Magical Life-Debts Still Owed
Chip Stobb
We all know that Peter Pettigrew (aka "Wormtail") owes a life debt to
Harry. This is a given.
But what about the life-debt owed by Severus Snape to James Potter,
and inherited by Harry upon his father's death? Was this ever really
and satisfactorily paid in full?
In Harry's first year, Snape DID mutter a counter-curse to counteract
Quirrel's attempt at jinxing Harry's broom. But as Quirrel's eye
contact was broken by Hermione's distraction (setting Snape's robes on
fire), Snape didn't actually save Harry's life.
Given - Dumbledore did say that Snape stepped in at the quidditch
match, and helped Harry so that he (Snape) could go back to hating
James' memory. But was this enough to satisfy the debt?
In PoA in the Shrieking Shack when Snape yells that Harry should thank
him (Snape) on bended knee for saving him from Sirius Black, Harry's
life was never in danger as Sirius was going for Wormtail all the time
- NOT Harry.
In HBP, Snape never really taught Occlumency to Harry, he (Snape) was
not aware that Harry was at the top of the tower when Dumbledore was
killed, and he was obeying Voldemort's express orders that Voldemort
alone would be the one to kill Harry. So in each of these instances
Snape did nothing to actively save Harry's life.
Based on this I believe that a valid argument can be made that Snape
still owes a magical life-debt to Harry, and that this will come into
play in Deathly Hallows. : P
- Chip
"Ignorance is bliss, and we're in Nirvana." - C. Stobb
Toon
>
>We all know that Peter Pettigrew (aka "Wormtail") owes a life debt to
>Harry. This is a given.
>
>But what about the life-debt owed by Severus Snape to James Potter,
>and inherited by Harry upon his father's death? Was this ever really
>and satisfactorily paid in full?
It's nontransferable, according to JK. Snape choose to honor it
through Harry.
>In HBP, Snape never really taught Occlumency to Harry, he (Snape) was
>not aware that Harry was at the top of the tower when Dumbledore was
>killed, and he was obeying Voldemort's express orders that Voldemort
>alone would be the one to kill Harry. So in each of these instances
>Snape did nothing to actively save Harry's life.
If he never really taught it, he should have known Harry was there.
mewthree
i can see that peter owes harry a life debt, but weather he has to
repay it or what the consequences are if he didn't. when we talk about
snapes life debt, i would question weather one really existed because it
was james' fault the snapes life was jeopardizes.
Sirius Kase
Good point, just because a debt exists doesn't mean it will be repaid,
but somehow, I think Peter will come through, otherwise, why was the
life debt business brought up?
Snape's debt, if it exists doesn't make much sense. Why would Snape
be indebted to a kid whose father he believes almost had him killed
then backed off at the last minute?
I'd hate to think that Dumbledore was just BSing instead of giving
Harry the real reason or possiblyl admitting that he didn't know
something. Or that Rowling included up something that probably
doesn't help the story.
Richard Eney
Chip Stobb <st...@usa.com> wrote:
>
>We all know that Peter Pettigrew (aka "Wormtail") owes a life debt to
>Harry. This is a given.
>
>But what about the life-debt owed by Severus Snape to James Potter,
>and inherited by Harry upon his father's death? Was this ever really
>and satisfactorily paid in full?
Not transferable, except in Snape's mind. So that's not a magical
life-debt, just an emotional one, and it may be a cover story by DD.
>In Harry's first year, Snape DID mutter a counter-curse to counteract
>Quirrel's attempt at jinxing Harry's broom. But as Quirrel's eye
>contact was broken by Hermione's distraction (setting Snape's robes
>on fire), Snape didn't actually save Harry's life.
He did make it possible for Harry to hld onto the broom long enough
for Hermione to accidentally save Harry's life by distracting Quirrell.
>Given - Dumbledore did say that Snape stepped in at the quidditch
>match, and helped Harry so that he (Snape) could go back to hating
>James' memory. But was this enough to satisfy the debt?
>
>In PoA in the Shrieking Shack when Snape yells that Harry should thank
>him (Snape) on bended knee for saving him from Sirius Black, Harry's
>life was never in danger as Sirius was going for Wormtail all the time
>- NOT Harry.
When everybody is unconscious after Harry saves them temporarily by
chasing away the Dementors, Snape wakes up and gets them all to the
castle before the Dementors can come back, and I am certain that the
Dementors _would_ have come back and soulsucked them all.
>In HBP, Snape never really taught Occlumency to Harry, he (Snape) was
>not aware that Harry was at the top of the tower when Dumbledore was
>killed,
Snape's talent is for Occlumency, though he can do Legilimency.
You seem to have to have eye contact for those too; V says he always
knows when he is being lied to, but he only knew Bryce was in the
hallway because Nagini told him.
>and he was obeying Voldemort's express orders that Voldemort
>alone would be the one to kill Harry. So in each of these
>instances Snape did nothing to actively save Harry's life.
Except stop the other DEs, who had forgotten V's orders.
>Based on this I believe that a valid argument can be made that Snape
>still owes a magical life-debt to Harry, and that this will come into
>play in Deathly Hallows. : P
I don't think Snape owes a magical life-debt, but he may feel that he
owes an emotional one.
=Tamar
Ron Hunter
For what it is worth, JKR agrees with you that Snape doesn't own Harry a
life-debt by virtue of not paying it for James. However, Pettigrew
does. What I don't understand is why she says Ginny doesn't owe him one
as he certainly placed his life on the line to defend her, and nearly
died doing it.
Toon
wrote:
No it wasn't. It was Sirius'. If it was James fault, Snape would owe
him nothing. He owes James because he knows James risked his own life
to save Snape's. An unforgivable offense. Who wants to be saved by
their archnemesis?
Toon
wrote:
>Not transferable, except in Snape's mind. So that's not a magical
>life-debt, just an emotional one, and it may be a cover story by DD.
But JK said the magical ones are nontransferable. And DD seems
convinced Peter must repay his back.
I think people are associating it with an Unbreakable Vow. You must
repay it back. I think you're compelled to, but if you can't, you
don't suffer for it.
Toon
wrote:
Maybe it's choices. Snape chose to go through the tunnel. Peter
chose to betray his friends. Ginny did not chose to be possessed by
Voldemort's Soul Bit. She did not chose to go into the COS.
And, James had no choice but to go after Snape to protect him, Siirus,
and Lupin. Harry had to protect Peter because he believed his dad
wouldn't want his two friends to kill the exfriend. Harry could have
gotten a real teacher to go after Ginny. He and Ron basically abduct
Lockheart tot he COS, when letting him flee and finding DD would have
made more sense.
Seems to be, if the person you save chose to endanger themselves, and
you had no other choice but to save them, you get a magical life debt.
Richard Eney
Toon <to...@toon.com> wrote:
>dic...@radix.net (Richard Eney) wrote:
>
>>Not transferable, except in Snape's mind. So that's not a magical
>>life-debt, just an emotional one, and it may be a cover story by DD.
>
>But JK said the magical ones are nontransferable.
Yes, they are not _really_ transferable. But Snape has an emotional
need to transfer it - so it is transferred only in Snape's mind, not
in reality. And that's assuming DD wasn't lying about it. I don't
subscribe to the DD-never-lies theory.
>And DD seems convinced Peter must repay his back.
>
>I think people are associating it with an Unbreakable Vow. You
>must repay it back. I think you're compelled to, but if you can't,
>you don't suffer for it.
I wonder about that. Does the "magical bond" allow you to pull
extra magical power from the person who owes you? That could be
useful in a magical battle.
=Tamar
Ron Hunter
As I understand it, it need by paid only if the one owed asks. Surely
Harry would never ask Ginny to pay back a life debt owed him, but he
might ask Pettigrew.
gjw
wrote:
>For what it is worth, JKR agrees with you that Snape doesn't own Harry a
>life-debt by virtue of not paying it for James. However, Pettigrew
>does. What I don't understand is why she says Ginny doesn't owe him one
>as he certainly placed his life on the line to defend her, and nearly
>died doing it.
There is only one known "magical debt" in the entire Potterverse, and
that is Wormtail's. There have been countless characters whose lives
have been saved (Dumbledore saved Harry, Ron saved Hermione, Harry
saved Ginny, etc), with no mention of any magical obligation
resulting. Obviously, Rowling wants to have Wormtail magically
compelled to help Harry in the last book, so she invented the whole
"magical debt" business just for him. There has been no mention of it
for any other characters. Snape owes a debt, but not a magical one -
it's just a matter of pride and stubborness on his part (he'll be
damned to owe his enemy anything...), which is why he "transferred" it
to Harry. He just wants to get even with James so (as Dumbledore put
it) he can go on hating him in peace...
drusilla
He insists James actually was part of the joke, something apparently
Dumbledore did not know. Perhaps Snape does believe that, yet, he knows
that cold feet or not, he saved him, hence, he saved Harry in PSSS. For
him, they must be even.
Toon
wrote:
>Yes, they are not _really_ transferable. But Snape has an emotional
>need to transfer it - so it is transferred only in Snape's mind, not
>in reality. And that's assuming DD wasn't lying about it. I don't
>subscribe to the DD-never-lies theory.
This just shows Snape's true inner goodness. He has a moral compass,
and it tells him to repay the debt. Once again, choices dominates the
story.
Toon
>There have been countless characters whose lives
>have been saved (Dumbledore saved Harry, Ron saved Hermione, Harry
>saved Ginny, etc), with no mention of any magical obligation
>resulting.
Then they did not create a magical life debt. There's obviously an
extra piece James and Harry achieved. Just like Lily did something
extra that inadvertently saved Harry, despite the fact countless
people could perform a similar sacrifice. You don't just refuse to
move out of the way, and you don't just save a life. Somehting else
we're missing is involved.
Toon
<gammanormids*erasethis*@gmail.com> wrote:
>He insists James actually was part of the joke, something apparently
>Dumbledore did not know. Perhaps Snape does believe that, yet, he knows
>that cold feet or not, he saved him, hence, he saved Harry in PSSS. For
>him, they must be even.
Thta's juts his way of dueling with the incident. if he truly
believed James was responsible, he'd have no need to repay him. You
got me into third mess, I owe you nothing for getting me out. It's
already balanced when you saved me.
But if James wasn't responsible, Snape has to repay him, and he can't
stand that, so he invents some baloney to ease his mind. But deep
down inside, he knows he owes James a life debt.
Richard Eney
Ron Hunter <rphu...@charter.net> wrote:
Good idea. Then combine that with the fact that Harry has been trained
most of his life not to ask for help, and either the debt becomes almost
insignificant, or at some point Harry will have to ask Wormtail for help
and specify that it is for the magical debt repayment.
=Tamar
gjw
>On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 00:34:51 GMT, gjw <g...@example.net> wrote:
>
>>There have been countless characters whose lives
>>have been saved (Dumbledore saved Harry, Ron saved Hermione, Harry
>>saved Ginny, etc), with no mention of any magical obligation
>>resulting.
>
>Then they did not create a magical life debt.
And neither did Snape & James. There is simply no evidence at all to
suggest that Snape's debt to James is anything more than a matter of
personal pride, hatred and stubbornness on Snape's part. Dumbledore
explains about the Snape incident to Harry, with no mention of magic.
And he later (talking about Wormtail) explains about magical debts,
with no mention of Snape. Dumbledore makes it clear why Snape is
determined to get even with James: he hates him so much, that even
after James' death, Snape still can't bear the thought of owing his
worst enemy anything. Here is the exact text:
""Funny, the way people's minds work, isn't it? Professor Snape
couldn't bear being in your father's debt... I do believe he worked so
hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and
your father even. Then he could go back to hating your father's memory
in peace...."