Chapter of the Week - AGoT: Eddard I and Jon I
Trade Surplus
co-ordinated re-read of ASoIaF. For a list of assigned chapters and links to
previous CHOW threads see
http://www.geocities.com/eog...@snet.net/chapter_list.html. To volunteer to
lead a chapter thread email trades...@hotmail.com.
Eddard I
Eddard watches as King Robert's party arrives at Winterfell. With Robert
come many knights and retainers as well as three Lannisters, his wife
Cersei, her brothers Jaime and Tyrion. King Robert has changed since Ned
last saw him during Greyjoy's rebellion, from a huge, muscled hunk to a
huge, fat slob. As soon as the formalities of greeting were finished, Robert
asked to be taken to the crypts to pay his respects, pleasing Ned and
upsetting Cersei.
As Ned leads Robert down to Winterfell's crypt their conversation is uneasy,
jests somewhat forced. Robert tells Ned he should come South while the heat
of Summer lasts. Inside the crypt, at the bottom of the stairs, are long
lines of sepulchres of dead Lords of Winterfell, who before the Dragonlords
came were Kings in the North. The most recent tombs are those of Ned's
father, his brother Brandon, killed by mad King Aerys and his sister Lyanna,
dead at 16. Lyanna was to have been Robert's bride. Ned remembers Lyanna's
death when she asked him to promise her something and how Robert killed
Rhaegar at the Trident for what he did to her.
Robert tells Ned how Jon Arryn died quickly and Lysa Arryn took her son
Robert back to the Eyrie. Robert had wanted to foster the young Arryn with
Tywin Lannister. Ned thinks that is a terrible idea and offers to foster
Arryn himself but Robert refuses. Robert also says that Arryn will not be
Warden of the East, at least until he comes of age.
At last Robert gets to the reason for his visit. He is having a hard time of
it being King and wants Ned's help. Robert offers Ned the position of Hand
of the King, second most powerful man in the realm. He also offers to have
his son Joffrey marry Ned's daughter Sansa. Ned is not surprised by the
first offer but very surprised by the second. He doesn't want to be Hand of
the King but cannot refuse Robert outright. He asks for more time to think
it over and discuss it with Catelyn.
Points for discussion:
- Is a two-story horse drawn carriage really possible?
- Ned seems afraid of the old Kings of the North and also of the tombs
waiting for him and his children. Is Ned a wuss or what?
- Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses yet she apparently died of a
fever. No question, just a point of interest for the central
theory/controversy of the book.
- On the map, the road from Riverrun to the Eyrie crosses the Trident
upstream of the Kingsroad. Is this a flaw in the map or are there multiple
fords over the Trident in this area?
- There's a nice reference here that I never caught before in the discussion
of Robert Arryn's fostering where Ned talks of wounds that never really
heal. I believe he must be talking about the fight he and Robert had over
Rhaegar's children. Is there anything else it could be?
- When Robert offers Ned the Handship he says that he needs someone to tell
him the truth, not just to flatter him with lies. It's ironic that it is
Ned's truthtelling that creates friction between them.
Gore-o-meter
Several deaths are mentioned and one war but all several years past. I give
this chapter one flesh gobbet out of five.
Jon I
The Starks are feasting their guests at Winterfell and Jon the bastard,
denied a place at the high table, takes the opportunity to get drunk. He
watches as the Lords proceed down the hall. Ned and Cersei. Robert and
Catelyn. Rickon. Robb and Myrcella. Arya and Tommen. Joffrey and Sansa.
Jaime and Tyrion. Benjen and Theon.
Jon drinks heavily from the start of the feast, enjoying the jokes of the
young men around him. He feeds his direwolf Ghost under the table and it is
Ghost that Benjen first talks about when he comes to sit with Jon.
Jon and Benjen both notice that Ned and Cersei are not very festive. Cersei
is upset that Robert went to see Lyanna. Benjen remarks on Jon's
observational skills and seems to encourage him to serve at the Wall but
when Jon says that he wants to take the black right now, Benjen has second
thoughts and discourages him, telling him he should wait a few more years.
Jon gets angry at that, especially when Benjen says he should father some
bastards, and staggers drunkenly from the hall.
Outside, Jon meets Tyrion, sitting on a ledge above the door. They talk
about Ghost for a bit then Tyrion offers Jon some good advice about how to
live when everyone views you with contempt.
Points of discussion:
- At the start of the chapter Jon says that this time he is glad that he is
a bastard but then goes on to get roaring drunk. Does anyone think that Jon
is really happy to be a bastard at this time?
- Tyrion is not just a dwarf, he's also deformed. Does anyone know if this
is a genuine medical problem or just something GRRM invented?
- Why on earth is Benjen on the wall? What crime did he commit? or shame did
he suffer? or is he just a masochist?
- Mmmmmm. Honeyed chicken. ggrrrgrgrrgrg.
- Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children. Is this
just a cover story for why Jon seems older than he is supposed to be? Let
the conspiracy theories fly.
- Benjen says that Jon should father a few bastards before taking the black
so he knows what he is giving up. But isn't the Night's Watch vow of
celibacy meant to prevent them having families that they might value above
their duty? Is Benjen trying to sabotage Jon or what?
- I've like Tyrion from this very first glimpse we get of him. How about
you?
Gore-o-meter:
Nothing gory at all. Zero flesh gobbets for this chapter.
Richard Boye'
>
> This is a Chapter of the Week (CHOW) post, part of alt.fan.grrm's
> co-ordinated re-read of ASoIaF. For a list of assigned chapters and links to
> previous CHOW threads see
> http://www.geocities.com/eog...@snet.net/chapter_list.html. To volunteer to
> lead a chapter thread email trades...@hotmail.com.
> Points for discussion:
> - Is a two-story horse drawn carriage really possible?
Sure. They were often used by Charlesmagne when transporting the royal
women of his party around the empire. Need an insane ammount of horses,
though.
> - Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses yet she apparently died of a
> fever. No question, just a point of interest for the central
> theory/controversy of the book.
Behold:
puerperal fever
NOUN: An illness resulting from infection of the endometrium following
childbirth or abortion, marked by fever and septicemia and usually
caused by unsterile technique. Also called childbed fever.
Sounds like something one might contract in an unsterile "bed of blood."
>
> - Why on earth is Benjen on the wall? What crime did he commit? or shame did
> he suffer? or is he just a masochist?
It seemed like something respectable a younger brother might do in light
of the fact that his older brother has a brood of heirs (at least was
well on the way to securing the family legacy, anyway). We have no idea
how young Benjen is, though - did he take the black after Catelyn had
Bran or what?
It's really no different then a younger son joining the Faith or the
Citadel - just that they are Northroners, so service on the Wall has
more primacy to them, I guess.
> - Mmmmmm. Honeyed chicken. ggrrrgrgrrgrg.
Many times, the food described makes my stomach growl.
> - Benjen says that Jon should father a few bastards before taking the black
> so he knows what he is giving up. But isn't the Night's Watch vow of
> celibacy meant to prevent them having families that they might value above
> their duty? Is Benjen trying to sabotage Jon or what?
No, just encouraging him to sow his wild oats before locking up his
gentitals forever.
> - I've like Tyrion from this very first glimpse we get of him. How about
> you?
Yes, easily the most affable and witty character in the entire saga.
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
Typing into the Void:
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/books/blogger.html
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound."
mgraves
> - Is a two-story horse drawn carriage really possible?
Yes. It is a blatant display of conspicuous consumption, yet it is possible
and historically accurate. Drawn by a team of Draft horses and with a
massive wheel base, the monstrosity would lumber along at the pace of a man
on foot. Later, Robert bitches about it breaking axles and getting stuck in
the mud constantly. It's the real deal alright. If in doubt, look at the 30
story siege engines or even modern SUV's. Height doesn't matter as long as
the wheel base and horsepower are there in equal proportion. I work for
Boeing and you could not possibly imagine what we are capable of not only
moving, but lifting off the ground as well.
> - Ned seems afraid of the old Kings of the North and also of the tombs
> waiting for him and his children. Is Ned a wuss or what?
No, I have met the Boltons and realize what would be required to terrify
them. I would be scared as well.
> - Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses yet she apparently died of a
> fever. No question, just a point of interest for the central
> theory/controversy of the book.
Not sure yet about the fever, but roses make me think of Tyrells. You can
see the mountains of Dorne from the vicinity of Highgarden, can't you?
> - On the map, the road from Riverrun to the Eyrie crosses the Trident
> upstream of the Kingsroad. Is this a flaw in the map or are there multiple
> fords over the Trident in this area?
The Trident is probably a large ford. Thus, the Eyrie and King's roads
might each tie into the river bed to meet at a single ideal crossing point.
> - There's a nice reference here that I never caught before in the
discussion
> of Robert Arryn's fostering where Ned talks of wounds that never really
> heal. I believe he must be talking about the fight he and Robert had over
> Rhaegar's children. Is there anything else it could be?
I think you are somewhat correct, but wrong nonetheless. Ned believes that
Tywin is a pedocidal maniac (just coined it myself, thank you very much) and
thinks that no children are safe with him. His problems with Robert aside,
Ned cannot accept the Lannisters as a House worthy of title given what he
has witnessed.
> - When Robert offers Ned the Handship he says that he needs someone to
tell
> him the truth, not just to flatter him with lies. It's ironic that it is
> Ned's truthtelling that creates friction between them.
Robert wanted to live a lie. Ned was naught but the messenger who was shot.
:( I hate it when I rhyme. I will not do it all the time, I would not do it
with a mime...
> Gore-o-meter
> Several deaths are mentioned and one war but all several years past. I
give
> this chapter one flesh gobbet out of five.
1 cc by my tally.
[HACK]
> - At the start of the chapter Jon says that this time he is glad that he
is
> a bastard but then goes on to get roaring drunk. Does anyone think that
Jon
> is really happy to be a bastard at this time?
No. I get roaring drunk all the time, but I am not unhappy nor am I a
bast.... Well I'm not unhappy at any rate.
> - Tyrion is not just a dwarf, he's also deformed. Does anyone know if this
> is a genuine medical problem or just something GRRM invented?
#1 dwarfism is a deformity. #2 do not confuse Tyrion with a midget. He is
a dwarf and dwarfs are mutated (Tolkien invented the plural form "dwarves".
I chose not to use it by the same logic that caused me to use the word
"midgets" instead of "hobbits").
> - Why on earth is Benjen on the wall? What crime did he commit? or shame
did
> he suffer? or is he just a masochist?
Why was Maester Aemon a Maester or why is Loras a member of the Kingsguard?
They are less likely to off their elder siblings in such a capacity. Sugar
coat it as you will, that is the hard truth.
> - Mmmmmm. Honeyed chicken. ggrrrgrgrrgrg.
Mmmmmm Cersei (I know how to soften the Iron Duchess or thaw the Ice Queen).
We were talking about things we found appetizing, right?
> - Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children. Is this
> just a cover story for why Jon seems older than he is supposed to be? Let
> the conspiracy theories fly.
No. Jon is exactly the age that he is supposed to be, given Moaning Cat's
testimony as to his need for a wet nurse when she came to Winterfell.
> - Benjen says that Jon should father a few bastards before taking the
black
> so he knows what he is giving up. But isn't the Night's Watch vow of
> celibacy meant to prevent them having families that they might value above
> their duty? Is Benjen trying to sabotage Jon or what?
No. Benjen is a man-whore.
> - I've like Tyrion from this very first glimpse we get of him. How about
> you?
No. But then again, I dislike all Targaryens, including Jon. I'm a Sansa
man all the way.
--
I never took the smile away from anybody's face and that's a desperate way
to look for someone who is still a child--Big Country
Trade Surplus
> Trade Surplus wrote:
> >
> > Points for discussion:
> > - Is a two-story horse drawn carriage really possible?
>
> Sure. They were often used by Charlesmagne when transporting the royal
> women of his party around the empire. Need an insane ammount of horses,
> though.
Good to know.
> > - Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses yet she apparently died of a
> > fever. No question, just a point of interest for the central
> > theory/controversy of the book.
>
> Behold:
> puerperal fever
><snip>
> Sounds like something one might contract in an unsterile "bed of blood."
Even better to know. I wonder did GRRM intend this or is it just a happy
coincidence.
> > - Why on earth is Benjen on the wall? What crime did he commit? or shame
did
> > he suffer? or is he just a masochist?
>
> It seemed like something respectable a younger brother might do in light
> of the fact that his older brother has a brood of heirs (at least was
> well on the way to securing the family legacy, anyway). We have no idea
> how young Benjen is, though - did he take the black after Catelyn had
> Bran or what?
>
> It's really no different then a younger son joining the Faith or the
> Citadel - just that they are Northroners, so service on the Wall has
> more primacy to them, I guess.
Could be. OTOH, there is much talk of Bran and Rickon ruling holdfasts in
Robb's name when he becomes Lord of Winterfell. It seems as though that is
the normal and expected duty of a younger sibling. So I would have expected
Benjen to rule a holdfast in Eddard's name. The family line isn't all that
secure after all. Three sons can easily die if war breaks out, as indeed
happened, as far as most of the characters in the book know.
I never really thought of it before but now that I have, I suspect some
secret plot point may lie behind Benjen taking the black.
> > - Benjen says that Jon should father a few bastards before taking the
black
> > so he knows what he is giving up. But isn't the Night's Watch vow of
> > celibacy meant to prevent them having families that they might value
above
> > their duty? Is Benjen trying to sabotage Jon or what?
>
> No, just encouraging him to sow his wild oats before locking up his
> gentitals forever.
The watch has a valid reason for locking up their genitals forever, i.e.
avoiding conflicts between family and duty. Sowing wild oats before joining
is directly contrary to that reason. Why encourage Jon to do something that
will make his service on the wall harder and make him more likely to desert?
Trade.
Matt Wuz Hear
A bastard son of a bastard son isn't likely to cause much problem with
regard to inheritance, but knowing Jon and the Stark honor, he would
want his children cared for by family. He would certainly desert if they
were somehow endangered. Hell, he'd probably desert if they served
mutton for lunch, or if the wind was from the wrong direction.
--
Is it "making love" when the woman has
four penises in her, and then pees on the man?
Is it "making love" when five midgets spank a
man covered in Thousand Island dressing?
- Token, South Park
Richard Boye'
>
> "Richard Boye'" <wa...@webspan.net> wrote ...
> > Trade Surplus wrote:
> > >
> > > Points for discussion:
> > > fever. No question, just a point of interest for the central
> > > theory/controversy of the book.
> >
> > Behold:
> > puerperal fever
> ><snip>
> > Sounds like something one might contract in an unsterile "bed of blood."
>
> Even better to know. I wonder did GRRM intend this or is it just a happy
> coincidence.
I'm sure it was intentional - this fever was what caused a lot of the
deaths in childbirth. It was amazingly and horrifingly common during the
Medieval Period (as well as in antiquity). Jane Seymour, third queen of
Henry VIII died of it. Although, I suspect that in the Seven Kingdoms
its less common, since there exists an order of medically trained
Maesters who know to, I dunno, wash their hands.
> > > - Why on earth is Benjen on the wall? What crime did he commit? or shame
> did
> > > he suffer? or is he just a masochist?
> >
> > It seemed like something respectable a younger brother might do in light
> > of the fact that his older brother has a brood of heirs (at least was
> > well on the way to securing the family legacy, anyway). We have no idea
> > how young Benjen is, though - did he take the black after Catelyn had
> > Bran or what?
> >
> > It's really no different then a younger son joining the Faith or the
> > Citadel - just that they are Northroners, so service on the Wall has
> > more primacy to them, I guess.
>
> Could be. OTOH, there is much talk of Bran and Rickon ruling holdfasts in
> Robb's name when he becomes Lord of Winterfell. It seems as though that is
> the normal and expected duty of a younger sibling. So I would have expected
> Benjen to rule a holdfast in Eddard's name. The family line isn't all that
> secure after all. Three sons can easily die if war breaks out, as indeed
> happened, as far as most of the characters in the book know.
> I never really thought of it before but now that I have, I suspect some
> secret plot point may lie behind Benjen taking the black.
On the other hand, it could also be as common for young sons to file
themselves away into chaste service. I wonder, did Benjen take the black
while both Brandon and Eddard were alive? Then that makes a tad more
sense.
I think you're reading too much into Benjen telling Jon to get laid
before he gives it up forever. He's speaking from the other end of the
vow. No one should give up so much without ever having experienced it
first.
However, I wonder about the lesser holdfasts that the Stark kids are
supposed to hold for Robb - where are they? What are they called? Who
was holding them when Eddard was Lord in Winterfell?
Elio M. Garcia Jr.
> On the other hand, it could also be as common for young sons to file
> themselves away into chaste service. I wonder, did Benjen take the black
> while both Brandon and Eddard were alive? Then that makes a tad more
> sense.
Nope. He went to the Wall after the war was over and Eddard had
returned to Winterfell with a fertile young wife, an heir, and Jon Snow.
I always thought Benjen was turned on to the idea by the black brother
who called for men to join the Watch at the Harrenhal tournament, but
GRRM has suggested there may be a deeper story behind it and we'll learn
about it in a future volume.
> However, I wonder about the lesser holdfasts that the Stark kids are
> supposed to hold for Robb - where are they? What are they called? Who
> was holding them when Eddard was Lord in Winterfell?
Holdfasts aren't really castles. They're probably known by the village
they belong to (i.e. 'Queenscrown's holdfast'). From what we see, many
of them are fairly crude. So ... being boss of one isn't exactly a
glamor position. In fact, it's not even a necessary one -- many
holdfasts appear to be unoccupied by anyone. They're more like fallout
shelters than fortresses.
I'd presume they're spread out over all the lands that are considered
the Stark demense. We know that there's a small one in the hills near
Winterfell.
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called "Trade Surplus"
<trades...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying
the following stuff:
>- Is a two-story horse drawn carriage really possible?
Sure. With a lot of very strong horses out front. And I'd say the top
storey would have to be smaller than the bottom. And good luck trying
to drink a cup of tea.
>- Ned seems afraid of the old Kings of the North and also of the tombs
>waiting for him and his children. Is Ned a wuss or what?
Hee hee. Yeah. He should sleep in that tomb, and get his kids to do
the same, so they get used to it. I have always wondered how many
tombs there are down there. There's lots of guys already dead, and the
future tombs seem to be already dug. And are there older ones further
down, or am I thinking of another part of the story? Anyway, what
happens when the vault is full? Duh, I guess they dig another one.
>- Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses yet she apparently died of a
>fever. No question, just a point of interest for the central
>theory/controversy of the book.
She was surrounded by roses because she liked them. There was blood
either because she was multiple-raped, or she was giving birth. Either
way, I can't recall anybody saying she died of a fever. Maybe that was
just a nice way of saying it.
Janica adds that women (back in those times, but obviously not as much
now) who died in childbirth often didn't die directly because of the
birth, but of something called "child-bed fever" (rough translation
from Finnish). So that could be something adding weight to the Jon
Targaryen theory.
>- On the map, the road from Riverrun to the Eyrie crosses the Trident
>upstream of the Kingsroad. Is this a flaw in the map or are there multiple
>fords over the Trident in this area?
Hmm. Don't know. There must be. There's one part where the Twins are
the only feasible crossing. But not necessarily there.
>- There's a nice reference here that I never caught before in the discussion
>of Robert Arryn's fostering where Ned talks of wounds that never really
>heal. I believe he must be talking about the fight he and Robert had over
>Rhaegar's children. Is there anything else it could be?
It could also be a reference to Littlefinger. Jon Arryn and Ned stood
together and wed the Tully sisters, and Littlefinger loved Catelyn and
Lysa loved Littlefinger.
>- When Robert offers Ned the Handship he says that he needs someone to tell
>him the truth, not just to flatter him with lies. It's ironic that it is
>Ned's truthtelling that creates friction between them.
But Robert always settles down and eventually agrees with what Ned is
saying. I like their relationship. "You're too fat for your armour."
Of course, it was doomed from the start. The portents saw to that, and
Ned is just too straight and honest. His talent for survival in court
is something he handed down to Sansa, I think.
>Gore-o-meter
>Several deaths are mentioned and one war but all several years past. I give
>this chapter one flesh gobbet out of five.
Fair call.
>- At the start of the chapter Jon says that this time he is glad that he is
>a bastard but then goes on to get roaring drunk. Does anyone think that Jon
>is really happy to be a bastard at this time?
Nope. He's an angsty teen saying, "I'm glad, you hear me? Glad glad
glad glad GLAD!"
>- Tyrion is not just a dwarf, he's also deformed. Does anyone know if this
>is a genuine medical problem or just something GRRM invented?
It's surely a genuine genetic thing. Tywin Lannister married his
cousin, and the Lannisters doubtless have numerous little backwaters
in their gene pool. Tyrion was inevitable.
>- Why on earth is Benjen on the wall? What crime did he commit? or shame did
>he suffer? or is he just a masochist?
Is Benjen an older brother? I always assumed he was. Maybe he took the
Black to avoid some sort of trouble with the Targaryens. Maybe he was
the eldest son and heir, and he stood aside so Brandon and Eddard
could deal with the dragon.
>- Mmmmmm. Honeyed chicken. ggrrrgrgrrgrg.
Agreed. If there's one thing Martin does well, it's a menu.
Often, he involves death.
>- Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children. Is this
>just a cover story for why Jon seems older than he is supposed to be? Let
>the conspiracy theories fly.
I think that's just a way of saying bastards get the shitty end of the
stick a great deal, and nothing teaches you how to pick up a stick
better than having shit on your smock half the days of the week.
>- Benjen says that Jon should father a few bastards before taking the black
>so he knows what he is giving up. But isn't the Night's Watch vow of
>celibacy meant to prevent them having families that they might value above
>their duty? Is Benjen trying to sabotage Jon or what?
Pff. Once he takes the Black, his family - legitimate or not - becomes
irrelevant. Surely this is just Benjen's way of saying, "get laid,
because you can't claim to be celibate with a straight face until you
have."
>- I've like Tyrion from this very first glimpse we get of him. How about
>you?
Yep. And Jon treats him pretty damn shabbily. At least part of the
time, he's drunk and surly, so that's something of an excuse.
>Gore-o-meter:
>Nothing gory at all. Zero flesh gobbets for this chapter.
Ah well. Ever onwards.
C&J
--
If the Borg Queen handed her title on to her daughter,
would resistance be feudal?
- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called Richard Boye' <wa...@webspan.net>,
and they made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>> - Why on earth is Benjen on the wall? What crime did he commit? or shame did
>> he suffer? or is he just a masochist?
>
>It seemed like something respectable a younger brother might do in light
>of the fact that his older brother has a brood of heirs (at least was
>well on the way to securing the family legacy, anyway). We have no idea
>how young Benjen is, though - did he take the black after Catelyn had
>Bran or what?
Funny, we always assumed he was an older brother. But the younger
brother would certainly make more sense. It'd be the thing for him to
do, and his sense of duty as a Stark would encourage him to do it.
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called "mgraves" <mgr...@midammetal.com>,
and they made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>> - Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses yet she apparently died of a
>> fever. No question, just a point of interest for the central
>> theory/controversy of the book.
>
>Not sure yet about the fever, but roses make me think of Tyrells. You can
>see the mountains of Dorne from the vicinity of Highgarden, can't you?
Rhaegar's wife was Dornish. Maybe she killed Lyanna and scattered
flowers around out of furious bitter insane jealousy somehow.
But please don't bring the Tyrells into this.
Richard Boye'
>
> Richard Boye' wrote:
[...]
> > However, I wonder about the lesser holdfasts that the Stark kids are
> > supposed to hold for Robb - where are they? What are they called? Who
> > was holding them when Eddard was Lord in Winterfell?
>
> Holdfasts aren't really castles. They're probably known by the village
> they belong to (i.e. 'Queenscrown's holdfast'). From what we see, many
> of them are fairly crude. So ... being boss of one isn't exactly a
> glamor position. In fact, it's not even a necessary one -- many
> holdfasts appear to be unoccupied by anyone. They're more like fallout
> shelters than fortresses.
>
> I'd presume they're spread out over all the lands that are considered
> the Stark demense. We know that there's a small one in the hills near
> Winterfell.
Okay. However, the Stark demesne is so unusually vast that I figured
there might be lesser castles tucked here and there. One the reasons for
the presence of castles is a) so that the locals can shelter inside them
(although) the lords of the castle generally pooh-pooh that) and b) and
this is the real reason, so that the lords of the castle can project
military force out of them.
With the North so large, and Winterfell is kinda remote - it would make
sense for other holds to be here and there. I always assumed that's what
happened with the Karstarks.
Elio M. Garcia Jr.
> Elio M. Garcia Jr. wrote:
>
>>Richard Boye' wrote:
>
>
> [...]
>
>
>>>However, I wonder about the lesser holdfasts that the Stark kids are
>>>supposed to hold for Robb - where are they? What are they called? Who
>>>was holding them when Eddard was Lord in Winterfell?
>>
>> Holdfasts aren't really castles. They're probably known by the village
>>they belong to (i.e. 'Queenscrown's holdfast'). From what we see, many
>>of them are fairly crude. So ... being boss of one isn't exactly a
>>glamor position. In fact, it's not even a necessary one -- many
>>holdfasts appear to be unoccupied by anyone. They're more like fallout
>>shelters than fortresses.
>>
>> I'd presume they're spread out over all the lands that are considered
>>the Stark demense. We know that there's a small one in the hills near
>>Winterfell.
>
>
> Okay. However, the Stark demesne is so unusually vast that I figured
> there might be lesser castles tucked here and there. One the reasons for
> the presence of castles is a) so that the locals can shelter inside them
> (although) the lords of the castle generally pooh-pooh that) and b) and
> this is the real reason, so that the lords of the castle can project
> military force out of them.
There are other lords quite closely placed to Winterfell. For example,
the Cerwyns have their castle a half day's ride from Winterfell. I
suspect anything that can really be called a castle has a lord already
in place.
Holdfasts and castles seem to be considered distinct things. Holdfasts
are bunkers to weather out conflict, while castles serve more functions
than the purely defensive (centers of administration, permanent
dwellings, and all that). I presume the notion was that Bran would hold
a non-inheritable position (because splitting up lands among heirs on a
permanent basis is rare in Westeros) as a sort of deputy of Robb,
administrating a significant holdfast and the outlying regions that
would depend on it in times of need.
Matt Wuz Hear
>
> Once upon a time - for example, Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:23:06 GMT - there
> was this guy, or something, called Richard Boye' <wa...@webspan.net>,
> and they made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>
> >> - Why on earth is Benjen on the wall? What crime did he commit? or shame did
> >> he suffer? or is he just a masochist?
> >
> >It seemed like something respectable a younger brother might do in light
> >of the fact that his older brother has a brood of heirs (at least was
> >well on the way to securing the family legacy, anyway). We have no idea
> >how young Benjen is, though - did he take the black after Catelyn had
> >Bran or what?
>
> Funny, we always assumed he was an older brother. But the younger
> brother would certainly make more sense. It'd be the thing for him to
> do, and his sense of duty as a Stark would encourage him to do it.
Benjen was at the Harrenhall tourney - the wild wolf, the quiet wolf,
the she-wolf, and "the pup who was the youngest of the four."
He had an elder brother who would become lord of Winterfell, a second
brother who would be heir after that and would have a holdfast of his
own (which remains to be named...) and a sister who would require lands
as a dowry, or possibly have her husband granted a holdfast. Without
knowing the future, there doesn't seem like much opportunity for glory
for a fourth child.
Still seems silly for him to join the watch at all. His father and
Brandon were dispatched quite rapidly, and I'd like to know if he had
yet joined the watch when Lyanna died. He could see his family being
decimated and still take the Black? It must have been during peaceful
times after the tourney but before the rebellion.
Matt Wuz Hear
>
> Once upon a time - for example, Sat, 21 Feb 2004 06:24:44 GMT - there
> was this guy, or something, called "mgraves" <mgr...@midammetal.com>,
> and they made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>
> >> - Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses yet she apparently died of a
> >> fever. No question, just a point of interest for the central
> >> theory/controversy of the book.
> >
> >Not sure yet about the fever, but roses make me think of Tyrells. You can
> >see the mountains of Dorne from the vicinity of Highgarden, can't you?
>
> Rhaegar's wife was Dornish. Maybe she killed Lyanna and scattered
> flowers around out of furious bitter insane jealousy somehow.
>
> But please don't bring the Tyrells into this.
Lyanna had an affair with Jaqen.
Matt Wuz Hear
Refering back to my one reference for the week, the Harrenhall tourney,
Ned takes to Howland Reed quite rapidly, offering him his tent after
being beaten by the squires. He had likely known him before that, but
Ned did seem the type to make a good friend. Though I wouldn't let him
run a lemonade stand, much less a kingdom.
> >- At the start of the chapter Jon says that this time he is glad that he is
> >a bastard but then goes on to get roaring drunk. Does anyone think that Jon
> >is really happy to be a bastard at this time?
>
> Nope. He's an angsty teen saying, "I'm glad, you hear me? Glad glad
> glad glad GLAD!"
I wonder if he's glad?
> >- Tyrion is not just a dwarf, he's also deformed. Does anyone know if this
> >is a genuine medical problem or just something GRRM invented?
>
> It's surely a genuine genetic thing. Tywin Lannister married his
> cousin, and the Lannisters doubtless have numerous little backwaters
> in their gene pool. Tyrion was inevitable.
And he's the smartest one of the lot. Tywin knows he'd be outclassed but
would never admit it, so he sets Tyrion off on unrewarding yet important
tasks that any other Lannister would botch.
> >- Why on earth is Benjen on the wall? What crime did he commit? or shame did
> >he suffer? or is he just a masochist?
>
> Is Benjen an older brother? I always assumed he was. Maybe he took the
> Black to avoid some sort of trouble with the Targaryens. Maybe he was
> the eldest son and heir, and he stood aside so Brandon and Eddard
> could deal with the dragon.
After his father and eldest brother were killed, the Wall might have
seemed a nice safe place.
Matt Wuz Hear
Was that the only aspiration for Bran? It seems like a poor existence
for any male beyond second in line, and for all males after the first
heir is born. The women may have had it slightly better in that they
could marry even into a lesser house, but likely one with prestige and
power and accommodations well beyond a small holdfast.
Robb gets Winterfell, Bran gets Dungfort, Sansa gets Kings Landing, Arya
would end up in a Southron house or with one of the North's bannermen,
and Rickon gets the Wall. Sounds fair to me.
Paul Bartel
respec...@hotmail.com says...
> "Elio M. Garcia Jr." wrote:
> >
> > Richard Boye' wrote:
> > > Elio M. Garcia Jr. wrote:
> > >
> > >>Richard Boye' wrote:
> > >
> > >
[...}
> >
> > are bunkers to weather out conflict, while castles serve more functions
> > than the purely defensive (centers of administration, permanent
> > dwellings, and all that). I presume the notion was that Bran would hold
> > a non-inheritable position (because splitting up lands among heirs on a
> > permanent basis is rare in Westeros) as a sort of deputy of Robb,
> > administrating a significant holdfast and the outlying regions that
> > would depend on it in times of need.
>
> Was that the only aspiration for Bran? It seems like a poor existence
> for any male beyond second in line, and for all males after the first
> heir is born. The women may have had it slightly better in that they
> could marry even into a lesser house, but likely one with prestige and
> power and accommodations well beyond a small holdfast.
> Robb gets Winterfell, Bran gets Dungfort, Sansa gets Kings Landing, Arya
> would end up in a Southron house or with one of the North's bannermen,
> and Rickon gets the Wall. Sounds fair to me.
I seem to recall that the option of become a Maester was also
presented to Bran at one point. Still not great. And, of
course, Bran longed to become a knight.
It does show the problem with not being the heir to the house,
whether male or female. You become expendable for whatever
political cause is convienent - marriage to a potential ally or
service to the Lord and Realm in a variety of guises. Maybe
Cersei would stop bitching if she was told her choice was
marriage or the Wall...
--
Paul Bartel
Gentleman of the Perverse
Trade Surplus
> [Trade Surplus wrote]
> > - Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses yet she apparently died of a
> > fever. No question, just a point of interest for the central
> > theory/controversy of the book.
>
> Not sure yet about the fever, but roses make me think of Tyrells. You can
> see the mountains of Dorne from the vicinity of Highgarden, can't you?
I hadn't thought of that. I presumed that the roses were a reference to the
crown of roses that Rhaegar gave Lyanna at Harrenhal but I could be wrong.
> > - On the map, the road from Riverrun to the Eyrie crosses the Trident
> > upstream of the Kingsroad. Is this a flaw in the map or are there
multiple
> > fords over the Trident in this area?
>
> The Trident is probably a large ford. Thus, the Eyrie and King's roads
> might each tie into the river bed to meet at a single ideal crossing
point.
That's what I thought would have been the case but it seems not. The Eyrie
road and the Kingsroad seem to cross the Trident at different points.
Since I first posted this I've also realised that the crossroads where
Tyrion meets his father after leaving the Vale is probably where the Eyrie
road crosses the Kingsroad. So the map is right and there are two fords, at
least.
> > - There's a nice reference here that I never caught before in the
discussion
> > of Robert Arryn's fostering where Ned talks of wounds that never really
> > heal. I believe he must be talking about the fight he and Robert had
over
> > Rhaegar's children. Is there anything else it could be?
>
> I think you are somewhat correct, but wrong nonetheless. Ned believes
that
> Tywin is a pedocidal maniac (just coined it myself, thank you very much)
and
> thinks that no children are safe with him. His problems with Robert
aside,
> Ned cannot accept the Lannisters as a House worthy of title given what he
> has witnessed.
No question that Ned fears for young Arryn's life if fostered to a pedocidal
maniac like Tywin (I like that term). My question was more around what is
the old wound that Ned doesn't want to open up in his conversation with
Robert.
Trade.
Elio M. Garcia Jr.
> "Elio M. Garcia Jr." wrote:
>> Holdfasts and castles seem to be considered distinct things. Holdfasts
>>are bunkers to weather out conflict, while castles serve more functions
>>than the purely defensive (centers of administration, permanent
>>dwellings, and all that). I presume the notion was that Bran would hold
>>a non-inheritable position (because splitting up lands among heirs on a
>>permanent basis is rare in Westeros) as a sort of deputy of Robb,
>>administrating a significant holdfast and the outlying regions that
>>would depend on it in times of need.
>
>
> Was that the only aspiration for Bran?
He could become a priest, or help to raise great castles, sail ships,
be a royal councillor, etc., is what Eddard indicates to Arya when they
talk about it at one point. Bran's options aren't all that limited.
Being one of Robb's bannermen isn't a bad position -- look at Kevan
Lannister, who serves at Tywin's right hand.
Beyond that, Bran could always be married off to an heiress. That's not
unusual at all. So, all in all, even a younger son of a Great House has
the possibility of becoming important in the grand scheme of things, and
probably has more ways of doing that than your average woman does.
Kalyahna
news:mfah30l7hbtrncgih...@4ax.com...
> Once upon a time - for example, Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:11:36 GMT - there
> was this guy, or something, called "Trade Surplus"
> <trades...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying
> the following stuff:
> >fever. No question, just a point of interest for the central
> >theory/controversy of the book.
>
> She was surrounded by roses because she liked them. There was blood
> either because she was multiple-raped, or she was giving birth. Either
> way, I can't recall anybody saying she died of a fever. Maybe that was
> just a nice way of saying it.
>
> Janica adds that women (back in those times, but obviously not as much
> now) who died in childbirth often didn't die directly because of the
> birth, but of something called "child-bed fever" (rough translation
> from Finnish). So that could be something adding weight to the Jon
> Targaryen theory.
The birthing bed is often enough referred to as the 'bloody bed.' The
chances of Lyanna being gang-raped is pretty slim, what with the old school
Kingsguard watching the tower.
> >- Why on earth is Benjen on the wall? What crime did he commit? or shame
did
> >he suffer? or is he just a masochist?
>
> Is Benjen an older brother? I always assumed he was. Maybe he took the
> Black to avoid some sort of trouble with the Targaryens. Maybe he was
> the eldest son and heir, and he stood aside so Brandon and Eddard
> could deal with the dragon.
The backs of the books tend to list everybody pretty specifically, down to
age for living children. CoK lists Benjen as the younger sibling of Ned and
Brandon.
Matt Wuz Hear
>
> Matt Wuz Hear wrote:
> > "Elio M. Garcia Jr." wrote:
>
> >> Holdfasts and castles seem to be considered distinct things. Holdfasts
> >>are bunkers to weather out conflict, while castles serve more functions
> >>than the purely defensive (centers of administration, permanent
> >>dwellings, and all that). I presume the notion was that Bran would hold
> >>a non-inheritable position (because splitting up lands among heirs on a
> >>permanent basis is rare in Westeros) as a sort of deputy of Robb,
> >>administrating a significant holdfast and the outlying regions that
> >>would depend on it in times of need.
> >
> >
> > Was that the only aspiration for Bran?
>
> He could become a priest, or help to raise great castles, sail ships,
> be a royal councillor, etc., is what Eddard indicates to Arya when they
> talk about it at one point. Bran's options aren't all that limited.
> Being one of Robb's bannermen isn't a bad position -- look at Kevan
> Lannister, who serves at Tywin's right hand.
Bran does have unusual talents, but the way things have been going in
the north, Robb would be best served giving him the Dick Cheney
treatment (secure location, not defibrilation). All hypothetical
now...but interesting.
> Beyond that, Bran could always be married off to an heiress. That's not
> unusual at all. So, all in all, even a younger son of a Great House has
> the possibility of becoming important in the grand scheme of things, and
That would create a good alliance, but not as important with 2
daugthers. And again, Bran would be best served staying at Robb's side
and exerting influence on the local bannermen, or serving as an envoy to
court.
> probably has more ways of doing that than your average woman does.
Everybody gets a raw deal, even if they survive.
Matt Wuz Hear
That's the way I was heading when I first composed my message, but I
thought it highly unlikely Ned would allow that. Three males heirs might
just be enough without sending one to Oldtown or another to the wall.
> It does show the problem with not being the heir to the house,
> whether male or female. You become expendable for whatever
> political cause is convienent - marriage to a potential ally or
> service to the Lord and Realm in a variety of guises. Maybe
> Cersei would stop bitching if she was told her choice was
> marriage or the Wall...
I think Robert might have taken the Black if given a similar choice.
Matt Wuz Hear
>
> The birthing bed is often enough referred to as the 'bloody bed.' The
> chances of Lyanna being gang-raped is pretty slim, what with the old school
> Kingsguard watching the tower.
And the chances of someone bringing roses to a gang-rape are even
slimmer.
> >- Why on earth is Benjen on the wall? What crime did he commit? or shame
> did
> > >he suffer? or is he just a masochist?
> >
> > Is Benjen an older brother? I always assumed he was. Maybe he took the
> > Black to avoid some sort of trouble with the Targaryens. Maybe he was
> > the eldest son and heir, and he stood aside so Brandon and Eddard
> > could deal with the dragon.
>
> The backs of the books tend to list everybody pretty specifically, down to
> age for living children. CoK lists Benjen as the younger sibling of Ned and
> Brandon.
His reasons and timing for going to the Wall still intrigue me.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Matt Wuz Hear
<respec...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by
saying the following stuff:
>> Once upon a time - for example, Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:23:06 GMT - there
>> was this guy, or something, called Richard Boye' <wa...@webspan.net>,
>> and they made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>>
>> >> - Why on earth is Benjen on the wall? What crime did he commit? or shame did
>> >> he suffer? or is he just a masochist?
>> >
>> >It seemed like something respectable a younger brother might do in light
>> >of the fact that his older brother has a brood of heirs (at least was
>> >well on the way to securing the family legacy, anyway). We have no idea
>> >how young Benjen is, though - did he take the black after Catelyn had
>> >Bran or what?
>>
>> Funny, we always assumed he was an older brother. But the younger
>> brother would certainly make more sense. It'd be the thing for him to
>> do, and his sense of duty as a Stark would encourage him to do it.
>
>Benjen was at the Harrenhall tourney - the wild wolf, the quiet wolf,
>the she-wolf, and "the pup who was the youngest of the four."
Ah.
I have a blind spot for evidence given at tourneys. Hence my utter
disregard for Rhaegar's something-or-other of flowers to some woman.
*waves hand indistinctly*
>He had an elder brother who would become lord of Winterfell, a second
>brother who would be heir after that and would have a holdfast of his
>own (which remains to be named...) and a sister who would require lands
>as a dowry, or possibly have her husband granted a holdfast. Without
>knowing the future, there doesn't seem like much opportunity for glory
>for a fourth child.
Well I guess it would be the thing for a Stark to do.
>Still seems silly for him to join the watch at all. His father and
>Brandon were dispatched quite rapidly, and I'd like to know if he had
>yet joined the watch when Lyanna died. He could see his family being
>decimated and still take the Black? It must have been during peaceful
>times after the tourney but before the rebellion.
Yep, it was surely before things went bad. But he stuck to it once he
was there and sworn in.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Matt Wuz Hear
<respec...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by
saying the following stuff:
>> >> - Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses yet she apparently died of a
>> >> fever. No question, just a point of interest for the central
>> >> theory/controversy of the book.
>> >
>> >Not sure yet about the fever, but roses make me think of Tyrells. You can
>> >see the mountains of Dorne from the vicinity of Highgarden, can't you?
>>
>> Rhaegar's wife was Dornish. Maybe she killed Lyanna and scattered
>> flowers around out of furious bitter insane jealousy somehow.
>>
>> But please don't bring the Tyrells into this.
>
>Lyanna had an affair with Jaqen.
And then they were rescued by, oh, let's say ... Moe.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Matt Wuz Hear
<respec...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by
saying the following stuff:
>> >- When Robert offers Ned the Handship he says that he needs someone to tell
>> >him the truth, not just to flatter him with lies. It's ironic that it is
>> >Ned's truthtelling that creates friction between them.
>>
>> But Robert always settles down and eventually agrees with what Ned is
>> saying. I like their relationship. "You're too fat for your armour."
>
>Refering back to my one reference for the week, the Harrenhall tourney,
>Ned takes to Howland Reed quite rapidly, offering him his tent after
>being beaten by the squires. He had likely known him before that, but
>Ned did seem the type to make a good friend. Though I wouldn't let him
>run a lemonade stand, much less a kingdom.
Hee hee - at the risk of making yet another Simpsons reference and
make it look as though I can't converse with you in any other way,
your choice of words does make me think of Ned Flanders's Leftorium.
Ned really shouldn't be put in charge of things which require guile.
>> >- At the start of the chapter Jon says that this time he is glad that he is
>> >a bastard but then goes on to get roaring drunk. Does anyone think that Jon
>> >is really happy to be a bastard at this time?
>>
>> Nope. He's an angsty teen saying, "I'm glad, you hear me? Glad glad
>> glad glad GLAD!"
>
>I wonder if he's glad?
If I do converse with you through quotes and paraphrases from
television, it's your own stupid fault.
>> It's surely a genuine genetic thing. Tywin Lannister married his
>> cousin, and the Lannisters doubtless have numerous little backwaters
>> in their gene pool. Tyrion was inevitable.
>
>And he's the smartest one of the lot. Tywin knows he'd be outclassed but
>would never admit it, so he sets Tyrion off on unrewarding yet important
>tasks that any other Lannister would botch.
Exactly. And in the faint hope that he might get "accidentally"
killed. He'd have to be avenged, of course, but that wouldn't cancel
out the fact that he was dead, and good riddance.
I really think Tywin should have been left to stew in the fact that
the kid he hated most was the smart and charismatic and truly decent
one, while his perfect Aryans were boffing each other and breaking
their oaths as fast as they could take a breath. But his demise was
truly neat.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called "Kalyahna"
<kehl...@charter.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying
the following stuff:
>> She was surrounded by roses because she liked them. There was blood
>> either because she was multiple-raped, or she was giving birth. Either
>> way, I can't recall anybody saying she died of a fever. Maybe that was
>> just a nice way of saying it.
>>
>> Janica adds that women (back in those times, but obviously not as much
>> now) who died in childbirth often didn't die directly because of the
>> birth, but of something called "child-bed fever" (rough translation
>> from Finnish). So that could be something adding weight to the Jon
>> Targaryen theory.
>
>The birthing bed is often enough referred to as the 'bloody bed.' The
>chances of Lyanna being gang-raped is pretty slim,
Raped multiple times by Rhaegar, as Robert always claimed. Not
gang-raped.
>what with the old school
>Kingsguard watching the tower.
But I wouldn't go putting too much faith in the Kingsguard. Ser
Barristan Selmy was just about the only one worth the paper he was
printed on (or would have been, if he were an article of printed ...
oh you know what I mean), the rest ... well shit. Jaime. I'd leave him
looking after my family.
Yes, I know he was actually looking after the King at the time (and
wasn't that lucky?), but the other guys at the Tower of Joy, old
school or not, weren't exactly going to stop the Targaryens from
having some family fun with Lyanna if they wanted to.
>> Is Benjen an older brother? I always assumed he was. Maybe he took the
>> Black to avoid some sort of trouble with the Targaryens. Maybe he was
>> the eldest son and heir, and he stood aside so Brandon and Eddard
>> could deal with the dragon.
>
>The backs of the books tend to list everybody pretty specifically, down to
>age for living children. CoK lists Benjen as the younger sibling of Ned and
>Brandon.
Spoilers! We haven't read to the back of the book yet.
Kidding. Thanks for clearing up a misconception. I never really
thought about Benjen before.
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
> Once upon a time - for example, Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:15:10 -0500 -
> there was this guy, or something, called Matt Wuz Hear
>
> >brother who would be heir after that and would have a holdfast of his
> >own (which remains to be named...) and a sister who would require lands
> >as a dowry, or possibly have her husband granted a holdfast. Without
> >knowing the future, there doesn't seem like much opportunity for glory
> >for a fourth child.
>
> Well I guess it would be the thing for a Stark to do.
>
> >Still seems silly for him to join the watch at all. His father and
> >Brandon were dispatched quite rapidly, and I'd like to know if he had
> >yet joined the watch when Lyanna died. He could see his family being
> >decimated and still take the Black? It must have been during peaceful
> >times after the tourney but before the rebellion.
>
> Yep, it was surely before things went bad. But he stuck to it once he
> was there and sworn in.
>
Rob was dead? Did he think that a bastard, or a younger man, would be more
pliable.
BTW, is it me, or does Stannis seem to have a soft spot for bastards, though
he would never thinking of fathering any of his own?
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
> Once upon a time - for example, Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:28:57 -0500 -
> there was this guy, or something, called Matt Wuz Hear
> <respec...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by
> saying the following stuff:
>
> make it look as though I can't converse with you in any other way,
> your choice of words does make me think of Ned Flanders's Leftorium.
> Ned really shouldn't be put in charge of things which require guile.
>
find 'em on the Web.
> Exactly. And in the faint hope that he might get "accidentally"
> killed. He'd have to be avenged, of course, but that wouldn't cancel
> out the fact that he was dead, and good riddance.
>
The best way for the Lanisters to have gotten anything done would have been
to make Tyrion their spymaster or the equivalent. The dwarf would have made
short work, purdon the pan, of Littlefinger (again, pardun the pon) and
could have unmanned the eunuch. With those two gone, there is no war and
Joffrey rules without opposition -- until Tyrion kills him, because Joff is
nutter.
> I really think Tywin should have been left to stew in the fact that
> the kid he hated most was the smart and charismatic and truly decent
> one, while his perfect Aryans were boffing each other and breaking
> their oaths as fast as they could take a breath. But his demise was
> truly neat.
>
My second favorite scene in the whole series, as was Tyrion comment to
himself about the valuable metal content of his father's feces.
mgraves
> Why didn't Stannis seek out Benjen to take over the Great White North once
> Rob was dead? Did he think that a bastard, or a younger man, would be more
> pliable.
Stannis does not have our imagination. He undoubtedly believes that Bejen
is dead.
> BTW, is it me, or does Stannis seem to have a soft spot for bastards,
though
> he would never thinking of fathering any of his own?
I don't think that Stannis has any soft spots. He just has a very
meritocratic form of governance and tends not to concern himself with issues
of station or birth when it comes to using people to achieve his goals.
Look at Daavos as another example of his attitude about people.
--
Well, we didn't expect you to sing along with that last part, since it was
in French-- Trout Fishing in America
Matt Wuz Hear
You should! He's the bastard son of Mance Reindeer and Cersei.
Matt Wuz Hear
>
> "Chucky & Janica" <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote in message
> news:h19k30tdo7ihl87cr...@4ax.com...
> > Once upon a time - for example, Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:28:57 -0500 -
> > there was this guy, or something, called Matt Wuz Hear
> > <respec...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by
> > saying the following stuff:
> >
> > Hee hee - at the risk of making yet another Simpsons reference and
> > make it look as though I can't converse with you in any other way,
> > your choice of words does make me think of Ned Flanders's Leftorium.
> > Ned really shouldn't be put in charge of things which require guile.
> >
> BTW, I own a Springfield Nuclear Power Plant entry badge. I'm sure you could
> find 'em on the Web.
We're dorks, not dweebs....
> > Exactly. And in the faint hope that he might get "accidentally"
> > killed. He'd have to be avenged, of course, but that wouldn't cancel
> > out the fact that he was dead, and good riddance.
> >
> The best way for the Lanisters to have gotten anything done would have been
> to make Tyrion their spymaster or the equivalent. The dwarf would have made
> short work, purdon the pan, of Littlefinger (again, pardun the pon) and
> could have unmanned the eunuch. With those two gone, there is no war and
> Joffrey rules without opposition -- until Tyrion kills him, because Joff is
> nutter.
Even knowing that Joff dies is not enough to make him tolerable. He
doesn't get what he deserves.
Matt Wuz Hear
>
> > Why didn't Stannis seek out Benjen to take over the Great White North once
> > Rob was dead? Did he think that a bastard, or a younger man, would be more
> > pliable.
>
> Stannis does not have our imagination. He undoubtedly believes that Bejen
> is dead.
>
> > BTW, is it me, or does Stannis seem to have a soft spot for bastards,
> though
> > he would never thinking of fathering any of his own?
>
> I don't think that Stannis has any soft spots. He just has a very
> meritocratic form of governance and tends not to concern himself with issues
> of station or birth when it comes to using people to achieve his goals.
> Look at Daavos as another example of his attitude about people.
I wouldn't call it meritocratic. He's defending bastards because it's
the right thing to do. The Storm boy has a better claim to the throne
than any of Cersei's get. The boy hasn't proved himself worthy of much,
just being Robert's eldest child is enough for Stannis. He might not
have a soft spot for bastards, but he might believe in the promise of
the lineage, each man getting his due and knowing his place.
As for Davos, Stannis would never have noticed him if he didn't run the
blockade.
mgraves
"Matt Wuz Hear" <respec...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:403A82AF...@hotmail.com...
> mgraves wrote:
> >
> > > Why didn't Stannis seek out Benjen to take over the Great White North
once
> > > Rob was dead? Did he think that a bastard, or a younger man, would be
more
> > > pliable.
> >
> > Stannis does not have our imagination. He undoubtedly believes that
Bejen
> > is dead.
> >
> > > BTW, is it me, or does Stannis seem to have a soft spot for bastards,
> > though
> > > he would never thinking of fathering any of his own?
> >
> > I don't think that Stannis has any soft spots. He just has a very
> > meritocratic form of governance and tends not to concern himself with
issues
> > of station or birth when it comes to using people to achieve his goals.
> > Look at Daavos as another example of his attitude about people.
>
> I wouldn't call it meritocratic. He's defending bastards because it's
> the right thing to do. The Storm boy has a better claim to the throne
> than any of Cersei's get. The boy hasn't proved himself worthy of much,
> just being Robert's eldest child is enough for Stannis. He might not
> have a soft spot for bastards, but he might believe in the promise of
> the lineage, each man getting his due and knowing his place.
Um? He decides to kill Edric to make dragon-nip. The only part of the
bastard that he wants is his blood. Like Chucky, Edric is just a tool.
> As for Davos, Stannis would never have noticed him if he didn't run the
> blockade.
Are you saying that it can't be a meritocracy because social mobility is
based on talent and ability?
*stick hand down pants and pulls definition out of own ass*
meritocracy - the belief that leaders should be chosen for their superior
abilities and not because of their wealth or birth
--
I can write better than anybody who can write faster,
and I can write faster than anybody
who can write better.--A. J. Liebling
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
> rpi...@nyc.rr.com wrote:
> >
> > "Chucky & Janica" <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote in message
> > news:h19k30tdo7ihl87cr...@4ax.com...
> > > Once upon a time - for example, Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:28:57 -0500 -
> > > there was this guy, or something, called Matt Wuz Hear
> > > <respec...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by
> > > saying the following stuff:
> > >
> > > Hee hee - at the risk of making yet another Simpsons reference and
> > > make it look as though I can't converse with you in any other way,
> > > your choice of words does make me think of Ned Flanders's Leftorium.
> > > Ned really shouldn't be put in charge of things which require guile.
> > >
> > BTW, I own a Springfield Nuclear Power Plant entry badge. I'm sure you
could
> > find 'em on the Web.
>
> We're dorks, not dweebs....
>
assumed. [Later that day he left the closet and turned dweeb...]
Matt Wuz Hear
>
> > I wouldn't call it meritocratic. He's defending bastards because it's
> > the right thing to do. The Storm boy has a better claim to the throne
> > than any of Cersei's get. The boy hasn't proved himself worthy of much,
> > just being Robert's eldest child is enough for Stannis. He might not
> > have a soft spot for bastards, but he might believe in the promise of
> > the lineage, each man getting his due and knowing his place.
>
> Um? He decides to kill Edric to make dragon-nip. The only part of the
> bastard that he wants is his blood.
Given. But the boy was with being raised by Stannis in the first place,
because he owed it to Robert. Call it a misunderstanding of enthusiasm
that he tried to kill him. Stannis isn't one to feel a strong familial
loyalty, but rigid duty he knows all too well.
That still doesn't explain his fondness (or whatever Stannis feels in
his heart shaped organ that pumps blood) for Jon.
> Like Chucky, Edric is just a tool.
Uh-oh uh-oh uh-oh, here comes the hammer.
> > As for Davos, Stannis would never have noticed him if he didn't run the
> > blockade.
>
> Are you saying that it can't be a meritocracy because social mobility is
> based on talent and ability?
>
> *stick hand down pants and pulls definition out of own ass*
>
> meritocracy - the belief that leaders should be chosen for their superior
> abilities and not because of their wealth or birth
Stannis should have invested Davos in King's Landing...
What I meant was that had Davos been a loyal, hardworking, ingenious,
clever sea captain, dedicated to his lord, with 20 years of solid,
arduous service, never denying his lordship's requests, and often going
above the call of duty. If he didn't run the blockade, and pull Stannis'
ass out of the fire, he would have gone unrewarded as a commoner who
knew his job, and his place.
What of the lords and knights who stood with Stannis on Dragonstone?
Were they exceptionally rewarded? Probably not, because it was expected
of them. Seems to me that anything short of exceptional wouldn't attract
Stannis' attention. He expects loyalty and duty to be done, no questions
asked. There is a special hell for those that appear disloyal, though.
Paul Bartel
respec...@hotmail.com says...
> mgraves wrote:
> >
> > > I wouldn't call it meritocratic. He's defending bastards because it's
> > > the right thing to do. The Storm boy has a better claim to the throne
> > > than any of Cersei's get. The boy hasn't proved himself worthy of much,
> > > just being Robert's eldest child is enough for Stannis. He might not
> > > have a soft spot for bastards, but he might believe in the promise of
> > > the lineage, each man getting his due and knowing his place.
> >
> > Um? He decides to kill Edric to make dragon-nip. The only part of the
> > bastard that he wants is his blood.
>
> Given. But the boy was with being raised by Stannis in the first place,
> because he owed it to Robert. Call it a misunderstanding of enthusiasm
> that he tried to kill him. Stannis isn't one to feel a strong familial
> loyalty, but rigid duty he knows all too well.
>
> That still doesn't explain his fondness (or whatever Stannis feels in
> his heart shaped organ that pumps blood) for Jon.
>
by Stannis. In fact, I recall Stannis very much treating Jon as
a means to an end; legitimize the bastard so the North gets under
control and can help Stannis in his war. Of course, my copy of
ASoS is out on loan at the moment, so I can't check to see if my
memory is faulty.
Which is similar to how he treated the Watch - I'll lock you in a
room to sort yourselves out so you can support me in my war.
Granted, their wars seem to be the same at the moment, but I
wonder what the ramifications might be in the War for Succession.
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
news:MPG.1aa472ad3...@news.telus.net...
> by Stannis. In fact, I recall Stannis very much treating Jon as
> a means to an end; legitimize the bastard so the North gets under
> control and can help Stannis in his war. Of course, my copy of
> ASoS is out on loan at the moment, so I can't check to see if my
> memory is faulty.
>
Castle Black? Was it meant as some kind of counterpoint to the Grejoys?
> Which is similar to how he treated the Watch - I'll lock you in a
> room to sort yourselves out so you can support me in my war.
> Granted, their wars seem to be the same at the moment, but I
> wonder what the ramifications might be in the War for Succession.
>
The Succession is, for all concerned, over. Almost everyone seems to accept
Joff's baby brother on the throne. The main problem lies in dealing with all
of the extraneous factions, plus the shit Littlefinger has created, and the
bigger pile built by Varys -- the eunuch instigated the War, but to what
ends? Why does he want Dani on the Iron Throne?
Hoobit J. Cahkov
> Wasn't it odd, though, when Stannis, essentially a Sea lord, showed up at
> Castle Black? Was it meant as some kind of counterpoint to the Grejoys?
He's gonna put some smart-ass kid in charge who wrecks the whole deal?
Jon is Theon!
> > Which is similar to how he treated the Watch - I'll lock you in a
> > room to sort yourselves out so you can support me in my war.
> > Granted, their wars seem to be the same at the moment, but I
> > wonder what the ramifications might be in the War for Succession.
> >
> The Succession is, for all concerned, over. Almost everyone seems to accept
> Joff's baby brother on the throne. The main problem lies in dealing with all
> of the extraneous factions, plus the shit Littlefinger has created, and the
> bigger pile built by Varys -- the eunuch instigated the War, but to what
> ends? Why does he want Dani on the Iron Throne?
He's aware that having Lannisters in power is probably a bad thing,
and he seems to know Jon Arryn's secret (probably before Arryn did).
Instead of letting the lions slowly tear the realm apart, Varys stirs
the pot and precipitates lots of these conflicts. Is the spider's web
bigger than we think? If he is loyal to the Realm, and Dani seems to
be the true ruler, he would put something like this in motion.
Now that she has dragons, it's almost unnecessary to divide the Seven
Kingdoms. But this way lots of alliegences have come into question,
and stubborn lords could be brought to heel as loyalties are split.
Many groups would be happy to sue for peace with a third party (don't
have to give their opponents the satisfaction). And they all seem to
forget - winter is coming.
Hoobit J. Cahkov
Ask Chucky about Star Trek, and behold his dorkitude.
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called <rpi...@nyc.rr.com>, and they made
us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>> Yep, it was surely before things went bad. But he stuck to it once he
>> was there and sworn in.
>>
>Why didn't Stannis seek out Benjen to take over the Great White North once
>Rob was dead? Did he think that a bastard, or a younger man, would be more
>pliable.
Maybe he thought Benjen was dead. Either way, he wasn't to be found on
the Wall, was he? Jon was.
>BTW, is it me, or does Stannis seem to have a soft spot for bastards, though
>he would never thinking of fathering any of his own?
I think it's just you. Stannis hasn't got a soft spot for any sort of
dalliance, barring the occasional wrestle with his little demon-lady.
But he'd draw the line at killing them.
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called <rpi...@nyc.rr.com>, and they made
us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>> Hee hee - at the risk of making yet another Simpsons reference and
>> make it look as though I can't converse with you in any other way,
>> your choice of words does make me think of Ned Flanders's Leftorium.
>> Ned really shouldn't be put in charge of things which require guile.
>
>BTW, I own a Springfield Nuclear Power Plant entry badge. I'm sure you could
>find 'em on the Web.
I don't doubt it. But yeesh, I've just wasted too much money on
e-buying as it is.
>> Exactly. And in the faint hope that he might get "accidentally"
>> killed. He'd have to be avenged, of course, but that wouldn't cancel
>> out the fact that he was dead, and good riddance.
>
>The best way for the Lanisters to have gotten anything done would have been
>to make Tyrion their spymaster or the equivalent. The dwarf would have made
>short work, purdon the pan, of Littlefinger (again, pardun the pon) and
>could have unmanned the eunuch. With those two gone, there is no war and
>Joffrey rules without opposition -- until Tyrion kills him, because Joff is
>nutter.
I loved the way Tyrion smacked Joffrey around.
>> I really think Tywin should have been left to stew in the fact that
>> the kid he hated most was the smart and charismatic and truly decent
>> one, while his perfect Aryans were boffing each other and breaking
>> their oaths as fast as they could take a breath. But his demise was
>> truly neat.
>
>My second favorite scene in the whole series, as was Tyrion comment to
>himself about the valuable metal content of his father's feces.
Damn right. Mine too. I really think it's a mark of Martin as a great
writer that a reader could get such satisfaction out of reading a
passage in which a dwarf throttles a hooker and shoots his own father.
Kalyahna
> Once upon a time - for example, Sun, 22 Feb 2004 15:50:02 -0600 -
> there was this guy, or something, called "Kalyahna"
> <kehl...@charter.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying
> the following stuff:
>
> >chances of Lyanna being gang-raped is pretty slim,
>
> Raped multiple times by Rhaegar, as Robert always claimed. Not
> gang-raped.
Robert was a putz, and a jealous one at that.
> >what with the old school
> >Kingsguard watching the tower.
>
> But I wouldn't go putting too much faith in the Kingsguard. Ser
> Barristan Selmy was just about the only one worth the paper he was
> printed on (or would have been, if he were an article of printed ...
> oh you know what I mean), the rest ... well shit. Jaime. I'd leave him
> looking after my family.
>
> Yes, I know he was actually looking after the King at the time (and
> wasn't that lucky?), but the other guys at the Tower of Joy, old
> school or not, weren't exactly going to stop the Targaryens from
> having some family fun with Lyanna if they wanted to.
Except that everything everyone -other- than Robert has to say about Rhaegar
suggests he isn't the sort to commit rape. Plus, I'm a big fan of the Jon
Targaryen school of thought.
Which is just warning that I'll blind myself to other possibilities unless
Martin comes right out and says at some point that Jon is not, in fact, the
child of Lyanna and Rhaegar's forbidden looooooooooooove.
> >> Is Benjen an older brother? I always assumed he was. Maybe he took the
> >> Black to avoid some sort of trouble with the Targaryens. Maybe he was
> >> the eldest son and heir, and he stood aside so Brandon and Eddard
> >> could deal with the dragon.
> >
> >The backs of the books tend to list everybody pretty specifically, down
to
> >age for living children. CoK lists Benjen as the younger sibling of Ned
and
> >Brandon.
>
> Spoilers! We haven't read to the back of the book yet.
>
>
>
>
>
> Kidding. Thanks for clearing up a misconception. I never really
> thought about Benjen before.
Are you not of the Benjen = Coldhands way of thinking?
mgraves
"Kalyahna" <kehl...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:103n040...@corp.supernews.com...
> > >The birthing bed is often enough referred to as the 'bloody bed.' The
> > >chances of Lyanna being gang-raped is pretty slim,
> >
> > Raped multiple times by Rhaegar, as Robert always claimed. Not
> > gang-raped.
>
> Robert was a putz, and a jealous one at that.
He was a redneck. If alive today, he would live in a trailer and watch
NASCAR (with Chucky).
> > >what with the old school
> > >Kingsguard watching the tower.
> >
> > But I wouldn't go putting too much faith in the Kingsguard. Ser
> > Barristan Selmy was just about the only one worth the paper he was
> > printed on (or would have been, if he were an article of printed ...
> > oh you know what I mean), the rest ... well shit. Jaime. I'd leave him
> > looking after my family.
> >
> > Yes, I know he was actually looking after the King at the time (and
> > wasn't that lucky?), but the other guys at the Tower of Joy, old
> > school or not, weren't exactly going to stop the Targaryens from
> > having some family fun with Lyanna if they wanted to.
>
> Except that everything everyone -other- than Robert has to say about
Rhaegar
> suggests he isn't the sort to commit rape. Plus, I'm a big fan of the Jon
> Targaryen school of thought.
> Which is just warning that I'll blind myself to other possibilities unless
> Martin comes right out and says at some point that Jon is not, in fact,
the
> child of Lyanna and Rhaegar's forbidden looooooooooooove.
I won't even care if GRRM does deny the Jon Targayen thing, I will still
believe it is true and will hold to it till the very end (of me or Martin, I
don't know which). It would be like that whole Taim/Demandred thing all
over again, and this time I will go postal.
> > >> Is Benjen an older brother? I always assumed he was. Maybe he took
the
> > >> Black to avoid some sort of trouble with the Targaryens. Maybe he was
> > >> the eldest son and heir, and he stood aside so Brandon and Eddard
> > >> could deal with the dragon.
> > >
> > >The backs of the books tend to list everybody pretty specifically, down
> to
> > >age for living children. CoK lists Benjen as the younger sibling of Ned
> and
> > >Brandon.
> >
> > Spoilers! We haven't read to the back of the book yet.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Kidding. Thanks for clearing up a misconception. I never really
> > thought about Benjen before.
>
> Are you not of the Benjen = Coldhands way of thinking?
Chucky is not for any theory that actually makes sense. He thinks that
Prince Aegon is dead too.
--
Go away. I'm alright.--H.G. Wells' last words
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
news:103n34i...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> > Except that everything everyone -other- than Robert has to say about
> Rhaegar
> > suggests he isn't the sort to commit rape. Plus, I'm a big fan of the
Jon
> > Targaryen school of thought.
> > Which is just warning that I'll blind myself to other possibilities
unless
> > Martin comes right out and says at some point that Jon is not, in fact,
> the
> > child of Lyanna and Rhaegar's forbidden looooooooooooove.
>
> I won't even care if GRRM does deny the Jon Targayen thing, I will still
> believe it is true and will hold to it till the very end (of me or Martin,
I
> don't know which). It would be like that whole Taim/Demandred thing all
> over again, and this time I will go postal.
>
Just kidding.
mgraves
"Chucky & Janica" <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote in message
> >- Ned seems afraid of the old Kings of the North and also of the tombs
> >waiting for him and his children. Is Ned a wuss or what?
>
> Hee hee. Yeah. He should sleep in that tomb, and get his kids to do
> the same, so they get used to it. I have always wondered how many
> tombs there are down there. There's lots of guys already dead, and the
> future tombs seem to be already dug. And are there older ones further
> down, or am I thinking of another part of the story? Anyway, what
> happens when the vault is full? Duh, I guess they dig another one.
Oldest are near the entrance and the newest are farther in. Given the carse
topography in the description of Winterfell, I would say that they are
probably widening an existing cave system.
> >- Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses yet she apparently died of a
> >fever. No question, just a point of interest for the central
> >theory/controversy of the book.
>
> She was surrounded by roses because she liked them. There was blood
> either because she was multiple-raped, or she was giving birth. Either
> way, I can't recall anybody saying she died of a fever. Maybe that was
> just a nice way of saying it.
We have all assumed that she died of an illness, brutalization or
complications during delivery, yet an accident cannot be ruled out. Maybe
she tried to interfere with the combat between the KG and Ned's company and
was injured as a result.
> Janica adds that women (back in those times, but obviously not as much
> now) who died in childbirth often didn't die directly because of the
> birth, but of something called "child-bed fever" (rough translation
> from Finnish). So that could be something adding weight to the Jon
> Targaryen theory.
As the Hound states later, the people of Westeros recognize the problems of
blood borne organisms that cause illness and the need for cleanliness. The
room smelling of blood indicates that she is bleeding at the time of her
death, or that her wounds have not been treated. Maybe she has a septic
infection, but why would someone scatter roses, but not clean-up the blood?
Someone argued that the roses are there because Lyanna liked them, but
wouldn't she have liked to have her wounds cleaned even more? It could be
that the ToJ is a Tyrell domicile, in which case, roses all over the room
would be a given (aSoS description of the Tyrell's apartments at KL). It
could also be that she suffered an injury as I stated above, or that she
died relatively quickly after delivering Jon (too soon to be the result of
sepsis).
> >- There's a nice reference here that I never caught before in the
discussion
> >of Robert Arryn's fostering where Ned talks of wounds that never really
> >heal. I believe he must be talking about the fight he and Robert had over
> >Rhaegar's children. Is there anything else it could be?
>
> It could also be a reference to Littlefinger. Jon Arryn and Ned stood
> together and wed the Tully sisters, and Littlefinger loved Catelyn and
> Lysa loved Littlefinger.
No. Definetly about Tywin.
> >- When Robert offers Ned the Handship he says that he needs someone to
tell
> >him the truth, not just to flatter him with lies. It's ironic that it is
> >Ned's truthtelling that creates friction between them.
>
> But Robert always settles down and eventually agrees with what Ned is
> saying. I like their relationship. "You're too fat for your armour."
>
> Of course, it was doomed from the start. The portents saw to that, and
> Ned is just too straight and honest. His talent for survival in court
> is something he handed down to Sansa, I think.
Agreed.
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
news:35dba5d3.04022...@posting.google.com...
accept
> > Joff's baby brother on the throne. The main problem lies in dealing with
all
> > of the extraneous factions, plus the shit Littlefinger has created, and
the
> > bigger pile built by Varys -- the eunuch instigated the War, but to what
> > ends? Why does he want Dani on the Iron Throne?
>
> He's aware that having Lannisters in power is probably a bad thing,
> and he seems to know Jon Arryn's secret (probably before Arryn did).
> Instead of letting the lions slowly tear the realm apart, Varys stirs
> the pot and precipitates lots of these conflicts. Is the spider's web
> bigger than we think? If he is loyal to the Realm, and Dani seems to
> be the true ruler, he would put something like this in motion.
>
it almost has to be Varys who is talking to Illyrio. We know the latter was
housing Dani & Vyseris, but not what he wanted from the two Tangartyens.
Also, doesn't Littlefinger's family go back to the Free Cities, and his
treatment by the lords of Westeros always been shitty because of that?
> Now that she has dragons, it's almost unnecessary to divide the Seven
> Kingdoms. But this way lots of alliegences have come into question,
> and stubborn lords could be brought to heel as loyalties are split.
> Many groups would be happy to sue for peace with a third party (don't
> have to give their opponents the satisfaction). And they all seem to
> forget - winter is coming.
>
I just wish that Winter would already get there!
On a more serious note, could Illyrio & Vyseris have been right? Are there
people who will rise if a Tangartyen returns? Robert certainly seemed to
think so, which is why he wanted her dead before she had Dothraki hordes and
dragons.
JJ Karhu
wrote:
>"Chucky & Janica" <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote in message
>news:mfah30l7hbtrncgih...@4ax.com...
>> either because she was multiple-raped, or she was giving birth. Either
>> way, I can't recall anybody saying she died of a fever. Maybe that was
>> just a nice way of saying it.
>
>We have all assumed that she died of an illness, brutalization or
>complications during delivery, yet an accident cannot be ruled out. Maybe
>she tried to interfere with the combat between the KG and Ned's company and
>was injured as a result.
I think that she was pushed off from the top of the Tower of Joy by
the then-teenaged Jaime and Cersei Lannister, who got the incest on
for the very first time (isn't there a Madonna song about that, by the
way?)
// JJ
Paul Bartel
rpi...@nyc.rr.com says...
> "Paul Bartel" <vorlo...@yahoo.ca.nospam> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1aa472ad3...@news.telus.net...
> > In article <403AB83A...@hotmail.com>,
> > respec...@hotmail.com says...
> > >
> > I don't recall any particular fondness for Jon being demonstrated
> > by Stannis. In fact, I recall Stannis very much treating Jon as
> > a means to an end; legitimize the bastard so the North gets under
> > control and can help Stannis in his war. Of course, my copy of
> > ASoS is out on loan at the moment, so I can't check to see if my
> > memory is faulty.
> >
> Wasn't it odd, though, when Stannis, essentially a Sea lord, showed up at
> Castle Black? Was it meant as some kind of counterpoint to the Grejoys?
>
to the North, not anything to do with Jon. Davos pointed out to
him that the best route to the throne might be to be the person
who actually defends the realm instead of tearing it apart.
> > Which is similar to how he treated the Watch - I'll lock you in a
> > room to sort yourselves out so you can support me in my war.
> > Granted, their wars seem to be the same at the moment, but I
> > wonder what the ramifications might be in the War for Succession.
> >
> The Succession is, for all concerned, over. Almost everyone seems to accept
> Joff's baby brother on the throne. The main problem lies in dealing with all
> of the extraneous factions, plus the shit Littlefinger has created, and the
> bigger pile built by Varys -- the eunuch instigated the War, but to what
> ends? Why does he want Dani on the Iron Throne?
>
I disagree about the Succession being over. Tommen is certainly
sitting in a powerful position and the Starks, to all intents and
purposes, are out of the game....but Myrcella is in Dorne, where
many factions might be inclined to raise her to Queen, I don't
believe that the Greyjoys are finished yet, and Stannis is still
playing, although with a strange gambit. Bolton may be the
proclaimed Lord of the North, but it remains to be seen if he can
pacify the North - I don't think many of the Houses of the North
are just going to roll over on this. The Lannisters need to do a
lot of work to consolidate their position, and with Tywin dead
and Tyrion fled, I'm not sure how easy that will be. Any sign of
confusion from King's Landing is going to prolong the whole
process.
As for the rest, I think unravelling of Littlefinger's and
Varys's plots is going to be fascinating reading for the next
several books.
Paul Bartel
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
> In article <ySM_b.1492$H17...@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
> rpi...@nyc.rr.com says...
> > "mgraves" <mgr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:103n34i...@corp.supernews.com...
> > >
still
> > > believe it is true and will hold to it till the very end (of me or
Martin,
> > I
> > > don't know which). It would be like that whole Taim/Demandred thing
all
> > > over again, and this time I will go postal.
> > >
> > Who are Taim and Demandred and where did they appear in the series?
> > Just kidding.
> >
> Bolton is Demandred!
>
Does that make George Michael -- Shaitan?
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
> In article <1WB_b.217410$4F2.31...@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
> rpi...@nyc.rr.com says...
> > "Paul Bartel" <vorlo...@yahoo.ca.nospam> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1aa472ad3...@news.telus.net...
> > > In article <403AB83A...@hotmail.com>,
> > > respec...@hotmail.com says...
>
> sitting in a powerful position and the Starks, to all intents and
> purposes, are out of the game....but Myrcella is in Dorne, where
> many factions might be inclined to raise her to Queen, I don't
> believe that the Greyjoys are finished yet, and Stannis is still
> playing, although with a strange gambit. Bolton may be the
> proclaimed Lord of the North, but it remains to be seen if he can
> pacify the North - I don't think many of the Houses of the North
> are just going to roll over on this. The Lannisters need to do a
> lot of work to consolidate their position, and with Tywin dead
> and Tyrion fled, I'm not sure how easy that will be. Any sign of
> confusion from King's Landing is going to prolong the whole
> process.
>
Jaime's still in the Kingsguard, so can he take over the House and Casterly
Rock? Tyrion is certainly not going to be accepted as House Head. Cersei
might turn into a complete basketcase now that Malfoy, I mean Joffrey is
dead. Their military position is the strongest, and they still have claims
to Jaime being Warden of the East, but their leadership is fucked.
Paul Bartel
rpi...@nyc.rr.com says...
is a good Ishydin, though.
glen
yet." IIRC that was just after comment that Eddard following in
Arryn's footsteps meant war. For sure, D & V weren't ready, so why
would Varys stir the pot now?
glen
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called <rpi...@nyc.rr.com>, and they made
us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>BTW, what will happen to the Lannisters now that Tywin's in the crapper?
>Jaime's still in the Kingsguard, so can he take over the House and Casterly
>Rock? Tyrion is certainly not going to be accepted as House Head. Cersei
>might turn into a complete basketcase now that Malfoy, I mean Joffrey is
>dead.
Bahahahahaha, we can only hope.
Chucky & Janica
this guy, or something, called mwie...@netscape.net (Hoobit J.
Cahkov), and they made us all feel better by saying the following
stuff:
>> > We're dorks, not dweebs....
>>
>> My mistake. It's just that you looked so much like a dweeb that I just
>> assumed.
>
>Ask Chucky about Star Trek, and behold his dorkitude.
Hey.
Live briefly, and fail.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called "Kalyahna"
<kehl...@charter.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying
the following stuff:
>> >The birthing bed is often enough referred to as the 'bloody bed.' The
>> >chances of Lyanna being gang-raped is pretty slim,
>>
>> Raped multiple times by Rhaegar, as Robert always claimed. Not
>> gang-raped.
>
>Robert was a putz, and a jealous one at that.
This has little or no bearing on the hypothesis.
>> But I wouldn't go putting too much faith in the Kingsguard. Ser
>> Barristan Selmy was just about the only one worth the paper he was
>> printed on (or would have been, if he were an article of printed ...
>> oh you know what I mean), the rest ... well shit. Jaime. I'd leave him
>> looking after my family.
>>
>> Yes, I know he was actually looking after the King at the time (and
>> wasn't that lucky?), but the other guys at the Tower of Joy, old
>> school or not, weren't exactly going to stop the Targaryens from
>> having some family fun with Lyanna if they wanted to.
>
>Except that everything everyone -other- than Robert has to say about Rhaegar
>suggests he isn't the sort to commit rape.
THis sister thinks he's great, and so does a slaver who was banished
and has Viserys as a point of comparison.
>Plus, I'm a big fan of the Jon
>Targaryen school of thought.
No kidding.
>Which is just warning that I'll blind myself to other possibilities
It doesn't matter. I'm not fond of the idea but I'm not waiting for
Martin to say so. In fact, I'm fully expecting the Reeds to make the
whole thing clear, most likely in a Targaryen-ish direction, sometime
quite soon.
Doesn't mean there aren't better ways for it to go.
>> Kidding. Thanks for clearing up a misconception. I never really
>> thought about Benjen before.
>
>Are you not of the Benjen = Coldhands way of thinking?
Yes, but I don't consider "Benjen = Coldhands" to be a definitive way
of actually *thinking* about Benjen.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called "mgraves"
<mgr...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>> Robert was a putz, and a jealous one at that.
>
>He was a redneck. If alive today, he would live in a trailer and watch
>NASCAR (with Chucky).
Where did you get the impression I had any liking for any kind of
sport, ever? I assume NASCAR is some sort of racing thing. *shrug* You
have been grossly misinformed.
>I won't even care if GRRM does deny the Jon Targayen thing, I will still
>believe it is true and will hold to it till the very end (of me or Martin, I
>don't know which). It would be like that whole Taim/Demandred thing all
>over again, and this time I will go postal.
I don't think Martin will change because of what fans say. But the
bastard with the mysterious past who knows only one thing for certain
(who his father is) then finding out that his father was somebody else
... it's cheesy.
>> > Kidding. Thanks for clearing up a misconception. I never really
>> > thought about Benjen before.
>>
>> Are you not of the Benjen = Coldhands way of thinking?
>
>Chucky is not for any theory that actually makes sense. He thinks that
>Prince Aegon is dead too.
That's not true. I don't like your theories either.
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called <rpi...@nyc.rr.com>, and they made
us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>Really, I always suspected that Michael Bolton was Demandred.
>
>Does that make George Michael -- Shaitan?
That would explain his close relationship with the Hand of the Shadow.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called "mgraves"
<mgr...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>> Hee hee. Yeah. He should sleep in that tomb, and get his kids to do
>> the same, so they get used to it. I have always wondered how many
>> tombs there are down there. There's lots of guys already dead, and the
>> future tombs seem to be already dug. And are there older ones further
>> down, or am I thinking of another part of the story? Anyway, what
>> happens when the vault is full? Duh, I guess they dig another one.
>
>Oldest are near the entrance and the newest are farther in. Given the carse
>topography in the description of Winterfell, I would say that they are
>probably widening an existing cave system.
I seem to recall there being some mention of older catacombs further
down. But I may be thinking of another book.
>> She was surrounded by roses because she liked them. There was blood
>> either because she was multiple-raped, or she was giving birth. Either
>> way, I can't recall anybody saying she died of a fever. Maybe that was
>> just a nice way of saying it.
>
>We have all assumed that she died of an illness, brutalization or
>complications during delivery, yet an accident cannot be ruled out. Maybe
>she tried to interfere with the combat between the KG and Ned's company and
>was injured as a result.
Maybe she pricked herself on a rose thorn. All the pieces fit.
>> Janica adds that women (back in those times, but obviously not as much
>> now) who died in childbirth often didn't die directly because of the
>> birth, but of something called "child-bed fever" (rough translation
>> from Finnish). So that could be something adding weight to the Jon
>> Targaryen theory.
>
>As the Hound states later, the people of Westeros recognize the problems of
>blood borne organisms that cause illness and the need for cleanliness. The
>room smelling of blood indicates that she is bleeding at the time of her
>death, or that her wounds have not been treated. Maybe she has a septic
>infection, but why would someone scatter roses, but not clean-up the blood?
Maybe it wasn't her blood.
>Someone argued that the roses are there because Lyanna liked them,
That would be me, just above.
>It could also be that she suffered an injury as I stated above, or that she
>died relatively quickly after delivering Jon (too soon to be the result of
>sepsis).
If she died in childbirth, where is her midwife? It was very crowded
in that tower for a while, maybe the midwife snuck away in the
Marx-brothers-esque confusion.
>> It could also be a reference to Littlefinger. Jon Arryn and Ned stood
>> together and wed the Tully sisters, and Littlefinger loved Catelyn and
>> Lysa loved Littlefinger.
>
>No. Definetly about Tywin.
Right. Definitely.
mgraves
"Chucky & Janica" <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote in message
> Once upon a time - for example, Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:35:06 -0600 -
> there was this guy, or something, called "mgraves"
> <mgr...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
> following stuff:
>
> >> Robert was a putz, and a jealous one at that.
> >
> >He was a redneck. If alive today, he would live in a trailer and watch
> >NASCAR (with Chucky).
>
> Where did you get the impression I had any liking for any kind of
> sport, ever? I assume NASCAR is some sort of racing thing. *shrug* You
> have been grossly misinformed.
I make a point of being completely uninformed. Information leads to a
biased viewpoint. Ignorance is my armor.
> >I won't even care if GRRM does deny the Jon Targayen thing, I will still
> >believe it is true and will hold to it till the very end (of me or
Martin, I
> >don't know which). It would be like that whole Taim/Demandred thing all
> >over again, and this time I will go postal.
>
> I don't think Martin will change because of what fans say. But the
> bastard with the mysterious past who knows only one thing for certain
> (who his father is) then finding out that his father was somebody else
> ... it's cheesy.
The resolution is going to be cheesy regardless. Even if Jon is a Dane, not
a Targaryen, he is still set up to be the Kwisatz Haderacht. His past is my
least favorite part of the story.
> >> > Kidding. Thanks for clearing up a misconception. I never really
> >> > thought about Benjen before.
> >>
> >> Are you not of the Benjen = Coldhands way of thinking?
> >
> >Chucky is not for any theory that actually makes sense. He thinks that
> >Prince Aegon is dead too.
>
> That's not true. I don't like your theories either.
You just don't like me. If Matt or Trade come up with a theory, you just
can't heap on enough praise. I, on the other hand, am beaten like a dog if
I point out that Gregor is a large man.
...and for Gods sake, never, ever shake a baby.
--
I can write better than anybody who can write faster,
and I can write faster than anybody
who can write better.--A. J. Liebling
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
> Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:05:13 GMT - there
> was this guy, or something, called <rpi...@nyc.rr.com>, and they made
> us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>
> >Really, I always suspected that Michael Bolton was Demandred.
> >
> >Does that make George Michael -- Shaitan?
>
> That would explain his close relationship with the Hand of the Shadow.
>
Matt Wuz Hear
> >
> >Ask Chucky about Star Trek, and behold his dorkitude.
>
> Hey.
>
> Live briefly,
Working on it.
> and fail.
Done.
--
Is it "making love" when the woman has
four penises in her, and then pees on the man?
Is it "making love" when five midgets spank a
man covered in Thousand Island dressing?
- Token, South Park
Matt Wuz Hear
That no talent ass-clown!
Matt Wuz Hear
Nobody likes Millhouse.
> If Matt or Trade come up with a theory, you just
> can't heap on enough praise.
Bwahahaha! I sure hope to see that someday, because I'm a complete
idiot.
And I'm on the fence with Jon's lineage.
> I, on the other hand, am beaten like a dog if
> I point out that Gregor is a large man.
Stop looking in his codpiece.
> ...and for Gods sake, never, ever shake a baby.
Don't kick the baby.
Matt Wuz Hear
Opportunity? With the changing of Hands, Ned kicked a wasps nest, and
Varys took advantage while he could.
Matt Wuz Hear
>
> Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:10:59 GMT - there
> was this guy, or something, called <rpi...@nyc.rr.com>, and they made
> us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>
> >BTW, what will happen to the Lannisters now that Tywin's in the crapper?
> >Jaime's still in the Kingsguard, so can he take over the House and Casterly
> >Rock? Tyrion is certainly not going to be accepted as House Head. Cersei
> >might turn into a complete basketcase now that Malfoy, I mean Joffrey is
> >dead.
>
> Bahahahahaha, we can only hope.
Was it Kevan Lannister that stepped up to the role? Tywin's brother, not
the one that dipped his wick into old auntie Cersei.
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
news:403D2F0E...@hotmail.com...
coming whether they were ready or not. He wanted to be able to manipulate
events and position who lived or died. My question is still, to what end?
What game are he & Illyrio playing? Why kill Jon Arryn & Ned Stark. What is
so important about those bastards and the Succession of a Tangartyen? Maybe,
the question should be, "what is the connection between the bastards &
Winter?"
Let's look at it another way --
The Dead: Jon Arryn; Ned and Robb Stark; Tywin & Joff Lannister; Robert &
Renly Baratheon.
The Defeated: the Starks; Stannis Baratheon; the Tullys; even the Arryns.
Falling: the Starks; the Tullys; the Baratheons; the Arryns; even the
Lannisters.
Rising: Dorne; the Lannisters; Roose Bolton; Danyeres.
Look at the list of the Fallen/Falling Houses. One royal House, and 3
Wardens. Does it seem like the prelude for an invasion. Yes. Who was not
ready? Illyrio did not marry off Dani yet and did not have enough ships for
the Dothraki hordes. Myrcella is being house with the Dorne, who never bent
knee to the Tangartyens, but married into the family. The Dornes stand to
threaten the Warden of the South, Mace Tyrrell. Dorne lands are also the
most logical place to land a naval invasion force, as they are closest to
the Free Cities. What will Illyrio get? The wealth of Westeros, perhaps. How
about the Free Cities' having little to fear from the new kingdom, and
increased trade? What does Varys gain? How about a land with biddible lords.
Or, in a world filled with magic, his manhood back. Or, respect and revenge.
What will Littlefinger get? My guess is a hanging.
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
> Chucky & Janica wrote:
> >
> > Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:10:59 GMT - there
> > was this guy, or something, called <rpi...@nyc.rr.com>, and they made
> > us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
> >
> > >BTW, what will happen to the Lannisters now that Tywin's in the
crapper?
> > >Jaime's still in the Kingsguard, so can he take over the House and
Casterly
> > >Rock? Tyrion is certainly not going to be accepted as House Head.
Cersei
> > >might turn into a complete basketcase now that Malfoy, I mean Joffrey
is
> > >dead.
> >
> > Bahahahahaha, we can only hope.
>
> Was it Kevan Lannister that stepped up to the role? Tywin's brother, not
> the one that dipped his wick into old auntie Cersei.
>
Matt Wuz Hear
> (But thanks for the hot wax enema imagery.)
That's what I'm here for. Slut the place up a bit.
PJ Beers
> "mgraves" <mgr...@midammetal.com> wrote ...
> > [Trade Surplus wrote]
> > > - Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses yet she apparently died of
a
> > > fever. No question, just a point of interest for the central
> > > theory/controversy of the book.
> >
can
> > see the mountains of Dorne from the vicinity of Highgarden, can't you?
>
> I hadn't thought of that. I presumed that the roses were a reference to
the
> crown of roses that Rhaegar gave Lyanna at Harrenhal but I could be
wrong.
I thought they were a reference to Rhaegar's colours. He fought at the
Trident covered in rubies. Rubies, roses, red.
PJ
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Matt Wuz Hear
<respec...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by
saying the following stuff:
>> >BTW, what will happen to the Lannisters now that Tywin's in the crapper?
>> >Jaime's still in the Kingsguard, so can he take over the House and Casterly
>> >Rock? Tyrion is certainly not going to be accepted as House Head. Cersei
>> >might turn into a complete basketcase now that Malfoy, I mean Joffrey is
>> >dead.
>>
>> Bahahahahaha, we can only hope.
>
>Was it Kevan Lannister that stepped up to the role? Tywin's brother, not
>the one that dipped his wick into old auntie Cersei.
The latter was Lancel. I don't think he took over. He was just a
squire.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called "PJ Beers"
<pj_b...@laimtoh.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>I thought they were a reference to Rhaegar's colours. He fought at the
>Trident covered in rubies. Rubies, roses, red.
At the risk of sounding like a limerick, winter roses are blue.
Aren't they?
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Matt Wuz Hear
saying the following stuff:
>> >Ask Chucky about Star Trek, and behold his dorkitude.
>>
>> Hey.
>>
>> Live briefly,
>
>Working on it.
>
>> and fail.
>
>Done.
Excellent.
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called <rpi...@nyc.rr.com>, and they made
us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>> >Really, I always suspected that Michael Bolton was Demandred.
>> >
>> >Does that make George Michael -- Shaitan?
>>
>> That would explain his close relationship with the Hand of the Shadow.
>
>Why was he sticking that finger into the Bore?
Looking for some fast love?
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called "mgraves"
<mgr...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>> Where did you get the impression I had any liking for any kind of
>> sport, ever? I assume NASCAR is some sort of racing thing. *shrug* You
>> have been grossly misinformed.
>
>I make a point of being completely uninformed. Information leads to a
>biased viewpoint. Ignorance is my armor.
*chuckles*
Okay, partial credit.
>> I don't think Martin will change because of what fans say. But the
>> bastard with the mysterious past who knows only one thing for certain
>> (who his father is) then finding out that his father was somebody else
>> ... it's cheesy.
>
>The resolution is going to be cheesy regardless. Even if Jon is a Dane, not
>a Targaryen, he is still set up to be the Kwisatz Haderacht. His past is my
>least favorite part of the story.
But as soon as his parentage became a mystery, his future became
uncertain, his life turned bleak and he acquired an albino direwolf,
Jon Snow gained immortality.
The most impressive thing Martin could do in the next book would be to
kill Jon. But I doubt he will. Jon's one of the few people I'm pretty
certain will survive at least until the near-ending. Once it became
clear that just about anybody could die, I had to adjust down. But
Jon's a stayer.
>> >Chucky is not for any theory that actually makes sense. He thinks that
>> >Prince Aegon is dead too.
>>
>> That's not true. I don't like your theories either.
>
>You just don't like me.
You speak the truth. It's your hairdo. I hate that fucking hairdo.
This is not the 1980s. Move on.
>If Matt or Trade come up with a theory, you just
>can't heap on enough praise.
Matt? Theory?
>I, on the other hand, am beaten like a dog if
>I point out that Gregor is a large man.
*rolls up newspaper*
What?
> ...and for Gods sake, never, ever shake a baby.
Depending on the hairdo.
PJ Beers
> Once upon a time - for example, Thu, 26 Feb 2004 11:20:56 +0100 -
> there was this guy, or something, called "PJ Beers"
> <pj_b...@laimtoh.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
> following stuff:
>
> >I thought they were a reference to Rhaegar's colours. He fought at the
> >Trident covered in rubies. Rubies, roses, red.
>
> At the risk of sounding like a limerick, winter roses are blue.
>
> Aren't they?
I think she got blue roses at the tourney at Harrenhal, however, these
roses in the ToJ were red. IIRC. I think I need a memory expansion.
Did you have any specific limerick in mind?
Winter roses are blue,
I love you, Lyanna, it's true!
But here in your bed,
your roses are red,
and due to your blood so are you.
PJ
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
news:c1l4e7$dn6$1...@news.surfnet.nl...
> "Chucky & Janica" ...
> > Once upon a time - for example, Thu, 26 Feb 2004 11:20:56 +0100 -
> > there was this guy, or something, called "PJ Beers"
> > <pj_b...@laimtoh.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
> > following stuff:
>
>
> Winter roses are blue,
> I love you, Lyanna, it's true!
> But here in your bed,
> your roses are red,
> and due to your blood so are you.
>
Who wandered in tombs in the dark
But being the Hand
He came to a bad end
Near a Hound with a worse bite than his bark.
mgraves
"Chucky & Janica" <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote in message
> Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:50:09 -0600 -
> there was this guy, or something, called "mgraves"
> <mgr...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
> following stuff:
> >> I don't think Martin will change because of what fans say. But the
> >> bastard with the mysterious past who knows only one thing for certain
> >> (who his father is) then finding out that his father was somebody else
> >> ... it's cheesy.
> >
> >The resolution is going to be cheesy regardless. Even if Jon is a Dane,
not
> >a Targaryen, he is still set up to be the Kwisatz Haderacht. His past is
my
> >least favorite part of the story.
>
> But as soon as his parentage became a mystery, his future became
> uncertain, his life turned bleak and he acquired an albino direwolf,
> Jon Snow gained immortality.
>
> The most impressive thing Martin could do in the next book would be to
> kill Jon. But I doubt he will. Jon's one of the few people I'm pretty
> certain will survive at least until the near-ending. Once it became
> clear that just about anybody could die, I had to adjust down. But
> Jon's a stayer.
I have faith. Jon will die.
> >> >Chucky is not for any theory that actually makes sense. He thinks
that
> >> >Prince Aegon is dead too.
> >>
> >> That's not true. I don't like your theories either.
> >
> >You just don't like me.
>
> You speak the truth. It's your hairdo. I hate that fucking hairdo.
> This is not the 1980s. Move on.
Morrisey's hair is out of style? I will never be able to find another
hairdo that goes so well with my parachute pants.
> >If Matt or Trade come up with a theory, you just
> >can't heap on enough praise.
>
> Matt? Theory?
Matt: ... Tywin knows he'd be outclassed but...
C&J: Exactly...
Matt: ...R'hllor could be a natural force that is unfathomable...
C&J: Agreed...
Matt: Still seems silly for him to join the watch at all...
C&J: Yep...
Matt: I bet you would like to wear my nut sack as a hat...
C&J: Absolutely...
> >I, on the other hand, am beaten like a dog if
> >I point out that Gregor is a large man.
>
> *rolls up newspaper*
>
> What?
I told you I needed to go outside.
> > ...and for Gods sake, never, ever shake a baby.
>
> Depending on the hairdo.
Girlfriend in a coma, I know, I know...
Matt Wuz Hear
>
> Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:28:34 -0500 -
> there was this guy, or something, called Matt Wuz Hear
> <respec...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by
> saying the following stuff:
>
> >> >BTW, what will happen to the Lannisters now that Tywin's in the crapper?
> >> >Jaime's still in the Kingsguard, so can he take over the House and Casterly
> >> >Rock? Tyrion is certainly not going to be accepted as House Head. Cersei
> >> >might turn into a complete basketcase now that Malfoy, I mean Joffrey is
> >> >dead.
> >>
> >> Bahahahahaha, we can only hope.
> >
> >Was it Kevan Lannister that stepped up to the role? Tywin's brother, not
> >the one that dipped his wick into old auntie Cersei.
>
> The latter was Lancel.
Right. Him too. What did he do now?
> I don't think he took over. He was just a
> squire.
A squire could take over! Perhaps if a mythical creature lobbed a
scimitar in his direction.
Matt Wuz Hear
>
> > Matt? Theory?
>
> Matt: ... Tywin knows he'd be outclassed but...
> C&J: Exactly...
>
> Matt: ...R'hllor could be a natural force that is unfathomable...
> C&J: Agreed...
>
> Matt: Still seems silly for him to join the watch at all...
> C&J: Yep...
>
> Matt: I bet you would like to wear my nut sack as a hat...
> C&J: Absolutely...
Heh. They don't call him Hatboy for nothing.
Matt Wuz Hear
>
>
> >If Matt or Trade come up with a theory, you just
> >can't heap on enough praise.
>
> Matt? Theory?
When he say's things like that it reminds me why he's not credible.
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
<rpi...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:l7q%b.24061$H17....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
2:
"These are Seven that are One,
With each image an Icon
All Seven are kept
Within every Sept
Amid candles by crystal-crowned Septons."
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Matt Wuz Hear
<respec...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by
saying the following stuff:
>> >Was it Kevan Lannister that stepped up to the role? Tywin's brother, not
>> >the one that dipped his wick into old auntie Cersei.
>>
>> The latter was Lancel.
>
>Right. Him too. What did he do now?
Gave Robert some wine bags and then screwed his auntie. Or was he a
cousin? Meh.
>> I don't think he took over. He was just a
>> squire.
>
>A squire could take over! Perhaps if a mythical creature lobbed a
>scimitar in his direction.
That sort of supreme executive authority can only be apportioned out
by a declaration from the masses. And well you know it.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called "PJ Beers"
<pj_b...@laimtoh.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>Did you have any specific limerick in mind?
>
>Winter roses are blue,
>I love you, Lyanna, it's true!
>But here in your bed,
>your roses are red,
>and due to your blood so are you.
*shudder* Awful. Just awful.
But probably better than,
Roses are red,
roses are blue,
Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn,
And Tyrion, Aegon, Lancel, Hodor, Bran, Jeyne, Lollys, Petyr, Tommen,
Patchface, Theon, Shaggydog and Old Nan all are too.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called "mgraves"
<mgr...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>> The most impressive thing Martin could do in the next book would be to
>> kill Jon. But I doubt he will. Jon's one of the few people I'm pretty
>> certain will survive at least until the near-ending. Once it became
>> clear that just about anybody could die, I had to adjust down. But
>> Jon's a stayer.
>
>I have faith. Jon will die.
I have hope.
>> You speak the truth. It's your hairdo. I hate that fucking hairdo.
>> This is not the 1980s. Move on.
>
>Morrisey's hair is out of style? I will never be able to find another
>hairdo that goes so well with my parachute pants.
*scowls, trying not to giggle*
>> Matt? Theory?
>
>Matt: ... Tywin knows he'd be outclassed but...
>C&J: Exactly...
>
>Matt: ...R'hllor could be a natural force that is unfathomable...
>C&J: Agreed...
>
>Matt: Still seems silly for him to join the watch at all...
>C&J: Yep...
>
>Matt: I bet you would like to wear my nut sack as a hat...
>C&J: Absolutely...
None of these sound like theories to me. And Dr. Nick here is an
engineer. They don't have nut sacks. So ha!
>> > ...and for Gods sake, never, ever shake a baby.
>>
>> Depending on the hairdo.
>
>Girlfriend in a coma, I know, I know...
Oh, oh, oh?
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Matt Wuz Hear
<respec...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by
saying the following stuff:
>> >If Matt or Trade come up with a theory, you just
>> >can't heap on enough praise.
>>
>> Matt? Theory?
>
>When he say's things like that it reminds me why he's not credible.
I agree!
*sneers at Mgraves*
PJ Beers
> Once upon a time - for example, Thu, 26 Feb 2004 16:47:16 +0100 -
> there was this guy, or something, called "PJ Beers"
> <pj_b...@laimtoh.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
> following stuff:
>
> >Did you have any specific limerick in mind?
> >
> >Winter roses are blue,
> >I love you, Lyanna, it's true!
> >But here in your bed,
> >your roses are red,
> >and due to your blood so are you.
>
> *shudder* Awful. Just awful.
Hey, you just said I made you all feel better!
> But probably better than,
>
> Roses are red,
> roses are blue,
> Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn,
> And Tyrion, Aegon, Lancel, Hodor, Bran, Jeyne, Lollys, Petyr, Tommen,
> Patchface, Theon, Shaggydog and Old Nan all are too.
What very specific meter you use in this... very experimental.. poem.
Ah.. What interesting work... Perhaps form the earlier work of the poet?
PJ
mgraves
"Chucky & Janica" <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote in message
> Once upon a time - for example, Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:21:16 -0600 -
> there was this guy, or something, called "mgraves"
> <mgr...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
> following stuff:
>
> >> The most impressive thing Martin could do in the next book would be to
> >> kill Jon. But I doubt he will. Jon's one of the few people I'm pretty
> >> certain will survive at least until the near-ending. Once it became
> >> clear that just about anybody could die, I had to adjust down. But
> >> Jon's a stayer.
> >
> >I have faith. Jon will die.
>
> I have hope.
Hope reuires some sort of encouragement or evidence. Faith allows one to
laugh in the face of facts.
> >> Matt? Theory?
> >
> >Matt: ... Tywin knows he'd be outclassed but...
> >C&J: Exactly...
> >
> >Matt: ...R'hllor could be a natural force that is unfathomable...
> >C&J: Agreed...
> >
> >Matt: Still seems silly for him to join the watch at all...
> >C&J: Yep...
> >
> >Matt: I bet you would like to wear my nut sack as a hat...
> >C&J: Absolutely...
>
> None of these sound like theories to me. And Dr. Nick here is an
> engineer. They don't have nut sacks. So ha!
Wait a minute. I am an....
*stops to check family jewels*
engineer.
> >> > ...and for Gods sake, never, ever shake a baby.
> >>
> >> Depending on the hairdo.
> >
> >Girlfriend in a coma, I know, I know...
>
> Oh, oh, oh?
It's really serious.
Matt Wuz Hear
>
> "Chucky & Janica" <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote in message
> news:0cru30lops8t65efm...@4ax.com...
> > Once upon a time - for example, Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:21:16 -0600 -
> > there was this guy, or something, called "mgraves"
> > <mgr...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
> > following stuff:
> >
> > I have hope.
>
> Hope reuires some sort of encouragement or evidence.
Good thing hope doesn't require a "q"
> > None of these sound like theories to me. And Dr. Nick here is an
> > engineer. They don't have nut sacks. So ha!
>
> Wait a minute. I am an....
>
> *stops to check family jewels*
>
> engineer.
That surprises me not at all.
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
news:aPI%b.22649$Im5.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
> "These are Seven that are One,
> With each image an Icon
> All Seven are kept
> Within every Sept
> Amid candles by crystal-crowned Septons."
>
Lord Tywin was never one too rash nor too bold,
Yet he was not so dapper
Whilst upon the crapper
He found out that he didn't shit gold.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called "PJ Beers"
<pj_b...@laimtoh.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>> >Winter roses are blue,
>> >I love you, Lyanna, it's true!
>> >But here in your bed,
>> >your roses are red,
>> >and due to your blood so are you.
>>
>> *shudder* Awful. Just awful.
>
>Hey, you just said I made you all feel better!
You did. But it was still awful!
>> But probably better than,
>>
>> Roses are red,
>> roses are blue,
>> Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn,
>> And Tyrion, Aegon, Lancel, Hodor, Bran, Jeyne, Lollys, Petyr, Tommen,
>> Patchface, Theon, Shaggydog and Old Nan all are too.
>
>What very specific meter you use in this... very experimental.. poem.
>
>Ah.. What interesting work... Perhaps form the earlier work of the poet?
It was when I was going through my "I Hate Pigeonhole Theories" phase.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called "mgraves"
<mgr...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>Hope reuires some sort of encouragement or evidence. Faith allows one to
>laugh in the face of facts.
Faith, hop and charity. And the greatest of these is hop.
*hops*
>> >Matt: I bet you would like to wear my nut sack as a hat...
>> >C&J: Absolutely...
>>
>> None of these sound like theories to me. And Dr. Nick here is an
>> engineer. They don't have nut sacks. So ha!
>
>Wait a minute. I am an....
>
>*stops to check family jewels*
>
>engineer.
See?
>> >> > ...and for Gods sake, never, ever shake a baby.
>> >>
>> >> Depending on the hairdo.
>> >
>> >Girlfriend in a coma, I know, I know...
>>
>> Oh, oh, oh?
>
>It's really serious.
I thought you were being Patchface.
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called <rpi...@nyc.rr.com>, and they made
us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>> "These are Seven that are One,
>> With each image an Icon
>> All Seven are kept
>> Within every Sept
>> Amid candles by crystal-crowned Septons."
>
>There once was a lord who lived to be old,
>Lord Tywin was never one too rash nor too bold,
>Yet he was not so dapper
>Whilst upon the crapper
>He found out that he didn't shit gold.
If you ever fall through a spatial anomaly and find yourself trapped
in the lands of Westeros, you could get a good job as a court bard ...
for about three minutes before they hang you.
mgraves
"Chucky & Janica" <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote in message
> Once upon a time - for example, Thu, 26 Feb 2004 16:47:16 +0100 -
> there was this guy, or something, called "PJ Beers"
> <pj_b...@laimtoh.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
> following stuff:
>
> >Did you have any specific limerick in mind?
> >
> >Winter roses are blue,
> >I love you, Lyanna, it's true!
> >But here in your bed,
> >your roses are red,
> >and due to your blood so are you.
>
> *shudder* Awful. Just awful.
>
> But probably better than,
>
> Roses are red,
> roses are blue,
> Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn,
> And Tyrion, Aegon, Lancel, Hodor, Bran, Jeyne, Lollys, Petyr, Tommen,
> Patchface, Theon, Shaggydog and Old Nan all are too.
There once was a man named Ned,
The Southrons, they cut off his head,
Now his children are scattered,
His homeland is battered,
and his wife has become an undead.
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
> Once upon a time - for example, Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:27:50 +0100 -
> there was this guy, or something, called "PJ Beers"
> <pj_b...@laimtoh.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
> following stuff:
>
> >> >Winter roses are blue,
> >> >I love you, Lyanna, it's true!
> >> >But here in your bed,
> >> >your roses are red,
> >> >and due to your blood so are you.
> >>
> >> *shudder* Awful. Just awful.
> >
> >Hey, you just said I made you all feel better!
>
> You did. But it was still awful!
>
> >> But probably better than,
> >>
> >> Roses are red,
> >> roses are blue,
> >> Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn,
> >> And Tyrion, Aegon, Lancel, Hodor, Bran, Jeyne, Lollys, Petyr, Tommen,
> >> Patchface, Theon, Shaggydog and Old Nan all are too.
> >
> >What very specific meter you use in this... very experimental.. poem.
> >
> >Ah.. What interesting work... Perhaps form the earlier work of the poet?
>
> It was when I was going through my "I Hate Pigeonhole Theories" phase.
>
budweisserin."
mgraves
"Chucky & Janica" <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote in message
news:qip0401gkutllk1q1...@4ax.com...
> there was this guy, or something, called "PJ Beers"
> <pj_b...@laimtoh.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
> following stuff:
>
> >> >Winter roses are blue,
> >> >I love you, Lyanna, it's true!
> >> >But here in your bed,
> >> >your roses are red,
> >> >and due to your blood so are you.
> >>
> >> *shudder* Awful. Just awful.
> >
> >Hey, you just said I made you all feel better!
>
> You did. But it was still awful!
>
> >> But probably better than,
> >>
> >> Roses are red,
> >> roses are blue,
> >> Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn,
> >> And Tyrion, Aegon, Lancel, Hodor, Bran, Jeyne, Lollys, Petyr, Tommen,
> >> Patchface, Theon, Shaggydog and Old Nan all are too.
> >
> >What very specific meter you use in this... very experimental.. poem.
> >
> >Ah.. What interesting work... Perhaps form the earlier work of the poet?
>
> It was when I was going through my "I Hate Pigeonhole Theories" phase.
Pigeonholes are not theoretical. There is enough empirical evidence of
their existence that pigeonologists have moved them to the status of
Pigeonhole Laws.
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
> Once upon a time - for example, Sat, 28 Feb 2004 05:20:39 GMT - there
> was this guy, or something, called <rpi...@nyc.rr.com>, and they made
> us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>
> >> "These are Seven that are One,
> >> With each image an Icon
> >> All Seven are kept
> >> Within every Sept
> >> Amid candles by crystal-crowned Septons."
> >
> >There once was a lord who lived to be old,
> >Lord Tywin was never one too rash nor too bold,
> >Yet he was not so dapper
> >Whilst upon the crapper
> >He found out that he didn't shit gold.
>
> If you ever fall through a spatial anomaly and find yourself trapped
> in the lands of Westeros, you could get a good job as a court bard ...
> for about three minutes before they hang you.
>
spends 5-10 years either in prison, insane in an institution, or using
dangerous pharmaceuticals. Most are hated in their time, which is often
deserved, as we are cruel bastards who say what we feel all the time without
caring about the feelings of others. There are few who do not fit this mold,
but those are usually the lesser poets, like Byron and Shelly.
mgraves
"Chucky & Janica" <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote in message
> Once upon a time - for example, Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:56:17 -0600 -
> there was this guy, or something, called "mgraves"
> <mgr...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
> following stuff:
>
> >Hope reuires some sort of encouragement or evidence. Faith allows one to
> >laugh in the face of facts.
>
> Faith, hop and charity. And the greatest of these is hop.
>
> *hops*
>
> >> >Matt: I bet you would like to wear my nut sack as a hat...
> >> >C&J: Absolutely...
> >>
> >> None of these sound like theories to me. And Dr. Nick here is an
> >> engineer. They don't have nut sacks. So ha!
> >
> >Wait a minute. I am an....
> >
> >*stops to check family jewels*
> >
> >engineer.
>
> See?
>
> >> >> > ...and for Gods sake, never, ever shake a baby.
> >> >>
> >> >> Depending on the hairdo.
> >> >
> >> >Girlfriend in a coma, I know, I know...
> >>
> >> Oh, oh, oh?
> >
> >It's really serious.
>
> I thought you were being Patchface.
You're the Gene Simmons fan. It's the Smiths, Johny Cash, Big Country and
Oingo Boingo for me.
rpi...@nyc.rr.com
news:d830c.31614$SM6....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
Or should that be Braavos?