h...@4ax.com>, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:46:05 +0000 (UTC), an orbital mind-control laser caused mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) to write:
>>>In article <d796a201-2882-43b8...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, bpral...@aol.com writes:
>
>>>>Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: in a
>>>>1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
>>>>used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
>>>>buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally.
>>
>>The version *I* recall is that, in replying to a fan letter accusing
>>him of being a racist, Heinlein pointed out that he had a Negro hero
>>in "Tunnel", but didn't specify the hero's gender. I've always taken
>>that to mean Caroline Mshiyeni, not Rod Walker.
>
>Is she the one described as being of Zulu extraction?
That's the one.
>In article <p4rj481o36qb8749h...@4ax.com>, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:46:05 +0000 (UTC), an orbital mind-control laser caused mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) to write:
>>>In article <d796a201-2882-43b8...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, bpral...@aol.com writes:
>
>>>>Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: in a
>>>>1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
>>>>used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
>>>>buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally.
>>
>>The version *I* recall is that, in replying to a fan letter accusing
>>him of being a racist, Heinlein pointed out that he had a Negro hero
>>in "Tunnel", but didn't specify the hero's gender. I've always taken
>>that to mean Caroline Mshiyeni, not Rod Walker.
>
>Is she the one described as being of Zulu extraction?
>If so, there's
>another point in the book where Rod thinks of how she looks very much
>like his sister. I think.
the final chapter. Here's the exact quote: "Shes's a big girl, even
bigger than you are--and she looks a bit like you."
And before anybody else brings it up, there's a bit in chapter 11
where Caroline says that Rod reminds her of her brother Rickie. But
are they talking facial features and skin color, or general build and
attitude in the case of the ladies and bumbling earnestness for the
guys?
Chris Zakes
Sep 8, 2012, 10:20:32 PM9/8/12
to
On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 07:56:29 -0700 (PDT), an orbital mind-control
laser caused bpral...@aol.com to write:
>On 7 Sep., 05:54, Chris Zakes <donti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:46:05 +0000 (UTC), �an orbital mind-control
>> laser caused mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) to write:
>>
>> >In article <d796a201-2882-43b8-98be-71611f978...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, bpral22...@aol.com writes:
>> >>On Jul 22, 11:49=A0am, Joel Polowin <jpolo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>> I've heard a number of times that Heinlein was intentionally slipping
>> >>> a dirty joke past Alice Dalgliesh when he named _The Star Beast_'s
>> >>> protagonist "John Thomas". =A0Is there any documentation of that,
>> >>> such as a letter or a note in his files?
>>
>> >>Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: �in a
>> >>1965 letter he wrote: �"In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
>> >>used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
>> >>buried the proof like clues in a detective story �Intentionally.
>>
>> The version *I* recall is that, in replying to a fan letter accusing
>> him of being a racist, Heinlein pointed out that he had a Negro hero
>> in "Tunnel", but didn't specify the hero's gender. I've always taken
>> that to mean Caroline Mshiyeni, not Rod Walker.
>>
>> Is there another, more specific letter, because there's a fair bit of
>> evidence suggesting that Rod *wasn't* Negro.
>>
>> � � � � -Chris Zakes
>> � � � � � � � � Texas
>
laser caused bpral...@aol.com to write:
>On 7 Sep., 05:54, Chris Zakes <donti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:46:05 +0000 (UTC), �an orbital mind-control
>> laser caused mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) to write:
>>
>> >In article <d796a201-2882-43b8-98be-71611f978...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, bpral22...@aol.com writes:
>> >>On Jul 22, 11:49=A0am, Joel Polowin <jpolo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>> I've heard a number of times that Heinlein was intentionally slipping
>> >>> a dirty joke past Alice Dalgliesh when he named _The Star Beast_'s
>> >>> protagonist "John Thomas". =A0Is there any documentation of that,
>> >>> such as a letter or a note in his files?
>>
>> >>Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: �in a
>> >>1965 letter he wrote: �"In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
>> >>used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
>> >>buried the proof like clues in a detective story �Intentionally.
>>
>> The version *I* recall is that, in replying to a fan letter accusing
>> him of being a racist, Heinlein pointed out that he had a Negro hero
>> in "Tunnel", but didn't specify the hero's gender. I've always taken
>> that to mean Caroline Mshiyeni, not Rod Walker.
>>
>> Is there another, more specific letter, because there's a fair bit of
>> evidence suggesting that Rod *wasn't* Negro.
>>
>> � � � � -Chris Zakes
>> � � � � � � � � Texas
>
the text is, at best, ambiguous on the subject.
Item: When Rod and Jackie first meet, he's described as "dressed only
in tan, scratches, torn and filthy shorts, and a few scars."
Item: When Rod gets back to Earth, and sees his freshly-recovered
father, he's described as looking "browned and healthy."
Item: When he has his first run-in with the McGowans, it says "Rod
flushed" and a little later "Rod felt himself turning red."
(Granted, black folks *can* tan and flush, but it's a lot less obvious
than on us melanin-deficent types.)
Item: When Rod is heading out with the pioneer party at the very end
of the book, he's described as wearing "a Bill Cody beard and rather
long hair" http://www.buffalosaloon.com/Bill%20Cody%202.jpg
(A black person *could* have hair like that, but it'd need some
chemical help.)
I've already discussed upthread the comments about Caroline Mshiyeni
"looking a bit like" Helen Walker and Rod reminding Caroline of her
brother Rickie.
ma...@thehickmans.us
Sep 9, 2012, 12:11:11 AM9/9/12
to
On Saturday, September 8, 2012 9:20:33 PM UTC-5, Chris Zakes wrote:
>
> I remain unconvinced that Heinlein intended Rod to be black, because
>
> the text is, at best, ambiguous on the subject.
> Item: When Rod and Jackie first meet, he's described as "dressed only
> in tan, scratches, torn and filthy shorts, and a few scars."
>
> Item: When Rod gets back to Earth, and sees his freshly-recovered
> father, he's described as looking "browned and healthy."
> Item: When he has his first run-in with the McGowans, it says "Rod
> flushed" and a little later "Rod felt himself turning red."
> (Granted, black folks *can* tan and flush, but it's a lot less obvious
>
> than on us melanin-deficent types.)
>
> Item: When Rod is heading out with the pioneer party at the very end
> of the book, he's described as wearing "a Bill Cody beard and rather
> long hair" http://www.buffalosaloon.com/Bill%20Cody%202.jpg
> (A black person *could* have hair like that, but it'd need some
> chemical help.)
> I've already discussed upthread the comments about Caroline Mshiyeni
> "looking a bit like" Helen Walker and Rod reminding Caroline of her
> brother Rickie.
Just wanted to note that only Jimmy Throxton got sunburned. Rod did not. Rod may have talked about having a suntan, but at the time of writing, "permanent suntan" was a way to describe black. Also Rod was called a cholo by the Mcgowans.
>
> I remain unconvinced that Heinlein intended Rod to be black, because
>
> the text is, at best, ambiguous on the subject.
> Item: When Rod and Jackie first meet, he's described as "dressed only
> in tan, scratches, torn and filthy shorts, and a few scars."
>
> Item: When Rod gets back to Earth, and sees his freshly-recovered
> father, he's described as looking "browned and healthy."
> Item: When he has his first run-in with the McGowans, it says "Rod
> flushed" and a little later "Rod felt himself turning red."
> (Granted, black folks *can* tan and flush, but it's a lot less obvious
>
> than on us melanin-deficent types.)
>
> Item: When Rod is heading out with the pioneer party at the very end
> of the book, he's described as wearing "a Bill Cody beard and rather
> long hair" http://www.buffalosaloon.com/Bill%20Cody%202.jpg
> (A black person *could* have hair like that, but it'd need some
> chemical help.)
> I've already discussed upthread the comments about Caroline Mshiyeni
> "looking a bit like" Helen Walker and Rod reminding Caroline of her
> brother Rickie.
My take is that the U.S. was depopulated by nuclear war and repopulated by African much the same way it was in _Farnham's Freehold_ (but not quite as divisively).
Also note that Jimmy Throxton was viewed patronizingly by Rod throughout the book.
We went through all this debate here several time before.
Bill Leary
Sep 9, 2012, 7:54:17 AM9/9/12
to
wrote in message
news:b745711d-0d93-4d1e...@googlegroups.com...
very easily. I can go to a pool party and sit in the shade for a few hours
and get a nasty sun burn. The others at the party having no problems at
all, even though they spent most of their time in the sun. I simply assumed
Jimmy, like me, was more susceptible to the sun than the others.
> Also Rod was called a cholo by the Mcgowans.
This is puts me in mind of darker skin, but I wouldn't have taken it as
"black." I though "cholo" indicated something like Native American or
Mexican. No?
- Bill
news:b745711d-0d93-4d1e...@googlegroups.com...
> Just wanted to note that only Jimmy Throxton got sunburned. Rod did not.
> Rod may have
> talked about having a suntan, but at the time of writing, "permanent
> suntan" was a way
> to describe black.
This one doesn't do anything for me in the discussion. I happen to burn
> Rod may have
> talked about having a suntan, but at the time of writing, "permanent
> suntan" was a way
> to describe black.
very easily. I can go to a pool party and sit in the shade for a few hours
and get a nasty sun burn. The others at the party having no problems at
all, even though they spent most of their time in the sun. I simply assumed
Jimmy, like me, was more susceptible to the sun than the others.
> Also Rod was called a cholo by the Mcgowans.
"black." I though "cholo" indicated something like Native American or
Mexican. No?
- Bill
Michael Black
Sep 9, 2012, 10:23:03 AM9/9/12
to
But maybe Heinlein was sloppy, having gleefully decided Rod would be
black, he forgot the details? Or maybe in sneaking the black character in
he felt a need to be really vague, so he deliberately put other things in
to allow an ambiguous interpretation.
My take is, in retrospect Heinlein decided there should be a black
character in there, so he turned Rod black in later years. Of course,
that forgets that Carolyn is clearly black (she's not "zulu-like", which
should have been enough at the time, not just a capable black person, but
a capable black woman.
Michael
Michael Black
Sep 9, 2012, 10:27:10 AM9/9/12
to
On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Bill Leary wrote:
> wrote in message
> news:b745711d-0d93-4d1e...@googlegroups.com...
>> Just wanted to note that only Jimmy Throxton got sunburned. Rod did not.
>> Rod may have
>> talked about having a suntan, but at the time of writing, "permanent
>> suntan" was a way
>> to describe black.
>
> This one doesn't do anything for me in the discussion. I happen to burn very
> easily. I can go to a pool party and sit in the shade for a few hours and
> get a nasty sun burn. The others at the party having no problems at all,
> even though they spent most of their time in the sun. I simply assumed
> Jimmy, like me, was more susceptible to the sun than the others.
>
Or pale because he didn't spend enough time outdoors (didn't Jimmy want to
> wrote in message
> news:b745711d-0d93-4d1e...@googlegroups.com...
>> Just wanted to note that only Jimmy Throxton got sunburned. Rod did not.
>> Rod may have
>> talked about having a suntan, but at the time of writing, "permanent
>> suntan" was a way
>> to describe black.
>
> This one doesn't do anything for me in the discussion. I happen to burn very
> easily. I can go to a pool party and sit in the shade for a few hours and
> get a nasty sun burn. The others at the party having no problems at all,
> even though they spent most of their time in the sun. I simply assumed
> Jimmy, like me, was more susceptible to the sun than the others.
>
back out of the test, or am I thinking of the friend in "Farmer in the
Sky" who suddenly decided (because his father told him) that going to
Ganymede was stupid?), so whatever his constitution, he'd be likley to get
sunburned. I can be pretty pale by the time spring comes along, I could
get sunburned if I lay still out in the sun, but instead I just walk and
the tan slowly builds up.
Michael
Chris Zakes
Sep 9, 2012, 11:38:09 AM9/9/12
to
On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 21:11:11 -0700 (PDT), an orbital mind-control
laser caused ma...@thehickmans.us to write:
>On Saturday, September 8, 2012 9:20:33 PM UTC-5, Chris Zakes wrote:
>>
>> I remain unconvinced that Heinlein intended Rod to be black, because
>>
>> the text is, at best, ambiguous on the subject.
>
>> Item: When Rod and Jackie first meet, he's described as "dressed only
>> in tan, scratches, torn and filthy shorts, and a few scars."
>>
>> Item: When Rod gets back to Earth, and sees his freshly-recovered
>> father, he's described as looking "browned and healthy."
>
>> Item: When he has his first run-in with the McGowans, it says "Rod
>> flushed" and a little later "Rod felt himself turning red."
>> (Granted, black folks *can* tan and flush, but it's a lot less obvious
>>
>> than on us melanin-deficent types.)
>>
>> Item: When Rod is heading out with the pioneer party at the very end
>> of the book, he's described as wearing "a Bill Cody beard and rather
>> long hair" http://www.buffalosaloon.com/Bill%20Cody%202.jpg
>> (A black person *could* have hair like that, but it'd need some
>> chemical help.)
>
>> I've already discussed upthread the comments about Caroline Mshiyeni
>> "looking a bit like" Helen Walker and Rod reminding Caroline of her
>> brother Rickie.
>
>Just wanted to note that only Jimmy Throxton got sunburned. Rod did not. Rod may have talked about having a suntan, but at the time of writing, "permanent suntan" was a way to describe black. Also Rod was called a cholo by the Mcgowans.
But if Google can be believed, "cholo" means Mexican, usually
laser caused ma...@thehickmans.us to write:
>On Saturday, September 8, 2012 9:20:33 PM UTC-5, Chris Zakes wrote:
>>
>> I remain unconvinced that Heinlein intended Rod to be black, because
>>
>> the text is, at best, ambiguous on the subject.
>
>> Item: When Rod and Jackie first meet, he's described as "dressed only
>> in tan, scratches, torn and filthy shorts, and a few scars."
>>
>> Item: When Rod gets back to Earth, and sees his freshly-recovered
>> father, he's described as looking "browned and healthy."
>
>> Item: When he has his first run-in with the McGowans, it says "Rod
>> flushed" and a little later "Rod felt himself turning red."
>> (Granted, black folks *can* tan and flush, but it's a lot less obvious
>>
>> than on us melanin-deficent types.)
>>
>> Item: When Rod is heading out with the pioneer party at the very end
>> of the book, he's described as wearing "a Bill Cody beard and rather
>> long hair" http://www.buffalosaloon.com/Bill%20Cody%202.jpg
>> (A black person *could* have hair like that, but it'd need some
>> chemical help.)
>
>> I've already discussed upthread the comments about Caroline Mshiyeni
>> "looking a bit like" Helen Walker and Rod reminding Caroline of her
>> brother Rickie.
>
>Just wanted to note that only Jimmy Throxton got sunburned. Rod did not. Rod may have talked about having a suntan, but at the time of writing, "permanent suntan" was a way to describe black. Also Rod was called a cholo by the Mcgowans.
low-caste, probably of mixed Spanish and Indian blood. *Not* black.
>My take is that the U.S. was depopulated by nuclear war and repopulated by African much the same way it was in _Farnham's Freehold_ (but not quite as divisively).
>Also note that Jimmy Throxton was viewed patronizingly by Rod throughout the book.
>We went through all this debate here several time before.
nice to see *some* traffic on the list.
-Chris Zakes
Texas
--
I ha' harpit ye up to the throne o' God,
I ha' harpit your midmost soul in three;
I ha' harpit ye down to the Hinges o' Hell,
And -- ye -- would -- make -- a Knight o' me!
-Rudyard Kipling, "The Last Rhyme of True Thomas"
gaeltach
Sep 9, 2012, 3:57:55 PM9/9/12
to
"Chris Zakes"
<snip>
> I remain unconvinced that Heinlein intended Rod to be black, because
> the text is, at best, ambiguous on the subject.
<snip>
Mrs Heinlein stated that RAH meant Rod Walker to be black. The text may be
ambiguous, but the intent should be easily acknowledged.
Sean
<snip>
> I remain unconvinced that Heinlein intended Rod to be black, because
> the text is, at best, ambiguous on the subject.
Mrs Heinlein stated that RAH meant Rod Walker to be black. The text may be
ambiguous, but the intent should be easily acknowledged.
Sean
Chris Zakes
Sep 10, 2012, 7:33:13 AM9/10/12
to
doubt her, but the term "revisionism" keeps popping into my head.
Michael Black
Sep 10, 2012, 11:08:55 AM9/10/12
to
On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Chris Zakes wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 05:57:55 +1000, an orbital mind-control laser
> caused "gaeltach" <hcat...@bigpond.com> to write:
>
>> "Chris Zakes"
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I remain unconvinced that Heinlein intended Rod to be black, because
>>> the text is, at best, ambiguous on the subject.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Mrs Heinlein stated that RAH meant Rod Walker to be black. The text may be
>> ambiguous, but the intent should be easily acknowledged.
>>
>> Sean
>
> Yes, but... wasn't that written *many* years after the fact? I hate to
> doubt her, but the term "revisionism" keeps popping into my head.
>
It's worth pointing out that "The Planet Strappers" by Raymond Z. Gallun
> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 05:57:55 +1000, an orbital mind-control laser
> caused "gaeltach" <hcat...@bigpond.com> to write:
>
>> "Chris Zakes"
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I remain unconvinced that Heinlein intended Rod to be black, because
>>> the text is, at best, ambiguous on the subject.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Mrs Heinlein stated that RAH meant Rod Walker to be black. The text may be
>> ambiguous, but the intent should be easily acknowledged.
>>
>> Sean
>
> Yes, but... wasn't that written *many* years after the fact? I hate to
> doubt her, but the term "revisionism" keeps popping into my head.
>
(it's at Project Gutenberg) has a definitely black character. It came out
in the late fifties or very early sixties.
When I found the book used about 20 years ago, I assumed it was a
juvenile. It has some teenage kids kind of bootstrapping themselves into
space. When I reread two weeks ago, I was less certain it was a
"juvenile", it still reads that way but there are things like them
smoking. It's hard to judge, since I can read Heinlein's juveniles as an
adult, don't think they are talking down to kids.
Anyway, there is a character and initially he's described in ambiguous
terms, but later the terms become more definite. He's black.
I don't know where that fits into analyzing Heinlein. I'm not sure I've
seen that many mentions of black people in science fiction, at least not
that era. On one hand, they weren't mentioned specifically, on the other
hand, everyone else was just generic, not mentioned as being white, just
assumed.
Michael
Chris Zakes
Sep 10, 2012, 10:18:40 PM9/10/12
to
top of my head...
Caroline Mshiyeni is described more than once as being a Zulu. I
presume that means she's black.
Helen Walker, in talking about her Amazon Corps going on night patrols
says something about darkening their skin if it isn't dark already.
In "Space Cadet" there's a comment about Lieutenant Peters being
black, and that nobody makes a big deal about it.
Dr. Worthington in "Magic Incorporated" is black.
Mr.Kiku in "The Star Beast" is black.
One of the Earthmen left to colonize Mars in "Stranger in a Strange
Land" is named Booker T. W. Jones. I *presume* he's black, because I
can't imagine a white kid in that time period being named after Booker
T. Washington.
In "The Puppet Masters" one of the submarine crew killed during the
attack on the Pass Christian saucer was named Booker T. W. Johnson.
The same presumption applies.
Note that the earliest of these references (Magic Inc.) was published
in 1940. The latest (Stranger) was published in 1961, three years
*before* the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
lal_truckee
Sep 10, 2012, 11:01:05 PM9/10/12
to
On 9/10/12 7:18 PM, Chris Zakes wrote:
> Mr.Kiku in "The Star Beast" is black.
Is that supported other than by suggestive name?
> Mr.Kiku in "The Star Beast" is black.
I've (irrationally) used the name to picture the character as African
extraction in my "personal space" while reading, but would feel
under-gunned to make the argument.
Message has been deleted
Bill Leary
Sep 11, 2012, 1:45:16 AM9/11/12
to
"lal_truckee" wrote in message news:k2m9hj$80m$1...@dont-email.me...
read the book in quite a while, but I think I based that on his name.
> I've (irrationally) used the name to picture the character
> as African extraction in my "personal space" while reading,
> but would feel under-gunned to make the argument.
Same here.
- Bill
> On 9/10/12 7:18 PM, Chris Zakes wrote:
>> Mr.Kiku in "The Star Beast" is black.
>
> Is that supported other than by suggestive name?
Funny (strange), but I'd always assumed he as of Asian descent. I haven't
>> Mr.Kiku in "The Star Beast" is black.
>
> Is that supported other than by suggestive name?
read the book in quite a while, but I think I based that on his name.
> I've (irrationally) used the name to picture the character
> as African extraction in my "personal space" while reading,
> but would feel under-gunned to make the argument.
- Bill
Bill Leary
Sep 11, 2012, 1:46:36 AM9/11/12
to
"gaeltach" wrote in message
news:Xw63s.1162$Wo3...@viwinnwfe02.internal.bigpond.com...
black? During planning? During early drafts? That is, it doesn't seem to
me that the story carries through on this "...meant to be..."
- Bill
news:Xw63s.1162$Wo3...@viwinnwfe02.internal.bigpond.com...
> Mrs Heinlein stated that RAH meant Rod Walker to be black. The
> text may be ambiguous, but the intent should be easily acknowledged.
Accepting that her memory was correct, at what point was he meant to be
> text may be ambiguous, but the intent should be easily acknowledged.
black? During planning? During early drafts? That is, it doesn't seem to
me that the story carries through on this "...meant to be..."
- Bill
Yisroel Markov
Sep 11, 2012, 9:38:44 AM9/11/12
to
On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:01:05 -0700, lal_truckee
<lal_t...@yahoo.com> said:
>On 9/10/12 7:18 PM, Chris Zakes wrote:
>> Mr.Kiku in "The Star Beast" is black.
>
>Is that supported other than by suggestive name?
Page 31 (1983 paperback edition): "Why had he ever left Africa?" Also,
<lal_t...@yahoo.com> said:
>On 9/10/12 7:18 PM, Chris Zakes wrote:
>> Mr.Kiku in "The Star Beast" is black.
>
>Is that supported other than by suggestive name?
Mr. Kiku's calming exercise is looking at real estate prospectuses
from Kenya.
He could've been a white African settler, of course...
>I've (irrationally) used the name to picture the character as African
>extraction in my "personal space" while reading, but would feel
>under-gunned to make the argument.
Michael Black
Sep 11, 2012, 10:05:50 AM9/11/12
to
On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Yisroel Markov wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:01:05 -0700, lal_truckee
> <lal_t...@yahoo.com> said:
>
>> On 9/10/12 7:18 PM, Chris Zakes wrote:
>>> Mr.Kiku in "The Star Beast" is black.
>>
>> Is that supported other than by suggestive name?
>
> Page 31 (1983 paperback edition): "Why had he ever left Africa?" Also,
> Mr. Kiku's calming exercise is looking at real estate prospectuses
> from Kenya.
>
> He could've been a white African settler, of course...
>
But the name sounds native. I can see a native picking up a white name
> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:01:05 -0700, lal_truckee
> <lal_t...@yahoo.com> said:
>
>> On 9/10/12 7:18 PM, Chris Zakes wrote:
>>> Mr.Kiku in "The Star Beast" is black.
>>
>> Is that supported other than by suggestive name?
>
> Page 31 (1983 paperback edition): "Why had he ever left Africa?" Also,
> Mr. Kiku's calming exercise is looking at real estate prospectuses
> from Kenya.
>
> He could've been a white African settler, of course...
>
along the way, find it harder to see a white picking up a native name.
Michael
Michael Stemper
Sep 11, 2012, 10:23:42 AM9/11/12
to
In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.12...@darkstar.example.net>, Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> writes:
>On Fri, 7 Sep 2012, Michael Stemper wrote:
>> In article <p4rj481o36qb8749h...@4ax.com>, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:46:05 +0000 (UTC), an orbital mind-control laser caused mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) to write:
>>>> In article <d796a201-2882-43b8...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, bpral...@aol.com writes:
>>>>> Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: in a
>>>>> 1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
>>>>> used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
>>>>> buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally.
>>>
>>> The version *I* recall is that, in replying to a fan letter accusing
>>> him of being a racist, Heinlein pointed out that he had a Negro hero
>>> in "Tunnel", but didn't specify the hero's gender. I've always taken
>>> that to mean Caroline Mshiyeni, not Rod Walker.
>>
>> Is she the one described as being of Zulu extraction? If so, there's
>> another point in the book where Rod thinks of how she looks very much
>> like his sister. I think.
>>
>And we've been through this before.
>
>More than once, I've seen someone and I can't place why they seem
>familiar, until I realize their face or mannerisms are like someone I
>know. I don't realize that initially because one is white, one is black.
>But they don't look alike because they have the same skin color, they look
>alike because they have something else in common despite different skin
>color.
Right. But, having different skin colors is going to reduce similarity
>On Fri, 7 Sep 2012, Michael Stemper wrote:
>> In article <p4rj481o36qb8749h...@4ax.com>, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:46:05 +0000 (UTC), an orbital mind-control laser caused mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) to write:
>>>> In article <d796a201-2882-43b8...@ql4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, bpral...@aol.com writes:
>>>>> Heinlein definitely did bury gimmicks like that in his texts: in a
>>>>> 1965 letter he wrote: "In another book (Tunnel in the Sky, 1955) I
>>>>> used a Negro boy as my hero -- but never mentioned his skin color and
>>>>> buried the proof like clues in a detective story Intentionally.
>>>
>>> The version *I* recall is that, in replying to a fan letter accusing
>>> him of being a racist, Heinlein pointed out that he had a Negro hero
>>> in "Tunnel", but didn't specify the hero's gender. I've always taken
>>> that to mean Caroline Mshiyeni, not Rod Walker.
>>
>> Is she the one described as being of Zulu extraction? If so, there's
>> another point in the book where Rod thinks of how she looks very much
>> like his sister. I think.
>>
>And we've been through this before.
>
>More than once, I've seen someone and I can't place why they seem
>familiar, until I realize their face or mannerisms are like someone I
>know. I don't realize that initially because one is white, one is black.
>But they don't look alike because they have the same skin color, they look
>alike because they have something else in common despite different skin
>color.
of appearance, not increase it.
>That line is not definite. To read it as such is to believe that skin
>color is the only thing that matters, that I am the same as you because we
>have white skin.
>
>We tend to associate with people like us. That once meant same skin
>color, but now that that's gone, the chances are that that black or asian
>friend is like you are, something in common.
things.
The real question, though, is "if Rod Walker's not shown to be black
because his sister looks similar to Zulu-descended friend of his, how
is he shown to be black?"
The closing description of him heading back to the stars with a Bill
Cody beard makes his ethnicity more questionable.
I'd never thought about the closing paragraphs in connection with this
issue before I did some review of the text over the weekend. Of course,
I had to have the Helen-Caroline connection pointed out to me, as well.
If I have to go back to thinking of him as being of totally unknown
ethnicity, it won't really keep me awake at night.
Yisroel Markov
Sep 11, 2012, 12:18:05 PM9/11/12
to
On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 10:05:50 -0400, Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> said:
>On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Yisroel Markov wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:01:05 -0700, lal_truckee
>> <lal_t...@yahoo.com> said:
>>
>>> On 9/10/12 7:18 PM, Chris Zakes wrote:
>>>> Mr.Kiku in "The Star Beast" is black.
>>>
>>> Is that supported other than by suggestive name?
>>
>> Page 31 (1983 paperback edition): "Why had he ever left Africa?" Also,
>> Mr. Kiku's calming exercise is looking at real estate prospectuses
>> from Kenya.
>>
>> He could've been a white African settler, of course...
>>
>But the name sounds native. I can see a native picking up a white name
>along the way, find it harder to see a white picking up a native name.
[nod] My mental picture of Mr. Kiku was always of a diminutive older
>On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Yisroel Markov wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:01:05 -0700, lal_truckee
>> <lal_t...@yahoo.com> said:
>>
>>> On 9/10/12 7:18 PM, Chris Zakes wrote:
>>>> Mr.Kiku in "The Star Beast" is black.
>>>
>>> Is that supported other than by suggestive name?
>>
>> Page 31 (1983 paperback edition): "Why had he ever left Africa?" Also,
>> Mr. Kiku's calming exercise is looking at real estate prospectuses
>> from Kenya.
>>
>> He could've been a white African settler, of course...
>>
>But the name sounds native. I can see a native picking up a white name
>along the way, find it harder to see a white picking up a native name.
black gentleman. A picture of him staring down (from below) the
Hroshii commander would be priceless :-)
ma...@thehickmans.us
Sep 11, 2012, 5:54:02 PM9/11/12
to
On Monday, September 10, 2012 6:33:51 AM UTC-5, Chris Zakes wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 05:57:55 +1000, an orbital mind-control laser
>
> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 05:57:55 +1000, an orbital mind-control laser
>
> caused "gaeltach" <hcatleag @ bigpond.com> to write:
>
>
>
> >"Chris Zakes"
>
> >
>
> ><snip>
>
> >
>
> >> I remain unconvinced that Heinlein intended Rod to be black, because
>
> >> the text is, at best, ambiguous on the subject.
>
> >
>
> ><snip>
>
> >
>
> >Mrs Heinlein stated that RAH meant Rod Walker to be black. The text may be
>
> >ambiguous, but the intent should be easily acknowledged.
>
> >
>
> >Sean
>
>
>
> Yes, but... wasn't that written *many* years after the fact? I hate to
>
> doubt her, but the term "revisionism" keeps popping into my head.
>
>
>
> -Chris Zakes
>
> Texas
>
> --
>
>
>
> I ha' harpit ye up to the throne o' God,
>
> I ha' harpit your midmost soul in three;
>
> I ha' harpit ye down to the Hinges o' Hell,
>
> And -- ye -- would -- make -- a Knight o' me!
>
>
>
> -Rudyard Kipling, "The Last Rhyme of True Thomas"
It is perhaps worth noting that Heinlein's GoH speech at the Denvention in 1941, he spoke specifically about the potential for reversing racial roles in the future. So the fact that any protagonist of Heinlein's turns out to be black should be no surprise. Especially from a novel written more than a dozen years after he made this observation.
>
>
>
> >"Chris Zakes"
>
> >
>
> ><snip>
>
> >
>
> >> I remain unconvinced that Heinlein intended Rod to be black, because
>
> >> the text is, at best, ambiguous on the subject.
>
> >
>
> ><snip>
>
> >
>
> >Mrs Heinlein stated that RAH meant Rod Walker to be black. The text may be
>
> >ambiguous, but the intent should be easily acknowledged.
>
> >
>
> >Sean
>
>
>
> Yes, but... wasn't that written *many* years after the fact? I hate to
>
> doubt her, but the term "revisionism" keeps popping into my head.
>
>
>
> -Chris Zakes
>
> Texas
>
> --
>
>
>
> I ha' harpit ye up to the throne o' God,
>
> I ha' harpit your midmost soul in three;
>
> I ha' harpit ye down to the Hinges o' Hell,
>
> And -- ye -- would -- make -- a Knight o' me!
>
>
>
> -Rudyard Kipling, "The Last Rhyme of True Thomas"
--
Matt Hickman
Sis must be thirtyish and the Deacon...why the Deacon
was _old_ -- probably past forty.
It did not seem quite decent.
But he did his best to make them feel he approved. After
he thought it over he decided that if two people, with their
lives behind them, wanted company in their old age, why it
was probably a good thing.
- Robert A. Heinlein (1907-1988)
_Tunnel in the Sky_ (c 1955)
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