Harry and Occlumency
honeysuc...@bellsouth.net
stands to reason that harry would have some ability with Occlumency.
The reason DD didn't teach him this was due to Harry's dreams and DD
did not want to push Harry due to LV emence hate for him and in ootp
DD is proved correct in this when Harry takes the portkey to head
quarters he wants to bite DD. I think if someone else had taught Harry
he would have done well. Maybe in this book Lupin will try to help
Harry out with this weakness. It can not be benifical for LV or Snape
to be in Harry's Head they could see the spell he is going to cast
before he does it, know where he's going and what he's trying to find
ect. Remember DD doen't want anyone to know what they have been up to
except Ron and Hermione, so that Harry can get all the Horcruxes and
destroy them before he faces LV. If they the DE figure out what he's
up to then LV has time to move them to a safer location and Harry will
not stand a chance then. So I believe someone is going to have to work
with Harry on this and maybe even Hermione and Ron so they don't give
away the information they have learned about the Horcruxes and their
locations. I believe they will return to Hogwarts and search the
library and the Room of Requirements to see if anyone else may have
used it as a hiding place for one of the Horcruxes. I know that DD
could since magical spells and such so it would come to reason that
the only place LV could have hid a Horcruxes is inside the room of
requirements.
Matt Clara
news:1179315699.0...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> If Harry got some of LV powers the night he tried to kill him then it
> stands to reason that harry would have some ability with Occlumency.
Why? There's zero evidence for that. You're just making stuff up, you are.
honeysuc...@bellsouth.net
> <honeysuckler3...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
If you have read the books then you know I am not making anything up.
In one of the books DD mentioned the their was a room in the castle he
only saw one time He needed to use the bathroom and a room appeared
full of chamber pots. I don't think DD knew about the room of
requirements. It is very possible since they searched the castle threw
and threw and never found the Chamber of secrets.
drusilla
Mmm... perhaps Harry has the ability and potential but he doesn't know
how to work it nor is able to. You need to control your emotions to
master Occlumency, and that's something Harry is unable to do.
mueckelein
The room of requirements and the chamber of secrets are two totally
different rooms. The room of requirements is on the seventh floor and
only appears there if you have a certain requirement ( therefore the
name!). DD needed to have a toilet and passing the place in seventh
floor the room appeared, this time full of chamber pots. It changes
due to the different needs of it´s user.
The chamber of secrets though is deep beneath the castle, the entrance
hidden under the sink of the old girls bathroom ond only to be opened
by someone speaking Parsel. The room itsself remains the same with a
gigantic statue of Salazar Slytherin and the basilisk. Slytherin
himself built this room, but who made the room of requirements is
unknown.
Matt Clara
news:1179335756.6...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On May 16, 11:48 am, "Matt Clara" <hey.woo...@buzz.off> wrote:
>> <honeysuckler3...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1179315699.0...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > If Harry got some of LV powers the night he tried to kill him then it
>> > stands to reason that harry would have some ability with Occlumency.
>>
>> Why? There's zero evidence for that. You're just making stuff up, you
>> are.
>>
>
> In one of the books DD mentioned the their was a room in the castle he
> only saw one time He needed to use the bathroom and a room appeared
> full of chamber pots. I don't think DD knew about the room of
> requirements. It is very possible since they searched the castle threw
> and threw and never found the Chamber of secrets.
>
What in the world does that have to do with "harry would have some ability
with Occlumency" due to his interaction with LV? Let me try to be clear:
you state there's reason to believe the above is true, but there is no
reason, none given in the books, to believe Harry has gained occlumency
abilities from LV. This doesn't rule it out, but there is no such reason.
Thus you're just making stuff up.
Paracelsus
I don't think Harry will master Occlumency, nor does he need to. Snape
teaching Harry was a lost cause but I doubt that even Dumbledore could
have taught a confused and angry 15 year old to clear his mind of
emotions. Snape saw Harry's inability to learn Occlumency as a sign of
weakness and he was partially right. On the other hand, Snape is a badly
damaged person and it may be that some of this damage was done by
constantly shutting down his own emotions.
In the battle at the end of OOtP, Harry was able to drive Voldemort from
his mind by the strength of the love he felt for Sirius. Voldemort has
not tried to enter his mind since that incident. That may be Harry's
special power, the ability to project positive emotions so intensely
that evil-doers are driven out of his mind.
Sirius Kase
> On 16 Mai, 19:15, honeysuckler3...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 16, 11:48 am, "Matt Clara" <hey.woo...@buzz.off> wrote:
>
> > > <honeysuckler3...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1179315699.0...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > If Harry got some of LV powers the night he tried to kill him then it
> > > > stands to reason that harry would have some ability with Occlumency.
>
> > > Why? There's zero evidence for that. You're just making stuff up, you are.
>
> > > --www.mattclara.com
>
> > If you have read the books then you know I am not making anything up.
> > In one of the books DD mentioned the their was a room in the castle he
> > only saw one time He needed to use the bathroom and a room appeared
> > full of chamber pots. I don't think DD knew about the room of
> > requirements. It is very possible since they searched the castle threw
> > and threw and never found the Chamber of secrets.
>
> The room of requirements and the chamber of secrets are two totally
> different rooms.
Honey didn't say they were. When DD mentioned the RoR in book 4, he
seemed to have been unaware of it before the Chamber Pot incident. In
CoS, it was stated that DD had searched the entire castle and never
fournd the Chamber of Secrets. Honey restated both of those facts in
separate sentences. Your head connected them somehow.
Toon
But he automatically Legils V in his dreams. He can't Occul, but he
got instant Legiling capabilities. Nobody ever taught him. Seems
when his scar starts up, his subconscious logs on to V. Harry needs
to learn to do this consciously, and not use his emotion detecting
scar.
Lyle Francis Delp
If LV transferred his ability with Parseltongue to Harry, why
not Occlumency and Legilimency? DD told Harry that LV
transferred some of his powers to Harry the night he tried
to kill him as a baby. Perhaps he did and they just haven't
manifested themselves yet.
--
Yeah! Lyle Francis Delp
Ya wanna make somethin' outtavit?
Matt Clara
news:2007051711190875249-theelevator@manhattancom...
> On 2007-05-16 18:27:25 -0400, "Matt Clara" <hey.w...@buzz.off> said:
>
>> <honeysuc...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> news:1179335756.6...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>> On May 16, 11:48 am, "Matt Clara" <hey.woo...@buzz.off> wrote:
>>>> <honeysuckler3...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:1179315699.0...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>>> If Harry got some of LV powers the night he tried to kill him then it
>>>>> stands to reason that harry would have some ability with Occlumency.
>>>>
>>>> Why? There's zero evidence for that. You're just making stuff up, you
>>>> are.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you have read the books then you know I am not making anything up.
>>> In one of the books DD mentioned the their was a room in the castle he
>>> only saw one time He needed to use the bathroom and a room appeared
>>> full of chamber pots. I don't think DD knew about the room of
>>> requirements. It is very possible since they searched the castle threw
>>> and threw and never found the Chamber of secrets.
>>>
>>
>> What in the world does that have to do with "harry would have some
>> ability with Occlumency" due to his interaction with LV? Let me try to
>> be clear: you state there's reason to believe the above is true, but
>> there is no reason, none given in the books, to believe Harry has gained
>> occlumency abilities from LV. This doesn't rule it out, but there is no
>> such reason. Thus you're just making stuff up.
>
> If LV transferred his ability with Parseltongue to Harry, why
> not Occlumency and Legilimency?
Sure, why not? But then again, why? Unlike parseltongue, there's no reason
given in the books to believe he's gained occulemency skills. Therefore
there's no reason given. Do you get that, can you understand it? No reason
given in the books equals no reason. See?
>DD told Harry that LV
> transferred some of his powers to Harry the night he tried
> to kill him as a baby. Perhaps he did and they just haven't
> manifested themselves yet.
So what, you could extrapolate anything from that--what fact from the book
even says LV is great at occlumency? None.
Would all you "speculitists" get a fucking clue? If it ain't in the books,
it's just fucking guess work.
CH
"Toon" <to...@toon.com> wrote in message
news:10lo431emmobu29ad...@4ax.com...
You can also add in the fact that even with Snape's poor teaching Harry DID
invade Snape's mind, something it seems that no one else has been able to
do. Not Dd or Tommy, that we know of anyway. Just like he got some answers
for some of the OWL's from someone's mind or so it seems, whether it was
from Parvati, at whom he was staring at (well the way the light looked thru
her hair anyway) or from Hermione who was just ahead and to the side of
Parv, which Harry made mention of.
So IF we get the info in the 7th book that Harry gained those abilities as
well as Parsel and whatever else he may have gotten then we have a
precedence to look back on and go 'Ahh ok'. Like we had the set up for Harry
being able to see in Tommy's mind thru his dreams and 'feel' his emotions
based on his scar hurting since the very first book.
Stuff is there if it's needed to go back and re-look at.
Just sayin is all.
Drusilla
I don't know if that applies as Legimency. Ok, sure there is a
connection between them but I suppose that only places Harry as an
antenna or receptor, something no one else is able to be. Just because
someone puts memories in your mind, doesn't mean you can read them.
Toon
wrote:
>Honey didn't say they were. When DD mentioned the RoR in book 4, he
>seemed to have been unaware of it before the Chamber Pot incident. In
>CoS, it was stated that DD had searched the entire castle and never
>fournd the Chamber of Secrets. Honey restated both of those facts in
>separate sentences. Your head connected them somehow.
Further, he always knew the COS existed (well, since 50 years ago).
Even after he stumbled upon the ROR, he still didn't know what it was,
having gone looking for it again and never finding it. Nor another
room in it's place. Dobby, OTOH, seemed well aquatinted with it. So,
the Elves are keeping secrets, even from DD.
Lyle Francis Delp
Your assholeness is showing again.
Perhaps the reason hasn't been made clear...yet. See? Can you understand it?
[sheesh!!]
>
>> DD told Harry that LV
>> transferred some of his powers to Harry the night he tried
>> to kill him as a baby. Perhaps he did and they just haven't
>> manifested themselves yet.
>
> So what, you could extrapolate anything from that--what fact from the
> book even says LV is great at occlumency? None.
> Would all you "speculitists" get a fucking clue? If it ain't in the
> books, it's just fucking guess work.
I'm nothing of the sort. This entire NG is based on the speculations of
the contributors. Do you get it? Can you understand it?
I guess not.
Just go read the books.
Toon
Some, not all. PT and Legils, yes, Occuls no. We've seen he can't do
it.
Toon
>You can also add in the fact that even with Snape's poor teaching Harry DID
>invade Snape's mind, something it seems that no one else has been able to
>do. Not Dd or Tommy, that we know of anyway.
And Snape expected it, because he removed certain memories he didn't
want to be seen.
Toon
But Harry was riding shotgun with V as Nagini. I think that was full
legils. He subconsciously connected and legilsed him, and saw what he
saw.
honeysuc...@bellsouth.net
wrote:
> On 2007-05-17 18:39:34 -0400, "Matt Clara" <hey.woo...@buzz.off> said:
>
>
>
> > "Lyle Francis Delp" <theeleva...@manhattan.com> wrote in message
> >news:2007051711190875249-theelevator@manhattancom...
It does say that LV is very skilled in occlumency snape says it to
Harry in the OotP go read it if you don't believe me.
Lyle Francis Delp
Um...yes...I know that. That's why I suggest that LV
may have transferred some of the ability to Harry at
the same time he transferred Parseltongue. Why would
this be so difficult for Matt Clara to understand? That
is hasn't manifested itself yet is surely due to Harry's
general emotional state (unable to control his emotions) and
Snape's sabotage of the lessons.
I think Harry will be able to learn it if he is taught properly.
Lyle Francis Delp
Yet.
Just because Occlumency hasn't manifested itself yet,
doesn't mean that it never will.
I think Snape sabotaged the lessons...or at least he couldn't
put his hatred of James/Harry aside long enough to teach
Harry properly. One or the other.
CH
Don't know if we should look at that as Snape expecting it or just being
overly cautious and doing it just in case. Altho that is something to think
about. Him expecting Harry to be that powerful at it.
Atroki
>I think Harry will be able to learn it if he is taught properly.
I think that's the key, Occlumency seems to be more of a learned
talent where parsletongue appears to be a natural abilty.
Toon
<theel...@manhattan.com> wrote:
>Yet.
>
>Just because Occlumency hasn't manifested itself yet,
>doesn't mean that it never will.
Well, he gained Parseltongue, and automatically does it. He seems to
have gained Legils, and automatically does it when asleep. Why would
he gain Occuls, and not only never automatically do it, but when he
practices it, he can't do it? Doesn't fit the pattern. All of V's
powers that were transferred have been automatically activated (at
least subconsciously, ala Harry's pre training magic as a kid). To
suddenly have one not be automatic and not work when taught (however
poorly) doesn't fit, nor does it make any sense.
~consul
> Even after he stumbled upon the ROR, he still didn't know what it was,
> having gone looking for it again and never finding it. Nor another
> room in it's place. Dobby, OTOH, seemed well aquatinted with it. So,
> the Elves are keeping secrets, even from DD.
I'm surprised that Dd never "required" the Chamber, or a map to it.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For here, at the end of all things, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
Lyle Francis Delp
> On Fri, 18 May 2007 14:04:02 -0400, Lyle Francis Delp
> <theel...@manhattan.com> wrote:
>
>> Yet.
>>
>> Just because Occlumency hasn't manifested itself yet,
>> doesn't mean that it never will.
>
> Well, he gained Parseltongue, and automatically does it. He seems to
> have gained Legils, and automatically does it when asleep.
Here's the problem. It's never been stated that Harry's
scar connection with LV is actually Legilimency, has it?
Therefore, it can't be categorically stated that he
automatically does it when asleep.
> Why would
> he gain Occuls, and not only never automatically do it, but when he
> practices it, he can't do it? Doesn't fit the pattern.
Because, as an angry teenager, and being taunted and
bullied by Snape, he can't clear his mind. That's the first
step. If Harry can't do that, Occlumency can't occur.
Ironically, the killing of DD may have been just the thing
that will clear Harry's mind and set him on his quest.
Sometimes it takes such a shock to do this.
> All of V's
> powers that were transferred have been automatically activated (at
> least subconsciously, ala Harry's pre training magic as a kid). To
> suddenly have one not be automatic and not work when taught (however
> poorly) doesn't fit, nor does it make any sense.
Except that Harry's mind must be cleared for it to work.
I'm not stating categorically the Occlumency was included in
LV's "magical care pakage". Just a thought. But, I'm also not
quite sure that Legilimency was either. Although it has been
stated that the scar is the connection, it's never stated that
connection is Legilimency.
Joe Bednorz
<2007051905443716807-theelevator@manhattancom>:
>
>I'm not stating categorically the Occlumency was included in
>LV's "magical care pakage". Just a thought. But, I'm also not
>quite sure that Legilimency was either. Although it has been
>stated that the scar is the connection, it's never stated that
>connection is Legilimency.
Not to mention that even Harry isn't sure that he want to succeed with
Occlumency. Harry wants to know what's at the end of the corridor in
his dreams in OotP. Just as Harry is conflicted when practicing the
Patronus in PoA, since it would prevent him from hearing his parents'
voices.
In reality, of course, JKR just throws in magic in fits and starts to
keep the pot boiling. Remember Time Turners? Too dangerous to use to
stop the horrible murders performed by Voldemort and the DE, even by
specially trained wizards. But to save Sirius and Buckbeak, or even to
just let a schoolgirl take extra classes, no problem!
--
Links to Gigabytes of free books on line, emphasis on SF:
<http://www.mindspring.com/~jbednorz/Free/>
All the Best,
Joe Bednorz
Drusilla
> On Fri, 18 May 2007 14:04:02 -0400, Lyle Francis Delp
> <theel...@manhattan.com> wrote:
>
>> Yet.
>>
>> Just because Occlumency hasn't manifested itself yet,
>> doesn't mean that it never will.
>
> Well, he gained Parseltongue, and automatically does it. He seems to
> have gained Legils, and automatically does it when asleep.
Harry can speak with snakes even before he knew he had the skill, and he
understand them every time. If he were a real Legils, he would be
reading others's mind since much time before.
Why would
> he gain Occuls, and not only never automatically do it, but when he
> practices it, he can't do it? Doesn't fit the pattern. All of V's
> powers that were transferred have been automatically activated (at
> least subconsciously, ala Harry's pre training magic as a kid).
Just Parseltongue. The 'Legimency' is the connection that was activated
when LV regained his body.
Drusilla
>> I think Harry will be able to learn it if he is taught properly.
>
> I think that's the key, Occlumency seems to be more of a learned
> talent where parsletongue appears to be a natural abilty.
It needs practice and dedication. Harry needs to learn how to close his
mind and empty it from emotions. He can't do it yet. He *might* have get
the ability from a superb occlumens as LV and he can't.
Drusilla
Or, perhaps he feared like DD that Voldemort could see something through
Harry. Or that Harry got the skill from LV and is a potential Legimens.
Drusilla
I think it's something different. Like they share one mind at the same
time. We know Legilimency can see thoughts and memories, but we don't
know for sure if it shows what the person being read is seeing and
thinking at the same moment, like a movie.
ALthough we know that Harry and Voldemort is an exception to almost any
rule.
Toon
<theel...@manhattan.com> wrote:
>Here's the problem. It's never been stated that Harry's
>scar connection with LV is actually Legilimency, has it?
It's more than just that. It detects emotions, usually hatred. It
let him receive images in a dream. And let him be in Voldemort's
head.
>Therefore, it can't be categorically stated that he
>automatically does it when asleep.
But every time he was in V's head, he was asleep at the time. Now, he
might be able to learn to do it awake. There's nothing indicating
that sleep is a requirement. But so far, he automatically does it
when asleep.
Toon
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Too dangerous to use to
>stop the horrible murders performed by Voldemort and the DE, even by
>specially trained wizards.
That would alter history, which could result in a far worse world.
There was this great short story about a guy now living in Germany (in
the 30/40's), who hated how the South was treated after the Civil War
(keep in mind, this is not our universe). So, he decided to build a
time machine, and convince General Lee not to fight for the Union,
which he blames for the South's mistreatment (keep in mind, in
reality, Lincoln asked him before Grant.) Well, after fricking up
things over and over again, and gaining a god complex because he's
been creating alternate worlds again and again vs the one god made, he
wind sup with a satisfactory South. So, he decides to go check out
Germany (there's some stupid thing that he can travel to any day in
the alternate past, but if he returns to the day he left, the's in his
own world.) the day before he left. As he's exploring, he's quickly
arrested by the Naziscum, who don't appreciate him being a Jewish
scientist. And so, he ended up creating NaziGermany, and has deluded
himself into thinking some alternate version of himself will arrive,
learn of his capture, and then free him.
And all because he wanted to help the South out. Instead, he made
things far worse for the entire world, and doomed himself.
> But to save Sirius and Buckbeak, or even to
>just let a schoolgirl take extra classes, no problem!
Letting a kid take extra classes with such a dangerous thing is
ridiculous. But saving Siirus and Buckbeak was predestined. They
didn't seek to change history.
Toon
<gammanormids*erasethis*@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> But Harry was riding shotgun with V as Nagini. I think that was full
>> legils. He subconsciously connected and legilsed him, and saw what he
>> saw.
>
>I think it's something different. Like they share one mind at the same
>time. We know Legilimency can see thoughts and memories, but we don't
>know for sure if it shows what the person being read is seeing and
>thinking at the same moment, like a movie.
>
>ALthough we know that Harry and Voldemort is an exception to almost any
>rule.
They could have created an advanced form of it. Like, DD thinks V's
control of Nagini is form having his soul in her. I say, he developed
an advanced form of Parseltongue.
Perhaps this is the side effect of having part of another's soul
inside you. You mind meld with ease.
Drusilla
Maybe. This power activated when LV regained his body though. Before
that, he just felt him when he was around, but nothing of sharing
thoughts. I suppose this might be a clue but I can't figure out why.
Toon
Double link. V's soul bit in Harry, Harry's blood in V. Burts the
door to each other wide open. previously, they needed to be in close
proximity, and then only extreme emotional thoughts were detected, and
just their emotions, like an EMpath or such.
acd
> Mmm... perhaps Harry has the ability and potential but he doesn't know
> how to work it nor is able to. You need to control your emotions to
> master Occlumency, and that's something Harry is unable to do.
This is of course a part of maturity. A child is not able at all
to suppress the expression of their emotions, later they still have
the
emotions, but will not always show it.
Controlling the emotions is the next step.
Furthermore, I think unconsciously Harry did not want to succeed in
the lessons,
because hw did not like having extra hours with snape and was angry
on DD for assiging it.
He would have well accepted extra lessons with, say McGonnagal.
If you are forced to learn something which you dislike or you dislike
the teacher,
then success will not be great.
Thomas Gagne
I've heard it postulated that it may have come from Riddle but these
theories don't preclude Harry's having it naturally. Where else has it
been said the AK curse lends to its victim, just before their immediate
and certain death, the powers of the caster?
And so it goes with Occlumancy. Harry's ability to master this skill
(if he does) may be more a gift of the "natural talent" kind and not the
"it came with the scar" kind.
--
Visit <http://blogs.instreamfinancial.com/anything.php>
to read my rants on technology and the finance industry.
jesshc
This reminds me of something I don't recall seeing discussed here
before, though I may have just missed it: in recently rereading of the
series in preparation for the release of the last book, I noticed that
in OotF (maybe it was HBP) Dobby briefly mentioned something along the
lines of being a Hogwarts house elf keeping Dumbledore's secrets. It
made me wonder if Dobby is going to reveal one of DD's secrets, maybe
the secret of why DD trusted Snape, e.g. I don't recall the chapter,
or even the context, at the moment.
Green-Eyed Chris
<jes...@phantomemail.com> wrote:
At the moment, this reminds _me_ of the time Moose Malloy told me to find
his Velma... only _he_ provided a down payment for the job.
--
Chris
Ceil
> I'm unconvinced Harry's parselmouth was an unintended gift of Riddle's.
> I've heard it postulated that it may have come from Riddle but these
> theories don't preclude Harry's having it naturally. Where else has it
> been said the AK curse lends to its victim, just before their immediate
> and certain death, the powers of the caster?
>
> And so it goes with Occlumancy. Harry's ability to master this skill
> (if he does) may be more a gift of the "natural talent" kind and not the
> "it came with the scar" kind.
>
been fully explained (to my knowledge). Perhaps it works similarly to
the Patronus charm, only it's powered by hate and malice; in which case,
you're sending a piece of your self out to attack someone. If that were
the case, it'd be quite possible to transfer some of your power(s) to
the victim; if they happen to survive. Remember, this is the first time
anyone's survived AK. Perhaps if it happened again, you would see the
same result.
Thomas Gagne
> <snip>
>>
>>
> Well keep in mind that the mechanics of "The Killing Curse" have never
> been fully explained (to my knowledge). Perhaps it works similarly to
> the Patronus charm, only it's powered by hate and malice; in which
> case, you're sending a piece of your self out to attack someone. If
> that were the case, it'd be quite possible to transfer some of your
> power(s) to the victim; if they happen to survive. Remember, this is
> the first time anyone's survived AK. Perhaps if it happened again, you
> would see the same result.
was crusius? I remember a death-eater laughing at him after it failed
and telling him he had to really want to kill someone (or hurt them) for
the curse to work.
Drusilla
But then does LV feels what Harry feels? LV's is a big occlumens, so, we
might assume that he controls his feelings better, unlike Harry, who is
completely the opposite. Then, it's Harry who feels them, while LV
didn't knew until the end that they had the connection. LV should have
felt Harry's strongest emotions: the kiss, the rage against Umbridge, etc.
Drusilla
> On 16 Mai, 21:55, drusilla <gammanormids*eraseth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Mmm... perhaps Harry has the ability and potential but he doesn't know
>> how to work it nor is able to. You need to control your emotions to
>> master Occlumency, and that's something Harry is unable to do.
>
> This is of course a part of maturity. A child is not able at all
> to suppress the expression of their emotions, later they still have
> the
> emotions, but will not always show it.
> Controlling the emotions is the next step.
Draco can. And I think Draco is more skilled at controlling emotions due
to the environment where he lives. It's more like the personality. I
have a friend who has always being a little bit stoical, since we were
in high school. I think he had been a superb occlumens.
> Furthermore, I think unconsciously Harry did not want to succeed in
> the lessons,
> because hw did not like having extra hours with snape and was angry
> on DD for assiging it.
> He would have well accepted extra lessons with, say McGonnagal.
> If you are forced to learn something which you dislike or you dislike
> the teacher,
> then success will not be great.
That, and that he didn't know why he was supposed to learn.
Ceil
> Ceil wrote:
>> <snip>
> Didn't Harry try it at the end of OOtP, but it didn't work? Maybe it
> was crusius? I remember a death-eater laughing at him after it failed
> and telling him he had to really want to kill someone (or hurt them) for
> the curse to work.
>
a Crucio. So yeah, there's evidence that the emotion/desire to hurt must
at least be present in the caster, if not actually sent out as a spell.
Ceil
> On 16 Mai, 21:55, drusilla <gammanormids*eraseth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Mmm... perhaps Harry has the ability and potential but he doesn't know
>> how to work it nor is able to. You need to control your emotions to
>> master Occlumency, and that's something Harry is unable to do.
>
> This is of course a part of maturity. A child is not able at all
> to suppress the expression of their emotions, later they still have
> the
> emotions, but will not always show it.
> Controlling the emotions is the next step.
>
>
I disagree. Everybody (and mind) is different. I was able to suppress
emotions even in pre-pubescence (I personally blame the Ritalin, but
anyway). I spent a great part of my "growing up" (age 10-17) studying
the people around me, something I couldn't do objectively if emotions
got in the way. I knew other kids the same way. And Harry at this time
is what, 16? Hardly a "child" by my definition (pre-pubescent).
There are kids (anyone under 18 by my definition) that can suppress
their emotions, and adults that can't. Age isn't everything, even though
it is _a_ factor.
Toon
>If you are forced to learn something which you dislike or you dislike
>the teacher,
>then success will not be great.
But at least there's success.
Toon
<tga...@wide-open-west.com> wrote:
>Where else has it
>been said the AK curse lends to its victim, just before their immediate
>and certain death, the powers of the caster?
From fans.
Toon
Only if strong enough. Voldemort was really furious, really happy (he
found a great victory). Was Harry extra emotional, or typical teenage
emotional? And what if when he was Raging Against Umbridge, V also
was enraged, and never noticed?
Green-Eyed Chris
<gammanormids*erasethis*@gmail.com> wrote:
To tell the truth, I donąt know why either. Furthermore, I do not
understand the people here who claim that Harry still needs to learn
Occlumency when JKR herself says
<http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/aa-jointerview2.html>:
łHarryąs problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the
surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in
touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed,
he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he
couldn't suppress these memories.˛
In OotP, Ch. 37. Dumbledore says that initially he was afraid Voldemort
might try and possess Harry as a means to spy on him. Then he realized
łVoldemortąs aim in possessing you, as he demonstrated tonight, would not
have been my destruction. It would have been yours.˛ When Voldemort tried
to use Harry to retrieve the Prophecy, Dumbledore says: łIt became a
matter of even greater urgency that you should master Occlumency.˛
However, when Voldemort actually did try to possess Harry in the MoM, it
turned out that łhe could not bear to reside in a body so full of the
force he detests˛. Dumbledore concedes that: łIn the end, it mattered not
that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you.˛
Indeed, in HBP, Ch. 4, we read:
»Lord Voldemort has finally realised the dangerous access to his
thoughts and feelings you have been enjoying. It appears that
he is now employing Occlumency against you.«
and
»If Iąm having lessons with you, I wonąt have to do Occlumency
lessons with Snape, will I?«
»~Professor~ Snape, Harry and no, you will not.«
In HBP, Ch. 25, Dumbledore echoes JKR when he says »Harry, you were never
a good OcclumensŠ«
The only one who still seems to believe that Occlumency will be important
for Harry is our beloved and ever protective Potions Master (HBP, Ch. 28):
»Blocked again, and again, and again until you learn to keep
your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!« sneered Snape,
deflecting the curse once more.
This is due to the fact that Snape was not present at the battle in the
MoM and also does not know the second part of the Prophecy... łbut he will
have power the Dark Lord knows not˛.
With the exception of three short memory snips Harry got from Snape, it
has only been established that Occlumency and Legilimency exists in Books
5 + 6. Both will not really come into play until a certain łhighly
accomplished Occlumens˛ stands in front of łthe most accomplished
Legilimens the world has ever seen˛ in Book 7.
--
Chris
Frodo Baggins
On May 18, 3:56 pm, Lyle Francis Delp <theeleva...@manhattan.com>
wrote:
>
> > Sure, why not? But then again, why? Unlike parseltongue, there's no
> > reason given in the books to believe he's gained occulemency skills.
> > Therefore there's no reason given. Do you get that, can you understand
> > it? No reason given in the books equals no reason. See?
>
> Your assholeness is showing again.
>
> Perhaps the reason hasn't been made clear...yet. See? Can you understand it?
>
> [sheesh!!]
>
In my opinion, the books seem to indicate that parseltoungue was
perhaps a more genetic trait rather than a trained one. Occlumency,
Legilimency etc seem to be aquired or learnt skills. The power
transfer from LV would have been the former since Harry did not come
to Hogwarts as a Wizard whizkid.
Certainly this place has people spouting theories without too much
thought, I just cant understand why people respond and then get
agitated when they can best ignore it or use the same bandwidth to
explain.
> > So what, you could extrapolate anything from that--what fact from the
> > book even says LV is great at occlumency? None.
> > Would all you "speculitists" get a fucking clue? If it ain't in the
> > books, it's just fucking guess work.
>
> I'm nothing of the sort. This entire NG is based on the speculations of
> the contributors. Do you get it? Can you understand it?
>
> I guess not.
>
> Just go read the books.
>
> --
> Yeah! Lyle Francis Delp
> Ya wanna make somethin' outtavit?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
jesshc
Are you upset I don't have my copies of OotP and HPB at work with me
to refer to? Golly, I'll be sure to carry them with me where ever I
go from now on. I apologize for thinking Dobby's mentioning he keeps
Dumbledore's secrets could be significant.
DaveD
"Ceil" <cei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f2svlm$8bn$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
Or it could be related to Harry being a living (if accidental) horcrux - if
he is one, of course :)
DaveD
Green-Eyed Chris
<jes...@phantomemail.com> wrote:
Can¹t you take a little sarcastic rib? You certainly set yourself up
perfectly for it. You couldn¹t remember the quote, the book, the chapter
or the context. You were totally obliviated!!!
Just to show that I still have some academic spirit left, here¹s your
ickle quote from GoF <ahem>, Ch. 21:
»Can¹t house-elves speak their minds about their masters,
then?« Harry asked.
»Oh no, sir, no«, said Dobby, looking suddenly serious. »¹Tis
part of the house-elf¹s enslavement, sir. We keeps their secrets
and our silence, sir. We upholds the family¹s honor, and we
never speaks ill of them though Professor Dumbledore told
Dobby he does not insist upon this. Professor Dumbledore said
we is free to toŠ«
Dobby looked suddenly nervous and beckoned Harry closer.
Harry bent forward. Dobby whispered, »He said we is free to call
him a a barmy old codger if we likes, sir!«
Dobby gave a frightened sort of giggle.
»But Dobby is not wanting to, Harry Potter«, he said, talking
normally again, and shaking his head so that his ears flapped.
»Dobby likes Professor Dumbledore very much, sir, and is proud
to keep his secrets and our silence for him.«
Now do your own homework.
--
Chris
Toon
Chris) wrote:
>The only one who still seems to believe that Occlumency will be important
>for Harry is our beloved and ever protective Potions Master (HBP, Ch. 28):
>
>»Blocked again, and again, and again until you learn to keep
>your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!« sneered Snape,
>deflecting the curse once more.
>
>This is due to the fact that Snape was not present at the battle in the
>MoM and also does not know the second part of the Prophecy... łbut he will
>have power the Dark Lord knows not˛.
Yes, but Snape knows Voldemort better than anyone else. He's lived
with him (assuming a communal base at times), served under him, been
his most trusted DE. Id Snape thinks Harry needs this, he might.
But it is possible Voldemort will so fear reading Harry's mind and
picking up on his various love thoughts, he simply won't do it.
Toon
wrote:
>Certainly this place has people spouting theories without too much
>thought, I just cant understand why people respond and then get
>agitated when they can best ignore it or use the same bandwidth to
>explain.
It's like these theories are a ring we wear what corrupts us.
jesshc
> In article <1179865459.933976.103...@z24g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, jesshc> >> In article <1179758552.695323.281...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, jesshc
> >> <jes...@phantomemail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >Toon wrote:
> >> >> On 17 May 2007 05:52:50 -0700, Sirius Kase <SiriusK...@gmail.com>
I remembered the gist of the quote, and thought it merited comment. I
made it clear my memory was fuzzy; I would have thought it was obvious
I didn't have the books handy to refer to, but wanted to mention the
idea, since it struck me as significant and didn't want to let it slip
away. Rather than say something like "That's interesting," or "Could
you look that up for me?" or "We've already discussed that," you
jumped at the opportunity to offer rudeness. If you were trying to be
playful or funny, you need some practice.
> Just to show that I still have some academic spirit left, here¹s your
> ickle quote from GoF <ahem>, Ch. 21:
This is you being friendly, is it?
> »Can¹t house-elves speak their minds about their masters,
> then?« Harry asked.
> »Oh no, sir, no«, said Dobby, looking suddenly serious. »¹Tis
> part of the house-elf¹s enslavement, sir. We keeps their secrets
> and our silence, sir. We upholds the family¹s honor, and we
> never speaks ill of them though Professor Dumbledore told
> Dobby he does not insist upon this. Professor Dumbledore said
> we is free to toŠ«
> Dobby looked suddenly nervous and beckoned Harry closer.
> Harry bent forward. Dobby whispered, »He said we is free to call
> him a a barmy old codger if we likes, sir!«
> Dobby gave a frightened sort of giggle.
> »But Dobby is not wanting to, Harry Potter«, he said, talking
> normally again, and shaking his head so that his ears flapped.
> »Dobby likes Professor Dumbledore very much, sir, and is proud
> to keep his secrets and our silence for him.«
Bravo. That's the one.
> Now do your own homework.
Did I ask anyone to do my homework? Had anyone asked nicely, I might
have taken the time to find the quote, after I'd gotten home from
work. Since you've twice now made it clear you aren't interested,
there isn't much point, is there?
Drusilla
Did we were told when LV realised about the connexion? Was because of
him sensing Harry's feelings?
Toon
Chris) wrote:
>»Can¹t house-elves speak their minds about their masters,
>then?« Harry asked.
>»Oh no, sir, no«, said Dobby, looking suddenly serious. »¹Tis
>part of the house-elf¹s enslavement, sir. We keeps their secrets
>and our silence, sir. We upholds the family¹s honor, and we
>never speaks ill of them though Professor Dumbledore told
>Dobby he does not insist upon this. Professor Dumbledore said
>we is free to toŠ«
>Dobby looked suddenly nervous and beckoned Harry closer.
>Harry bent forward. Dobby whispered, »He said we is free to call
>him a a barmy old codger if we likes, sir!«
>Dobby gave a frightened sort of giggle.
>»But Dobby is not wanting to, Harry Potter«, he said, talking
>normally again, and shaking his head so that his ears flapped.
>»Dobby likes Professor Dumbledore very much, sir, and is proud
>to keep his secrets and our silence for him.«
>
>Now do your own homework.
So, house elves (at least freed ones) consider themselves enslaved to
wizards. But the ending sounds more like in principle than anything
specific. He can tell DD's secrets if he wants to, but he won't. Just
like Dobby specifically has no master, but will always obey any
command of Harry's. Dobby, and the other elves, have that choice. Why
would Dd tell his secrets to someone not bound to keep em quiet?
richard e white
> On 17 May 2007 05:52:50 -0700, Sirius Kase <Siriu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Honey didn't say they were. When DD mentioned the RoR in book 4, he
> >seemed to have been unaware of it before the Chamber Pot incident. In
> >CoS, it was stated that DD had searched the entire castle and never
> >fournd the Chamber of Secrets. Honey restated both of those facts in
> >separate sentences. Your head connected them somehow.
>
> Further, he always knew the COS existed (well, since 50 years ago).
> Even after he stumbled upon the ROR, he still didn't know what it was,
> having gone looking for it again and never finding it. Nor another
> room in it's place. Dobby, OTOH, seemed well aquatinted with it. So,
> the Elves are keeping secrets, even from DD.
I don't think so. I think DD knew more about tthe ror then he was admiting
to. If you read or lissen to the passage where DD talks about it you may
note hints that DD was makeing a joke of the whole thing. Harry notes it
at the time. I think DD was needling the durmstrain headmaster. But DD
might have been trying to help harry at the same time. It could be DD's
way of trying to help the champions. They where all there and all could of
used the information. Think of how that room could have helped harry in
his surch for how to breath underwater or practis spells.
But while DD might try and help I don't think he would faver any one of
them. Or it may just have been a joke to DD.
But the coment about DD's eyes here makes me think he knew of the room.
--
Richard The Blind Typer.
Lets hear it for talking computers.
Lets go for talking i-pods!
richard e white
It was said in the kitchen in book fore when Harry was asking about
houseelves saying there minds. Harry was working around to ask about draco's
family.
Still you may have something there. and I can see that the house elves would
have a great many secrets of the headmaster and the school. The better
question would be how could one of these help Harry?
And wouldn't they just keep the next headmaster or head mistress' secrets?
richard e white
Because he might want it let out at the right time would be my guess.
Dobby would be a good target for that kind of leaked information. In fact
that might be why Dobby told about the RoR. DD is smart enugf to know
that Dobby will tell anything to harry if it would help harry. But Dobby
wouldn't give the secret to any one else or even to Harry if it wouldn't
help Harry.
So yes Dobby could be used that way. As could the portrit, the pensive or
even old notes of DD. The real question is witch will JKR use?
For I think it most likely that some information will turn up by one of
these means.
richard e white
> On 2007-05-18 07:52:07 -0400, Toon <to...@toon.com> said:
>
> > On Thu, 17 May 2007 11:19:08 -0400, Lyle Francis Delp
> > <theel...@manhattan.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2007-05-16 18:27:25 -0400, "Matt Clara" <hey.w...@buzz.off> said:
> >>
> >>> <honeysuc...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >>> news:1179335756.6...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> >>>> On May 16, 11:48 am, "Matt Clara" <hey.woo...@buzz.off> wrote:
> >>>>> <honeysuckler3...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >>>>>
> >>>>> news:1179315699.0...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> If Harry got some of LV powers the night he tried to kill him then it
> >>>>>> stands to reason that harry would have some ability with Occlumency.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why? There's zero evidence for that. You're just making stuff up, you are.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> If you have read the books then you know I am not making anything up.
> >>>> In one of the books DD mentioned the their was a room in the castle he
> >>>> only saw one time He needed to use the bathroom and a room appeared
> >>>> full of chamber pots. I don't think DD knew about the room of
> >>>> requirements. It is very possible since they searched the castle threw
> >>>> and threw and never found the Chamber of secrets.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> What in the world does that have to do with "harry would have some
> >>> ability with Occlumency" due to his interaction with LV? Let me try to
> >>> be clear: you state there's reason to believe the above is true, but
> >>> there is no reason, none given in the books, to believe Harry has
> >>> gained occlumency abilities from LV. This doesn't rule it out, but
> >>> there is no such reason. Thus you're just making stuff up.
> >>
> >> If LV transferred his ability with Parseltongue to Harry, why
> >> not Occlumency and Legilimency? DD told Harry that LV
> >> transferred some of his powers to Harry the night he tried
> >> to kill him as a baby. Perhaps he did and they just haven't
> >> manifested themselves yet.
> >
> > Some, not all. PT and Legils, yes, Occuls no. We've seen he can't do
> > it.
>
> Yet.
>
> Just because Occlumency hasn't manifested itself yet,
> doesn't mean that it never will.
>
> I think Snape sabotaged the lessons...or at least he couldn't
> put his hatred of James/Harry aside long enough to teach
> Harry properly. One or the other.
>
> --
> Yeah! Lyle Francis Delp
> Ya wanna make somethin' outtavit?
JKR said Harry never would be all that good at oucc in an interview. And I'm not sure
that is the only way to fight back aginst leg. In the battle aginst V in the grave
yard Harry did best when he stood up to fight with out knowing what he was going to do
next. V was unable to stop harry or antisapate harrys actions at that point. This
seams to point to the idea that a person just reacting on the spot removes the
advantage that Leg can give a wizard in a duel.
The other side of the coin is that Harry was vary calm at that point and may have been
doing Oucc with out knowing it. So there is one small bit of evadence. The problem
is that it can be used for either side of the thoughts.
Still Harry may still be able to use Oucc at the right time even if he can't do it at
will when he wants.
As to Harry being able to do Leg? I think the anser is that some times he can. He
often gets feelings that some one is lieing or doesn't belive him. The problem with
useing this as evadence is that it is either bad or just Harry reading other peoples
faces. Every one can do it to some extent. And that's the problem. When is it meant
to be magic and when is it just reading faces and the tone of voice.
What I find more intresting is how Harry can tell when DD, snape and others are useing
more then normal face reading. Even before Harry knew about these two skills he had
identified the piercing gaze no matter who was useing it. To me this seams to be a
lower level of the leg. The part that just lets the user know about lies. Harry has
felt it from DD, snape and V.
Even if Harry can't use Oucc fully I think Leg might be another matter.
For JKR has already shown that harry can use love to force V out of his mind. I
wounder if this is a way that Snape didn't bother with?
richard e white
> On 2007-05-19 01:04:01 -0400, Toon <to...@toon.com> said:
>
> > On Fri, 18 May 2007 14:04:02 -0400, Lyle Francis Delp
> > <theel...@manhattan.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Yet.
> >>
> >> Just because Occlumency hasn't manifested itself yet,
> >> doesn't mean that it never will.
> >
> > Well, he gained Parseltongue, and automatically does it. He seems to
> > have gained Legils, and automatically does it when asleep.
>
> Here's the problem. It's never been stated that Harry's
> scar connection with LV is actually Legilimency, has it?
> Therefore, it can't be categorically stated that he
> automatically does it when asleep.
>
> > Why would
> > he gain Occuls, and not only never automatically do it, but when he
> > practices it, he can't do it? Doesn't fit the pattern.
>
> Because, as an angry teenager, and being taunted and
> bullied by Snape, he can't clear his mind. That's the first
> step. If Harry can't do that, Occlumency can't occur.
>
> Ironically, the killing of DD may have been just the thing
> that will clear Harry's mind and set him on his quest.
> Sometimes it takes such a shock to do this.
>
> > All of V's
> > powers that were transferred have been automatically activated (at
> > least subconsciously, ala Harry's pre training magic as a kid). To
> > suddenly have one not be automatic and not work when taught (however
> > poorly) doesn't fit, nor does it make any sense.
>
> Except that Harry's mind must be cleared for it to work.
>
> I'm not stating categorically the Occlumency was included in
> LV's "magical care pakage". Just a thought. But, I'm also not
> quite sure that Legilimency was either. Although it has been
> stated that the scar is the connection, it's never stated that
> connection is Legilimency.
>
> --
> Yeah! Lyle Francis Delp
> Ya wanna make somethin' outtavit?
In fact the books say it doesn't follow the same rules. I think that means
it is something else that is doing that conection.
richard e white
What do you think would happen if you sent one at the person sending a AK at
you?
True it might miss and still hit you or some thing near you.
But what if the AK hit the Patronus? Would it fly right through?
After all the AK seams to get it's power from Hate and wanting the target
dead, and the Patronus gets it's power from love and joy. These spells seam
counter to eachother. Would they cancel out?
What do you people think?
>
> Joe Bednorz
richard e white
> On Sat, 19 May 2007 05:44:37 -0400, Lyle Francis Delp wrote in
> <2007051905443716807-theelevator@manhattancom>:
>
> >
> >I'm not stating categorically the Occlumency was included in
> >LV's "magical care pakage". Just a thought. But, I'm also not
> >quite sure that Legilimency was either. Although it has been
> >stated that the scar is the connection, it's never stated that
> >connection is Legilimency.
>
> Not to mention that even Harry isn't sure that he want to succeed with
> Occlumency. Harry wants to know what's at the end of the corridor in
> his dreams in OotP. Just as Harry is conflicted when practicing the
> Patronus in PoA, since it would prevent him from hearing his parents'
> voices.
>
> In reality, of course, JKR just throws in magic in fits and starts to
> keep the pot boiling. Remember Time Turners? Too dangerous to use to
> stop the horrible murders performed by Voldemort and the DE, even by
> specially trained wizards. But to save Sirius and Buckbeak, or even to
> just let a schoolgirl take extra classes, no problem!
>
> --
> Links to Gigabytes of free books on line, emphasis on SF:
> <http://www.mindspring.com/~jbednorz/Free/>
> All the Best,
> Joe Bednorz
The time turners where a young writer's mistake. JKR said so her self. I
don't think she realized all the problems that putting them in made. That's
why she had the hole lot destroyed. The problem is why would any one give
that sort of thing to a kid? Even if it had built in safe gaurds the thing
was to dangerous.
But the real problem is that why wouldn't a fanatic use it to go back and
stop something from happening. The mom had many that would have fallen in
to this way of thinking. But then we haven't seen or heard that this may
have happend many times but Harry just wasn't told.
richard e white
> "Toon" <to...@toon.com> wrote in message
> news:10lo431emmobu29ad...@4ax.com...
> > On Wed, 16 May 2007 14:55:20 -0500, drusilla
> > <gammanormids*erasethis*@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Matt Clara escribió:
> >>> <honeysuc...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >>> news:1179315699.0...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> >>>> If Harry got some of LV powers the night he tried to kill him then it
> >>>> stands to reason that harry would have some ability with Occlumency.
> >>>
> >>> Why? There's zero evidence for that. You're just making stuff up, you
> >>> are.
> >>
> >>Mmm... perhaps Harry has the ability and potential but he doesn't know
> >>how to work it nor is able to. You need to control your emotions to
> >>master Occlumency, and that's something Harry is unable to do.
> >
> > But he automatically Legils V in his dreams. He can't Occul, but he
> > got instant Legiling capabilities. Nobody ever taught him. Seems
> > when his scar starts up, his subconscious logs on to V. Harry needs
> > to learn to do this consciously, and not use his emotion detecting
> > scar.
>
> You can also add in the fact that even with Snape's poor teaching Harry DID
> invade Snape's mind, something it seems that no one else has been able to
> do. Not Dd or Tommy, that we know of anyway. Just like he got some answers
> for some of the OWL's from someone's mind or so it seems, whether it was
> from Parvati, at whom he was staring at (well the way the light looked thru
> her hair anyway) or from Hermione who was just ahead and to the side of
> Parv, which Harry made mention of.
I think you got the wrong end of the stick there. The way I read that part
thoes owl ansers came from harry's own mind when he cleared his mind of the fog
that was decending on him. Remember that harry hears a buzzing in his ears. He
takes it for an insect. But I think it was the spell from the HBP's book that
harry and ron some times used so no one could lissen in. I think Snape was
implanting the dream that harry had in the owl history test. Snape would need
to not be seen or heard as he did it.
True I have no evadence other then the odd mind fog and that odd sound. But I
think it shows that some one was there doing something and I think Snape was the
one. Though he may just have been putting harry to sleep for V to send the
dream.
>
>
> So IF we get the info in the 7th book that Harry gained those abilities as
> well as Parsel and whatever else he may have gotten then we have a
> precedence to look back on and go 'Ahh ok'. Like we had the set up for Harry
> being able to see in Tommy's mind thru his dreams and 'feel' his emotions
> based on his scar hurting since the very first book.
>
> Stuff is there if it's needed to go back and re-look at.
>
> Just sayin is all.
richard e white
> "Toon" <to...@toon.com> wrote in message
> news:bt4r43t7g0krh2teq...@4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 17 May 2007 19:58:20 -0400, "CH" <ezg...@iwon.com> wrote:
> >
> >>You can also add in the fact that even with Snape's poor teaching Harry
> >>DID
> >>invade Snape's mind, something it seems that no one else has been able to
> >>do. Not Dd or Tommy, that we know of anyway.
> >
> > And Snape expected it, because he removed certain memories he didn't
> > want to be seen.
>
> Don't know if we should look at that as Snape expecting it or just being
> overly cautious and doing it just in case. Altho that is something to think
> about. Him expecting Harry to be that powerful at it.
But harry wasn't that powerfull. Harry's shield spell rebounded Snapes own
spell. Snape would have been faceing his own power and harry's do to that odd
turn around of spells. Remember it was snape's own leg spell that was twisted.
richard e white
> On Thu, 17 May 2007 21:38:11 -0500, Drusilla
> <gammanormids*erasethis*@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Toon escribió:
> >> On Wed, 16 May 2007 14:55:20 -0500, drusilla
> >> <gammanormids*erasethis*@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Matt Clara escribió:
> >>>> <honeysuc...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >>>> news:1179315699.0...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> >>>>> If Harry got some of LV powers the night he tried to kill him then it
> >>>>> stands to reason that harry would have some ability with Occlumency.
> >>>> Why? There's zero evidence for that. You're just making stuff up, you are.
> >>> Mmm... perhaps Harry has the ability and potential but he doesn't know
> >>> how to work it nor is able to. You need to control your emotions to
> >>> master Occlumency, and that's something Harry is unable to do.
> >>
> >> But he automatically Legils V in his dreams. He can't Occul, but he
> >> got instant Legiling capabilities. Nobody ever taught him. Seems
> >> when his scar starts up, his subconscious logs on to V. Harry needs
> >> to learn to do this consciously, and not use his emotion detecting
> >> scar.
> >
> >I don't know if that applies as Legimency. Ok, sure there is a
> >connection between them but I suppose that only places Harry as an
> >antenna or receptor, something no one else is able to be. Just because
> >someone puts memories in your mind, doesn't mean you can read them.
>
> But Harry was riding shotgun with V as Nagini. I think that was full
> legils. He subconsciously connected and legilsed him, and saw what he
> saw.
No. that was possestion. It is another one of V's powers.
richard e white
> On Sat, 19 May 2007 22:47:33 -0500, Drusilla
> <gammanormids*erasethis*@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> But Harry was riding shotgun with V as Nagini. I think that was full
> >> legils. He subconsciously connected and legilsed him, and saw what he
> >> saw.
> >
> >I think it's something different. Like they share one mind at the same
> >time. We know Legilimency can see thoughts and memories, but we don't
> >know for sure if it shows what the person being read is seeing and
> >thinking at the same moment, like a movie.
> >
> >ALthough we know that Harry and Voldemort is an exception to almost any
> >rule.
>
> They could have created an advanced form of it. Like, DD thinks V's
> control of Nagini is form having his soul in her. I say, he developed
> an advanced form of Parseltongue.
>
> Perhaps this is the side effect of having part of another's soul
> inside you. You mind meld with ease.
I doubt it. I think it is the result of V's possestion of the snake. I
think it was the snake V had inhabited before peter made him a crude body.
Having been part of the snake for a time V would most likely know it better
and this would let V control it better.
Then when harry saw ron's dad attacked it was beccause Harry was in V's mind
and V just happen to be possesing the snake at that time.
richard e white
> Toon escribió:
> > On Sat, 19 May 2007 22:47:33 -0500, Drusilla
> > <gammanormids*erasethis*@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> But Harry was riding shotgun with V as Nagini. I think that was full
> >>> legils. He subconsciously connected and legilsed him, and saw what he
> >>> saw.
> >> I think it's something different. Like they share one mind at the same
> >> time. We know Legilimency can see thoughts and memories, but we don't
> >> know for sure if it shows what the person being read is seeing and
> >> thinking at the same moment, like a movie.
> >>
> >> ALthough we know that Harry and Voldemort is an exception to almost any
> >> rule.
> >
> > They could have created an advanced form of it. Like, DD thinks V's
> > control of Nagini is form having his soul in her. I say, he developed
> > an advanced form of Parseltongue.
> >
> > Perhaps this is the side effect of having part of another's soul
> > inside you. You mind meld with ease.
>
> Maybe. This power activated when LV regained his body though. Before
> that, he just felt him when he was around, but nothing of sharing
> thoughts. I suppose this might be a clue but I can't figure out why.
I'm not so sure that it didn't work before. It is mentioned that harry had
dreams with a lot of green light. It might have been Harry remembering or it
might have been V or for that matter both.
But I think the power has always been there. It's just that as harry grew in
power so did this abilty. As to why it started after V returned to a body, I
think it has to do with how weak V was. B had to spend all his time willing
him self to egsist. Then he gets a body back and he grows stronger. He gets
his old body back and he gains even more power. I think the idea of Harry
acting like an antina is right for both sides of the link. A stronger V sends
out stronger waves and harry can recive them better.
But now that I think about it it started in book fore not after. Harry saw
some part of the old muggle's death. So V was sending waves out from the
start of book fore.
I think the hint is that V is growing stronger and harry as well. The odd
part is that as they grow so does the link.
richard e white
> On Sun, 20 May 2007 21:31:26 -0500, Drusilla
> <gammanormids*erasethis*@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Toon escribió:
> >> On Sat, 19 May 2007 22:47:33 -0500, Drusilla
> >> <gammanormids*erasethis*@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> But Harry was riding shotgun with V as Nagini. I think that was full
> >>>> legils. He subconsciously connected and legilsed him, and saw what he
> >>>> saw.
> >>> I think it's something different. Like they share one mind at the same
> >>> time. We know Legilimency can see thoughts and memories, but we don't
> >>> know for sure if it shows what the person being read is seeing and
> >>> thinking at the same moment, like a movie.
> >>>
> >>> ALthough we know that Harry and Voldemort is an exception to almost any
> >>> rule.
> >>
> >> They could have created an advanced form of it. Like, DD thinks V's
> >> control of Nagini is form having his soul in her. I say, he developed
> >> an advanced form of Parseltongue.
> >>
> >> Perhaps this is the side effect of having part of another's soul
> >> inside you. You mind meld with ease.
> >
> >Maybe. This power activated when LV regained his body though. Before
> >that, he just felt him when he was around, but nothing of sharing
> >thoughts. I suppose this might be a clue but I can't figure out why.
>
> Double link. V's soul bit in Harry, Harry's blood in V. Burts the
> door to each other wide open. previously, they needed to be in close
> proximity, and then only extreme emotional thoughts were detected, and
> just their emotions, like an EMpath or such.
No. The start of the link is with Franks death.
richard e white
No. He felt Harry in the snake with him.
Steve Morrison
news:46570218...@cox.net:
That's what I've always assumed, too. DD's anecdote about finding
a room full of chamber pots sounds like his style of whimsical
humor -- similar to his claim that he saw himself with socks in
the Mirror of Erised. Not everything he says can be taken literally!
Steve Morrison
At that point Voldemort already had a kind of ersatz body due to
Wormtail's help.
Green-Eyed Chris
wrote:
>I was woundering the other night about the Patronus charm.
>What do you think would happen if you sent one at the person sending a AK at
>you?
>True it might miss and still hit you or some thing near you.
>But what if the AK hit the Patronus? Would it fly right through?
>After all the AK seams to get it's power from Hate and wanting the target
>dead, and the Patronus gets it's power from love and joy. These spells seam
>counter to eachother. Would they cancel out?
>What do you people think?
The thought almost automatically comes to mind every time I read OotP, Ch. 36:
łFawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his
beak wide and swallowed the jet of green light whole˛.
Perhaps we are allowed to presume that both spells can be cast with the
same speed since both have six syllables to be spoken. Even if we presume
that an AK used by Moodycrouch to kill a spider is as effective as one LV
would send against Harry, we still seem to have a certain amount of
variability with the Patronus Charm as indicated by Snapeąs comments
regarding Tonksą Patronus.
Big help, huh?
--
Chris
Dragon Rider
> So yes Dobby could be used that way. As could the portrit, the pensive or
> even old notes of DD. The real question is witch will JKR use?
> For I think it most likely that some information will turn up by one of
> these means.
I still put my money in Aberforth, even if it is to deliver the old
notes (or a letter) to Harry.
Ron Hunter
to the AK. Want to be the test case? Grin.
Toon
Goat Gram for Harry Potter
Toon
wrote:
>JKR said Harry never would be all that good at oucc in an interview. And I'm not sure
>that is the only way to fight back aginst leg. In the battle aginst V in the grave
>yard Harry did best when he stood up to fight with out knowing what he was going to do
>next. V was unable to stop harry or antisapate harrys actions at that point. This
>seams to point to the idea that a person just reacting on the spot removes the
>advantage that Leg can give a wizard in a duel.
>The other side of the coin is that Harry was vary calm at that point and may have been
>doing Oucc with out knowing it. So there is one small bit of evadence. The problem
>is that it can be used for either side of the thoughts.
Or, Voldemort didn't bother to Legils him because he thought the
pathetic whelp was worthless and couldn't do squat to him. he's big
bad Vodlemort, and this is some dumb kid who got lucky once upon a
time when Mommy inadvertently gave him an ancient protection. he's
fighting Harry as final proof he is too all that. No need to Legils
him.
But now, after all the humiliating defeats, the DE's whisper Harry is
indeed a force to be reckoned with, he's not taking any chances. and
if he was aware Snape was teaching Harry Occuls, he'll know he can
easily Legils him, and that's why Snap wanted Harry to understand the
need for Occuls, because he's doomed in the future fight if he
doesn't, as V will Legils him this time.
Toon
wrote:
>The time turners where a young writer's mistake. JKR said so her self.
The problem is people want to use time travel as a cure all, the
ultimate undo. Sirius dies, go back and save him. DD dies, go back
and save him. V a threat, go back and kill him as a baby. Most
people can't think outside the box, and can't understand that changing
things can have very dire consequences. The first and foremost is,
once changed, why would your new timeline counterpart go back? When I
longed to Time Travel to fix things, or more precisely, prevent
problem areas, I always planned to leave my past self a note,
informing myself when to go back and what to do. It avoids the
problem of why would I go back? Anyhting's fine.
Sirius and DD's deaths are powerful motivators to get Harry to take
action against Voldemort. Without the deaths, Harry would never
actively engage him, and he needs to fight and hopefully win to save
the world. Change that, and Harry has no reason to fight.
There's no need to go back and save James or Lily, as that'll alter
events to come. A live Lily offers Harry no protection, and V's still
terrorizing for 13 years. A live James might find away to remove
whatever V put in Harry when he failed to kill him, and that could
weaken Harry's potential.
But most folks can't understand the idea of change. Thye see their
tiny little world, and not the big picture. So, they expect time
travel to solve everything.
Why not have Harry time travel five times to the same point in time,
and the 6 Harrys all surround and attack V at once? Bound to kill him
that way. But maybe too many of the same person at the same time
kills them all? Who knows? You can't just pop back and make things
all better. Heck, Hermionr tried just to take extra classes and
missed one. Now, in the grand scheme of things, that's nothing, but
imagine it being very important that you don't miss an event.
It's not so much the author's folly, but the readers, because they
believe there's now a silver bullet to solve every problem.
And why people must never be allowed to time travel. If time is
mutable, they'll muck it up big time, because they can't see past
their own immediate concerns. You think pushing your dad out of the
path of an oncoming car is a good thing, but then your mom falls in
love with you, and you and your siblings fade from existence. And
where not even going to discuss the human urge to go back and kill
their grandfather before he had kids.
Toon
wrote:
>True I have no evadence other then the odd mind fog and that odd sound. But I
>think it shows that some one was there doing something and I think Snape was the
>one. Though he may just have been putting harry to sleep for V to send the
>dream.
Amazing how Snape is the key to everything, isn't it? Every wild eyed
theory involves Snape as the ultimate hero/villain.
Ron Hunter
Given that my father in law (who is 90) complains often of being cold,
especially his feet, I suspect DD who is supposed to be about 150 might
be quite honest in this statement. Grin.
Toon
wrote:
But he didn't know Harry would do that. Or how well his shield would
hold up if he suspected him to use one.
Dragon Rider
> On Fri, 25 May 2007 09:22:13 -0700, richard e white <chip...@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
> >The time turners where a young writer's mistake. JKR said so her self.
>
> The problem is people want to use time travel as a cure all, the
> ultimate undo. Sirius dies, go back and save him. DD dies, go back
> and save him. V a threat, go back and kill him as a baby. Most
> people can't think outside the box, and can't understand that changing
> things can have very dire consequences. The first and foremost is,
> once changed, why would your new timeline counterpart go back? When I
> longed to Time Travel to fix things, or more precisely, prevent
> problem areas, I always planned to leave my past self a note,
> informing myself when to go back and what to do. It avoids the
> problem of why would I go back? Anyhting's fine.
VERY well said! Most good fiction writers don't meddle with time-
travel due to paradoxes like those you described. People apparently
can't think of time as river: putting a conduit from a place further
down the current to a place before it may cause some temporary waves,
but after some time it settles. In other words, time-travel or any
"changes" in time events are only allowed if they lead to exactly the
situation were the time-traveller departed.
At least I give credit to JKR for doing it correctly and not allowing
the kids to actually change any of the previous events, just watch
them. And any events in which they participated had already been
experienced by their former selves.
The only other sensible way of time-travel is depicted in Isaac
Asimov's ETERNITY, where the travellers are separated from normal time-
space. Even so, they are only able to change events from the point the
separation is set up (23rd century, IIRC) and call previous times
"Primitive history". And they make it clear that Primitive history
allow of no changes, since it might mean the separation would be
destroyed.
Clell Harmon
If time travel is possible, is has/is/will be done. If time is
mutable, it's already been muted, if anyone has/is/will kill your
grandfather before he fathered any kids, he/she already has/will/is
going to.
In short, time travel is nothing to worry about, because if it can
happen, it already has. Our only problem with it is defining a time
travel tense so that grammar doesn't suffer any more than absolutely
necessary.
Joe Bednorz
<4%Z5i.134027$_c5.125355@attbi_s22>:
> If time travel is possible, is has/is/will be done. If time is
>mutable, it's already been muted, if anyone has/is/will kill your
>grandfather before he fathered any kids, he/she already has/will/is
>going to.
>
Exactly. That was the whole message of the rescue section of PoA.
Harry's future self is even permitted to rescue his earlier self.
This permitted his earlier self to survive to become his future self.
That's not just time travel. That's pulling yourself up by your
bootstraps.
Compared to that sending the trained MoM hit wizards back in time to
capture Voldemort at the end of OotP is a piece of cake.
But there are other game-breakers in the series. Veritaserum solves
the whole problem of "Who's a Death Eater?" Sirius never goes to
Azkaban. (Heck, Hagrid never goes to Azkaban and isn't expelled from
Hogwarts.) Harry and Dumbledore are never doubted by the MoM in OotP.
Harry's testimony at the end of PoA would convince the MoM that Sirius
is innocent, Pettigrew is alive and the prophesied to restore
Voldemort, etc.
A single session with Snape drinking Veritaserum easily explains why
Dumbledore trusts him.
Polyjuice potion and the Imperius Curse mean you can't trust anyone,
unless you use Veritaserum properly.
Portkeys allow easy travel to and from the Hogwarts grounds.
The luck serum can make anyone into Superman. It's so good it's
banned at sporting competitions.
The Harry Potter saga isn't a story so much as a series of
tastefully arranged plot holes.
Sirius Kase
> On Fri, 25 May 2007 09:22:13 -0700, richard e white <chiph...@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
> >The time turners where a young writer's mistake. JKR said so her self.
>
> The problem is people want to use time travel as a cure all, the
> ultimate undo. Sirius dies, go back and save him.
Even though Rowling has clearly explained that you can't change time,
but we haven't yet seen what happens if you try. The temptation must
be enornmous.
>
> It's not so much the author's folly, but the readers, because they
> believe there's now a silver bullet to solve every problem.
Readers sure aren't very imaginitive and for some reason desire
Rowling to be just as unimaginative. Come on, folks, we've seen trme
travel, it's time for something else.
>
> And why people must never be allowed to time travel. If time is
> mutable, they'll muck it up big time, because they can't see past
> their own immediate concerns.
Even if we can't change time. People would have just as much trouble
understanding that for real as they do when they read HP, and just
trying to use TT to fix stuff would cause problems, even if time never
was actually changed.
> You think pushing your dad out of the
> path of an oncoming car is a good thing, but then your mom falls in
> love with you, and you and your siblings fade from existence. And
> where not even going to discuss the human urge to go back and kill
> their grandfather before he had kids.
Interesting twist on the Oedipus complex. No killing of dad in this
version, lol.
Sirius Kase
> On Fri, 25 May 2007 09:34:13 -0700, richard e white <chiph...@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
> >True I have no evadence other then the odd mind fog and that odd sound. But I
> >think it shows that some one was there doing something and I think Snape was the
> >one. Though he may just have been putting harry to sleep for V to send the
> >dream.
>
> Amazing how Snape is the key to everything, isn't it? Every wild eyed
> theory involves Snape as the ultimate hero/villain.
He may not be everyone's favorite character, but he tops for poll for
being most interesting character.
Dragon Rider
I think it's a reference to the plot of the original *Back to the
future* movie. I don't remember the grandfather part, though.
Dragon Rider
After it was revealed that it was Snape that overheard the prophecy, I
remembered an interview were JKR was asked if she was "going to solve
every one of the mysteries" and she answered she "was going to wrap it
all up in one big knot."
So it seems the overall arch has only a few players: the Potters, LV,
Snape and DD. This fits with the way she explained she imagined the
series, asking herself questions about why Harry was an orphan, why he
was a wizard and so on.
The story is already complex enough with LV not dying because of his
Horcruxes; the rest really must be quite straightforward, with the
reason for Snape's turn, RAB defection and whatever we still have to
learn about Lily all being interlinked.
Toon
>At least I give credit to JKR for doing it correctly and not allowing
>the kids to actually change any of the previous events, just watch
>them. And any events in which they participated had already been
>experienced by their former selves.
Predetermined time travel. The Federation hates those. But Star Trek
at least had an interesting take on altering's. Alter history before
time travel occurs, and it never happened (DS9, Defiant lands on a
planet populated by the crew's descendants after an accident. Future
Time traveled Odo alters history before the time travel takes place,
wipes out everybody). Alter afterwards, and the original altering's
have happened and some remnants might still exist (Voyager goes back
to 1996, learns time travel accident gave 20th century computer
revolution, prevents the guy from going back, yet tech still there.).
Dragon Rider
> Predetermined time travel. The Federation hates those. But Star Trek
> at least had an interesting take on altering's. Alter history before
> time travel occurs, and it never happened (DS9, Defiant lands on a
> planet populated by the crew's descendants after an accident. Future
> Time traveled Odo alters history before the time travel takes place,
> wipes out everybody). Alter afterwards, and the original altering's
> have happened and some remnants might still exist (Voyager goes back
> to 1996, learns time travel accident gave 20th century computer
> revolution, prevents the guy from going back, yet tech still there.).
Star Trek's take on science is abysmal. It looks as they don't even
have a decent physics/engineer consultant, all they do is change the
phase of a previously never-heard-of equipment and canalize the result
through the main deflector.
Although I concede DS9 and Voyager are (only a little) better. But
it's still a lot of technobabble if compared to the Original Series.
Sirius Kase
Yeah, I know what it's a reference to....I've seen that movie, too.
Joe Bednorz
<1180239492.0...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>:
He's the only major character there is any doubt about. I'm also
beginning to suspect it doesn't matter whether he's good or bad.
(Remember folks, you heard it here first!)
If both Snape and Harry are alive at the end of DH I wouldn't be
surprised if Snape just goes on teaching at Hogwarts while Harry gets
on with his life elsewhere.
Toon
wrote:
There's no reason for any of it have had to already happen.
Toon
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Polyjuice potion and the Imperius Curse mean you can't trust anyone,
>unless you use Veritaserum properly.
But it's not easily used properly. Many can get past it. An antidote
for starters.
Siirus would never be given it even if fool proof, because the MOM
likes scapegoats. Sirius, Stan, basically anyone with an S for
scapegoat.
Barbarossa
> >> Amazing how Snape is the key to everything, isn't it?
> >> Every wild eyed theory involves Snape as the ultimate
> >> hero/villain.
Sirius Kase wrote
> >He may not be everyone's favorite character, but he tops for
> >poll for being most interesting character.
Joe Bednorz wrote:
> He's the only major character there is any doubt about. I'm
> also beginning to suspect it doesn't matter whether he's good
> or bad. (Remember folks, you heard it here first!)
>
> If both Snape and Harry are alive at the end of DH I
> wouldn't be surprised if Snape just goes on teaching at
> Hogwarts while Harry gets on with his life elsewhere.
Barbarossa:
My bet (possibly a long shot) is that when the dust clears
Severus Snape will have mysteriously disappeared, whereabouts
(and fate) unknown.
--
________B___a___r___b___a___r___o___s___s___a________
Wayne B. Hewitt Encinitas, CA whe...@ucsd.edu
Toon
wrote:
>Even though Rowling has clearly explained that you can't change time,
Actually, she specifically says you can, hence the danger in it, and
why McGonnagel had to jump through hoops just to get hermione one.
Green-Eyed Chris
Barbarossa <whe...@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>Toon wrote:
>
>> >> Amazing how Snape is the key to everything, isn't it?
>> >> Every wild eyed theory involves Snape as the ultimate
>> >> hero/villain.
>
>Sirius Kase wrote
>
>> >He may not be everyone's favorite character, but he tops for
>> >poll for being most interesting character.
>
>Joe Bednorz wrote:
>
>> He's the only major character there is any doubt about. I'm
>> also beginning to suspect it doesn't matter whether he's good
>> or bad. (Remember folks, you heard it here first!)
>>
>> If both Snape and Harry are alive at the end of DH I
>> wouldn't be surprised if Snape just goes on teaching at
>> Hogwarts while Harry gets on with his life elsewhere.
>
>Barbarossa:
>
> My bet (possibly a long shot) is that when the dust clears
>Severus Snape will have mysteriously disappeared, whereabouts
>(and fate) unknown.
I donąt think itąs a long shot at all.
łOf Silver we have heard no more. That formidable seafaring man with one
leg has at last gone clean out of my life; but I dare say he met his old
Negress, and perhaps still lives in comfort with her and Captain Flint.
It is to be hoped so, I suppose, for his chances of comfort in another
world are very small.˛
--
Chris