CHOW: Arya VII, or It's Jaqen H'ghar, H'ghoming to H'ghill me!
Chucky & Janica
This is a Chapter of the Week (CHOW) post, part of alt.fan.grrm's
coordinated re-read of ASoIaF. For a list of assigned chapters and
links to previous CHOW threads see:
To volunteer to lead a chapter thread email trades...@hotmail.com.
Arya VII, or It's Jaqen H'ghar, H'ghoming to H'ghill me!
Meanwhile, in Harrenhal, our intrepid horseface is having a wonderful
time. We learn that Harren the Black's names for the forbidding
collection of towers are long-lost to history, and they are now known
as the Tower of Dread, the Widow's Tower, the Wailing Tower, the Tower
of Ghosts, and Kingspyre Tower. The sixth tower, the Nice Cup of Tea
Tower, had long since collapsed. Arya is stationed in the Wailing
Tower, with a straw bed and water and a chunk of soap, although
whether or not she shaved with it is a subject for debate. She has
changed her pseudonym from Arry to Weasel, and is enjoying the
relative luxury of food and warmth.
Her buddy Hot Pie is stationed in the kitchens, and Gendry is in the
forge. She doesn't want to know anybody else, because the death toll
is quite high. The huge keep, castle or whatever it is was once under
the charge of Lady Whent, but she'd been run off and the workers she'd
left behind weren't enough to care for all Tywin's lads, hence the
slave collection from nearby towns. There are rumours that Tywin is
planning on restoring Harrenhal, and making it his new stronghold.
Arya is Weese's messenger-girl, and various assistant. But she's
mainly a cleaner, on Weese's Harrenhal Restoration Team. She doesn't
believe the ghost stories, and knows the Wailing Tower only wails
because of the wind in its cracks. She's more scared of the tinpot
tyrant Weese and his nasty dog. It only took Weese three days to get
himself onto Arya's Kill List, along with Dunsen, Chiswyck, Polliver,
Raff the Sweetling, the Tickler (Kitzler), the Hound, the Mountain,
Amory Lorch, Ilyn Payne, Meryn Trant, Joffrey and Cersei. It's
beginning to get to the point where it would be easier, in fact, for
Arya to have a Not Kill List.
Harrenhal is big. Three times bigger than Winterfell, with a
twenty-acre godswood, stables for a thousand horses, and so on. Arya
hears all sorts of rumours, about Joffrey's popularity and the sudden
scattering of Kings around the place. She sees the Bloody Mummers for
the first time, with their blood-horned goat-banner and their wildly
diverse freakshow soldiery under Hoat the Goat. They're sellswords and
"Lord Hoat" isn't apparently a Lord at all, but they've been known to
do nasty things to people who say so.
We learn that a force led by Roose Bolton has occupied the ruby ford
of the Trident, presumably where Rhaegar died and Arya first whapped
Joffrey. The Lannister boys say that if Bolton tries to cross, Tywin
will "smash him again like he did on the Green Fork". They also say
that Bolton won't cross until "the Young Wolf marches from Riverrun
with his wild northmen and all them wolves". Arya wants, naturally
enough, to try to get to Robb. She learns that the captives taken
during the battle on the Green Fork are being stowed in the Tower of
Dread, and she wonders if they might be encouraged to help her.
The captured Freys are promptly ransomed off, and there are northmen,
including Lord Cerwyn, but he dies before he can help Arya. Then Ser
Amory Lorch returns from his roving, with somewhat less men than he'd
started out with but three notable additions to his team: Rorge,
Biter, and our wacky-haired pal, Jaqen H'ghar. That night, even though
she was bleeding from work and near collapse from exhaustion, she
still calls out her Kill List. She wonders whether she should add her
friends from the wagon, but decides to just leave them in the Kill
Pending Subfolder.
Jaqen recognised her; he arrives in the middle of the night and talks
to her. He tells her that the Red God has his due, and only death may
pay for life. He tells her that he's going to bump off three people of
her choice, and all she needs to do is whisper their names to him.
The next morning she thinks about it, but doesn't want to trust Jaqen.
Her father taught her that a man should kill somebody himself if he's
going to do it, and she's led by his obviously sensible and
life-preserving example.
The Mountain and his boys return while Arya is thinking about it, and
Chiswyck tells his delightful story about the innkeeper's
thirteen-year-old daughter and how they all had a great time
pack-raping her. Apparently the punchline was "Gregor asked for change
and her father gave it to him", which was a very funny punchline
indeed and earned Chiswyck a well-enough-deserved number one place in
the new Arya-Jaqen Shared Kill Folder (allowed maximum content: 3).
She whispers Chiswyck's name to Jaqen a few days later, and Chiswyck
mysteriously accidentally brutally falls off a walkway and smashes
himself to pieces while walking in his sleep (nod of respect to Mister
Blackadder).
Arya is no longer a sheep, or a mouse. She is the ghost in Harrenhal.
Although in reality, Jaqen is.
Gore-o-meter
Plenty of people seem to be dying and being tortured and raped and
stuff. There's a lot of psychological gear going on. It's all very
gritty but not very bloody. I'll give it one gobbet of blood out of
five, and three-and-a-half buckets of grit out of five. This is
related to the sex-o-meter, I suppose, in which case I give one nibble
out of five, and three-and-a-half gritbuckets. But it was a big
nibble, more of a gnaw, and the buckets were really more your sort of
pail or miniature office-desk dustbin sort of thing.
Laff-o-meter
Some slapstick points for Hot Pie being hit with wooden spoons for the
crime of fumbling a tart. Perhaps our first mention of Lord Tywin
shitting gold. The side-splitting Chiswyck Comedy Hour. I'll give it
... oh what the heck, I'm feeling generous. Zero pantsfulls of
whitewash out of five.
Points for discussion
- Tywin wants to restore Harrenhal and make it his new stronghold.
This to me sounds like bulldust. Would Tywin dump Casterly Rock on
some lesser relative? I don't think he would pay much attention to the
ghost stories, but would he really want to put effort into such an
ill-fated venture? Besides, wouldn't he be aware of the assorted plans
for Harrenhal? He was upset that it had been offered to Slynt, but
what's his game here?
- Harrenhal's neglected towers are infested with giant rats. The
Whents used this as their sigil. I'm not sure what there is to discuss
here, but it's amusing. So surprise me with something.
- Arya isn't scared of ghost stories. This is another of those things
that might give you pause, if you were the type to think Arya
unnaturally cool and collected for somebody her age. But I suppose
this all links back to her being more Stark than Tully, and more
ferocious than simpering.
- Incidentally, the cracks in the Wailing Tower are from dragonfire.
Just, in fact, from the reflected heat of the dragonfire that melted
the top of Kingspyre Tower. Damn that's hot. That's not just
wildfire-hot, that's damn close to nuclear.
- Dondarrion Deathcount: A fat archer reports that the Bloody Mummers
killed him. Lorch killed him at Rushing Falls. The Mountain's killed
him twice.
- The Bloody Mummers (uh, I mean the Brave Companions) are one of the
cooler bunch of warriors I've read about in a fantasy series. The
septon and the Maester sound fun, and the coins Vargo Hoat wears ...
it's all quite neat.
- Captives include a tubby northman with a silver-and-sapphire trident
clasp on his cloak, and another with a black cloak patterned with
white suns. Arya reflects that Sansa would have known who they were,
but she doesn't. This is an interesting point, at which Sansa's
relative strengths are mentioned by somebody else. Pity nobody ever
seems to tell Sansa. Anyway, who are these guys?
- "Father had always said that most sellswords would betray anyone for
enough gold." Ah, spoken like a true Stark.
- Speaking of Arya's father, Tywin reminds her of him. She thinks
there's just something about a Lord's face, but there does seem a lot
in their characters that are the same. They are both quiet, and quite
merciless. Tywin is a bit more of a hypocrite and has a bit less
nobility, I think.
- Jaqen H'ghar smells of soap and has scented his hair. Does this make
him evil according to Wolfspawn's Holy Alignment Test (WHAT)? Martin
hates women and all things sweet-smelling, so Jaqen must be a bad guy.
WHAT has spoken.
- The Red God seems to have a pretty weird idea of balance and
equalisation. A girl throws an axe to a guy so he and two convicted
felons can escape from a burning wagon, and the guy then is allowed to
offer her three professional hits free of charge, on anybody in the
world? This is a very wacky rule and I suspect Jaqen just made it up
as part of a test to see what she'd do. Incidentally, knowing as I did
that all jokes and parables that have three stages (the man with three
sons, the girl with the three bowls of porridge, the guy who promises
to kill three people free of charge) always end on an unexpected or
clever note, I was pretty sure even at this stage that the last name
Arya was going to whisper would be Jaqen's. This is because I am very
old and clever and have a great job and sex a lot.
Just FYI.
C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.
- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
Peter Wright
> This is a Chapter of the Week (CHOW) post, part of alt.fan.grrm's
> coordinated re-read of ASoIaF. For a list of assigned chapters and
> links to previous CHOW threads see:
> To volunteer to lead a chapter thread email trades...@hotmail.com.
> Arya VII, or It's Jaqen H'ghar, H'ghoming to H'ghill me!
Agggghgh!
*runs away*
*comes back*
> Meanwhile, in Harrenhal, our intrepid horseface
Neigh.
> is having a wonderful time. We learn that Harren the Black's names
> for the forbidding collection of towers are long-lost to history,
> and they are now known as the Tower of Dread, the Widow's Tower, the
> Wailing Tower, the Tower of Ghosts, and Kingspyre Tower. The sixth
> tower, the Nice Cup of Tea Tower, had long since collapsed.
:-)
> The huge keep, castle or whatever it is was once under the charge of
> Lady Whent, but she'd been run off and the workers she'd left behind
> weren't enough to care for all Tywin's lads, hence the slave
> collection from nearby towns.
Mmmm, slave collection.
> She's more scared of the tinpot tyrant Weese and his nasty dog. It
> only took Weese three days to get himself onto Arya's Kill List,
> along with Dunsen, Chiswyck, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, the
> Tickler (Kitzler), the Hound, the Mountain, Amory Lorch, Ilyn Payne,
> Meryn Trant, Joffrey and Cersei. It's beginning to get to the point
> where it would be easier, in fact, for Arya to have a Not Kill List.
*laugh*
Disturbingly true.
> Harrenhal is big. Three times bigger than Winterfell, with a
> twenty-acre godswood, stables for a thousand horses, and so on.
'Ol King Harren must have been one wealthy sucker.
> Then Ser Amory Lorch returns from his roving, with somewhat less men
> than he'd started out with but three notable additions to his team:
> Rorge, Biter, and our wacky-haired pal, Jaqen H'ghar. That night,
> even though she was bleeding from work and near collapse from
> exhaustion, she still calls out her Kill List. She wonders whether
> she should add her friends from the wagon, but decides to just leave
> them in the Kill Pending Subfolder.
I'm now visualising her using Microsoft Outlook to manage these
folders.... and worrying about folder corruption issues.
Backup, Arya, backups!
> Jaqen recognised her;
Sneaky recognising bastard.
> he arrives in the middle of the night and talks to her. He tells her
> that the Red God has his due, and only death may pay for life. He
> tells her that he's going to bump off three people of her choice,
> and all she needs to do is whisper their names to him.
Mmmm, dead bodies.
> The next morning she thinks about it, but doesn't want to trust
> Jaqen.
[ ... ]
> Apparently the punchline was "Gregor asked for change and her father
> gave it to him", which was a very funny punchline indeed and earned
> Chiswyck a well-enough-deserved number one place in the new
> Arya-Jaqen Shared Kill Folder (allowed maximum content: 3).
I knew there was a reason for using a true groupware server.
> She whispers Chiswyck's name to Jaqen a few days later, and Chiswyck
> mysteriously accidentally brutally falls off a walkway and smashes
> himself to pieces while walking in his sleep (nod of respect to
> Mister Blackadder).
"Nice army you've got 'ere.... wouldn't want anything to, y'know,
_'appen_ to it, would you?"
> Arya is no longer a sheep, or a mouse. She is the ghost in
> Harrenhal.
>
> Although in reality, Jaqen is.
She is the Ghost Controller.
She sees dead people.
Well, she sees people, then arranges for them to become dead people.
Yay Arya. :)
> Gore-o-meter
> Plenty of people seem to be dying and being tortured and raped and
> stuff.
Mmmm. Stuff.
[ ... ]
> Laff-o-meter
> Some slapstick points for Hot Pie being hit with wooden spoons for
> the crime of fumbling a tart.
*grin*
I never noticed that before. That is funny.
> The side-splitting Chiswyck Comedy Hour.
"Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all..... " *wheeEEE SPLATcrunch*
*woof* *gnaw gnaw*
> I'll give it ... oh what the heck, I'm feeling generous. Zero
> pantsfulls of whitewash out of five.
Not even half a clown nose?
> Points for discussion
> - Tywin wants to restore Harrenhal and make it his new stronghold.
> This to me sounds like bulldust. Would Tywin dump Casterly Rock on
> some lesser relative?
Well, making it a stronghold doesn't necessarily mean anything other
than using it as a key army-storage-unit.
Harrenhal is one of the most central points in Westeros. Location,
location, location. It's near to everything that matters.
> I don't think he would pay much attention to the ghost stories, but
> would he really want to put effort into such an ill-fated venture?
How much effort _is_ it, really?
It's being cleared up a _bit_, yeah, but that's what slaves are for.
He's not expending any actual cash to rebuild towers or anything like
that.
> Besides, wouldn't he be aware of the assorted plans for Harrenhal?
> He was upset that it had been offered to Slynt, but what's his game
> here?
> - Harrenhal's neglected towers are infested with giant rats. The
> Whents used this as their sigil. I'm not sure what there is to
> discuss here, but it's amusing. So surprise me with something.
They had _rats_ on their sigil??
I'll have to check this, that's quite strange.
> - Arya isn't scared of ghost stories. This is another of those things
[ snip extensive notes ]
> [ ... ] I was pretty sure even at this stage that the last name Arya
> was going to whisper would be Jaqen's. This is because I am very old
> and clever and have a great job and sex a lot.
You clever chap.
> Just FYI.
:)
> C&J
Very nice job. Your notes were so extensive I was scared away from
making a more content-oriented response. With a bit of luck I might
think of something intelligent to say later.
All right, a lot of luck.
Pete.
--
http://akira.apana.org.au/~pete/
Vote Cthulhu in 2004!
When you're tired of choosing the lesser of two evils!
Darren George
> > would he really want to put effort into such an ill-fated venture?
>
> How much effort _is_ it, really?
>
> It's being cleared up a _bit_, yeah, but that's what slaves are for.
> He's not expending any actual cash to rebuild towers or anything like
> that.
You've got to pick up the slaves, feed them, pay the people to whip them
(people who could be used to fight battles and stuff), etc.- slave labour
isn't free.
Korbinian Abenthum
> - Harrenhal's neglected towers are infested with giant rats. The
> Whents used this as their sigil. I'm not sure what there is to discuss
> here, but it's amusing. So surprise me with something.
|
:) It says: v
| [...] the topmost story was infested with nests of the huge black bats
| that House Whent had used for its sigil, and there were rats in the
| cellars as well
> - Jaqen H'ghar smells of soap and has scented his hair. Does this make
> him evil according to Wolfspawn's Holy Alignment Test (WHAT)? Martin
> hates women and all things sweet-smelling, so Jaqen must be a bad guy.
> WHAT has spoken.
lol
> - The Red God seems to have a pretty weird idea of balance and
> equalisation. A girl throws an axe to a guy so he and two convicted
> felons can escape from a burning wagon, and the guy then is allowed to
> offer her three professional hits free of charge, on anybody in the
> world?
Hmm, that's pretty interesting anyway that the Faceless Men (or at least
this one) believe in R'hllor.
Spoiler from the first ARYA-chapter of AFfC (Rot-13 again ;P):
Jura Neln vf jnaqrevat nebhaq va gur snpryrff-crbcyr-unyy, gurer ner ybgf
bs jrveq fgnghrf gurer. V nyjnlf gbbx gurz gb or fgnghrf bs qvssreag tbqf?
Jaquen apparently believes in the Red God, and him demanding compensation
for the three surviving people is not really increasing my trust in him (or
Melisandre).
> This is a very wacky rule and I suspect Jaqen just made it up
> as part of a test to see what she'd do.
Might be just that, of course.
Larry Caldwell
janica...@kolumbus.finland (Chucky & Janica) says...
> It's all very
> gritty but not very bloody. I'll give it one gobbet of blood out of
> five, and three-and-a-half buckets of grit out of five.
I thought grit came in scoops. Maybe I just like saying scoop. Scoop.
> Points for discussion
>
> - Tywin wants to restore Harrenhal and make it his new stronghold.
> This to me sounds like bulldust. Would Tywin dump Casterly Rock on
> some lesser relative?
Because Lannisters shit gold, and Harren was richer than Tywin?
> I don't think he would pay much attention to the
> ghost stories, but would he really want to put effort into such an
> ill-fated venture? Besides, wouldn't he be aware of the assorted plans
> for Harrenhal? He was upset that it had been offered to Slynt, but
> what's his game here?
> - Incidentally, the cracks in the Wailing Tower are from dragonfire.
> Just, in fact, from the reflected heat of the dragonfire that melted
> the top of Kingspyre Tower. Damn that's hot. That's not just
> wildfire-hot, that's damn close to nuclear.
Damned good point. Just what is dragonfire made of? Do they spit
thermite? That's the only thing I know that is hot enough to melt stone
on just a brief contact. Carbon/oxygen will do it, but a dragon would
have to sit there and puff for a few days. If dragonfire is that hot,
I'm thinking that chemical reactions can't explain the heat, and nothing
explains why dragons don't incinerate their own nostrils. I sure
wouldn't want to be riding a dragon when it melted a tower. That much
radiant surface would barbecue.
> - Dondarrion Deathcount: A fat archer reports that the Bloody Mummers
> killed him. Lorch killed him at Rushing Falls. The Mountain's killed
> him twice.
Ayup. All that resurrection makes body accounting a dynamic process,
all right. The body count goes up, the body count goes down. Huff,
puff, wheeze.
> - Captives include a tubby northman with a silver-and-sapphire trident
> clasp on his cloak, and another with a black cloak patterned with
> white suns. Arya reflects that Sansa would have known who they were,
> but she doesn't. This is an interesting point, at which Sansa's
> relative strengths are mentioned by somebody else. Pity nobody ever
> seems to tell Sansa. Anyway, who are these guys?
Robb is King of the Trident. I don't remember that the specific person
is ever identified. The white sun pattern is a mystery to me.
> - Jaqen H'ghar smells of soap and has scented his hair. Does this make
> him evil according to Wolfspawn's Holy Alignment Test (WHAT)? Martin
> hates women and all things sweet-smelling, so Jaqen must be a bad guy.
> WHAT has spoken.
He is a furriner, with funny furrin' ways. There are obviously more
civilized places in the world than Westeros.
> - The Red God seems to have a pretty weird idea of balance and
> equalisation. A girl throws an axe to a guy so he and two convicted
> felons can escape from a burning wagon, and the guy then is allowed to
> offer her three professional hits free of charge, on anybody in the
> world? This is a very wacky rule and I suspect Jaqen just made it up
> as part of a test to see what she'd do. Incidentally, knowing as I did
> that all jokes and parables that have three stages (the man with three
> sons, the girl with the three bowls of porridge, the guy who promises
> to kill three people free of charge) always end on an unexpected or
> clever note, I was pretty sure even at this stage that the last name
> Arya was going to whisper would be Jaqen's. This is because I am very
> old and clever and have a great job and sex a lot.
Aw, you spoiled it! You didn't tell me CHoWs had spoilers!
The three deaths were obviously a retcon to shrink Arya's killfile. The
list was getting too long. Kill three, bump a couple off elsewhere; the
girl will get more sleep and the readers will get less.
Richard Taylor
> - Arya isn't scared of ghost stories. This is another of those things
> that might give you pause, if you were the type to think Arya
> unnaturally cool and collected for somebody her age. But I suppose
> this all links back to her being more Stark than Tully, and more
> ferocious than simpering.
I figure that in her place, there are just two ways to go. You can
either quiver in a corner and resign yourself to eventual death, or you
can grit your teeth and do the job that's in front of you. She seems to
know this, and she knows damn well that she's not going to take the
first choice.
I find this a little teeny bit of a stretch in someone of her age, but I
enjoy her chapters, so I'm not going to complain too loudly.
> - Incidentally, the cracks in the Wailing Tower are from dragonfire.
> Just, in fact, from the reflected heat of the dragonfire that melted
> the top of Kingspyre Tower. Damn that's hot. That's not just
> wildfire-hot, that's damn close to nuclear.
Good point, that man. This is the first time I can recall that we get a
solid answer to the question "What the hell /can/ dragonfire really do?"
If reflected dragonfire can crack stone, and direct can melt it, then
anyone with dragons, when nobody else has any should be able,
theoretically of course, to rule the world.
It's going to be interesting to see what sort of a resistance the rest
of Westeros can mount against Dany's three dragons. No armor or
buildings should be able to stand for long against that sort of heat
>
> - Dondarrion Deathcount: A fat archer reports that the Bloody Mummers
> killed him. Lorch killed him at Rushing Falls. The Mountain's killed
> him twice.
>
> - The Bloody Mummers (uh, I mean the Brave Companions) are one of the
> cooler bunch of warriors I've read about in a fantasy series. The
> septon and the Maester sound fun, and the coins Vargo Hoat wears ...
> it's all quite neat.
Yeah, they are very colourful. Normally you'd expect a group like this
to be the 'heroes' of a piece of fiction, but here they are just part of
the ensemble of characters.
> - "Father had always said that most sellswords would betray anyone for
> enough gold." Ah, spoken like a true Stark.
Probably true enough, for all of the cynicism. Not many mercenaries
would stay bought if you offered them double their original fee. What
would be the point in that, for them?
> - Jaqen H'ghar smells of soap and has scented his hair. Does this make
> him evil according to Wolfspawn's Holy Alignment Test (WHAT)? Martin
> hates women and all things sweet-smelling, so Jaqen must be a bad guy.
> WHAT has spoken.
Naturally so. Besides, he must be evil, listen to that music!
> - The Red God seems to have a pretty weird idea of balance and
> equalisation. A girl throws an axe to a guy so he and two convicted
> felons can escape from a burning wagon, and the guy then is allowed to
> offer her three professional hits free of charge, on anybody in the
> world? This is a very wacky rule and I suspect Jaqen just made it up
> as part of a test to see what she'd do. Incidentally, knowing as I did
> that all jokes and parables that have three stages (the man with three
> sons, the girl with the three bowls of porridge, the guy who promises
> to kill three people free of charge) always end on an unexpected or
> clever note, I was pretty sure even at this stage that the last name
> Arya was going to whisper would be Jaqen's. This is because I am very
> old and clever and have a great job and sex a lot.
However contrived, though, it's one of my favourite bits. I love Jaqen
and I'd like to see more characters from his part of the world. You
might be right that Jaqen made up the 'rules' - perhaps his code of
honour calls for an 'equvalent favour' and he just decided from his own
judgement what was required. We don't have the benefit of his POV, so we
can't know what he was thinking. It was a fun chapter, though, and one
of my favourites.
--
"Speaking of valid debates, it seems to me that there's an inverse
power-to-cleavage ratio among Aes Sedai." - Frank van Schie (r.a.s.w.rj)
Richard Taylor
> In article <e1h631ltv01cj0fc2...@4ax.com>,
> janica...@kolumbus.finland (Chucky & Janica) says...
>
>>- Incidentally, the cracks in the Wailing Tower are from dragonfire.
>>Just, in fact, from the reflected heat of the dragonfire that melted
>>the top of Kingspyre Tower. Damn that's hot. That's not just
>>wildfire-hot, that's damn close to nuclear.
>
>
> Damned good point. Just what is dragonfire made of? Do they spit
> thermite? That's the only thing I know that is hot enough to melt stone
> on just a brief contact. Carbon/oxygen will do it, but a dragon would
> have to sit there and puff for a few days. If dragonfire is that hot,
> I'm thinking that chemical reactions can't explain the heat, and nothing
> explains why dragons don't incinerate their own nostrils. I sure
> wouldn't want to be riding a dragon when it melted a tower. That much
> radiant surface would barbecue.
For myself, I'm not going to be to worried about physics concerns like
that. You raise an interesting point, and I don't deny it, but for me,
Dragonfire has the properties and effects that Martin says it has, and I
can gloss over the small details, fairly comfortably.
Elio M. Garcia Jr.
> They had _rats_ on their sigil??
>
> I'll have to check this, that's quite strange.
Bats, actually, not rats. A typo, I assume. :)
--
[Upon a Dzurlord learning of the murder of a critic by a painter]
"And it was well done, too. I'd have done the same, only-"
"Yes?"
"I don't paint." (Steven Brust, _The Phoenix Guards_)
Elio M. Garcia Jr.
> Chucky & Janica wrote:
>
>> - Harrenhal's neglected towers are infested with giant rats. The
>> Whents used this as their sigil. I'm not sure what there is to discuss
>> here, but it's amusing. So surprise me with something.
> |
> :) It says: v
>| [...] the topmost story was infested with nests of the huge black bats
>| that House Whent had used for its sigil, and there were rats in the
>| cellars as well
>
>> - Jaqen H'ghar smells of soap and has scented his hair. Does this make
>> him evil according to Wolfspawn's Holy Alignment Test (WHAT)? Martin
>> hates women and all things sweet-smelling, so Jaqen must be a bad guy.
>> WHAT has spoken.
>
> lol
>
>> - The Red God seems to have a pretty weird idea of balance and
>> equalisation. A girl throws an axe to a guy so he and two convicted
>> felons can escape from a burning wagon, and the guy then is allowed to
>> offer her three professional hits free of charge, on anybody in the
>> world?
>
> Hmm, that's pretty interesting anyway that the Faceless Men (or at least
> this one) believe in R'hllor.
I don't take this to mean that he believes in R'hllor specifically. Since
R'hllor is the God of Fire, and since they were saved from burning alive,
he seems to feel that R'hllor is the "god" (see spoilery stuff later) most
directly affected by Arya's intervention. He'll kill three in R'hllor's
name to make up for not having himself and his two fellow criminals.
> Spoiler from the first ARYA-chapter of AFfC (Rot-13 again ;P):
Gur Snpryrff Zra oryvrir va Ur bs Znal Snprf -- nyy tbqf ner fvzcyl n
snpr, be snprg, bs gur Znal-Snprq tbq. Fb Wndra oryvrirf va E'uyybe, whfg
nf zhpu nf ur oryvrirf va gur Qebjarq Tbq be gur Frira.
> Might be just that, of course.
I'm not sure it's a rule of their order, but I imagine that even among the
Faceless Men there are differing interpretations regarding things like
that.
Larry Caldwell
(Richard Taylor) says...
> However contrived, though, it's one of my favourite bits. I love Jaqen
> and I'd like to see more characters from his part of the world.
You will probably get your wish. When last seen, Arya was taking ship
for that part of the world.
Elio M. Garcia Jr.
> Robb is King of the Trident. I don't remember that the specific person
> is ever identified. The white sun pattern is a mystery to me.
The trident is for House Manderly, whose sigil is a merman wielding a
trident. It's Ser Wylis Manderly, heir to White Harbor.
The sunburst is for Karstark, specifically Harrion Karstark, heir to
Karhold. Where he's gotten to later in the series is actually a
somewhat-interesting question.
Richard Boye'
>
> Chucky & Janica <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote:
> > Arya VII, or It's Jaqen H'ghar, H'ghoming to H'ghill me!
>
> > Meanwhile, in Harrenhal, our intrepid horseface
>
> Neigh.
Hay! Stop that.
> > Harrenhal is big. Three times bigger than Winterfell, with a
> > twenty-acre godswood, stables for a thousand horses, and so on.
>
> 'Ol King Harren must have been one wealthy sucker.
He also denuded the neighoring land of timber, stone and labor. Then he
died.
> > - Harrenhal's neglected towers are infested with giant rats. The
> > Whents used this as their sigil. I'm not sure what there is to
> > discuss here, but it's amusing. So surprise me with something.
>
> They had _rats_ on their sigil??
>
> I'll have to check this, that's quite strange.
_Bats_. They have _bats_.
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
Typing into the Void: rmb...@gmail.com
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/books/blogger.html
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound."
Richard Boye'
>
> This is a Chapter of the Week (CHOW) post, part of alt.fan.grrm's
> coordinated re-read of ASoIaF. For a list of assigned chapters and
> links to previous CHOW threads see:
>
> http://flooble.net/chow/
>
> To volunteer to lead a chapter thread email trades...@hotmail.com.
>
> Arya VII, or It's Jaqen H'ghar, H'ghoming to H'ghill me!
Nice job, really.
> Arya is Weese's messenger-girl, and various assistant. But she's
> mainly a cleaner, on Weese's Harrenhal Restoration Team. She doesn't
> believe the ghost stories, and knows the Wailing Tower only wails
> because of the wind in its cracks. She's more scared of the tinpot
> tyrant Weese and his nasty dog. It only took Weese three days to get
> himself onto Arya's Kill List, along with Dunsen, Chiswyck, Polliver,
> Raff the Sweetling, the Tickler (Kitzler), the Hound, the Mountain,
> Amory Lorch, Ilyn Payne, Meryn Trant, Joffrey and Cersei. It's
> beginning to get to the point where it would be easier, in fact, for
> Arya to have a Not Kill List.
Nice.
> - Harrenhal's neglected towers are infested with giant rats. The
> Whents used this as their sigil. I'm not sure what there is to discuss
> here, but it's amusing. So surprise me with something.
Bats.
> - The Bloody Mummers (uh, I mean the Brave Companions) are one of the
> cooler bunch of warriors I've read about in a fantasy series. The
> septon and the Maester sound fun, and the coins Vargo Hoat wears ...
> it's all quite neat.
>
> - Captives include a tubby northman with a silver-and-sapphire trident
> clasp on his cloak, and another with a black cloak patterned with
> white suns. Arya reflects that Sansa would have known who they were,
> but she doesn't. This is an interesting point, at which Sansa's
> relative strengths are mentioned by somebody else. Pity nobody ever
> seems to tell Sansa. Anyway, who are these guys?
The white sun on black is Karstark, the "Sun of Winter." The
chubbsy-ubsy with the trident is probably a Manderly - their sigil is a
merman clutching a tident, and the Manderly family is known to be fat.
Richard Taylor
> In article <39h3nuF...@individual.net>, sol...@fastmail.fm
> (Richard Taylor) says...
>
>
>>However contrived, though, it's one of my favourite bits. I love Jaqen
>>and I'd like to see more characters from his part of the world.
>
>
> You will probably get your wish. When last seen, Arya was taking ship
> for that part of the world.
>
Good point. I've not re-read ASoS since the second half came out in
paperback and I had forgotten this detail. Looking forward to it!
Eoghan Scully
>
> Arya VII, or It's Jaqen H'ghar, H'ghoming to H'ghill me!
<snip>
> the workers she'd
> left behind weren't enough to care for all Tywin's lads, hence the
> slave collection from nearby towns.
<nelson> Ha, ha! Slave collection! </nelson>
> Points for discussion
>
> - Tywin wants to restore Harrenhal and make it his new stronghold.
> This to me sounds like bulldust. Would Tywin dump Casterly Rock on
> some lesser relative?
I think that Tywin would keep Casterly Rock and dump Harrenhal on some
loyal lackey. His brother Kevan perhaps. He would then station the bulk
of his army at Harrenhal where, as Pete says, it would be centrally
located and able to strike anywhere in Westeros quickly.
Probably the central location is one reason Harren had the place built.
I don't think that the Ironborn were ever very numerous so keeping
Harrenhal as a base, Harren could raid and pillage each part of Westeros
in turn, knowing that his rear was secure thanks to the humongoid
castle.
> - Harrenhal's neglected towers are infested with giant rats. The
> Whents used this as their sigil. I'm not sure what there is to discuss
> here, but it's amusing. So surprise me with something.
It's bats.
Maybe the Whents are really vampires and in AFFC Ser Oswell Whent of the
Kingsguard will return from the dead to tell us all what really happened
at the ToJ and who Jon's parents are. Then Sansa the vampire slayer will
stake him.
Surprised?
> - Arya isn't scared of ghost stories. This is another of those things
> that might give you pause, if you were the type to think Arya
> unnaturally cool and collected for somebody her age. But I suppose
> this all links back to her being more Stark than Tully, and more
> ferocious than simpering.
Have a look at some of the child soldiers in Africa for examples of
ferocious children.
> - Incidentally, the cracks in the Wailing Tower are from dragonfire.
> Just, in fact, from the reflected heat of the dragonfire that melted
> the top of Kingspyre Tower. Damn that's hot. That's not just
> wildfire-hot, that's damn close to nuclear.
Dragons breathe pure chucktonite. It is known.
> - The Bloody Mummers (uh, I mean the Brave Companions) are one of the
> cooler bunch of warriors I've read about in a fantasy series. The
> septon and the Maester sound fun, and the coins Vargo Hoat wears ...
> it's all quite neat.
Yeah, I like the way GRRM creates these cool and interesting characters
and then mostly ignores them. Makes it more realistic. Just because
someone is cool or unusual doesn't mean he should have a central role in
history.
> - Captives include a tubby northman with a silver-and-sapphire trident
> clasp on his cloak, and another with a black cloak patterned with
> white suns. Arya reflects that Sansa would have known who they were,
> but she doesn't. This is an interesting point, at which Sansa's
> relative strengths are mentioned by somebody else.
It's a retcon from A Dance with Dragons. When Sansa will suddenly
recognise that the vampire she is about to kill is actually a Manderly
and thus her liegeman. Future GRRM travelled back in time and inserted
this comment in ACoK to fix his earlier self's mistake. In the original
timeline Arya reflected on what a dumbass Sansa was.
> - Speaking of Arya's father, Tywin reminds her of him. She thinks
> there's just something about a Lord's face, but there does seem a lot
> in their characters that are the same. They are both quiet, and quite
> merciless. Tywin is a bit more of a hypocrite and has a bit less
> nobility, I think.
I think that their public personas are quite similar, probably a kind of
convergent evolution on a successful strategy for ruling in Westeros.
Their inner characters are different though, as we see from Ned's povs
and from Tywin's relationship to Tyrion.
> - Jaqen H'ghar smells of soap and has scented his hair. Does this make
> him evil according to Wolfspawn's Holy Alignment Test (WHAT)? Martin
> hates women and all things sweet-smelling, so Jaqen must be a bad guy.
> WHAT has spoken.
No, no, Who has spoken. What is missing.
> - The Red God seems to have a pretty weird idea of balance and
> equalisation. A girl throws an axe to a guy so he and two convicted
> felons can escape from a burning wagon, and the guy then is allowed to
> offer her three professional hits free of charge, on anybody in the
> world? This is a very wacky rule and I suspect Jaqen just made it up
> as part of a test to see what she'd do.
I like this idea. Makes sense in light of Jaqen giving her the coin at
the end. He must have spotted something in Arya and decided to
investigate.
Eoghan Scully
> Chucky & Janica wrote:
>
> It's going to be interesting to see what sort of a resistance the rest
> of Westeros can mount against Dany's three dragons. No armor or
> buildings should be able to stand for long against that sort of heat
A telling point is going to be how many arrows it takes to kill a dragon
and at what range they become effective. A dead dragon can't incinerate
anyone. If Dany sends her dragons into battle before their hides are
thick enough she could be in for a nasty surprise herself.
> > - "Father had always said that most sellswords would betray anyone for
> > enough gold." Ah, spoken like a true Stark.
>
> Probably true enough, for all of the cynicism. Not many mercenaries
> would stay bought if you offered them double their original fee. What
> would be the point in that, for them?
Reputation. If you renege on a contract you can expect to never be hired
again, in that part of the world at least. The other side would have to
offer enough money to retire on, or else be obviously going to win so
that the fee offered to the mercenaries is, in effect, their lives.
Richard Taylor
> Richard Taylor <sol...@fastmail.fm> wrote...
>
>>Chucky & Janica wrote:
>>
>>It's going to be interesting to see what sort of a resistance the rest
>>of Westeros can mount against Dany's three dragons. No armor or
>>buildings should be able to stand for long against that sort of heat
>
>
> A telling point is going to be how many arrows it takes to kill a dragon
> and at what range they become effective. A dead dragon can't incinerate
> anyone. If Dany sends her dragons into battle before their hides are
> thick enough she could be in for a nasty surprise herself.
>
>
It's a point worth considering. We also don't know how much range the
dragons themselves have. Something else worth considering, is that in
her first few battles, Dany will have the element of surprise.
I think that Dany is bound to lose somehow or other. She's not been
painted as the heroine of this story. She's part of the rich tapestry of
Martin's world, but in the end, I doubt that she'll ever sit on the throne.
>>>- "Father had always said that most sellswords would betray anyone for
>>>enough gold." Ah, spoken like a true Stark.
>>
>>Probably true enough, for all of the cynicism. Not many mercenaries
>>would stay bought if you offered them double their original fee. What
>>would be the point in that, for them?
>
>
> Reputation. If you renege on a contract you can expect to never be hired
> again, in that part of the world at least. The other side would have to
> offer enough money to retire on, or else be obviously going to win so
> that the fee offered to the mercenaries is, in effect, their lives.
>
Point. I grudgingly grant it, but I still think there is something so
inherently untrustworthy about the concept of someone fighting for money
that reputation is a laughable concept.
Korbinian Abenthum
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 21:48:42 +0100, Korbinian Abenthum wrote:
>> Hmm, that's pretty interesting anyway that the Faceless Men (or at least
>> this one) believe in R'hllor.
> I don't take this to mean that he believes in R'hllor specifically.
[...]
Minor spoilers from AFfC-Arya-I:
> Gur Snpryrff Zra oryvrir va Ur bs Znal Snprf -- nyy tbqf ner fvzcyl n
> snpr, be snprg, bs gur Znal-Snprq tbq. Fb Wndra oryvrirf va E'uyybe, whfg
> nf zhpu nf ur oryvrirf va gur Qebjarq Tbq be gur Frira.
Uzz, qb lbh xabj gung be fher? Nsgre erernqvat cneg bs fnvq puncgre, V ng
yrnfg erzrzore gur Znal-Snprq Tbq, ohg vf vg whfg n (ernfbanoyr, bs pbhefr)
qrqhpgvba sebz gur "Va Oennibf, zra jbefuvc nf gurl jvyy... ohg ng gur raq
bs rirel ebnq fgnaqf Uvz bs Znal Snprf, jnvgvat" gvqovg, be qb lbh unir
zber pbapergr vasbezngvba sebz bar bs gur bgure puncgref?
Larry Caldwell
(Richard Taylor) says...
> Point. I grudgingly grant it, but I still think there is something so
> inherently untrustworthy about the concept of someone fighting for money
> that reputation is a laughable concept.
I take it you are not a Gordon R. Dickson fan. I liked _Dorsai_. You
might also take a look at "Soldier of Fortune" magazine.
One of my oldest friends and earliest mentors was a Cree from eastern
Canada who found it necessary to get out of the country when he was 18.
He joined the French Foreign Legion, where he distinguished himself and
eventually rose to the rank of colonel. He was essentially a mercenary,
but the reputation of the Legion was very important.
Larry Caldwell
(Richard Taylor) says...
> For myself, I'm not going to be to worried about physics concerns like
> that. You raise an interesting point, and I don't deny it, but for me,
> Dragonfire has the properties and effects that Martin says it has, and I
> can gloss over the small details, fairly comfortably.
Chemistry, actually. I always thought dragons were creatures of magic,
closely related to the theurgy of Westeros. If Chucky still finds that
objectionable, I can get behind chucktonite as a solution. After all, I
thought Battle Crabs and Ginsu Beams were cool.
Richard Taylor
OK, so now I look stupid. Oh well, nothing new. Chemistry. Of course. I
just meant that if the mechanics of dragonfire mean that anyone riding
one would /technically/ be a krispy-kritter, then I feel I can safely
gloss over that fact without hurting my enjoyment of the books.
Richard Taylor
> In article <39hbr5F...@individual.net>, sol...@fastmail.fm
> (Richard Taylor) says...
>
>
>>Point. I grudgingly grant it, but I still think there is something so
>>inherently untrustworthy about the concept of someone fighting for money
>>that reputation is a laughable concept.
>
>
> I take it you are not a Gordon R. Dickson fan. I liked _Dorsai_. You
> might also take a look at "Soldier of Fortune" magazine.
>
> One of my oldest friends and earliest mentors was a Cree from eastern
> Canada who found it necessary to get out of the country when he was 18.
> He joined the French Foreign Legion, where he distinguished himself and
> eventually rose to the rank of colonel. He was essentially a mercenary,
> but the reputation of the Legion was very important.
I... suppose... that... /La Legion Etrangier/ counts as a mercenary
group, but they don't seem to fit into the same category in my head as a
common sellsword. It's more professional in my mind than the sort of
class of people we're talking about in the chapter.
I certainly didn't mean any sort of a slur against the Legion.
I'll cheerfully abandon the point, since it's not something that I'm
deeply attached to as an opinion.
I
Elio M. Garcia Jr.
> Uzz, qb lbh xabj gung be fher? Nsgre erernqvat cneg bs fnvq puncgre, V ng
> yrnfg erzrzore gur Znal-Snprq Tbq, ohg vf vg whfg n (ernfbanoyr, bs pbhefr)
> qrqhpgvba sebz gur "Va Oennibf, zra jbefuvc nf gurl jvyy... ohg ng gur raq
> bs rirel ebnq fgnaqf Uvz bs Znal Snprf, jnvgvat" gvqovg, be qb lbh unir
> zber pbapergr vasbezngvba sebz bar bs gur bgure puncgref?
Yeah. The second Arya chapter seems to make it pretty plain that the above
is the case jura vg qvfphffrf gur bevtvaf bs gur Snpryrff Zra. Vg'f fnvq
gur svefg Snpryrff Zna urneq fynirf jbexvat va gur zvarf bs Inylevn cenlvat
gb gurve znal tbqf, naq ur unq na rcvcunal bs fbzr fbeg gung yrq uvz gb
oryvrir gung nyy tbqf jrer fvzcyl bar tbq, gur Znal-Snprq Tbq.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Peter Wright
<pe...@flooble.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>> Arya VII, or It's Jaqen H'ghar, H'ghoming to H'ghill me!
>
>Agggghgh!
>
>*runs away*
>
>
>
>*comes back*
Hee hee. I was expecting a certain amount of struggling in wet
concrete.
>> is having a wonderful time. We learn that Harren the Black's names
>> for the forbidding collection of towers are long-lost to history,
>> and they are now known as the Tower of Dread, the Widow's Tower, the
>> Wailing Tower, the Tower of Ghosts, and Kingspyre Tower. The sixth
>> tower, the Nice Cup of Tea Tower, had long since collapsed.
>
>:-)
I'll make the next chapter's false point a bit more difficult.
>> Then Ser Amory Lorch returns from his roving, with somewhat less men
>> than he'd started out with but three notable additions to his team:
>> Rorge, Biter, and our wacky-haired pal, Jaqen H'ghar. That night,
>> even though she was bleeding from work and near collapse from
>> exhaustion, she still calls out her Kill List. She wonders whether
>> she should add her friends from the wagon, but decides to just leave
>> them in the Kill Pending Subfolder.
>
>I'm now visualising her using Microsoft Outlook to manage these
>folders.... and worrying about folder corruption issues.
>
>Backup, Arya, backups!
Hee hee, can you tell I've spent the first week of my new job playing
around with my desktop's Shared Files feature?
>> Some slapstick points for Hot Pie being hit with wooden spoons for
>> the crime of fumbling a tart.
>
>*grin*
>
>I never noticed that before. That is funny.
*whap*
Ouch.
*whock*
Hey.
*whack*
Listen, stop that.
>> I'll give it ... oh what the heck, I'm feeling generous. Zero
>> pantsfulls of whitewash out of five.
>
>Not even half a clown nose?
Not even a spinless bowtie.
>> - Tywin wants to restore Harrenhal and make it his new stronghold.
>> This to me sounds like bulldust. Would Tywin dump Casterly Rock on
>> some lesser relative?
>
>Well, making it a stronghold doesn't necessarily mean anything other
>than using it as a key army-storage-unit.
And he undeniably was going to some effort to get it all revamped and
ready for action. A lot of this might be related to his "unleashing
his monsters" on the riverlands, but Harrenhal is very cool.
>It's being cleared up a _bit_, yeah, but that's what slaves are for.
>He's not expending any actual cash to rebuild towers or anything like
>that.
This is true.
>> - Harrenhal's neglected towers are infested with giant rats. The
>> Whents used this as their sigil. I'm not sure what there is to
>> discuss here, but it's amusing. So surprise me with something.
>
>They had _rats_ on their sigil??
>
>I'll have to check this, that's quite strange.
It said so right there in the chapter I just CHOWed. The Whents took
the giant black rat and used it as their sigil. It's right there.
Although maybe it said "bat" and I mis-read. *confident*
>Very nice job. Your notes were so extensive I was scared away from
>making a more content-oriented response. With a bit of luck I might
>think of something intelligent to say later.
>
>All right, a lot of luck.
When in doubt, disagree with me.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called "Elio M. Garcia Jr."
<el...@tele2.se>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>> They had _rats_ on their sigil??
>>
>> I'll have to check this, that's quite strange.
>
> Bats, actually, not rats. A typo, I assume. :)
A mis-read. I was expecting nests of rats, since I didn't know bats
made nests, and there's a reference to nests, I think. But okay, it's
bats. Which is still a funny, Dracula-like thing to put on a sigil.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Korbinian Abenthum
<korb...@gmx.de>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>> - The Red God seems to have a pretty weird idea of balance and
>> equalisation. A girl throws an axe to a guy so he and two convicted
>> felons can escape from a burning wagon, and the guy then is allowed to
>> offer her three professional hits free of charge, on anybody in the
>> world?
>
>Hmm, that's pretty interesting anyway that the Faceless Men (or at least
>this one) believe in R'hllor.
>
>> This is a very wacky rule and I suspect Jaqen just made it up
>> as part of a test to see what she'd do.
>
>Might be just that, of course.
Makes more sense to me, but there might be other explanations.
Seems to me that the Faceless Men would kill a lot of guys if this
sort of thing was a general rule. What if a Faceless Man was on a ship
full of people, and somebody saved the ship from sinking?
"Right, so now the Red God is owed ... three hundred and twelve lives,
plus a few horses ... maybe we can do a bulk deal."
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called Larry Caldwell
<lar...@teleport.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>> - Incidentally, the cracks in the Wailing Tower are from dragonfire.
>> Just, in fact, from the reflected heat of the dragonfire that melted
>> the top of Kingspyre Tower. Damn that's hot. That's not just
>> wildfire-hot, that's damn close to nuclear.
>
>Damned good point. Just what is dragonfire made of? Do they spit
>thermite? That's the only thing I know that is hot enough to melt stone
>on just a brief contact. Carbon/oxygen will do it, but a dragon would
>have to sit there and puff for a few days. If dragonfire is that hot,
>I'm thinking that chemical reactions can't explain the heat, and nothing
>explains why dragons don't incinerate their own nostrils. I sure
>wouldn't want to be riding a dragon when it melted a tower. That much
>radiant surface would barbecue.
It reminds me of Pratchett's story, "Guards! Guards!". The dragon in
that was completely implausible, and only existed in a special region
of reality, where it didn't have to make sense. It could only be
summoned up by magic.
Like a chucktonite comet!
>> - The Red God seems to have a pretty weird idea of balance and
>> equalisation. A girl throws an axe to a guy so he and two convicted
>> felons can escape from a burning wagon, and the guy then is allowed to
>> offer her three professional hits free of charge, on anybody in the
>> world? This is a very wacky rule and I suspect Jaqen just made it up
>> as part of a test to see what she'd do. Incidentally, knowing as I did
>> that all jokes and parables that have three stages (the man with three
>> sons, the girl with the three bowls of porridge, the guy who promises
>> to kill three people free of charge) always end on an unexpected or
>> clever note, I was pretty sure even at this stage that the last name
>> Arya was going to whisper would be Jaqen's. This is because I am very
>> old and clever and have a great job and sex a lot.
>
>Aw, you spoiled it! You didn't tell me CHoWs had spoilers!
Har har. I live to spoil.
>The three deaths were obviously a retcon to shrink Arya's killfile. The
>list was getting too long. Kill three, bump a couple off elsewhere; the
>girl will get more sleep and the readers will get less.
Damn those retcons.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Richard Taylor
<sol...@fastmail.fm>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>> Damned good point. Just what is dragonfire made of? Do they spit
>> thermite? That's the only thing I know that is hot enough to melt stone
>> on just a brief contact. Carbon/oxygen will do it, but a dragon would
>> have to sit there and puff for a few days. If dragonfire is that hot,
>> I'm thinking that chemical reactions can't explain the heat, and nothing
>> explains why dragons don't incinerate their own nostrils. I sure
>> wouldn't want to be riding a dragon when it melted a tower. That much
>> radiant surface would barbecue.
>
>For myself, I'm not going to be to worried about physics concerns like
>that. You raise an interesting point, and I don't deny it, but for me,
>Dragonfire has the properties and effects that Martin says it has, and I
> can gloss over the small details, fairly comfortably.
I'm happy with that too. They're magical.
Daenerys's dragons puff and char things, but they're not melting stone
yet. It must be a maturity thing.
But it does call to mind something Pratchett once wrote. How likely is
a ten-ton animal managing to get itself airborne, and continue to be
able to fly forwards while spraying a jet of flame out of its mouth?
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called Larry Caldwell
<lar...@teleport.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>> For myself, I'm not going to be to worried about physics concerns like
>> that. You raise an interesting point, and I don't deny it, but for me,
>> Dragonfire has the properties and effects that Martin says it has, and I
>> can gloss over the small details, fairly comfortably.
>
>Chemistry, actually. I always thought dragons were creatures of magic,
>closely related to the theurgy of Westeros. If Chucky still finds that
>objectionable, I can get behind chucktonite as a solution. After all, I
>thought Battle Crabs and Ginsu Beams were cool.
You're misunderstanding my objection. I'm not looking for a scientific
explanation, because I have always said those were lame. I am looking
for people to say, "hey, that's inexplicable. Must be magic."
And perhaps, one or two of you, "that's chucktonite."
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Richard Taylor
<sol...@fastmail.fm>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>> - Arya isn't scared of ghost stories. This is another of those things
>> that might give you pause, if you were the type to think Arya
>> unnaturally cool and collected for somebody her age. But I suppose
>> this all links back to her being more Stark than Tully, and more
>> ferocious than simpering.
>
>I figure that in her place, there are just two ways to go. You can
>either quiver in a corner and resign yourself to eventual death, or you
>can grit your teeth and do the job that's in front of you. She seems to
>know this, and she knows damn well that she's not going to take the
>first choice.
>
>I find this a little teeny bit of a stretch in someone of her age, but I
>enjoy her chapters, so I'm not going to complain too loudly.
I wholeheartedly agree.
>> - Incidentally, the cracks in the Wailing Tower are from dragonfire.
>> Just, in fact, from the reflected heat of the dragonfire that melted
>> the top of Kingspyre Tower. Damn that's hot. That's not just
>> wildfire-hot, that's damn close to nuclear.
>
>Good point, that man. This is the first time I can recall that we get a
>solid answer to the question "What the hell /can/ dragonfire really do?"
>If reflected dragonfire can crack stone, and direct can melt it, then
>anyone with dragons, when nobody else has any should be able,
>theoretically of course, to rule the world.
*nod*
Explains why Aegon the Conqueror was such an ass-kicker and the King
in the North bowed down to the Targaryens.
>It's going to be interesting to see what sort of a resistance the rest
>of Westeros can mount against Dany's three dragons. No armor or
>buildings should be able to stand for long against that sort of heat
I'm looking forward to the Hound seeing them.
"Oh, FUCK THIS!"
>> - The Red God seems to have a pretty weird idea of balance and
>> equalisation. A girl throws an axe to a guy so he and two convicted
>> felons can escape from a burning wagon, and the guy then is allowed to
>> offer her three professional hits free of charge, on anybody in the
>> world? This is a very wacky rule and I suspect Jaqen just made it up
>> as part of a test to see what she'd do. Incidentally, knowing as I did
>> that all jokes and parables that have three stages (the man with three
>> sons, the girl with the three bowls of porridge, the guy who promises
>> to kill three people free of charge) always end on an unexpected or
>> clever note, I was pretty sure even at this stage that the last name
>> Arya was going to whisper would be Jaqen's. This is because I am very
>> old and clever and have a great job and sex a lot.
>
>However contrived, though, it's one of my favourite bits.
Mine too.
> I love Jaqen
>and I'd like to see more characters from his part of the world. You
>might be right that Jaqen made up the 'rules' - perhaps his code of
>honour calls for an 'equvalent favour' and he just decided from his own
>judgement what was required.
Yep. I can't shake the thought that maybe he had a set of rules about
such situations, and he decided to see what this resourceful little
girl would do.
Plus, Jaqen knew Syrio Forel. And he sees his work in Arya.
Right?
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called Richard Boye' <wa...@webspan.net>,
and they made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>> Arya VII, or It's Jaqen H'ghar, H'ghoming to H'ghill me!
>
>Nice job, really.
Thank you kindly.
>> - Harrenhal's neglected towers are infested with giant rats. The
>> Whents used this as their sigil. I'm not sure what there is to discuss
>> here, but it's amusing. So surprise me with something.
>
>Bats.
Hee hee, right. I just assumed rats, since there were unused cellars
and mention of nests. I've never heard of a bat nest.
>The white sun on black is Karstark, the "Sun of Winter." The
>chubbsy-ubsy with the trident is probably a Manderly - their sigil is a
>merman clutching a tident, and the Manderly family is known to be fat.
And therefore evil.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Eoghan Scully
<trades...@hotmail.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying
the following stuff:
>> - Tywin wants to restore Harrenhal and make it his new stronghold.
>> This to me sounds like bulldust. Would Tywin dump Casterly Rock on
>> some lesser relative?
>
>I think that Tywin would keep Casterly Rock and dump Harrenhal on some
>loyal lackey. His brother Kevan perhaps. He would then station the bulk
>of his army at Harrenhal where, as Pete says, it would be centrally
>located and able to strike anywhere in Westeros quickly.
I can agree with that. Tywin was upset about Harrenhal being given to
Slynt. It was the seat of kings, after all.
>> - Harrenhal's neglected towers are infested with giant rats. The
>> Whents used this as their sigil. I'm not sure what there is to discuss
>> here, but it's amusing. So surprise me with something.
>
>It's bats.
This *is* surprising.
>Maybe the Whents are really vampires and in AFFC Ser Oswell Whent of the
>Kingsguard will return from the dead to tell us all what really happened
>at the ToJ and who Jon's parents are. Then Sansa the vampire slayer will
>stake him.
>
>Surprised?
Very good. I almost blinked!
>> - Arya isn't scared of ghost stories. This is another of those things
>> that might give you pause, if you were the type to think Arya
>> unnaturally cool and collected for somebody her age. But I suppose
>> this all links back to her being more Stark than Tully, and more
>> ferocious than simpering.
>
>Have a look at some of the child soldiers in Africa for examples of
>ferocious children.
I don't know that I'd compare Arya to those. Especially since Arya is
essentially subject to the same upbringing as Sansa, and child
soldiers in Africa are generally kidnapped, drugged, tortured, and
forced to kill people at gunpoint. But your point is well made.
>Dragons breathe pure chucktonite. It is known.
I agree.
>> - Captives include a tubby northman with a silver-and-sapphire trident
>> clasp on his cloak, and another with a black cloak patterned with
>> white suns. Arya reflects that Sansa would have known who they were,
>> but she doesn't. This is an interesting point, at which Sansa's
>> relative strengths are mentioned by somebody else.
>
>It's a retcon from A Dance with Dragons. When Sansa will suddenly
>recognise that the vampire she is about to kill is actually a Manderly
>and thus her liegeman. Future GRRM travelled back in time and inserted
>this comment in ACoK to fix his earlier self's mistake. In the original
>timeline Arya reflected on what a dumbass Sansa was.
Bahahahahahahaha, you are a mean man.
>> - Speaking of Arya's father, Tywin reminds her of him. She thinks
>> there's just something about a Lord's face, but there does seem a lot
>> in their characters that are the same. They are both quiet, and quite
>> merciless. Tywin is a bit more of a hypocrite and has a bit less
>> nobility, I think.
>
>I think that their public personas are quite similar, probably a kind of
>convergent evolution on a successful strategy for ruling in Westeros.
>Their inner characters are different though, as we see from Ned's povs
>and from Tywin's relationship to Tyrion.
*nod*
Put on your Lord Face, Ned.
>> - Jaqen H'ghar smells of soap and has scented his hair. Does this make
>> him evil according to Wolfspawn's Holy Alignment Test (WHAT)? Martin
>> hates women and all things sweet-smelling, so Jaqen must be a bad guy.
>> WHAT has spoken.
>
>No, no, Who has spoken. What is missing.
No, you don't understand. What's the name of the test.[1]
>I like this idea. Makes sense in light of Jaqen giving her the coin at
>the end. He must have spotted something in Arya and decided to
>investigate.
I think so.
Obviously.
C&J
[1] Yeah yeah, Who's on first.
Richard Taylor
Well... It'd have to compensate by spraying a much bigger one out of its
ass. Equal and opposite forces, n'est pas?
Aaron F. Bourque
> You're misunderstanding my objection. I'm not looking for a
scientific
> explanation, because I have always said those were lame. I am looking
> for people to say, "hey, that's inexplicable. Must be magic."
>
> And perhaps, one or two of you, "that's chucktonite."
"That Chuck weighs a ton, a'ight."
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
Aaron F. Bourque
> Once upon a time - for example, Sat, 12 Mar 2005 21:03:15 +0000 -
> there was this guy, or something, called Richard Taylor
> <sol...@fastmail.fm>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
> following stuff:
<DRAGONS!>
> >It's going to be interesting to see what sort of a resistance the
rest
> >of Westeros can mount against Dany's three dragons. No armor or
> >buildings should be able to stand for long against that sort of heat
>
> I'm looking forward to the Hound seeing them.
>
> "Oh, FUCK THIS!"
Ah, you see, I think Clint--er, I mean, SANDOR, yeah, Sandor--is either
going to be involved in the "inadvertant rescue of Sansa" by the time
the dragons ever reach Westeros, or dead.
Although, I do admit, it'd be damn cool to see the Sandor thread, the
Sansa/Littlefinger thread, and the Danaerys/Tyrion thread all at
Harenhall at once.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; even if it's just "The Destruction of
Harenhall, mark II"
Velk
I get the feeling that Jaqen has no dedication to the red god or to
that rule, but was just staying in character as a.. what nationality
was he posing as again ?
Later when he is swearing oaths, he names the red god last and
grudgingly in a 'oh yeah him too' fashion.
Which does leave open the question of what he was up to..
Rob Wilson
>
> I'm happy with that too. They're magical.
>
> Daenerys's dragons puff and char things, but they're not melting stone
> yet. It must be a maturity thing.
>
Did you intentionally imply Puff the Magic Dragon?
--
Rob Wilson
Rob Wilson
> - Harrenhal's neglected towers are infested with giant rats. The
> Whents used this as their sigil. I'm not sure what there is to discuss
> here, but it's amusing. So surprise me with something.
>
Giant rats! Must be to allow for an ASoIaF-themed MMORPG. Harrenhal is
the newbie area.
oh... bats! Reminds me of something else entirely:
Monty Python's Flying Circus!
presents
From Episode 31: "The All-England Summerize Proust Competition"
Bounder: Anyway, you're interested in one of our adventure holidays, eh?
Tourist: Yes. I saw your advert in the bolour supplement.
Bounder: The what?
Tourist: The bolour supplement.
Bounder: The colour supplement?
Tourist: Yes. I'm sorry I can't say the letter 'B'.
Bounder: 'C'?
Tourist: Yes, that's right. It's all due to a trauma I suffered when I
was a spoolboy. I was attacked by a bat.
Bounder: A cat?
Tourist: No a bat.
--
Rob Wilson
Larry Caldwell
> Seems to me that the Faceless Men would kill a lot of guys if this
> sort of thing was a general rule. What if a Faceless Man was on a
ship
> full of people, and somebody saved the ship from sinking?
> "Right, so now the Red God is owed ... three hundred and twelve
lives,
> plus a few horses ... maybe we can do a bulk deal."
.
Wrong god. They weren't burning to death, they were drowning. The
Drowned God would be owed 112 lives. Since the Drowned God resurrects
all his followers, the Faceless could just cut to the chase and leave
everybody alone.
Of course, if the ship were on fire, it would present an interesting
theological quandary.
C&J
Herb Schaltegger
"Larry Caldwell" <lar...@teleport.com> wrote:
> Wrong god. They weren't burning to death, they were drowning. The
> Drowned God would be owed 112 lives. Since the Drowned God resurrects
> all his followers, the Faceless could just cut to the chase and leave
> everybody alone.
>
> Of course, if the ship were on fire, it would present an interesting
> theological quandary.
>
I'd enjoy it a great deal if Neil Gaiman did a version of "American
Gods" set in Westeros. Of course, that may well be where GRRM is
heading anyway . . . :-)
--
Herb Schaltegger, GPG Key ID: BBF6FC1C
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~Benjamin Franklin, 1759
<http://www.angryherb.net>
Darren George
> Harrenhal is the newbie area.
Well, there aren't any kobolds in Westeros.
> Tourist: Yes. I'm sorry I can't say the letter 'B'.
>
> Bounder: 'C'?
>
> Tourist: Yes, that's right. It's all due to a trauma I suffered when I
> was a spoolboy. I was attacked by a bat.
Well, can you say the letter 'K', then?
Ilya the Recusant
No.
But Wookie Breasts are everywhere.
Look at the money!
(Thanks Pete)
Ilya the Recusant
-----------------
"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Lobster
"Chucky & Janica" <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote in message
news:ks38315jmemk1alt8...@4ax.com...
> Once upon a time - for example, Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:55:15 GMT - there
> was this guy, or something, called Larry Caldwell
> <lar...@teleport.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
> following stuff:
>
> >> - Incidentally, the cracks in the Wailing Tower are from dragonfire.
> >> Just, in fact, from the reflected heat of the dragonfire that melted
> >> the top of Kingspyre Tower. Damn that's hot. That's not just
> >> wildfire-hot, that's damn close to nuclear.
> >
> >Damned good point. Just what is dragonfire made of? Do they spit
> >thermite? That's the only thing I know that is hot enough to melt stone
> >on just a brief contact. Carbon/oxygen will do it, but a dragon would
> >have to sit there and puff for a few days. If dragonfire is that hot,
> >I'm thinking that chemical reactions can't explain the heat, and nothing
> >explains why dragons don't incinerate their own nostrils. I sure
> >wouldn't want to be riding a dragon when it melted a tower. That much
> >radiant surface would barbecue.
>
> It reminds me of Pratchett's story, "Guards! Guards!". The dragon in
> that was completely implausible, and only existed in a special region
> of reality, where it didn't have to make sense. It could only be
> summoned up by magic.
>
> Like a chucktonite comet!
Aw fudge-ity-fudge fudge, i just got it.
See i was reading it "chuck-tonite" like the Yank way of spelling tonight.
It made little sense. I passed it off as something written by Chucky and
therefore not subject to logic.
Now, at 4am i realize it chucktonite, like kryptonite.
I'll go sit in the box and feel shame now.
Chucky & Janica
this guy, or something, called "Larry Caldwell" <lar...@teleport.com>,
and they made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>> "Right, so now the Red God is owed ... three hundred and twelve
>lives,
>> plus a few horses ... maybe we can do a bulk deal."
>.
>
>Wrong god. They weren't burning to death, they were drowning. The
>Drowned God would be owed 112 lives.
Right, right.
>Since the Drowned God resurrects
>all his followers, the Faceless could just cut to the chase and leave
>everybody alone.
I see.
>Of course, if the ship were on fire, it would present an interesting
>theological quandary.
Hee hee.
Yes.
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called Rob Wilson
<rob_wil...@ameritech.net>, and they made us all feel better by
saying the following stuff:
>> I'm happy with that too. They're magical.
>>
>> Daenerys's dragons puff and char things, but they're not melting stone
>> yet. It must be a maturity thing.
>
>Did you intentionally imply Puff the Magic Dragon?
Let's say ... yes.
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called "Lobster"
<asifj...@nochance.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying
the following stuff:
>> It reminds me of Pratchett's story, "Guards! Guards!". The dragon in
>> that was completely implausible, and only existed in a special region
>> of reality, where it didn't have to make sense. It could only be
>> summoned up by magic.
>>
>> Like a chucktonite comet!
>
>Aw fudge-ity-fudge fudge, i just got it.
>
>See i was reading it "chuck-tonite" like the Yank way of spelling tonight.
Because I'm known for embracing American standards while spelling.
>It made little sense. I passed it off as something written by Chucky and
>therefore not subject to logic.
Right.
>Now, at 4am i realize it chucktonite, like kryptonite.
>
>I'll go sit in the box and feel shame now.
You're not fit for the box yet, old son. You're for the spike.
*ushers Lobster smilingly over to the spike*
Larry Caldwell
> >See i was reading it "chuck-tonite" like the Yank way of spelling
tonight.
The only ones who misspell it 'tonite' are TV industry executives. It
is well known that they can't read, much less spell.
Then Chucky's eyes glowed:
> Because I'm known for embracing American standards while spelling.
You are known? Could have fooled me. Like the EU, you seem to play
your cards close to your vest. I have secret international
intelligence, though. I have Finnlanders in my family. When they
aren't being ose, they go mud bog racing.
Darren George
So what? I prefer dark meat.
John Vreeland
wrote:
How do you race a mud bog?
Jack V (Vreejack)
"Will future ages believe that such stupid bigotry ever existed!"--_Ivanhoe_
John Vreeland
<aaronb...@aol.com> wrote:
And why not? It all started at Harrenhal, after all. Lady Whent must
find some way to preside.
John Vreeland
<q...@deadspam.net> wrote:
>In a not so bright galaxy nowhere near intelligent space, "Darren
>George" <mad...@starmail.com> wrote:
>>> Giant rats! Must be to allow for an ASoIaF-themed MMORPG.
>>> Harrenhal is the newbie area.
>>
>>Well, there aren't any kobolds in Westeros.
>>
>>> Tourist: Yes. I'm sorry I can't say the letter 'B'.
>>>
>>> Bounder: 'C'?
>>>
>>> Tourist: Yes, that's right. It's all due to a trauma I suffered when I
>>> was a spoolboy. I was attacked by a bat.
>>
>>Well, can you say the letter 'K', then?
>
>No.
>
>But Wookie Breasts are everywhere.
>
>
I am not into women who are hairier than yours truly.
Even if they have six breasts and no penises.
Ilya the Recusant
Vreeland <vree...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 02:56:58 -0500, Ilya the Recusant
><q...@deadspam.net> wrote:
>
>>In a not so bright galaxy nowhere near intelligent space, "Darren
>>George" <mad...@starmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Giant rats! Must be to allow for an ASoIaF-themed MMORPG.
>>>> Harrenhal is the newbie area.
>>>
>>>Well, there aren't any kobolds in Westeros.
>>>
>>>> Tourist: Yes. I'm sorry I can't say the letter 'B'.
>>>>
>>>> Bounder: 'C'?
>>>>
>>>> Tourist: Yes, that's right. It's all due to a trauma I suffered when I
>>>> was a spoolboy. I was attacked by a bat.
>>>
>>>Well, can you say the letter 'K', then?
>>
>>No.
>>
>>But Wookie Breasts are everywhere.
>>
>>
>
>I am not into women who are hairier than yours truly.
>
>Even if they have six breasts and no penises.
...
That could be cool.
Hey, I'll try almost anything once. That's like three-times the
erogenous zones for a man to work over. And then reap in the benefits
of wild, carnal, animalistic sex.
>Jack V (Vreejack)
>"Will future ages believe that such stupid bigotry ever existed!"--_Ivanhoe_
Ilya the Recusant
Ilya the Recusant
George" <mad...@starmail.com> wrote:
>
>So what? I prefer dark meat.
So we'lll use some sauce.
Larry Caldwell
vree...@hotmail.com (John Vreeland) says...
> How do you race a mud bog?
With your mouth shut.
Chucky & Janica
this guy, or something, called "Larry Caldwell" <lar...@teleport.com>,
and they made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>Lobster cracked:
>
>> >See i was reading it "chuck-tonite" like the Yank way of spelling
>> >tonight.
>
>The only ones who misspell it 'tonite' are TV industry executives. It
>is well known that they can't read, much less spell.
Suits me. Or perhaps, more accurately, confuses me.
>Then Chucky's eyes glowed:
>
>> Because I'm known for embracing American standards while spelling.
>
>You are known? Could have fooled me. Like the EU, you seem to play
>your cards close to your vest. I have secret international
>intelligence, though. I have Finnlanders in my family. When they
>aren't being ose, they go mud bog racing.
If I thought my confusion was going to clear at this point, I was way
off.
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Ilya the Recusant
<q...@deadspam.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>Hey, I'll try almost anything once. That's like three-times the
>erogenous zones for a man to work over. And then reap in the benefits
>of wild, carnal, animalistic sex.
And you know what else, Ilya? There are huge, giant, massive trees
over on Kashyyyk.
*waggles eyebrows*
Larry Caldwell
janica...@kolumbus.finland (Chucky & Janica) says...
> Once upon a time - for example, 15 Mar 2005 14:43:49 -0800 - there was
> this guy, or something, called "Larry Caldwell" <lar...@teleport.com>,
> and they made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:
>
> >Lobster cracked:
> >
> >> >See i was reading it "chuck-tonite" like the Yank way of spelling
> >> >tonight.
> >
> >The only ones who misspell it 'tonite' are TV industry executives. It
> >is well known that they can't read, much less spell.
>
> Suits me. Or perhaps, more accurately, confuses me.
OK, to be direct, tonight is spelled tonight in the USA just like it is
in every other English speaking country. "Tonite" is a misspelling,
usually committed by poseurs who are trying to be kewl.
>
> >Then Chucky's eyes glowed:
> >
> >> Because I'm known for embracing American standards while spelling.
> >
> >You are known? Could have fooled me. Like the EU, you seem to play
> >your cards close to your vest. I have secret international
> >intelligence, though. I have Finnlanders in my family. When they
> >aren't being ose, they go mud bog racing.
>
> If I thought my confusion was going to clear at this point, I was way
> off.
OK. "Ose" is a filk term for sad songs. "Ose, Ose, and More Ose."
Finnlanders have an international reputation for oseness, except when
they are not. Mud bog racing involves a 4wd vehicle with a big engine,
usually a souped up Jeep, immense mud puddles, and heroic quantities of
beer, hopefully after the race. It's a rural American pastime, noted
for working class men covered with mud (except for their teeth) and
hordes of beautiful young women wearing not much of anything. As you
know, Finnlanders will seize any opportunity to take their clothes off,
and invented the sauna to prove it. After mud bogging, we make them
shower first. If you know anyone named Suni, say hi for me. My cousin
Lowell married one of them.
Clear as mud, but it covers the ground.
Larry
Ilya the Recusant
Janica <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote:
>Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 16 Mar 2005 02:53:29 -0500 -
>there was this guy, or something, called Ilya the Recusant
><q...@deadspam.net>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
>following stuff:
>
>>Hey, I'll try almost anything once. That's like three-times the
>>erogenous zones for a man to work over. And then reap in the benefits
>>of wild, carnal, animalistic sex.
>
>And you know what else, Ilya? There are huge, giant, massive trees
>over on Kashyyyk.
>
>*waggles eyebrows*
HURRAH!
Hug your tree today! And them masterbate all over it! It is a
compassionate act of love towards that which you love best and most!
>C&J
Pekka Savola
>there was this guy, or something, called Richard Taylor
><sol...@fastmail.fm>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
>following stuff:
>> I love Jaqen
>>and I'd like to see more characters from his part of the world. You
>>might be right that Jaqen made up the 'rules' - perhaps his code of
>>honour calls for an 'equvalent favour' and he just decided from his own
>>judgement what was required.
>
>Yep. I can't shake the thought that maybe he had a set of rules about
>such situations, and he decided to see what this resourceful little
>girl would do.
>
>Plus, Jaqen knew Syrio Forel. And he sees his work in Arya.
Could you refresh my memory a bit about the relationship between Syrio
and Jaqen? I don't recall anything on that...
--
"Tell me of difficulties surmounted, not those you stumble
over and fall" -- Robert Jordan: A Crown of Swords
Eoghan Scully
> Chucky & Janica <janica...@kolumbus.finland> wrote:
>
> >Plus, Jaqen knew Syrio Forel. And he sees his work in Arya.
>
> Could you refresh my memory a bit about the relationship between Syrio
> and Jaqen? I don't recall anything on that...
There is no known connection. It's just a theory.
The idea is that Syrio was really a faceless man all along. When he held
off the Lannister guards while Arya escaped he didn't actually die,
instead he was captured and thrown into the black cells. There he
changed his face and manner into Jaqen and Yoren picked him up to take
to the Wall.
The support for the theory is that both Syrio and Jaqen claim to be from
the Free Cities (though different cities) and that Jaqen's unusual
attention to Arya could be explained by the fact that he is Syrio. Also
why would GRRM have two characters when he could have one.
It's a pretty tenuous theory, maybe even a looney one.
mgraves
"Eoghan Scully" <trades...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ca385196...@News.Individual.NET...
Just so.
Jack V
Damned...beat me to it. Despite its loony characteristics, I like this
one as well (to tie it in to the Favorite loony theories thread).
There's a not-unreasonable chance that this has some grain of truth
to it (even if it's just "Syrio and Jaqen knew of each other('s
reputation) and knew vaguely what each other were doing). So...count
this amongst the favorite of loony theories, at least for me.
--
Jack V
forrest
>
> Damned...beat me to it. Despite its loony characteristics, I like this
> one as well (to tie it in to the Favorite loony theories thread).
> There's a not-unreasonable chance that this has some grain of truth
> to it (even if it's just "Syrio and Jaqen knew of each other('s
> reputation) and knew vaguely what each other were doing). So...count
> this amongst the favorite of loony theories, at least for me.
>
although wasn't syrio the blade master to the prince of braavos or some such
thing? seems an oddly public position for a member of a secret assassin's
guild to take. of course, we only have syrio's word on this, but i have to
imagine that ned would have done some kind of background check before hiring
him to play with his daughter with swords, knives and other sharp objects.
i can see jaqen knowing who syrio was, but vice versa, well, not so much. so
i say jaqen = syrio is loony. just 'cause we all think syrio was cool as
shit, with all his badass cat catching, "fear cuts sharper than knives"
water dancing jive talk, is not likely to save him when martin is killing
off major, VP characters...
--
forrest_m
forrest underscore m at hotmail
Larry Caldwell
forrest_...@hotmail.com (forrest) says...
> i can see jaqen knowing who syrio was, but vice versa, well, not so much. so
> i say jaqen = syrio is loony. just 'cause we all think syrio was cool as
> shit, with all his badass cat catching, "fear cuts sharper than knives"
> water dancing jive talk, is not likely to save him when martin is killing
> off major, VP characters...
Syrio was never a VP character. Martin is killing VP characters because
there are too many of them, and killing them is tidier than just
dropping them. When last seen, he was certainly in a tight spot, but he
may still be alive.
Velk
There's actually a few other things "supporting" it if you can call it
that.
Syrio is a expert waterdancer ( fencer ) from Braavos, who claims to
have been first sword to the sealord, with an unusual interest in Arya,
who calls her a boy, even though he knows she is a girl. Last seen in a
seemingly hopeless fight.
Jaqen is an expert waterdancer from Braavos, with an unusual interest
in Arya, who knows that she is a girl pretending to be a boy, knows her
real name, demonstrates the capability of shapeshifting his features
and pretends he is from somewhere other than Braavos. Presumed to be a
"faceless man" assassin, last seen heading off to take care of
business.
Now it's entirely possible that fencing is just the preferred fighting
style of Braavos, so anyone skilled in arms there will be taught it,
and that Jaqen is just very perceptive, a good guesser, and was
interested in Arya for his own reasons.
It's extremely tenuous, but there is a rather unusual amount of
similarities and unanswered questions about the two of them.
One thing which springs to mind - the faceless men are generally
considered to be pretty much infallible - with the ability to almost
instantly shift his face completely, what was Jaqen doing in the black
cells in the first place ? Being caught after an assignment would seem
more likely he would be immediately executed unless he killed someone
unimportant - and if they were unimportant why did someone pay a king's
ransom to have them killed ?
Elio M. Garcia Jr.
> Jaqen is an expert waterdancer from Braavos
Jaqen claims to be from Lorath, at least in that guise. Certainly, his
hair style does not seem to Braavosi in fashion. His mode of speaking was
also markedly different from Syrio's, which either reflects that Lorathi
bastard Valyrian is even more alien than the Braavosi, or he hasn't learned
Westeros's Common Tongue veryw ell.
His one show of swordsmanship in ACoK was not particularly spectacular as
you'd expect from a water dancer. Competent, however.
This doesn't necessarily mean anything, however. If Faceless Men play
their guises to the fullest, perhaps even can't actually make use of skills
and abilities they have in other guises, then this doesn't affect the
theory. It would suggest the Faceless Men are a lot more than just
shapechangers, though.
--
[Upon a Dzurlord learning of the murder of a critic by a painter]
"And it was well done, too. I'd have done the same, only-"
"Yes?"
"I don't paint." (Steven Brust, _The Phoenix Guards_)
Richard Taylor
> On 15 Mar 2005 14:43:49 -0800, "Larry Caldwell" <lar...@teleport.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Lobster cracked:
>>
>>
>>>>See i was reading it "chuck-tonite" like the Yank way of spelling
>>
>>tonight.
>>
>>The only ones who misspell it 'tonite' are TV industry executives. It
>>is well known that they can't read, much less spell.
>>
>>Then Chucky's eyes glowed:
>>
>>
>>>Because I'm known for embracing American standards while spelling.
>>
>>You are known? Could have fooled me. Like the EU, you seem to play
>>your cards close to your vest. I have secret international
>>intelligence, though. I have Finnlanders in my family. When they
>>aren't being ose, they go mud bog racing.
>
>
> How do you race a mud bog?
>
I suspect that 'in' a mud bog is how one races, rather than anything
else. However, I also suspect that you knew that, but couldn't resist an
entertaining feed line.
--
"Speaking of valid debates, it seems to me that there's an inverse
power-to-cleavage ratio among Aes Sedai." - Frank van Schie (r.a.s.w.rj)
Richard Taylor
It's semi-convincing, to my brain, but that might say more about my
brain than about the theory. I like the idea, since I like Syrio too
much to have wished to see an end of him in that early in the story.
This is the first I had really heard of it, and I am intrigued.
Richard Taylor
Killing characters is what Martin has caused us to expect. Martin's
work, from almost the very beginning has inspired me to think of it as
likely to do the exact /opposite/ of what fantasy readers expect. Hence,
not killing a character, or two, when it /looked/ as though they were
going to die... well, now that would, in fact, be *quite* Martin's
style, when viewed from a certain angle.
Richard Taylor
> On 17 Mar 2005 23:50:56 -0800, Velk wrote:
>
>
>>Jaqen is an expert waterdancer from Braavos
>
>
> Jaqen claims to be from Lorath, at least in that guise. Certainly, his
> hair style does not seem to Braavosi in fashion. His mode of speaking was
> also markedly different from Syrio's, which either reflects that Lorathi
> bastard Valyrian is even more alien than the Braavosi, or he hasn't learned
> Westeros's Common Tongue veryw ell.
Or, that he is deliberately speaking broken Westerosi, as part of his
diguise.
>
> His one show of swordsmanship in ACoK was not particularly spectacular as
> you'd expect from a water dancer. Competent, however.
Competant, as you would expect from the character of Jaqen H'Ghar. He
plays his part to the fullest, yes?
>
> This doesn't necessarily mean anything, however. If Faceless Men play
> their guises to the fullest, perhaps even can't actually make use of skills
> and abilities they have in other guises, then this doesn't affect the
> theory. It would suggest the Faceless Men are a lot more than just
> shapechangers, though.
I prefer my conclusions, but yours have some intriguing possibilities.
No doubt if the faceless men are really more than just shape-changers,
then we shall see more of them in a future book. Until then, I believe
that they do what they have been demonstrated to do. I do admire your
imagination, though.
Chucky & Janica
was this guy, or something, called Larry Caldwell
<lar...@teleport.com>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>> >> >See i was reading it "chuck-tonite" like the Yank way of spelling
>> >> >tonight.
>> >
>> >The only ones who misspell it 'tonite' are TV industry executives. It
>> >is well known that they can't read, much less spell.
>>
>> Suits me. Or perhaps, more accurately, confuses me.
>
>OK, to be direct, tonight is spelled tonight in the USA just like it is
>in every other English speaking country. "Tonite" is a misspelling,
>usually committed by poseurs who are trying to be kewl.
*sigh* I'm aware of this. It's also used by bingo halls and casinos.
I'm still trying to connect it to my own usage of it, which only ever
really occurs in the word "chucktonite".
>> If I thought my confusion was going to clear at this point, I was way
>> off.
>
>OK. "Ose" is a filk term for sad songs. "Ose, Ose, and More Ose."
>Finnlanders have an international reputation for oseness, except when
>they are not. Mud bog racing involves a 4wd vehicle with a big engine,
>usually a souped up Jeep, immense mud puddles, and heroic quantities of
>beer, hopefully after the race. It's a rural American pastime, noted
>for working class men covered with mud (except for their teeth) and
>hordes of beautiful young women wearing not much of anything. As you
>know, Finnlanders will seize any opportunity to take their clothes off,
>and invented the sauna to prove it. After mud bogging, we make them
>shower first. If you know anyone named Suni, say hi for me. My cousin
>Lowell married one of them.
>
>Clear as mud, but it covers the ground.
Well done.
*grin*
Chucky & Janica
there was this guy, or something, called Pekka Savola
<pek...@netcore.fi>, and they made us all feel better by saying the
following stuff:
>>Yep. I can't shake the thought that maybe he had a set of rules about
>>such situations, and he decided to see what this resourceful little
>>girl would do.
>>
>>Plus, Jaqen knew Syrio Forel. And he sees his work in Arya.
>
>Could you refresh my memory a bit about the relationship between Syrio
>and Jaqen? I don't recall anything on that...
They talk the same. They both entered Arya's life and then departed
leaving no trace. They are obviously the same person.
It's just a wacky theory we like making fun of, although it would be
cool if it turned out to be true.
John Vreeland
wrote:
>In article <kgdf3196eufeb7658...@4ax.com>,
>vree...@hotmail.com (John Vreeland) says...
>
>> How do you race a mud bog?
>
>With your mouth shut.
I went water-skiing in a lagoon at low tide once. Ick.
Larry Caldwell
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:00:32 GMT, Larry Caldwell <lar...@teleport.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <kgdf3196eufeb7658...@4ax.com>,
> >vree...@hotmail.com (John Vreeland) says...
> >
> >> How do you race a mud bog?
> >
> >With your mouth shut.
>
> I went water-skiing in a lagoon at low tide once. Ick.
OK, I'll bite. What were they pulling you with?
Velk
Elio M. Garcia Jr. wrote:
>
> > Jaqen is an expert waterdancer from Braavos
>
> Jaqen claims to be from Lorath, at least in that guise. Certainly,
his
> hair style does not seem to Braavosi in fashion. His mode of speaking
was
> also markedly different from Syrio's, which either reflects that
Lorathi
> bastard Valyrian is even more alien than the Braavosi, or he hasn't
learned
> Westeros's Common Tongue veryw ell.
>
Jaqen says : "If the day comes when you would find me again, give
that coin to any man from Braavos, and say these words to him--valar
morghulis."
I think it's pretty clear that he is from Braavos and was only
pretending to be Lorathi.
> His one show of swordsmanship in ACoK was not particularly
spectacular as
> you'd expect from a water dancer. Competent, however.
>
>From what I remember of Syrio's comments, waterdancer refers to the
style not a level of skill. Also, the skill of his opponent is not
clear, but he still kills him elegantly and easily. To turn it around -
can you think of anyone in the series other than Syrio that
demonstrates a greater aptitude for Braavos style fencing ?
Elio M. Garcia Jr.
> Jaqen says : "If the day comes when you would find me again, give
> that coin to any man from Braavos, and say these words to him--valar
> morghulis."
>
> I think it's pretty clear that he is from Braavos and was only
> pretending to be Lorathi.
They're called the Faceless Men of Braavos -- as in, they are based there.
This does not mean that all of its members are in fact _from_ Braavos.
The Jaqen persona is Lorathi. Whether Jaqen is the _true_ persona or not
-- whether that question even makes sense with the Faceless Men or not, in
fact -- we just don't know.
>>From what I remember of Syrio's comments, waterdancer refers to the
> style not a level of skill. Also, the skill of his opponent is not
> clear, but he still kills him elegantly and easily. To turn it around -
> can you think of anyone in the series other than Syrio that
> demonstrates a greater aptitude for Braavos style fencing ?
Bravos fight in the same mode as water dancers ... but those who call
themselves water dancers are, it seems, the top-end practicioners of the
art. As it is, there's no evidence that Jaqen fought in that style --
driving a guardsman back by a "flurry of blows" could fit a Dothraki with
an arakh or a knight of Westeros as well (or perhaps better so -- there
weren't any "flurries" when Syrio was doing his thing, at least) as a
bravo.
John Vreeland
Too generic a description to be useful in any direction. Jaqen was
apparently an accomplished swordsman, but if he knew how to fight like
a water dancer then Arya never noticed it.
As assassins, the Faceless Men should be good fighters, but they
probably spend a lot of time studying things other than swordsmanship.
I doubt that water-dancers get taught the trick of assassinating
someone with their own pet dog.
Then again, whatever Jaqen was he gave Rorg and Biter the willies, and
that is saying a lot.