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vepratoga: a conjectural identification

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Kate Gladstone

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Sep 19, 2006, 10:09:58 AM9/19/06
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Remember BEYOND THIS HORIZON and the POWs captured from the Khan's
genetically engineered super-army? They kept begging for "vepratoga"
- something they never got, because their captors never figured out
what this word referred to - and died without it (apparently from not
getting it).
Anagrammatize "vepratoga, vepratoga" and you can get this: "gave a
ravager top pot."
So I wonder ...

... could the Khan have genetically modified his slave-soldiers in such
a way that, if they didn't get sufficiently high-quality cannabis, they
would die?
The Khan's gengineers, after all, fundamentally altered at least
one other feature of human biochemistry: the slave-soldiers needed a
meal only evey few days.
(Note that military reasons for reducing a soldier's need for food
*could* include - beyond more obvious and usual logistic
considerations - keeping a reefer-dependent army safe from the
marijuana munchies.)

Since the gengineers could reduce the need, it doesn't seem beyond all
likelihood that they could have also created a genetic need for, in
effect, a Minimum Daily Requirement of "Maui Wowee"?
Two other Heinlein works, after all, show drug-dependency used for
slave-control: FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD (regular rations of "Happiness" for
the slaves) and (closer to the above possible explanation of
"vepratoga") LOGIC OF EMPIRE (Humphrey Wingate, "contract laborer" on
Venus, vows to avoid the local "happywater" but finds sleep impossible
on Venus without a nighttime slug of the stuff. This resembles my
suggested explanation of "vepratoga" in that Wingate, like the Khan's
soldiers, needs - just in order to go on functioning - something
that his masters made available. Making a given substance/process
absolutely necessary for a slave's continued function - and then
making sure that only a master can provide the slave with that
substance or process - makes escape very difficult ... and makes poor
work-performance a most unappealing option (because masters displeased
with poor performance may remove something which makes possible good
performance or even life itself.)

Of course, the fact that my anagram used the word twice (rather than
once, as standard for anagrams) does weaken my (weak enough!)
conjecture on "vepratoga" - unless ... did RAH state that the POWs
made *repeated* requests for "vepratoga"?
(I seem to recall that he did so state in BEYOND THIS HORIZON, but
I cannot check this at the moment: having lent out my copy. So, can
anyone else here please check to see whether RAH, in describing the
"vepratoga" affair. indeed explicitly states that the POWs asked more
than once for this substance/process/whatever that they died when they
didn't get?)

Kate Gladstone - http://www.learn.to/handwrite

David M. Silver

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Sep 19, 2006, 2:22:19 PM9/19/06
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In article <1158674998.0...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Kate Gladstone" <handwrit...@gmail.com> wrote:

> (I seem to recall that he did so state in BEYOND THIS HORIZON, but
> I cannot check this at the moment: having lent out my copy. So, can
> anyone else here please check to see whether RAH, in describing the
> "vepratoga" affair. indeed explicitly states that the POWs asked more
> than once for this substance/process/whatever that they died when they
> didn't get?)

Page 36 (in chapter 2) of _Beyond This Horizon_ (Gregg hard cover
edition, 1981):

The basic nature of their motivation has been termed "a substitute
for sex sublimination," but the tag does not explain it, nor did we
ever understand it. It is best described negatively by saying the
captured mules because insane and suicided in not over ten days time,
even though fed on captured rations. Before insanity set in they
would ask for something called _vepratoga_ in their tongue, but our
semanticists could discover no process referent for the term.

This was Mordan lecturing in the conversation with Hamilton in which he
tries to convince Hamilton to breed because Hamilton is a "star line."

The word "repeatedly" isn't used, but in context it is not denied,
either.

--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

Tian

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Sep 19, 2006, 3:01:03 PM9/19/06
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Kate Gladstone wrote:
> Remember BEYOND THIS HORIZON and the POWs captured from the Khan's
> genetically engineered super-army? They kept begging for "vepratoga"
> - something they never got, because their captors never figured out
> what this word referred to - and died without it (apparently from not
> getting it).
> Anagrammatize "vepratoga, vepratoga" and you can get this: "gave a
> ravager top pot."
> So I wonder ...
>
> ... could the Khan have genetically modified his slave-soldiers in such
> a way that, if they didn't get sufficiently high-quality cannabis, they
> would die?
> The Khan's gengineers, after all, fundamentally altered at least
> one other feature of human biochemistry: the slave-soldiers needed a
> meal only evey few days.
> (Note that military reasons for reducing a soldier's need for food
> *could* include - beyond more obvious and usual logistic
> considerations - keeping a reefer-dependent army safe from the
> marijuana munchies.)
>
> Since the gengineers could reduce the need, it doesn't seem beyond all
> likelihood that they could have also created a genetic need for, in
> effect, a Minimum Daily Requirement of "Maui Wowee"?

I never associated that passage with pot. I was thinking more along the
lines of Heroin or some other chemical that was incredibly addicting
instead of just habit forming. People without THC just wish they had it.
People without opiates get very painful withdrawl symptoms.

I also was given a pause by the exoctic death the need for the drug
(or whatever it was) caused. I had visions of drooling loonies banging
their heads on the wall until their brains couldn't twitch their neck
muscles any more.

--
Tian
http://tianharter.org
Tian Harter for City Council
P.O. Box 391854
Mountain View CA 94039-1854

Dr. Rufo

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Sep 19, 2006, 3:13:37 PM9/19/06
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David M. Silver wrote:
> In article <1158674998.0...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Kate Gladstone" <handwrit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> (I seem to recall that he did so state in BEYOND THIS HORIZON, but
>>I cannot check this at the moment: having lent out my copy. So, can
>>anyone else here please check to see whether RAH, in describing the
>>"vepratoga" affair. indeed explicitly states that the POWs asked more
>>than once for this substance/process/whatever that they died when they
>>didn't get?)
>
>
> Page 36 (in chapter 2) of _Beyond This Horizon_ (Gregg hard cover
> edition, 1981):
>
> The basic nature of their motivation has been termed "a substitute
> for sex sublimination," but the tag does not explain it, nor did we
> ever understand it. It is best described negatively by saying the
> captured mules because insane and suicided in not over ten days time,
> even though fed on captured rations. Before insanity set in they
> would ask for something called _vepratoga_ in their tongue, but our
> semanticists could discover no process referent for the term.
>
> This was Mordan lecturing in the conversation with Hamilton in which he
> tries to convince Hamilton to breed because Hamilton is a "star line."
>
> The word "repeatedly" isn't used, but in context it is not denied,
> either.
>

First, thank you, Kate, for lighting a candle in this darkness.

Next, thank you, Dave for the citation of the relevant text. [I
believe, you mis-typed "because" for "became."]

Now, here's a riff in return:
To my old eyes, "vepratoga" may easily result from an only slightly
skewed combination of two Latin words: "Verpa" and "Toga."
"Verpa" appears in the names of several species of mushroom [as
"verpa conica" and "verpa bohemica"] and [according to some sources]
was used as slang in Republican Rome for the primary male genital
organ. Caesar Dictator [among others, used it in referring to the
soldiers of his legions during his pre-battle strategy speeches.]
"Toga," of course, names the primary outer garment worn only by
Roman male citizens from the time of the Kings through at least the
Early Empire. [Marcus Terentius Varro suggests in his "De Lingua
Latina" that the name of the garment derives from the verb "tego,
tegere, texi, tectum" which, among others, means "to cover."]
RAH's conflation of the two, supported by Dave's textual citation,
seems to be suggesting a "covering of the male." That is, perhaps, a
*replacement* for sexual stimulation for the Khan's mules. A
replacement so strong and addictive that the mules literally
couldn't live without it.

Here endeth my riff.

Pax,
Rufe

David Wright Sr.

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Sep 19, 2006, 4:24:44 PM9/19/06
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"Dr. Rufo" <bay...@mindspring.com> wrote in news:BjXPg.9727$v%4.5442
@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

(snip)

> To my old eyes, "vepratoga" may easily result from an only slightly
> skewed combination of two Latin words: "Verpa" and "Toga."
>

Not unlikely at all as 'r/l' and 'p/b' preceded or followed by a vowel
commonly metathesize as OE 'brid'-->English 'bird', Russian
'gorod' -->'grad' in place names such as Petrograd, English 'milk' cognate
with Russian 'moloko', so 'verpa' could easily --> 'vrepa'.

--
David Wright Sr.
If you haven't joined the Society, Why Not?
http://heinleinsociety.org/join.html

Keep Up with the Latest
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/updates.html

Benefit The Heinlein Society by ordering anything from Amazon
thru our link on http://heinleinsociety.org/Amazon.html

Kate Gladstone

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Sep 19, 2006, 10:59:38 PM9/19/06
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Thanks to all who have contributed their (in most cases, considerable!)
linguistic and other erudition re "vepratoga"! Rufo's speculations make
better sense than mine. ("Not hard to manage," groans a chorus
off-stage ... )

Re "sex sublimination" (in the passage quoted by David) - I can't
find "sublimination" in dictionaries (checking only English
dictionaries - well, my high school didn't offer Khan army lingo). It
looks like a slip for "sublimation," so I hope Dave can double-check
this.


Kate Gladstone - handwrit...@gmail.com -
http://www.learn.to/handwrite

jeanette

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Sep 19, 2006, 11:56:52 PM9/19/06
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I have said before that although I have read BTH more than a couple
times, I find it very forgettable.

I didn't remember anything of the mentioned incident until David quoted
the passage and then had a flash that I had thought they were requesting
something like last rites.

That was my impression based on thin air.

Jeanette

Tian

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Sep 20, 2006, 3:15:55 AM9/20/06
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For some reason that definition gets me thinking about what in Brazil
are refered to as "little shirts."

> RAH's conflation of the two, supported by Dave's textual citation,
> seems to be suggesting a "covering of the male." That is, perhaps, a
> *replacement* for sexual stimulation for the Khan's mules. A replacement
> so strong and addictive that the mules literally couldn't live without it.
>
> Here endeth my riff.

I'm feeling like you nailed the roots of the word dead on. Your answer
fits with Heinlein's MO so well. I'm choking on the idea of mules that
need sexual stimulation. Doesn't seem to make sense somehow.

Leanna

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Sep 20, 2006, 4:20:34 AM9/20/06
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"Tian" <tnha...@ispwest.com> wrote in message
news:eeqp9...@enews2.newsguy.com...
> <snip>

>
> I'm choking on the idea of mules that
> need sexual stimulation. Doesn't seem to make sense somehow.
>

Are mules asexual, or merely sterile? The one doesn't NOT equal the other, as
Heinlein would hasten to point out.

Leanna


Bookman

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Sep 20, 2006, 7:49:38 AM9/20/06
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 08:20:34 GMT, "Leanna" <lmk...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Well, they don't breed, but they have genders.

http://www.lovelongears.com/about_mules.html

Talks about the results of breeding mules, so one may presume they are
"functional", if not fertile. GIYF

In TEFL, there were mutant mules, and among other things, they could
breed.

Regards,

--
Rusty the bookman
WWFSMD?
http://www.venganza.org/

"The difference between food and beer is that beer
has some food value, while food has no beer value"
- Linda the waitress

David M. Silver

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Sep 20, 2006, 9:15:34 AM9/20/06
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In article <dea2h25374mgefml9...@4ax.com>,
Bookman <thebo...@kc.rr.comNULL> wrote:

> Well, they don't breed, but they have genders.
>
> http://www.lovelongears.com/about_mules.html
>
> Talks about the results of breeding mules, so one may presume they are
> "functional", if not fertile. GIYF

Rather, they aren't bred. There's one thing your article doesn't talk
about different between a mule and a hinney. A hinney, offspring of a
stallion horse and donkey jennet, while as much a hybrid as is a mule,
offspring of a stallion jack and a horse mare, is usual _not_ sterile.

When I was a kid, there were books in the library I read that reported
about a lot of hybrid crosses, ligers, and so on, and attempts to cross
breed hybrids to establish a species that might breed true; and there
was a section in at least one reporting about actual attempts to breed
the "one in a million" (according to your article, although "very, very
rare" is merely what the books said) fertile mare mule to a hinney
stallion. There were a lot more mules and hinneys around in the time
these books were written and experiments conducted, but the result was
too few crosses resulted in foal that eventually might breed themselves.

Heinlein, from Missouri, where there were rather more mules and hinneys
than elsewhere, and in his time, much closer to the 19th century than
me, probably knew from personal reports or observation of cross attempts
to breed a fertile strain of mules-hinneys; hence, Buck and Beulah, et
al.

If I really wanted to know for certain, I'd check with the University of
Missouri for records of 19th century or early 20th century attempts to
breed a hinney-mule cross in an attempt to establish a hybrid species.

Kate Gladstone

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Sep 20, 2006, 10:47:11 AM9/20/06
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Whatever the etymology, "vepratoga" might (folks here conjecture) refer
to:

/a/ something like a drug

/b/ a ritual - "something like 'last rites' " - that the
soldiers needed, or strongly believed they needed, to have done for
them

/c/ some substitute for/sublimation of sex

Heinlein's text, and Rufe's conjectured etymology, supports /c/ - but
this does not rule out the other possibilities, separately or in some
combination.
"Vepratoga" could refer to /c/ produced by some combination of /a/
with /b. Since military training in most societies (so I hear) involves
applied psychologiy of various sorts, the Khan would probably not have
neglected psychological conditioning in the rearing and indoctrination
of his troops. Producing a desired effect (sublimation of the sex urge)
may have involved a drug combined with a ritual that the soldiers'
training and genetic engineering had conditioned them to respond to:
even without gengineering, people respond powerfully to rituals/symbols
that their training has made significant to them.

Suppose that Khan gengineering produced extremely high levels of
testosterone and adrenalin. In combat, this would vastly increase the
soldier's propensity for rape/pillage/violence/all-around
_schrecklichkeit_ (contributing to Khan victories-by-terror) ... but
between battles, it could pose a problem.
Even without hormonal gengineering, soldiers in between military
engagements grow bored and frustrated and troublesome in many ways -
at least, so I gather from the movies (I have never gone to war.) If
the Khan's soldiers had vastly more testosterone and adrenalin than
normal humans, they would presumably grow vastly more frustrated and
troublesome than ordinary soldiers during the long weeks and months
between battles: making it useful for the officers to have some VERY
powerful way to keep their enlisted men (and themselves) under control
when/where rape/pillage/nastiness did not further any military aim.
Powerful drives need something even more powerful to counter them: and
drugs & ritual form a most powerful combination (used by many human
societies during history, and probably before history). So ...
... what if "vepratoga" consisted of a very potent drug combined
with a very potent ritual - potent, for the Khan's soldiers, because
of life-long ritual indoctrination to believe in the ritual and to
consider it powerful?
What if correct/believable/believed-in (and therefore effective)
performance of "vepratoga" requires, not only the proper drug and
dosage, but also the presence and ritual action of a Khan officer of a
certain rank - just as rituals of a myriad faiths require the
presence and ritual action of a properly authorized
priest/priestess/shaman/what-have-you, and lack validity in the
believer's eyes? If unauthorized personnel prepare/perform the
ceremony, the believer considers it invalid & it will therefore lack
the desired psychological [psychosomatic?] effect on the believer ...
so, if "vepratoga" involved a performance component (performable only
by authorized Khan army personnel) along with a pharmaceutical one,
then quite possibly the captors of Khan POWs could not have provided an
actual, working "vepratoga" under any circumstances.
(NOTE to all here who follow religious rituals of any sort: I
leave it an open question whether any religious ritual has other than a
psychosomatic effect. However, those who believe in the theological
power of any religious ritual generally also recognize its
psychosomatic power on those reared and trained in the religion.)

Puppet_Sock

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Sep 20, 2006, 1:15:06 PM9/20/06
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Dr. Rufo wrote:
> Now, here's a riff in return:
> To my old eyes, "vepratoga" may easily result from an only slightly
> skewed combination of two Latin words: "Verpa" and "Toga."
> "Verpa" appears in the names of several species of mushroom [as
[snip]

> "Toga," of course, names the primary outer garment worn only by
[snip]

I picked up on the "toga" part fairly quickly. I tried to figure some
way that the "vepra" part could have something to do with windows,
but didn't manage it. "Window dressing" would have been pretty
snappy if it could have worked, but it didn't seem to.

I also tried to split the word up into "veprat" and "oga" but didn't
find a satisfactory match anywhere. Languages are not my thing.
I have trouble enough stumbling through English.
Socks

Phil Brown

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Sep 20, 2006, 3:04:53 PM9/20/06
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I have no suggestions on the etymology, but seeing this prompts the
thought that the Khan's soldiers might very well have been the models
for the JemHadar warriors in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, who were
similarly engineered to stay in line by the Dominion, needing a
substance called (sp?) Tetracell White to stay alive.

Of course, it's an idea that could occur independently to an SF writer
- it's not necessarily a "borrowing" with RAH's serial numbers filed
off.

harryfmudd [AT] comcast [DOT] net

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Sep 21, 2006, 3:10:01 PM9/21/06
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Kate Gladstone wrote:
> Whatever the etymology, "vepratoga" might (folks here conjecture) refer
> to:
>
> /a/ something like a drug
>
> /b/ a ritual - "something like 'last rites' " - that the
> soldiers needed, or strongly believed they needed, to have done for
> them
>
> /c/ some substitute for/sublimation of sex
>

<snip content="in-depth discussion of a, b, and c" />

What if "vepra" = "verpa" = Dutch "werpa" = English "throw", and all
they needed was to throw a toga party? All the elements are there:
drugs, rituals, sex.

Tom Wyant

Puppet_Sock

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Sep 21, 2006, 3:50:43 PM9/21/06
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harryfmudd [AT] comcast [DOT] net wrote:
[snip]

> What if "vepra" = "verpa" = Dutch "werpa" = English "throw", and all
> they needed was to throw a toga party? All the elements are there:
> drugs, rituals, sex.

Heh heh. So now we know what the RAH fan party at Worldcon is
supposed to look like.
Socks

TreetopAngel

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Sep 21, 2006, 6:51:45 PM9/21/06
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"Puppet_Sock" wrote:

But can you imagine what it will look like at the Cenntennial Party???

And I won't be wearing a toga...

E!

William Hughes

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Sep 21, 2006, 8:04:44 PM9/21/06
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hmmm....

RB
--
Money can't buy happiness, but it can let you rent it for a while...

Tian

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Sep 22, 2006, 3:20:49 AM9/22/06
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harryfmudd [AT] comcast [DOT] net wrote:

(The peanut gallery begins to chant) To-Ga! To-Ga! To-Ga!

harryfmudd [AT] comcast [DOT] net

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Sep 22, 2006, 6:08:45 PM9/22/06
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Better and better <ogle />

Tom Wyant

Steve Collins

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Sep 24, 2006, 4:06:49 PM9/24/06
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In the Pournelle/Niven novel "The Mote in God's Eye," the moties die if they
do not become pregnant on a regular schedule. One of the moties also
indicates that they die if they abstain from sex (as the puritanical heroine
suggested as a possible solution to their overpopulation problem).

In ST:DS9, the soldiers of the Dominion had to have access to a drug
available only through their masters, or they would go into withdrawal and
die. VEPRATOGA does have have to refer to any particular known drug, but to
a genetically modified or totally synthetic one; it could also refer to
something as technologically advanced as the Borg "rejuvinaation chanbers."

VSC


Chris Zakes

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Sep 24, 2006, 4:29:10 PM9/24/06
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Or, for that matter, the dinosaurs in Crichton's "Jurassic Park". I
forget the details, but they were genetically modified to be lacking
some essential amino acid(?) that was then supplied in their food. Iif
they escaped the confines of the island (and it's properly-enhanced
food supply) they would die fairly quickly

-Chris Zakes
Texas

Any excuse is a good excuse to wear a sword.

Zeb Carter in "The Number of the Beast" by Robert Heinlein

Dr. Rufo

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Sep 24, 2006, 5:28:14 PM9/24/06
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Chris Zakes wrote:
< snip >


> Or, for that matter, the dinosaurs in Crichton's "Jurassic Park". I
> forget the details, but they were genetically modified to be lacking
> some essential amino acid(?) that was then supplied in their food. Iif
> they escaped the confines of the island (and it's properly-enhanced
> food supply) they would die fairly quickly

Although they were bred to be "lysine"-deficient the Crichtonosaurs
did manage to change/evolve/mutate beyond that (I can't recall the
details from my wetware.) and *didn't* die and *did* get off the island.
'Cause a good author puts his/her creations into situations which
creatively prod the action of the story?

Rufe

Nohbody

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Sep 24, 2006, 5:47:03 PM9/24/06
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Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> made an infinite number of monkeys
bang out the following:

> On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 15:06:49 -0500, an orbital mind-control laser
> caused "Steve Collins" <eye...@centurytel.net> to write:
>
> >
> >In the Pournelle/Niven novel "The Mote in God's Eye," the moties die if they
> >do not become pregnant on a regular schedule. One of the moties also
> >indicates that they die if they abstain from sex (as the puritanical heroine
> >suggested as a possible solution to their overpopulation problem).
> >
> >In ST:DS9, the soldiers of the Dominion had to have access to a drug
> >available only through their masters, or they would go into withdrawal and
> >die. VEPRATOGA does have have to refer to any particular known drug, but to
> >a genetically modified or totally synthetic one; it could also refer to
> >something as technologically advanced as the Borg "rejuvinaation chanbers."
>

> Or, for that matter, the dinosaurs in Crichton's "Jurassic Park". I
> forget the details, but they were genetically modified to be lacking
> some essential amino acid(?) that was then supplied in their food. Iif
> they escaped the confines of the island (and it's properly-enhanced
> food supply) they would die fairly quickly

lysine was the component (I'm not sure on the technical name, either) in
question.

(I was bored and re-read JP, a while back.)

Dan Poore
--
About the only difference between the wingnuts on each end of the
[political] spectrum is *which* civil right(s) they think we can do
without. -- Rowan Hawthorn, in alt.callahans (2/28/05)

Nohbody

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Sep 24, 2006, 6:55:37 PM9/24/06
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"Dr. Rufo" <bay...@mindspring.com> made an infinite number of monkeys
bang out the following:

>
>

> Chris Zakes wrote:
> < snip >
> > Or, for that matter, the dinosaurs in Crichton's "Jurassic Park". I
> > forget the details, but they were genetically modified to be lacking
> > some essential amino acid(?) that was then supplied in their food. Iif
> > they escaped the confines of the island (and it's properly-enhanced
> > food supply) they would die fairly quickly
>
> Although they were bred to be "lysine"-deficient the Crichtonosaurs
> did manage to change/evolve/mutate beyond that (I can't recall the
> details from my wetware.) and *didn't* die and *did* get off the island.

They got the missing lysine, at least according to a rumor mentioned at
the very end of the book, by eating animals that tended to be rich in
that particular substance.

Dr. Rufo

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Sep 25, 2006, 2:01:47 PM9/25/06
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Nohbody wrote:

> "Dr. Rufo" <bay...@mindspring.com> made an infinite number of monkeys
> bang out the following:
>
>
>>
>>Chris Zakes wrote:
>> < snip >
>>
>>>Or, for that matter, the dinosaurs in Crichton's "Jurassic Park". I
>>>forget the details, but they were genetically modified to be lacking
>>>some essential amino acid(?) that was then supplied in their food. Iif
>>>they escaped the confines of the island (and it's properly-enhanced
>>>food supply) they would die fairly quickly
>>
>>
>> Although they were bred to be "lysine"-deficient the Crichtonosaurs
>>did manage to change/evolve/mutate beyond that (I can't recall the
>>details from my wetware.) and *didn't* die and *did* get off the island.
>
>
> They got the missing lysine, at least according to a rumor mentioned at
> the very end of the book, by eating animals that tended to be rich in
> that particular substance.
>
> Dan Poore

Thank you. I appreciate you taking the trouble to provide the details.

Rufe

Vance P. Frickey

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Sep 27, 2006, 2:43:07 PM9/27/06
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It might be that RAH had been aware of physiologist James
Olds' discovery (at about the same time as RAH wrote /BTH/)
of an area of the brain that when stimulated by electrical
current, provoked signs of intense pleasure in rats - and
when rats wired with electrodes in that area were provided
with a bar in their cage that would provide a voltage to
that area, they would press the bar continuously - ignoring
food, water, estrous females - until they died of
starvation/dehydration.

Olds' electrical stimulation meets most of the criteria for
RAH's "vepratoga" - a powerful positive stimulus which
overrides normal human drives and which provides
compensation for lack of other, more conventional stimuli
such as orgasm.

And if "vepratoga" was indeed stimulation of the "pleasure
cortex," perhaps by use of magnetic or gravitic pulses to
excite certain neurons, it would leave no indication to the
captors of the "mules" as to what vepratoga was or how it
might be provided. Indeed, to maintain control over the
"mules," their masters would probably prefer to conceal this
knowledge in order to have exclusive control over this
essential stimulation.

The severe mental disturbances and deaths of the "mules" who
could not get "vepratoga" could be owing to a severe
withdrawal syndrome in which certain neurotransmitters
created by vepratoga were absent, after a while causing
something like serotonin syndrome (which can also be fatal
under certain circumstances).

Of course, this is all conjectural - did RAH know about
Olds' work when he was writing /BTH/?
--
Vance P. Frickey
remove "safety" from listed Email address to send mail

"There is an uncomfortable similarity between Damocles, who
had
everything but security, and the West today. The main
difference is
that Damocles could see the sword that threatened him and
the thin
thread that restrained it, while today both sword and thread
seem
unreal to all too many." Herman Kahn, /On Thermonuclear
War/.


Vance P. Frickey

unread,
Sep 27, 2006, 2:55:15 PM9/27/06
to

This reminds me more of the sort of withdrawal syndrome
which occurs after experimental subjects are given
endorphins, then denied them. Endorphin withdrawal can be
fatal... if vepratoga is a procedure/ritual/drug which
maintains endorphin levels in the "mules," going without it
would produce the symptoms RAH describes.

Remember the Assassins? The name is a corruption of the
word /Hashishim/ - "hashish takers." These Muslim fanatics
were segregated in a walled garden prior to being sent out
to kill, given hashish (concentrated resin from marijuana),
access to tasty foods, wine and women, and told that this
would be their reward for dying in the service of their
faith (sound familiar, guys?).

Word of mouth seems to be doing the trick among Islamist
fanatics these days, but we may well see the day when
religious fervor is augmented by pharmaceutical or
physiological means to create the perfect murdering fanatic.
Another "prediction" for RAH?

Vance P. Frickey

unread,
Sep 27, 2006, 3:01:46 PM9/27/06
to

Such rituals might provide enhanced production of certain
neurotransmitters or neurotransmitter precursors -
endorphins, dopamine, serotonin - which might be synergistic
with other drugs or treatments to provide the desired
effect, say enhanced suggestibility, manageability,
resistance to hunger, cold and pain. We're just beginning
to learn what we can achieve with dopamine agonists along
those lines - or what we /can't/ achieve in the case of,
say, Redux.

Vance P. Frickey

unread,
Sep 27, 2006, 3:09:07 PM9/27/06
to

Interesting side note - "jemadar" was a rank for native
soldiers in the Indian army corresponding to "lieutenant" in
the British Royal Army - this was one of several Hindi and
Pushtu words which, like "ferengi" (a perjorative word for
"foreigner" in Pashtu, Thai, and some other languages), has
crept into the post-TOS Star Trek lexicon.

http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/jemadar

Joe Bednorz

unread,
Sep 28, 2006, 8:09:06 AM9/28/06
to
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:55:15 -0600, Vance P. Frickey wrote:

>
>Remember the Assassins? The name is a corruption of the
>word /Hashishim/ - "hashish takers." These Muslim fanatics
>were segregated in a walled garden prior to being sent out
>to kill, given hashish (concentrated resin from marijuana),
>access to tasty foods, wine and women, and told that this
>would be their reward for dying in the service of their
>faith (sound familiar, guys?).
>

<http://groups.google.com/group/news.admin.net-abuse.email/msg/8daa379ae87e88e9?&hl=en>

Scroll down to:

"Headline News *Ex-suicide bombers blast virgins-for-martyrs swindle*"

Put down your coffee and get the cat off of you lap before reading past that.
Not work safe if ROTFALYAO will get you in trouble.


--
SF at gutenberg: <http://thethunderchild.com/Books/OutofCopyright.html>
Baen Free Online SciFi: <http://www.baen.com/library/>
Baen Free SciFi CDs <http://files.plebian.net/baencd/>
SciFi.com classic/original: <http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/archive.html>
Free SF samples from Baen and Tor: <http://www.webscription.net/catalog.asp>
All the best, Joe Bednorz

Vance P. Frickey

unread,
Oct 3, 2006, 6:38:47 PM10/3/06
to
Joe Bednorz wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:55:15 -0600, Vance P. Frickey
> wrote:
>
>> Remember the Assassins? The name is a corruption of the
>> word /Hashishim/ - "hashish takers." These Muslim
>> fanatics
>> were segregated in a walled garden prior to being sent
>> out
>> to kill, given hashish (concentrated resin from
>> marijuana),
>> access to tasty foods, wine and women, and told that this
>> would be their reward for dying in the service of their
>> faith (sound familiar, guys?).
>
> <http://groups.google.com/group/news.admin.net-abuse.email/msg/8daa379ae87e88e9?&hl=en>
>
> Scroll down to:
>
> "Headline News *Ex-suicide bombers blast
> virgins-for-martyrs
> swindle*"
>
> Put down your coffee and get the cat off of you lap
> before reading
> past that. Not work safe if ROTFALYAO will get you in
> trouble.

<action: chuckle>

Quoting from "Virgins? What Virgins?"
Ibn Warraq, /the Guardian/, 12 January 2002:
"Christoph Luxenberg's book, Die Syro-Aramaische Lesart des
Koran, available only in German, came out just over a year
ago, but has already had an enthusiastic reception,
particularly among those scholars with a knowledge of
several Semitic languages at Princeton, Yale, Berlin,
Potsdam, Erlangen, Aix-en-Provence, and the Oriental
Institute in Beirut.

Luxenberg tries to show that many obscurities of the Koran
disappear if we read certain words as being Syriac and not
Arabic. We cannot go into the technical details of his
methodology but it allows Luxenberg, to the probable horror
of all Muslim males dreaming of sexual bliss in the Muslim
hereafter, to conjure away the wide-eyed houris promised to
the faithful in suras XLIV.54; LII.20, LV.72, and LVI.22.
Luxenberg 's new analysis, leaning on the Hymns of Ephrem
the Syrian, yields "white raisins" of "crystal clarity"
rather than doe-eyed, and ever willing virgins - the houris.
Luxenberg claims that the context makes it clear that it is
food and drink that is being offerred, and not unsullied
maidens or houris.

In Syriac, the word hur is a feminine plural adjective
meaning white, with the word "raisin" understood implicitly.
Similarly, the immortal, pearl-like ephebes or youths of
suras such as LXXVI.19 are really a misreading of a Syriac
expression meaning chilled raisins (or drinks) that the just
will have the pleasure of tasting in contrast to the boiling
drinks promised the unfaithful and damned.

As Luxenberg's work has only recently been published we must
await its scholarly assessment before we can pass any
judgements. But if his analysis is correct then suicide
bombers, or rather prospective martyrs, would do well to
abandon their culture of death, and instead concentrate on
getting laid 72 times in this world, unless of course they
would really prefer chilled or white raisins, according to
their taste, in the next."

Beware The Del Monte Jihad....

Vance P. Frickey

unread,
Oct 3, 2006, 7:08:46 PM10/3/06
to
Joe Bednorz wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:55:15 -0600, Vance P. Frickey
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Remember the Assassins? The name is a corruption of the
>> word /Hashishim/ - "hashish takers." These Muslim
>> fanatics
>> were segregated in a walled garden prior to being sent
>> out
>> to kill, given hashish (concentrated resin from
>> marijuana),
>> access to tasty foods, wine and women, and told that this
>> would be their reward for dying in the service of their
>> faith (sound familiar, guys?).
>>
>
> <http://groups.google.com/group/news.admin.net-abuse.email/msg/8daa379ae87e88e9?&hl=en>
>
> Scroll down to:
>
> "Headline News *Ex-suicide bombers blast
> virgins-for-martyrs
> swindle*"
>
> Put down your coffee and get the cat off of you lap
> before reading
> past that. Not work safe if ROTFALYAO will get you in
> trouble.

And this

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38673?issue=4228&special=2001

is DEFINITELY not work-safe if either ROFALYFAO or political
satire will bring down the wrath of the server gods upon
you. (Some corporate firewalls may gag on the domain,
anyway).

I posted the text of the above-linked article here
/verbatim/ a few years ago, but agree with the current
convention of simply posting links to off-topic content.
Peewee (and everyone else under 18), please ask your Mom and
Dad to review this link before you go reading it.

pixelmeow

unread,
Oct 4, 2006, 6:06:42 PM10/4/06
to

<quote Robin Williams><* used by me>
I can see it now: Osama bin Laden goes up to the gates of Heaven where
George Washington comes out, says, "How dare you defile what I have
created," and starts whaling on his ***, then 70 other members of the
Continental Congress come out and start kicking the **** out of him.
Osama will say, "Hey, wait! Where are my virgins?" "71 *Virginians*,
you ***hole!"
</quote>

And yeah, I'm a Virginian. :-)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0330829/quotes

(not for kids!)
--
~teresa~
AFH Barwench

=^..^= "Through the walls! The heck with doors!" =^..^=
Volunteer Coordinator and Database Wrangler
The Heinlein Centennial, July 7 2007
http://www.HeinleinCentennial.com
http://www.forget-me-knotts.com
email my first name at pixelmeow dot com

Dr. Rufo

unread,
Oct 4, 2006, 7:41:11 PM10/4/06
to

pixelmeow wrote:
< snip >

Miss Pix,
The link you provided above was unnecessary, uncalled for and very
much appreciated.
Thank you.

Rufe

Tian

unread,
Oct 5, 2006, 12:25:46 AM10/5/06
to
pixelmeow wrote:

> <quote Robin Williams><* used by me>
> I can see it now: Osama bin Laden goes up to the gates of Heaven where
> George Washington comes out, says, "How dare you defile what I have
> created," and starts whaling on his ***, then 70 other members of the
> Continental Congress come out and start kicking the **** out of him.
> Osama will say, "Hey, wait! Where are my virgins?" "71 *Virginians*,
> you ***hole!"
> </quote>
>
> And yeah, I'm a Virginian. :-)
>
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0330829/quotes
>
> (not for kids!)

I remember when I was leasing an apartment in Orange County, the woman
asked me where I was coming from. I said "Virginia."

Suddenly this voice from above called out "Virginia, there really is
a Santa Clause!" Then there was a clomping on the stairs, and the
property manager came down. She was a middle aged woman with a nice
smile.

I think that was the only time I ever talked to her. The rest of the
time I was there I just slipped my rent check through the slot after
business hours. I was always gone during the days.

--
Tian
It's raining here right now. Usually the first rain is in December.

Vance P. Frickey

unread,
Feb 10, 2007, 3:37:17 PM2/10/07
to

It just occurred to me that drugging one's soldiers with
potent and addictive materials has historical precedent -
the Rajput soldiers of the Moghuls were provided opium to
eat and drink by their employers, a practice which continued
until well into the British Raj.

http://www.drugpolicy.org/docUploads/opium_india.pdf ,

and from http://opioids.com/timeline/index.html:
1620s -1670s
Rajput troops fighting for the Mughals introduce the habit
of taking opium to Assam. Opium is given daily to Rajput
soldiers. From 1637 onwards Opium becomes the main commodity
of British trade with China.

It's but a few short jumps of chemistry from opium to
morphine, to morphine's acetyl derivative heroin - "China
White" - and then an equally short jump of the imagination
from "China White" to "Tetracell White" in the ST:DS9
universe.

As I pointed out in an earlier post on this thread, there
seem to be other cultural borrowings from Indian and
Southwest Asian military history - the "jemadar" and the
aptly named "Ferengi" in the ST:DS9 and ST:NG universes.


--
Vance P. Frickey
remove "safety" from listed Email address to send mail

"War is what happens when language fails." - Margaret Atwood


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