CHOW: ADWD Prologue
John Vreeland
This is a Chapter of the Week (CHOW) for A Dance With ragons, book
five of a Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin.
We last saw Varamyr Sixskins (the POV for this chapter) crawling off
from the battle before the Wall after Melisandre had burned his eagle
and stunned him. I am going use the prologue to reconstruct his life
and summarize the "rules of engagement" for skin changers.
He had been born prematurely, and was called "Lump" as an infant, but
had grown slowly and was so weak as a baby that his mother waited
until he was four to give him a proper name, but by then "Lump" had
stuck.
When he was six, for no apparent reason he used one of the family dogs
to slay his young brother, Bump. Unable to identify which dog was the
culprit, his father killed the three of them with an axe. Varamyr was
inside the last one, trying to plead with his father to spare him, but
of course dogs cannot talk so he only whined before he died. But
Varamyr screamed, which is how they knew he was a skin-changer.
The family probably suspected Varamyr as the murderer, so they threw
him to one his wn kind, a skin changer named Haggon who taught him the
subtleties of the trade and how to survive in the wild.
Haggon tried to teach him some ethics: do not eat the flesh of men,
do not enter animals while they are rutting, do not enter humans. All
of this Haggon called _abomination_.
Haggon also had prejudices against certain animals, such as birds and
cats, and anything but wolves, really. But when the boy was ten
(that's when he took the name "Varamyr") he was taken to a gathering
of other skin changers and he saw all sort of animals and all sorts of
men and women. Orell was there with his eagle, as well as Borroq with
his boar, Briar with her shadowcat, Grisella with her goat, and more.
Haggon taught Varamyr that a skin changer may die many times in the
bodies of his animals, but a skin changer would also get a second life
when his own body died, by taking one last animal as a host. But
Varamyr denied this right to Haggon. Varamyr was always stronger than
Haggon, and took his old wolf Greyskin when he murdered his teacher,
eating his heart himself. Varamyr then went on to break almost all of
Haggon's rules, becoming a powerful if immoral skin changer.
Varamyr collected tribute from a group of villages, and often sent his
shadow cat to summon wenches for his pleasure. He didn't hurt them
much, only taking a hunk of hair as a keepsake, though he occasionally
had to defend himself against fathers and brothers and the like.
He once went back to show his parents that little Lump had become
Varamyr Sixskins, but they were dead and burned. he never got to be
King-Beyond-the-Wall, but he rode a snow bear thirteen feet tall and
had three wolves and a shadowcat in his court and was the right hand
of Mance Rayder. It was Orell's eagle that made six. Orell had still
raged within it. He would have tried to take Jon Snow's dire wolf but
Mance Rayder had forbidden it. Jon had great power as a skin changer
but was completely untutored.
During the battle Melisandre's magics so hurt him that we was unable
to slip into anything, so all his animals ran off and he slunk off
into the forest. Coming across the body of a woman who had been
killed by the savage Honfoot men, he tried to take her cloak but was
stabbed by her protective son. Wounded and bleeding he teamed up with
a knot of other stragglers, telling them in his shame that his name
was "Haggon."
While traveling they learned that the Weeper was gathering a host at
the Bridge of Skulls to take the Shadow Tower, while someone else was
calling for people to join him on his return to the valley of the
Thenns. Finally a prophet named Mother Mole was calling people to
follow her to the east coast where she had had visions of ships coming
to save the Free Folk.
But Varamyr was too weak to follow any of them. The knot of stragglers
had unraveled, and he was alone with a young woman named Thistle, who
tried to sew up his wound. Together he and the woman find an
abandoned hovel and try to make a camp of it but the snow was falling
fast and his wound was bad. When Thistle left to hunt he found his
wolves, and finding no other game used them to hunt other people and
enjoy their kills while his own body starved. He lived vicariously
like this for a few days slipping into the bitch wolf whenever she
rutted with the alpha "One Eye" and plotted his next move. But it
would only work if Thistle returned and she had been gone a long time.
When Thistle finally returned she was screaming that they had to move
because the white walkers were out in the hundreds. Varamyr was
dying, but he put all his strength into possessing her. She resisted
so much that she bit off her own tongue, and Varamyr failed as they
both died in the snow. Instead, Varamyr reached for Once Eye and
there took up his second life. They said it would be sweeter, and
simpler.
=-=
So Martin finally cleared up the rules on skin changers here. It is a
form of possession and union with the target. The influence goes both
ways. You feel what the target feels and will suffer greatly if it is
killed. Once a creature has been possessed it will accept others more
easily. Skin changers may fight over a target, taking them from each
other.
When a skin changer dies he may abandon his own body and exist
permanently in the target. But he cannot do it again: you only get
one second life (apparently, but that could be wrong). Furthermore,
that creature may then be taken by another skin changer, who--if they
are strong enough--may expel you from it.
=-=
What a humourless episode. Drab, dreary and dreadful. Grey skies and
grey snows. Can anyone take solace in Varamyr's second life? He
shows up again in a later chapter but it is not even clear that he has
the ability to cause mischief. Still it is enough to make you shudder
when you recognize him.
Gore a-plenty. Varamyr's wargs tear a small family to pieces and
gobble down their marrow. Infants are tender.
Sex? Well, Thistle has a pointy nose, a flat chin and a hairy mole.
And she is the fan service. Or you could join Varamyr while he slips
into the wolf bitch to enjoy her being mounted by One-Eye. I need a
shower.
--
My years on the mudpit that is Usnenet have taught me one important thing: three Creation Scientists can have a serious conversation, if two of them are sock puppets.
Ben
> SPOILERRIFIC!
>
> This is a Chapter of the Week (CHOW) for A Dance With ragons, book
> five of a Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin.
>
or anything....
I will comment on it shortly, but should we set up some sort of CHOW
schedule so that we won't double-CHOW or look forward to a CHOW that
someone else hijacks?
We never did CHOWs for the chapters that Martin released on his web-
site, right? I am not as excited about doing one of those considering
that it's very little different from the stuff he released several
years ago and has been hashed out for the most part, but I'll
volunteer for Tyrion as long as I can get a fresher one down the road.
Ben
Will in New Haven
> SPOILERRIFIC!
>
> This is a Chapter of the Week (CHOW) for A Dance With ragons, book
> five of a Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin.
>
Well done. This prolog confirms what has been extremely likely all
along: There were things happening north of the Wall during the Long
Summer that would have been scoffed at by ordinary people or even
scholars in the Seven Kingdoms. However, even with shapeshifters, the
Free Folk were never numerous or powerful enough to threaten the
southrons.
--
Will in New Haven
John Vreeland
Spme of those haven't been see in many years. I could barely remember
them. In fact, I read them with only an odd feeling that I had seen
them someplace before, until I finally remembered where. I think one
of them was posted shortly after Clash of Kings and had not been seen
since.
As for the Tyrion one, I'll take care of it. Too many people have
been reading that one over and over again for the past six years. That
and the Danaerys one with the burned bones.
richard
> We last saw Varamyr Sixskins (the POV for this chapter) crawling off
> from the battle before the Wall after Melisandre had burned his eagle
> and stunned him. I am going use the prologue to reconstruct his life
> and summarize the "rules of engagement" for skin changers.
The entire post was excellent, but this prologue to the discussion of
the prologue I found particularly helpful. Thanks!
Richard
Ben
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 07:57:46 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
>
> them. In fact, I read them with only an odd feeling that I had seen
> them someplace before, until I finally remembered where. I think one
> of them was posted shortly after Clash of Kings and had not been seen
> since.
>
> As for the Tyrion one, I'll take care of it. Too many people have
> been reading that one over and over again for the past six years. That
> and the Danaerys one with the burned bones.
>
just scurry up and try to steal them before you CHOW the whole book?
Can I claim Jon's chapter? I believe that one appeared in rotation on
the web-site as well.
Ben
Ben
aftermath in this book. The Night's Watch has essentially guarded the
Wall for thousands of years, primarily to keep the south safe from
some truly scary shit, like the Others and their blue-eyed zombies.
But for pretty much all the time that anyone remembers, all they have
done is watched the doings of a bunch of pretty pathetic villagers. We
have never seen the slightest hint that the wildlings would be
dangerous to any kind of organized force. The Black Brothers, a pretty
pathetic bunch of degraded former rapers led by a handful of worthies,
held an army of them off for the most part. Stannis' relatively small
force basically kicked the shit out of them.
And this notably is a desperate gathering of tribesmen who essentially
all hate each other and never would have gathered if the Others didn't
present a danger to all of them. Without that exterior threat, what
possible fear factor do the Night's Watch have from the wildings? A
chaotic, disorganized, poorly armed bunch of villagers? If I were in
King's Landing, I would have stopped sending anyone of any worth up
there as well.
I also am struggling with the hatred that the Night's Watch and the
wildings have for each other. The wildings appear to like living free
and freezing their balls off, so why do they hate on the Brothers?
Similarly, other than the ranger groups (who are essentially an enemy
group gathering intel by raiding wilding villages themselves) getting
attacked when they enter territory they shouldn't, why do the Night's
Watch hate the wildings so much. I would feel sorry for them.
Overall with the appeasement going on in this book, it makes the
centuries-long state of war between the Wall sides seem somewhat
stupid and meaningless. But perhaps I am missing something.
Ben
Ben
> SPOILERRIFIC!
>
> This is a Chapter of the Week (CHOW) for A Dance With ragons, book
> five of a Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin.
>
> He had been born prematurely, and was called "Lump" as an infant, but
> had grown slowly and was so weak as a baby that his mother waited
> until he was four to give him a proper name, but by then "Lump" had
> stuck.
>
This gives us a good idea of the infant mortality rate in the North.
Two years (the normal delay) is a long time to wait to name your kid.
Also to name your kids Bump and Lump is a whole other world of
crackhead mom.
> When he was six, for no apparent reason he used one of the family dogs
> to slay his young brother, Bump. Unable to identify which dog was the
> culprit, his father killed the three of them with an axe. Varamyr was
> inside the last one, trying to plead with his father to spare him, but
> of course dogs cannot talk so he only whined before he died. But
> Varamyr screamed, which is how they knew he was a skin-changer.
>
I kind of got the impression that Lump did not have control of things
all that well. It seems likely that his resentment of his healthier
and favored brother brought him to use the dogs, but it isn't spelled
out that way.
I also thought it said that the oldest dog Loptail still ran up when
the father whistled for him, even after he had killed the other two
dogs. Varamyr also calls this out as the first time he died (of nine
times, all in other forms). Defeats the presumed notion that you
shouldn't be inside a critter when it dies, though apparently it
hurts.
> The family probably suspected Varamyr as the murderer, so they threw
> him to one his wn kind, a skin changer named Haggon who taught him the
> subtleties of the trade and how to survive in the wild.
>
Though not spelled out, this does seem to be their supposition, though
from the reaction the wildings give to skinchangers in the rest of
this book, it would seem that perhaps even if he had been a good kid
they still would have turned him over.
> Haggon tried to teach him some ethics: do not eat the flesh of men,
> do not enter animals while they are rutting, do not enter humans. All
> of this Haggon called _abomination_.
>
And who are we to disagree? That Varamyr dug on this stuff kind of
shows his perversion.
> Haggon also had prejudices against certain animals, such as birds and
> cats, and anything but wolves, really. But when the boy was ten
> (that's when he took the name "Varamyr") he was taken to a gathering
> of other skin changers and he saw all sort of animals and all sorts of
> men and women. Orell was there with his eagle, as well as Borroq with
> his boar, Briar with her shadowcat, Grisella with her goat, and more.
>
It seemed that for most animals, if you assumed their shape too often
you would become like them, or in the case of the birds basically get
too attached to flight and not able to ground yourself. It mostly
seemed that wolves were the easiest to relate to. I particularly felt
for Grisella (I believe her first and only appearance is in this
flashback). If you had the ability to possess an animal, who in the
hell would choose a goat?
> Haggon taught Varamyr that a skin changer may die many times in the
> bodies of his animals, but a skin changer would also get a second life
> when his own body died, by taking one last animal as a host. But
> Varamyr denied this right to Haggon. Varamyr was always stronger than
> Haggon, and took his old wolf Greyskin when he murdered his teacher,
> eating his heart himself. Varamyr then went on to break almost all of
> Haggon's rules, becoming a powerful if immoral skin changer.
>
It appeared that Varamyr was just about the best of the skinchangers
also, having the ability to possess six different animals. Presumably
this meant he had a stable working relationship with that many, the
ability to possess any of them at any time but also the ability to
control them even when not possessing them. No real explanation why
Varamyr would be so bitter and angry toward Haggon, though, who seems
to have done everything he could to teach him and essentially raised
him.
> Varamyr collected tribute from a group of villages, and often sent his
> shadow cat to summon wenches for his pleasure. He didn't hurt them
> much, only taking a hunk of hair as a keepsake, though he occasionally
> had to defend himself against fathers and brothers and the like.
>
Yeah, a creepy guy. He also sometimes left them impregnated, with
small runty creatures. Seems he cared for his as well as his parents
did. He also mentions that he often slipped inside Sly, the female
wolf, while she was being mounted. Would probably be the last time I
would want to use my skills. This dude is not necessarily one whose
POV I am better off to have known.
> He once went back to show his parents that little Lump had become
> Varamyr Sixskins, but they were dead and burned. he never got to be
> King-Beyond-the-Wall, but he rode a snow bear thirteen feet tall and
> had three wolves and a shadowcat in his court and was the right hand
> of Mance Rayder. It was Orell's eagle that made six. Orell had still
> raged within it. He would have tried to take Jon Snow's dire wolf but
> Mance Rayder had forbidden it. Jon had great power as a skin changer
> but was completely untutored.
>
Curious if he could have broken this bond. He didn't break the bond
with Orell (who had already died) nor Greyskin as Haggon was dead then
too. It's also curious that Varamyr did what Rayder said, as he
apparently didn't listen to anyone else.
> During the battle Melisandre's magics so hurt him that we was unable
> to slip into anything, so all his animals ran off and he slunk off
> into the forest. Coming across the body of a woman who had been
> killed by the savage Honfoot men, he tried to take her cloak but was
> stabbed by her protective son. Wounded and bleeding he teamed up with
> a knot of other stragglers, telling them in his shame that his name
> was "Haggon."
>
We talked about Mirri Maz Durr being a hero. That kid that stabbed
this freak was a hero. He's probably a little blue-eyed zombie right
now, more power to his adorable little zombie self.
> While traveling they learned that the Weeper was gathering a host at
> the Bridge of Skulls to take the Shadow Tower, while someone else was
> calling for people to join him on his return to the valley of the
> Thenns. Finally a prophet named Mother Mole was calling people to
> follow her to the east coast where she had had visions of ships coming
> to save the Free Folk.
>
So was the group who went to the valley of the Thenns the same group
we see later? Led by Magnarr's son? Not entirely clear on this, but it
appears to be the case. We hear a lot about the other two groups but
don't actually see them, though I think it's safe to say we know what
the resolution is with Mother's Mole's group.
> But Varamyr was too weak to follow any of them. The knot of stragglers
> had unraveled, and he was alone with a young woman named Thistle, who
> tried to sew up his wound. Together he and the woman find an
> abandoned hovel and try to make a camp of it but the snow was falling
> fast and his wound was bad. When Thistle left to hunt he found his
> wolves, and finding no other game used them to hunt other people and
> enjoy their kills while his own body starved. He lived vicariously
> like this for a few days slipping into the bitch wolf whenever she
> rutted with the alpha "One Eye" and plotted his next move. But it
> would only work if Thistle returned and she had been gone a long time.
>
Curious that he wouldn't have the wolves bring him some food. It
certainly seemed he would have been able to do this. Easy enough to
have it left close by where Thistle could find it. He said previously
that he would find his own meat, presumably with the help of his
possessed animals and he still had possession of at least one wolf.
Seemed foolish to not use him.
> When Thistle finally returned she was screaming that they had to move
> because the white walkers were out in the hundreds. Varamyr was
> dying, but he put all his strength into possessing her. She resisted
> so much that she bit off her own tongue, and Varamyr failed as they
> both died in the snow. Instead, Varamyr reached for Once Eye and
> there took up his second life. They said it would be sweeter, and
> simpler.
>
There's the repayment for helping that bastard out. She was still
loyal to him. Glad she fought him to the end and made sure he became
an old wolf, presumably his second life won't be much longer. I do
love One Eye's reappearance later on in the book.
> =-=
>
> So Martin finally cleared up the rules on skin changers here. It is a
> form of possession and union with the target. The influence goes both
> ways. You feel what the target feels and will suffer greatly if it is
> killed. Once a creature has been possessed it will accept others more
> easily. Skin changers may fight over a target, taking them from each
> other.
>
Are we sure about that? Varamyr was the best of them, and he didn't do
it. Talked about it and took them from dead skinchangers, but never an
actual living one.
> When a skin changer dies he may abandon his own body and exist
> permanently in the target. But he cannot do it again: you only get
> one second life (apparently, but that could be wrong). Furthermore,
> that creature may then be taken by another skin changer, who--if they
> are strong enough--may expel you from it.
>
This appears to be true, though Varamyr didn't expel Orell, as he felt
him still railing even after he took the eagle. They didn't say if
this happened or not with Haggon, though it appeared to be, as he
"denied him" the second life.
> =-=
> What a humourless episode. Drab, dreary and dreadful. Grey skies and
> grey snows. Can anyone take solace in Varamyr's second life? He
> shows up again in a later chapter but it is not even clear that he has
> the ability to cause mischief. Still it is enough to make you shudder
> when you recognize him.
>
I actually thought Varamyr was a very non-GRRM character. He was one
of those "evil from birth" characters who is irrationally immoral, a
stereotypical villain. I am glad we didn't get to see more of him. In
fact, other than to give us a window into other things that were going
on north of the Wall and the skinchanging rules (which appear to be
pivotal to the rest of the series), I didn't much care for this POV.
> Gore a-plenty. Varamyr's wargs tear a small family to pieces and
> gobble down their marrow. Infants are tender.
>
Ug.
> Sex? Well, Thistle has a pointy nose, a flat chin and a hairy mole.
> And she is the fan service. Or you could join Varamyr while he slips
> into the wolf bitch to enjoy her being mounted by One-Eye. I need a
> shower.
>
Double-ug
Ben
Will in New Haven
> On Jul 18, 8:46 am, Will in New Haven<bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 17, 2:52 pm, John Vreeland <john.vreel...@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> > > SPOILERRIFIC!
>
> > > This is a Chapter of the Week (CHOW) for A Dance With ragons, book
> > > five of a Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin.
>
> > Well done. This prolog confirms what has been extremely likely all
> > along: There were things happening north of the Wall during the Long
> > Summer that would have been scoffed at by ordinary people or even
> > scholars in the Seven Kingdoms. However, even with shapeshifters, the
> > Free Folk were never numerous or powerful enough to threaten the
> > southrons.
>
> This is kind of a pivotal issue after looking at Feast and now the
> aftermath in this book. The Night's Watch has essentially guarded the
> Wall for thousands of years, primarily to keep the south safe from
> some truly scary shit, like the Others and their blue-eyed zombies.
> But for pretty much all the time that anyone remembers, all they have
> done is watched the doings of a bunch of pretty pathetic villagers.
There is a parallel here between the Watch and the Dragon-riders of
Pern. At the beginning of the series, the thread had not fallen for
many years and the Dragon-riders were seen as less than essential and
their powers and priveliges were being challenged. Obviously, there
are many differences between the two groups but there is that
similarity.
We
> have never seen the slightest hint that the wildlings would be
> dangerous to any kind of organized force. The Black Brothers, a pretty
> pathetic bunch of degraded former rapers led by a handful of worthies,
> held an army of them off for the most part. Stannis' relatively small
> force basically kicked the shit out of them.
It MIGHT have been difficult to conquer the land north of the Wall
with the Wildings as a resisting guerilla force but they were
certainly no threat to anyone.
> And this notably is a desperate gathering of tribesmen who essentially
> all hate each other and never would have gathered if the Others didn't
> present a danger to all of them. Without that exterior threat, what
> possible fear factor do the Night's Watch have from the wildings? A
> chaotic, disorganized, poorly armed bunch of villagers? If I were in
> King's Landing, I would have stopped sending anyone of any worth up
> there as well.
That would have been short-sighted but understandable. And the Watch,
by making out that the Wildlings were a terrible danger, made it even
easier to sneer at their claim to be the guardians of men.
>
> I also am struggling with the hatred that the Night's Watch and the
> wildings have for each other. The wildings appear to like living free
> and freezing their balls off, so why do they hate on the Brothers?
> Similarly, other than the ranger groups (who are essentially an enemy
> group gathering intel by raiding wilding villages themselves) getting
> attacked when they enter territory they shouldn't, why do the Night's
> Watch hate the wildings so much. I would feel sorry for them.
>
> Overall with the appeasement going on in this book, it makes the
> centuries-long state of war between the Wall sides seem somewhat
> stupid and meaningless. But perhaps I am missing something.
No, it IS stupid and meaningless. I think anyone who thinks otherwise
is foolish. Lots of stupid meaningless things happen in these books.
Just as in so-called real life.
John Vreeland
Since they are quite independent story arcs it doesn't really matter
which one is done first, though obviously the Prologue needed to be
done before Bran. Do whichever one you like and I or someone else
will fill in any gaps. I, too, am eager to discuss this book.
John Vreeland
I noticed this parallel as well but after three or four books Pern
sucked.
>>We
>> have never seen the slightest hint that the wildlings would be
>> dangerous to any kind of organized force. The Black Brothers, a pretty
>> pathetic bunch of degraded former rapers led by a handful of worthies,
>> held an army of them off for the most part. Stannis' relatively small
>> force basically kicked the shit out of them.
>It MIGHT have been difficult to conquer the land north of the Wall
>with the Wildings as a resisting guerilla force but they were
>certainly no threat to anyone.
In the past, however, the numbers of giants, children of the forest,
mammoths, unicorns and other grumpkins seems to have been much higher.
Sam uncovered an account of rangers trading with the Children only two
or three hundred years before. There are tales of giant's heads being
mounted on Winterfell's walls. Apparently men have been pressuring
all of these creatures into extinction, so much that their threat has
been forgotten. The Others have also mostly disappeared whereas once
upon a time they were more ubiquitous, if Nan's tales can be trusted.
If giants were still raiding south of the wall or Others had been more
in evidence every few generations then the Night's Watch would garner
more respect. Instead, a more successful collection of raiders has
actually depopulated the gift: human raiders. While this has been a
significant problem (and one Eddard was trying to address) it is not
the sort of thing to romanticize easily, unless you metaphorically
convert the wildlings into orcs and giants, which is something that
occurs in our world.
>> And this notably is a desperate gathering of tribesmen who essentially
>> all hate each other and never would have gathered if the Others didn't
>> present a danger to all of them. Without that exterior threat, what
>> possible fear factor do the Night's Watch have from the wildings? A
>> chaotic, disorganized, poorly armed bunch of villagers? If I were in
>> King's Landing, I would have stopped sending anyone of any worth up
>> there as well.
>
>That would have been short-sighted but understandable. And the Watch,
>by making out that the Wildlings were a terrible danger, made it even
>easier to sneer at their claim to be the guardians of men.
>
>>
>> I also am struggling with the hatred that the Night's Watch and the
>> wildings have for each other. The wildings appear to like living free
>> and freezing their balls off, so why do they hate on the Brothers?
>> Similarly, other than the ranger groups (who are essentially an enemy
>> group gathering intel by raiding wilding villages themselves) getting
>> attacked when they enter territory they shouldn't, why do the Night's
>> Watch hate the wildings so much. I would feel sorry for them.
>>
>> Overall with the appeasement going on in this book, it makes the
>> centuries-long state of war between the Wall sides seem somewhat
>> stupid and meaningless. But perhaps I am missing something.
>
>No, it IS stupid and meaningless. I think anyone who thinks otherwise
>is foolish. Lots of stupid meaningless things happen in these books.
>Just as in so-called real life.
For many of the wildlings, as for many of the Brothers, the antipathy
is a blood feud. It is too highly emotionally charged for them to
easily see reason. This is especially true for rangers and raiders
and anyone who has lost a loved one to one or the other, but the
wildlings are not one big family and the Night's Watch is a band of
adopted brothers so there is some room for rational thought.
John Vreeland
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Jul 17, 11:52 am, John Vreeland <john.vreel...@ieee.org> wrote:
>> SPOILERRIFIC!
>>
>> This is a Chapter of the Week (CHOW) for A Dance With ragons, book
>> five of a Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin.
>>
>
>> He had been born prematurely, and was called "Lump" as an infant, but
>> had grown slowly and was so weak as a baby that his mother waited
>> until he was four to give him a proper name, but by then "Lump" had
>> stuck.
>>
>This gives us a good idea of the infant mortality rate in the North.
>Two years (the normal delay) is a long time to wait to name your kid.
>Also to name your kids Bump and Lump is a whole other world of
>crackhead mom.
I left out the reason. Lump's older sister called him "Lump" when he
was still in the womb, as in "Mommy's lump."
>> When he was six, for no apparent reason he used one of the family dogs
>> to slay his young brother, Bump. Unable to identify which dog was the
>> culprit, his father killed the three of them with an axe. Varamyr was
>> inside the last one, trying to plead with his father to spare him, but
>> of course dogs cannot talk so he only whined before he died. But
>> Varamyr screamed, which is how they knew he was a skin-changer.
>>
>I kind of got the impression that Lump did not have control of things
>all that well. It seems likely that his resentment of his healthier
>and favored brother brought him to use the dogs, but it isn't spelled
>out that way.
He might not have been completely responsible for Bump's death. He
was only six, after all. But he did feel very guilty about it. When
the woods witch told his mother that Bump was now part of the trees
and such and was watching them Lump got very nervous and guilty.
>I also thought it said that the oldest dog Loptail still ran up when
>the father whistled for him, even after he had killed the other two
>dogs. Varamyr also calls this out as the first time he died (of nine
>times, all in other forms). Defeats the presumed notion that you
>shouldn't be inside a critter when it dies, though apparently it
>hurts.
Loptail ran up because he was the eldest and best trained, according
to Varamyr. He was actually fighting his instincts.
>> The family probably suspected Varamyr as the murderer, so they threw
>> him to one his wn kind, a skin changer named Haggon who taught him the
>> subtleties of the trade and how to survive in the wild.
>>
>Though not spelled out, this does seem to be their supposition, though
>from the reaction the wildings give to skinchangers in the rest of
>this book, it would seem that perhaps even if he had been a good kid
>they still would have turned him over.
It is possible they did not suspect him, but the manner of his
discovery suggests otherwise. Perhaps they did not even blame him
that much as he was only a six, after all, but it would be wise in any
event to get rid of him somehow.
>> Haggon tried to teach him some ethics: do not eat the flesh of men,
>> do not enter animals while they are rutting, do not enter humans. All
>> of this Haggon called _abomination_.
>>
>And who are we to disagree? That Varamyr dug on this stuff kind of
>shows his perversion.
>
>> Haggon also had prejudices against certain animals, such as birds and
>> cats, and anything but wolves, really. But when the boy was ten
>> (that's when he took the name "Varamyr") he was taken to a gathering
>> of other skin changers and he saw all sort of animals and all sorts of
>> men and women. Orell was there with his eagle, as well as Borroq with
>> his boar, Briar with her shadowcat, Grisella with her goat, and more.
>>
>It seemed that for most animals, if you assumed their shape too often
>you would become like them, or in the case of the birds basically get
>too attached to flight and not able to ground yourself. It mostly
>seemed that wolves were the easiest to relate to. I particularly felt
>for Grisella (I believe her first and only appearance is in this
>flashback). If you had the ability to possess an animal, who in the
>hell would choose a goat?
Haggon pointed out that the influence between you and your animal is
bi-directional. (Of course Haggon assumed that you would only have one
animal, in defying this Varamyr is exceptional.) This is why Haggon
was prejudiced against certain kinds. He thought that bonding with a
prey animal (like a cow or goat) would make you a craven.
>> Haggon taught Varamyr that a skin changer may die many times in the
>> bodies of his animals, but a skin changer would also get a second life
>> when his own body died, by taking one last animal as a host. But
>> Varamyr denied this right to Haggon. Varamyr was always stronger than
>> Haggon, and took his old wolf Greyskin when he murdered his teacher,
>> eating his heart himself. Varamyr then went on to break almost all of
>> Haggon's rules, becoming a powerful if immoral skin changer.
>>
>It appeared that Varamyr was just about the best of the skinchangers
>also, having the ability to possess six different animals. Presumably
>this meant he had a stable working relationship with that many, the
>ability to possess any of them at any time but also the ability to
>control them even when not possessing them. No real explanation why
>Varamyr would be so bitter and angry toward Haggon, though, who seems
>to have done everything he could to teach him and essentially raised
>him.
Nothing in the text seems to explain it. The only resentment Varamyr
seemed to carry was that his mother cried for Bump when he died, but
not for lump when he left. It seems that his double-murder of Haggon
was just some nasty thing he felt like doing at that moment. Somewhat
like the murder of his brother. I think he is a bit of a psychopath
and was just exploring his own power.
>> Varamyr collected tribute from a group of villages, and often sent his
>> shadow cat to summon wenches for his pleasure. He didn't hurt them
>> much, only taking a hunk of hair as a keepsake, though he occasionally
>> had to defend himself against fathers and brothers and the like.
>>
>Yeah, a creepy guy. He also sometimes left them impregnated, with
>small runty creatures. Seems he cared for his as well as his parents
>did. He also mentions that he often slipped inside Sly, the female
>wolf, while she was being mounted. Would probably be the last time I
>would want to use my skills. This dude is not necessarily one whose
>POV I am better off to have known.
>> He once went back to show his parents that little Lump had become
>> Varamyr Sixskins, but they were dead and burned. he never got to be
>> King-Beyond-the-Wall, but he rode a snow bear thirteen feet tall and
>> had three wolves and a shadowcat in his court and was the right hand
>> of Mance Rayder. It was Orell's eagle that made six. Orell had still
>> raged within it. He would have tried to take Jon Snow's dire wolf but
>> Mance Rayder had forbidden it. Jon had great power as a skin changer
>> but was completely untutored.
>>
>Curious if he could have broken this bond. He didn't break the bond
>with Orell (who had already died) nor Greyskin as Haggon was dead then
>too.
That's a bit unclear, but I think he recalls pushing Haggon out at one
point, though in recollections Haggon is crying after losing Greyskin.
Perhaps both things are true.
>It's also curious that Varamyr did what Rayder said, as he
>apparently didn't listen to anyone else.
I suspect that if he ever discovered a way to destroy Mance Rayder
without getting caught he would have tried it, assuming Mance was of
no further use. Once must assume that he already tried or he would
not have followed him. Mance had to fight everyone else.
>> During the battle Melisandre's magics so hurt him that we was unable
>> to slip into anything, so all his animals ran off and he slunk off
>> into the forest. Coming across the body of a woman who had been
>> killed by the savage Honfoot men, he tried to take her cloak but was
>> stabbed by her protective son. Wounded and bleeding he teamed up with
>> a knot of other stragglers, telling them in his shame that his name
>> was "Haggon."
>We talked about Mirri Maz Durr being a hero. That kid that stabbed
>this freak was a hero. He's probably a little blue-eyed zombie right
>now, more power to his adorable little zombie self.
I find I cannot agree. The boy had been his ally until a few hours
before and only stabbed him for favoring the comfort of the living
over the dead. Taking that cloak was one of the least objectionable
things Varamyr ever did in his life. He did not know there was anyone
around to care about the corpse.
>> While traveling they learned that the Weeper was gathering a host at
>> the Bridge of Skulls to take the Shadow Tower, while someone else was
>> calling for people to join him on his return to the valley of the
>> Thenns. Finally a prophet named Mother Mole was calling people to
>> follow her to the east coast where she had had visions of ships coming
>> to save the Free Folk.
>So was the group who went to the valley of the Thenns the same group
>we see later? Led by Magnarr's son? Not entirely clear on this, but it
>appears to be the case. We hear a lot about the other two groups but
>don't actually see them, though I think it's safe to say we know what
>the resolution is with Mother's Mole's group.
No, the Thenns stay south. Whoever went north was probably dreaming
of tales heard at the breast of the magical hidden valley of the
Thenns. As Varamyr points out, the Thenns left for a bloody good
reason.
>> But Varamyr was too weak to follow any of them. The knot of stragglers
>> had unraveled, and he was alone with a young woman named Thistle, who
>> tried to sew up his wound. Together he and the woman find an
>> abandoned hovel and try to make a camp of it but the snow was falling
>> fast and his wound was bad. When Thistle left to hunt he found his
>> wolves, and finding no other game used them to hunt other people and
>> enjoy their kills while his own body starved. He lived vicariously
>> like this for a few days slipping into the bitch wolf whenever she
>> rutted with the alpha "One Eye" and plotted his next move. But it
>> would only work if Thistle returned and she had been gone a long time.
>>
>Curious that he wouldn't have the wolves bring him some food. It
>certainly seemed he would have been able to do this. Easy enough to
>have it left close by where Thistle could find it. He said previously
>that he would find his own meat, presumably with the help of his
>possessed animals and he still had possession of at least one wolf.
>Seemed foolish to not use him.
There were no animals to find except for humans. Apparently he never
ate human flesh himself, except for Haggon's heart. Disgust works.
Clearly he was not a complete psychopath.
>> When Thistle finally returned she was screaming that they had to move
>> because the white walkers were out in the hundreds. Varamyr was
>> dying, but he put all his strength into possessing her. She resisted
>> so much that she bit off her own tongue, and Varamyr failed as they
>> both died in the snow. Instead, Varamyr reached for Once Eye and
>> there took up his second life. They said it would be sweeter, and
>> simpler.
>>
>There's the repayment for helping that bastard out. She was still
>loyal to him. Glad she fought him to the end and made sure he became
>an old wolf, presumably his second life won't be much longer. I do
>love One Eye's reappearance later on in the book.
>> =-=
>>
>> So Martin finally cleared up the rules on skin changers here. It is a
>> form of possession and union with the target. The influence goes both
>> ways. You feel what the target feels and will suffer greatly if it is
>> killed. Once a creature has been possessed it will accept others more
>> easily. Skin changers may fight over a target, taking them from each
>> other.
>>
>Are we sure about that? Varamyr was the best of them, and he didn't do
>it. Talked about it and took them from dead skinchangers, but never an
>actual living one.
He took Greyskin from Haggon while the latter was alive. He seemed
certain he could take Ghost, and Mance was cautous enough to order him
not to.
>> When a skin changer dies he may abandon his own body and exist
>> permanently in the target. But he cannot do it again: you only get
>> one second life (apparently, but that could be wrong). Furthermore,
>> that creature may then be taken by another skin changer, who--if they
>> are strong enough--may expel you from it.
>This appears to be true, though Varamyr didn't expel Orell, as he felt
>him still railing even after he took the eagle. They didn't say if
>this happened or not with Haggon, though it appeared to be, as he
>"denied him" the second life.
>> =-=
>> What a humourless episode. Drab, dreary and dreadful. Grey skies and
>> grey snows. Can anyone take solace in Varamyr's second life? He
>> shows up again in a later chapter but it is not even clear that he has
>> the ability to cause mischief. Still it is enough to make you shudder
>> when you recognize him.
>>
>I actually thought Varamyr was a very non-GRRM character. He was one
>of those "evil from birth" characters who is irrationally immoral, a
>stereotypical villain. I am glad we didn't get to see more of him. In
>fact, other than to give us a window into other things that were going
>on north of the Wall and the skinchanging rules (which appear to be
>pivotal to the rest of the series), I didn't much care for this POV.
Varamyr is not even interesting as a psychopath, but everything else
in the chapter certainly was.
>> Gore a-plenty. Varamyr's wargs tear a small family to pieces and
>> gobble down their marrow. Infants are tender.
>>
>Ug.
>
>> Sex? Well, Thistle has a pointy nose, a flat chin and a hairy mole.
>> And she is the fan service. Or you could join Varamyr while he slips
>> into the wolf bitch to enjoy her being mounted by One-Eye. I need a
>> shower.
>>
>Double-ug
>
>Ben
Will in New Haven
Sure. And ASoIaF doesn't suck, quite. It is much better written for
one thing.
<I snipped a bunch of stuff>
>
> For many of the wildlings, as for many of the Brothers, the antipathy
> is a blood feud. It is too highly emotionally charged for them to
> easily see reason. This is especially true for rangers and raiders
> and anyone who has lost a loved one to one or the other, but the
> wildlings are not one big family and the Night's Watch is a band of
> adopted brothers so there is some room for rational thought.
Very little. In a world where Karstark could go on and on about
vengeance _for killings done in the normal course of a war_ and people
would listen to him as if he had an actual point there is little room
for rational thought. Blood feuds do not _begin_ during a war unless
there is treachery involved.
John Vreeland
Well, you have seen the raiders. How could there NOT be a blood feud
given how they act? Then once some of the Watch members started
treating wildlings like an unworthy enemy...all you need for a blood
feud is a sense of US and THEM and a misunderstanding.
I recall how the war started between the Texans and the Apaches.
Originally the Apaches had been considered just another tribe, perhaps
a bit more successful than others because of their horse mastery. They
gathered in a town with the Texans one day to hammer out a treaty, and
as a gesture of good faith they brought some white captives with them.
One of them was a woman who admitted that the Apaches had raped her
and the racist whites took that as an unforgiveable act of war. After
that anything short of genocide was insufficient.
Ben
<bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
> On Jul 19, 9:41 am, Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > This is kind of a pivotal issue after looking at Feast and now the
> > aftermath in this book. The Night's Watch has essentially guarded the
> > Wall for thousands of years, primarily to keep the south safe from
> > some truly scary shit, like the Others and their blue-eyed zombies.
> > But for pretty much all the time that anyone remembers, all they have
> > done is watched the doings of a bunch of pretty pathetic villagers.
>
> There is a parallel here between the Watch and the Dragon-riders of
> Pern. At the beginning of the series, the thread had not fallen for
> many years and the Dragon-riders were seen as less than essential and
> their powers and priveliges were being challenged. Obviously, there
> are many differences between the two groups but there is that
> similarity.
>
early Pern books the main characters had some pretty impressive (and
very large) dragons what were clearly awesome specimens of their
breed, and the dragonriders were still impressive themselves. In this
case I like Martin's Night's Watch being a few remnants of nobility
(like Mormount, Benjen, and Aemon) but almost completely lost to
mediocre at best and scum of the earth at worst.
> We
>
> > have never seen the slightest hint that the wildlings would be
> > dangerous to any kind of organized force. The Black Brothers, a pretty
> > pathetic bunch of degraded former rapers led by a handful of worthies,
> > held an army of them off for the most part. Stannis' relatively small
> > force basically kicked the shit out of them.
>
> It MIGHT have been difficult to conquer the land north of the Wall
> with the Wildings as a resisting guerilla force but they were
> certainly no threat to anyone.
>
I'll buy that, but who in the hell would want to conquer that land
anyway? Doesn't seem like there is anything worth having there, even
in Summer. As an aggressive force for anything other than the
occassional food or women raid they made out pretty poorly.
> > And this notably is a desperate gathering of tribesmen who essentially
> > all hate each other and never would have gathered if the Others didn't
> > present a danger to all of them. Without that exterior threat, what
> > possible fear factor do the Night's Watch have from the wildings? A
> > chaotic, disorganized, poorly armed bunch of villagers? If I were in
> > King's Landing, I would have stopped sending anyone of any worth up
> > there as well.
>
> That would have been short-sighted but understandable. And the Watch,
> by making out that the Wildlings were a terrible danger, made it even
> easier to sneer at their claim to be the guardians of men.
>
All of which played out just as it should. Pretty much only really old
noble houses still thought of the Wall at all, and that was for people
they didn't know what else to do with. But for the relatively well-off
and younger houses, sneering was the best they could hope for. The
rest was merely apathy.
>
>
> > Overall with the appeasement going on in this book, it makes the
> > centuries-long state of war between the Wall sides seem somewhat
> > stupid and meaningless. But perhaps I am missing something.
>
> No, it IS stupid and meaningless. I think anyone who thinks otherwise
> is foolish. Lots of stupid meaningless things happen in these books.
> Just as in so-called real life.
>
Which I think is a strength of the books certainly. It just seems that
the entire Night's Watch believes in it, even the smarter ones like
the Old Bear. Never been one to understand irrational hatred though.
Ben
Ben
> On Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:03:09 -0700 (PDT), Will in New Haven
>
> >Pern. At the beginning of the series, the thread had not fallen for
> >many years and the Dragon-riders were seen as less than essential and
> >their powers and priveliges were being challenged. Obviously, there
> >are many differences between the two groups but there is that
> >similarity.
>
> I noticed this parallel as well but after three or four books Pern
> sucked.
>
hundred years old and Todd (who seems to be doing most of the writing
at this point) doesn't seem to have grasped the more appealing factors
of Pern. Sort of like the Dune books.
It seems though that the wildings were relatively accomodating to the
"monsters" other than the Others. It certainly doesn't seem that they
were making an effort to eradicate them, though perhaps like RL they
did it simply by encroaching on their territory. The southerners
certainly didn't make any impact on the beings north of the wall, as
they didn't seem to have much recent knowledge beyond where you could
see from the top of the Wall.
I think the giants would probably be the only legitimate non-Other
threat, and even most of the Night's Watch seemed to dismiss them as
old wives tales (though there must still be some around, which sort of
contradicts the earlier books claims that they killed the "last of his
kind"). And the Wall was clearly designed primarily to stop the Others
(and has worked). I am curious when (and I am pretty sure it's when,
not if) the Others get over or through the Wall how they will manage
it. Human traitor using the Horn of Joramund (the real one) is my bet.
>
>
> >> Overall with the appeasement going on in this book, it makes the
> >> centuries-long state of war between the Wall sides seem somewhat
> >> stupid and meaningless. But perhaps I am missing something.
>
> >No, it IS stupid and meaningless. I think anyone who thinks otherwise
> >is foolish. Lots of stupid meaningless things happen in these books.
> >Just as in so-called real life.
>
> For many of the wildlings, as for many of the Brothers, the antipathy
> is a blood feud. It is too highly emotionally charged for them to
> easily see reason. This is especially true for rangers and raiders
> and anyone who has lost a loved one to one or the other, but the
> wildlings are not one big family and the Night's Watch is a band of
> adopted brothers so there is some room for rational thought.
>
Yeah, I actually understand it much more from the wilding side, as
they have basically been forbidden from living a civilized life. Even
if they haven't really attempted to, it's still pretty damn harsh to
tell a whole group of people they have to live off the tundra and
dodge monsters while you are living warm and comfortable and eating
hot food. But I still struggle with the Night's Watch hatred of the
wildings. The only encounters they had were violence largely
instigated by the Watch by their aggressive intrusion into wilding
territory. Some raiders clearly did rape and pillage, but on a very
small scale else they couldn't have gotten away with it. The raiders
south of the Wall (such as Gregor's men) were far worse even before
aSoS.
I get it, irrational blood feud, but it is stupid and meaningless.
Ben
Ben
> On Tue, 19 Jul 2011 07:28:24 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
>
> >Two years (the normal delay) is a long time to wait to name your kid.
> >Also to name your kids Bump and Lump is a whole other world of
> >crackhead mom.
>
> I left out the reason. Lump's older sister called him "Lump" when he
> was still in the womb, as in "Mommy's lump."
>
impression I get of the wildings for the most part, retarded savages.
Mance probably showed them how to make fire and so was made their
King...
>
> >I kind of got the impression that Lump did not have control of things
> >all that well. It seems likely that his resentment of his healthier
> >and favored brother brought him to use the dogs, but it isn't spelled
> >out that way.
>
> He might not have been completely responsible for Bump's death. He
> was only six, after all. But he did feel very guilty about it. When
> the woods witch told his mother that Bump was now part of the trees
> and such and was watching them Lump got very nervous and guilty.
>
Yeah, I remember feeling that way. It wasn't spelled out but it is a
safe assumption.
> >I also thought it said that the oldest dog Loptail still ran up when
> >the father whistled for him, even after he had killed the other two
> >dogs. Varamyr also calls this out as the first time he died (of nine
> >times, all in other forms). Defeats the presumed notion that you
> >shouldn't be inside a critter when it dies, though apparently it
> >hurts.
>
> Loptail ran up because he was the eldest and best trained, according
> to Varamyr. He was actually fighting his instincts.
>
Changed the meaning of my statement by a typo mispell. It should have
said "I thought it sad".
>
> >Though not spelled out, this does seem to be their supposition, though
> >from the reaction the wildings give to skinchangers in the rest of
> >this book, it would seem that perhaps even if he had been a good kid
> >they still would have turned him over.
>
> It is possible they did not suspect him, but the manner of his
> discovery suggests otherwise. Perhaps they did not even blame him
> that much as he was only a six, after all, but it would be wise in any
> event to get rid of him somehow.
>
No I think they were pretty clear on the fact that he did it. My point
was that he probably would have been sent off to Haggon as soon as
they found out about his abilities. That he used them to murder his
brother wasn't the deal-breaker here it seems.
>
> Haggon pointed out that the influence between you and your animal is
> bi-directional. (Of course Haggon assumed that you would only have one
> animal, in defying this Varamyr is exceptional.) This is why Haggon
> was prejudiced against certain kinds. He thought that bonding with a
> prey animal (like a cow or goat) would make you a craven.
>
Beyond that, who the hell would want to possess a goat? Even the
bravest of all goats is still pretty damn unimpressive compared to any
number of creatures in the North. Perhaps some skinchangers didn't
have the stuff to possess a more aggressive animal.
>
> >It appeared that Varamyr was just about the best of the skinchangers
> >also, having the ability to possess six different animals. Presumably
> >this meant he had a stable working relationship with that many, the
> >ability to possess any of them at any time but also the ability to
> >control them even when not possessing them. No real explanation why
> >Varamyr would be so bitter and angry toward Haggon, though, who seems
> >to have done everything he could to teach him and essentially raised
> >him.
>
> Nothing in the text seems to explain it. The only resentment Varamyr
> seemed to carry was that his mother cried for Bump when he died, but
> not for lump when he left. It seems that his double-murder of Haggon
> was just some nasty thing he felt like doing at that moment. Somewhat
> like the murder of his brother. I think he is a bit of a psychopath
> and was just exploring his own power.
>
I think that is very fair to say, which makes him a bit one-
dimensional to me. Not like most of the "villains" in the series,
though Gregor was also unreasonably psychopathic.
>
> >Curious if he could have broken this bond. He didn't break the bond
> >with Orell (who had already died) nor Greyskin as Haggon was dead then
> >too.
>
> That's a bit unclear, but I think he recalls pushing Haggon out at one
> point, though in recollections Haggon is crying after losing Greyskin.
> Perhaps both things are true.
>
Yes, you are right, he pushed Haggon out, though it was as he was
pretty close to death so presumably his link wasn't as strong.
> >It's also curious that Varamyr did what Rayder said, as he
> >apparently didn't listen to anyone else.
>
> I suspect that if he ever discovered a way to destroy Mance Rayder
> without getting caught he would have tried it, assuming Mance was of
> no further use. Once must assume that he already tried or he would
> not have followed him. Mance had to fight everyone else.
>
Mance must have some secret power or something. All he's shown so far
is that he's rather charming and smart. Seems difficult to believe
that he could physically outfight Tormund or any of the other wilding
chiefs, though it is explicitly stated that he did.
> >We talked about Mirri Maz Durr being a hero. That kid that stabbed
> >this freak was a hero. He's probably a little blue-eyed zombie right
> >now, more power to his adorable little zombie self.
>
> I find I cannot agree. The boy had been his ally until a few hours
> before and only stabbed him for favoring the comfort of the living
> over the dead. Taking that cloak was one of the least objectionable
> things Varamyr ever did in his life. He did not know there was anyone
> around to care about the corpse.
>
No, he wasn't an ally, he was hiding in the woods after the Hornfoot
men killed his mother. Presumably he thought Varamyr was another
raider despoiling her corpse. And my point was, similar to the
erroneous points made about Mirri Maz Durr, the boy basically killed a
monster. He may not have known he was doing it, but he did it
nonetheless. Mirri basically ensured that her people would continue to
be raped and enslaved for generations to get revenge on an unborn
child for something his father did. Not heroic at all.
> >> While traveling they learned that the Weeper was gathering a host at
> >> the Bridge of Skulls to take the Shadow Tower, while someone else was
> >> calling for people to join him on his return to the valley of the
> >> Thenns. Finally a prophet named Mother Mole was calling people to
> >> follow her to the east coast where she had had visions of ships coming
> >> to save the Free Folk.
> >So was the group who went to the valley of the Thenns the same group
> >we see later? Led by Magnarr's son? Not entirely clear on this, but it
> >appears to be the case. We hear a lot about the other two groups but
> >don't actually see them, though I think it's safe to say we know what
> >the resolution is with Mother's Mole's group.
>
> No, the Thenns stay south. Whoever went north was probably dreaming
> of tales heard at the breast of the magical hidden valley of the
> Thenns. As Varamyr points out, the Thenns left for a bloody good
> reason.
>
So who was heading back to the valley of the Thenns then? This is the
only group mentioned that we don't hear about later.
>
> >Curious that he wouldn't have the wolves bring him some food. It
> >certainly seemed he would have been able to do this. Easy enough to
> >have it left close by where Thistle could find it. He said previously
> >that he would find his own meat, presumably with the help of his
> >possessed animals and he still had possession of at least one wolf.
> >Seemed foolish to not use him.
>
> There were no animals to find except for humans. Apparently he never
> ate human flesh himself, except for Haggon's heart. Disgust works.
> Clearly he was not a complete psychopath.
>
There have got to be some animals. How could tens of thousands of
humans be left alive and no animals? It didn't seem like ordering his
pack to go and hunt for him even came into his mind. I got the
impression that the wolves were eating people because they were
helpless and easy to catch. Not a major point, but it's something he
at least should have tried.
> >> =-=
>
> >> So Martin finally cleared up the rules on skin changers here. It is a
> >> form of possession and union with the target. The influence goes both
> >> ways. You feel what the target feels and will suffer greatly if it is
> >> killed. Once a creature has been possessed it will accept others more
> >> easily. Skin changers may fight over a target, taking them from each
> >> other.
>
> >Are we sure about that? Varamyr was the best of them, and he didn't do
> >it. Talked about it and took them from dead skinchangers, but never an
> >actual living one.
>
> He took Greyskin from Haggon while the latter was alive. He seemed
> certain he could take Ghost, and Mance was cautous enough to order him
> not to.
>
Yep, you're right. So you think Mance ordered him not to take Ghost
because it would have alerted the rangers? Interesting.
>
> >I actually thought Varamyr was a very non-GRRM character. He was one
> >of those "evil from birth" characters who is irrationally immoral, a
> >stereotypical villain. I am glad we didn't get to see more of him. In
> >fact, other than to give us a window into other things that were going
> >on north of the Wall and the skinchanging rules (which appear to be
> >pivotal to the rest of the series), I didn't much care for this POV.
>
> Varamyr is not even interesting as a psychopath, but everything else
> in the chapter certainly was.
>
Agreed, it was an informative chapter regarding the situation north of
the Wall.
Ben
Will in New Haven
> On Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:21:42 -0700 (PDT), Will in New Haven
>
>
>
>
>
Very true. I was thinking about wars below the Wall.
>
> I recall how the war started between the Texans and the Apaches.
> Originally the Apaches had been considered just another tribe, perhaps
> a bit more successful than others because of their horse mastery. They
> gathered in a town with the Texans one day to hammer out a treaty, and
> as a gesture of good faith they brought some white captives with them.
> One of them was a woman who admitted that the Apaches had raped her
> and the racist whites took that as an unforgiveable act of war. After
> that anything short of genocide was insufficient.
I am almost _certain_ you are talking about the Commanches. There
weren't any Apaches to speak of in Tejas, not after the Commanches
drove them out, killed them and enslaved them before the Anglos got
there. The Apaches were not great horsemen, eating horses almost as
often as riding them. And the last bit there looks like it is straight
out of a Texas Ranger history of the Commanche wars.
John Vreeland
Facepalm. I was going to tell an Apache story but I realized the
Comanche one was better. The Comanches, of course, had pushed the
Apaches out of Texas in the 18th century.
Will in New Haven
> On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:05:48 -0700 (PDT), Will in New Haven
>
>
>
"Pushed" is such a gentle word. We have glimpses of the story in
Spanish from the people on the Rio Grand Del Norte and in legends from
the surviving Lippan Appaches. But it must have been a truly
terrifying time to live.
Horses made such a difference. Several bands of Shoshone, living in
the Great Basin, get some horses and become, in a few generation, the
terrifying Comanches of the South Plains.
chris
is that he's rather charming and smart. Seems difficult to believe
that he could physically outfight Tormund or any of the other wilding
chiefs, though it is explicitly stated that he did.
spoiller
He does show some fighting skills when sparing with john in his rattleshirt
discuise and a lot of cunning/ ruthlessnessness in using the spearwives to
rescue "arya "...maybe not the stuff of kings but he is still alive and
that has to count for something
Ben
But realistically, Jon has never shown all that much martial ability.
He has regularly beaten up on peasant boys and managed to survive on
the Wall mostly through the hard work and fighting of other people. I
think any of the real fighters we have seen (presumably Ned, Robert,
Jaime, the Clegganes, Bronn, Oberyn Martell, among many others) would
kick the crap out of Jon.
Mance definitely has manipulative abilities, and clearly can fight,
but taking out Jon Snow is probably nothing to get excited about.
Beating Tormund Giantsbane (assuming Tormund isn't all BS which might
be the case) seems a rather taller order.
Ben
Taemon
> Beyond that, who the hell would want to possess a goat? Even the
> bravest of all goats is still pretty damn unimpressive compared to any
> number of creatures in the North. Perhaps some skinchangers didn't
> have the stuff to possess a more aggressive animal.
Nice choice for a first post, but why not: I think you underestimate goats.
Seriously. Do not confuse them with sheep (although wild sheep aren't
comparable with the tame fluffballs at petting zoos either). A large goat,
with big horns, could give a wolf a serious run for its money. It wouldn't
be my choice either but I'm pretty sure there's pride in goathood. Although
I do not know if Martin knows that.
T.
John Vreeland
Mountain goats are the ruggedest of individualists. And they sure can
go places. I remember seeing a photo of a goat standing on a spire of
rock barely larger on top than one of his hooves.
Ben
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 14:18:18 +0200, "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
> >Ben wrote:
>
> >> Beyond that, who the hell would want to possess a goat? Even the
> >> bravest of all goats is still pretty damn unimpressive compared to any
> >> number of creatures in the North. Perhaps some skinchangers didn't
> >> have the stuff to possess a more aggressive animal.
>
> >Nice choice for a first post, but why not: I think you underestimate goats.
> >Seriously. Do not confuse them with sheep (although wild sheep aren't
> >comparable with the tame fluffballs at petting zoos either). A large goat,
> >with big horns, could give a wolf a serious run for its money. It wouldn't
> >be my choice either but I'm pretty sure there's pride in goathood. Although
> >I do not know if Martin knows that.
>
But thinking about it from a human perspective, goat vs. wolf? goat
vs. eagle? Um, for me this isn't much of a difficult choice.
> >T.
>
> Mountain goats are the ruggedest of individualists. And they sure can
> go places. I remember seeing a photo of a goat standing on a spire of
> rock barely larger on top than one of his hooves.
>
I actually have seen Nat Geo pictures of goats that appear to be in
places impossible to reach, almost as if they were airlifted in. They
are incredibly agile and survive in very difficult circumstances.
Still....
Ben
Taemon
> Okay, I am not going to say that goats don't have their fine points.
> But thinking about it from a human perspective, goat vs. wolf? goat
> vs. eagle? Um, for me this isn't much of a difficult choice.
Well, goats are way smarter than eagles :-) I'd prefer wolves too, but I
have an affinity for them. But I don't see goats as weak, as fodder. Mind
you, I'm not talking about this:
http://petruby.com/tag/goat
but about this:
http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6192
T.
(P.S. I will gladly do a CHOW chapter, but not yet)
John Vreeland
I think for most skin-changers there is the experience of an initial
companion who is selected by accident. With Varamyr it was his
father's dogs, but not everyone has a dog when they discover their
powers. The Starks, of course, have dire wolves. Perhaps a farmer
will have goats, or cats, or somethign else. Also, not all
skin-changers can create a menagerie. It seems that some have one and
only one animal.
--
Some aspects of life would be a lot easier if Creationists were required to carry warning signs. Fortunately, many of them already do.
Ben
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 18:47:30 +0200, "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
> >Ben wrote:
>
> >Well, goats are way smarter than eagles :-) I'd prefer wolves too, but I
> >have an affinity for them. But I don't see goats as weak, as fodder. Mind
> >you, I'm not talking about this:
> >http://petruby.com/tag/goat
>
> >but about this:
> >http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6192
>
look through, goats just aint it, for me.
> I think for most skin-changers there is the experience of an initial
> companion who is selected by accident. With Varamyr it was his
> father's dogs, but not everyone has a dog when they discover their
> powers. The Starks, of course, have dire wolves. Perhaps a farmer
> will have goats, or cats, or somethign else. Also, not all
> skin-changers can create a menagerie. It seems that some have one and
> only one animal.
>
In fact it appears that nearly all skinchangers only get one.
Whatshisname had two and that seemed unusual. Bran might have more
ability than Varamyr, who appears to hold the title right now.
Ben
John Vreeland
Given that Bran is probably going to be a greenseer, I think it goes
without saying. I think that greenseers can take animals without much
thought. Maybe. Greenseers can take trees, too. And experienced
ones can take nothing at all, and look through the eyes of empty air.
Bran has already done this once, while he was unconscious from his
fall, or perhaps another greenseer showed that to him in his dreams.
Taemon
>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 18:47:30 +0200, "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl>
>> wrote:
>>> Well, goats are way smarter than eagles :-) I'd prefer wolves too,
>>> but I have an affinity for them. But I don't see goats as weak, as
>>> fodder. Mind you, I'm not talking about this:
>>> http://petruby.com/tag/goat
>>> but about this:
>>> http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6192
> Yeah, yeah, goats are great.
I got a point across! Woooh!
> Given one creature whose eyes I'd like to look through, goats just aint
> it, for me.
I never said they were.
T.
Chucky & Janica
<john.v...@ieee.org> wrote:
>We last saw Varamyr Sixskins (the POV for this chapter) crawling off
>from the battle before the Wall after Melisandre had burned his eagle
>and stunned him. I am going use the prologue to reconstruct his life
>and summarize the "rules of engagement" for skin changers.
Good stuff, nicely done.
I'm about halfway through the book now, so am going to weigh in and
hope there aren't too many spoilers in these early chapters. We talk
about the chapter as an entity, right, not about what comes later?
>So Martin finally cleared up the rules on skin changers here. It is a
>form of possession and union with the target.
We knew this much already, surely.
>The influence goes both
>ways. You feel what the target feels and will suffer greatly if it is
>killed. Once a creature has been possessed it will accept others more
>easily. Skin changers may fight over a target, taking them from each
>other.
*nod*
>When a skin changer dies he may abandon his own body and exist
>permanently in the target.
Interesting idea.
>What a humourless episode. Drab, dreary and dreadful. Grey skies and
>grey snows. Can anyone take solace in Varamyr's second life? He
>shows up again in a later chapter but it is not even clear that he has
>the ability to cause mischief. Still it is enough to make you shudder
>when you recognize him.
Yeah, that was fun, with the direwolf.
>Gore a-plenty. Varamyr's wargs tear a small family to pieces and
>gobble down their marrow. Infants are tender.
Nummy.
>Sex? Well, Thistle has a pointy nose, a flat chin and a hairy mole.
>And she is the fan service. Or you could join Varamyr while he slips
>into the wolf bitch to enjoy her being mounted by One-Eye. I need a
>shower.
Plus his hair collection and how he got it, which is nice and
tasteful. I bet Wolfspawn's going to love this book.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>Should I wait for the scraps to fall from your CHOW table? Or should I
>just scurry up and try to steal them before you CHOW the whole book?
I'm just glad there are still people passionate enough about this to
snipe at each other. I also want some scraps from the Vree table, will
sign up for something soon ... although all things considered I have
no idea when I will be able to write a CHOW.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>I also am struggling with the hatred that the Night's Watch and the
>wildings have for each other. The wildings appear to like living free
>and freezing their balls off, so why do they hate on the Brothers?
>Similarly, other than the ranger groups (who are essentially an enemy
>group gathering intel by raiding wilding villages themselves) getting
>attacked when they enter territory they shouldn't, why do the Night's
>Watch hate the wildings so much. I would feel sorry for them.
>
>Overall with the appeasement going on in this book, it makes the
>centuries-long state of war between the Wall sides seem somewhat
>stupid and meaningless. But perhaps I am missing something.
That's a good point. I got the impression that the "hatred" the
militant wildlings had for the crows was a lot of bluster at first,
and most of the normal wildlings just shook their heads and felt sort
of scornful about the "kneelers".
But then, a bunch of former crows have done some evil shit up there,
and after Mance (a crow himself) formed them up and got them moving
and got them all killed, and they really wanted to get south of the
Wall, the crows wouldn't let them and so the hatred became real.
Now, the hatred is something that comes from the wildlings having
their arses handed to them, and the crows losing a lot of men and
provisions in the process.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>> He had been born prematurely, and was called "Lump" as an infant, but
>> had grown slowly and was so weak as a baby that his mother waited
>> until he was four to give him a proper name, but by then "Lump" had
>> stuck.
>
>This gives us a good idea of the infant mortality rate in the North.
>Two years (the normal delay) is a long time to wait to name your kid.
>Also to name your kids Bump and Lump is a whole other world of
>crackhead mom.
I don't know. Our daughter was "Blob" for a while (okay, before she
was born, when she actually *was* just a blob), and one of the local
daycare kids is nicknamed Papu (Bean) because that was what they
called him before deciding on a name, and this is to the extent that
nobody really uses his actual name at all.
Of course, that's a far cry from officially calling your kid something
like that. I guess above the wall, there's no census bureau so
whatever everybody calls you, all the time, is your name.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >We talked about Mirri Maz Durr being a hero. That kid that stabbed
>> >this freak was a hero. He's probably a little blue-eyed zombie right
>> >now, more power to his adorable little zombie self.
>>
>> I find I cannot agree. �The boy had been his ally until a few hours
>> before and only stabbed him for favoring the comfort of the living
>> over the dead. �Taking that cloak was one of the least objectionable
>> things Varamyr ever did in his life. �He did not know there was anyone
>> around to care about the corpse.
>
>No, he wasn't an ally, he was hiding in the woods after the Hornfoot
>men killed his mother. Presumably he thought Varamyr was another
>raider despoiling her corpse. And my point was, similar to the
>erroneous points made about Mirri Maz Durr, the boy basically killed a
>monster. He may not have known he was doing it, but he did it
>nonetheless. Mirri basically ensured that her people would continue to
>be raped and enslaved for generations to get revenge on an unborn
>child for something his father did. Not heroic at all.
Heh, welcome to afgrrm, where they *will* defend the decency and
goodness of *any* character in this series.
C&J
John Vreeland
I do miss that weirdo. He had a way of preventing us from becoming
complacent.
John Vreeland
Always tends to be the case until enough people gain respectability,
or want it. Look at the old Roman family names: Fatso, Big Nose,
Cross-eyed, Curly Locks, (Crassus, Naso, Strabo, Caesar) etc. These
were the descendants of farmer-soldiers who themselves had no family
names but whose nick-names became frozen in time as the names of
senatorial families.
John Vreeland
Well, if I had to pick between a boy defending his mother's body and
Varamyr six-skins, I would take the boy. I was only pointing out that
the boy simply attacked without explaining himself. Varamyr was
freezing to death and found a cloak and was then savagely attacked by
a boy with a knife.
"Oh! He must have cried. Oh, the injustice!"
It only troubles me that the creepy sociopath is still around in some
form. I predict he will eventually meet Ghost again.
Chucky & Janica
<john.v...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>Plus his hair collection and how he got it, which is nice and
>>tasteful. I bet Wolfspawn's going to love this book.
>
>I do miss that weirdo. He had a way of preventing us from becoming
>complacent.
I think Ben's doing a good job of that too. And Taemon.
C&J
Taemon
Wooooh! Ahem. Sorry.
You know? I liked the book. And I'm not looking forward to having the
storylines concluded - I enjoy the journey too much to want it to end.
To be sure, I'm not a fan of the subseries-within-longer-series fantasy milk
cows... I never started Wheel of Time, for example (I'm rather grateful for
that). I review fantasy for the public library though, and my editor isn't
very fond of the genre himself and doesn't know these conventions. So the
other day I got a Raymond Feist... "part one of a trilogy". No, it isn't.
It's part 20 or something in an ongoing series.
...
I looked it up. It's part *seven-fucking-twenty*. I read ONE, back in the
day. Needless to say, I don't follow what's happening at all :-) Which, of
course, won't stop me from writing a review.
Enfin. People like that could write good books if someone locked them up in
an attic with a typewriter and a stack of paper. Or, you know, a
goosefeather and a bottle of ink. But not if you give them a word processor.
And yes, DoD does suffer from that. I can see how all the Daenerys chapters
could have brought back to two, and all the Jon chapters to three. But I
*enjoy* it so much. It is so far removed from all the tiresome fantasy
tropes. Important people actually die, where else have you read that? It
means that the danger to people feels so much more real. There are very few
actual good or evil people. His evil people are delicious. That was my
biggest problem with LotR, back when I was eleven and read it for the first
time. Tolkien's evil people were so boring. And ugly, and stupid. (Which
doesn't mean I don't love LotR, of course.)
And the fact that it sometimes doesn't go anywhere? It's just like life.
It's a true chronicle.
I hope the next one is even bigger.
T.
Chucky & Janica
>I hope the next one is even bigger.
C&J