CHOW ADWD: Jon I, A Day in the Life of a Middle Manager
Jenny Chase
Shaggydog and Nymeria are alive, and b) Summer is beyond the Wall. He
still doesn't seem to realise Bran and Rickon are alive in the normal
sense, though he does wonder if "some part of his dead brothers lived
on inside their wolves". Foreshadowing, much? It's frustrating that he
sees through Nymeria's eyes, when we're really wondering where
Shaggydog and Rickon are.
The raven and Dolorous Edd wake him up. Edd has what is clearly a
regular update: no trouble from the wildling stockades, some
stragglers coming in. Jon is worried about Mance's baby; something he
heard from the queen's men makes him think Mel intends to burn him.
Jon disapproves. He also performs his morning ablutions and skips
breakfast. That's not healthy. Neither is it particularly interesting,
but the level of detail in this chapter is presumably to fill us in on
the new routines in the Watch, the changes Jon has made and the
establishment of a new status quo at the Wall.
Lord Mormont's raven is an active participant in the conversation
("Dead, dead, dead!") And Jon thinks it's too clever by half, musing
that it ate Lord Mormont's face when he died. That raven gets an awful
lot of pagetime if it's not a plot point. The three-eyed crow watching
the Watch?
We go with Jon to his 8am board meeting (still no breakfast -
hardcore). He has some new minor characters training, and Takes an
Interest as boss. He declines a guard and thinks about how he's
shuffled his human resources around. One of Stannis' knights, Ser
Godric Farring, challenges him to a practice duel, but Jon's busy.
He runs into Sam with a letter; the northmen have not been declaring
for Stannis, except Karhold. Then he finally meets Stannis, completing
the epic journey through Castle Black begun several pages ago. More on
the letter: little Lyanna Mormont of Bear Isle says no. Why is a ten-
year-old girl speaking for Bear Isle, which has older heirs? Jon
doesn't know, I don't know. Is it a deliberate slight to Stannis or an
attempt to shift blame from the older members of the family should
Stannis win out?
Jon muses that the Karstarks are royally screwed unless Stannis wins -
they betrayed the Starks and killed some Lannisters. Hmm. This all
sounds quite convincing, and also Stannis ends up offering a Karstark
Winterfell. Do we later have a double-double cross on the Boltons by
the Karstarks? Why else do they do buggerall a few miles from the
Bolton camp for the last third of the book?
Stannis wants gold, silver or castles to appease Salladhor Saan or
reward his loyal southern lords. Jon directs him to White Harbor for
gold, but fat Ser Manderly is keeping out of the war. They bicker
awhile over Mance Rayder (Jon favours making use of him alive, as he's
the only one who can bind the wildlings together. This is a turnabout,
would Ned ever have allowed a deserter to live? Stannis is made of
less lily-livered stuff). Stannis also wants the deserted castles on
the Wall, and that Jon will not give away. Jon also gets permission to
send Gilly south with a baby, principally because Stannis and Mel are
appalled that the baby is a result of incest. (This parallels Val's
later horror about Shireen's greyscale, which Stannis and Mel accept.
This culture is not kind to victims, but even Stannis has double
standards).
Jon's offer is to have Stannis' men serve in the Watch without taking
vows. Stannis is incredulous and says Ned would have handed over the
castles, but Jon says he can't comment on this. They part cross, after
some harsh words.
Jon walks back to his tower with Melisandre, who reminds him that
Stannis suffers defiance more readily than unctuousness. This is true;
Davos' point of view from ASOS confirms that Stannis respects honest
counsel. She also proves more amenable to reason than Stannis in
matters of Mance Rayder, although she only offers to pray at this
point. And she tells him he has enemies on every side, and to beware
of daggers in the dark. It's nice to know not all these prophecies
take books to play out.
They end with a bit of random flirt ('It is always cold on the Wall'
'You think so?' 'I know so' - what are they, a couple of horny teens?)
and then she finishes with the mildly creepy, 'Then you know nothing,
Jon Snow'. Guess she's seen Ygritte in the fires then, or at least
enough to know that this will freak Jon out.
Notes:
No sex, no violence unless you count Ghost and his pack killing a
goat. Mild humour from Dolorous Edd and Sam learning to shoot. HBO are
really going to struggle with this bit unless they interleave it with
some Cersei scenes. I suppose Melisandre will probably be smoking hot
in a nonliteral sense, and there's implied sexual tension between both
her and Stannis and her and Jon.
Jon is really trying his best as Lord Commander. We can't fault him on
his actions here, really.
Stannis: I kind of like the guy. I see his point of view on most of
what he does, and dashing up to defend the Wall was a Good King thing
to do. And he takes criticism quite well ('another doomed pretender').
Except when he's trying to burn people or being prejudiced against
rape victims.
John Vreeland
<pavann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>This chapter starts with a wolf dream, confirming a) Jon knows Summer,
>Shaggydog and Nymeria are alive, and b) Summer is beyond the Wall. He
>still doesn't seem to realise Bran and Rickon are alive in the normal
>sense, though he does wonder if "some part of his dead brothers lived
>on inside their wolves". Foreshadowing, much? It's frustrating that he
>sees through Nymeria's eyes, when we're really wondering where
>Shaggydog and Rickon are.
I didn't realize that was Nymeria, but yes, definitely a
foreshadowing. He was musing over the same thing when Summer saved
him a couple of books ago, which seemed odd at the time as no one had
a clue as to how skin-changers did things, but the net book will
likely clinch it and anger Chucky, who was so hoping to see his
favorite cliche of this genre accomplished.
>The raven and Dolorous Edd wake him up. Edd has what is clearly a
>regular update: no trouble from the wildling stockades, some
>stragglers coming in. Jon is worried about Mance's baby; something he
>heard from the queen's men makes him think Mel intends to burn him.
>Jon disapproves. He also performs his morning ablutions and skips
>breakfast. That's not healthy. Neither is it particularly interesting,
>but the level of detail in this chapter is presumably to fill us in on
>the new routines in the Watch, the changes Jon has made and the
>establishment of a new status quo at the Wall.
>
>Lord Mormont's raven is an active participant in the conversation
>("Dead, dead, dead!") And Jon thinks it's too clever by half, musing
>that it ate Lord Mormont's face when he died. That raven gets an awful
>lot of pagetime if it's not a plot point. The three-eyed crow watching
>the Watch?
Well, after the Bran chapter I started to seriously wonder about that.
Is that old raven some skin-changer's second life?
>We go with Jon to his 8am board meeting (still no breakfast -
>hardcore). He has some new minor characters training, and Takes an
>Interest as boss. He declines a guard and thinks about how he's
>shuffled his human resources around. One of Stannis' knights, Ser
>Godric Farring, challenges him to a practice duel, but Jon's busy.
Farring's an ass, and a stupid one, who assumes that everyone else is
stupider than he is. His death is sure to be enjoyably
self-inflicted.
>He runs into Sam with a letter; the northmen have not been declaring
>for Stannis, except Karhold. Then he finally meets Stannis, completing
>the epic journey through Castle Black begun several pages ago. More on
>the letter: little Lyanna Mormont of Bear Isle says no. Why is a ten-
>year-old girl speaking for Bear Isle, which has older heirs? Jon
>doesn't know, I don't know. Is it a deliberate slight to Stannis or an
>attempt to shift blame from the older members of the family should
>Stannis win out?
I thought that all the other heirs were either killed or captured at
the Red Wedding (Dacy), or were sent as emissaries to the crannogmen
(Maege?). Were others left at the island? That is curious. No,
>Jon muses that the Karstarks are royally screwed unless Stannis wins -
>they betrayed the Starks and killed some Lannisters. Hmm. This all
>sounds quite convincing, and also Stannis ends up offering a Karstark
>Winterfell. Do we later have a double-double cross on the Boltons by
>the Karstarks? Why else do they do buggerall a few miles from the
>Bolton camp for the last third of the book?
Because they were waiting for Bolton to attack? Alyssa Karstark made
it pretty clear that her uncle was a villian, and with Alyssa married
to some hated foreigner who doesn't even speak the language... he
probably would have preferred Vargo Hoat as a lord. Karstark will
need Bolton to unseat Alyssa. Well, that's my take on it. Perhaps
Karstark will be taken to heel by the new lord.
I should have seen the omission in Jon's thinking, though. He
mentions the Karstark's relationship with Winterfell and the
Lannisters, but he forgets the Dreadfort. As does Stannis,
apparently, who should know better. The Boltons are a power in the
north, and by definition you must always take powers into account for
everything.
>Stannis wants gold, silver or castles to appease Salladhor Saan or
>reward his loyal southern lords. Jon directs him to White Harbor for
>gold, but fat Ser Manderly is keeping out of the war. They bicker
>awhile over Mance Rayder (Jon favours making use of him alive, as he's
>the only one who can bind the wildlings together. This is a turnabout,
>would Ned ever have allowed a deserter to live?
No. Ned was as hard as Stannis about certain things. Robert would
have made a friend of him and named him "Lord beyond the Wall."
> Stannis is made of
>less lily-livered stuff). Stannis also wants the deserted castles on
>the Wall, and that Jon will not give away. Jon also gets permission to
>send Gilly south with a baby, principally because Stannis and Mel are
>appalled that the baby is a result of incest. (This parallels Val's
>later horror about Shireen's greyscale, which Stannis and Mel accept.
>This culture is not kind to victims, but even Stannis has double
>standards).
Val's reaction is interesting but I will wait for that chapter.
>Jon's offer is to have Stannis' men serve in the Watch without taking
>vows. Stannis is incredulous and says Ned would have handed over the
>castles, but Jon says he can't comment on this. They part cross, after
>some harsh words.
So that idea failed, but later Jon managed to recycle it into another
idea.
>Jon walks back to his tower with Melisandre, who reminds him that
>Stannis suffers defiance more readily than unctuousness. This is true;
>Davos' point of view from ASOS confirms that Stannis respects honest
>counsel. She also proves more amenable to reason than Stannis in
>matters of Mance Rayder, although she only offers to pray at this
>point. And she tells him he has enemies on every side, and to beware
>of daggers in the dark. It's nice to know not all these prophecies
>take books to play out.
Nevertheless, she failed him. But not yet.
>They end with a bit of random flirt ('It is always cold on the Wall'
>'You think so?' 'I know so' - what are they, a couple of horny teens?)
>and then she finishes with the mildly creepy, 'Then you know nothing,
>Jon Snow'. Guess she's seen Ygritte in the fires then, or at least
>enough to know that this will freak Jon out.
True enough. It did not occur to me at the time that she might be
actively watching for his defense, and might have been doing so since
Stannis decided to sail for the Wall. In hindsight it makes sense.
The fires would have been showing her images of Jon Snow since that
moment, and maybe before, as Stannis himself saw the retreat from the
Fist before he realized his true destiny.
>Notes:
>No sex, no violence unless you count Ghost and his pack killing a
>goat. Mild humour from Dolorous Edd and Sam learning to shoot. HBO are
>really going to struggle with this bit unless they interleave it with
>some Cersei scenes. I suppose Melisandre will probably be smoking hot
>in a nonliteral sense, and there's implied sexual tension between both
>her and Stannis and her and Jon.
I don't understand why they took out all the lines from Gren and Pyp.
In the book they were starkly different characters with humourous
lines, but on screen they are indistinguishable nonentities. "Gren's
too stupid to be scared." "I am not."
>Jon is really trying his best as Lord Commander. We can't fault him on
>his actions here, really.
Not yet, no.
>Stannis: I kind of like the guy. I see his point of view on most of
>what he does, and dashing up to defend the Wall was a Good King thing
>to do. And he takes criticism quite well ('another doomed pretender').
>Except when he's trying to burn people or being prejudiced against
>rape victims.
He often makes implausible arguments for his position, though. Like
arguing that Ned would have given him the castles. Winter might be
coming, but it would have to be a pretty cold day in Hell.
--
My years on the mudpit that is Usnenet have taught me one important thing: three Creation Scientists can have a serious conversation, if two of them are sock puppets.
Ben
> This chapter starts with a wolf dream, confirming a) Jon knows Summer,
> Shaggydog and Nymeria are alive, and b) Summer is beyond the Wall. He
> still doesn't seem to realise Bran and Rickon are alive in the normal
> sense, though he does wonder if "some part of his dead brothers lived
> on inside their wolves". Foreshadowing, much? It's frustrating that he
> sees through Nymeria's eyes, when we're really wondering where
> Shaggydog and Rickon are.
>
could no longer sense". He clearly sense Nymeria, and knows that Lady
and Grey Wind are dead. This leaves only Summer and Shaggydog. Has he
lost touch with Shaggydog? Since we have no idea where he and Rickon
are this is a tantalizing clue.
> The raven and Dolorous Edd wake him up. Edd has what is clearly a
> regular update: no trouble from the wildling stockades, some
> stragglers coming in. Jon is worried about Mance's baby; something he
> heard from the queen's men makes him think Mel intends to burn him.
> Jon disapproves. He also performs his morning ablutions and skips
> breakfast. That's not healthy. Neither is it particularly interesting,
> but the level of detail in this chapter is presumably to fill us in on
> the new routines in the Watch, the changes Jon has made and the
> establishment of a new status quo at the Wall.
>
I too found some of the Wall routine discussion tiresome. This chapter
is the first very brief hint as to the overdone nature of most of the
book, where ten pages are written where one would serve.
> Lord Mormont's raven is an active participant in the conversation
> ("Dead, dead, dead!") And Jon thinks it's too clever by half, musing
> that it ate Lord Mormont's face when he died. That raven gets an awful
> lot of pagetime if it's not a plot point. The three-eyed crow watching
> the Watch?
>
This raven has consistently developed into a character of its own. I
think it likely it will have a significant role yet to play.
> We go with Jon to his 8am board meeting (still no breakfast -
> hardcore). He has some new minor characters training, and Takes an
> Interest as boss. He declines a guard and thinks about how he's
> shuffled his human resources around. One of Stannis' knights, Ser
> Godric Farring, challenges him to a practice duel, but Jon's busy.
>
This guy deserves a nice nasty death. I hope that the giant cub splits
his skull with a tree branch or something. "Giant-slayer" as an ironic
nickname appears to be obvious sarcasm to everyone except his noble
douche-ness. I thought it a bit sad that Jon had to send all his
friends away, the few that remained. Not usually the best policy when
surrounded by strangers and outright enemies.
> He runs into Sam with a letter; the northmen have not been declaring
> for Stannis, except Karhold. Then he finally meets Stannis, completing
> the epic journey through Castle Black begun several pages ago. More on
> the letter: little Lyanna Mormont of Bear Isle says no. Why is a ten-
> year-old girl speaking for Bear Isle, which has older heirs? Jon
> doesn't know, I don't know. Is it a deliberate slight to Stannis or an
> attempt to shift blame from the older members of the family should
> Stannis win out?
>
I think its interesting that the Karstarks have come out for Stannis.
Maybe just any port in a storm? I think it is a pity that Robb
executed Rickard to be honest. He did nothing worse than many others,
and I think this was poorly thought out. As for the Mormounts, we have
Maege, presumably still captive of the Frey/Lannisters. Dacey dead,
Jorah outcast, leaving as presumed heir the young She-Bear Alysane and
three other daughters presumably at Bear Island. Lyanna appears to be
the youngest, with Lyra and Jorelle presumably not much older else
they would have probably have come south as well.
> Jon muses that the Karstarks are royally screwed unless Stannis wins -
> they betrayed the Starks and killed some Lannisters. Hmm. This all
> sounds quite convincing, and also Stannis ends up offering a Karstark
> Winterfell. Do we later have a double-double cross on the Boltons by
> the Karstarks? Why else do they do buggerall a few miles from the
> Bolton camp for the last third of the book?
>
This remains somewhat strange, as we have differing opinions from
outside observers but nothing from the actual Karstarks themselves.
This issue is yet another unresolved plotline, and realistically
should have been in this book. The Karstarks do make sense for
Winterfell, given that they appear to be the only relatives still
present in the North and able to take up the North. But it is
debatable whether any of the other bannermen would follow them.
> Stannis wants gold, silver or castles to appease Salladhor Saan or
> reward his loyal southern lords. Jon directs him to White Harbor for
> gold, but fat Ser Manderly is keeping out of the war. They bicker
> awhile over Mance Rayder (Jon favours making use of him alive, as he's
> the only one who can bind the wildlings together. This is a turnabout,
> would Ned ever have allowed a deserter to live? Stannis is made of
> less lily-livered stuff). Stannis also wants the deserted castles on
> the Wall, and that Jon will not give away. Jon also gets permission to
> send Gilly south with a baby, principally because Stannis and Mel are
> appalled that the baby is a result of incest. (This parallels Val's
> later horror about Shireen's greyscale, which Stannis and Mel accept.
> This culture is not kind to victims, but even Stannis has double
> standards).
>
All of this is quite interesting, truthfully. The politicality of
Mance Rayder, with Stannis using him to gain the loyalty of the Watch
and also to ensure that the wildlings are unable to unify again under
his leadership. It is however quite obvious that Jon is going to have
to give up all the things that he argues against here, the castles,
the land, all of it. Were he more intelligent he would realize this
and negotiate right now while he still has a position.
> Jon's offer is to have Stannis' men serve in the Watch without taking
> vows. Stannis is incredulous and says Ned would have handed over the
> castles, but Jon says he can't comment on this. They part cross, after
> some harsh words.
>
I do think that Ned would not have given up the castles, as he
believed very strongly in the Watch. But Ned would also have called in
the North banners to assist in defending the realm, something that
Stannis does not have the ability to do. Jon might be able to if he
made the obvious choice and reclaimed Winterfell. I really don't
understand him not doing so at this point. The very thin attachment to
the vows is pretty weak at this point.
> Jon walks back to his tower with Melisandre, who reminds him that
> Stannis suffers defiance more readily than unctuousness. This is true;
> Davos' point of view from ASOS confirms that Stannis respects honest
> counsel. She also proves more amenable to reason than Stannis in
> matters of Mance Rayder, although she only offers to pray at this
> point. And she tells him he has enemies on every side, and to beware
> of daggers in the dark. It's nice to know not all these prophecies
> take books to play out.
>
One thing for Melisandre is that her visions appear to universally be
legitimate. She does tend to misread them, but she even points that
out later on in this book, which makes the UMIEL viewpoint a little
tougher to stick with. She makes harsh decisions but seems to be
looking out for more than herself.
> They end with a bit of random flirt ('It is always cold on the Wall'
> 'You think so?' 'I know so' - what are they, a couple of horny teens?)
> and then she finishes with the mildly creepy, 'Then you know nothing,
> Jon Snow'. Guess she's seen Ygritte in the fires then, or at least
> enough to know that this will freak Jon out.
>
I think that Melisandre at this point has, more than anyone, figured
out what Jon Snow is and what is going to happen later. She is
hitching onto another wagon while still riding Stannis.
> Notes:
> No sex, no violence unless you count Ghost and his pack killing a
> goat. Mild humour from Dolorous Edd and Sam learning to shoot. HBO are
> really going to struggle with this bit unless they interleave it with
> some Cersei scenes. I suppose Melisandre will probably be smoking hot
> in a nonliteral sense, and there's implied sexual tension between both
> her and Stannis and her and Jon.
>
I don't really see it as sexual tension with Stannis. Their
relationship is bizarre at the best. Stannis is another one that
appears to be asexual for the most part. She most definitely is
hitting on Jon, and he does not have the ability to figure that out.
> Jon is really trying his best as Lord Commander. We can't fault him on
> his actions here, really.
>
Eh, he's a waffler and seems to have a lot of difficulty making any
decisions. In most cases decisions are being made without him and he
is just on board. I haven't seen anything impressive from him yet.
> Stannis: I kind of like the guy. I see his point of view on most of
> what he does, and dashing up to defend the Wall was a Good King thing
> to do. And he takes criticism quite well ('another doomed pretender').
> Except when he's trying to burn people or being prejudiced against
> rape victims.
Stannis comes off a lot better in this book than he did previously. In
the end he is the only one that did the right thing by Westeros, and
does appear to be interested in doing the right thing period. No other
claimants to the throne can say that even remotely.
Ben
John Vreeland
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Aug 10, 1:09 pm, Jenny Chase <pavanne.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> This chapter starts with a wolf dream, confirming a) Jon knows Summer,
>> Shaggydog and Nymeria are alive, and b) Summer is beyond the Wall. He
>> still doesn't seem to realise Bran and Rickon are alive in the normal
>> sense, though he does wonder if "some part of his dead brothers lived
>> on inside their wolves". Foreshadowing, much? It's frustrating that he
>> sees through Nymeria's eyes, when we're really wondering where
>> Shaggydog and Rickon are.
>>
>I thought it interesting that Ghost thinks "four remain, and one he
>could no longer sense". He clearly sense Nymeria, and knows that Lady
>and Grey Wind are dead. This leaves only Summer and Shaggydog. Has he
>lost touch with Shaggydog? Since we have no idea where he and Rickon
>are this is a tantalizing clue.
It's Summer. He's beyond the Wall. You will remember that when Jon
left Summer beyond the wall he could no longer sense the wolf, at
least not until he returned somehow.
Not in this chapter. One is coming up which fills us in on a lot of
what has been going on there.
She knows he is going to be attacked. She tries to warn him; he
ignores her. I think this makes him an idiot, and I think he doesn't
have much of a future as Commander if he is going to allow himself to
be killed. Maybe in his second life he will pay her more attention.
>> Notes:
>> No sex, no violence unless you count Ghost and his pack killing a
>> goat. Mild humour from Dolorous Edd and Sam learning to shoot. HBO are
>> really going to struggle with this bit unless they interleave it with
>> some Cersei scenes. I suppose Melisandre will probably be smoking hot
>> in a nonliteral sense, and there's implied sexual tension between both
>> her and Stannis and her and Jon.
>>
>I don't really see it as sexual tension with Stannis. Their
>relationship is bizarre at the best. Stannis is another one that
>appears to be asexual for the most part. She most definitely is
>hitting on Jon, and he does not have the ability to figure that out.
In one of the earlier books it was played to make it seem that there
something sexual going on, but she was probably drawing his blood.
>> Jon is really trying his best as Lord Commander. We can't fault him on
>> his actions here, really.
>>
>Eh, he's a waffler and seems to have a lot of difficulty making any
>decisions. In most cases decisions are being made without him and he
>is just on board. I haven't seen anything impressive from him yet.
Can you give an example? He seemed pretty decisive to me.
>> Stannis: I kind of like the guy. I see his point of view on most of
>> what he does, and dashing up to defend the Wall was a Good King thing
>> to do. And he takes criticism quite well ('another doomed pretender').
>> Except when he's trying to burn people or being prejudiced against
>> rape victims.
>
>Stannis comes off a lot better in this book than he did previously. In
>the end he is the only one that did the right thing by Westeros, and
>does appear to be interested in doing the right thing period. No other
>claimants to the throne can say that even remotely.
It will be curious to see if he joins with the Targaryen. Pick one.
John Vreeland
edited here due top paragraph getting cut.
I thought that all the other heirs were either killed or captured at
the Red Wedding (Dacy), or were sent as emissaries to the crannogmen
(Maege?). Were others left at the island? That is curious. No, you
are correct. There are other girls who are unaccounted for, unless
Jon is wrong and Maege Mormont left no one behind except a
ten-year-old. Now what idiot lord would do such a thing? I hope at
least she isn't a cripple in a basket.
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Jon's offer is to have Stannis' men serve in the Watch without taking
>> vows. Stannis is incredulous and says Ned would have handed over the
>> castles, but Jon says he can't comment on this. They part cross, after
>> some harsh words.
>
>I do think that Ned would not have given up the castles, as he
>believed very strongly in the Watch. But Ned would also have called in
>the North banners to assist in defending the realm, something that
>Stannis does not have the ability to do. Jon might be able to if he
>made the obvious choice and reclaimed Winterfell. I really don't
>understand him not doing so at this point. The very thin attachment to
>the vows is pretty weak at this point.
[J] I don't see it as particularly weak. Jon has already struggled
with his vows and chosen the Watch once, there would be little sense
in him going through the same struggle again. If Jon claimed
Winterfell he would be at Stannis' beck and call, not in charge of his
own force as he is now.
C&J
Ben
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 19:05:39 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
with Ygritte if that opportunity was presented. He also early on was
ready to jump ship several times. I know the hook is that he has
discovered his love and dedication to the Watch, but what is valid
about this at this point? The Wall has more of Stannis' men on it than
Brothers. Hell, there might be more Wildings on the Wall now than
Brothers. I didn't mean that Jon was weak, he clearly is dedicated and
I get that. But his adherence to the Night's Watch to the detriment of
Westeros is foolish, very Eddard. Making the right decision morally
but the wrong one strategically is so much a Stark stereotype at this
point that I would like to see something different for a change.
The fact is that the instability of the North WILL contribute to the
Others being able to overcome the Wall. It has been made clear that in
the past when Westeros was menaced, the Starks called their banners
and fortified the Wall along with the Night's Watch, and almost
certainly substantial levies from elsewhere (the Aerie?, the
Riverlands? King's Landing even?). There will be no banner-calling now
and no support from Lannister, Arryn, or any other house that can make
a difference. The North is engaged in a nasty civil war, and the only
winners will be whoever moves in and mops up. A Stark heir would unify
them, as we can see from Bolton's efforts to legitimize their claim
with "Arya". Note that Arya is not even the recognized Stark heir.
Sansa is ahead of her in line and Jon would be as well were he
legitimized, which Stannis has the authority to do.
It would strengthen the Seven Kingdoms against the inevitable invasion
to have a unified North. This would be the right thing to save
everyone, and Jon's adherence to the Watch rules which will weaken
their ability to defend themselves against an enemy antithetical to
ALL humanity. It may not be enough to have him come out as the heir
and call the remaining banners, but it would definitely be better.
A question that comes up is why have the Lannisters not tried to use
Sansa, who appears to be the legitimate Stark heir. She has not been
offered up as a bride to anybody, we know she is alive, so why make up
an Arya heir and sell her to the Boltons? Perhaps because they know
that the Dreadfort has no real hope of taking over Winterfell? Keeping
Sansa for someone that may actually get some support? Just not sure
what use it is to keep her in the tank at this point, when the North
is more open to control than ever before.
Ben
Chucky & Janica
<pavann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Lord Mormont's raven is an active participant in the conversation
>("Dead, dead, dead!") And Jon thinks it's too clever by half, musing
>that it ate Lord Mormont's face when he died. That raven gets an awful
>lot of pagetime if it's not a plot point. The three-eyed crow watching
>the Watch?
Nah, I think it's just filler.
>Jon is really trying his best as Lord Commander. We can't fault him on
>his actions here, really.
*nod*
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<john.v...@ieee.org> wrote:
>I didn't realize that was Nymeria, but yes, definitely a
>foreshadowing. He was musing over the same thing when Summer saved
>him a couple of books ago, which seemed odd at the time as no one had
>a clue as to how skin-changers did things, but the net book will
>likely clinch it and anger Chucky, who was so hoping to see his
>favorite cliche of this genre accomplished.
Which one was this now? Why do you keep referring to how unhappy I'm
going to be? From what I'm seeing, there's nothing to make us unhappy
in this book, certainly not about Jon or anything else ... are you
referring to the Prince of Destiny plotline with the albino direwolf
and stuff? I don't get it. What clich� was going to anger me? Jon
communing with Ghost? Nymeria coming back and going nuts? Bran turning
into Summer or Hodor?
C&J
Chucky & Janica
>> The raven and Dolorous Edd wake him up. Edd has what is clearly a
>> regular update: no trouble from the wildling stockades, some
>> stragglers coming in. Jon is worried about Mance's baby; something he
>> heard from the queen's men makes him think Mel intends to burn him.
>> Jon disapproves. He also performs his morning ablutions and skips
>> breakfast. That's not healthy. Neither is it particularly interesting,
>> but the level of detail in this chapter is presumably to fill us in on
>> the new routines in the Watch, the changes Jon has made and the
>> establishment of a new status quo at the Wall.
>
>I too found some of the Wall routine discussion tiresome. This chapter
>is the first very brief hint as to the overdone nature of most of the
>book, where ten pages are written where one would serve.
It's true. In previous books / CHOWs, the chapter summary would have
to be quite long to list all the things of note that happen in the
chapters. Now, they can be summed up by "Daenerys holds court and it
looks like one of her dragons ate a kid", "Bran travels aimlessly with
Coldhands and has a homowargual experience with Hodor", "Jon sits at
the Wall and is hated by everyone except a couple of people who he
sends away".
>I thought it a bit sad that Jon had to send all his
>friends away, the few that remained. Not usually the best policy when
>surrounded by strangers and outright enemies.
Yeah, I was a bit puzzled by that. But oh well, it suits his lone wolf
image no end.
>I do think that Ned would not have given up the castles, as he
>believed very strongly in the Watch. But Ned would also have called in
>the North banners to assist in defending the realm, something that
>Stannis does not have the ability to do.
*nod* Agreed.
>Jon might be able to if he
>made the obvious choice and reclaimed Winterfell. I really don't
>understand him not doing so at this point. The very thin attachment to
>the vows is pretty weak at this point.
Seriously? It's all he has left. He's given up so much to keep his
vows at this stage, it would be beyond meaningless for him to drop
them now. And you know how it would go if he forsook his vows and
left. He'd be hated by everyone on the Wall, and everyone else in the
world as a thieving bastard turncloak who should be executed for
fleeing the Wall. Jon being legitimised by Stannis is even more
dubious than Ramsay being legitimised by Joffrey / Tommen, and Jon is
(nonsensically) about as popular as Ramsay already.
>One thing for Melisandre is that her visions appear to universally be
>legitimate. She does tend to misread them, but she even points that
>out later on in this book, which makes the UMIEL viewpoint a little
>tougher to stick with.
I'm glad she admits that she fucks up her visions from time to time,
although I haven't gotten to that bit yet. The next step in her not
being evil is to stop burning people alive and trying to kill babies.
Until then, I'm not going to find the viewpoint any tougher to stick
with at all.
>> Stannis: I kind of like the guy. I see his point of view on most of
>> what he does, and dashing up to defend the Wall was a Good King thing
>> to do. And he takes criticism quite well ('another doomed pretender').
>> Except when he's trying to burn people or being prejudiced against
>> rape victims.
>
>Stannis comes off a lot better in this book than he did previously. In
>the end he is the only one that did the right thing by Westeros, and
>does appear to be interested in doing the right thing period. No other
>claimants to the throne can say that even remotely.
Agreed on that too.
C&J
John Vreeland
<janica...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 21:05:56 -0400, John Vreeland
><john.v...@ieee.org> wrote:
>
>>I didn't realize that was Nymeria, but yes, definitely a
>>foreshadowing. He was musing over the same thing when Summer saved
>>him a couple of books ago, which seemed odd at the time as no one had
>>a clue as to how skin-changers did things, but the net book will
>>likely clinch it and anger Chucky, who was so hoping to see his
>>favorite cliche of this genre accomplished.
>
>Which one was this now? Why do you keep referring to how unhappy I'm
>going to be? From what I'm seeing, there's nothing to make us unhappy
>in this book, certainly not about Jon or anything else ... are you
>referring to the Prince of Destiny plotline with the albino direwolf
>and stuff? I don't get it. What cliché was going to anger me? Jon
>communing with Ghost? Nymeria coming back and going nuts? Bran turning
>into Summer or Hodor?
Of course you aren't going to be angry. I was referring to the "hidden
prince" device.
--
Some aspects of life would be a lot easier if Creationists were required to carry warning signs. Fortunately, many of them already do.
Ben
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 19:05:39 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
>
> >is the first very brief hint as to the overdone nature of most of the
> >book, where ten pages are written where one would serve.
>
> It's true. In previous books / CHOWs, the chapter summary would have
> to be quite long to list all the things of note that happen in the
> chapters. Now, they can be summed up by "Daenerys holds court and it
> looks like one of her dragons ate a kid", "Bran travels aimlessly with
> Coldhands and has a homowargual experience with Hodor", "Jon sits at
> the Wall and is hated by everyone except a couple of people who he
> sends away".
>
action.
> >I thought it a bit sad that Jon had to send all his
> >friends away, the few that remained. Not usually the best policy when
> >surrounded by strangers and outright enemies.
>
> Yeah, I was a bit puzzled by that. But oh well, it suits his lone wolf
> image no end.
>
Sure, can't have angst with your buddies all around you cheering you
up.
>
> >Jon might be able to if he
> >made the obvious choice and reclaimed Winterfell. I really don't
> >understand him not doing so at this point. The very thin attachment to
> >the vows is pretty weak at this point.
>
> Seriously? It's all he has left. He's given up so much to keep his
> vows at this stage, it would be beyond meaningless for him to drop
> them now. And you know how it would go if he forsook his vows and
> left. He'd be hated by everyone on the Wall, and everyone else in the
> world as a thieving bastard turncloak who should be executed for
> fleeing the Wall. Jon being legitimised by Stannis is even more
> dubious than Ramsay being legitimised by Joffrey / Tommen, and Jon is
> (nonsensically) about as popular as Ramsay already.
>
Okay, I understand what you are saying, but Jon is holding on to the
vows for the wrong reasons, Stark reasons. I am going to draw a line
in the sand and won't go any further. I will allow that adherence to
threaten the realm when I know that zombies and scary-ass Others are
planning to end all life as we nkow it. But at the end of the day I
kept my fucking vow.
I do agree that his claim to the Stark lands would be tenuous, but at
this point any claim would be better than none. The North is clearly
the pivotal defense against the Others, who presumably would roll like
a tide over the soft Southlands (up until Dorne, presumably). Everyone
knows this, but the northerners are completely disunified. Having a
Stark heir would heal a lot of this, and strengthen Stannis's ability
to defend the world. At this point that should be the absolute
priority. Only Stannis seems to understand this.
> >One thing for Melisandre is that her visions appear to universally be
> >legitimate. She does tend to misread them, but she even points that
> >out later on in this book, which makes the UMIEL viewpoint a little
> >tougher to stick with.
>
> I'm glad she admits that she fucks up her visions from time to time,
> although I haven't gotten to that bit yet. The next step in her not
> being evil is to stop burning people alive and trying to kill babies.
> Until then, I'm not going to find the viewpoint any tougher to stick
> with at all.
>
Well she did some of that in this book and tried to do more. I think
she isn't evil as much as absolutely amoral. She believes in the ends,
and that justifies whatever crazy shit she does that make them happen,
in her mind.
Ben
Chucky & Janica
<john.v...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>I didn't realize that was Nymeria, but yes, definitely a
>>>foreshadowing. He was musing over the same thing when Summer saved
>>>him a couple of books ago, which seemed odd at the time as no one had
>>>a clue as to how skin-changers did things, but the net book will
>>>likely clinch it and anger Chucky, who was so hoping to see his
>>>favorite cliche of this genre accomplished.
>>
>>Which one was this now? Why do you keep referring to how unhappy I'm
>>going to be? From what I'm seeing, there's nothing to make us unhappy
>>in this book, certainly not about Jon or anything else ... are you
>>referring to the Prince of Destiny plotline with the albino direwolf
>>and stuff? I don't get it. What cliché was going to anger me? Jon
>>communing with Ghost? Nymeria coming back and going nuts? Bran turning
>>into Summer or Hodor?
>
>Of course you aren't going to be angry. I was referring to the "hidden
>prince" device.
Oh, so you were being reverse-sarcastic in some way. Too complicated
for me, man, I've been away for weeks.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>> [J] I don't see it as particularly weak. Jon has already struggled
>> with his vows and chosen the Watch once, there would be little sense
>> in him going through the same struggle again. If Jon claimed
>> Winterfell he would be at Stannis' beck and call, not in charge of his
>> own force as he is now.
>
>Not really, Jon would definitely have bailed out on the watch to be
>with Ygritte if that opportunity was presented.
You think so? I don't know, maybe he would have with love on the line.
He almost ran away right at the start but honour brought him back, and
I don't think anything much that happened since tempted him to turn
his back on his vows.
>He also early on was
>ready to jump ship several times.
Several times - well, at least twice - and always came back.
>I know the hook is that he has
>discovered his love and dedication to the Watch, but what is valid
>about this at this point?
Valid? How do you mean? It's as valid as it always was, and reinforced
in a trial of fire to boot. His vows have been tested and held true.
It would be breaking them now that would be a pointless waste.
Admittedly, his temptations (join Robb, join Mance, join Ygritte,
become Lord Stark, save Arya) get stronger and stronger as he turns
his back on them each time, but he's never going to do much good in
those positions and each time he almost breaks his vows it makes it a
greater betrayal and waste to do so the next time. Not that this is a
reason to throw good money after bad, so to speak, but he's learned
from the example of Maester Aemon, who watched his entire family
perish. Jon's done much the same.
>The Wall has more of Stannis' men on it than
>Brothers. Hell, there might be more Wildings on the Wall now than
>Brothers.
Not sure what this has to do with the strength of Jon's vows.
>I didn't mean that Jon was weak, he clearly is dedicated and
>I get that.
*nod*
>But his adherence to the Night's Watch to the detriment of
>Westeros is foolish, very Eddard. Making the right decision morally
>but the wrong one strategically is so much a Stark stereotype at this
>point that I would like to see something different for a change.
Well, it's a bit refreshing to see that the "evil blooded" bastard is
the most Stark of them all, when all's said and done. And I don't know
that Jon standing aside is "to the detriment of Westeros". What's he
going to do, beside gain himself a name as a turncloak with ... well,
just about everybody in the world, except possibly Stannis, whose
opinion is roughly on a value with a wooden three-dollar coin right
now.
>The fact is that the instability of the North WILL contribute to the
>Others being able to overcome the Wall.
I don't know that Jon would help stabilise the North. Stannis will
manage that if Jon was ever going to, and might even be able to put a
Stark into Winterfell (rather than a Snow [keeping in mind I haven't
read to the resolution, if any, of that thread yet]) as well as
sending more men to the Wall. Jon wouldn't really have managed that,
by breaking his vows.
I do wonder why Stannis hanged all the Ironmen instead of seeing if
any wanted to go to the Wall instead. Maybe none did, or would have
been more trouble than they were worth there?
>It has been made clear that in
>the past when Westeros was menaced, the Starks called their banners
>and fortified the Wall along with the Night's Watch, and almost
>certainly substantial levies from elsewhere (the Aerie?, the
>Riverlands? King's Landing even?). There will be no banner-calling now
>and no support from Lannister, Arryn, or any other house that can make
>a difference.
None of which would have happened with Jon in command either.
>The North is engaged in a nasty civil war, and the only
>winners will be whoever moves in and mops up. A Stark heir would unify
>them, as we can see from Bolton's efforts to legitimize their claim
>with "Arya". Note that Arya is not even the recognized Stark heir.
>Sansa is ahead of her in line and Jon would be as well were he
>legitimized, which Stannis has the authority to do.
Yeah, but I see huge problems with a "legitimate" Jon Snow. Like I
said, Ramsay Bolton is considered dubious even though he was
legitimised by a king with at least a little more credibility or power
than Stannis, although admittedly Ramsay is a creature.
I just don't see him being a unifying figure for the North,
considering the backward ideas they have about bastards in this world.
Albeit somewhat backed up by historical precedent.
>It would strengthen the Seven Kingdoms against the inevitable invasion
>to have a unified North.
A nuke or two might be good too, while we're wishing.
>This would be the right thing to save
>everyone, and Jon's adherence to the Watch rules which will weaken
>their ability to defend themselves against an enemy antithetical to
>ALL humanity. It may not be enough to have him come out as the heir
>and call the remaining banners, but it would definitely be better.
Jon's making himself a leader on the Wall. The Wall is *his*. This
wouldn't work out for him in any other position, and he'd be turning
his back on extremely hard-won vows as well.
I can't see a better place for him, and I can't see anything short of
a full-on zombie apocalypse making anyone south of Winterfell care
about the Wall or the Watch. Except Stannis, who is a kook.
>A question that comes up is why have the Lannisters not tried to use
>Sansa, who appears to be the legitimate Stark heir. She has not been
>offered up as a bride to anybody, we know she is alive, so why make up
>an Arya heir and sell her to the Boltons?
I was pretty sure the Lannisters had no idea Sansa was around anymore.
Littlefinger spirited her out of King's Landing and renamed her Alayne
Stone, and is grooming her for totally non-creepy reasons of his own,
but did he tell the Lannisters he had her? I don't remember that.
Maybe it comes later in this book and I haven't gotten to it yet
(addendum: Janica says there isn't).
Unless of course you're wondering why the Lannisters don't just take a
leaf out of the Boltons's book and put a wig on a donkey and say "this
is Sansa Stark". Because let's face it, who could tell the difference?
>Perhaps because they know
>that the Dreadfort has no real hope of taking over Winterfell? Keeping
>Sansa for someone that may actually get some support? Just not sure
>what use it is to keep her in the tank at this point, when the North
>is more open to control than ever before.
Would have to look more into the Sansa situation before commenting
further. I was under the impression that Littlefinger had disappeared
Sansa for his own reasons that had nothing to do with the Lannisters -
although certainly something to do with Winterfell, so you're right
there.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >I thought it a bit sad that Jon had to send all his
>> >friends away, the few that remained. Not usually the best policy when
>> >surrounded by strangers and outright enemies.
>>
>> Yeah, I was a bit puzzled by that. But oh well, it suits his lone wolf
>> image no end.
>
>Sure, can't have angst with your buddies all around you cheering you
>up.
Heh, now I'm picturing him as Mister Furious from "Mystery Men".
>> >Jon might be able to if he
>> >made the obvious choice and reclaimed Winterfell. I really don't
>> >understand him not doing so at this point. The very thin attachment to
>> >the vows is pretty weak at this point.
>>
>> Seriously? It's all he has left. He's given up so much to keep his
>> vows at this stage, it would be beyond meaningless for him to drop
>> them now. And you know how it would go if he forsook his vows and
>> left. He'd be hated by everyone on the Wall, and everyone else in the
>> world as a thieving bastard turncloak who should be executed for
>> fleeing the Wall. Jon being legitimised by Stannis is even more
>> dubious than Ramsay being legitimised by Joffrey / Tommen, and Jon is
>> (nonsensically) about as popular as Ramsay already.
>>
>Okay, I understand what you are saying, but Jon is holding on to the
>vows for the wrong reasons, Stark reasons.
The wrong reasons, perhaps. Or at least, they'd be the right reasons
in a perfect Stark world where everyone is honourable. In the real
world, they may turn out to be impractical or dangerous.
But that's the way he rolls. I didn't say it was the smartest thing
for him to do - although I can't see many other options that would
give his situation a more positive outlook. Certainly not declaring
himself a Stark and trying to take over Winterfell and regain the
support of all the Stark bannermen. That would be a clusterfuck with
icicles instead of penises.
>I am going to draw a line
>in the sand and won't go any further. I will allow that adherence to
>threaten the realm when I know that zombies and scary-ass Others are
>planning to end all life as we nkow it. But at the end of the day I
>kept my fucking vow.
*nod*
Sounds like Jon. But I don't think this dooms him, or the world, any
more than Melisandre failing to kill a bunch of kids and babies doomed
the world. And I would be bitterly let down if Jon turned his back on
his vows after all this angsting. It would be like the thousands of
pages of suffering we've gone through to get here had no meaning.
>I do agree that his claim to the Stark lands would be tenuous, but at
>this point any claim would be better than none.
Can't argue with that, by the time you get to a bannerman's bastard
son marrying the fourth-born daughter who is actually an impostor,
you're on pretty shaky ground.
>The North is clearly
>the pivotal defense against the Others, who presumably would roll like
>a tide over the soft Southlands (up until Dorne, presumably). Everyone
>knows this, but the northerners are completely disunified. Having a
>Stark heir would heal a lot of this, and strengthen Stannis's ability
>to defend the world. At this point that should be the absolute
>priority. Only Stannis seems to understand this.
Yep. I'm just dubious about Jon being any sort of solution. I'll agree
with you that he was the best and only solution Stannis had to hand.
It's also possible that Stannis was hoping Jon would take the bait,
declare himself King in the North, and then they'd be able to burn him
to get massive power-ups.
>> >One thing for Melisandre is that her visions appear to universally be
>> >legitimate. She does tend to misread them, but she even points that
>> >out later on in this book, which makes the UMIEL viewpoint a little
>> >tougher to stick with.
>>
>> I'm glad she admits that she fucks up her visions from time to time,
>> although I haven't gotten to that bit yet. The next step in her not
>> being evil is to stop burning people alive and trying to kill babies.
>> Until then, I'm not going to find the viewpoint any tougher to stick
>> with at all.
>
>Well she did some of that in this book and tried to do more. I think
>she isn't evil as much as absolutely amoral. She believes in the ends,
>and that justifies whatever crazy shit she does that make them happen,
>in her mind.
Well we seem to be quibbling over terminology. Although I will say
that one thing this book has done quite nicely is add some dimension
to some of these characters (Roose, Melisandre) that we thought were
just creeps, and made them a lot more interesting.
Still evil, though. *digs in heels*
C&J
John Vreeland
Since when has that ever been a problem? Yorren was bringing them
Rorge, Biter, and a faceless man.
Are you saying he is a kook because he cares?
>>A question that comes up is why have the Lannisters not tried to use
>>Sansa, who appears to be the legitimate Stark heir. She has not been
>>offered up as a bride to anybody, we know she is alive, so why make up
>>an Arya heir and sell her to the Boltons?
>
>I was pretty sure the Lannisters had no idea Sansa was around anymore.
>Littlefinger spirited her out of King's Landing and renamed her Alayne
>Stone, and is grooming her for totally non-creepy reasons of his own,
>but did he tell the Lannisters he had her? I don't remember that.
>Maybe it comes later in this book and I haven't gotten to it yet
>(addendum: Janica says there isn't).
>
>Unless of course you're wondering why the Lannisters don't just take a
>leaf out of the Boltons's book and put a wig on a donkey and say "this
>is Sansa Stark". Because let's face it, who could tell the difference?
Everyone at court. Nobody knew Arya, and the number of people is
shrinking to almost nil. I think it is only Theon Greyjoy, Jane Poole
and Rickon and Sansa Stark who knew her well enough to recognise her.
And perhaps Syrio Forel, if he lives. Others have seen her,
perhaps--the Queen, Littlefinger, Varys, etc.--but none of them knew
her.
>>Perhaps because they know
>>that the Dreadfort has no real hope of taking over Winterfell? Keeping
>>Sansa for someone that may actually get some support? Just not sure
>>what use it is to keep her in the tank at this point, when the North
>>is more open to control than ever before.
>
>Would have to look more into the Sansa situation before commenting
>further. I was under the impression that Littlefinger had disappeared
>Sansa for his own reasons that had nothing to do with the Lannisters -
>although certainly something to do with Winterfell, so you're right
>there.
And what does he have planned for Harry the Heir? Probably, death.
Perhaps while trying to retake Winterfell.
John Vreeland
I have always believed that "the ends justify the means" is an
inherently evil aphorism, insomuch as it is always used to justify the
most objectionable deeds. In the middle ages it was a favorite of
Martin Luther and the Catholics, while they were beating on their
fellow christians or upon the Jews, for whom Luther had an especially
powerful distaste.
John Vreeland
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Aug 30, 2:51 am, Chucky & Janica <janica.hin...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 19:05:39 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>Agreed, like conversations with my wife. Lots of words and very little
>action.
"A little less conversation; a lot more action please."--E. Presley
Chucky & Janica
<john.v...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>I do wonder why Stannis hanged all the Ironmen instead of seeing if
>>any wanted to go to the Wall instead. Maybe none did, or would have
>>been more trouble than they were worth there?
>
>Since when has that ever been a problem? Yorren was bringing them
>Rorge, Biter, and a faceless man.
it did after the decline of the good old days.
>>Jon's making himself a leader on the Wall. The Wall is *his*. This
>>wouldn't work out for him in any other position, and he'd be turning
>>his back on extremely hard-won vows as well.
>>
>>I can't see a better place for him, and I can't see anything short of
>>a full-on zombie apocalypse making anyone south of Winterfell care
>>about the Wall or the Watch. Except Stannis, who is a kook.
>
>Are you saying he is a kook because he cares?
causation.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<john.v...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>Well we seem to be quibbling over terminology. Although I will say
>>that one thing this book has done quite nicely is add some dimension
>>to some of these characters (Roose, Melisandre) that we thought were
>>just creeps, and made them a lot more interesting.
>>
>>Still evil, though. *digs in heels*
>
>I have always believed that "the ends justify the means" is an
>inherently evil aphorism, insomuch as it is always used to justify the
>most objectionable deeds. In the middle ages it was a favorite of
>Martin Luther and the Catholics, while they were beating on their
>fellow christians or upon the Jews, for whom Luther had an especially
>powerful distaste.
C&J
John Vreeland
At least as much as he cares about being a king. The North and the
Wall have given him a raison d'etre. Before he was just a bitter
contender for a throne with more theoretical legal rights and less
actual power to accomplish it. Now he is more like a king of legend,
saving the realm from a terrible evil.
Why is he a kook? Because he rettreated to Dragonstone when the storm
was coming and made a list of his enemies? That is over and done. Is
it because he carries a glamoured sword? I don't think he gives a
Tinker's cuss for that nonsense. He knows what Melisandre is worth.
Stannis sometimes rants like a loony tyrant but he rarely means it. As
Melisandre says, it is his silences you should fear.